Dean Winchester: aka Squirrel

[catrox14]

14 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

In my defense, I've only seen Empire Strikes Back once, and it was when it came out :O , but that's such an iconic line, I should've twigged anyway! *pets Dean* Sorry, buddy.

[ahrtee]

26 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

In my defense, I've only seen Empire Strikes Back once, and it was when it came out :O , but that's such an iconic line, I should've twigged anyway! *pets Dean* Sorry, buddy.

It's all right.  I'm 100% sure Charlie knew what it was, and that Dean wasn't being a jerk.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

It's all right.  I'm 100% sure Charlie knew what it was, and that Dean wasn't being a jerk.

Yes! It was actually seeing Charlie's reaction in the video that made it click for me. She totally knew (and appreciated)!!

[MysteryGuest]

Charlie and her co-worker had used that same exchange the first time we meet her in The Girl With the Dungeons and Dragons Tattoo.  So she absolutely would have recognized what it was from.

[catrox14]

24 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Charlie and her co-worker had used that same exchange the first time we meet her in The Girl With the Dungeons and Dragons Tattoo.  So she absolutely would have recognized what it was from.

You know...I was thinking she had that exchange but I was thinking it was with Dean when he was helping her get past the security guard. At least I know I wasn't crazy that Charlie had that exchange with someone! LOL

[Katy M]

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

You know...I was thinking she had that exchange but I was thinking it was with Dean when he was helping her get past the security guard. At least I know I wasn't crazy that Charlie had that exchange with someone! LOL

She also had that exchange with one of her "knights" in LARP and the Real Girl.

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, Katy M said:

She also had that exchange with one of her "knights" in LARP and the Real Girl.

That's right! I forgot about that. 

[Wayward Son]

23 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Personally, I have no problem with Dean`s decision to stay and I agree that he made it because of his reasons. I loathe the fanfic trope where Dean follows Sam to Stanford like some loyal dog - and of course gets to be a mechanic because that is the only career ever assigned to Dean in those stories, and not even a successful one, nope, the lowest of the low to showcase how Sam gets to be super-successful - and I also don`t think Dean`s life should revolve around Sam. 

I'm not sure that the author of the fanfic's intention is to belittle Dean by making him a mechanic in these non-hunting scenarios. Personally, I would imagine Dean thriving best in jobs such as a mechanic (because of his absolute love of cars), construction work / a trade or even a bartender. My reason for thinking along these lines has nothing to do with my views on Dean's intelligence, but my views on his interests. IMO Dean most enjoys doing things which are hands on (hence mechanic or another trade) or involve interaction with other people. Whereas I think Dean would feel constricted in an office environment or other jobs with high levels of paper work. 

 

Admittedly, I'm not the most Dean centric of fans, so I've perhaps got a wrong reading of him. What would you imagine would be the best job for Dean in a scenario where he chose to no longer hunt for some reason?  

Edited July 30, 2017 by Wayward Son

[ILoveReading]

4 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I'm not sure that the author of the fanfic's intention is to belittle Dean by making him a mechanic in these non-hunting scenarios. Personally, I would imagine Dean thriving best in jobs such as a mechanic (because of his absolute love of cars), construction work / a trade or even a bartender. My reason for thinking along these lines has nothing to do with my views on Dean's intelligence, but my views on his interests. IMO Dean most enjoys doing things which are hands on (hence mechanic or another trade) or involve interaction with other people. Whereas I think Dean would feel constricted in an office environment or other jobs with high levels of paper work. 

 

Admittedly, I'm not the most Dean centric of fans, so I've perhaps got a wrong reading of him. What would you imagine would be the best job for Dean in a scenario where he chose to no longer hunt for some reason?  

There is nothing wrong with being a mechanic, but in many fan fics I've read, there is a tendency to have Dean only have a job because Bobby gave him one, rather than Dean doing it on his own. 

If Dean's circumstances were different, I could easily see Dean as an engineer.  He's intelligent, and good with his hands.  You have to have some basic knowledge of math and physics to make some of Dean's gadget. 

I could also see him in a profession that helps people, like a fire fighter, cop or solider.  Since I think Dean makes a good mentor for young hunters, I could also see him as a teacher. 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I'm not sure that the author of the fanfic's intention is to belittle Dean by making him a mechanic in these non-hunting scenarios. 

My problem is that it is pretty much the only thing he ever gets to be. Even in AU scenarios, somehow he ends up a mechanic working in either John or Bobby`s garage and never makes anything of himself. 

Sure, Sam often gets to be a lawyer but there is a lot more variation authors seem to imagine for him. Whereas with Dean it`s very clichéd, he works a menial job to support Sam. No intelligence or aspirations or anything of his own. And that is 95 % of fanfics out there. I think those takes their cues from the show, believing in the most simplistic version of "dumb muscle who revolves around Sam". 

Quote

If Dean's circumstances were different, I could easily see Dean as an engineer.  He's intelligent, and good with his hands.  You have to have some basic knowledge of math and physics to make some of Dean's gadget. 

I could also see him in a profession that helps people, like a fire fighter, cop or solider.  Since I think Dean makes a good mentor for young hunters, I could also see him as a teacher. 

 I agree those are interesting choices that I could totally see. He also thrived as a P.A. on the film set. Especially if it`s a total AU scenario, then the sky should be the limit.   

[ILoveReading]

9 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

then the sky should be the limit.   

I agree.  We saw in Bad Boys that Dean was thriving.  So Sam isn't the be all and the end all for Dean.

I have a head canon with Dean, and hunting. 

From Blood Lust
 

Quote

 

DEAN
... So. I pick up this crossbow. And I hit that ugly sucker with a silver-tipped arrow right in his heart. Sammy's waiting in the car, and uh, me and my dad take the thing into the woods, burn it to a crisp. I'm sitting there and looking into the fire, and I'm thinking to myself, I'm sixteen years old. Most kids my age are worried about pimples, prom dates. I'm seeing things that they'll never even know. Never even dream of. So right then, I just sort of -
 

GORDON
Embraced the life?
 

DEAN
Yeah.

 

In Bad Boys, John picks up a 16 year old Dean to go work a job.  My head canon was that the job Dean told Gordon about.  Because of his experiences at Sonny's and Dean knowing that being with his family is the most important thing, and that he probably didn't have many other options, that line of thinking from Dean would make sense. 

[Jeddah]

9 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

My problem is that it is pretty much the only thing he ever gets to be. Even in AU scenarios, somehow he ends up a mechanic working in either John or Bobby`s garage and never makes anything of himself. 

Sure, Sam often gets to be a lawyer but there is a lot more variation authors seem to imagine for him. Whereas with Dean it`s very clichéd, he works a menial job to support Sam. No intelligence or aspirations or anything of his own. And that is 95 % of fanfics out there. I think those takes their cues from the show, believing in the most simplistic version of "dumb muscle who revolves around Sam". 

 I agree those are interesting choices that I could totally see. He also thrived as a P.A. on the film set. Especially if it`s a total AU scenario, then the sky should be the limit.   

I certainly don't consider being a mechanic a "menial" job. Do you really think mechanics don't have "intelligence or aspirations"? Being a mechanic is a very skilled job, and it's a skill we know Dean has. 

Kripke has said over and over again he wanted this show to celebrate Blue-collar America. There's nothing wrong with Blue-collar jobs.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I certainly don't consider being a mechanic a "menial" job. Do you really think mechanics don't have "intelligence or aspirations"? Being a mechanic is a very skilled job, and it's a skill we know Dean has. 

I`m saying that is how those fanfics are displaying him. Of course mechanics can have intelligence and aspirations. They can build up very successful buisnesses for themselves. But those things do not happen in the stories I speak of. In those Dean is basically a troglodyte who can swing a wrench - to later give the money he makes to Sam. Who is on his way to becoming president. It`s the most simplistic clichés ever.

What Kripke has said and how the show has treated the blue collar world are IMO two different things. Singer himself made the "brain and brawn" comment about the brothers with Dean being the brawn. The way his intelligence or skills or aspirations are treated on the show, that`s why those fanfics are like they are. Simplistic clichés. 

[Jeddah]

15 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

They can build up very successful buisnesses for themselves. But those things do not happen in the stories I speak of.

I think a mechanic who doesn't have his own business is still doing an important, highly skilled job. 

Edited July 30, 2017 by Jeddah

[Wayward Son]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

There is nothing wrong with being a mechanic, but in many fan fics I've read, there is a tendency to have Dean only have a job because Bobby gave him one, rather than Dean doing it on his own.

I can see why that might be taken as a slight by fans such as yourself and @Aeryn13. However, based on the fanfics I've read I don't believe this to be the case. IMO the authors intention is not to belittle Dean, but to try and reinvent the surrogate father/son relationship between Dean and Bobby. Since in most of the non-hunting fics I've read it's usually a case of bad father John neglects Dean and Bobby gives him a chance where no one else would have. So I usually find the bashing is against John, who actually seemed like a pretty great guy prior to Mary's death driving him into revenge, for the case of creating a Bobby / Dean bond. However, like I said, I can see why some fans might be uncomfortable with such a set up and how it presents Dean :) 

 

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

If Dean's circumstances were different, I could easily see Dean as an engineer.  He's intelligent, and good with his hands.  You have to have some basic knowledge of math and physics to make some of Dean's gadget. 

I could also see him in a profession that helps people, like a fire fighter, cop or solider.  Since I think Dean makes a good mentor for young hunters, I could also see him as a teacher. 

Ooh an engineer is definitely a good potential job at Dean, and I totally agree it is one I could see him excelling at :) . I also agree with the fire fighter, cop or soldier.

 

I'm not so sure about teaching, especially if it were older kids / teens. I'm not sure Dean would have the patience for dealing with bratty kids, many of whom tend to treat their teachers with disdain. 

[catrox14]

Obviously, mechanics are intelligent and skilled. That's not in question. I understand @Aeryn13's frustration. The problem that I read in SO MANY fanfiction AU stories (which is why I stopped reading a lot of fanfiction)  is that Dean becomes a mechanic not for love of cars or because he wants to run a highly successful business, but because he is portrayed as INCAPABLE of any other choices in life because he is a raging alcoholic who can't hold any jobs but some nice mechanic in town takes pity on him.

Since it's AU stories, an author can give Dean a career that is based on his functional rather than dysfunctional aspects, They could choose to take the enginerd that lives in Dean and place him at Berkeley and let him become a literal rocket scientist.  That puts him in close proximity to Sam at Stanford to keep their connection at play.

[DittyDotDot]

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

My problem is that it is pretty much the only thing he ever gets to be. Even in AU scenarios, somehow he ends up a mechanic working in either John or Bobby`s garage and never makes anything of himself. 

And this is why I tend to stay away from fan fic, I guess ;)

I don't know, I think most mechanics are making something of themselves and I'd choose being a mechanic over being a lawyer any day. I think being a lawyer would be mostly shuffling paperwork and settling petty little disputes--which, I think sounds incredibly tedious and boring. Being a mechanic requires skill and intelligence like any other profession and I like to know how things work and I like to work with my hands. It's not like being a lawyer automatically means one is successful while being a mechanic means you're not. 

2 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

What would you imagine would be the best job for Dean in a scenario where he chose to no longer hunt for some reason?  

While I think Dean could do anything, I've always pictured him as either a cop or firefighter simply because of his ingrained protect and serve mentality. I think he would be a brilliant engineer, but I don't actually imagine him being happy doing that. Too much desk time and not enough time actually doing, if you know what I mean. And, I think he'd eventually get bored with the job--and with most jobs--because of the structure and nature of working a regular job is repetition and not always very challenging.

TBH, I really can't see Dean being happy long term doing anything but hunting. It has all the things Dean likes: there's the puzzles and mysteries to solve to engage and challenge him mentally; being active which challenges him physically; helping and saving people; and most of all, I think he likes being an outsider which in most other professions he'd have to stiffle while on the job. 

Edited July 30, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

Dean has been shown to be absolutely good with kids. Dean doesn't care if kids are brats to him. Look at Todd and Krissy. Dean relates to kids on their own level 90% of the time and he rarely lets them think they don't matter, which is what makes for a successful teacher IMO. Todd yelled at him and Dean still helped him stand up to bullies. Dean helped Ben stand up to bullies. Dean helped Timmy stand up to bullies and his own ghost mother. Krissy was a snot and tried to fool Dean and he shut that shit down quickly. He never takes a child's bratty behavior personally that I have seen.

IMO good teachers should and do discipline students in classrooms especially when they are being rude and disruptive for other students who are not behaving badly. And then sit with the disruptive student after class and impart wisdom and lessons.

So to me Dean would be a great teacher.

Edited July 30, 2017 by catrox14

[CluelessDrifter]

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I agree.  We saw in Bad Boys that Dean was thriving.  So Sam isn't the be all and the end all for Dean.

I have a head canon with Dean, and hunting. 

From Blood Lust
 

In Bad Boys, John picks up a 16 year old Dean to go work a job.  My head canon was that the job Dean told Gordon about.  Because of his experiences at Sonny's and Dean knowing that being with his family is the most important thing, and that he probably didn't have many other options, that line of thinking from Dean would make sense. 

Wow.  This is totally my head canon too.  In fact, I said something quite similar in a different thread without having read this . . . I mean it's pretty much the exact same thing, except mine was too wordy, and I don't think it was right after he was at Sonny's, but not long after.  

Edited July 30, 2017 by CluelessDrifter

[rue721]

I don't read fanfic, so I don't really have a take on how fanfic writers as a whole depict Dean's career choices. But in general, he seems like he'd be a really good employee (conscientious and responsible) and would be especially good at running a business (assertive, lots of soft skills, and analytical), so I think he could do basically anything if he wanted.

I worked in a restaurants for a long time, and it always stood out to me what a good server he would be. I wrote some overly detailed post on it at one point. But I didn't think that because that job is "menial" and working it shows "no intelligence or aspirations." Gah! That's a pretty horrible way to put it. You know that you're talking about jobs that millions of people do, likely including people right here in this forum, right? I mean, people are probably imagining these characters in jobs that they themselves are fairly familiar with.

Personally, another job that I think Dean would like would be a nurse, especially for emergency care. I say nurse instead of doctor because I think Dean would prefer a job that's more hands-on and patient-oriented, not because I think he's a "troglodyte." But he's a good leader and a very experienced, goal-oriented researcher, so maybe he'd enjoy being a doctor instead, I don't know.

In general, I can see him doing some kind of science or engineering in school, and then going into the medical field.

[DittyDotDot]

34 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Dean has been shown to be absolutely good with kids. Dean doesn't care if kids are brats to him. Look at Todd and Krissy. Dean relates to kids on their own level 90% of the time and he rarely lets them think they don't matter, which is what makes for a successful teacher IMO. Todd yelled at him and Dean still helped him stand up to bullies. Dean helped Ben stand up to bullies. Dean helped Timmy stand up to bullies and his own ghost mother. Krissy was a snot and tried to fool Dean and he shut that shit down quickly. He never takes a child's bratty behavior personally that I have seen.

IMO good teachers should and do discipline students in classrooms especially when they are being rude and disruptive for other students who are not behaving badly. And then sit with the disruptive student after class and impart wisdom and lessons.

So to mean Dean would be a great teacher.

I agree that Dean would be a great teacher. In fact, it might be the only other thing I can imagine Dean being happy doing long term. He'd get the reward of feeling he was helping and fulfill that protect and serve quota. It could engage him both physically and mentally and being an outsider is actually a good quality in a teacher because it allows them to see things from many points of view. I don't know, that actually could be something I could see Dean not only being successful at, but also enjoy long term. 

2 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Personally, another job that I think Dean would like would be a nurse, especially for emergency care. I say nurse instead of doctor because I think Dean would prefer a job that's more hands-on and patient-oriented, not because I think he's a "troglodyte." But he's a good leader and a very experienced, goal-oriented researcher, so maybe he'd enjoy being a doctor instead, I don't know.

Oh, that's another good possibility. And, I agree on the doctor versus nurse thing. Dean's a social animal, so it's not that I don't think Dean could be a doctor, but I think he would enjoy being more hands on and get to know the patients rather than knowing their charts.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

I agree that Dean would be a great teacher. In fact, it might be the only other thing I can imagine Dean being happy doing long term. He'd get the reward of feeling he was helping and fulfill that protect and serve quota. It could engage him both physically and mentally and being an outsider is actually a good quality in a teacher because it allows them to see things from many points of view. I don't know, that actually could be something I could see Dean not only being successful at, but also enjoy long term. 

Oh, that's another good possibility. And, I agree on the doctor versus nurse thing. Dean's a social animal, so it's not that I don't think Dean could be a doctor, but I think he would enjoy being more hands on and get to know the patients rather than knowing their charts.

The sucky thing about being an RN these days is that it costs not that much less becoming a full on M.D., so if cost were a mitigating factor for Dean and he wanted to pursue something in the medical field, which I can absolutely see, he might go the EMT/paramedic, physical/occupational therapist route. I think he might really love being an EMT the most because he would be sent into possibly dangerous situations, he's NOT averse to gory things and he would be saving people. Firefighter of course is a good one but they don't always deliver the medical care to the extent that an EMT or paramedic would.

I was thinking that if Zachariah would have put Dean into a medical/healing profession rather than as a sales director, Dean might not have been so quick to come around to hunting again because he would have had the "saving people" need fulfilled, which always really came before hunting. 

Edited July 30, 2017 by catrox14
NOT averse to gory things. LOL

[DittyDotDot]

12 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

The sucky thing about being an RN these days is that it costs not that much less becoming a full on M.D., so if cost were a mitigating factor for Dean and he wanted to pursue something in the medical field, which I can absolutely see, he might go the EMT/paramedic, physical/occupational therapist route. I think he might really love being an EMT the most because he would be sent into possibly dangerous situations, he's averse to gory things and he would be saving people. Firefighter of course is a good one but they don't always deliver the medical care to the extent that an EMT or paramedic would.

I was thinking that if Zachariah would have put Dean into a medical/healing profession rather than as a sales director, Dean might not have been so quick to come around to hunting again because he would have had the "saving people" need fulfilled, which always really came before hunting. 

Yes, an EMT would fit the bill too.

Damn, now I'm going to have to eat my words that there wasn't anything other than hunting I could see Dean enjoying for any length of time. ;)

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I worked in a restaurants for a long time, and it always stood out to me what a good server he would be. I wrote some overly detailed post on it at one point. But I didn't think that because that job is "menial" and working it shows "no intelligence or aspirations." Gah! That's a pretty horrible way to put it. You know that you're talking about jobs that millions of people do, likely including people right here in this forum, right? I mean, people are probably imagining these characters in jobs that they themselves are fairly familiar with.

Since you said you don`t read fanfic, you are probably not familiar with the phenomena I`m describing. Because I`m not putting down jobs per se but those stories absolutely do. They make it clear that it was chosen and portrayed as the lowliest, dirtiest crap the author could imagine and the character is fitted in it because he is basically unable to make something of himself. In ANY profession. 

And I`m damn sure either the authors are too young to be working themselves or live a much richer lifestyle. One where they couldn`t envision Dean in. 

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, rue721 said:

I worked in a restaurants for a long time, and it always stood out to me what a good server he would be. I wrote some overly detailed post on it at one point. But I didn't think that because that job is "menial" and working it shows "no intelligence or aspirations." Gah! That's a pretty horrible way to put it. You know that you're talking about jobs that millions of people do, likely including people right here in this forum, right? I mean, people are probably imagining these characters in jobs that they themselves are fairly familiar with

In a large portion of AU fanfiction stories where the author can make another choice, even in the synopses that describe the story for Dean , he is portrayed as being in those jobs not because he loves being a server or mechanic nor because he's making a crap ton of money being a server at a high end restaurant but because Dean can't hold any other career paths because he's an alcoholic or drug abuser or criminal some other tragic tale of woe for Dean because Dean is a loser in life; because Dean is not a good person in those stories. His substance abuse is not because he's coping with something awful but because it's just who he is.

I could deal with the those if they were portraying Dean as having fallen on hard times and is making the best of it or something, or  because Dean is doing those things out of a desire to choose them over something else.

[Jeddah]

54 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

In a large portion of AU fanfiction stories where the author can make another choice, even in the synopses that describe the story for Dean , he is portrayed as being in those jobs not because he loves being a server or mechanic nor because he's making a crap ton of money being a server at a high end restaurant but because Dean can't hold any other career paths because he's an alcoholic or drug abuser or criminal some other tragic tale of woe for Dean because Dean is a loser in life; because Dean is not a good person in those stories. His substance abuse is not because he's coping with something awful but because it's just who he is.

I could deal with the those if they were portraying Dean as having fallen on hard times and is making the best of it or something, or  because Dean is doing those things out of a desire to choose them over something else.

I had a problem with words and phrases like "menial" and "no intelligence and aspirations." Obviously, that sentiment really bothered me. I can understand complaining if Dean is written in fanfiction as out of character and without the good qualities we know he has. That's a valid complaint. That just not how the complaint here came across to me.

I don't read fanfiction, so I'm seeing this through a different lense. Maybe this conversation should have happened over in the fanfiction thread.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I had a problem with words and phrases like "menial" and "no intelligence and aspirations." Obviously, that sentiment really bothered me.

Those descriptives stuck with me because I have read them in those fanfictions I complained about. Some of them are quite clear about the intent.

[Jeddah]

16 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Those descriptives stuck with me because I have read them in those fanfictions I complained about. Some of them are quite clear about the intent.

Again, I don't read fanfiction. I was going off the words you used in this forum, and the incredibly condescending way those words came across to me. 

If this conversation is about fanfiction, it really should move to that thread.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Again, I don't read fanfiction. I was going off the words you used in this forum, and the incredibly condescending way those words came across to me. 

If this conversation is about fanfiction, it really should move to that thread.

I think it was always quite clearly stated to be about fanfictions and certain problems in them. I certainly never meant to imply anything else.   

[CluelessDrifter]

5 hours ago, rue721 said:

I don't read fanfic, so I don't really have a take on how fanfic writers as a whole depict Dean's career choices. But in general, he seems like he'd be a really good employee (conscientious and responsible) and would be especially good at running a business (assertive, lots of soft skills, and analytical), so I think he could do basically anything if he wanted.

I worked in a restaurants for a long time, and it always stood out to me what a good server he would be. I wrote some overly detailed post on it at one point. But I didn't think that because that job is "menial" and working it shows "no intelligence or aspirations." Gah! That's a pretty horrible way to put it. You know that you're talking about jobs that millions of people do, likely including people right here in this forum, right? I mean, people are probably imagining these characters in jobs that they themselves are fairly familiar with.

Personally, another job that I think Dean would like would be a nurse, especially for emergency care. I say nurse instead of doctor because I think Dean would prefer a job that's more hands-on and patient-oriented, not because I think he's a "troglodyte." But he's a good leader and a very experienced, goal-oriented researcher, so maybe he'd enjoy being a doctor instead, I don't know.

In general, I can see him doing some kind of science or engineering in school, and then going into the medical field.

I've always thought he'd be a good EMT, because he'd have to think fast on his feet in emergency situations, which he's good at doing, and he would be saving people at the same time, so an emergency room nurse is definitely something I could see him doing.

[ILoveReading]

Thinking Dean would make a good teacher, comes from the episode Freaks and Geeks.  Dean made a great mentor for them.  It made me think, that for me a great ending for Dean would have been opening the bunker to Supernatural Orphans.  (Basically the plot of WayWard Sisters).

I also think Dean would make a great counsellor, something like like probation or parole officer working with troubled youth.

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

It made me think, that for me a great ending for Dean would have been opening the bunker to Supernatural Orphans.  (Basically the plot of WayWard Sisters).

That's an interesting idea; orphans such as Jesse the antichrist?

[Whimsy]

Fanfic is off topic for this thread. Let's stay on topic please. 

[catrox14]

From the SuperNormal thread

48 minutes ago, SueB said:

 For example, a couple of years ago there was this one woman (who I think goes to many M&G) and she phrased her comment along the lines of "does Dean know his feelings matter too?" -- something which implied a criticism that his feelings were not as well discussed between characters.  And Jensen handled it deftly (IMO) saying Dean wouldn't think of it that way.  Dean would rather focus on Sam than himself. Although I have no ACTUAL knowledge, I suspect Jensen would NOT provide that feedback to the writers.  First, he prefers action over 'feels' and second, it was vague.  The questioner made it clear she was worried about Dean not getting enough support. His response was that Dean didn't feel like he wasn't supported.  

And yes, IMO they don't seem to interfere unless it looks out of character -- as last week they referenced a Singer directed episode where they switched the lines between Sam and Dean because it felt more natural.

I'm really curious about this.  Jensen says he prefers action over feels yet the writers write Dean with "feels" scenes regularly, Jensen infuses his character with feels, viewers and critics rave over Dean "feels" scenes and even Jensen seems to speak well of his "feels" scenes pretty frequently, the most recent being Regarding Dean mirror scene, the brothers good bye scene and the Mary scene in 12.22. All that seems opposite of him preferring action. 

Could this be a matter of Jensen not getting the action scenes and maybe this is his way of communicating what he would like for Dean? It's just kind of giving me cognitive dissonance LOL.

To me, and this is a poor analogy but I can't think of a better one, is like an actor that plays a villain who thinks they are not a villain and even a good guy . so the actor uses that to play them without being a mustache twirling villain. Like I said, it's a poor poor analogy because Dean isn't a villain.  Jensen says he doesn't think Dean sees himself needing support but that doesn't mean the character, in fact, doesn't need support. I guess that's good because he's playing Dean in an authentic way based on a messed up dude, but it's also a little frustrating because he doesn't seem to be suggesting that Dean might be a little screwed up on that point LOL. 

[DittyDotDot]

29 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm really curious about this.  Jensen says he prefers action over feels yet the writers write Dean with "feels" scenes regularly, Jensen infuses his character with feels, viewers and critics rave over Dean "feels" scenes and even Jensen seems to speak well of his "feels" scenes pretty frequently, the most recent being Regarding Dean mirror scene, the brothers good bye scene and the Mary scene in 12.22. All that seems opposite of him preferring action. 

Could this be a matter of Jensen not getting the action scenes and maybe this is his way of communicating what he would like for Dean? It's just kind of giving me cognitive dissonance LOL.

I've always had the impression Jensen would rather shoot a 10-hour fight scene than a 3-hour emotional scene, but preferring one thing doesn't mean he dislikes the other altogether.

29 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Jensen says he doesn't think Dean sees himself needing support but that doesn't mean the character, in fact, doesn't need support. I guess that's good because he's playing Dean in an authentic way based on a messed up dude, but it's also a little frustrating because he doesn't seem to be suggesting that Dean might be a little screwed up on that point LOL.

::snort:: Um, I'm pretty sure Dean is a little screwed up on a few points. ;)

No, seriously, I can see why Jensen thinks this. Dean, as a character, wouldn't feel he was being unsupported because Dean never thinks of himself. Personally, I don't think he's being unsupported in general, but there are times I have thought he wasn't being supported and I still think Dean would disagree with me.

ETA: I think I just said I was having an imaginary disagreement with a fictional character. Oh, boy, I probably should see someone about this! ;)

Edited August 1, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[SueB]

DittyDotDot ... once again, ITA.  

Kim Rhodes once said Jensen has a high emotional IQ.  I think she's right.  And I think that is true of Dean as well.  He does his best to shove his OWN feels into an iron box (although he's getting better and I'm so very thrilled about that).  But I think it's because of this high emotional IQ that Jensen can so beautifully portray those emotional scenes.  It also takes a shit-ton out of him from time to time and he'd rather do an action scene.  Action scenes are fun.  Getting that reverse 180? Man, that was like cocaine for Jensen.  He was on such a high having done that.  He was bubbling all OVER the place about it.  Both the complex stunt work and the emotional work are stellar, but IMO he has more fun with the stunt work.  

And going back to Dean feeling he's supported enough -- can I just say how THRILLED I was when he showed his confusion and hurt over his interactions with Mary this past year.  He was just LOST.  And Jensen felt that way about it too (see JIBCON video).  BUT they had Dean actually SHOW that and admit it to both Cas and Sam.  His relationship with Mary was one relationship he couldn't just push away (hence racing to get to his Mom in the Raid).  He's 'loves bitch' (TM Spike from Buffy) when it comes to his mom.  And he knows it.  But IMO they did a fantastic job of showing a complex man trying to figure out how to act towards his formerly-on-a-pedestal-and-now-with-feet-of-clay mother.  And the revelation that he had to acknowledge his anger towards her in order to forgive her was just ... astoundingly on point.  It's why (IMO) Jensen reacted as strongly as he did to the scene.  There was some serious truth bombs in that dialog.  And the Dean from S1-S7 wouldn't have gone there IMO.  It took S8-S11 for Dean to be able to actually engage with his own feelings.  Yes, he would RATHER run away from it but Dean is learning (IMO) to express himself and realizing that 1) he can trust Sam, Cas, and now Mary with expressing himself, and 2) it actually does help.  Cas has always had that profound bond with Dean. It took a hit in S6/S7 but came back strong in S8 IMO.  He and Sam have FINALLY gotten to a point where they will trust each other enough to stop doing things behind each others back.  Realistically, Sam had a few weeks of not telling Dean the truth about his case tip-offs in S12 but he sincerely apologized for that.  And in S11, Dean confessed his guilt over Amara and Sam gave such an AWESOME accepting speech to Dean... that just really helped IMO.  Finally, Dean was so awkward with Mary all year but I think he more rapidly reached a point in EP12.22 where I think he can express himself with her as well.  I mean, it takes a shit-ton of risk to tell your mom that you hate her but still love her.  

Bottom line: the S12 Dean we've seen has started to verbalize his own needs and Sam/Cas and now-ish Mary are really listening.  There was too much baggage in the way (IMO) between the brothers in the early years. And Dean got shut down a lot. Plus he put up a fight when people were trying to get him to talk.  Now, things are much more open.  Still painful.  But so much more healthy IMO.

Spoiler

Which is why I was glass J2 and the producers were quick to clarify that any differences between Sam and Dean regarding raising Jack in S13 are relatively small bumps in the road, not like when the brothers were truly at odds.  I think their relationship is not going to regress.  

[PAForrest]

On 7/30/2017 at 5:13 PM, ILoveReading said:

Thinking Dean would make a good teacher, comes from the episode Freaks and Geeks.  Dean made a great mentor for them.  It made me think, that for me a great ending for Dean would have been opening the bunker to Supernatural Orphans.  (Basically the plot of WayWard Sisters).

Back when my SPN friends and I would actually put some thought into where the direction of the show was going - if there was any direction at all - and what would be an appropriate end for the characters, yeah, we did think that Dean teaching a younger group of up and coming hunters was totally in his wheelhouse and possibly the eventual intention for the character.

But, like everything else that woulda/coulda/shoulda been Dean's, that role too has been hand-delivered to someone else. A shame.

As for what Dean would be doing otherwise if he wasn't a hunter, I thought he made it perfectly clear in season one that he wanted to be a firefighter and that completely fits with his personality. If not that, then maybe a cop. Dean likes to be in the thick of the action, he would always gravitate toward those high-danger kind of jobs, he has the personality and the will to do them combined with, more importantly, the need to help people. Not everyone can or even should attempt to do those jobs.

That's why when certain showrunners try and bench the character over and over and over again, the show feels utterly lacking, superficial, and mostly ridiculous. Something is very much missing when Dean isn't in the thick of the action, as he is meant to be.

Edited August 1, 2017 by PAForrest

[ILoveReading]

I've always found the whole "Dean need to learn to open up and communicate his feelings and talk about his needs" to be exaggerated.  Show runners, and bloggers often make it a special point in their interviews, or reviews as if its some novel thing, and that helps perpetuate the stereotype.

But I found that even though the writers try to shove Dean in this narrow box that doesn't fit.  Overall, I find Sam the emotionally closed off brother.   I'm not saying that Dean doesn't try to keep them close the vest at time, but for the most part I find if you give him his space and don't pressure him he will open up.  Off the top of my head in the early episodes.

Pilot- Dean tells Sam he doesn't want to do it alone after Sam tells him he can.  Deans' admitted that he may not need Sam, but he wants him.  He's making himself vulnerable here an opening himself up to rejection.

Windego- Explains to Sam that he deals with hunting stress by trying to help other people's families not be as screwed up as there.  In this ep, it was Sam that wanted to leave when he found out John wasn't there. 

Dead in the Water- Admits to being scared after the fire and tells Lucas he tries to be brave for his mom.  Once again making himself vulnerable.

Phantom Traveler- Admits he's afraid to fly.

Home- Admits to John that he needs help, and once again makes himself vulnerable and opens up to rejection.

Scarecrow- Tells Sam he's proud for being able to stand up to Dad and says he wish he could.

Route 666- opened up to Cassie and told her the truth about who he was (maybe not talking about feelings, but it is once again opening Dean up to rejection).  Had several honest conversations with Cassie.\

Shadow- Admits he wants the whole family together after Sam asks him what he wants. 

Something Wicked- Opens up and talks about how he feels its his fault the Windego got away. 

Provenence- Initiates an emotional moment by trying to convince Sam to have some fun with Sarah

Salvation- Finally tells Dad off for ignoring them.

Devil's Trap- Admits he's scared about how far he'll go for family. 

So for "No chick flick moments" Dean, that's a "chick flick moment in a little over half the episodes.  There may be more that I'm forgetting. 

How many times has Dean opened up only to have the words boo hoo thrown in his face and told to shove those feelings down.   If I were Dean, I woudn't want to open up at this point either. 

So, s12 was no different for me in terms of character development for Dean.  I felt there was some in the first half where he was standing up for himself, but that turned to character regression after The Raid when Dean started mainlining the Valium and turned back into the family doormat. 

I'm glad Who We Are worked for Jensen, but it didn't work for me because from what I saw.  If Dean had subconscious hate toward his mother, I could see him pushing her away.  He didn't, he reached out to her.  It was Mary that rejected him.  Dean's anger at Mary didn't need to be subconscious, as Dean had very legitimate surface reasons to be angry with Mary.  (Sam too, but I'm focusing on Dean).  I agree with @catrox14 who said the speech would better fit with Dean's relationship with  John.

Sam's speech at the End of Love Hurts didn't work either because it was just words.  When Sam had a chance to back them when God was telling Dean he didn't want Amara dead, Sam just sat there and didn't defend his brother.  Why didn't Sam ever tell Dean that he believed in him.  I used to volunteer at a vocactional center and the hardest thing I had to learn was that if someone was struggling with doubt and self confidence it did them no favors by doing it for them.  What I needed from Sam was, "Yeah Dean I do it if necessary, but your stronger than you think." 

I'm not suggesting that Dean is comfortable with emotions or that he's an open book or that he handles emotional situations perfectly, I just think the show needs to move on and stop acting like Dean needs to learn to communicate.  He's can and has.  Its more that other people need to actually listen to what he's saying.  That IMO, is a far bigger problem.  And most of all stop telling him to shove them back down, because its not convenient for them that Dean isn't acting like they think he's supposed to, or my least favorite excuse, "its not the right time for Dean to have a break down. "

TL/DR Version- I think Dean is better with his emotions than the show tries to portray and it needs to stop defining Dean by his "No chick flick" statement he made in the Pilot

Edited August 1, 2017 by ILoveReading

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

But I found that even though the writers try to shove Dean in this narrow box that doesn't fit.  Overall, I find Sam the emotionally closed off brother.   I'm not saying that Dean doesn't try to keep them close the vest at time, but for the most part I find if you give him his space and don't pressure him he will open up.  Off the top of my head in the early episodes.

I agree that Sam is actually the more closed off emotionally, but I think it's not so much that Dean doesn't show emotions, it's that Dean doesn't want to, or think he is, showing his emotions. I think it just comes out of him unwittingly and quite often when he's pushed is when he is his most emotional. Whereas, I think Sam wants to and thinks he is showing his emotions, but very rarely is and when pushed he actually shuts down more than opens up.

I don't know that I'd call it growth exactly--that implies to me that Dean was doing it wrong previously and I don't think he necessarily was--but Dean wasn't carrying around everything and letting it fester and eat at him until he couldn't take it anymore this season. I mean, think back to the end of Salvation when Dean spills that he's barely holding it together. That's an accumulation of everything that hes been holding onto for the whole season--his anger at John up and disappearing like he did, his frustration with feeling abandoned by Sam, his worry over what's happening to Sam, his worry over how far John will go and how reckless he's becoming, his fear about losing both John and Sam; all these things were pressing on Dean and now with John missing again, it's too much weight.

So, I think that it wasn't so much that Dean was so open this season as much as he just didn't let everything pile on him this season, he kinda let it all out in spurts as he went along so it didn't weigh him down like before. I think it's actually most evident with how he dealt with Mary, I don't think he was on Valium with her, but he tended to each wound as he got them instead of letting them fester and grow.  She pushes him away and runs off, he's able to lift that weight by just telling her what he thinks of that instead of just shouldering it like he used to do with John. Same with when he found out she lied and used them later, he lets his anger fly at her instead of adding it to the pile of things he's carrying around. Dean just felt much more carefree this season.

TBH, it was almost like Dean allowed that part of Demon Dean, who was just living in the moment, to come out and play a bit this season. Which, when I think about it actually is a, most likely accidental, follow through for Dean from S10 and S11. It's almost like Dean broke apart while carrying the Mark and is slowly picking up the pieces and putting himself back together, just in a slightly different configuration.

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

I'm glad Who We Are worked for Jensen, but it didn't work for me because from what I saw.  If Dean had subconscious hate toward his mother, I could see him pushing her away.  He didn't, he reached out to her.  It was Mary that rejected him.  Dean's anger at Mary didn't need to be subconscious, as Dean had very legitimate surface reasons to be angry with Mary.  (Sam too, but I'm focusing on Dean).  I agree with @catrox14 who said the speech would better fit with Dean's relationship with  John.

See, for me, it would've never worked with John because I've never thought he had any subconscious anger at John. Don't get me wrong, his relationship with John was very complicated, but I think Dean dealt with what anger he had at John back in S2 and S3. It was never subconscious though, even if he didn't address it with John, he consciously knew he had issues with the man.

It's not uncommon for children who lose parents young to be angry and feel that parent abandoned them, but also feel they don't have the right to be angry at them at the same time. I think that's what was going on with Dean. It's not that Dean didn't have good reasons to have conscious anger at Mary, but in Dean's mind, he felt he didn't, so he buried it. 

Edited August 1, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

TL/DR Version- I think Dean is better with his emotions than the show tries to portray and it needs to stop defining Dean by his "No chick flick" statement he made in the Pilot

Especially now that Dean admitted in 11.23 that he really does like chick flicks. 

I've said all along that Dean is the most emotional character in the show. He's willing to open himself and be vulnerable UNTIL he's shown that being that way will be shut down, put down and disregarded,  or is a mistake in some way.  

I've always looked at that "no chick flick moments" in a couple of different ways. IMO it was mostly  just snark that Kripke put in Dean's mouth that he thought would be funny leading into the "Jerk/Bitch" moment.  Beyond just a snarky moment, I do think there are a few things going on in that "no chick flick moments' scene.

The brothers hadn't spoken in 2 years, so  pretty much everything between them was weird and awkward yet filled with some fond familiarity, and awkward unfamiliarity because they have both changed a lot during that time.  IMO, the "no chick flick moments" was a mix of Dean kind of not really believing Sam was all that sorry for whatever he was apologizing for, not saying Dean was right in his perception just that IMO was part of it, and he really did not want to hear it in that moment, AND that maybe on some level, Dean didn't think apologies were warranted because it wasn't going to change the past so why get into it then and there. IMO, it was never a matter of Dean being allergic to emotions as a matter of course, but more that Dean was saying "Dude, I don't want to hear this RIGHT NOW", because it's a whole big can of worms, so he tried to deflect it with snark.

I mean to me it can't really have been that he was allergic to emotions given ALL of Dean's emotions were clearly on display throughout the pilot and pretty well in every episode of this show from the moment Dean admitted to Sam he didn't want to look for Dad alone and when he shoved Sam against the bridge for what he thought was disrespect to Mary, whether it was or not is a different discussion. My point here is that Dean did not repress/suppress his emotions throughout the pilot and throughout the first 1.5 seasons. 

But much of that shifted in s2 after John died, which for me makes all the sense in the world.  IMO, Dean did not want to talk about HIS emotions about John WITH Sam because the "Save or Kill Sam" directive may have slipped out before he even knew how to process it all.  IMO, it wasn't that Dean was keeping secrets just to be an asshole or "because no chick flick moments" but rather he was overwhelmed with grief which is it's own ugly kettle of fish, combined with a completely unreasonable, terrible and terrifying burden placed on him by his dying father. Dean had to "keep his game face on for Sammy" as he told Gordon. Dean DID talk about his emotions, just not with Sam. Whether it was the best way to have handled it, is a different matter.

Edited August 1, 2017 by catrox14
*forgot to add the salient point that Dean DOES talk about his emotions

[ILoveReading]

26 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

So, I think that it wasn't so much that Dean was so open this season as much as he just didn't let everything pile on him this season, he kinda let it all out in spurts as he went along so it didn't weigh him down like before. I think it's actually most evident with how he dealt with Mary, I don't think he was on Valium with her, but he tended to each wound as he got them instead of letting them fester and grow.

I can agree to a certain extent that Dean wasn't bottling things up.   I've said before that I really liked how Jensen portrayed Dean with a renewed sense of confidence and even a bit of self esteem.

Something changed after ep 12.  That' when I think Dean started downing the Valium because it felt like Dean had this real air of defeat all around him.  It was written all over his face after ep 15 when he found out Sam lied to him and manipulated him into working with the Brits.  Someone whose care free doesn't suddenly become incompetent on hunts and drop weapons or act like they don't want to be there in the first place (that's if he can even manage to show up).

Those for me just aren't the actions of someone whose care free.  Its far closer to someone whose give up.  It's almost like Dean came to realize his feelings really don't matter and the only way he can have a relationship with Sam or Mary is if he becomes who they think he should be, rather than who he is. 

Dean apologized to Mary for being angry when he had every right to be.  Mary continued to ignore and push Dean away no matter what he did.  That's when the wheels feel off for me.  Because it was just Dean once again taking it, burying it, and shoving down all the betrayals and lies.  Despite everyone one Dean's inner circle lying and going behind his back, it was Dean who did all the reaching out, compromising and apologizing.  Which, to me is character regression.  True growth would have been Dean standing his ground, but he gave in.  Yes, its a Dean trait, but its not character growth.

I guess the reason the speech fits more for John, is because i have reference points that show me that Dean had some resentment toward John.  Dream a little Dream of Me we see that Dean blames john for not protecting mom, and Bad Boys showed us that Dean did harbour some resentment about all the responsibility John put on him.  I don't think that like about fixing cars and no longer being responsible was just about cars. 

The show did such a crappy job of establishing any kind of relationship between Dean and Mary, that I didn't feel any resentment from Dean towards Mary.  Jensen is normally so good at that, that's why I think it was never something that was building.  I'm glad Jensen was able to find meaning it it because it was superberly delivered even if I didn't like what it has to say. 

[DittyDotDot]

On 8/1/2017 at 9:47 AM, ILoveReading said:

Dean apologized to Mary for being angry when he had every right to be.

Dean didn't apologize to Mary for being angry, IMO, he apologized for telling her she couldn't work with the Brits. I didn't think Dean was ever saying he didn't have a right to be angry or that he was okay with her using them, but was saying he didn't have a right to tell her who she could and couldn't work with.

On 8/1/2017 at 9:47 AM, ILoveReading said:

The show did such a crappy job of establishing any kind of relationship between Dean and Mary, that I didn't feel any resentment from Dean towards Mary. 

But that's why it worked for me in the end, they couldn't establish a relationship because of both of them had repressed feelings they weren't dealing with. Dean had to admit his subconscious anger at Mary and Mary needed to face herself before they could establish a relationship.  

On 8/1/2017 at 9:47 AM, ILoveReading said:

I guess the reason the speech fits more for John, is because i have reference points that show me that Dean had some resentment toward John.  Dream a little Dream of Me we see that Dean blames john for not protecting mom, and Bad Boys showed us that Dean did harbour some resentment about all the responsibility John put on him.  I don't think that like about fixing cars and no longer being responsible was just about cars. 

But, that was when Dean was 16 years old. I don't think Dean has that resentment anymore. I think he long ago let that go and is at a place of peace--more or less--with John. And, like I said, I don't think Dean wasn't unaware of having issues with John, so the sudden realization he did would seem really out of character to me. It made a lot more sense for me with Mary because Dean didn't know he had these feelings so we wouldn't have seen them manifest earlier like we saw with his issues with John.

Edited August 4, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[ILoveReading]

13 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

But that's why it worked for me in the end, they couldn't establish a relationship because of both of them had repressed feelings they weren't dealing with. Dean had to admit his subconscious anger at Mary and Mary needed to face herself before they could establish a relationship.

IMO, what prevented them from establishing a relationship was that Mary wasn't there.  Dean tried to reach out to her several times.  Even after he left he tried to keep in touch and establish boundries.   The only time Dean froze Mary out was briefly after he found out she lied to them.  Then he quickly accepted her back.  It didn't feel like repressed feelings were were stopping Dean so much as Mary physically was out of the picture.   I just didn't get that from Jensen's performance that he was subconsciously pushing her away. 

[DittyDotDot]

34 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

IMO, what prevented them from establishing a relationship was that Mary wasn't there.  Dean tried to reach out to her several times.  Even after he left he tried to keep in touch and establish boundries.   The only time Dean froze Mary out was briefly after he found out she lied to them.  Then he quickly accepted her back.  It didn't feel like repressed feelings were were stopping Dean so much as Mary physically was out of the picture.   I just didn't get that from Jensen's performance that he was subconsciously pushing her away. 

Yes, physically what kept them from having a relationship was that Mary ran away. What I'm saying is, I don't think it would've mattered if she'd stuck around, they could never have an actual honest relationship until BOTH of them dealt with these issues. I'm not suggesting it's Dean's fault nor do I think Dean did anything wrong, but I just don't think there was much of a relationship to be had until everything was broken open in Who We Are. It would've probably broken open earlier if Mary just had stuck around, but I don't think Mary was ready to face herself until later in the season. So, even though Dean was ready and willing to deal with it all, Mary wasn't yet. And, since relationships are two way streets, there was nothing Dean could do until Mary was ready.

Edited August 1, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Something changed after ep 12.  That' when I think Dean started downing the Valium because it felt like Dean had this real air of defeat all around him.  It was written all over his face after ep 15 when he found out Sam lied to him and manipulated him into working with the Brits.  Someone whose care free doesn't suddenly become incompetent on hunts and drop weapons or act like they don't want to be there in the first place (that's if he can even manage to show up).

I agree. He seemed to be just weary and over it all. And really, whenever he tried to talk about his feelings where were the others to listen? Sam continuously told him he was doing it wrong when it came to their mother. No, don`t be angry, be more understanding, be this, be that. Cas used an emotional connection as a ploy to screw him over and Mary just stood there and took the forgiveness like it was her due and then fretted about Sam. 

Especially do not see a two-way-street relationship with Mary there. What, that she acknowledged he was there in her dream world? That was supposed to be it? Too little, too late IMO. Maybe not for Dean but certainly for me.

If Season 12 was supposed to show me Dean being more open and in turn being supported, they were seriously doing it wrong. Just like Sam always told him he was doing it wrong. 

Even when the character was in his supposed depressive phases in the show, I`ve never seen him as defeated and disengaged as I did in Season 12. He is usually a passionate, vibrant person - that may manifest themselves in darker ways when he isn`t emotionally well off but he normally isn`t somehow who sleepwalks through life. Until 12.B. Hell no if that was supposed to be character growth or progression. Get a defibrillator on him, stat. I want the alive version back.     

Quote

When Sam had a chance to back them when God was telling Dean he didn't want Amara dead, Sam just sat there and didn't defend his brother.  Why didn't Sam ever tell Dean that he believed in him.  I used to volunteer at a vocactional center and the hardest thing I had to learn was that if someone was struggling with doubt and self confidence it did them no favors by doing it for them.  What I needed from Sam was, "Yeah Dean I do it if necessary, but your stronger than you think." 

It was ludicrous that everyone accused Dean of not wanting to kill her enough. She even wiped the floor with God himself. So Dean`s attitude was hardly the problem, the insane power imbalance was. How was he supposed to kill her? By wishing it really hard? 

And yup, I wasn`t fond of the "oh, I`ll do it" speech. And really, it`s the same thing as the Trials speech. Dean basically expresses doubt in himself so "don`t worry, I`ll do in your place" just conveys "well, I don`t think you can do it either but fear not, I will handle it". That doesn`t help. 

Just like this belief when he had the MOC that everything was a sign of doom. Even before the real doom started. 

Edited August 1, 2017 by Aeryn13

[SueB]

I may have to cede my keyboard over to @DittyDotDot this week.  She keeps picking up what I'm putting down with eerie precision.

@ILoveReading - I should have been more clear. I think Dean is a VERY emotional person. It's how he handles it that has improved so tremendously.  As Dean himself said in S6 - he handled his pain with "bouts of violence and alcoholism".  Yes, he spoke up but he often got shut down.  And he bottled shit up until he let it blow.  He's improved so VERY much IMO.  He reached for the bottle for one brief episode and that's it.  

I also agree Sam is very complicated.  I LOVED in "Sam, Interrupted" when he admitted he was 'angry, all the time'.  He has the "I'm dealing with it" attitude but he doesn't.  As I've said in other place, Sam compartmentalizes.  And I don't think we are done with his relationship with Mary.

Finally, as for Mary, I'm bummed so many didn't see the whole 'repressed emotions' (yes, @DittyDotDot that's exactly the right word for it) revelation that came out.  I admit, I was pre-conditioned for it due to my own life experience. But I thought if Jensen got it, so would everyone else (i.e. you don't have to have lost a parent as a child to understand the dynamic Dean had with Mary). For a detailed explanation see: Psychological underpinnings for this experience 
From Dean's POV: What they had in EP 12.22 was CLASSIC child/parent conflict in dealing with a dead parent.  Most of us don't get to actually confront the parent.  And the fallout from Mary's death was such a HUGE impact on who Dean is.  As I mentioned upstream, Dean (like Jensen) has a high emotional IQ.  That he was able to dig deep and realize he hated Mary for dying was such a tremendous breakthrough. I'll attribute it to Dean's instinctive protectiveness of children.  And seeing Mary lie to him as a child, he was able to distance himself enough to see the damage that did.
From Mary's POV: I think part of why she finally broke completely WAS her fragile mental state of having to face the children she damaged.  Most hunters come in, save the day, and leave without seeing the fallout.  She saved John but she wasn't there to see the fallout of her children.  And when she was resurrected, she got a big faceful of fallout.  That she ran away from them to hide from dealing with it makes sense.  And that she recognized that was what she was doing by keeping her distance (at the end of 12.22) was very gratifying. 

But it's not over yet.  Because punching the Devil in the face?  That was suicide by sacrifice.  Even if/when they get her back, she's going to have to own that.  But it's also, IMO, very realistic.  No one just 'recovers' from the kind of breakthroughs both Mary and Dean had in 12.22 and moves on as if it never happened.  Dean has a better chance of Mary because he's become emotionally more resilient over the years. Mary is likely to backslide (and I think she did a bit in 12.23).  It's easy to say "our past pain was okay because it made us who we are and who we are is great".  It's logical. You can rationalize that and intellectually come to grips with it.  But emotionally?  Emotionally you have to confront ALL your biases and "shoulds" before you can REALLY get comfortable with that statement.  Mary STILL hates hunting.  Still thinks hunting is a brutal, horrible thing that her children have to do.  And she's kinda not wrong.  What she has to come to grips with is that the boys CHOOSE the pain/horror/brutality because the fact is they are GOOD at it (hunting). And their skill has given them a mission (save the actual world) that is worth the sacrifice.  If they were some routine 'salt-n-burn' hunters, I think she would never accept this is all they should do.  But they've become so much more than that.  Perhaps her time in Apocalypseville will make her appreciate that their choice is worth the pain they continue to suffer. 

And Dean's emotional journey with Mary isn't over yet.  The woman just did the 'suicide by sacrifice' move. She ABANDONED HIS ASS.  Again.  Yes, he gets she was punching Lucifer and she kinda earned that (the whole special kids thing was all about Lucifer after all), but she also didn't protect herself to stay and BE with them. To have that fresh start.  So... shit will meet fan. Again.  And Dean may be slower to come around.  That was a big moment for him. Opening up to Mary.  And then she left his ass.  He may or maynot verbalize it, but that's going to be an issue IMO. 

Edited August 1, 2017 by SueB

[SueB]

5 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I'm glad Who We Are worked for Jensen, but it didn't work for me because from what I saw.  If Dean had subconscious hate toward his mother, I could see him pushing her away.  He didn't, he reached out to her.  It was Mary that rejected him.  Dean's anger at Mary didn't need to be subconscious, as Dean had very legitimate surface reasons to be angry with Mary.  (Sam too, but I'm focusing on Dean).  I agree with @catrox14 who said the speech would better fit with Dean's relationship with  John.

Not if it's a repressed emotion.  Everything he's always dreamed of (What Is and What Should Never Be) was a fantasy of Mary returning.  And now she's back. And he thinks he should be happy.  He thinks he should embrace her existence and be a good son to her.  Mary coming back his chance (in his mind) for true happiness and healing.  He said at the beginning he was freakin' thrilled she was back. But deep down inside, he's not.  And before he really got to understand WHY this was not just all puppies and sunshine, she runs away.  So it's easy to blame his unhappiness on her running away.  But even if she had stayed, there would have been friction.  It's like getting what you've always wanted and the hype didn't live up to the reality.  But it's DEEPER than that.  Worse, he would feel guilty about not being happy.  He would think there was something wrong with him for not being happy.  Being angry at a (previously) dead parent is counter intuitive.  When you are a child, they are the sun & moon & stars.  And she was killed by an evil demon.  That's in his DNA.  So being angry at her -- welp, she's his Mom.  He just can't be angry at her (this is emotion-based, not logic based.... it doesn't HAVE to make sense for it to be true).  But Dean had enough self-awareness to realize that he DID have these feelings.  And it didn't matter.  It was OKAY to feel that way.  He had been in her shoes and made those same mistakes.  So forgiveness (once he realized he needed to offer it), came easy.  

John is a completely DIFFERENT kettle of fish.  He has some anger coming at him as well.  But as soon as he shows (IF he ever shows), Dean will be hard pressed to break his conditioning.  So, IF that ever happens, it'll be an entirely different speech.  One that is less raw 'emotions-without-logic' and one that Dean has not repressed.  Dean KNOWS he has issues with John, that doesn't mean he's prepared to deal with them if actually confronted with them. 

Edited August 1, 2017 by SueB

[Aeryn13]

When Mary was brought back to life, I expected the storyline to be weird and awkward because how could it not be. I didn`t expect one way or the other if it was more focused on one brother or both but I can admit overall it was more focused on Dean.

However, one Season later, I have to say it wasn`t what I expected because for the negatives I expected, I figured for Dean there was a real possibility for some positives. And yet I got none. So in the end, this whole Mary story didn`t work for me narratively and emotionally while it was going on. I didn`t find it believable, entertaining or even cathartic. And the pay-off wasn`t worth it either. The scene was well-acted by Jensen but that`s the extent of it in my eyes.

Compared to the limited appearances of John in Season 1 where equally lots of stuff was infuriating but to me more emotionally honest and believable and the pay-off in their final scene alive in that hospital room was both well-acted and emotionally beautiful. 

Mary as a character is pretty much ruined for me now, I`m disappointed in who she turned out to be and even in who she turned out to have been. And as much as it was a  vague relationship with Dean in the past, I thought it was a positive one. Not anymore. Unfortunately that takes back even from past scenes like their interaction in What is etc. I can`t not see Season 12 Mary now. Only the flashbacks to young Mary work because the difference in actor still creates enough of a divide in my mind.     

[SueB]

Well, misaligned expectations is usually the root cause of disappointment.  That doesn't mean your expectations were wrong, just that they were not aligned with what the show wanted to do. 

I honestly didn't expect Dean's emotional journey to "go there".  I find it MUCH more complex and nuanced than I thought.  It says to me Mary is a long term character, not a single season arc.  For me, I disliked what was going on between Mary & Dean all year but the payoff turns it all around.  It all "fits" neatly for me now. But I also have a season-view for this show.  Watching week to week is frustrating, but it's like taping the walls before painting.  It has to be done.  When the roller comes out (and I get to watch the season all at once), THAT's truly where I find the most enjoyment.  

I REALLY think that this kind of slow-burn season-long arc is better suited for binge watching than week to week.  That concept (binge watching) was pretty much in its infancy in S1 w/ John.  I think they are writing differently now.  But I think Dabb & company are embracing the slow-burn approach.  Since we don't have Netflix numbers, I can't say if he's playing to the larger audience or not.  

[bethy]

I think that if writers/producers are going to adopt the slow-burn approach for the binge-watching crowd, they need to figure out how to give the week-to-week people something in the meantime. They shouldn't expect regular viewers to hold out for 22 hours of nothing between two characters because there will be some big pay-off in the finale or the last few episodes. For me, at least. I guess I need it to actually be a slow-burn - as in there is something there to keep me invested and intrigued - instead of just lighting what seems to me to be a cold fire at the end of the season. :)