Show Me A Hero - General Discussion

[scrb]

Some of Springsteen's songs -- not his most popular ones -- were about kids ending up in a desperate state, after making some bad choices after those exhilarating joy rides Bruce rhapsodized in his early records.

The black single mother who's turned to crack dramatizes this bad outcome, aging a lot in the first 4 episodes -- but still Brother Muzzone's little girl.

The Puerto Rican single mother may be her just a few years later, trying to dig herself out.

Their segments could be backed by Springsteen songs but not the upbeat, more popular ones.

[represent]

 

The Puerto Rican single mother may be her just a few years later, trying to dig herself out.

Is she Puerto Rican? Because her kids were in the Dominican Republic, she said the DR. Maybe I misheard that.

I'm glad the black single mother went home to her parents. But I didn't get why she didn't do that in the first place? Seems like the offer was always there even before she turned to drugs? I might have missed some of parts 1 and 2. Maybe she was just trying to make it on her own but....

 

Oh forget it, I just saw a post stating that the husband was a drug dealer and I guess her parents knew that and somewhat disowned her?

 

Although it did seem like he had plans to turn his life around. I did see the scene about him planning to return to school as soon as he had the money which I guess he could figure out no other way to get other than dealing drugs.

Edited August 28, 2015 by represent

[seamusk]

The thing is, a lot of people grow up poor but for some reason don't become drug dealers.  The problem when the folks in that project wasn't so much poverty as it was that by the 80's, factory jobs had left the Northeast and there were very few opportunities for people without college degrees.  

Yes, but many people grow up poor and with good character and still become drug dealers. The fact that some are able to overcome it, doesn't mean they all can or will and it doesn't mean they have bad character. Life is more complex than that. But definitely. The loss of factory jobs was brutal.

 

ETA. What I'm basically saying is that the show presented him as a decent person (and it does have that bias of focusing on good people in the projects mostly). And unless you assume all drug dealers everywhere have bad character, there isn't a reason to assume he has bad character because he is a drug dealer. Possibly it's an unknown at worst I think (based on what was shown).

Edited August 29, 2015 by seamusk

[alynch]

There are a few points I'm confused on, and it may be that I missed a few lines of dialogue.  Maybe someone can help me out...

 

--Did the missing red nail-polished buzzer button indicate that Norma was in the wrong building?  Or is she just unable to find the right button to press?  If it's the latter, wouldn't it have made more sense to count the number of buttons down from the top?  Am I over-thinking this?

--What happened with the phone call in the ob-gyn office?  Did her boyfriend have an asthma attack, get shot, or what?  Was it stated?

--Does anyone know how much time has passed in episodes 1-2?  Am I correct that the pregnant woman started out not pregnant and in fact just met her boyfriend for the first time in the beginning of the episode?  If so, then I guess she's our approximate time-passage-indicator.

 

• Norma was in the right building. The nail polish had just been smeared off. You can still see small traces of it on the edges of the button (8th one down)

 

• He had an asthma attack. They don't explicitly state it, but it can be safely assumed based on what the dad says at the hospital: "My boy always had trouble with that. I never knew Skip to breathe without a struggle."

 

• The opening subtitle in Part 1 says "February 1987." The opening subtitle of Part 2 says "January 1988." According to this old LA Times article, the judge's ruling that we see near the end of Part 2 occurred on August 2, 1988. So roughly 18 months pass in the first two episodes.

Edited August 29, 2015 by alynch

[Misstify]

Thank you! I definitely missed the dad's line, and the 1988 subtitle.

[Neurochick]

Is she Puerto Rican? Because her kids were in the Dominican Republic, she said the DR. Maybe I misheard that.

I'm glad the black single mother went home to her parents. But I didn't get why she didn't do that in the first place? Seems like the offer was always there even before she turned to drugs? I might have missed some of parts 1 and 2. Maybe she was just trying to make it on her own but....

 

Oh forget it, I just saw a post stating that the husband was a drug dealer and I guess her parents knew that and somewhat disowned her?

 

Although it did seem like he had plans to turn his life around. I did see the scene about him planning to return to school as soon as he had the money which I guess he could figure out no other way to get other than dealing drugs.

 

I think for this show, one needs to watch more than once, I know that helped me.

 

The Hispanic woman is Dominican I believe, as she kept talking about going back to DR.

 

The black single mother, I believe is a widow, as her husband died of asthma.  He was dealing drugs but told her that he'd change his life before the baby was born, however he died before that happened.  She wasn't disowned by her parents, but wanted to make it on her own, couldn't do it, became depressed and turned to drugs.  Her case showed how devastating the loss of factory jobs was in the Northeast and later in the US.  But she, at least had parents who could help her.

 

The other black woman, who got involved with the man who went to jail, is a single mother, as she's neither married nor engaged.  She's a person who made one bad choice after another, dropped out of school, didn't want to work, started hanging out, had unprotected sex with a man she didn't know, got pregnant, then he went to jail. etc.   Her case, to me was like, "this is what happens when you are poor."  I have known middle class girls who didn't want to go to school, and their parents told them to at least finish the year and in the summer, they'd get them an office job or something to keep them busy (I had one of those type of job when I was a teenager in the 70's) you go to work, make a little money, feel better about yourself, and by the time school starts, you feel, "this isn't so bad" because you know when you get out of high school, you can get something better.   

Edited August 30, 2015 by Neurochick

[represent]

 

The other black woman, who got involved with the man who went to jail, is a single mother, as she's neither married nor engaged.

It's interesting because I never saw her as a woman, to me she was a kid, a teenager. Just like the teenagers on that reality show "16 and Pregnant" I believe it's called. Except those girls aren't growing up in the "ghetto" but are "rewarded" with a reality show for their choices IMO.I believe she was still in high school and the other one who was married looked like she could have been 22 to me which is still pretty much  a wet behind the ears baby, her husband looked even younger than her.

 

The teenager looks like she is still oblivious as to how hard life will become for her, but she looks like she loves that baby and does not see him as  a burden. She has not been written to show any signs that she sees her life as difficult IMO, at least not yet. She smiles around that baby and she smiles and seems upbeat around that boyfriend in a prison no less. I suspect that being a mother is in her mind, the most successful thing she has or ever will do. That and waiting to have this "family unit" with her boyfriend when he comes out of jail. She seemed the most angry unfortunately, around the mother who we all know is correct in terms of where she's not going in life without an education.

 

Oh and that health care worker who was scared and needed to be walked to her car, I don't blame her one damn bit. I feel bad that a decent woman who has cared for others now can't get someone to easily come and care for her but I'm sorry. Those buildings look drab, they look unsafe especially for any woman and if you don't have to enter them why would you? I don't know what the answer is but that woman like she said to her friend shouldn't have to move out of her neighborhood where she said she feels comfortable because at least she doesn't feel hated for race....just because no one official can get rid of the drugs and violence. It's a damn shame and the same old story. But I can't blame that nurse, sorry.

Edited August 30, 2015 by represent

[Primetimer]

HBO's miniseries winds up its run with an exceptional, emotional finale.

Read the story

[Neurochick]

It's really because the factory jobs left the Northeast that the projects became dangerous. My mother grew up in the projects in Virginia in the 1940's but at that time people had jobs.

[Neurochick]

Wow, what an ending. Sad.

[SeanC]

The sad downfall of a man who could not find satisfaction in anything outside of municipal politics, and was destroyed by it.  No Springsteen this week, signalling that we're truly in the dark period of Nick's life.

 

Billie's storyline is marred by the fact that the guy playing John is the one dud actor in the ensemble.

 

I had never realized, until they were all in one room, how all of the POV characters in the projects (sorry, complex) were women (and typically single mothers).

Edited August 31, 2015 by SeanC

[represent]

 

Wow, what an ending. Sad.

It was but I knew he had committed suicide, what I didn't know was how the housing worked out and if they would eventually feel at home and fit in with the community. It appears that they did, so I guess he did not die in vein although he never got to see it.

 

And there is definitely something to that judge's concept of building low-income housing. 

 

Catherine Keener's character was truly a good neighbor and she wasn't ignorant, which is key. She did not  let her fears make her ignorant which is basically what happens in these situations. She was willing to listen, see things for herself, learn things. These were all good people well except a couple like Billie's man, jeesh. But I think Billie was starting come around in terms of cutting him off which is why he claimed he poked holes in the condom.  Too little to late for her though.

 

I remember an old woman once told me you better pray that the wrong man never comes into your life, it's a never ending virus if "he" does, ugh.  This is what happened to Billie and by the time she started to wake up it was too late. 

 

Happy for Carmen, such pride. She wasn't going to take the new CorningWare out until she got a new home, new start.

 

The sad downfall of a man who could not find satisfaction in anything outside of municipal politics, and was destroyed by it.  No Springsteen this week, signalling that we're truly in the dark period of Nick's life.

 

That investigation they were opening up didn't help matters, that sent him over the edge, his reputation. It's fucked up because just opening the investigation was enough then and sure as hell is enough these days to cast doubt on anyone's reputation, and  a politician even worse. He was portrayed to be a bit needy and clingy IMO in these last three or four episodes. He seemed just jittery, like he was always on the verge of a meltdown. To me they did a good job of portraying him as being  a little off, not that emotionally strong, like something was just under the surface.

Edited August 31, 2015 by represent

[Neurochick]

I knew he committed suicide too, didn't make it any less sad.

As far as the wrong man, the decision is always yours and some women need to learn how to vet.

Edited August 31, 2015 by Neurochick

[represent]

 

As far as the wrong man, the decision is always yours and some women need to learn how to vet.

Well this is a given, but she wasn't a woman which was her first problem. She was a child, a teenager, when she made the decision to chuck school and not listen to her mother but, oh well. She was definitely not in college when she told her mother she wasn't going back to school so for me that makes her a child not a woman. So she shouldn't know about vetting a man. Her "smart" ass should have just listened to her mother.

I suspect  many of those good women didn't know how to vet because it can't be just a coincidence that they were all single mothers. Heck Billie's mother probably didn't know how to vet either since we never see Billie's father. Billie's man, well his mother didn't know how to vet based on what he was saying about his own father so....

 

I knew he committed suicide too, didn't make it any less sad.

 

I believe I said it was sad. But I just think the series ended with hope as well.

Edited August 31, 2015 by represent

[Neurochick]

You're right Billie was a child, she should have been in school.

[Milburn Stone]

The sad downfall of a man who could not find satisfaction in anything outside of municipal politics, and was destroyed by it. 

 

I think that's part of the story. The other part is that when we do something good, something right, we may not reap rewards for it--we may even pay dearly for it--but that makes it no less noble to have done that right thing. Nick himself couldn't see this--but in watching his story, we can.

[represent]

 

I think that's part of the story. The other part is that when we do something good, something right, we may not reap rewards for it--we may even pay dearly for it--but that makes it no less noble to have done that right thing. Nick himself couldn't see this--but in watching his story, we can.

I agree. I was watching the Rock n Roll Hall of Fame and Lou Reed's widow said something to the effect of we die three times. First when we stop breathing, then when we're buried and then when people no longer talk about us or simply mention our names. So what you posted just brought that to mind. They're writing, talking about him, telling his story and its truth. At least this is a tribute to him and maybe some kind of peace to the loved ones he left behind. 

Edited August 31, 2015 by represent

[BooBear]

The sad downfall of a man who could not find satisfaction in anything outside of municipal politics, and was destroyed by it.  No Springsteen this week, signalling that we're truly in the dark period of Nick's life.

I just didn't get this entire thing. I don't feel Nick was a hero at all.  It is not even clear to me that all of what happened wouldn't have happened anyway. The world is littered with people that get used and spit out just in general in the working world. Never mind municipal politics. At the end Nick was so desperate to retain his world he betrayed just about everyone. Isn't that really how he fell at the end? How is that a hero?  As was pointed out he did have a law degree and was young. There was a ton of stuff he could have done. I don't even think what he did for the housing was heroic. He was forced due to a Federal Judge. The Judge is the hero.

[Milburn Stone]

II don't feel Nick was a hero at all.  It is not even clear to me that all of what happened wouldn't have happened anyway...How is that a hero?...I don't even think what he did for the housing was heroic. He was forced due to a Federal Judge. The Judge is the hero.

 

I get this. But I think It's going a bit too far to say that Nick did nothing. The small thing he did, to me, underscores the point of the story. By not throwing himself in the path of the judge's order, but instead moving the city of Yonkers towards compliance, he helped make it happen. Certainly he helped make it happen sooner. And maybe by reaching out to Mary Dorman, treating her with respect despite her opposition, he catalyzed a process within her that made a difference to the world. And that's what makes this hero story different from others. Other hero stories are about men and women who do big things. This is a hero story about a man who did his part. Who did his best to be an example to others, and lead them in the right direction.

 

Nick himself could only sporadically see the true value of what he did. And at the end he couldn't. His blindness to the goodness in him was a tragedy. But for all of us, just getting through life as best we can, he's an example that doing our part to do good in whatever way we can, especially when it's not easy, is its own form of heroism.

Edited August 31, 2015 by Milburn Stone

[ElectricBoogaloo]

[Constantinople]

It would have been nice to find out what happened to the kids of Billie, Doreen and Carmen, etc. who grew-up in the town houses (or in Billie's case, didn't since they were eventually evicted).  I think the credits said one of them is a grandmother, but that's about it.

[Kenz]

Oscar Isaac is such a wonderful actor. This series was compelling because of his nuanced portrayal of a complicated man. Catherine Keener as Mary Dorman was terrific too. I kept watching the series mainly because of these two actors.

[alynch]

I get this. But I think It's going a bit too far to say that Nick did nothing. The small thing he did, to me, underscores the point of the story. By not throwing himself in the path of the judge's order, but instead moving the city of Yonkers towards compliance, he helped make it happen. Certainly he helped make it happen sooner. And maybe by reaching out to Mary Dorman, treating her with respect despite her opposition, he catalyzed a process within her that made a difference to the world. And that's what makes this hero story different from others. Other hero stories are about men and women who do big things. This is a hero story about a man who did his part. Who did his best to be an example to others, and lead them in the right direction.

 

Nick himself could only sporadically see the true value of what he did. And at the end he couldn't. His blindness to the goodness in him was a tragedy. But for all of us, just getting through life as best we can, he's an example that doing our part to do good in whatever way we can, especially when it's not easy, is its own form of heroism.

 

I agree with this completely. I tend to believe that the noble, self-sacrificing hero is usually (although admittedly, not always) a myth developed in people's imaginations as a result of popular fiction and hagiographic history. It's a narrow interpretation of heroism that places far too much importance on a person's motives and not nearly enough importance on what someone actually does. It's an interpretation I have no use for. Nick Wasicsko was faced with a crucial decision at a crucial moment: he could've fought the judge until the bitter end to the detriment of his city but to the benefit of his popularity or he could comply, thereby helping a lot of people gain better lives and preventing his city from cratering.

 

Presented with that choice, he put doing the right thing (i.e. governing responsibly) ahead of his popularity and in doing so helped a lot of people. The fact that he didn't seem to be motivated by the noble pursuit of justice (although he did seem to genuinely believe in it eventually) doesn't strike me as particularly important. I also don't care all that much that he tried desperately to climb his way out of political martyrdom rather than accept it with grace and dignity.

Edited August 31, 2015 by alynch

[wendyg]

Well, it's like Vinnie said: the political life is addictive. Doubtless for some, more than others. She was able to pull herself back together. But she had some assets Nick didn't: she was older and maybe stabilized by the fact of having kids. One problem with achieving a big success very young is you think it's the natural order of things. It can be very hard to come to grips with the possibility that you got lucky and were just in the right place at the right time. Nick thought *he* beat Belushi's character; in reality, anyone would have won in his place. That's a hard lesson.

[wendyg]

I think the other thing about Billie is that it's all so precarious: a middle-class white kid can afford to be a spoiled brat and act entitled because their parents provide a safety net - they may fret, complain, push, even bully, but in the end unless there are drugs involved they won't let that kid starve - and they'll teach her about birth control. For Billie, the self-indulgence that a white kid has the resources to outgrow is disastrous, as is her preference to believe that the guy who's gotten her pregnant will stick to his word when he says he'll take care of her and the kid(s).

[Neurochick]

I agree with this completely. I tend to believe that the noble, self-sacrificing hero is usually (although admittedly, not always) a myth developed in people's imaginations as a result of popular fiction and hagiographic history. It's a narrow interpretation of heroism that places far too much importance on a person's motives and not nearly enough importance on what someone actually does. It's an interpretation I have no use for. Nick Wasicsko was faced with a crucial decision at a crucial moment: he could've fought the judge until the bitter end to the detriment of his city but to the benefit of his popularity or he could comply, thereby helping a lot of people gain better lives and preventing his city from cratering.

 

Presented with that choice, he put doing the right thing (i.e. governing responsibly) ahead of his popularity and in doing so helped a lot of people. The fact that he didn't seem to be motivated by the noble pursuit of justice (although he did seem to genuinely believe in it eventually) doesn't strike me as particularly important. I also don't care all that much that he tried desperately to climb his way out of political martyrdom rather than accept it with grace and dignity.

 

I agree with this.  As for Vinnie, I don't understand why people think that if a woman has children she's magically stable.  I think Vinnie was just older than Nick and knew that the political life wasn't everything.  At the end of the episode, they said that Nick's funeral was on election day 1993, and it was the first time in 8 years that his name wasn't on the ballot for something.  Now he was 34 years old when he died, which meant he was 26 when he got into politics; that's very young and politics is VERY addictive; I've been to many political functions in my lifetime and I get why it's so addictive, it's nice to have people kissing your ass and doing stuff for you 24/7/365, not to mention the power.

 

I think Nick confused being elected for office with being loved.  That scene of him going to the town homes, knocking on the doors was sad; it was like he wanted them to love him, he wanted them to say, "Thank you Mr. Mayor."  But that doesn't happen in real life.  

[Constantinople]

I just didn't get this entire thing. I don't feel Nick was a hero at all.  It is not even clear to me that all of what happened wouldn't have happened anyway. The world is littered with people that get used and spit out just in general in the working world. Never mind municipal politics. At the end Nick was so desperate to retain his world he betrayed just about everyone. Isn't that really how he fell at the end? How is that a hero?  As was pointed out he did have a law degree and was young. There was a ton of stuff he could have done. I don't even think what he did for the housing was heroic. He was forced due to a Federal Judge. The Judge is the hero.

 

I don't see the judge as a hero. He's just doing his job, to which he has a lifetime appointment. One of the reasons, if not the reason, federal judges have lifetime appointments is so they won't be swayed by politics. He didn't have to sacrifice or risk anything in making his decision.

 

Well, it's like Vinnie said: the political life is addictive. Doubtless for some, more than others. She was able to pull herself back together. But she had some assets Nick didn't: she was older and maybe stabilized by the fact of having kids. One problem with achieving a big success very young is you think it's the natural order of things. It can be very hard to come to grips with the possibility that you got lucky and were just in the right place at the right time. Nick thought *he* beat Belushi's character; in reality, anyone would have won in his place. That's a hard lesson.

A little perspective could have helped. I've always remembered the story about Themistocles's father pointing out the abandoned, rotting ships on the beach and then telling his son that was how Athens treated its leaders after they had no further use for them. Not that Themistocles listened any more than Nick probably would have (Easy for me to say. I ran for office once, in the 5th grade, lost and left it at that).

It is interesting that during the course of the series, every mayor lost his bid for re-election.

Edited August 31, 2015 by Constantinople

[represent]

 

As for Vinnie, I don't understand why people think that if a woman has children she's magically stable.

That's the culture, around the world. If you don't use that uterus and get married then what have you really accomplished as a woman (eye roll). People can't help it, it's ingrained in our culture.

But if your eyes are open one can darn well see all the fucked up women who have procreated, who are anything but stable. Motherhood did not make them stable in the least. Which is horrifying for the children they've mothered and eventually maybe society as a whole.  And you don't have to live in the ghetto and be poor to be considered an unstable parent, unstable involves a lot more than economic standard of living. I thought Carmen was stable but I'm not so sure Vinnie was, the legally blind mother seemed more stable... What the hell was she doing? Did Nick even really sleep with her, or was she just that nuts over the politics of it all? I know he gave her a peck when they were drunk outside that bar, but I wasn't sure there was ever more. 

 

think Nick confused being elected for office with being loved.  That scene of him going to the town homes, knocking on the doors was sad; it was like he wanted them to love him, he wanted them to say, "Thank you Mr. Mayor."  But that doesn't happen in real life.

 

 

He definitely did, I was like you can't do it for gratitude, cause that may never happen. I think the legally blind lady remembered him because she is simply more well informed and she was older. Then she pointed out remembering him being spat on, oh lord. The other women that he tried to speak to seemed a bit younger and would not have been paying any attention to politics. It was a sad scene nonetheless.

 

 

I also thought about how every time he visited his father's grave and saw his image, what Nick saw in his father's facial expressions toward him, never seemed like expressions of approval. Maybe that's just the way he always looked but his image just looked like if he were alive he might not have approved of what Nick did. I don't know, just not one nod of approval did Nick see, I know I didn't see it. He actually would just look at him with his lip turned up and then just look away.  Maybe that's what it was all really about that relationship with a father that may not have been so supportive, one who was always trying to prove himself to be worthy.

 

I also found it noteworthy that the residents of those new homes were never scared enough in the projects to be shown to sleep with bats near their beds and knives under their pillows. All I kept thinking was, there was no place where they truly felt safe. They knew the ghetto wasn't safe which is why they moved even though they weren't shown to be on edge like they were in the new neighborhood. But then they get to the new neighborhood and Billie is so scared she jumps up to go back to her mothers. She woke those kids up and said that they were going to grandmas. I noticed that.

Edited August 31, 2015 by represent

[Mindymoo]

I didn't get the impression that Nick actually slept with Vinnie, especially when the woman chastised her for making that phone call. I think she was playing dirty politics. Nay was shaken by it, but she believed Nick, and I did too.

[represent]

I didn't get the impression that Nick actually slept with Vinnie, especially when the woman chastised her for making that phone call. I think she was playing dirty politics. Nay was shaken by it, but she believed Nick, and I did too.

 

Ok, this is what I thought too. If so, that stunt is not what I would call stable and one should try to be stable before bringing children into the world IMO. 

[lidarose9]

Does anyone know why they chose an actress in her late 50s to play an elderly woman (Mary Dornan)? Is there a shortage of older actresses these days? 

[alynch]

Does anyone know why they chose an actress in her late 50s to play an elderly woman (Mary Dornan)? Is there a shortage of older actresses these days? 

 

They're actually about the same age. Keener was 55 at the time of filming. Mary Dorman was born in 1932. She was just a 50-something who happened to have gray hair and glasses.

Edited August 31, 2015 by alynch

[Neurochick]

Thinking about Billie's story makes me sad.  To me she was a child who never had a chance.  She wanted to become a woman and then found out it wasn't what she thought it was.

 

As for black women vetting their men, some manage to do it quite well.   http://www.beyondblackwhite.com/my-cousin-just-married-interculturally-and-it-was-a-beautiful-thing/

 

But more importantly, Lester Freeman!!  (Fans of The Wire will know what I'm talking about)

Edited August 31, 2015 by Neurochick

[represent]

As for black women vetting their men, some manage to do it quite well.   http://www.beyondbla...eautiful-thing/

 

I know, my mother did quite well. She and my dad have have done quite well in the vetting department, 49 years worth of marriage.

Although I did't think that black women in particular had this problem, no matter what the "experts" claim. Maybe they have difficulty finding men to marry, because according to the "experts" they are the group that is most single, but that would mean that maybe they never really get much a chance to vet in the first place, because there aren't any decent prospects IMO.

 

Which I guess supports your point that they  do vet quite well because they aren't going to take scraps, they'll just remain single.

 

 

Thinking about Billie's story makes me sad.  To me she was a child who never had a chance.  She wanted to become a woman and then found out it wasn't what she thought it was.

It's interesting, that the friend of hers had no children. I don't know where her parents were because that apartment always seemed like a hangout for friends, but her friend had enough of a head on her shoulder not to bring life into that situation. She also told Billie that she would not do that "shit" for anyone, meaning she would not be having a baby much less visiting and writing letters to someone like Santos who ended up in Rikers.  

Edited August 31, 2015 by represent

[Neurochick]

Regarding vetting:  Just because you won't take scraps doesn't mean you have to remain single, that's what the site I liked really states.  

 

I think Billie's friend realized the mess Billie was in and thought, "not me baby."  

 

I think Nick wanted to be love; politics is addictive though.  I remember Mayor Bloomberg in NYC had the rules changed so he could run for a third term as mayor.  If he hadn't won by the skin of his teeth, he would have tried for a fourth term.  

 

Vinnie was older, she knew that politics are like a see saw, you're up, you're down, you're up, you're down.  If you're down and then wait long enough, you'll be up again.  All Nick needed to do was sit back, get some popcorn and watch the fur fly, and eventually they'll want YOU to run for something again.  But it was sad, I got his depression, his desperation, he just couldn't see past the day he was in.  That's why to me it was a sad story.  

[SeanC]

I just didn't get this entire thing. I don't feel Nick was a hero at all.  It is not even clear to me that all of what happened wouldn't have happened anyway. The world is littered with people that get used and spit out just in general in the working world. Never mind municipal politics. At the end Nick was so desperate to retain his world he betrayed just about everyone. Isn't that really how he fell at the end? How is that a hero?  As was pointed out he did have a law degree and was young. There was a ton of stuff he could have done. I don't even think what he did for the housing was heroic. He was forced due to a Federal Judge. The Judge is the hero.

Where did I say he was a hero?

 

More to the point, the "Show me a hero quote" is, in full, "Show me a hero, and I'll write you a tragedy", meaning Nick is being described as a tragic hero, undone by his tragic flaw, the need for recognition.  That doesn't mean he was heroic; indeed, I'd say the series shows the opposite; he was a relatively decent guy who opportunistically rode a wave of resentment into office and then had to grapple with doing the actual job, where he mostly tried to take the reasonable path (before his disintegration after he lost office).  The series is quite clear that he was just one of many actors.

Edited August 31, 2015 by SeanC

[Penman61]

The sad downfall of a man who could not find satisfaction in anything outside of municipal politics, and was destroyed by it.  No Springsteen this week, signalling that we're truly in the dark period of Nick's life.

 

 

Not correct: I heard "My Beautiful Reward"; and whatever that falsetto song was near the end sounded like Springsteen to me.  ETA: It's Springsteen's "Lift Me Up."  

Edited August 31, 2015 by Penman61

[scrb]

Strange at first Wasickso had all this positive energy, especially the brash way he said he was going to get his girl.

Women are swooning over Oscar Issac so that charisma worked early on.

But obviously the guy was unbalanced, only had politics and nothing else so aside from the star power, it's a strange casting choice for the character.

[wendyg]

As for Vinnie, I don't understand why people think that if a woman has children she's magically stable.

 

I said "maybe" - she does talk about how much she loves her kids, albeit with the clear indication that it's not enough to counter the depression she feels having lost her seat. You're right that many people do seem to think that; I don't happen to be one of them, but I'll note that I have seen both women *and* men react to the life change that is becoming parents by changing how they view their lives and the decisions they make. Vinnie clearly was older, had better perspective, and was more emotionally stable - the difference between being circumstantially depressed and being clinically depressed, might be a way to put it. And put that way, no, no amount of children would have helped Nick!

[Neurochick]

Strange at first Wasickso had all this positive energy, especially the brash way he said he was going to get his girl.

Women are swooning over Oscar Issac so that charisma worked early on.

But obviously the guy was unbalanced, only had politics and nothing else so aside from the star power, it's a strange casting choice for the character.

 

I think Oscar Issac was perfect for this part.  They needed someone with charisma, someone you focused on when he was on screen.  I mean the real Wasickso was 28 when he became mayor, he had to have some charisma to do that.  

 

 

I said "maybe" - she does talk about how much she loves her kids, albeit with the clear indication that it's not enough to counter the depression she feels having lost her seat. You're right that many people do seem to think that; I don't happen to be one of them, but I'll note that I have seen both women *and* men react to the life change that is becoming parents by changing how they view their lives and the decisions they make. Vinnie clearly was older, had better perspective, and was more emotionally stable - the difference between being circumstantially depressed and being clinically depressed, might be a way to put it. And put that way, no, no amount of children would have helped Nick!

 

 

I think people who change how they view their lives, after they have children were probably emotionally stable before they had children. I don't think Vinnie was that stable because had she been emotionally stable, she wouldn't have called Nay and suggested that Nick was cheating on her; I found that very high school, strike that, I found that very middle school.  

[represent]

 

I think Oscar Issac was perfect for this part.  They needed someone with charisma, someone you focused on when he was on screen.  I mean the real Wasickso was 28 when he became mayor, he had to have some charisma to do that.

I agree. I think the casting overall was great.

[Constantinople]

I think the other thing about Billie is that it's all so precarious: a middle-class white kid can afford to be a spoiled brat and act entitled because their parents provide a safety net - they may fret, complain, push, even bully, but in the end unless there are drugs involved they won't let that kid starve - and they'll teach her about birth control. For Billie, the self-indulgence that a white kid has the resources to outgrow is disastrous, as is her preference to believe that the guy who's gotten her pregnant will stick to his word when he says he'll take care of her and the kid(s).

Speaking of self-indulgent, spoiled brats who are spared the consequences of their actions because adults intervene, i.e, the hypothetical middle-class white kid, I watched Episode 3 again last night.

Thanks to the Supreme Court lifting the fines on the recalcitrant city councilors, and Nick acting like an adult, Spallone & Co. and the majority of the voters were spared the consequences of their actions.

I think it was a mistake for the Supreme Court to lift the fines on the city councilors who kept voting No. Spare the rod (pocketbook) and spoil the child (city councilor).

Part of me wonders if it was a mistake for Nick to round up a majority on the city council. Perhaps he should have let Yonkers go bankrupt.

Edited September 1, 2015 by Constantinople

[seamusk]

Well this is a given, but she wasn't a woman which was her first problem. She was a child, a teenager, when she made the decision to chuck school and not listen to her mother but, oh well. She was definitely not in college when she told her mother she wasn't going back to school so for me that makes her a child not a woman. So she shouldn't know about vetting a man. Her "smart" ass should have just listened to her mother.

I suspect  many of those good women didn't know how to vet because it can't be just a coincidence that they were all single mothers. Heck Billie's mother probably didn't know how to vet either since we never see Billie's father. Billie's man, well his mother didn't know how to vet based on what he was saying about his own father so....

 

Maybe her smart ass should have listened to her mother, but the reality is that not everyone is skilled at picking a partner. And i'm not supportive of the notion that it was somehow Billie's fault because she was attracted to the wrong man. Sounds like blaming the victim to me. And there are lots of ways that could have gone wrong after they met. In fact, that's a big part of the story. While he was certainly into trouble when they met, the prison system in America is not what it should be when it comes to rehabilitation.

 

 

I don't see the judge as a hero. He's just doing his job, to which he has a lifetime appointment. One of the reasons, if not the reason, federal judges have lifetime appointments is so they won't be swayed by politics. He didn't have to sacrifice or risk anything in making his decision.

 

It's true that that is the point of judicial appointments, rather than elections. However, as someone who has followed and studied law to some degree, it takes courage to act as this judge did. As much as there was surely pressure to force integration, it takes a lot of courage to make the right decision when an entire town is railing against you. Judges are not always figures of strength and objectivity.

 

I know, my mother did quite well. She and my dad have have done quite well in the vetting department, 49 years worth of marriage.

Although I did't think that black women in particular had this problem, no matter what the "experts" claim. Maybe they have difficulty finding men to marry, because according to the "experts" they are the group that is most single, but that would mean that maybe they never really get much a chance to vet in the first place, because there aren't any decent prospects IMO.

 

It's poverty. Long before there were projects full of African Americans in the 1960s, there were slums full of Irish Americans in the 1860s. And many of the symptoms are the same.

[Neurochick]

It's poverty. Long before there were projects full of African Americans in the 1960s, there were slums full of Irish Americans in the 1860s. And many of the symptoms are the same.

 

 

True.  However, African Americans didn't just appear in the projects in the 1960's.  My mom lived in a project in Virginia, in the 1940's.  But at that time, everybody had a job, working for the war effort.  

[PamelaMaeSnap]

Great finale, and a very good series. To me, it pales in comparison to "The Wire" and, in fact, to the much-maligned "Treme" which I adored, but still a good watch.

 

But, while I understand that a six-episode miniseries is not going to be able to fill in all the holes, I still felt left with a lot of questions and so I have ordered Lisa Belkin's book, which is due to arrive tomorrow. Hopefully that clears up some of my confusion, possible misconceptions, etc. 

 

My one question, though: I wonder why Clarke Peters is not listed in the show's cast on IMDB? (LESTER FREAMON!!!!!!!!! CHIEF LAMBREAUX!!!!!!! Pretty much one of the very few actors whose presence in a cast will be enough for me to watch it). 

 

 

[represent]

 

My one question, though: I wonder why Clarke Peters is not listed in the show's cast on IMDB? (LESTER FREAMON!!!!!!!!! CHIEF LAMBREAUX!!!!!!! Pretty much one of the very few actors whose presence in a cast will be enough for me to watch it).

I saw his name way down on the list, but it was there. I looked because I couldn't remember his name.

Edited September 3, 2015 by represent

[represent]

 

t's poverty. Long before there were projects full of African Americans in the 1960s, there were slums full of Irish Americans in the 1860s. And many of the symptoms are the same.

True.  However, African Americans didn't just appear in the projects in the 1960's.  My mom lived in a project in Virginia, in the 1940's.  But at that time, everybody had a job, working for the war effort.

True, but they didn't just appear in the projects period, I mentioned this to my mother. Because she grew up poor in the islands until she came to the states at the age of fourteen and lived in house with her aunt and her husband.  This was back in the late 50's/60's. She never grew up in the projects and neither did my dad who also came here from the islands as a teenager and they were poor immigrants no less. And neither house was from low income housing either. The same can be said for all of my parents' friends who were also poor immigrants.   I never grew up in the projects, I grew up in a house no where near the projects, could walk safely down the block to my elementary school, with my friend. And was not in the south either it was right in NY, Brooklyn, NY no less. I went to a high school that was awesome because it was like attending the United Nations, it wasn't "segregated" which seems to be what public schools have unfortunately become.  I know when I tell people who are not from NYC that I'm from Brooklyn, sometimes I get this reaction as if I've lived in a war zone, and I'm like sorry to bus that bubble. If you didn't know any better, based on this show you'd think that just about every black person was living in the projects and I know that ain't the case.  Well  Doreen's parents were shown and you could tell that they didn't live in the projects if you were paying close enough attention but they were barely on so...

 

African Americans have always been poor but they weren't all concentrated in the projects; they lived in homes in close communities when there wasn't all the drug pushing, black on black crime etc.. and that includes in the cities of this country and not just in the southern communities.

 

You know the most important take away for me from this series is how they construct low income housing IMO.  

 

 

Also, on another note, I didn't get why after two years Billie was evicted. I wanted to know why she was still evicted after two years. I figured maybe after Santos was convicted maybe that was the reason. I'll tell you, I wouldn't bet on her decision making when it came to him. She so wanted it to work, she wanted a family, a two parent home for her kids, but he wasn't family man material, poor girl. And if it weren't for 25 years to life, if and when he got parole I could see him possibly being able to persuade her to take him back. Bad habits are to break for some girls/women when it comes to their mates and he's a detriment to any community trying to be healthy and thrive. Jeesh, he pissed me off. Girl went and got you and your kids a nice home actually it was her mother who filled out the paper work, you can sit on your ass and play video games and still you went out to commit crimes and murder no less, oh fuck it, please. 

At least get picked up for stealing  a loaf of bread and some milk to feed your hungry babies, but fucking murder?

Edited September 3, 2015 by represent

[Neurochick]

My point was that the "projects" back then were nice, my mom said that they were like town houses.  The projects weren't looked at as being a bad place to live.  I remember going to the projects in Virginia in the 1970's and yes, they were like town houses.  Everybody had a front yard, a back yard.  I didn't even know they were the projects until I was a teenager.  That's because that idea of public housing makes sense; it's only when you have high rises that you start to have trouble.  

 

My point is, there was a time when the projects weren't crime ridden, when the projects weren't such a bad place to live.  I think the projects got bad in the northeast when the factory jobs left.  

 

Sure some people lived in houses.  Lots of black people lived and still live in brownstones in Harlem, but the show was about public housing and people's perception of it and of the people who lived there.  

Edited September 3, 2015 by Neurochick

[attica]

I was very happy to see the side-by-side photos of the actors and the characters they played at the end. Hysterical that Peter Reigert's guy actually had that horrible/awesome Amish beard!

[represent]

 

Sure some people lived in houses.  Lots of black people lived and still live in brownstones in Harlem, but the show was about public housing and people's perception of it and of the people who lived there.

Black people live in all kinds of houses in every borough of NYC. And it's true it was about public housing, my point is that if you didn't know any better you might think that public housing was the only way that black people were going to get an opportunity buy a home in Yonkers, NY. Granted it gave more of them an opportunity but....

 

 

I think the projects got bad in the northeast when the factory jobs left.

My point on this is, that black communities have a history of being poor, working class, so not having jobs has always been the case. Struggling to keep a  job has always been the case. Not being able to afford higher education, has always been the case. But there was a time when being poor and out of work in a black community did not mean drugs and black on black crime, at least not to extent that it is today. I forgot the actor, he's from um, New Orleans and he played a detective on The Wire, the chubby faced guy, I like him, but I can't remember the actor's name. He was in Treme too with Clarke Peters, he played a musician. But he talked about this on Bill Maher, about growing up in a poor black community in New Orleans and that even though it was poor there was still that sense of community. You had everyone looking out for their neighbor, so poor and jobless isn't the key IMO in terms of how you treat and live among your fellow neighbors who are jobless and poor just like you.

 

That's because that idea of public housing makes sense; it's only when you have high rises that you start to have trouble

 

And I was thinking about this too, because the area in Baltimore where The Wire takes place is full of mostly row homes, but homes nonetheless. They aren't these clusters of  high-rise buildings. Yet the area still deteriorated into that cycle of drugs and high crime.

Edited September 3, 2015 by represent