S03.E13: The Wrath Of The Lamb

[Crossbow]

About Molly:

I just finished the book this morning. She doesn't leave him but he thinks she's going to. I don't believe it's ever mentioned again.

I really liked her on the show though - wish they'd done more with her. Maybe that was the plan for season 4, have her save Will from Hannibal.

Edited September 2, 2015 by Crossbow

[Neurochick]

I see it like this:  Will's like, "I love you Hannibal, but you're a killer and you belong in jail, even though I really love you and really don't want you in jail, you're still a killer, so you belong in jail, but I really don't want you in jail..."

 

Hannibal's like, "I love you Will, even though you want to put me in prison, even though you betray me; I want to kill you, but I can't; because my life means nothing without you, you're the only one who gets me."  

[murf1013]

I see it like this: Will's like, "I love you Hannibal, but you're a killer and you belong in jail, even though I really love you and really don't want you in jail, you're still a killer, so you belong in jail, but I really don't want you in jail..."

Hannibal's like, "I love you Will, even though you want to put me in prison, even though you betray me; I want to kill you, but I can't; because my life means nothing without you, you're the only one who gets me."

Exactly!!! Personally I don't think either one of them could survive or be happy without the other in their orbit. If Jack hadn't pulled will into the Tooth Fairy case ... I fully believe will would've eventually gone back to Hannibal on his own.

I have to say that this episode has really stuck with me. I've loved Hannibal since the very first second of the first episode ... but watching will fully embrace his dark side and join Hannibal was gripping. And when they embraced, then toppled over the cliff together ... it was absolutely perfect and stunning.

I saw it mentioned somewhere that Hannibal seemed to look sort of shocked when they fell. I didn't see that at all. All I saw was acceptance.

Sorry. I'm sort of jumping around, but I still can't think straight.

[Captanne]

I saw that last moment as epically tragic.  Will finally acknowledged he couldn't deny the seduction of Evil and gave his life to protect others from it.

 

I found it amazingly sad.

 

I cannot in any way, ever forget that Hannibal is pure mischievous Evil.  

 

I only feel sorrow for someone who succumbs to him.  And I'm amazingly proud of Will for his last act of strength.

 

Do you think that was also pride, along with the acceptance, in Hannibal's eyes?

 

(Hopefully it's not the Last Act. >g<)

[murf1013]

Do you think that was also pride, along with the acceptance, in Hannibal's eyes?

Yes!!! I 100% think that Hannibal felt pride. In a way, he won. Will finally went there with him. How could he not be proud? That final scene (I'm chosing to ignore bedelia and her leg) ... it was just so ... all encompassing. Does that make sense? Almost every emotion was involved. Love, hate, fear, forgiveness, guilt, pride, passion ... and more that I can't even think of.

These were two men who were so different, yet still the same. And they fell in love ... I don't think it was sexual, but it was definitely love. It was perfect.

Jesus. I seriously think I've fallen even further in love with this show. I wasn't sure that was possible.

Edited September 3, 2015 by murf1013

[Captanne]

Hmm.  I'm not convinced Will loved Hannibal and I'm almost 100% sure Hannibal is incapable of love (depending on one's definition.)  

 

Hannibal was a brutal abuser.

 

ETA:  I agree with the pride.  I think Hannibal was proud of the man he desperately wanted to be his protege (I'll even go so far as to say his equal.)  Personally, I think Will was by FAR the finer man.  What I don't understand is how Hannibal gets romanticized.  He is a monster.

Edited September 3, 2015 by Captanne

[MisterGlass]

Hannibal has a lot of the qualities of a romantic hero.  He's educated.  He's polite.  He appreciates art and beauty.  He's a gourmand.  He has a way with words.  He dresses well.  He carries himself with authority.  He is mysterious.  These are genuinely his characteristics, and not affectations.  It happens that they are coupled with a personality so convinced of its superiority and so unbound by societal pressures that murder and cannibalism are not only permissible, but indulgences.  "I happened."  Hannibal is a controlling, curious, abusive, narcissist who loves opera, fine wine, cooking for acquaintances, and life itself.  It is hard to hold all his deeds in mind at the same time, and unpleasant thoughts are the ones we allow to recede. 

 

Another problem is Hannibal's motivation.  So often he triggers catastrophe thought curiosity as much as malice.  That makes him seem closer to the trickster archetype than to a death figure.  Tricksters are pleasant people, until they trick you.  Add impishness to his other traits and you begin to have a character that seems other than human, such that he shouldn't be judged by human criteria.  He becomes vampiric rather than an ordinary killer.

 

Hannibal always seems proud when Will takes a dark initiative.  I think Hannibal would like to set Will up somewhere where he could find a level of peace.  They wouldn't need to see each other everyday, but would want some contact.  If Will is close to nature he can be himself, and if Hannibal does his darker deeds far afield, Will need only eat the proceeds.  That's participation, and it's something Will may be prepared to stomach, at least for a while.

[Captanne]

He is the seductive personification of pure evil.  And he loves it.  (In my interpretation.)

 

What separates Hannibal from the traditional seductive vampire is that he's real.  He's mortal.

 

He's the rich guy next door.

 

There is no imagination involved here, no myth, no "Nosferatu".

 

Hannibal is a serial killing monster just like the rest of the mass murdering fuckheads*.

 

He just won't admit it.  And he's well funded.

 

 

*I quote Eddie Izzard and his description of PolPot.

 

ETA:  I totally understand the seductive nature of the vampire and the myth.  But Hannibal is not that.  He is a mortal man with severe mental problems.  If he cuts your throat, you don't go off with him into eternity in your teeny-bot dreams of heavy kohl makeup, Stevie Nicks outfits, and an immortal rock star after-party.  You die.  And probably end up as a canapé at a party he holds for people who never knew or gave a shit who the fuck you were. 

Edited September 3, 2015 by Captanne

[Crossbow]

I think Hannibal is most like Loki, causing trouble just for giggles, with no regard for the consequences.

[Captanne]

Yeah, but Loki doesn't spend his time reveling in the possession of acolytes.  (He loved the adoration of Avid Fan.  He is a narcissist.  That's his thing.)

 

I think, if hard pressed, Hannibal would consider himself a Miltonian Lucifer -- if he understood at all that he might be sympathetic.  I'm not sure he sees himself as pitiable.  I think he's too arrogant for that.  (Ref:  Brian Cox's dialogue about how Will believes, since he was able to catch Hannibal, he thinks he's smarter than Hannibal. Will, interestingly enough, disagrees.  He says that Hannibal has a handicap -- he's insane.)

Edited September 3, 2015 by Captanne

[jeansheridan]

Yeah, Will Norton's version says that too Captanne and it's a burn.  He says it matter-of-fact, even though he knows it is an insult and Hannibal reacts to it like an insult  Obviously Fuller's Graham couldn't say that with a straight face given his own obvious issues.  Book Graham had had a breakdown of sorts, but he seemed stoic about it.   He needed time, left the FBI behind, and that's behind him more or less.  A much more 1980s approach really.  Book Graham feels a lot more depressed to me. A cloud is always over his head.  Norton is by far and away the healthiest version of Graham.  Possibly the nerdiest too.  He's clearly smart and he's anxious to solve the case.  Can't comment on Peterson's because my loathing of him won't allow me to watch the movie again.  Totally irrational, I know.  I blame the movie Cousins and some other horrible 1980s LA flick with him in it.  Live and Die in LA? 

[Captanne]

I actually loved To Live and Die in LA.  LOLOL  I was a fan of Wang Chung, too.  

 

It's okay -- I get it.  I can't stand Tom Hanks.  So, there's that.  

Edited September 3, 2015 by Captanne

[jeansheridan]

Fortunately it is usually easy to avoid Tom Hanks (although I don't mind him). 

 

Okay, thinking about one more moment from the finale.  It's the "mic drop" moment (a phrase that seemed weird coming out of Hannibal's mouth ...too pop-culture).

 

So, if Will was playing Hannibal way back at Wolf Trap by rejecting him, does that mean Hannibal was actually "captured" by Will?  Does it count if Will merely manipulated Hannibal into surrendering?   It makes more psychological sense to me if Will did attempt to do that and then was able to move to Molly.  He had done his duty and now he needed to put that all behind him.  What's more, he had done his duty without killing Hannibal.  It really was like he woke up from a fog in his own bed and was Will from the pilot again.  That's the kind of energy that scene had in retrospect.  And it might be my favorite scene ever on this show of many great scenes.  That and their first breakfast together and Hannibal eyeing Will scarfing down human sausage with no finesse.

 

Also, stupid of me, but I just noticed the name "Wolf Trap" and it's rather obvious symbolism, although Hannibal doesn't seem like a wolf too me.  But I guess a wolf trap can catch more than a wolf.  Can't believe I never really thought of the name of his home before. 

Edited September 3, 2015 by jeansheridan

[Captanne]

I've been going to Wolf Trap since I was a child.  The thought of that stupid sloop trip across the Atlantic was just so ridiculous.  

 

ANYway, I never really did understand the "mic drop" comment.  

 

ETA:  Oh.  http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=mic+drop Whatever.

Edited September 3, 2015 by Captanne

[Crossbow]

I am not clear whether or not Will was intentionally playing Hannibal when he rejected him. I suspect that Will wasn't clear on it either. He never seems to have a strong grasp of his own motivations.

[luna1122]

 

Edited September 3, 2015 by luna1122

[luna1122]

ugh. having posting/iPhone issues. sorry for empty post above. anyway:

 

 

 

Hannibal is a romantic figure because he’s fictional. If he were a real live breathing human cannibal, no matter how telegenically cheekboned, only the kinds of crazy girls who fall for convicted death row inmates would romanticize him. But he’s not. He’s literary and cinematic, a construct of imagination and poetry and death and magical realism. He’s Heathcliff, he’s Rhett butler. I romanticize him for all the reasons Mr Glass mentioned above: he’s literate, beautiful, deferential, poetic, and played by the maddeningly seductive MM.  It’s the same reason I romanticize my other favorite tv fictional anti hero: justified’s boyd crowder. While one is a kentucky redneck and the other a European aesthete, they are both hyper articulate,  brilliant, sartorially intriguing and ridiculously charismatic.  And both are criminals and murderers. Despite boyd’s being a killer, and despite being far more interested in his relationship with his rival/soulmate raylan (Walton goggins and timothy olyphant flirted with one another  fully as much as hugh and mads ever did, with just as much sparkly chemistry) ,  I wanted him to have the happy ending he envisioned with his truelove, ava. He didn’t get it. What he got was inevitable and in many ways tragic, tho he didn’t wind up off a cliff.

 

I don’t know that I wanted a happy ending for Hannibal…while boyd’s  thugdom was largely situational, and he showed actual repentance from time time, Hannibal is an embodiment of true, random evil. He’s terrifying. But I was so happy for him in those brief moments when he held will in his arms. And I was so happy for will, nestled safely in hannibal’s bloody, strong, cashmered embrace. It might have been the truest happiness he ever got to feel. And then…he made the ultimate sacrifice and plunged them both off the cliff.

 

I want will to be happy, so I was happy he got that, before he threw them both over. And as much as I would love more seasons and mourn this show like a death, I don’t want to see will as a full-on killer, let alone a gourmet cannibal. And while boyd and ava’s plan for their future was to NOT embrace crime anymore, that wouldn’t be an option for these two. Hannibal was never going to promise to not be who he was, and would in fact only encourage will to become his accomplice, his equal: a cold blooded killer. While they might have found the truest love with one another either had ever known, there was never going to be any happiness there. So that’s why this ending was so…perfect, for me.  Much as I would love to see more, the alternatives—life on the run, anguish, prison, killing sprees---are far, far more horrible to contemplate than winding up plunging to their deaths on the  rocks below while entwined together.

 

or, if i'm not trying to be pretentious and prosaic, really we romanticize Hannibal and will cuz they're insanely hot.

 

this show. it's been five days and i'm still in a hazy, dreamy, sad, daze ever since. I can't shake it. i'm so so sad it's over.

[DeadlyEuphoric]

I don't find Hannibal to be pure evil as I don't think pure evil has the capacity to care and love nor does it feel regret, and Hannibal does. Even if minimal and reserved to a very select number of people that you can count in one hand... I also think pure evil wouldn't have feelings of loneliness and a need for company. Hannibal does. He needs a friend, a companion. He is not like the dragon whose number one goal seemed to become this higher being that made sure people felt awe... I think that is why the dragon wanted to destroy the one human connection Dolarhyde made , and even with Dolarhyde "ın control" there was no room for Reba in his life as "Dragon",  Though Hannial sure loves being smarter and superior to everyone, his main goal in the series has been Will's companionship because he needs someone to connect to, someone who'll understand him, someone who will feel the same way he does and Will is the first person who made him feel this way and realize this need. Hannibal doesn't want to destroy the human connection he made, he cherishes it.

 

Didn't read Hannibal Rising but watched the movie, and there was no doubt that Hannibal genuinely loved Mischa and later his aunt, Lady Murasaki. During the series they didn't get into the relationship Hannibal had with his sister much, but from what we have shown I think it was clear that he absolutely loved her, her death did hurt him, and he missses her and regrets he couldn't prevent it. We have mentions of Lady Murasaki but not enough to make any conclusions on his relationship wth her in this version but there is Chiyoh and he may have played his manipulative game with her too, but he does seem to have affection and care for her, and it is probably why she is so loyal to him despite everything. Hannibal may be a monster to everyone else, but the few people he loves, get to enjoy the best parts of him, and so end up caring for him deeply.

 

I was actually surprised to see the Abigail/Hannibal flashbacks this season as I always assumed his interest and care for her were there mostly for Will's sake, as a means to bond with Will, but no. the scenes this season showed that Hannibal had a personal intrest in Abigail. He did care for her and tried to do right by her in his own way. Unlucky for her, his obsession with Will just trumps anything and everything....

 

And then there is Will. Will, who seems to have become everything for Hannibal. He will give up his freedom for him He will even plunge to his death, no resistance, if it means having one pure moment of togetherness with him...

 

As for regret. I think that is what all that talk of teacups and time reversing is all about. You want time to reverse, for the teacup you shattered to get back together only if you have regrets and there are things you want to change in the past, to make right, to make whole again.  That is why, after Italy and the Muskrat farm, when Hannibal asked Will if they were going to talk about teacups shattered and time reversing, I felt that was as close to an apology Hannibal was ever going to get for things he did to Will.. And Will saying "teacup is shattered and it will never get back together" was him saying "never going to forgive you. We are done."  Hannibal even tells him that he is the "victorious" one, which is rather humble of Hannibal given his ego, and still Will wouldn't budge.

 

Fortunately it is usually easy to avoid Tom Hanks (although I don't mind him). 

 

Okay, thinking about one more moment from the finale.  It's the "mic drop" moment (a phrase that seemed weird coming out of Hannibal's mouth ...too pop-culture).

 

So, if Will was playing Hannibal way back at Wolf Trap by rejecting him, does that mean Hannibal was actually "captured" by Will?  Does it count if Will merely manipulated Hannibal into surrendering?   It makes more psychological sense to me if Will did attempt to do that and then was able to move to Molly.  He had done his duty and now he needed to put that all behind him.  What's more, he had done his duty without killing Hannibal.  It really was like he woke up from a fog in his own bed and was Will from the pilot again.  That's the kind of energy that scene had in retrospect.  And it might be my favorite scene ever on this show of many great scenes.  That and their first breakfast together and Hannibal eyeing Will scarfing down human sausage with no finesse.

 

Also, stupid of me, but I just noticed the name "Wolf Trap" and it's rather obvious symbolism, although Hannibal doesn't seem like a wolf too me.  But I guess a wolf trap can catch more than a wolf.  Can't believe I never really thought of the name of his home before. 

 

During the "mic drop" scene I thought Will (who now had i "confrimed" by Bedelia that Hannibal is in love with him) was just saying that to rile Hannibal up, to have the final word, and it wasn't necessarily true. The "break up" scene in episode 7 came off as too genuine for it to be manipulative, and he did seem rather surprised and pissed off that Hannibal didn't leave. But I am also OK with it if he was manipulating Hannibal at that moment and had him fooled again, because that gives him the upper hand, and is such a great victory over Hannibal. The show has us and Will constantly guessing what his true intentions are, and I guess this is one of those moments. And to be honest, I keep changing my mind on the subject to. I first wrote "I prefer it if he manipulated Hannibal in that scene" and then I just rewatched the scene and I was like "nope, I prefer it as a genuine break-up scene". Guess that says something about the brilliance of this show.

 

 

 

 

Hannibal is a romantic figure because he’s fictional. If he were a real live breathing human cannibal, no matter how telegenically cheekboned, only the kinds of crazy girls who fall for convicted death row inmates would romanticize him. But he’s not. He’s literary and cinematic, a construct of imagination and poetry and death and magical realism. He’s Heathcliff, he’s Rhett butler. I romanticize him for all the reasons Mr Glass mentioned above: he’s literate, beautiful, deferential, poetic, and played by the maddeningly seductive MM.

 

There was an interview with Bryan Fuller (I think) where he says something similar to this. Hannibal is a serial killer, yes, but he is not a "real world" serial killer....

 

And after I wrote that sentence I actually went and found the interview so will just write it down (and I have forgotten him mentioning Hannibal has regrets, which I just wrote about too, so was nice to see the interview again lol)

 

" Hannibal Lecter recognizes in Will Graham for the first time in anyone he ever has encountered in his life the opportunity for a friednship, a real friendship. Because he sees something in Will Graham that he also sees in himself. They are both unique in their crazy. Hannibal Lecter is not your regular psychopath because he experiences empathy. He is not a sociopath, because he has regrets. So there are things that make him a work of fiction. Most killers and serial killers are not anywhere in the league of Hannibal Lecter. They are not the sophisticates, they are actually brutes. It is about control and male penetrative issues. And with Hannibal Lecter, he doesn't see his victims the way a serial killer would traditionally see his victims. He sees his victims as 'if you are a pig of a human being, you deserve to be somebody's bacon'. It is a very simple motto of eat the rude which I think gives us a little bit of levity, a little bit of comedy on the show, to kind of,  relief from what is a very dark world."

Edited September 4, 2015 by DeadlyEuphoric

[Captanne]

What is a "traditional" way a serial killer sees his or her victims and who defines it?  I find Hannibal Lecter to be the personification of Evil and anything but romantic or sympathetic.

 

He abused the shit out of Will and I never liked that Will kept returning to him.  I felt sorry for Will that he was so tortured.  I was happy for him that he was the agent of his fate and found his own balance by taking himself and his dark side over that cliff.

 

There is more than one way I take issue with Fuller's interpretation and this is one more.

[MisterGlass]

 

ETA:  I totally understand the seductive nature of the vampire and the myth.  But Hannibal is not that.  He is a mortal man with severe mental problems.  If he cuts your throat, you don't go off with him into eternity in your teeny-bot dreams of heavy kohl makeup, Stevie Nicks outfits, and an immortal rock star after-party.  You die.

Yes, but for some people, like Franklin, it's enough to be near 'greatness,' and the desire for that eclipses little things like self-preservation.  Will was no devotee but he was obsessed with understanding him, with catching him, with stopping him.  I think as the first part of the season ended he came to grips with the idea that he could not personally solve the problem of Hannibal.  I do think Will's speech to Hannibal about wanting him gone with no knowledge of where he is was sincere.  I can believe that he told Hannibal his true feelings in order to get Hannibal to do something against his best interests, however.

 

 

I was actually surprised to see the Abigail/Hannibal flashbacks this season as I always assumed his interest and care for her were there mostly for Will's sake, as a means to bond with Will, but no.

I think Hannibal was interested in Abigail as he was interested in his other murderous patients.  He was interested in helping her embrace her destructive abilities while hiding her from retribution.  However, she remained a pawn, and did not rise to the stature that Will had.

[jeansheridan]

 

The show has us and Will constantly guessing what his true intentions are, and I guess this is one of those moments. And to be honest, I keep changing my mind on the subject to. I first wrote "I prefer it if he manipulated Hannibal in that scene" and then I just rewatched the scene and I was like "nope, I prefer it as a genuine break-up scene". Guess that says something about the brilliance of this show.

I think it can be a little bit of both really.  Yeah, he really WAS breaking up with Hannibal in that moment but, as a bonus, he thought Hannibal might turn himself in to be difficult, why not try?  What Will did in that moment was a huge risk.  Hannibal could have just gutted him and walked away.  It was truly an act of courage (in bed!).  It just never occurred to me that Will was manipulating Hannibal.  But I also don't see Will revising history to make himself look better. 

 

I have been wondering why he asked Bedelia if Hannibal was "in love" with him other than being petty and poking at Bedelia.  Was he just curious at Bedelia's answer?  Why did he have to know explicitly?  What advantage did he gain by knowing?  Or was it just satisfying hearing it spoken?  Or was he surprised Hannibal could feel love?  He didn't seem all that surprised. 

[bannana]

I don't find Hannibal to be pure evil as I don't think pure evil has the capacity to care and love nor does it feel regret, and Hannibal does. Even if minimal and reserved to a very select number of people that you can count in one hand... I also think pure evil wouldn't have feelings of loneliness and a need for company. Hannibal does. He needs a friend, a companion. He is not like the dragon whose number one goal seemed to become this higher being that made sure people felt awe... I think that is why the dragon wanted to destroy the one human connection Dolarhyde made , and even with Dolarhyde "ın control" there was no room for Reba in his life as "Dragon",  Though Hannial sure loves being smarter and superior to everyone, his main goal in the series has been Will's companionship because he needs someone to connect to, someone who'll understand him, someone who will feel the same way he does and Will is the first person who made him feel this way and realize this need. Hannibal doesn't want to destroy the human connection he made, he cherishes it.

 

Didn't read Hannibal Rising but watched the movie, and there was no doubt that Hannibal genuinely loved Mischa and later his aunt, Lady Murasaki. During the series they didn't get into the relationship Hannibal had with his sister much, but from what we have shown I think it was clear that he absolutely loved her, her death did hurt him, and he missses her and regrets he couldn't prevent it. We have mentions of Lady Murasaki but not enough to make any conclusions on his relationship wth her in this version but there is Chiyoh and he may have played his manipulative game with her too, but he does seem to have affection and care for her, and it is probably why she is so loyal to him despite everything. Hannibal may be a monster to everyone else, but the few people he loves, get to enjoy the best parts of him, and so end up caring for him deeply.

 

I was actually surprised to see the Abigail/Hannibal flashbacks this season as I always assumed his interest and care for her were there mostly for Will's sake, as a means to bond with Will, but no. the scenes this season showed that Hannibal had a personal intrest in Abigail. He did care for her and tried to do right by her in his own way. Unlucky for her, his obsession with Will just trumps anything and everything....

 

And then there is Will. Will, who seems to have become everything for Hannibal. He will give up his freedom for him He will even plunge to his death, no resistance, if it means having one pure moment of togetherness with him...

 

As for regret. I think that is what all that talk of teacups and time reversing is all about. You want time to reverse, for the teacup you shattered to get back together only if you have regrets and there are things you want to change in the past, to make right, to make whole again.  That is why, after Italy and the Muskrat farm, when Hannibal asked Will if they were going to talk about teacups shattered and time reversing, I felt that was as close to an apology Hannibal was ever going to get for things he did to Will.. And Will saying "teacup is shattered and it will never get back together" was him saying "never going to forgive you. We are done."  Hannibal even tells him that he is the "victorious" one, which is rather humble of Hannibal given his ego, and still Will wouldn't budge.

 

 

During the "mic drop" scene I thought Will (who now had i "confrimed" by Bedelia that Hannibal is in love with him) was just saying that to rile Hannibal up, to have the final word, and it wasn't necessarily true. The "break up" scene in episode 7 came off as too genuine for it to be manipulative, and he did seem rather surprised and pissed off that Hannibal didn't leave. But I am also OK with it if he was manipulating Hannibal at that moment and had him fooled again, because that gives him the upper hand, and is such a great victory over Hannibal. The show has us and Will constantly guessing what his true intentions are, and I guess this is one of those moments. And to be honest, I keep changing my mind on the subject to. I first wrote "I prefer it if he manipulated Hannibal in that scene" and then I just rewatched the scene and I was like "nope, I prefer it as a genuine break-up scene". Guess that says something about the brilliance of this show.

 

 

 

 

 

There was an interview with Bryan Fuller (I think) where he says something similar to this. Hannibal is a serial killer, yes, but he is not a "real world" serial killer....

 

And after I wrote that sentence I actually went and found the interview so will just write it down (and I have forgotten him mentioning Hannibal has regrets, which I just wrote about too, so was nice to see the interview again lol)

 

" Hannibal Lecter recognizes in Will Graham for the first time in anyone he ever has encountered in his life the opportunity for a friednship, a real friendship. Because he sees something in Will Graham that he also sees in himself. They are both unique in their crazy. Hannibal Lecter is not your regular psychopath because he experiences empathy. He is not a sociopath, because he has regrets. So there are things that make him a work of fiction. Most killers and serial killers are not anywhere in the league of Hannibal Lecter. They are not the sophisticates, they are actually brutes. It is about control and male penetrative issues. And with Hannibal Lecter, he doesn't see his victims the way a serial killer would traditionally see his victims. He sees his victims as 'if you are a pig of a human being, you deserve to be somebody's bacon'. It is a very simple motto of eat the rude which I think gives us a little bit of levity, a little bit of comedy on the show, to kind of,  relief from what is a very dark world."

This is utter bullshit.  Bryan Fuller needs to study psychopathy.  And read The Psychopath Test by Jon Ronson.

 

This series skates in all different directions, but Hannibal, this Hannibal also, has no empathy.  Nor love.  I truly hated the final season of this show.  I am so glad it is over.  So disturbing.  So stupid.  I was invested but this last season was painful and disturbing to watch.

Edited September 4, 2015 by bannana

[DeadlyEuphoric]

I think it can be a little bit of both really.  Yeah, he really WAS breaking up with Hannibal in that moment but, as a bonus, he thought Hannibal might turn himself in to be difficult, why not try?  What Will did in that moment was a huge risk.  Hannibal could have just gutted him and walked away.  It was truly an act of courage (in bed!).  It just never occurred to me that Will was manipulating Hannibal.  But I also don't see Will revising history to make himself look better. 

 

I have been wondering why he asked Bedelia if Hannibal was "in love" with him other than being petty and poking at Bedelia.  Was he just curious at Bedelia's answer?  Why did he have to know explicitly?  What advantage did he gain by knowing?  Or was it just satisfying hearing it spoken?  Or was he surprised Hannibal could feel love?  He didn't seem all that surprised. 

 

 

I don't think he was being petty, or had an ulterior motive, an advantage to gain; he seemed more like confirming then anything. There are things about himself or about Hannibal that Will knows deep-inside, but only admits/realizes and accepts when someone else tells it aloud or pushes him into accepting (like him setting up Chilton). Between Freddie and Bedelia flat-out calling him Hannibal's spouse etc. and insuniating their relationship was way too intimate, I think he was forced to really question it and then admit it, and this was his way of doing so... Or, he had been second-guessing himself about this for a while, not quite sure what Hannibal's interest in him really was about (hard to be objective and rational when it is a matter this personal) so he needed to double-check to make sure it wasn't just him adding more meaning to some things Hannibal does or say?

 

Oh, and given how Hannibal reacted the last time Will rejected him, and how he had just a day ago tried to open up his head and eat his brains, Will breaking up with him while sitting all worn-out in his bed, and starting that speech with "I will miss my dogs, I will not miss you" -no less!- definitely took a lot of guts.

 

I think Hannibal was interested in Abigail as he was interested in his other murderous patients.  He was interested in helping her embrace her destructive abilities while hiding her from retribution.  However, she remained a pawn, and did not rise to the stature that Will had.

 

I agree the she didn't rise to Will's stature and he was defnitely manipulative with her and did his "murder is OK" thing, but I would say she also rates above the likes of Randall Tier and there was a more personal connection (maybe because she reminded him of Mishca?). I don't think Hannibal's patients who he influences to murder are allowed to know he himself is a serial killer, he always protects himself. Abigail knew he was the one who made the calll to warn Hobbs. she knew he was a serial killer. And she wasn't always obedient and could do stuff that could lead to Hannibal being exposed too (like digging up the body they buried together, an action that made Will realize the truth about Abigail, and forced Hannibal to admit to Will that he helped Abigail out in hiding the body).  I think any other patient causing this much trouble and posing some danger would have been killed (and especially once everyone assumed Abigail was murdered by Will, killing her for real would have been very easy for Hannbal. Instead, she was supposed to be part of the "family" he envisioned having with Will (even back in Oeuf, where Alana-Hannibal - Abigail had the family dinner, in the script Hannibal tells Alana that the third setting was for Will, but they couldn't reach him... I guess they cut that part out to not overdo it with the whole "murder family" thing that early..) and given how Hannibal does not like sharing Will with anyone that makes me think she had some special place too.,

Edited September 4, 2015 by DeadlyEuphoric

[Snookums]

Yes, but for some people, like Franklin, it's enough to be near 'greatness,' and the desire for that eclipses little things like self-preservation.  Will was no devotee but he was obsessed with understanding him, with catching him, with stopping him.

 

 

I agree the she [Abigail] didn't rise to Will's stature and he was defnitely manipulative with her and did his "murder is OK" thing, but I would say she also rates above the likes of Randall Tier and there was a more personal connection (maybe because she reminded him of Mishca?)

 

 

 

These are very interesting observations, because they highlight very exactly why Hannibal is unique in his pathology. Franklin's buddy Tobais and Abigail were already too like Hannibal--that is, closer to 'understanding' him--than Will was. And he ended up having no use for either.

 

Franklin was a channel used by Tobias, who wanted a hunting buddy, someone to talk openly with about how great killing and rendering people into taunting bits and pieces is. He presumed a familiarity and equality that offended Hannibal deeply. Don't think you know me, asshole, or that I want to know you. Poor Franklin, he wanted to touch greatness, but never stopped to think about what greatness actually was. Great is different than good. 

 

Abigail came from a crucible that rendered her both a perfect victim and totally devoid of innocence. She was a perfect fusion of Blake's two types of song, thus attracting both Hannibal and Will. But she was just a little too...much, both ways. For Will her complicity with her father and attraction to Hannibal broke his heart; for Hannibal, her desire to live and acquiescence to his schemes, her eagerness to see him as a father, made her too much and too little a mirror, which is a prerequisite for Hannibal if he is going to love you. She ended up not being the right kind of useful, and down she went. 

 

Will was unique for Hannibal because he did not presume and did not project. God, how Hannibal must have adored him and his reflecting surface, every facet revealing something new. 

Edited September 4, 2015 by Snookums

[Captanne]

jeanshericdan

 

I have been wondering why he asked Bedelia if Hannibal was "in love" with him other than being petty and poking at Bedelia.

 

I really have a feeling that was simply Fuller's pandering to the fanfic community.  

 

I think the folks who believe that Hannibal represents the Sexy Vampire version of Evil (and in Fuller's the idea is clearly there) are missing the whole genre Hannibal is created in.  Yes, he is a fictional character and so is Dracula -- but one is in gothic fantasy and is immortal while the other, Hannibal, is written in a psychological thriller.  There are no flying bats who turn into people and there is no immortality.  This is a completely different genre and a very, very mortal man who finds whimsy in torture and murder.  

 

ETA:  Hannibal, to me, is meant to represent seductive evil in life.  Will spends his storyline fighting Hannibal and what he represents.  That Will succumbs to Hannibal's seduction (and I'm not sure he ever really does -- that's his ultimate heroism) is because exactly what makes him so brilliant at understanding the serial killer-mind is what makes him more vulnerable than you or I.  As he said to Hannibal, "You were at a disadvantage.  You were insane."  Will is not insane -- but he is at a disadvantage because of his unique level of empathy.

 

I don't believe Harris meant the reader to identify or "fall in love" with Hannibal or ever, in any way, admire him.  

 

He is Il Mostro.  

 

We, as human beings, may flirt with evil but we ultimately pull away.  Or society takes us out of its midst.  

Edited September 4, 2015 by Captanne

[luna1122]

I'm sure Harris DIDN'T ever want or expect us to fall for Hannibal. but Harris' Hannibal and Bryan Fuller's Hannibal are, at this point, two entirely different constructs. You either like Fuller's iteration or you don't but I'm not sure they can even be compared anymore.

 

I don't romanticize abusers and killers and thugs and monsters in real life, but often, in art, I do. And when they come in the form of Mads Mikkelson, it's really easy to. I'm shallow. Had this version of Hannibal looked like Brian Cox or Anthony Hopkins or someone not sensual or physically compelling in some way, I'm pretty sure there would be no 'Hannigram' devotees, at least not as there are now.

 

As it is, MM and HD created such a darkly romantic twosome that I can't get them or that final plunge outa my head. I'm haunted by them. I'm about two steps away from  seeking out slashy fanfic. Somebody needs to talk me off the ledge. It's sick.

 

 

[DeadlyEuphoric]

jeanshericdan

 

I think the folks who believe that Hannibal represents the Sexy Vampire version of Evil (and in Fuller's the idea is clearly there) are missing the whole genre Hannibal is created in. 

 

 

I don't think the genre a work is created in determines the intentions of a writer regarding how a character is to be perceived. Genre is more like a setting of a story,  a guideline of sorts, and one can still be creative with their story and characters. It is possible to have Dracula as a true monster that you want to see hunted down, and it is also possible for someone else to write him as an emo protoganist who just needs some love in his life. And just because Hannibal doesn't turn into a bat, doesn't make him any less fictional and a work of imagination than Dracula (I would even say there are times he seems superpowered himself, the way it seems there is nothing he is not good at and he is able to find time for all his activities -how does he do it all?!). The setting of Hannibal the series may appear to be the real world, but it is not the real world at the end of the day. I think this is why the actors and Fuller remind us of that a few times, and included Abigail as a ghost (noticed by the priest) at the beginning of this season and had a fairytale like quality to first half of the season, they were driving that point in.

 

I can't claim to know what Harris intended with his characters, as I didn't really read the books. But given Clarice ends up becoming Hannibal's murder wife in the books and they go on their merry way killing people and living the high life, seems to me he gave the victory and the happy ending to Hannibal, and was the first one who came up with the idea Hannibal would decide to make a companion out of the clever cop coming after him, and be able to charm that cop. Fuller seems to have expanded on that idea, and focusing on that relatiionship and love story for his series, only, instead of Clarice he is using Will. He may have romanticized that story in  way Harris didn't in his books, I don't know, I don't think Fuller ever claimed to have an intention to stay true to the book, this is his own design, with Harris' books as a starting point, an inspiration. In any case, when I make analysis of Hannibal and what I believe to be his intentions and feelings in this show, I am talking about the show's/Fuller' s Hannibal and not Harris' Hannibal.

 

As it is, MM and HD created such a darkly romantic twosome that I can't get them or that final plunge outa my head. I'm haunted by them. I'm about two steps away from  seeking out slashy fanfic. Somebody needs to talk me off the ledge. It's sick.

 

 

Same with me...  Oh, don't get me wrong, I love slash fic, used to read them fanfc (inclusing slash) some 10 years ago for 2 other fandoms and you could get such great little stories, some better than how the series "officially" ended up being. But they are addictive and very time consuming and Hannibal is taking a lot of my time as it is anyway, I don't want to start reading Hannbal fanfic and get even more lost. But it is becoming rather hard to resist. And if we are not getting a continution of the show, fanfic might be the way to go for some Hannibal-fix...

Edited September 4, 2015 by DeadlyEuphoric

[Captanne]

deadlyeuphoric

 

I don't think the genre a work is created in determines the intentions of a writer regarding how a character is to be perceived. Genre is more like a setting of a story,  a guideline of sorts, and one can still be creative with their story and characters.

 

Oh - -- I like this viewpoint because it's one that I hadn't considered.  I'm not sure I agree with it and I'm not a novelist, so I can't speak from personal experience -- but I think that the genre a novelist chooses to use is part of the work of the novelist.  It's like an architect choosing to create a building within a certain design school or certain objects in an interior design (for example, you don't place a telephone on a hall table in a scene set in the 17th Century.  One doesn't place Miss Marple in a novel about the Ming Dynasty--if you do, then you are no longer writing a straightforward novel and are now in science fiction.  The genre defines the experience.)  

 

I think, for the most part, genre is a very carefully considered part of the whole.  And is a critical part of the job of the novelist.  

 

To say that genre is not something the novelist considers and then adheres to removes much of the credit the writer can take for his or her creation. 

 

I do know that I don't like lazy novels that use one genre but tell a tale from another -- for example, when science fiction writers get lazy and simply write "cowboys and indians" as "bugs and humans".  (Confusing scifi with western genres.)

 

Hmm.  I'll have to devote more thought to this.

Edited September 4, 2015 by Captanne

[Crossbow]

I'm sure Harris DIDN'T ever want or expect us to fall for Hannibal. but Harris' Hannibal and Bryan Fuller's Hannibal are, at this point, two entirely different constructs. You either like Fuller's iteration or you don't but I'm not sure they can even be compared anymore.

 

He had to know there were people who love fictional serial killers, and people who romanticize real life ones, but he couldn't have expected Hannibal Lecter to be the runaway hit he was. I think it's mostly Anthony Hopkins' fault. Cox didn't bring the charm like Hopkins did. But yeah, Fuller's "fallen angel" version is very different.

[jeansheridan]

DeadlyEuphoric, just go for it.  There's some good writing going on out there.  ;^).  And not just wish-fullfilment writing either.  Good dialogue, characterizations, explorations.  It's fun. 

 

 

but he couldn't have expected Hannibal Lecter to be the runaway hit he was. I think it's mostly Anthony Hopkins' fault. Cox didn't bring the charm like Hopkins did. But yeah, Fuller's "fallen angel" version is very different.

I was in college when SOTL came out and I remember being in lit classes and having professors frustrated at how much the American public seemed to love Hannibal Lecter.  Norman Bates was never beloved.  Or Travis from Taxi Driver (although he's more insane than a serial killer).  Of course there's The Godfather.  Brando was a horrible person, but feared and admired.  Perhaps people just like a strong, charismatic figure who has no angst about himself at all.  And Hopkins had such fun playing a bad guy.  He brings the glee and joy that Fuller also has for the material.

 

Obviously on Fuller's show, Mads is just flat out appealing in his slightly off-centered way.  I remember seeing the early promotional shots and thinking he was an odd looking man and that Hugh Dancy had only done some crap rom-coms.  But to see Mads in motion and to watch him build such a consistent character so we can go from episode 1 to episode 39 and understand how he got there is quite an achievement of an actor who cares. 

 

Captanne, I don't think Fuller was pandering to fanfic writers.  I think he was sincere in how he approached these characters.  It has been a seduction all along.  But Hannibal fell for his mark and paid for his inconvenient compassion.  I mean the whole show could be answering the question, "What if the devil fell in love?"  What would that look like?  How would that play out? 

 

Of course I do prefer to see Hannibal as merely human.  Harris gets a bit mystical in the book Hannibal when he has the pigs part like the red sea for Hannibal.  His magical ability to project alpha energy apparently extends to pigs.  Ultimately Hannibal is just a guy who fell for the wrong guy.  How pedestrian really.  But such fun to watch.

[Crossbow]

I wouldn't say he's pandering to fanfic writers, I'd say he's writing fan fic. Actually Fuller said that himself, that the show was basically fan fic of the books.

[Captanne]

I respectfully remove the word pandering.  LOL

 

There is no doubt a dream-like quality to this series.  I wonder if it got a bit out of hand and transformed a character from demented serial killer to seductive vampire-like Svengali?  

 

It would be like taking Sherlock Holmes and going too far with the character House to the point where the Holmesian roots are recognizable but changed at the core and probably not at all what Doyle intended.

 

However, I have no problem remembering that this Demon on the (eroding) bluff was the same man who, until recently, was gutting and brain-sawing the man in his embrace.

Edited September 4, 2015 by Captanne

[Crossbow]

 I wonder if it got a bit out of hand and transformed a character from demented serial killer to seductive vampire-like Svengali?  

 

Personally, I don't think so - I think that's how Hannibal sees himself, though. The show is trying to balance how Hannibal sees himself and what he's actually done. For me it works.

[chrisvee]

But Hannibal fell for his mark and paid for his inconvenient compassion.  I mean the whole show could be answering the question, "What if the devil fell in love?"  What would that look like?  How would that play out? 

 

Of course I do prefer to see Hannibal as merely human.  Harris gets a bit mystical in the book Hannibal when he has the pigs part like the red sea for Hannibal.  His magical ability to project alpha energy apparently extends to pigs.  Ultimately Hannibal is just a guy who fell for the wrong guy.  How pedestrian really.  But such fun to watch.

I figured that Fuller was pretty intentionally telling the Clarice/Hannibal romance in a more believable way. But I like the what if the devil fell in love framing better. :)

[MisterGlass]

 

would say she also rates above the likes of Randall Tier and there was a more personal connection (maybe because she reminded him of Mishca?).

 

This is a good point, and yes, I think she is reminiscent of Mischa for him.  When she confessed to being the 'lure' for her father he was actually kind to her, long before the faked death.  It's so hard to tell how much of his emotions are real and how much are a show.

 

 

He presumed a familiarity and equality that offended Hannibal deeply.

 

Tobias also behaved recklessly at a time when Hannibal was trying to remain hidden.  That was a transgression.

 

 

There is no doubt a dream-like quality to this series.  I wonder if it got a bit out of hand and transformed a character from demented serial killer to seductive vampire-like Svengali? 

 

It would be like taking Sherlock Holmes and going too far with the character House to the point where the Holmesian roots are recognizable but changed at the core and probably not at all what Doyle intended.

 

I'm not sure it got out of hand as that this was a tenant of the re-imagining.  I think it works.  Every adaptation twists from the original work, either in content or tone.  That doesn't make one more or less valid, though one version may be more palatable to the audience.  Both have their own stories to tell.  This version of Hannibal emphasizes the macabre aspects of murder and the bewitching nature of a character unbound by law or morality.  The first books were crime thrillers.  I would argue that the book Hannibal was starting to tend in the gothic direction, and this series ran with that emphasis.

 

House is an extreme example of the divergence of adaptation from source material, but then it used the Holmesian construct as a jumping off point more than a guide.  For closer adaptations, consider "Sherlock" and "Elementary."  They are two active, radically different approaches to the same set of characters.  "Sherlock" wants to see modern Holmes in London coping with his first real friendship and a nefarious enemy.  Holmes is distant and cleaves close to the line villain that might have been.  His Watson plays normal better than he does, but he has his own harshness.  "Elementary" features an antagonistic, sober drug addict and apiarist that the viewer meets emerging from rehab.  His Watson is a washed out doctor at a similar low point, and together they advance toward a better relationship with the world.  Both of these are adaptations that draw from the source material but have different things to say about and with the characters.

 

"Sherlock" is perhaps closer to what Doyle intended, but he could not foresee the world today or anticipate what would be in it.  When he wrote Sherlock Holmes, cocaine was legal, and Victorian manners still mattered.  Doyle's stories are what he intended, and "Sherlock" is what Mark Gatiss et. al. intend.  Different designs, both worthy products.

 

 

I do know that I don't like lazy novels that use one genre but tell a tale from another -- for example, when science fiction writers get lazy and simply write "cowboys and indians" as "bugs and humans".  (Confusing scifi with western genres.)

 

I admit there are plenty of bad and lazy mixed genre works out there.  That doesn't make it wrong to have a scifi western, like Firefly.  Or film noir replicants.

[Captanne]

Touche!  But that's the beauty of science fiction -- like my example of Miss Marple visiting the Ming Dynasty -- it can mix genres.

[GreyBunny]

I'm sure Harris DIDN'T ever want or expect us to fall for Hannibal. but Harris' Hannibal and Bryan Fuller's Hannibal are, at this point, two entirely different constructs. You either like Fuller's iteration or you don't but I'm not sure they can even be compared anymore.

 

I don't romanticize abusers and killers and thugs and monsters in real life, but often, in art, I do. And when they come in the form of Mads Mikkelson, it's really easy to. I'm shallow. Had this version of Hannibal looked like Brian Cox or Anthony Hopkins or someone not sensual or physically compelling in some way, I'm pretty sure there would be no 'Hannigram' devotees, at least not as there are now.

 

As it is, MM and HD created such a darkly romantic twosome that I can't get them or that final plunge outa my head. I'm haunted by them. I'm about two steps away from  seeking out slashy fanfic. Somebody needs to talk me off the ledge. It's sick.

 

This.  A thousand times THIS.

 

As much as I enjoyed Hopkins and Foster in the film Silence of the Lambs, Hannibal as a character never captured my imagination until Mads and Fuller came along, also Hugh Dancy's version of Will was also a huge part of it.  It's Mads, it's Fuller's writing, and it's Hannibal and Will's relationship which I can't help but root for...now this show haunts me too. 

 

Not only will I not talk you off the ledge, I can send you links to you some really spectacular Hannibal fanfics.  I hadn't read fanfics in years but Fuller's Hannibal pulled me back in.

Edited September 5, 2015 by GreyBunny

[kechara]

I have never read a fanfic. Are they worth reading?

[supposebly]

 

I wouldn't say he's pandering to fanfic writers, I'd say he's writing fan fic. Actually Fuller said that himself, that the show was basically fan fic of the books.

To be fair, every adaptation of a source material is fanfic. Just often of better quality. Although I have read some good writing as well.

 

As to are they worth reading, I used to read Supernatural fanfic, and between the unholiness that is fanfic.net, there were also some real gems around. Not a lot though. I'd say about 5% were actually good.

I don't do fanfic reading anymore, too much crap to wade through IMO and I'm not obsessed enough with this show to start. Still, if you want to stick with the universe, happy looking!

[Bruinsfan]

It's not show fanfic, rather based on the original Harris novels, but there's one Hannibal story by the author whom I consider the most talented fanfic writer in general.

[luna1122]

 

 

Not only will I not talk you off the ledge, I can send you links to you some really spectacular Hannibal fanfics.  I hadn't read fanfics in years but Fuller's Hannibal pulled me back in.

 

 

I have a long standing, probably unfair prejudice against fanfic, even well written fanfic...cuz it seems squicky, weird and obsessive. I managed to go deep into Mulder/Scully, Veronica/Logan and Boyd/Raylan fandoms without resorting to reading it. But I'm not even on the ledge anymore, I've fallen off  the cliff, so...sure, a link or two to really good stuff couldn't hurt, right?*

 

*sounds like an addict

 

Fun fact that nobody will appreciate but me, but I can't tell you how much it delights me: Mads Mikkelson and I share not only the same initials, but the same birthday. I'm quite sure that means something.

[GreyBunny]

That's funny!  I have a cat named Luna and a miniature grey dachshund named Maddie.  Yes, I really did name her after Mads Mikkelsen.  Her birthday is also sometime during the 3rd week of November ("five weeks old on X-mas eve") so Nov. 22nd is close enough and I consider that her birthday.

[Ailianna]

Mister Glass said in the Episode 11 thread, I believe:

Purgatory and Paradise follow, but that's assuming Will makes it out of the Inferno.  The ninth and lowest circle is for traitors.  If Will gives in to Hannibal's attempts to turn him into a copy-cannibal, he will have betrayed himself entirely.  I think he wants Francis to survive and be treated so that he can't e carried any farther into the killer mindset.

 

This is an interesting thought, because the plunge off the cliff can be seen as Will's ultimate treachery. He waits until he has given Hannibal everything Hannibal wants, then he takes it all away, suddenly, quickly.  On the other hand, it can also be seen as Will's ultimate rejection of treachery toward himself, his values, and the world he unwillingly cares so much about.  So, depending upon the balance point of the judging entity--Will is either now condemned to the 9th circle--or he has entirely broken free of his time in the Inferno.  But I like that it is both at once, and I wish I knew which way the judging would go.

 

I think it's Will's ultimate act of heroism, but it's a heroism with a stain, because he really is destroying someone who loves him at the same time. 

[luna1122]

That's funny!  I have a cat named Luna and a miniature grey dachshund named Maddie.  Yes, I really did name her after Mads Mikkelsen.  Her birthday is also sometime during the 3rd week of November ("five weeks old on X-mas eve") so Nov. 22nd is close enough and I consider that her birthday.

ha...I love that. also funny: my best friend's name is bunny.

 

You know, when I read Hannibal, I so hated where the relationship with Clarice and Hannibal went that I threw the book forcibly across the room. I was appalled and grossed out and outraged that Harris did that to Clarice, our heroine. HATED. Loathed. (again, cuz I'm shallow, possibly partly because the mental image of Jodie Foster and Anthony Hopkins--despite their unusual chemistry in SOTL--as lovers is not appealing. I hated her becoming a cannibalistic accomplice, no matter how brainwashed or drugged she might have been. It felt like a betrayal of all that had come before, all that she had been.

 

So I get why non-shippers would be appalled by the romance, for lack of a better term, and I think it's an accurate one, sexual or not, by where Fuller took Will and Hannibal. I get it. But---I also love it. Despite not wanting Will to become inhuman and monstrous, and I don't---in no way would I actually want to watch the story of Will and Hannibal, cannibal murder husbands on the run (who am I kidding? I'd watch it, even if I hated it), I still find such poetic romance to their story. It's not only the beauty of our leading men, tho that's surely at least half of it, probably more. There's just such a ludicrous, epic tragedy to it all. It speaks to me.

[Captanne]

luna1122

Despite not wanting Will to become inhuman and monstrous, and I don't---in no way would I actually want to watch the story of Will and Hannibal, cannibal murder husbands on the run (who am I kidding? I'd watch it, even if I hated it), I still find such poetic romance to their story.

 

I can be on board with this -- absolutely.

 

The difference for me is that I can't get over all the atrocities Hannibal has committed -- especially those he perpetrated on Will and to which Will kept returning.  (By the time Hannibal was removing his skull I had lost sympathy for Will.  It's his own damned fault at that point.)

 

I think it's possible that I'm relatively immune to Hannibal's seductive nature (which genuinely baffles me other than I, too, would like to live in luxury in Florence with no visible means of support and have the entire entourage who must have spent hours dressing Bedelia.)  

 

I am very immune because, while I find Mads Mikkelsen a really expert actor, he does absolutely less than nothing for me sexually.  No chemistry.  No attraction.  He is pretty much a void to me.

[luna1122]

I am very immune because, while I find Mads Mikkelsen a really expert actor, he does absolutely less than nothing for me sexually.  No chemistry.  No attraction.  He is pretty much a void to me.

 

 

 

I kind of get that, even tho he's so preposterously attractive to me that it's...well, preposterous. But I didn't really get  him at first.  I immediately saw he was a compelling actor, but I found his appearance kind of reptilian, alien. But then...what's that line?....'I fell in love the way you fall asleep. slowly at first, then all at once'  (shit, I think I just quoted some YA romance novel. anyway.)....that's how it hit me. A few episodes in, I realized I found him crazy-beautiful, and crazy-seductive.

 

But not finding him that would sure explain not feeling compelled to go read slashy fanfic like I just did for an hour this afternoon. Man, there's a lot of it out there, and some of it is really bad, and some of it is really GOOD. sexy, literate, thoughtful. dammit. Mostly it just made me feel really sad that there's no show tonite. or ever.

 

I just have to suspend reality and disbelief while watching....of course Hannibal is a monster and Will is an abused enabler and it's all creepy and sick and in real life I'd think they were all freaks and have no sympathy for any of them. I can't even tolerate that in a lot of art. But this show, these writers and these actors sold it all to me. Hard.

 

 

 

Captanne

 

You sound like I did about Roy Dupuis, a Quebecer, who played Michael Samuelle in La Femme Nikita (1995).  His looks are not for everyone but I fell for that man -- and knew that the character he played was as dangerous as Mikkelsen's Hannibal (one could make an argument that Michael was also insane.)

 

 

 

holy cats. he's gorgeous.

Edited September 6, 2015 by luna1122

[Captanne]

You sound like I did about Roy Dupuis, a Quebecer, who played Michael Samuelle in La Femme Nikita (1995).  His looks are not for everyone but I fell for that man -- and knew that the character he played was as dangerous as Mikkelsen's Hannibal (one could make an argument that Michael was also insane.)  

 

ETA:  Ain't he just.  You should see him move -- he wasn't a dancer but you wouldn't know it.  He is as lithe as a panther.

Edited September 6, 2015 by Captanne

[jeansheridan]

Dupuis should get on Orphan Black. Great face. Unsure about the mullet! Hee. But Mads has terrible hair so....

Anyways, this has been fun. Captanne, I think you might be a GOT poster so see you next spring. Everyone has been so thoughtful and civil. I love this corner of the internet.

[Brattinella]

I WAS going to post a video of Mads Mikkelsen dancing, but youtube has decided to SCREW ME AGAIN!  What the hell is wrong with FLASH?

[luna1122]

well, that just made me go seek out dancing mads video. sigh. dreamy.