Caitlyn Jenner: Call Me Caitlyn

[Mu Shu]

It's kind of sad that as a man Bruce could walk around in putter pants and sweat shirts and be perfectly comfortable. But as a woman he feels pressure to spend all that time on his appearance, hair and makeup. I guess he'll become a kard carrying Kardashian with his own glam squad. I'm hoping his view on being a woman goes deeper than that. That she'll have some intellectual curiosity and interest in things other than whether or not her ass looks fat in a certain dress and how to eat a salad without ruining her lipstick.

Eating a salad without smearing their lipstick, that's bush league.   Peggy Hill can eat a whole sandwich without ever touching her lips to the bread. 

[Artsda]

Caitlyn Jenner Signs With CAA Speakers

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/caitlyn-jenner-signs-caa-speakers-799906?utm_source=twitter

http://variety.com/2015/biz/news/caitlyn-jenner-signs-with-caa-1201511660/

[millennium]

Surgically-altered, airbrushed famewhore trumps heroic college basketball player with terminal brain cancer.

 

Anger over Caitlyn Jenner being chosen over Lauren Hill for ESPY courage award

 

http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2015/06/03/anger-over-caitlyn-jenner-being-chosen-over-lauren-hill-for-espy-courage-award/

 

And this piece in the Washington Post reports that no other candidates were even considered for the Ashe courage award.   (Big surprise.)

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/early-lead/wp/2015/06/02/no-caitlyn-jenner-was-not-picked-ahead-of-noah-galloway-for-the-espy-award-for-courage/

[xls]

Surgically-altered, airbrushed famewhore trumps heroic college basketball player with terminal brain cancer.

 

 

 

 

And this piece in the Washington Post reports that no other candidates were even considered for the Ashe courage award.   (Big surprise.)

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/early-lead/wp/2015/06/02/no-caitlyn-jenner-was-not-picked-ahead-of-noah-galloway-for-the-espy-award-for-courage/

Thats just crazy! 

My true, sincere gut feeling is that Bruce becoming a woman may be a hoax. Only time will tell or convince me. The Kardashians will do anything for a buck and everything they do is phony BS, that's why I don't trust them or Jenner.

[Cocoa Puff]

I don't know if anyone else has considered this but I just had a thought that probably none of the Jenner kids or Kardashian step kids really support Cait, i bet they had this big family meeting like Kris had when they divorced and was shown on the show to get on the "same page" so that they're supportive in the press and so that they won't appear that they're not accepting of someone that's transgender. 

 

I don't know how supportive/accepting of my parent/close relative after living practically thier whole life as one gender with to me no inklings of wanting to be a different gender seemingly overnight say i am a man/woman would be a very hard pill to swallow.

 

Not that I would not be supportive/accepting in the end but this whole stepford wive type of acceptance seems fishy. 

[howmanywords]

Perez Hilton said on my local news earlier than she is getting the full blown gender reassignment surgery this summer. So anyone who is still convinced that every single thing this family does is fake, if Caitlyn takes off her clothes and her penis is gone will you be convinced then? I'm sorry but as fake as this family could be I dont believe for a minute this is all a joke.  I know "Bruce" is widely known to be a shitty father and the Kardashians are pretty much considered the anti-christ but I will never believe she would intentionally pull a prank knowing her kids could react very badly (and no I dont believe Kendall, Kylie, etc are in on a joke). For as much as the kids are showing support, I think Kendall and Kylie deep down may not be handling it as well as they are on the outside. Kendall is now using for her Twitter profile pic a pic of "Bruce" with her and Kylie when they were very young.  Its a show of support but IMO I truly believe that's how she wants to remember her dad.

Edited June 4, 2015 by howmanywords

[jonesingjay]

Perez Hilton said on my local news earlier than she is getting the full blown gender reassignment surgery this summer. So anyone who is still convinced that every single thing this family does is fake, if Caitlyn takes off her clothes and her penis is gone will you be convinced then? I'm sorry but as fake as this family could be I dont believe for a minute this is all a joke.  I know "Bruce" is widely known to be a shitty father and the Kardashians are pretty much considered the anti-christ but I will never believe she would intentionally pull a prank knowing her kids could react very badly (and no I dont believe Kendall, Kylie, etc are in on a joke). For as much as the kids are showing support, I think Kendall and Kylie deep down may not be handling it as well as they are on the outside. Kendall is now using for her Twitter profile pic a pic of "Bruce" with her and Kylie when they were very young.  Its a show of support but IMO I truly believe that's how she wants to remember her dad.

 

I'm of the opinion that this isn't a play for the Kardashian brand. I'm frankly surprised that people have expressed the opinion that they don't believe Caitlyn is actually transitioning. I do think her transition from Bruce into a woman is genuine. Even if she were to document herself having srs I wouldn't be surprised if some people still didn't believe this was actually true. She shouldn't have to prove it.  

[xls]

I'm of the opinion that this isn't a play for the Kardashian brand. I'm frankly surprised that people have expressed the opinion that they don't believe Caitlyn is actually transitioning. I do think her transition from Bruce into a woman is genuine. Even if she were to document herself having srs I wouldn't be surprised if some people still didn't believe this was actually true. She shouldn't have to prove it.  

Well, not everyone thinks alike-thank God-and I'm proud that I can still question things and form my own opinion. I hope others will support my right to do so.

[jonesingjay]

Well, not everyone thinks alike-thank God-and I'm proud that I can still question things and form my own opinion. I hope others will support my right to do so.

 

I might not understand where someone is coming from, in the same way they don't understand or agree with my perspective. We all have the right to our opinions, which has the potential for interesting discussions to develop between people of differing opinions. 

[millennium]

In my opinion, if Jenner had any class, or respect for fellow athletes, the award would have been politely declined with the suggestion that there must be others who are more deserving.  

 

Of course, this award was probably all arranged months ago by Jenner's agents and ESPN in coordination with Vanity Fair to be the "first public appearance" leaving ESPN ample opportunity to sell advertising space at a premium.    Especially since reportedly no other candidates were ever considered.    I suspect nothing is as simple or as sudden as they would have us believe.   Probably a similar brand of planning went into this as product placement in movies.

Edited June 4, 2015 by millennium

[Artsda]

The award had to have been pre-arranged since Caitlyn and the journalist discussed the award and Caitlyn wanting all 10 kids in attendance. I wouldn't be surprised if ESPN already knows which of the kids would be in attendance and they may have known before they announced Caitlyn as the award winner.

[Kromm]

I am not sure that it is fair to say Caitlyn is pressured to wear makeup. I agree that there is enormous pressure on women to strive to look their best, particularly those in the media, but it may be that Kaitlyn feels relief at getting to do this after not being able to for so long. Even if she criticizes how women are viewed in the media, it is kind of unfair to expect her to ignore the pressures. What celebrity woman would go on the cover of Vanity Fair these days without photoshop, makeup, or hair styling?

It's not fair to say that, IMO, because at least in Bruce Jenner's specific case it appears to be part and parcel of the desire for the transition to Caitlyn in the first place. I know there's no single route to being trans and they aren't going to follow the same road map, but that applies in both directions.  Some just want to be female because that's how they've always felt, but for others the "trappings" are part and parcel of that and with them it seems somewhat hypocritical to project it as unfair pressure on them, when it was part of the appeal for those specific people in the first place.

[millennium]

It's not fair to say that, IMO, because at least in Bruce Jenner's specific case it appears to be part and parcel of the desire for the transition to Caitlyn in the first place. I know there's no single route to being trans and they aren't going to follow the same road map, but that applies in both directions.  Some just want to be female because that's how they've always felt, but for others the "trappings" are part and parcel of that and with them it seems somewhat hypocritical to project it as unfair pressure on them, when it was part of the appeal for those specific people in the first place.

I agree -- within reason.   Jenner's presentation in Vanity Fair is full of problems, IMHO.   Jenner's attempting to pass as someone significantly younger than 65.    Has anyone seen a cis-gendered 65-year-old woman on the cover of Vanity Fair in recent memory?  Ever, in fact?   And in her underwear?   Is the Jenner cover telling the world that a 65-year-old female can only look good if she's painted and corseted and made to look like someone 20 years younger?   And never mind how it made genetic women feel.    I can only imagine the dismay those photos caused among middle-aged or senior transgendered people who don't have the money or the Hollywood support system or Annie Liebowitz at their disposal.   What message did it send them?  "You'll never look this good because you can't afford it."  Or perhaps "The public won't accept you unless you look this good."   That's a fear transgender people live with, and Jenner did nothing but reaffirm it for them.

 

I really have to wonder if the same people throwing bouquets at Jenner's feet now would be doing the same if the result had turned out looking more like this, which is the fate of many transgendered people in our society today:

 

 

Would they be embracing him as readily, or would he be the butt of late night comics' jokes and cruel internet memes?

 

My guess is the latter.   In a big way.    IMHO, Jenner only made life more difficult for transgender people with that fantasy look-how-wonderful-I-am  photo shoot.

 

I suspect the reality lurking behind those professional photos will come to light as soon as the paparazzi start catching Jenner in candid, unposed shots, without the photoshopping, the airbrushing and all the other magic that created those images.   

Edited June 4, 2015 by millennium

[Snarryfan]

My guess is the latter. In a big way. IMHO, Jenner only made life more difficult for transgender people with that fantasy look-how-wonderful-I-am photo shoot.

Or it will cause people to write to their Congressman and make all plastic surgeries requested by trans people to be covered by Medicare and Insurance--which they should be. Laverne Cox works it in her photo shoots and as she has said, it's fantasy and part and parcel of Hollywood. What image wouldn't have offended you. Also trans people have difficulty in this world because of small minded bigots, "christians," and people who spend all their time policing how people look and telling them that they are wrong and bad for their gender presentation.

As for the Ashe award, not to be mean, but the young lady with the brain tumor is no longer alive so I think there should be more anger directed towards a health care system that couldn't keep her alive versus a made-up award.

Edited June 4, 2015 by OnceSane

[funkopop]

I guess transgendered women will just be getting the same experience genetically born women have been getting since forever. The average woman doesn't look like and can't afford to look like the women put on covers of magazines so welcome to the club.

Edited June 4, 2015 by funkopop

[millennium]

Or it will cause people to write to their Congressman and make all plastic surgeries requested by trans people to be covered by Medicare and Insurance--which they should be. Laverne Cox works it in her photo shoots and as she has said, it's fantasy and part and parcel of Hollywood. Again, did you want her to look like a diesel dyke? What image wouldn't have offended you. Also trans people have difficulty in this world because of small minded bigots, "christians," and people who spend all their time policing how people look and telling them that they are wrong and bad for their gender presentation.

As for the Ashe award, not to be mean, but the young lady with the brain tumor is no longer alive so I think there should be more anger directed towards a health care system that couldn't keep her alive versus a made-up award.

Thank you for starting my day with a chuckle. All plastic surgeries requested by transgender people covered by insurance. Transgender people can't even get their hormones covered by insurance. They can't consult a doctor about starting HRT (hormone replacement therapy) and have it covered by insurance, never mind cosmetic surgeries. Under many if not most insurance plans transgender people can't even get paid visits to a psychologist to discuss their conflict unless the doctor writes it up under some code other than gender dysphoria.

I admire your optimism in thinking Americans are so charitable that they would write to their representatives out of genuine concern for the transgendered, but I contend that Americans are on the side of the transgendered only when the individual is rich, famous or beautiful. Otherwise the majority of Americans don't want to see the transgendered, don't want them working in their schools, don't want them in their families, don't even want them using their public bathrooms.

I think it's naive to posit that transgender difficulties stem from small-minded bigots. They stem from a society with thousands upon thousands of years of deeply ingrained ideas of what it means to be male and female, of longstanding traditional gender roles, etc.

Edited June 4, 2015 by OnceSane

[Kromm]

Thank you for starting my day with a laugh.   All plastic surgeries requested by transgender people covered by insurance.   That's rich!  Transgender people can't even get their hormones covered by insurance.   They can't consult a doctor about starting HRT (hormone replacement therapy) and have it covered by insurance, never mind cosmetic surgeries.  Under many if not most insurance plans transgender people can't even get paid visits to a psychologist to discuss their conflict unless the doctor writes it up under some code other than gender dysphoria.

I'm fairly strongly pro-trans, but personally I gotta draw a line at the idea that ALL trans surgery should be legally mandated as covered.  Not that it's elective surgery--in fact battling the idea that it, that's a key part of the struggle I know--but we live in a world where people with terminal illnesses don't even get a good part of their procedures covered.  So in the spectrum of importance, shaking out the bugs in saving actual lives probably needs to be ironed out, before any kind of blanket approval of other kinds of non-life threatening surgeries--even if their true importance isn't properly understood by most.

The best path, as usual, probably lies somewhere in the middle... but people with causes typically don't dare THINK in the middle zone, because of course you have to grab for the edges because you know you're going to have to compromise eventually anyway.  

[millennium]

Ironically, the only individuals in America having their transition requirements and health care paid for are prisoners.

[kathe5133]

Thats just crazy! 

My true, sincere gut feeling is that Bruce becoming a woman may be a hoax. Only time will tell or convince me. The Kardashians will do anything for a buck and everything they do is phony BS, that's why I don't trust them or Jenner.

Yes! Yes!  Thank you!  My thoughts exactly!  It feels so..... wrong. 

[kathe5133]

I could quote everyone, but that would be silly.  I agree with almost all!  And if I don't agree, so what, love that everyone can state their opinion, but so glad to see many feel as I do.  My real life friends are falling all over themselves to be "politically correct" and won't even entertain my comments.  I have no problem with transgender. It is a real issue.  But, I feel Bruce/Caitlyn is not real.  The whole "Bruce is transitioning" mystery, the laryngeal shave, the Botox, the plastic surgery back in the, what was it 80's, the abandoned wives and children.  This man, Bruce Jenner, was an asshole.  There is no other way to say it.  Ok, now she's Caitlyn.  Why so public?  Why?  I don't understand famewhoredomness, so maybe that's why I don't understand.  But honestly, I believe there is something deeply disturbing about an individual who feels every moment of their life should be lived publicly. 

 

And, she doesn't look beautiful.  She looks like a 67 year old man in drag. 

[xls]

I could quote everyone, but that would be silly.  I agree with almost all!  And if I don't agree, so what, love that everyone can state their opinion, but so glad to see many feel as I do.  My real life friends are falling all over themselves to be "politically correct" and won't even entertain my comments.  I have no problem with transgender. It is a real issue.  But, I feel Bruce/Caitlyn is not real.  The whole "Bruce is transitioning" mystery, the laryngeal shave, the Botox, the plastic surgery back in the, what was it 80's, the abandoned wives and children.  This man, Bruce Jenner, was an asshole.  There is no other way to say it.  Ok, now she's Caitlyn.  Why so public?  Why?  I don't understand famewhoredomness, so maybe that's why I don't understand.  But honestly, I believe there is something deeply disturbing about an individual who feels every moment of their life should be lived publicly. 

 

And, she doesn't look beautiful.  She looks like a 67 year old man in drag. 

Transitioning, in itself, does not automatically make her a saint or a hero, imo.That's my point.

 "Catlyn" definitely needs more positive woman role models than Kim or Kris; they can only teach her how to dress like a slut.

[nexxie]

Transitioning, in itself, does not automatically make her a saint or a hero, imo.That's my point.

 "Catlyn" definitely needs more positive woman role models than Kim or Kris; they can only teach her how to dress like a slut.

I was happy to read that Caitlyn has included daughter Casey at her intimate girls' evenings - Casey and her mother could both be good additions.

[iwasish]

I read a couple of quotes from Bruce and Casey about the difference in their relationship now vs before and I really was put off by Bruce's remark that  he was a poor distant father to his first 4 kids because he was unhappy within himself.    But he managed to man up and be a great dad  to Kylie and Kendall and to Kris's 4 kids?

What the hell? If I were one of those 4 older kids, I don't know if I'd be so forgiving, unless, they are so starved for their dad's affection that they are willing to overlook his failings as a dad.  I wonder though how long the honeymoon will last. Is Caitlyn really all that different than Bruce? Or is she just so caught up in this new chapter of her life and eventually when all the attention and accolades fade will she slide right back to her old personality.

[Artsda]

 

I read a couple of quotes from Bruce and Casey about the difference in their relationship now vs before and I really was put off by Bruce's remark that  he was a poor distant father to his first 4 kids because he was unhappy within himself.    But he managed to man up and be a great dad  to Kylie and Kendall and to Kris's 4 kids?

I don't get how the 4 can even believe that when he was such a great dad to the 6.  Khloe for 25 years etc... It just doesn't add up. Like Brandon saying Bruce didn't attend their highschool graduation, yet Bruce was there for all the 6's school events and even drove them their everyday, had the video camera out on their first day. How does the 4 look at that and think he was unhappy, when he was the proud daddy sending Kim and Khloe off on their first days of school with a camcorder?

 

For the 4's sake I do hope they can get a relationship now, but I think it could be they're really wanting one thinking Bruce and Caitlyn are 2 separate people with a personality transplant and with transgenders I don't think that's the case. It's the body that didn't match the outside, not their entire personality and brain.

Edited June 4, 2015 by Artsda

[stacyasp]

When did men and women stop being men and women and become "cis-gendered"??? There are too many terms to keep up with !!!!!!

[Kromm]

When did men and women stop being men and women and become "cis-gendered"??? There are too many terms to keep up with !!!!!!

In my opinion, don't feel obliged to use the phrase cis-gendered in your daily life.  Honestly, outside of specific discussions of transgenderism, to define the opposite, it's, in my opinion not going to be of any use to you (although frankly I also often see it used as an "us vs. them" mechanism to throw shade as well).

[Snarryfan]

Cis-gendered are those who are born with their gender and sex matching. Trans are those born with a mismatch. Then you have intersex individuals who are born with chromosonal differences or ambiguous/"problematic" genitalia, you have 2-spirits who are those who embody the traits of both male and female and present as such (usually from First Nations backgrounds), genderqueer are those who reject binary normativity of male/female, genderfuck are those who specifically upset the normative, crossdressing is a fetish, drag is a satire of gender norms performed by gay men and lesbians.

[nexxie]

I read a couple of quotes from Bruce and Casey about the difference in their relationship now vs before and I really was put off by Bruce's remark that  he was a poor distant father to his first 4 kids because he was unhappy within himself.    But he managed to man up and be a great dad  to Kylie and Kendall and to Kris's 4 kids?

What the hell? If I were one of those 4 older kids, I don't know if I'd be so forgiving, unless, they are so starved for their dad's affection that they are willing to overlook his failings as a dad.  I wonder though how long the honeymoon will last. Is Caitlyn really all that different than Bruce? Or is she just so caught up in this new chapter of her life and eventually when all the attention and accolades fade will she slide right back to her old personality.

Only time will tell - I hope we see more of the older Jenner four, as well as Leah. Love Brandon and Leah - good vibe around them!

[stacyasp]

Cis-gendered are those who are born with their gender and sex matching. Trans are those born with a mismatch. Then you have intersex individuals who are born with chromosonal differences or ambiguous/"problematic" genitalia, you have 2-spirits who are those who embody the traits of both male and female and present as such (usually from First Nations backgrounds), genderqueer are those who reject binary normativity of male/female, genderfuck are those who specifically upset the normative, crossdressing is a fetish, drag is a satire of gender norms performed by gay men and lesbians.

Ridiculous

 

[Snarryfan]

Why is it ridiculous? Gender is an invented concept that should be played with, altered, disrupted, and destroyed. People who define themselves by these terms aren't hurting anybody--in fact they are victims of horrifying violence and discrimination.

[Kromm]

Ridiculous

The term isn't ridiculous.  It's just of limited utility outside of a specific circumstance.

[jonesingjay]

Why is it ridiculous? Gender is an invented concept that should be played with, altered, disrupted, and destroyed. People who define themselves by these terms aren't hurting anybody--in fact they are victims of horrifying violence and discrimination.

 

The violence and discrimination is horrible. Simply directed at a person because someone doesn't understand and strongly disagrees with their choice to live their life authentically. 

Edited June 8, 2015 by jonesingjay

[Kromm]

Maybe we should move on?  We don't seem to be talking specifically about Caitlyn Jenner anymore

[Snarryfan]

 

"So let's look at 1977 and see if there was indeed a move to the right. In 1977, gay people had their rights taken away from them in Miami. But you must remember that in the week before Miami and the week after that, the word homosexual or gay appeared in every single newspaper in this nation in articles both pro and con. In every radio station, in every TV station and every household. For the first time in the history of the world, everybody was talking about it, good or bad. Unless you have dialogue, unless you open the walls of dialogue, you can never reach to change people's opinion. In those two weeks, more good and bad, but more about the word homosexual and gay was written than probably in the history of mankind. Once you have dialogue starting, you know you can break down prejudice....And the young gay people in the Altoona, Pennsylvanias and the Richmond, Minnesotas who are coming out and hear Anita Bryant on television and her story. The only thing they have to look forward to is hope. And you have to give them hope. Hope for a better world, hope for a better tomorrow, hope for a better place to come to if the pressures at home are too great. Hope that all will be all right. Without hope, not only gays, but the blacks, the seniors, the handicapped, the us'es, the us'es will give up. And if you help elect to the central committee and other offices, more gay people, that gives a green light to all who feel disenfranchised, a green light to move forward. It means hope to a nation that has given up, because if a gay person makes it, the doors are open to everyone."

 

This is one of my favorite speeches, given by Harvey Milk, arguably one of the most significant figures in the gay liberation movement. Replace gay with trans and I think there is a sense of why Caitlyn Jenner's coming out is so important. It's not about the viewers of the Kardashians or the people who believe in LGBT equality, it's about the young and old trans people who live in silence and shame, It's for the children being tortured in Christian camps to cure their "illness," it's for adults being attacked on buses and subways for dressing in a way that speaks to their souls and not their genitals, it's for Leelah Alcorn who might have re-thought stepping in front of the 18-wheeler if she had seen the almost univerally positive response to Jenner's appearance, and yes, her recognition with a hero award.

 

Has she been part of a reality show that speaks to shallowness--yes.  Is she participating in a media format that many people find suspect or problematic--yes.  But you know what--the Queer Guys who did make-overs were accused of being gay Step'n Fetchits--and that show helped advance LGBT acceptance.  Why? Because when you watch someone on tv, even if it is a heightened version performed for reality tv, it is harder to hate and hurt someone "like that" in real life.

 

I don't fault Caitlyn Jenner for wanting to look beautiful--she has waited 65 years to express herself this way. She didn't have her teens/20s to wear too much make-up and tight clothes. If she wants to do that while being an older woman--why is that an issue?  Because older woman are not supposed to be seen as sexually attractive? Considering the entire beauty industry is focused on looking younger (tighten skin with Olay, dye your gray with Feria, lift those boobs at Dr. Feelgoods!), I think she is being shamed for wanting to be attractive. And that is unfeminist and not cool.

 

It's Pride month--where we celebrate the nights when a large group of transwomen, drag queens, gay men, and lesbians, said "no more" to being harassed by the cops and fought back.  And I think the Stonewall Girls would look at Caitlyn Jenner and say "get it baby, work your thing."

[GaT]

Why so public?  Why?  I don't understand famewhoredomness, so maybe that's why I don't understand.  But honestly, I believe there is something deeply disturbing about an individual who feels every moment of their life should be lived publicly. 

 

 

How else would he do it? Bruce was a very famous Olympic athlete who also happened to be on one of the most visible reality shows. How would he do this privately? It was going to be noticed if he suddenly started showing up places as a woman. The only way he could do this was in the public eye.

[Kromm]

How else would he do it? Bruce was a very famous Olympic athlete who also happened to be on one of the most visible reality shows. How would he do this privately? It was going to be noticed if he suddenly started showing up places as a woman. The only way he could do this was in the public eye.

Well there's "in the public" and there's "starring in your own TV specials and reality shows".

 

It's not like Bruce's role on the Kardashian shows was really necessary.  Whether you think it good or bad that Caitlyn Jenner is using this as a platform, I don't know if it follows that she HAS to, since while there's no way that she's be able to totally duck publicity, there's certainly a whole lotta variation on how much.

[Kromm]

Well here's Fox News showing how NOT to talk about this, what with them insisting on using male pronouns (and sounding as snide about the transitioning aspect as the person being discussed--the second being understandable but the first being.... Fox News' take on trans issues, of course).  The anchor even makes a crack about "Rome, final days" to infer that Trans people running around is the equivalent to Nero fiddling while Rome burned.  Because you know... that anchor is an asshole.  And works for Fox News (which is almost saying the same thing twice).

 

[millennium]

I really was put off by Bruce's remark that  he was a poor distant father to his first 4 kids because he was unhappy within himself.   

 

 

 

Jenner identifies as a woman.  What is the trait most closely associated with women?   Nurturing.   Where was Jenner's inner female when his children needed him?   Being a good parent was an opportunity for Jenner to put his supposed femininity to good use, even if he couldn't present as a female at the time.  

[Snarryfan]

Not all women are nurturing or maternal. I like my niece--that's it. I am the single woman calling other people breeders and shooting dirty looks at their rude offspring.

[Kromm]

Jenner identifies as a woman.  What is the trait most closely associated with women?   Nurturing.   Where was Jenner's inner female when his children needed him?   Being a good parent was an opportunity for Jenner to put his supposed femininity to good use, even if he couldn't present as a female at the time.  

Well that doesn't make Jenner non-feminine.  It makes Jenner as asshole.

[nexxie]

Caitlyn Jenner Signs With CAA Speakers

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/caitlyn-jenner-signs-caa-speakers-799906?utm_source=twitter

http://variety.com/2015/biz/news/caitlyn-jenner-signs-with-caa-1201511660/

Kris is in the rear view mirror now when it comes to Cait's business.

It just occurred to me that if Bruce has really been wanting to be a woman all this time, it must have really been tough for Rob. He's the only son in a house full of females, his father died, & his only other father figure wanted to be a woman. No wonder Rob is screwed up.

Plus, his "brothers" - Lamar and Scott - are addicts.

Wonder if Rob and Kanye speak.

[GaT]

Well there's "in the public" and there's "starring in your own TV specials and reality shows".

 

It's not like Bruce's role on the Kardashian shows was really necessary.  Whether you think it good or bad that Caitlyn Jenner is using this as a platform, I don't know if it follows that she HAS to, since while there's no way that she's be able to totally duck publicity, there's certainly a whole lotta variation on how much.

But if he didn't do it this way, first, think of all the people who wouldn't believe he's transitioning, just read some of the comments in this thread. Second, people are going to be hounding him for answers no matter what, publically showing what he's going through will at least ease up on some of it. Third, he's been living his life "in the public" ever since KUWTK started, at this point I doubt he knows how to have a life without the cameras around. Doing this on a reality show is just his regular life.

[iwasish]

Jenner identifies as a woman.  What is the trait most closely associated with women?   Nurturing.   Where was Jenner's inner female when his children needed him?   Being a good parent was an opportunity for Jenner to put his supposed femininity to good use, even if he couldn't present as a female at the time.  

The fact that he chose to be a distant, unengaged father to his 4 eldest  children, but then be a nurturing, involved, stellar parent /stepparent to 2 addition bio kids and a 4 pack of step kids  says a lot about him as a person.  Not much of it good.

[Mu Shu]

Transitioning, in itself, does not automatically make her a saint or a hero, imo.That's my point.

 "Catlyn" definitely needs more positive woman role models than Kim or Kris; they can only teach her how to dress like a slut.

I thought a lot of her clothing Kimmy was mocking looked nice.    She really needs to get a better fashion advisor.   Sixty five doesn't mean you have to wear a muu-muu, but a classy wrap style would probably be sexier and more flattering than the current Kardashian-Jenner fashion trends. 

[millennium]

When did men and women stop being men and women and become "cis-gendered"??? There are too many terms to keep up with !!!!!!

 

I hate writing "cis-gendered" myself; I think it's stupid.   Nobody talks like that in real life.    I don't even know what "cis" really means, to be perfectly honest.   But I had to write something to make the distinction and "cis-gendered" seems to be the current choice used in these conversations now.   What are the other choices?  "Biological Females?"  "Genetic Females?"  "XX Women?" (or is that a Marvel thing?) 

[Maysie]

 

But if he didn't do it this way, first, think of all the people who wouldn't believe he's transitioning, just read some of the comments in this thread. Second, people are going to be hounding him for answers no matter what, publically showing what he's going through will at least ease up on some of it. Third, he's been living his life "in the public" ever since KUWTK started, at this point I doubt he knows how to have a life without the cameras around. Doing this on a reality show is just his regular life.

 

I think part of the disbelief of the transitioning process may be in part because it is so out there, so very public and in your face; the "ploy" is an attempt to make money/become more famous/cash in on the previous notoriety. However, that's a guess on my part because I absolutely believe it's happening. I will say it sure appears to me that it's paying off big time because I saw something today that Caitlyn's speaking fees will be 5 times what Bruce's were. So Ka-ching! for transitioning!

 

There's little doubt in my mind that he would have been highly scrutinized and hounded with his transition, however, she's not doing it this way because she had no choice. There's always a choice. Just because he lived his life in a reality show world for the last xx years doesn't mean he couldn't have done it in a more low-key fashion - hell, it sounds like Bruce was an afterthought on the show anyway. Bruce could have taken the Chaz Bono route; he was the subject of a lot of speculation and publicity, but he handled it in a fairly classy, relatively private, way, I thought.

 

Perhaps this is how Caitlyn makes all those years living with Kris pay off. Perhaps Bruce always wanted the level of fame and attention the women of the family had and now Caitlyn's finally able to share in it. I can't get inside her head to see what her motivation is. All I know is what I've read and the thing that I'm having a hard time getting beyond is her insensitivity to her kids' reactions.

 

She can pose for covers, she can subject herself to living with a camera crew and paparazzi following her everywhere all she wants; it's her choice. But she should accept her kids taking a pass on it all; they shouldn't have to have their transition experience played out for everyone to watch -- and I do think it's a transition for them too, which is something that's getting lost in the shuffle. It'd be nice if Caitlyn would acknowledge that. Maybe she will on the show. I hope so, but I'm not going to watch to find out.

[iwasish]

I think the in your face coming out is hard for the kids to take. We don't know if this was indeed the first time they have seen Caitlyn. I hope he would have been a bit more casually dressed for the first few meetings. He told Kourtney his style is slacks and a nice sweater. That's a far cry from the VF cover. If he were my dad, I don't think I would ever be truly comfortable seeing her in full make up and evening wear.

[Artsda]

I was wondering about this. Glad that for Kylie and Kendall's sake she's still wanting the kids to call her "dad." It might be better for Khloe too, she had been using "dad" and "parent" more since the transition started. 

 

Caitlyn Jenner Still Lets Her Kids Call Her 'Dad': Sources

 

 

When Caitlyn Jenner told her kids that she would make the transition from male to female, they were supportive – but they couldn't help wondering how to address the family member they used to call "Dad."

 

It turns out that some things haven't entirely changed.

 

"[Caitlyn] spoke to each of the kids separately and told them to take their time in getting used to this," says a Jenner family friend. "She would prefer not to be called 'Bruce,' but told the kids that they could still call her 'Dad,' at least for now." 

 

Interesting article on Caitlyn's new branding.

 

If Jenner decides to pursue her current marketability, "there's a lot of opportunity" for her to become even more successful than her daughters, says Henry Schafer, who specializes in pop-culture brand tracking. "She's certainly going to be the face of transgender people, and I think that's a positive," Schafer adds, with the caveat that "when it comes to marketing yourself, it's definitely most significantly tied to the individual's willingness to do it."

 

 

The Introduction and Branding of Caitlyn Jenner

Jenner was recently criticized by transgender TV show host and journalist Zoey Tur, who questioned Jenner's intentions. "What we're seeing is the rollout of a product," she said on a CNN panel hosted by Don Lemon. "It is a continuation of the Kardashian line."

 

 

 

Burt Jenner: I hope Caitlyn Jenner will be a 'better person'

http://www.thespec.com/whatson-story/5657449-burt-jenner-i-hope-caitlyn-jenner-will-be-a-better-person-/

 

 

"At the end of the day there's no way I can get around it. I am ungodly thankful and I feel very fortunate to not have had my father in my life ... I learned how to open doors and shake hands and look people in the eye. Things that my dad never would have taught me ...

Burt also admitted he blames E! reality show 'Keeping Up With The Kardashians' for being the "nail in the coffin" for  heir relationship. He added: "I think the nail in the coffin for the relationship was the beginning of the TV show. There was a you-aren't-part-of-this kind of thing. Kris made the choice to make a good TV show that was in their image and brand."

 

Burt's really not over things. I also don't know how he can blame the recent tv show for Bruce not being in his life for the all the 15 years before it. Bruce already wasn't having anything to do with parenting him. The tv show had nothing to do with it. I don't see how Bruce isn't a father for 15 years, but the tv that just started in 7 years ago was the nail in the coffin. 

 

Burt's just irrationally bitter.

Edited June 5, 2015 by Artsda

[millennium]

This goes to what I've been trying to say the last few days.

 

The transgender community takes issue with Vanity Fair's Jenner issue (the boldface is mine):

 

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-life/11653455/Caitlyn-Jenner-Trans-women-are-making-their-own-Vanity-Fair-covers.html

 

The transgender community is posting its own versions of Caitlyn Jenner's Vanity Fair photo shoot online, under the hashtag #MyVanityFairCover.

 

Inspired by Jenner’s cover for the magazine, in which she revealed her new name earlier this week, the pictures are designed to show the many faces of the trans community.

 

The hashtag was started by American roommates Crystal Frasier and Jenn Dolari.

 

The pair posted a message on Tumblr:

 

'A lot of people have explained it better than me recently, but a large contingent of the trans community has engaged in a lot of dialogue the past few days, ever since Vanity Fair announced their Caitlyn Jenner’s cover story, most of which revolves around the idea that the world only seems to embrace us if we’re wealthy enough or lucky enough to adhere to white, cisnormative beauty standards.  I’ve felt frustrated and useless and overwhelmed by opinions on transgender women and how we’re “supposed” to look if we want to be taken seriously.

 

'But not all of us adhere to those standards. Not all of us want to. Not all of us can. Some of us do, but only out of fear. Some of us do but we aren’t sure why. And whether we fit those standards or not, we’re beautiful, and we all deserve to feel beautiful, and be acknowledged by the world. Admiration and praise for trans women shouldn’t only come if we fit a narrow definition of beauty. As a good friend of mine said Monday ‘Where’s my Vanity Fair cover?’'

 

The article is worth a look.

Edited June 5, 2015 by millennium

[Kromm]

I hate writing "cis-gendered" myself; I think it's stupid.   Nobody talks like that in real life.    I don't even know what "cis" really means, to be perfectly honest.   But I had to write something to make the distinction and "cis-gendered" seems to be the current choice used in these conversations now.   What are the other choices?  "Biological Females?"  "Genetic Females?"  "XX Women?" (or is that a Marvel thing?) 

I think it's no big deal to use "cis-gendered" as an opposite to trans-gendered in a specific conversation on the subject.  I mean it's really no different than "heterosexual" used in context when discussing the concept of homosexuality.

 

And take that further.  Do you really find yourself using the phrase "heterosexual" in any other circumstance?  Do you CALL yourself that in any conversation that isn't about your sexual preference? I doubt it. Well this is the same, except about gender identification rather than sexuality.

 

With one exception. As we've already seen in this thread, like any term it can be used as an insult. Homosexual, heterosexual, transgender, cisgender---they've all been used that way on occasion.  Any term can be turned that way if the proper level of scorn is applied.

Edited June 5, 2015 by Kromm