All Episodes Talk: Season 7

[taanja]

I guess I didn't have the hate-on for S-7 as most here seem to have. Sure. It wasn't great great but it was OK.

Interesting that so many other's do not share my favorable opinion. I will concede that the potential slayers were potentially lame.

but I always loved Spike from his first ep -- School Hard ---to the very end. I even watched Angel's final season (A show I hated!) because Spike was on it.

[GreenScreenFX]

Given the number of newbies watching the show recently on this forum. It would have been cool of you to post that as a spoiler. I am aware we are WAY past the "spoiled" date, so read at your own risk.... but still. That's a major one.

Edited November 10, 2016 by GreenScreenFX

[justcris]

I've been rewatching a bunch of episodes from this season for the first time since the original air date, and what struck me now was that the first half is actually pretty good! It just really went downhill after that. 
I like the whole idea of it, the concept of the potentials and the setup of the First, but the execution fell through. So disappointing.

[VCRTracking]

Season 7 or at least the first half needed to be a lot lighter after Season 6. After that dark and depressing season you just couldn't back to episodes that were only slightly less dark and depressing. ANGEL was already a dark show to begin with but that whole run of run of episodes in season 2 from "The Trial" to "Epiphany" was incredibly dark, probably the darkest of the series. The arc lasted only 8 episodes but it was so nihilistic you couldn't just get back to normal after that. It needed to go the other way in tone first. The episode with Harmony and the goofy "Pylea" episodes shortly afterwards provided a breath of fresh air that restored equilibrium to the show. To have Angel go through his darkest journey and now suddenly being able to walk around during the daytime feeling sunlight on his face. It was perfect. The end of BTVS season 6 was supposed to be Buffy learning to love life again and appreciate being alive. We never really got any continuation of that when season 7 started.

Edited March 30, 2017 by VCRTracking

[slf]

I still feel rage whenever I think about them throwing Buffy out of her own house. Where she had lived for over six years, where her mother died. After they had dragged her out of heaven. Honestly, fuck 'em. Fuck Anya for saying that Buffy was "born luckier" than them because she's a slayer even tho almost no slayer makes it past 25 (and Anya had lived for a thousand years, probably longer than every slayer combined). Fuck Kennedy for saying Buffy shouldn't be the leader because she wouldn't give them a say but then turning around and telling other potentials that "those of us who've been here longer should have more of a say." Fuck Faith for also doing the "you should let me have a say" thing right up until she was made leader then she shut everyone down with, "I'm not the one who's been on your asses all this time, but I'm not one of you anymore, either. I'm your leader, which means I go first, and I make the rules, and the rest of you follow after me. Is that clear? So, Kennedy, back the hell off, and let me do my job, all right?" Which....is basically what Buffy said.

[slf]

1 hour ago, nosleepforme said:

 I think it would have made more sense, if the First had appeared as Buffy to the entire gang and fooled them. Then at least there would have been a reason why everyone suddenly goes up against Buffy and it then would also have made more sense for the First to actually appear like Buffy so often (other than budgetary constrictions).

This would've been much better than what they gave us. I never understood why the First appeared as Buffy only to Caleb if there wasn't going to be some kind of payoff. Using her appearance to manipulate the potentials and the gang would've made sense.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎05‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 2:40 AM, Jazzy24 said:

Buffy really did glow and smile her first genuine smile since like season 4 when Angel showed up. And part of that I think was Sarah and her love for Angel and Buffy. I think she was just happy to have David/Angel back for the series finale. Angel was there since the beginning and it was so satisfying to see him there for the end plus we got that little confirmation IMO that they will end up together someday. 

No, every time she sees Dawn or has the gang together her smile is genuine, it's simply her relationship with Riley was so dull and Spuffy was so joyless as compared to Bangel. 

[Jazzy24]

On 5/7/2018 at 1:00 PM, Joe Hellandback said:

No, every time she sees Dawn or has the gang together her smile is genuine, it's simply her relationship with Riley was so dull and Spuffy was so joyless as compared to Bangel. 

I really don’t remember Buffy being all happy and smiling with her sister and the Scooby gang during seasons 5, 6, or 7 honestly. Buffy was all either worried about Dawn, depressed or trying to save the world. Plus she and the Scoobies started to be written as distant in the later seasons, mainly season 6 and 7. After season 4 Buffy’s life just got really really dark and depressing. 

[Joe Hellandback]

7 hours ago, Jazzy24 said:

I really don’t remember Buffy being all happy and smiling with her sister and the Scooby gang during seasons 5, 6, or 7 honestly. Buffy was all either worried about Dawn, depressed or trying to save the world. Plus she and the Scoobies started to be written as distant in the later seasons, mainly season 6 and 7. After season 4 Buffy’s life just got really really dark and depressing. 

Come on, how about when Buffy and Dawn went shopping to return all of Dawn's shoplifted items? Or when she and Faith make up? Or Buffy's birthday before it turned into the inevitable disaster (love the little look B&D give one another as they wave the others goodbye, they're not going anywhere because this is where they belong together)? Or when they welcome Willow home?

[Halting Hex]

On 5/9/2018 at 8:49 AM, Joe Hellandback said:

Or Buffy's birthday before it turned into the inevitable disaster (love the little look B&D give one another as they wave the others goodbye, they're not going anywhere because this is where they belong together)?

Except where the hell is Willow going, anyway?  She lives there, too!  In fact, given Buffy's "summer vacation", she's spent more time in the house, more time co-parenting Dawn than either Buffy or Tara has over the previous year.  But let's ignore this, let's have Willow dance off on the grass or whatever, let's treat her as an unwelcome guest, another Richard Redshirt, just to give us an unearned "sister moment" between Buffy and the girl she barely tolerates (and is lying to, every moment of every day) for a fake "happy ending" to this very dull episode.  Blech.

On 5/9/2018 at 8:49 AM, Joe Hellandback said:

Or when they welcome Willow home?

More precisely, when they're at the airport waiting to welcome Willow home, but the (incredibly-contrived) plot means they don't actually know what happened to her (and Willow doesn't call and leave a message on the answering machine, because then the plot wouldn't work…) and once (by ridiculous contrivance) a dead body turns up at Xander's construction site (on the one day where they can't find Will, because otherwise the plot wouldn't work…), Buffy immediately zooms to the conclusion that it must be Willow, on absolutely zero evidence (yes, Buffy, Willow flew 6000 miles and snuck off the plane invisibly so she could skin kids in the one town where she'd be a suspect…) and Dawn encourages Buffy's Willow-bashing and plots to steal her place in the group ("I bet there's tons of stuff like this, procedures we can use that don't involve magic spells, just good solid detective work." Translation, I'm so smart, we don't even need Willow!  Fuck off, Shiny McWhiny.) and rather than apologize for sealing Willow in the cave and nearly getting her killed (because Gnarl is somehow "immune" to magic. Why?  Say it with me: because otherwise the plot wouldn't work…), Buffy gets all judgmental and makes Willow apologize to her and really, both Summers girls can just fuck off here.  No better than Anya, they were.  And that's a very low bar to clear.

And no, I never saw an honest smile from Buffy the entirety of UPN, either.  Barring when she was amnesiac, of course.  Cite one moment where she delighted in the company of her "friends" (snarkquotes needed because she never considered them that, not like Fake Sister or My Darling Rapist, not any more) the way she did in When She Was Bad or Reptile Boy or Ted or The Wish or…I bet you can't.  The two years of UPHell consisted of Buffy pretty much wishing everyone else in the cast would die (bar St. Cheekbones, of course) and then feeling somewhat badly about that and sulking, again, some more.  Fuck her.  No wonder I hated the show by then.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎18‎/‎05‎/‎2018 at 2:47 PM, Halting Hex said:

Except where the hell is Willow going, anyway?  She lives there, too!  In fact, given Buffy's "summer vacation", she's spent more time in the house, more time co-parenting Dawn than either Buffy or Tara has over the previous year.  But let's ignore this, let's have Willow dance off on the grass or whatever, let's treat her as an unwelcome guest, another Richard Redshirt, just to give us an unearned "sister moment" between Buffy and the girl she barely tolerates (and is lying to, every moment of every day) for a fake "happy ending" to this very dull episode.  Blech.

More precisely, when they're at the airport waiting to welcome Willow home, but the (incredibly-contrived) plot means they don't actually know what happened to her (and Willow doesn't call and leave a message on the answering machine, because then the plot wouldn't work…) and once (by ridiculous contrivance) a dead body turns up at Xander's construction site (on the one day where they can't find Will, because otherwise the plot wouldn't work…), Buffy immediately zooms to the conclusion that it must be Willow, on absolutely zero evidence (yes, Buffy, Willow flew 6000 miles and snuck off the plane invisibly so she could skin kids in the one town where she'd be a suspect…) and Dawn encourages Buffy's Willow-bashing and plots to steal her place in the group ("I bet there's tons of stuff like this, procedures we can use that don't involve magic spells, just good solid detective work." Translation, I'm so smart, we don't even need Willow!  Fuck off, Shiny McWhiny.) and rather than apologize for sealing Willow in the cave and nearly getting her killed (because Gnarl is somehow "immune" to magic. Why?  Say it with me: because otherwise the plot wouldn't work…), Buffy gets all judgmental and makes Willow apologize to her and really, both Summers girls can just fuck off here.  No better than Anya, they were.  And that's a very low bar to clear.

And no, I never saw an honest smile from Buffy the entirety of UPN, either.  Barring when she was amnesiac, of course.  Cite one moment where she delighted in the company of her "friends" (snarkquotes needed because she never considered them that, not like Fake Sister or My Darling Rapist, not any more) the way she did in When She Was Bad or Reptile Boy or Ted or The Wish or…I bet you can't.  The two years of UPHell consisted of Buffy pretty much wishing everyone else in the cast would die (bar St. Cheekbones, of course) and then feeling somewhat badly about that and sulking, again, some more.  Fuck her.  No wonder I hated the show by then.

Nah, Willow helped Richard to the hospital and Dawn is the love of Buffy's life as the end of s7 proves. What exactly did she lie to Dawnie about? I actually thought it was quite plausible how Willow came to be the suspect and rather clever plot, the audience know but the Scoobs genuinely don't.  

[Jack Shaftoe]

On 5/19/2018 at 8:00 PM, Joe Hellandback said:

Dawn is the love of Buffy's life as the end of s7 proves.

How exactly does the end of s7 prove that? S7 Buffy was all about Spike.

Quote

Come on, how about when Buffy and Dawn went shopping to return all of Dawn's shoplifted items? Or when she and Faith make up? Or Buffy's birthday before it turned into the inevitable disaster (love the little look B&D give one another as they wave the others goodbye, they're not going anywhere because this is where they belong together)? Or when they welcome Willow home?

You said "every time", yet these are isolated incidents.

[Joe Hellandback]

11 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

How exactly does the end of s7 prove that? S7 Buffy was all about Spike.

You said "every time", yet these are isolated incidents.

The letter, 'I love you and everything I do is for you'. Not to mention her speech to Giles at the end of 5. But you're right about Spike. Buffy is happier in s7, especially in eps like 'Him'. 

[Jack Shaftoe]

Words are cheap. Buffy said an awful lot of stupid thing in S7. To me, her actions spoke very loudly and indicated that she couldn't care less about Dawn. Or anyone not named Spike for that matter.

[Dee]

It's hard to fault Buffy, seeing as the sun, quite literally, shone out of Spike's ass in Season 7.

[Halting Hex]

Hey, you-know-who-you-are!  I missed you when you left us at TWoP!  *waves*

One thing I never was clear about, do you 'ship Buffy/Dawn romantically, or only as sisters?  (Hey, I'd still take Duffy over Spuffy, but that's just me.)

3 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

To me, [Buffy's] actions [in S7] spoke very loudly and indicated that she couldn't care less about Dawn. Or anyone not named Spike for that matter.

To be fair to Buffy, she was suffering from one hellofa depression and I'm not sure that she particularly gave a damn about Spike, either.  It's not as if their scenes had any spark, and she ends up facilitating his suicide, after all.  Not that this made the season any more enjoyable to watch, IMO.

As noted above, her eyes really only lit up when she saw Angel.  Which means it sucks to be Giles, since she seemed happy to see him twice (Flooded, Grave) in S6.  This year, not so much.  Oh, well.

[Delphi]

On 5/3/2018 at 10:39 PM, slf said:

Fuck Faith for also doing the "you should let me have a say" thing

I don't think that's a fair comment in regards to Faith.   Faith didn't come back too Sunnydale to take Buffy's place she came to help.  She refused to go back to the vineyard.   That wasn't unreasonable.   Of course the plot dictated that Buffy was right that something was there and that Faith would lead them into disaster but that's just happenstance.   Faith was absolutely right in not wanting to go back there to have them all killed or beaten again.   And,  because  I have to mention it,  she was damn nice about how she phrased it considering an hour before Buffy had assaulted her because she didn't like what Faith had to say. 

[Jack Shaftoe]

Quote

Hey, you-know-who-you-are!  I missed you when you left us at TWoP!

I think I remember both of you from TwoP. Good times.

Quote

To be fair to Buffy, she was suffering from one hellofa depression and I'm not sure that she particularly gave a damn about Spike, either.  It's not as if their scenes had any spark, and she ends up facilitating his suicide, after all.

I think she was supposed to care deeply about Spike, only, like everything else that season, the execution was so botched that the opposite message came across quite often. Like the whole trigger debacle. "Oh, I care about Spike. Some powerful entity is mind-controlling him? La-la-la, I can't hear you!".

[slf]

12 hours ago, Delphi said:

I don't think that's a fair comment in regards to Faith.   Faith didn't come back too Sunnydale to take Buffy's place she came to help. 

I never said she didn't come back to help. I said she made it seem like Buffy was some dictator by not passing around a mic for everyone to speak their piece but the second Faith was given command she turned around and shut everyone down. Buffy's not the leader who gets to make the rules, other people don't have to just shut the hell up and let her do her job but once Faith is leader...them's the rules?

[Halting Hex]

On May 19, 2018 at 10:00 AM, Joe Hellandback said:

What exactly did [Buffy] lie to Dawnie about?

[OT-S6 talk] She was shagging Spike left, right and center without letting Dawn think they were any more than passing friends.  When Dawn is having her crisis in that very episode [OaFA], Buffy and Spike are busy staring into each other's eyes down the hall.  And, on a more prosaic note, the reason Dawn's leftover Doublemeat food is "smooshed" the next episode is because it was in Buffy's backpack when Spike was doing her…on her front lawn…at about 8.30 on a school night…with Dawn in the house. Ew.

More lies of omission than commission, I'll grant, but still not exactly an open and honest sisterly bond. (And that's not even getting into the "heeeeaven" thing.  How come we never got to see Dawn, who as we know from Forever has a deep and painful need to know that Joyce is okay, ask Buffy if she saw their mom, how she knows it was really heaven if she didn't, etc., etc.?  [Because "heeeeeaven" is just a plot device to divide Buffy from the Scoobies and justify Spuffy, that's why.  Gotta get those vampire-'ship ratings back somehow, you know.  Angel's on a whole other network, now. [/bitter]])[/S6 OT]

Edited May 22, 2018 by Halting Hex

[Joe Hellandback]

In many ways she was just protecting Dawn from the big bad world. I do agree with you that Dawn must have asked at some stage about Joyce but that was probably offscreen. 

[Joe Hellandback]

14 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Gold-lamé-vest guy is a SHS student (we see him at the school) and only becomes a "vampire" because of the spell.  Loophole enough for me.  (And, for all we know, he's been to Buffy's house in his human guise, before this.)

Interesting, I never considered that. I was always surprised we never saw it as Angel?

[Halting Hex]

Spoiler

Well, the obvious reason for never seeing First!Angel is the actor-availability issue.  Not just David's shooting schedule, but the WB's unwillingness to allow for crossovers, bar the very last few.

But First!Willow would have none of those problems, as Alyson Hannigan is the only cast member, bar SMG, with a perfect attendance record; 144 out of 144.  (And yes, I'm still annoyed by Nick Brendon being left out of CwDP.)  Perhaps having pinched pennies by turning Willow "evil" in S6 rather than paying for an actual villain (no, I won't count the nerds), the show was reluctant to damage the character further by having the First take her form…but that's outside of the story.  Inside the story, the opportunity was certainly there.

[Halting Hex]

5 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

Why should the First have appeared as Willow though? It only appeared in the form of the dead and Willow never died. 

She technically dies in Halloween; it's how she goes all ghostly. (Joe's and my posts originally appeared in the Halloween thread; it's why my post was spoilered for S7 discussion.)  Yes, it was a spell, but the heart attack Willow suffers on that front porch certainly looks as though it feels real to her.  Good enough for The First's purposes?  Tough to say, but if they'd gone that way, I wouldn't have objected.

Edited June 16, 2018 by Halting Hex

[illdoc]

7 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

I know, the days of Jesse, Jenny and Kendra were long gone, but it would have been amazing if they had been able to bring them back to torment Xander, Giles and Buffy

I believe I heard that they thought about Jesse/Xander in CwDP. If so, then there would have been no Willow in CwDP. I also believe that the actress playing Jenny became a devout Christian and refused to be the personification of Evil (yes, she was the First the last time she was seen, but she was very upset about it), so there would be no Jenny as the First tormenting Giles.

[secnarf]

1 hour ago, illdoc said:

I believe I heard that they thought about Jesse/Xander in CwDP. If so, then there would have been no Willow in CwDP. I also believe that the actress playing Jenny became a devout Christian and refused to be the personification of Evil (yes, she was the First the last time she was seen, but she was very upset about it), so there would be no Jenny as the First tormenting Giles.

I didn't know this about Robia LaMorte and I just googled it. You're not kidding.  (Here she is using her married name)

She has a video on that site where she talks a bit about becoming a Christian three months after starting Buffy. If that is true, she would have been Christian in Amends as well, no?

[Delphi]

@nosleepforme I think that the scene with Faith and the mayor was one of the better uses of the first, as well.   Similarly,  even though it was a different actress I think robin's scene with his mother was good.   

Wood's and Faith's conversatin afterwards really brought the depth from that scene.   That it was essentially that person,  that it smells like that person.   It could've been a very good concept with actor availability permitting. 

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎16‎/‎06‎/‎2018 at 8:40 PM, Delphi said:

@nosleepforme I think that the scene with Faith and the mayor was one of the better uses of the first, as well.   Similarly,  even though it was a different actress I think robin's scene with his mother was good.   

Wood's and Faith's conversatin afterwards really brought the depth from that scene.   That it was essentially that person,  that it smells like that person.   It could've been a very good concept with actor availability permitting. 

Yeah, the emotional resonance was there and that's what really mattered, I always wanted one of the family of Spike's old victim's to show up and how the Scoobs would deal with that. 

[lembergwatcher]

They should have published a book with the complete collection of Buffy's "motivating" speeches ;-) 

Fifteen years have passed, yet few questions remain. Do we really have to be this naive to believe the First knew nothing 'bout the reasons it came out to play (Scoobies' dirty little secret since S.06's Bargaining and After Life)? Did it ever occur to the First that the whole "magic has consequences" thing could be used for Evil's own benefit? Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's strange at best that an important question like "What is responsible for letting this happen?" was raised only once. What did Giles tell Buffy and the others after conversation  with Beljoxa's Eye anyway? How did Buffy plan on turning the inexperienced Potentials into real army ("We just became an army, blah-blah-blah"... Marti, Doug, you could put some more effort into writing, you know) while having almost zero military experience and never even bothering to read some books on the subject? And did it make any sense to portray Spike as the hero and martyr for the cause

 

only to refute the myth in S.05 of

Angel?

Edited August 20, 2018 by lembergwatcher

[Halting Hex]

Would anyone with a better memory/a deeper sense of masochism than I care to compile a list of how often Spike's SOOOOOOOOOUL is referenced this season?  I'm sure it only felt infinite…

[lembergwatcher]

1 hour ago, Halting Hex said:

Would anyone with a better memory/a deeper sense of masochism than I care to compile a list of how often Spike's SOOOOOOOOOUL is referenced this season?  I'm sure it only felt infinite…

Apparently, not that much, since

Spoiler

they decided to transfer the bleached "goodness" to Wolfram & Hart's L. A. office. Angel's S.04 was bad enough, but Joss decided to make things worse.

As for season 7, I would also like to know how the heck does the concept of First Evil relate to the concept of Jasmine (or vise versa)? They had (almost) similar agenda, but used (slightly) different methods. Were both of them even aware of each other's existence? And how exactly were they supposed to deal with the problem of power sharing or something?

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎26‎/‎08‎/‎2018 at 11:32 PM, lembergwatcher said:

Apparently, not that much, since

  Hide contents

they decided to transfer the bleached "goodness" to Wolfram & Hart's L. A. office. Angel's S.04 was bad enough, but Joss decided to make things worse.

As for season 7, I would also like to know how the heck does the concept of First Evil relate to the concept of Jasmine (or vise versa)? They had (almost) similar agenda, but used (slightly) different methods. Were both of them even aware of each other's existence? And how exactly were they supposed to deal with the problem of power sharing or something?

I always took it they were rivals, The First Evil was just that and out to destroy mankind, Jasmine wants to save mankind but through tyranny, hence why the First Evil's assassin tries to kill Faith in prison and why the First possibly sends the apparition of Darla to try to stop Connor?

[Jediknight]

2 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

I always took it they were rivals, The First Evil was just that and out to destroy mankind, Jasmine wants to save mankind but through tyranny, hence why the First Evil's assassin tries to kill Faith in prison and why the First possibly sends the apparition of Darla to try to stop Connor?

I never thought that was The First.  They told us that the Powers That Be sent Darla to Connor to try to get him to stop.  That was actually Darla trying to save her son from going down that path.  I don't think it was a lie.

Edited September 1, 2018 by Jediknight

[lembergwatcher]

Ah, the season 7... Still brings a lot of pain...

 

[lembergwatcher]

[Halting Hex]

That's a very un-Rachel-Bilson-y Rachel Bilson as Colleen.  Sometimes they just take bit of time to flower.  

(Rachel Bilson is 37 now. FFS.)

[Joe Hellandback]

37 minutes ago, Halting Hex said:

That's a very un-Rachel-Bilson-y Rachel Bilson as Colleen.  Sometimes they just take bit of time to flower.  

(Rachel Bilson is 37 now. FFS.)

She's still a sweetie but you're right, I didn't recognise her on HIMYM, someone had to points it out to me for my Buffy alumni list. 

11 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Untrue, Eliza will return for Dollhouse! Plus SMG is rumoured to cameo in Dr Horrible.

[Halting Hex]

And Alexis Denisof as Thanos's henchman in Avengers.

[Halting Hex]

While I was hunting for bitter quotes about Xander's lost eye, I found something I'd written about the dichotomous nature of the show in general, at this point, so if you'll pardon the copy+paste:

Quote

when Joss then went out and said that S6 was something that they wanted to do for Aly and Nick, I knew right then that they'd be irrelevant in S7. By making the W/X ending for S6 completely exclude Buffy, ME was in effect saying that there were two separate stories—Buffy's (Spike, Dawn, Big Bads, Potentials) and Those Puny Humans, who ended up no more than background music in the Buffy-centric S7.

Ironic that people sometimes talk about Kennedy as if she was dating Willow to get into the "inner circle" when, story-wise, the W/K hookup was probably of more use in keeping Willow at least spotlight-adjacent. JMO.

Of course, as it turned out, I was hardly being original, here.  Here's Set saying rather much the same thing, about a year before I did:

Quote

It was [Spike] being marginalized, and yet still featured, that made it like two shows. Buffy and her amazing-but-mostly-forgotten-friends, and the Buffy-and-Spike comedy hour. Since they couldn't ever seem to tie these two shows together, and have Buffy, Spike & the Scoobies, all one big dysfunctional family, it seemed that they had to tear the show in half, and neglect either Spike (the Scoobs go off and save the world without him) or the Scoobs (Buffy and Spike go off and have whacky fun, while the Scoobs get bored and take up eating too much, magic addiction, horseback riding in England and shoplifting in a pathetic cry for attention).

It was always a bit of a problem for the show (Angel wasn't a perfectly-integrated boyfriend, either; it's just that the show finessed that problem by turning him evil before it got too grating), but the success they had in walking this tightrope for 14 pre-Angelus episodes in S1-S2 hardly meant they could keep it going for the far-longer nightmare that was Spuffy.  Even the attempted twists (the rape, "he has a SOOOOOOOUL now") were just obvious attempts to create "obstacles" for the "forbidden love" couple; Spike was always all over Buffy's show, whether he was in her panties or not.

And it just went on and on and on and on.  Somebody stake me, please.

Edited November 25, 2018 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

Aside from usual Spike-centric shit and Giles/Wood stupidity, just think about it: Buffy lets Willow, her supposed "most powerful weapon" (!), go to LA on her own despite The First possibly monitoring the gang's activity and his cronies roaming around. And screw the fact that Willow's presence is crucial for the safety of everyone in Casa Summers. (I don't think Buffy starts seeing Willow that way only in Dirty Girls, after all).

The all-seeing First Sucker either knows nothing about Willow's special place among Buffy's people or is just too incompetent to do anything about the whole thing, and thus Willow goes there and back safely. I guess The First has his day off while the Bringers are striking for the recognition of their union or something until Caleb came to town.

I don't know what is more conspicuous: The First's stupidity or Buffy's (and the gang's) lack of concern regarding Willow?

[Halting Hex]

On what planet does the idea of Faith breaking out of prison, after her multiple and manifold crimes in S3/S4, qualify as "good news" in Buffy's mind?  Why on Earth would Willow think that?

I mean, Buffy went to LA and nearly fought Angel, full-on, to make sure that Faith was locked up;  "No.  No chance. Jail."  Is Willow expecting a happy dance at the idea that this violent felon has broken out of prison, and might soon be back within possible Dawn-killing range?

Yes, Faith's another set of fists.  Which won't help much against the First anyhow.  And it's not as if Faith can't be lured to the Dark Side…

Edited December 28, 2018 by Halting Hex
Removed spoiler tags

[lembergwatcher]

On what planet does the idea of giving Angel his undeserved fourth (?) chance qualify as something worth the risk either? 

[Halting Hex]

[OT]Fifth chance, actually.

1.  A normal life, back in Galway past.

Killed and vamped, but… 

2.  …in 1898, the gypsies return his soul to plague his thoughts.

Loses his soul due to the joys of Buffy-muffy, but…

3.  …soul restored by Willow/some outside force (Acum!), albeit at not the best moment.

Gets sucked into Hell (hey, better him than the whole world) for a few centuries of torment, but…

4.  …pops out, naked and sweaty, thanks to Buffy (inadvertently) using the power of the Claddagh to call him forth.

Voluntarily has his soul removed (! WTF??), but…

5.  …figures Willow (or someone) will be able to clean up his mess, as in the past. [/OT]

Edited January 1, 2019 by Halting Hex
Removed spoiler tags

[Joe Hellandback]

On 12/24/2018 at 9:11 PM, Halting Hex said:

On what planet does the idea of Faith breaking out of prison, after her multiple and manifold crimes in S3/S4, qualify as "good news" in Buffy's mind?  Why on Earth would Willow think that?

I mean, Buffy went to LA and nearly fought Angel, full-on, to make sure that Faith was locked up;  "No.  No chance. Jail."  Is Willow expecting a happy dance at the idea that this violent felon has broken out of prison, and might soon be back within possible Dawn-killing range?

Yes, Faith's another set of fists.  Which won't help much against the First anyhow.  And it's not as if Faith can't be lured to the Dark Side…

 

Faith is another Slayer, a supremely talented one who can train the girls and take over if anything happens to Buffy. Plus we all want to see them kiss and make up....and more!

Willow is powerful enough to take care of herself and the First is temporarily in remission, beside they have other soldiers such as, oh I don't know, Spike? 

[lembergwatcher]

I don't understand why unleashing The First (albeit involuntary) turned out to be consequences-free for Willow and Xander. The massacre of Watchers and potential Slayers together with another Apocalypse attempt should be considered a very serious offence, whether we like it or not. Faith killed a few people and had to spend several years behind bars. W/X ressurected Buffy thus triggering the process that left lots of people dead and Sunnydale wiped out, and no one gave a damn. One might argue that Willow hitting rock bottom and then going bad, Xander losing his eye or Tara and Anya losing their lives were something of a "Karma is a bitch" variety, but I can find no evidence any of these events and Buffy's ressurection were connected in one way or another.  

Spoiler

From what I know about so-called comic continuation, both Buffy's original Slayerettes continued to work with Buffy and the rest like nothing ever happened.

I wonder what exactly did Giles tell Buffy after his conversation with Beljoxa's Eye and what did Buffy for her part tell the Potentials? Maybe the truth wasn't such a big deal for Buffy herself, but it sure as hell was for the SiTs. 

[DanaMB]

So I’m not reading the two pages in this thread, because I’m not done watching, but I just had to vent. Three episodes in to season 7 and I’m about to give up. I didn’t watch when the show originally aired, but I’ve been on leave and decided to binge it. I didn’t mind season 6 (season 4 was my least favorite), I liked Spike and despite preferring Angel big time, I didn’t mind Buffy and Spike together until the rape. But if I have to watch 22 eps  of angsty, crazy, rambling, ranting Spike I’m going to skip to the final episodes. Plus, I’m just bored. 

[Joe Hellandback]

On 11/9/2019 at 10:44 PM, DanaMB said:

So I’m not reading the two pages in this thread, because I’m not done watching, but I just had to vent. Three episodes in to season 7 and I’m about to give up. I didn’t watch when the show originally aired, but I’ve been on leave and decided to binge it. I didn’t mind season 6 (season 4 was my least favorite), I liked Spike and despite preferring Angel big time, I didn’t mind Buffy and Spike together until the rape. But if I have to watch 22 eps  of angsty, crazy, rambling, ranting Spike I’m going to skip to the final episodes. Plus, I’m just bored. 

Oh a newbie! Wonderful! Why not tell us what you think of every ep as you go? S7 starts off slow but gets much better, some stellar eps coming up, you'll laugh and cry, guaranteed. I know what you mean, I nearly quit the show after Bargaining but was so glad I stuck with it.  

[DanaMB]

I ended up sticking with it and I’m glad I did. I actually read all the episode threads here as I watched the entire series. I think I agreed with you more often than not, though I wasn’t a huge Dawn fan. I’m also glad Buffy and Spike didn’t end up together because I am a huge Angel fan. (I’m on season 5 of that show and I’m missing the old eps already. I don’t like this big corporation stuff. I read your reviews of those eps, too on the archived forum.)

Seems I struggle with the last season of both shows. I’ll stick with Angel because I’m a huge fan even though I don’t like the changes since I’m glad I stuck with the last season of Buffy. 

[Joe Hellandback]

On 11/13/2019 at 5:31 AM, DanaMB said:

I ended up sticking with it and I’m glad I did. I actually read all the episode threads here as I watched the entire series. I think I agreed with you more often than not, though I wasn’t a huge Dawn fan. I’m also glad Buffy and Spike didn’t end up together because I am a huge Angel fan. (I’m on season 5 of that show and I’m missing the old eps already. I don’t like this big corporation stuff. I read your reviews of those eps, too on the archived forum.)

Seems I struggle with the last season of both shows. I’ll stick with Angel because I’m a huge fan even though I don’t like the changes since I’m glad I stuck with the last season of Buffy. 

You have to see it out, it is epic. 

[lembergwatcher]

On 12/25/2018 at 4:11 AM, Halting Hex said:

On what planet does the idea of Faith breaking out of prison, after her multiple and manifold crimes in S3/S4, qualify as "good news" in Buffy's mind?  Why on Earth would Willow think that?

I mean, Buffy went to LA and nearly fought Angel, full-on, to make sure that Faith was locked up;  "No.  No chance. Jail."  Is Willow expecting a happy dance at the idea that this violent felon has broken out of prison, and might soon be back within possible Dawn-killing range?

Yes, Faith's another set of fists.  Which won't help much against the First anyhow.  And it's not as if Faith can't be lured to the Dark Side…

Chances are it's not just some OOC bullshit on Willow's behalf. Maybe the gang was so fed up with General Von Buffy's "autocratic ambitions" Willow decided they needed some kind of counterbalance in case Buffy's "everyone sucks but me" attitude got out of control. What if Willow thought they were in need of someone who could defy Buffy, i.e.  someone in the same weight category?

W/X/K attempt to talk some sense into Buffy in Get it Done failed because none of them was strong enough or had a charisma/willpower to oppose Buffy. Kennedy had some sort of charisma but lacked the Slayer strength. Willow had her magic, but didn't want to use it against her supposed best friend for obvious reasons. Even Spike who was physically stronger than anyone else in Casa Summers at the moment didn't want to antagonize his love interest.

Therefore Faith wasn't just "another set of fists". She was probably useless against the First, but she could help talking some sense into Buffy in one way or another. Notice how Buffy had her way despite X/W meek protests in Get it Done and then how the "Mutiny on the Bounty" started the moment Faith said going back to the vineyard was a bad idea in Empty Places.