S01.E06: The Dating Game

[iwasish]

Cait, Cait, Cait. How out of touch with reality can you be. It must be nice living in that multi million dollar manse on the cliff overlooking the Pacific with how ever many cars you own. I thought Candis' Volvo looked pretty damn good for a 10 yr. old car and last time I checked, Volvo was considered a luxury car. For the common folk, that is. No, Cait, you are never going to be "normal". And it has nothing to do with being trans. 

I make a nice living and yet can't justify the price of a Volvo. Cait really has no clue. In her world everyone has a flotilla of vehicles in the driveway that are regularly towed away and replaced with newer more expensive models. Candis, like most of us, is driving a 10 yr old car. I just replaced my 10 yr old Nissan with a leftover 2014 model. Will probably drive this one for 10 plus years if I'm lucky. 

[SPLAIN]

 

The bit over the picking up of the lunch check was ridiculous too. Just fucking split it.

Just like on the Kardashian show, it is all production. Production paid for it. :-)

 

 

She has had so much mouth work done she can hardly eat and I noticed she always uses a straw to drink anything

I didn't notice a straw for her wine.

[Muffyn]

Chandi.  I can't help it, I love it everytime Caitlyn wide-eyes something someone said and Chandi answers, "Yes Cait."  and "Yes, Cait, that happens all the time."  

I love Chandi so much.  Her tone when she says "yes, Caitlyn" slays me.  She is my personal Greek chorus. 

 

Caitlyn getting upset that her answer on the dating survey read as "masculine" stood out to me. She is who she is--transitioning doesn't automatically change who you are inside. If she was analytical before, she likely will continue to be. Why feed into the same societal gender binary stereotypes that you are simultaneously trying to combat?

Edited to add-- I also snorted when Jen said that Caitlyn was a good parent--isn't that a determination some of her children might find debatable?

Cait seems mentally stuck in the 50s in regards to gender roles.  Meanwhile she was part of a family that, while pushing an extra feminine look, do not fit that stereotype.  Women can be more analytical - it does not make them lesser as women.  The useless who will pay lunch scene was more of this.   Hey cait, when you used to go out with guy friends, how did you hand;e the check?  

 

I think JBo was trying to push Cait on the dating thing only because she seems homophobic.  Cait is really into being straight.  If she is a woman who is sexually attracted to women, most people will not view her as straight.  Cait's explanation that she wants to be treated like a woman seemed to be wanting someone to open doors for her, ask her out, pick up the check, etc. - more of the 50s ideals coming through.  Dating a man might get her the type of attention; however, she may well not be sexually attracted to a man.  Personally I don't care wo she has sex with or if she ever has sex again.  The show is trying to push some connection with her and Candis but it is all for show. 

[Cosmocrush]

I love Chandi so much.  Her tone when she says "yes, Caitlyn" slays me.  She is my personal Greek chorus. 

In the same way I think  Caitlyn's "Really?"  can often serve as the stand in for the viewers - or what they think the viewers are thinking and I include myself in some of that.   I had no idea about so many issues that are unique to the Transgender community (as opposed to the LGB community) because honestly I never thought much about it past an individual story.  

 

Edited because I was repeating myself. 

Edited August 31, 2015 by Cosmocrush

[iwasish]

Just like on the Kardashian show, it is all production. Production paid for it. :-)

I didn't notice a straw for her wine.

Of course production paid,so why bother with the phony drama? When friends do lunch they generally split the check. Why create a scenario just to add drama where no drama was needed? It just makes everything else suspect.

[iwasish]

I love Chandi's voice also. I'm glad she didn't bow to pressure to change it. It's distinctive and expressive.

[freeradical]

I can't stand Chandi. She doesn't want to teach Caitlyn anything. She is just there to get her 15 minutes and be an asshole to Cait. Cait asked a couple of questions and Chandi responds in a condescending, bitchy, well rehearsed "Yes Cait!" That's not doing anything to help Cait or anyone watching the show understand anything and tells me she not very intelligent. She is obviously resentful of Cait so it seems really evil to be on CAIT'S show. Funny how the well educated and kind Jennifer Boylan lost her credibility on these boards because she wrote an article that contradicts most reasons given for the general bad attitude about Cait but now Chandi is the big hero with the two words that came out of her mouth?

[Starchild]

Candis has latched on to someone with money and will do anything as a performer to get in on it.  Then has the nerve to ask on camera if Cait is picking up the tab, all she left out was "as usual..."

For the first time, I got the sense in this episode that Candis is in this for what she can get out of it. She breaks into her high-kicking act whenever possible, and now the whole "I might as well date Cait" felt really self-serving, like dating a reality show star will jump-start her own career. I felt kind of sorry for Cait, y'all, like she's being used and doesn't realize it.

[possibilities]

Funny how the well educated and kind Jennifer Boylan lost her credibility on these boards because she wrote an article that contradicts most reasons given for the general bad attitude about Cait

Wait... I missed this. Can someone point me to Boylan's article?

[editorgrrl]

Wait... I missed this. Can someone point me to Boylan's article?

Maybe it's this one from the Media thread?

Jennifer Finney Boylan serves up a great big pitcher of Kool-Aid:

"Caitlyn Jenner: A Champion All Over Again"

http://www.people.com/article/caitlyn-jenner-jennifer-finney-boylan-essay

Edited September 1, 2015 by editorgrrl

[Starchild]

From the essay:

Caitlyn Jenner, is determined to educate people about our community, and to be a one-woman force for good.

I guess that settles the question about whether Cait thinks she can change the world and make things better for trans folk everywhere?

[freeradical]

Jennifer Boylan's thoughtful article.

 

http://www.jenniferboylan.net/2015/08/14/jenny-boylan-on-caitlyn-jenner-the-big-dress-theory/

[HumblePi]

For the first time, I got the sense in this episode that Candis is in this for what she can get out of it. She breaks into her high-kicking act whenever possible, and now the whole "I might as well date Cait" felt really self-serving, like dating a reality show star will jump-start her own career. I felt kind of sorry for Cait, y'all, like she's being used and doesn't realize it.

I get conflicting opinions of Candis. Sometime I get the feeling she's nothing more than an opportunist and pirhana that's accustomed to using others to get what she wants. Other times I think she's nothing more than a bubbly and articulate personality that was perfect for the role of confidant, best buddy and mentor to Caitlyn introducing her into the lifestyle of the transgender community. "Maybe I should date Cait" sure sounded like a woman who feels she can pretty much get whatever or whoever she wants. She did get a Lamborghini even if it was only for a short period of time. And, I wonder who will pay the bill for her Volvo repairs.

[Kromm]

For the first time, I got the sense in this episode that Candis is in this for what she can get out of it. She breaks into her high-kicking act whenever possible, and now the whole "I might as well date Cait" felt really self-serving, like dating a reality show star will jump-start her own career. I felt kind of sorry for Cait, y'all, like she's being used and doesn't realize it.

I think they're using each other.  It's possible Caitlyn doesn't realize this.  But equally possible she does.  Either way, it's not like Cait isn't using Candis as well (by borrowing any credibility she may have had).

[Madding crowd]

I understood Cait being somewhat uncomfortable watching the exotic dancing with the men she says "were packing". She is 65, and generally conservative and not everyone likes that sort of thing. I don't think she has to be open to every experience and state of being on earth, she just needs to be a bit more authentic. 

 

I enjoyed seeing the camp and I hope there is a camp out there for every different kid in the US, regardless of how they are different. In regard to Candis; I think she really loves being the center of attention and I'm not sure if there is any genuine fondness for Cait. 

 

I agree with Cait that she doesn't need to declare her sexual interests now or ever and that she can just look, be friends with or date whoever she wants without it being a big deal. Hmm, I'm finding myself sticking up for Cait more than I used to.

[Kromm]

 

Caitlyn Jenner, is determined to educate people about our community, and to be a one-woman force for good.

Well we all know all of the women in her position who have come before hardly matter. Right?

[Cosmic Muffin]

I would like to have seen more of the camp, but maybe the campers and counselors didn't want to disrupt the experience any more than they did. And there are documentaries on these types of camp. But that was the best part of the episode for me. Logo, when it was much better and wholly GLBT ran a documentary on a Christian camp for LGBT kids that I really enjoyed. One young woman was questioning whether to remain Christian or become Pagan or Wiccan, and in the end she went with the Pagan/Wiccan choice.

 

So we had more stairs, Candis' instead of Cait's, and a closeup of the waiter's hands. The on going hand thing is really weird. I know many of us have noticed it and speculated on why they're doing it. On reason I can think of is during the Diane Sawyer interview (which I appreciate even more, 6 episodes into this show) Caitlyn mentioned how being able to have nail polish on long enough for it to chip was something she couldn't have when she was hiding who she was. So there's that, but then why show the waiter's hands?

 

Mainly I knew Candis from the last season of RuPaul's Drag Race, where she tried to choreograph a video (the group of dancers were untrainable, it wasn't her fault they couldn't learn the steps) and she told them she wanted an early 90s video feel, and Violet Chachki, who won in the end, sassed Candis that she wasn't born until 1992. Candis kept her cool and told her that she should still be familiar with the look.

[princelina]

Honest opinion time. 

1.) Do you think Caitlyn is telling the truth about having never met (muchless talked to) another Treansgender person prior to a few weeks before the Espys (which would be around the same time this series began--ergo after her Transition).

2.) If she IS telling the truth, do you think that has any mitigating effect on the 30 year period of consideration you've discussed?

3.) If she's NOT telling the truth, does the fact that maybe she's more knowledgeable than she's portrayed onscreen and in her public speeches affect your position on her?

 

 

 

1.  I find it VERY believable that she hadn't talked to other trans people before this show.  I never watched the K's but I gather from reading this board that she wasn't too social -  either hanging out with them, or hanging out in their garage, or pursuing her various car/bike/helicopter hobbies, and she has said here that she kept to herself.  She also has admitted to secret dressing up which Kris knew about and Kim found out about, and that gender issues affected divorce from wife number 2, but that seems to be as far as it went.  I'm sure with the advent of the internet she spent some time looking online, and could possibly have joined a community or chat room under an assumed name, but I think overall she had a big secret to keep and she kept it well.  (FTR, the thing I found disingenuous in her Diane Sawyer interview was the talk about how as a child she dressed up in her sister's clothes and walked around town - maybe once, but she made it sound like it happened frequently.  In a small town, living in a duplex, with SAHM's everywhere.  I call bullshit.  But I digress :)  I agree with previous posters that she is smart and goal-oriented and "did her research", but I can see it being academic rather than experiential research, if you know what I mean.

 

2.  And therefore, I DO see how the 30 year period would have a mitigating effect - IMO it could have been a 30 year period of daydreaming/fantasizing that she is now seeing come to fruition.  Much like having a huge high school crush that goes nowhere, then meeting him at your 30th reunion where you find yourselves both free and start dating!  Combination of dream/fantasy come true combined with WTF? when something that was not part of the fantasy rears its ugly head :)  I see this in her glee at showing off her designer closet/hair makeup techs/talking "girl talk" with Kim and the girlfriends/flirty "babe" carry-ons VS discomfort with Sergio/irritation with family who don't flock to the "new" her/shock and dismay at what she learns from the girlfriend dinner parties and outings.  While I totally get that this show is scripted and following a storyline, and that these women are paid to be there an instruct her and are not her real friends, her general cluelessness is convincing and IMO that would be because this is her first time living this way outside of her own head.  (And may I say - I hope she ends up with some real friends from this group once the show is over.)

 

3.  If she's not telling the truth, then I guess I don't really care.  I am one who believes that she has yet to show the type of "courage" that should be awarded in a national public venue, but then I don't watch or give a shit about any celebrity awards shows anyway.  I have enjoyed the paid girlfriends and learning from them myself, so if that was her intent in this case, then kudos.  

 

WRT the various comments about Candis, Chandi, Jennifer - I like them all, and think they are all getting what they wanted out of being on this show in a good way, both with their "15 minutes" and whatever agenda they have on the side.  But that is okay; they are people I would enjoy talking to and getting to know; people who have overcome obstacles and have had interesting lives and differing perspectives.  Also, on a completely different note - I wish they had given a tour of Zackary's house - it was really cute from the outside!

[millennium]

Funny how the well educated and kind Jennifer Boylan lost her credibility on these boards because she wrote an article that contradicts most reasons given for the general bad attitude about Cait

 

I had the impression Jennifer Boylan lost her credibility for being a Kool-Aid-drinking, paid shill for Caitlyn Jenner.

Edited September 1, 2015 by millennium

[jonesingjay]

I think Caitlyn and Candis should give it a whirl. They'd make an attractive couple, but I wouldn't want their friendship to fall apart if things ended badly between the two of them. 

[CarolMK]

Is it my imagination, or has Cait gotten thinner since her transition? I thought at first it was her clothes, but now I think she's down about 15 or 20 pounds since I saw the 20/20 interview. 

Maybe Cait and Candis know each other too well to actually date. My teen son would call this being friend zoned, if you know somebody for a long time, they put you in the friend category and don't see you as a potential love interest. Maybe that's what happened here.

[ClareWalks]

Maybe Cait and Candis know each other too well to actually date. My teen son would call this being friend zoned, if you know somebody for a long time, they put you in the friend category and don't see you as a potential love interest. Maybe that's what happened here.

 

I don't think it's that, since they haven't known each other long at all (they basically met on the show). It's probably because, as has been stated many times (and for some reason the editors think we'll forget?), Candis is attracted to men. Not sure why they're trying to fake us out on this one, since Candis wouldn't go for Cait for that reason alone.

[freeradical]

I had the impression Jennifer Boylan lost her credibility for being a Kool-Aid-drinking, paid shill for Caitlyn Jenner.

 

      A few people on this thread just started saying that because her opinion differs from theirs.

 

Her credibility speaks for itself.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jennifer_Finney_Boylan

     

[BananaRama]

We should try to remember that before Caitlyn Jenner was Caitlyn Jenner, she was a person with an average intellect with regular faults and though her outer appearance has changed - she hasn't automatically changed mentally and intellectually. Jenny Boylan has always been brilliant. Caitlyn is doing the best that she can. This is all relatively new to her.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

The (Just Kidding, No One Is Actually) Dating Game / About 37 things happened this week and yet, also...nothing?

[millennium]

Wikipedia entries and lumens aside, Boylan's human and prone to being compromised like anyone else.  

[CousinAmy]

Re-watching, I noticed that Caitlyn told the camera "I'm going to take little Candis to this camp..." It looks like Caitlyn is looking at Candis as a child, maybe her child? My dad was the one to take me on trips, took care of my car, etc. But this is kind of icky, because the show keeps teasing a different kind of relationship.

Also, Candis might be slightly smaller than Cait, but she has been living a successful life on her own for a long time. She has created a fabulous "character", become a respected choreographer, and is well-known in NY, LA and parts in-between. Why is Cait denigrating her accomplishments and infantalizing her?

[iwasish]

Re-watching, I noticed that Caitlyn told the camera "I'm going to take little Candis to this camp..." It looks like Caitlyn is looking at Candis as a child, maybe her child? My dad was the one to take me on trips, took care of my car, etc. But this is kind of icky, because the show keeps teasing a different kind of relationship.

Also, Candis might be slightly smaller than Cait, but she has been living a successful life on her own for a long time. She has created a fabulous "character", become a respected choreographer, and is well-known in NY, LA and parts in-between. Why is Cait denigrating her accomplishments and infantalizing her?

Caitlyn has always been a pushy know it all. Remember all the lectures she used to give Scott about his failures as a man, a boyfriend and a father?  She always knew best and better. I notice Candis is very careful to defer to Caitlyn and cater to her in a subtle way.  She's playing the fragile little woman who needs someone to take care of her, get her car repaired, lecture her on her self worth. That is exactly what Caitlyn is looking for. She wants to lead, not follow and she wants to be waited on, much like Rhonda has done for the last several years. She wants the "normal" way of life.  She wants the Ward and June Cleaver scenario, but with both of them in dresses and full makeup.

[bichonblitz]

Re-watching, I noticed that Caitlyn told the camera "I'm going to take little Candis to this camp..." It looks like Caitlyn is looking at Candis as a child, maybe her child? My dad was the one to take me on trips, took care of my car, etc. But this is kind of icky, because the show keeps teasing a different kind of relationship.

Also, Candis might be slightly smaller than Cait, but she has been living a successful life on her own for a long time. She has created a fabulous "character", become a respected choreographer, and is well-known in NY, LA and parts in-between. Why is Cait denigrating her accomplishments and infantalizing her?

She actually said "little Candis" several times. A little condescending in my opinion. But then, I think Candis was aiming for the damsel in distress angle in this episode. 

[babykin]

Ushering Candis into the "parking lot" with all Caits expensive cars circled around and then telling her that she pulled some strings and got her a Lamborghini for a few days as a "loaner" was so tacky. If you want to be kind to a friend, loan her one of the many cars you have. Don't mock her ten yr old Volvo either, she drives what she can afford, be happy she's not on the government dole and living large on your tax money Cait.

Really hope that tax thing is a joke.

[editorgrrl]

Candis said that getting a new car was not in her budget right now, I guess she'll get one with the money from this show.

It also should show how unique Caitlyn is and while doing something nice like probably calling up the family car dealer (Calabasas Luxury Motorcars, which Scott is somehow owns a stake in) to get a new car for a few days is nice. Caitlyn learning and adapting shouldn't be based on playing fairy godmother and throwing her money around.

I didn't know about Scott's dealership. I assumed production paid for the car—just like they paid that restaurant check Cait & Candis pretended to negotiate. Cait would be liable if she lent a car to Candis and anything happened.

The only real "fairy godmothering" I've seen is Blossom Brown's tuition. And Cait's exact words to her producer, Andrea, were, "She's gonna go to nursing school—and we're gonna pay for it, okay?" I took that to mean it's a business deal, rather than the money coming out of Cait's pocket.

Cait let Candis and Chandi hang out in her $2,000 hotel room after she went to bed—but that room was comped. When Cait invited Rhonda to the movies, did she treat? (Speaking of which, where is Rhonda?)

[Febgirl]

I am off the Jenn Boylan love train myself.  Everyone has a price, I suppose.

 

For me, the highlight of this episode was seeing a childhood friend, Ward Carpenter, make an appearance!

 He  used to work at the Callen Lorde Health center here in NY, and moved to LA a few years back.  So great to see him on the show as Candis' Dr.  He is a great guy.

[iwasish]

I didn't know about Scott's dealership. I assumed production paid for the car—just like they paid that restaurant check Cait & Candis pretended to negotiate. Cait would be liable if she lent a car to Candis and anything happened.

The only real "fairy godmothering" I've seen is Blossom Brown's tuition. And Cait's exact words to her producer, Andrea, were, "She's gonna go to nursing school—and we're gonna pay for it, okay?" I took that to mean it's a business deal, rather than the money coming out of Cait's pocket.

Cait let Candis and Chandi hang out in her $2,000 hotel room after she went to bed—but that room was comped. When Cait invited Rhonda to the movies, did she treat? (Speaking of which, where is Rhonda?)

Cait told her to bring along her smart phone so they could get the tickets on line. She was busy with her sour pickle at the time. Edited September 2, 2015 by iwasish

[freeradical]

Jennifer Boylan almost always addresses Cait like an overly strict parent or the college professor you dread asking a question. I suspect she believes the "What does THAT mean?" approach will make Cait dig deeper but I don't think it's working! Its a bit frenemy. I'd be terrified to confide girl talk with her because I would probably cry if she scolded me like that!

[CousinAmy]

I didn't know about Scott's dealership. I assumed production paid for the car—just like they paid that restaurant check Cait & Candis pretended to negotiate. Cait would be liable if she lent a car to Candis and anything happened.

Like she's liable for the car crash she caused? 

[millennium]

The innocent beauty of Cait's cluelessness:

 

Take new best friend Candis Cayne, for example. When the two sit down for a nice lunch out, they talk about navigating chivalry when it’s two women going out, but they also speak a little about Candis’ car trouble. It turns out that she’s driving a 10-year-old Volvo, with 100,000 miles and a computer on the fritz, that’s causing her no end of grief.

 

Caitlyn listens sympathetically before murmuring that what she really needs is a Porsche. From the look on Cayne’s face, it’s clear that she’s used to this type of slightly out-of-touch comment from Cait, responding, “That’s not really in my budget.”

 

The conversation then turns to Candis’ upcoming doctor’s appointment and how she had to wait three months to get in to see him, because there are so few medical professionals qualified and willing to take on the specific challenges of gender-transitioned patients.

 

Caitlyn seems shocked at the thought of waiting three months to see a doctor and it’s clear that because of her bank account, there’s very little in the physical world that Caitlyn has ever had to wait for.

 

There’s something deeply empathetic about Caitlyn’s cluelessness about the real world, an honest naivete that only a person whose privilege has sheltered from the cruelest realities of life can exhibit. In a way, it’s the genius of the show itself. Caitlyn is the audience surrogate of her own show, and as she learns, the less informed and experienced members of the audience learn with her.

 

It also affords Caitlyn the opportunity to still feel an untarnished hope and anticipation for the future, something that occasionally eludes her counterparts who’ve been fighting the good fight for longer than she has.

 

http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/tv/showtracker/la-et-st-i-am-cait-recap-20150831-story.html

 

 

The media have lost their minds.  I thought I'd seen it all, but putting a positive spin on an adult's lack of basic understanding about how most people in this world live really takes the cake.  

 

What's more,  I think attributing Jenner's "cluelessness" to "honest naivete" is ridiculously charitable.   It seems equally possible that Jenner knows damn well how most Americans struggle to get by but is so self-involved that she just doesn't care. 

[Dorne2.0]

I think a lot of the transgender people on the show are excited about telling their stories and the reality of transgender people, so Cait's show is an opportunity to give more visibility to transgender people, Boylan, Chandi, Candis, Blossom, and highlight the issues the community faces. If the price is to tolerate Cait and pretend she's a good friend, maybe they are willing to pay it. The conversation that transwomen often have to do sex work because people won't employ them, per example, humanizes them for those who never thought about it and just saw them as freaks naturally drawn to prostitution (not that I find anything wrong with prostitution), but a lot of people sure do. 

 

Also highlighting the difficulty in finding love interests who take them seriously and don't see them as sex objects/experiments. And Candis story was really touching to me, a lot of women put up with abuse for a lot of time, and the difficulties of dating or finding love as a transgender people may make them want to stick to someone who wanted them even more. Some people need love in their life and a relationship to be happy and feel very lonely without it. Others are fine or even prefer being single. I just want to say that Candis story touched me, and it makes me sad that she, as beautiful as she is, couldn't find a good man who wanted a relationship with her and didn't abuse her. 

 

One thing, do you think transphobes would be more okay with a transwoman dating a transman, since they are XY and XX, and in their minds, that defines gender, so maybe they would see as a straight relationship or they would still hate them for how they dressed, identified, and may have had SRS? Just a thought that came to me. Of course they would still hate them, what am I thinking, these people have everyone who doesn't live how they think all people should live.

 

Edit: typos.

Edited September 3, 2015 by Dorne2.0

[HumblePi]

I think that since Cait grew up in a home with so many narcissistic women that long hair was something she felt she needed in order to look feminine. Contrarily, I feel that long hair on women over a certain age can actually make them look older. Cait is always very focused on her long hair, she's always primping it and throwing it away from her face. It's almost as annoying as the way Khloe is constantly touching and fixing her hair.  In my opinion, long hair only drags her face down and all her features along with it. Long hair is the anti-face-lift. Cait is adopting a style that she feels is youthful but some of her outfits are more suitable for a woman in her 20's. I don't mean to suggest that Caitlyn should dress dowdy or like an old woman, I'm just saying that her hair in particular and her choices of clothes doesn't serve her look well. I think she would look more youthful in a medium length hairstyle and more 'age appropriate' ensembles. 

 

 

For Caitlyn, the very worst thing she can receive is dissenting press and negativity from the public. Caitlyn had been revered as a champion, an Olympian and a role model for thousands. Feeling any negativity directed towards her is going to be upsetting her immensely. I think that Cait is more vulnerable emotionally than anyone realizes and will not deal well with if she's ever publicly ridiculed, scorned or repelled by friends or associates. The public acceptance is of paramount importance to Cait. She's not going to be satisfied transitioning and leaving the public eye to enjoy the rest of her life. I believe she expects that life will go on as usual only with her as a woman, and the chances of that happening are very slim. 

Edited September 3, 2015 by HumblePi

[Veruca Salt]

That is an interesting point HumblePi. I believe you are right that if Caitlyn ever gets out of the bubble she is in currently it may be quite a shock to her. Think about it -- Caitlyn is the same person as she always was -- self directed, self centered and a leader. Caitlyn's first wife worked while she pursued her Olympic dreams -- in order to be a champion you have to have singular focus on that goal -- and she succeeded. Then once achieved, she got a taste of fame and craved that more than competitive sports. -- or her family. In one way or another Caitlyn was in the public eye long after most would have merely been a footnote. Even as part of the Kardashian clan, she was viewed as a sympathetic character and one who seemed to be the voice of reason in the house of chaos.

 

Now in her transition, she may not adjust too well to the negativity as it was never part of her life before. She was more than able to sacrifice when it came to her own goals, but was not too willing to do so for her kids -- and I include her youngest two in that as well. I was on the Cait train as far as supporting her life decision to publicly be who she always was -- but as I commented upthread, I was appalled by the comment by Jennifer Boylan referring to Cait as a "great parent." If Cait had owned up to the mistakes she made to her children in a sincere way, then I think that her authenticity all around would be embraced. That comment was, IMHO, was an attempt to rewrite Cait's history as someone who never put herself first -- but the facts belie this assertion. That's probably why so much of this program is ringing somewhat false to so many - hence the dropping ratings.

[Kromm]

For Caitlyn, the very worst thing she can receive is dissenting press and negativity from the public. Caitlyn had been revered as a champion, an Olympian and a role model for thousands. Feeling any negativity directed towards her is going to be upsetting her immensely. I think that Cait is more vulnerable emotionally than anyone realizes and will not deal well with if she's ever publicly ridiculed, scorned or repelled by friends or associates. The public acceptance is of paramount importance to Cait. She's not going to be satisfied transitioning and leaving the public eye to enjoy the rest of her life. I believe she expects that life will go on as usual only with her as a woman, and the chances of that happening are very slim. 

The problem I have with that is that although I think you may be right about her true emotional/psychological weakness, I have trouble summoning all that much sympathy for someone who hides that kind of vulnerability behind massive ego, outright manipulation, and generally just being a clod. Most of the worst people in history have had sad stories and vulnerabilities, and while Caitlyn is far from anyone's worst ANYTHING, the same principle applies to a lesser extent with people who are just self-interested egotists. 

 

 

Think about it -- Caitlyn is the same person as she always was -- self directed, self centered and a leader. Caitlyn's first wife worked while she pursued her Olympic dreams -- in order to be a champion you have to have singular focus on that goal -- and she succeeded. Then once achieved, she got a taste of fame and craved that more than competitive sports. -- or her family. In one way or another Caitlyn was in the public eye long after most would have merely been a footnote.

It's interesting that some of the same things that DID make her an Olympic Champion are also the root of why she's so hard to swallow as any kind of Champion at LIFE. It's kind of a cautionary statement on confusing lauding sports achievements with other kinds of praise. The same probably applies to Movie Stars too, come to think of it.

 

It reminds me of how funny it was when Charlie Sheen went off his rocker with the whole "Winning!" thing. We laughed about it, but Charlie was serious. He really DID believe it.  Of course in his case he just vilified everyone who didn't laud him as "Losers!" and built his delusion around that.  Caitlyn's delusion is much more complicated. Hers is to tune out the little people as much as possible, but re-assert the role of Champion (or at least try to) when something is tossed right in her lap and can't be ignored. How some of  the more deliberate deceptions and manipulations (like the Espy Award thing) fit into that mindset, I don't quite get. I mean unless we return to those theories of that being about pressuring the L.A. Prosecutor to not pursue charges (which seemed unlikely anyway in the end, if you go by how little they do for celebs or for that kind of incident). 

[blubld43]

It's almost as annoying as the way Khloe is constantly touching and fixing her hair.

 

And Candis does the same thing; I can't stand it.

[Granny58]

I thought I was the only one feeling that way. I'm wondering if Cait is beginning to regret being so public.

Yeah, me too.  I also didn't appreciate the dramatic music and gaping mouths when the guy said he would have difficulty dating a transgender.  I would have difficulty too!!!!  ESPECIALLY if I was in the reproductive years and wanted children. 

[HumblePi]

I happened to watch Access Live this morning and Candis Cayne was a guest. The show was from August 18th. I have had mixed feelings about Candis. I had felt that she was only present in order to further her career as an 'actress' as her primary motive, and the advancement and benefit of the transgender community as her secondary purpose.

 

First, I have to say that Candis looked absolutely gorgeous and dressed appropriately for daytime television. The biggest impact Candis had on me was how extraordinarily astute, well-spoken and intelligent she is. She has always seemed to say just the right things on the show 'I Am Cait' but I'm aware that these so-called 'reality' shows are scripted and rehearsed. But, in this live interview, she handled herself very professionally and intelligently. I'm not impressed easily and this time I was impressed by Candis Cayne. They showed an interview with her from 2007 in which she was speaking about the LGBT community, and she came across as articulate in that interview as well. One thing she said in this interview this morning really sunk in. She said "She's lived her whole life being transgender but never being able to do anything about it."

 

I have somewhat flipped my overall feelings about Candis. Yes, she's taking advantage of her 15 minutes of fame, and profiting by it in many ways, but she's also attached to Cait as 'a good friend' and there for her as a mentor. She's sincerely part of a movement with a genuine desire to enlighten people about the transgender struggles. I don't think that Caitlyn Jenner could have picked anyone better suited to helping her come out. Candis Cayne has been in this fight and a spokesperson for transgender rights for decades, it's not a new fight for her.

 

 

[Veruca Salt]

 

I also didn't appreciate the dramatic music and gaping mouths when the guy said he would have difficulty dating a transgender.

 

His reaction was probably the most authentic in this whole show when it comes to the real world, not the manufactured rarified atmosphere put forth by E! Not to mention he was blindsided and answered in a fairly kind manner. It certainly wasn't disrespectful. 

 

Becoming Chaz was head and shoulders above this when it came to authenticity. I really wish Jenner chose Logo, PBS or HBO as the conduit instead. 

[ClareWalks]

Yeah, me too.  I also didn't appreciate the dramatic music and gaping mouths when the guy said he would have difficulty dating a transgender.  I would have difficulty too!!!!  ESPECIALLY if I was in the reproductive years and wanted children. 

 

Yeah, that's definitely one thing that isn't necessarily about bigotry to being "seen as gay" or whatever. Even though everyone knows shit happens (I personally had to spend $10,000 on tests and treatments to have a kid), lots of men at least want a shot at having a child the "old-fashioned way," which really to a lot of men means "the cheaper way." Marrying a transgender woman nearly guarantees a lot more financial investment in building a family, whether it be through reproductive endocrinology/surrogacy or through adoption. As an aside, I normally really like the show "I Am Jazz" but the episode where Jazz said "if I want kids, I'll just have my sister conceive and birth them, since we're so genetically similar!" I just thought, whoa, way to encourage your sister to go through a hell of a lot, physically and emotionally, for you to have kids. My point is, having kids is an issue when it comes to seriously dating transgender men and women, and it probably gives some people pause that might not otherwise. If a person has no intention of having kids, that might be a different story.

[Kromm]

I happened to watch Access Live this morning and Candis Cayne was a guest. The show was from August 18th. I have had mixed feelings about Candis. I had felt that she was only present in order to further her career as an 'actress' as her primary motive, and the advancement and benefit of the transgender community as her secondary purpose.

 

First, I have to say that Candis looked absolutely gorgeous and dressed appropriately for daytime television. The biggest impact Candis had on me was how extraordinarily astute, well-spoken and intelligent she is. She has always seemed to say just the right things on the show 'I Am Cait' but I'm aware that these so-called 'reality' shows are scripted and rehearsed. But, in this live interview, she handled herself very professionally and intelligently. I'm not impressed easily and this time I was impressed by Candis Cayne. They showed an interview with her from 2007 in which she was speaking about the LGBT community, and she came across as articulate in that interview as well. One thing she said in this interview this morning really sunk in. She said "She's lived her whole life being transgender but never being able to do anything about it."

 

I have somewhat flipped my overall feelings about Candis. Yes, she's taking advantage of her 15 minutes of fame, and profiting by it in many ways, but she's also attached to Cait as 'a good friend' and there for her as a mentor. She's sincerely part of a movement with a genuine desire to enlighten people about the transgender struggles. I don't think that Caitlyn Jenner could have picked anyone better suited to helping her come out. Candis Cayne has been in this fight and a spokesperson for transgender rights for decades, it's not a new fight for her.

 

 

I'm entirely okay personally with the notion that she's being totally legit in many ways with a lot of things.  But she wouldn't be the first person to be Svengalied or compromised without totally realizing it. Or perhaps if she's that astute, perhaps realizing it after it's too late and she's already on tape (and subject to the editing process) leading Caitlyn around and serving as a "legitimizer" for someone with less commitment, understanding, and (perhaps) less noble goals.

[JacksonOrange]

I have been enjoying watching Cait learn how to be a girlfriend! She sure has a long way to go, but I think that since her heart is in the right place, she'll learn a lot.

[RemoteControlFreak]

Part of Cait's trouble accepting her transition not just as transgender but as, for all intents and purposes, also a lesbian, is that most of her pack of "the girls" are trans women who lived previously as gay men.  Other than Jenny Boylan, she doesn't seem to know many  trans women who formerly lived as straight men.  

Edited September 7, 2015 by remotecontrolfreak