Past Plots Discussion: Whatever Happened To...

[Apprentice79]

Exactly there is a reason why John and Marlena consider Carrie their daughter, they helped raise her.  John was actually her most dedicated, consistent parent during her childhood, and like others have mentioned she helped John raise Sami and Eric those eight years Marlena was missing.  It's not like Carrie was a grown woman when Roman and Marlena got together.  Regardless of how those relationships relate to Sami I have always appreciated that the adults never drew a line in the sand with any of the children.  As much trouble as Sami caused John over the years he never turned his back on her.  And I appreciate that Belle was raised to consider Carrie her sister as well.  Hell even Roman has always had a soft spot for Belle considering her conception.  To me, when your in a real family people don't draw those lines of separation. 

Not to mention, that the reason that Belle exists is because Roman wanted to raise a child fully with Marlena  because they had missed so much with the twins and they decided to forgo birth control. Unfortunately for Roman, John impregnated Marlena on the plane...

Edited April 3, 2016 by Apprentice79

[LeftPhalange]

The problem with Marlena isn't that she treats Carrie like one of her biological daughters, it's that she treats her like she's a saint and does little to hide the fact that she favors her over Sami. Even if I accepted that Marlena likes Carrie more than Sami because Carrie was a good child I'd still have to question why she doesn't show much love to Eric.

[JBC344]

Well to be fair we are comparing two different time periods here.  Sami, Eric, and Carrie haven't been on screen together as a sibling group in over 15 years.  The last time was when Jensen was playing Eric and I don't recall Marlena treating Eric badly then.  Now is a different story.

 

If anything Marlena's parenting issues really come into play in regards to Sami.  Which we could spend all day examining their complex relationship.  To me the question isn't that Marlena treats Carrie as a saint (which I think is always over exaggerated), but more Marlena MAY treat her other THREE children different than she treats Sami.

 

The Sami vs Carrie saga gets examined more because Eric wasn't around a lot and Belle was too young.  So "Sami vs Carrie" is all we have to compare it to, which I don't think is fair.

[QuelleC]

Mar definitely treats Carrie as a saint.  Telling her to cheat on Austin and take Sami's husband Rafe?  WTH.  Not only that but she is only too happy to shake her head and blow off Sami to both Carrie and Eric.  And she had an almost pathological interest in his VOCATION as a priest while ignoring his, as we can see now, bad reasons for being one.  He rates well over Sami in Mar's book.  Meanwhile, Jawn just calls them all keeeed.  Roman loves Sami.  When he's not drunk or whatever his problem is.

[Apprentice79]

Well to be fair we are comparing two different time periods here.  Sami, Eric, and Carrie haven't been on screen together as a sibling group in over 15 years.  The last time was when Jensen was playing Eric and I don't recall Marlena treating Eric badly then.  Now is a different story.

 

If anything Marlena's parenting issues really come into play in regards to Sami.  Which we could spend all day examining their complex relationship.  To me the question isn't that Marlena treats Carrie as a saint (which I think is always over exaggerated), but more Marlena MAY treat her other THREE children different than she treats Sami.

 

The Sami vs Carrie saga gets examined more because Eric wasn't around a lot and Belle was too young.  So "Sami vs Carrie" is all we have to compare it to, which I don't think is fair.

Exactly! Marlena has never treated Carrie like a saint..I will say that Carrie has treated Marlena with understanding in regards to John..Everybody had something nasty to say to her about that, except for Alice and Caroline...Carrie was angry at first and came to understand her reasons for betraying Roman..Carrie also had a tough time adjusting to Roman as her dad..She was still very close to John after all was said and done...Marlena does love Eric. The show has never really highlighted their relationship like the ones that she has with her daughters..

Edited April 3, 2016 by Apprentice79

[Apprentice79]

Mar definitely treats Carrie as a saint.  Telling her to cheat on Austin and take Sami's husband Rafe?  WTH.  Not only that but she is only too happy to shake her head and blow off Sami to both Carrie and Eric.  And she had an almost pathological interest in his VOCATION as a priest while ignoring his, as we can see now, bad reasons for being one.  He rates well over Sami in Mar's book.  Meanwhile, Jawn just calls them all keeeed.  Roman loves Sami.  When he's not drunk or whatever his problem is.

No matter what Carrie has done to Sami, it will never compare to the way Sami has hurt her  and the rest of the family for years...Kayla had every reason to hate her big sister Kim over their father's obvious favoring of Kim. He used to call Kim the best and the brightest..His preference for Kim never wavered. Kayla has never gone after Kim, the way that Sami used to go after Carrie...Kayla would have all reason to hate Kim and resent her for being their father's favorite, but, she always loved and admired her big sister Kim..We cannot say the same thing for Sami in regards to Carrie...

Edited April 3, 2016 by Apprentice79

[QuelleC]

Carrie was nicked but never really hurt.  Because she didn't care about Sami at all. I didn't get the idea Sami was trying to hurt Carrie more than she really wanted Austin.   Maybe Carrie she thought she had the better pedigree?  I don't know but her entitlement was unlikeable.  Thanks for bringing up how Shawn preferred Kimber.  That's true.  That's why I love Kayla.  She made her own way.    Note to self.  Take a private jet away from Salem to Europe and come back with a law/medical degree.

[JBC344]

Carrie was nicked but never really hurt.  Because she didn't care about Sami at all. I didn't get the idea Sami was trying to hurt Carrie more than she really wanted Austin.   Maybe Carrie she thought she had the better pedigree?  I don't know but her entitlement was unlikeable.  Thanks for bringing up how Shawn preferred Kimber.  That's true.  That's why I love Kayla.  She made her own way.    Note to self.  Take a private jet away from Salem to Europe and come back with a law/medical degree.

Interesting, I always saw Sami going after Carrie as misguided "hurt/rage/misunderstanding" over the way she may have been treated by John/Roman/Marlena.  This is why I was always Team Carrie.  It is one thing for them to be in a  feud but that wasn't the case it was ten years of Sami going after Carrie unprovoked. I think Carrie did care about Sami, she tried to forgive Sami many times and then Sami would turn around and do something else to her.  I think Carrie eventually gave up so to speak on trying to have a relationship with Sami and that is why it was easy for her to have something with Rafe. 

[Apprentice79]

Carrie was nicked but never really hurt.  Because she didn't care about Sami at all. I didn't get the idea Sami was trying to hurt Carrie more than she really wanted Austin.   Maybe Carrie she thought she had the better pedigree?  I don't know but her entitlement was unlikeable.  Thanks for bringing up how Shawn preferred Kimber.  That's true.  That's why I love Kayla.  She made her own way.    Note to self.  Take a private jet away from Salem to Europe and come back with a law/medical degree.

Carrie loved Sami, but Sami could never let her petty resentment go and it always interfered in forging a relationship with Carrie. There was no reason in 2006, to blackmail Lexie into telling Carrie that she and Austin could never have healthy children..That was just cruel....She admitted that she only did it because she was jealous of her...It backfired on Sami in the long run because it got EJ's hooks into her....I was happy with Carrie's speech to Sami after she married Austin that she was done trying to be a sister to Sami.. I loved it....You can tell that really hurt Sami, despite her bravado, that she did not care about Carrie...

Edited April 4, 2016 by Apprentice79

[QuelleC]

For me the number one motivation with Sami is that she never felt loved and kept looking for it her whole life.  Whether she was wrong or right about it.

[JBC344]

For me the number one motivation with Sami is that she never felt loved and kept looking for it her whole life.  Whether she was wrong or right about it.

That is Sami to a tee.

[Happytobehere]

Carrie was nicked but never really hurt. Because she didn't care about Sami at all. I didn't get the idea Sami was trying to hurt Carrie more than she really wanted Austin. Maybe Carrie she thought she had the better pedigree? I don't know but her entitlement was unlikeable. Thanks for bringing up how Shawn preferred Kimber. That's true. That's why I love Kayla. She made her own way. Note to self. Take a private jet away from Salem to Europe and come back with a law/medical degree.

Funny, I always questioned whether Sami truly loved Austin or if she just wanted to best Carrie.

As for my girl Kayla, not only were Kimberly and Roman Shawn's favorite, Caroline loved Bo best. The person in the Brady family who always loved Kayla best was Bo. PR and MBE had an awesome sibling relationship and knowing we will never get scenes between them again saddens me.

Speaking of Kayla, MBE will be interviewed on AfterbuzzTV's DishinDays podcast on Wednesday: https://twitter.com/loraynelove/status/716812135947309056

For me the number one motivation with Sami is that she never felt loved and kept looking for it her whole life. Whether she was wrong or right about it.

The funny and I mean the sad kind of funny is that the one person who truly loved her no matter what and always tried to be there for Sami was the person she crapped on the most -John.

Edited April 4, 2016 by Happytobehere

[Apprentice79]

Funny, I always questioned whether Sami truly loved Austin or if she just wanted to best Carrie.

As for my girl Kayla, not only were Kimberly and Roman Shawn's favorite, Caroline loved Bo best. The person i. The Brady family who always loved Kayla best was Bo. PR and MBE had an awesome sibling relationship and knowing we will never get scenes between them again saddens me.

The funny and I mean the sad kind of funny is that the one person who truly loved her no matter what and always tried to be there for Sami was the person she crapped on the most -John.

That is so true about John, in regards to Sami...It is why the rabid Jarlena fans hate Sami so much...I was watching the aftermath of Bo being revealed to be Victor's son and Shawn and Caroline had separated...Bo was feeling lost and out of place in the Brady family; Kayla went out of her way to make him still feel included as a Brady.. It was so touching to see that....I always loved the  4 Brady siblings together..My only complaint with them is the fact that the show failed to weave Max and Frankie in the dynamic with the original four...

Edited April 4, 2016 by Apprentice79

[TigerLynx]

Sami met Austin and had a crush on him before she knew Carrie was dating Austin.  Sami had good relationships with Carrie, John, and Marlena before she saw John/Marlena on the conference room table.  Sami still had a good relationship with Carrie after that.  It was after Carrie convinced Sami to press charges against Alan, and then Carrie was called to testify against Sami that Sami's relationship with Carrie went downhill.  I never understood Sami's obsession with Austin.

 

Sami and Carrie actually buried the hatchet and became close in 2010.  The writers trying to start up the rivalry in 2011 again was dumb.  Originally, when John was first arrested, both Sami and Carrie were defending John to Austin and Rafe.  I think it would have been a more interesting SL if it had been Sami/Carrie vs. Rafe/Austin, and the Brady sisters had discovered EJ and then Stefano were the ones who stole the money.

[Rick Kitchen]

The guy who created the Batman/Suicide Squad character of Suicide Squad said he designed her after a character portrayed by Arleen Sorkin/Calliope:

 

[DisneyBoy]

Harley Quinn.

[Happytobehere]

19 hours ago, Rick Kitchen said:

The guy who created the Batman/Suicide Squad character of Suicide Squad said he designed her after a character portrayed by Arleen Sorkin/Calliope:

 

 

Yes, Harley Quinn, the character Sorkin voiced in Batman the Animated Series and Batman Beyond.

[DisneyBoy]

Aint it sad that Days once had money to blow on a dream sequence that looks more exciting and elaborate than anything the show has done in years?

[teacake]

On 4/3/2016 at 4:57 PM, Apprentice79 said:

No matter what Carrie has done to Sami, it will never compare to the way Sami has hurt her  and the rest of the family for years...Kayla had every reason to hate her big sister Kim over their father's obvious favoring of Kim. He used to call Kim the best and the brightest..His preference for Kim never wavered. Kayla has never gone after Kim, the way that Sami used to go after Carrie...Kayla would have all reason to hate Kim and resent her for being their father's favorite, but, she always loved and admired her big sister Kim..We cannot say the same thing for Sami in regards to Carrie...

They just skimmed the surface of this with the Shayla story... not so much that Kayla went after Shane for revenge on Kim, but once they were together, she resented being asked to put him aside for Kim's sake.  I've always wished they would go more into depth with it because those conflict scenes (with Shawn and "Roman" especially) were amazing.

My problem with Marlena's parenting is that she just never seems very involved as a mother... I'm sure she loves her children, but John always seemed like her priority.  If they would work with that instead of trying to make her seem warm and caring, it would work better for me, especially with her career as a psychiatrist.  That always makes her seem more distant to me.

[DisneyBoy]

Quote

My problem with Marlena's parenting is that she just never seems very involved as a mother... I'm sure she loves her children, but John always seemed like her priority.  If they would work with that instead of trying to make her seem warm and caring, it would work better for me, especially with her career as a psychiatrist.  That always makes her seem more distant to me.

Definitely. I'd hoped with Belle back that Marlena would get some scenes of being sweet and helping one of her kids out...especially since Belle has been such a train wreck these last few months.

The only time I remember Mar seeming nurturing was during Will's coming out...which is probably why that storyline is so fondly remembered. They even hung out and played Scrabble!

At least she's stayed involved with Ari. Every couple of months we get a scene of her with her great granddaughter and that's appreciated.

She and John should just be smoothe sailing at this point and focusing on retirement and the kids.

Edited August 8, 2016 by DisneyBoy

[Apprentice79]

9 hours ago, lska said:

They just skimmed the surface of this with the Shayla story... not so much that Kayla went after Shane for revenge on Kim, but once they were together, she resented being asked to put him aside for Kim's sake.  I've always wished they would go more into depth with it because those conflict scenes (with Shawn and "Roman" especially) were amazing.

My problem with Marlena's parenting is that she just never seems very involved as a mother... I'm sure she loves her children, but John always seemed like her priority.  If they would work with that instead of trying to make her seem warm and caring, it would work better for me, especially with her career as a psychiatrist.  That always makes her seem more distant to me.

The only good thing about the Shayla pairing was the Brady family dynamic and their divide over the Shayla pairing..Papa Shawn was pro Kim/Shane, so he was against the pairing. Bo was in Kayla's corner highlighting their special bond.  Bo accused Shawn of favoritism in regards to Kim and "Roman" as always, was defending his dad, poor Caroline was stuck in the middle, perplexed by the whole thing...What was so fascinating about the whole thing was the sisterly relationship between Kim and Kayla...Kim hid her pain and gave Kayla the green light to be with Shane, while she warred with Shane by romancing Lawrence...Kayla seeing the obvious connection between the two was starting to lash out at Kim..It was weird seeing Kayla be a bitch to Kim.. It was so out of character for all the parties involved....I will never understood why the writers went that route....Kim and Shane started to go down hill, when Patsy Pease refused to play the storyline of Kim having a second stillborn daughter....Patsy was heavily pregnant at the time..It is why Jennifer Liley has said that, if it wasn't for Patsy,Theresa would not exist on the show.. The writers loved to torture Kim and Shane, we never had a moment of happiness between them, it was always one calamity after another...It was sad to see Kayla turned into an interloper in their love story...

I am so happy that they never turned Kim/Kayla into Sami/Carrie, that would have hurt too much...The writers back then gave everybody a point of view, it was not black and white like during the James E, Reilly era, where the villains were developed more over the heroes and the heroes were dumb downed, so that the villains would win over and over again..It is why Sami became more popular than Carrie. Carrie stopped being a character in favor of Evil Sami...It is easier to write a bitch over a heroine...Kim and Kayla were complex and rootable heroines, despite their flaws..I remember a nice scene between Kayla and Bo where they were talking about mourning the loves of their lives, while getting another chance at happiness with Shane and Carly respectively..It served to show us why Kayla was so desperate to be with Shane and start anew.. I hated it, but, I understood her reasoning...She just wanted to be happy again, she missed Steve very much and was alone with a baby to raise....Shane gave her the will to go on...Thankfully the writers realized that the audience hated that pairing and broke them up...

Edited August 8, 2016 by Apprentice79

[teacake]

4 hours ago, Apprentice79 said:

The only good thing about the Shayla pairing was the Brady family dynamic and their divide over the Shayla pairing..Papa Shawn was pro Kim/Shane, so he was against the pairing. Bo was in Kayla's corner highlighting their special bond.  Bo accused Shawn of favoritism in regards to Kim and "Roman" as always, was defending his dad, poor Caroline was stuck in the middle, perplexed by the whole thing...What was so fascinating about the whole thing was the sisterly relationship between Kim and Kayla...Kim hid her pain and gave Kayla the green light to be with Shane, while she warred with Shane by romancing Lawrence...Kayla seeing the obvious connection between the two was starting to lash out at Kim..It was weird seeing Kayla be a bitch to Kim.. It was so out of character for all the parties involved....I will never understood why the writers went that route....Kim and Shane started to go down hill, when Patsy Pease refused to play the storyline of Kim having a second stillborn daughter....Patsy was heavily pregnant at the time..It is why Jennifer Liley has said that, if it wasn't for Patsy,Theresa would not exist on the show.. The writers loved to torture Kim and Shane, we never had a moment of happiness between them, it was always one calamity after another...It was sad to see Kayla turned into an interloper in their love story...

Kim's whole story at the time was really compromised by the casting issues... the coming and going definitely contributed to the way Shane and Kim's story fell apart at the end.  I was never a fan, though.

Lawrence and Kim!  That still make me mad... Pairing Kim with Kayla's husband's murderer was just as much of a betrayal as Kayla dating Shane.  They tried to write it off as Kim's ISA work eventually, but they were really flirting with that pairing for a while.

[Apprentice79]

17 hours ago, lska said:

Kim's whole story at the time was really compromised by the casting issues... the coming and going definitely contributed to the way Shane and Kim's story fell apart at the end.  I was never a fan, though.

Lawrence and Kim!  That still make me mad... Pairing Kim with Kayla's husband's murderer was just as much of a betrayal as Kayla dating Shane.  They tried to write it off as Kim's ISA work eventually, but they were really flirting with that pairing for a while.

The Lawrence and Kim pairing highlighted how Kim would self-destruct, when Shane is not in her life...It was appalling how she would defend Lawrence at every opportunity...She became an idiot around Lawrence and she should have been able to see through his BS, given everything that she had gone through in her life at that point...She inadvertently destroyed the evidence that Jack and Jennifer needed to prosecute him for Jenn's rape.. The writers clearly dropped the ball with the stories coupled with so many people leaving and the tone of the show was changing for the worst and not for the better...I have a feeling this was the time period that Ken Corday became more involved with the show...We all know how he hates supercouples and their legacies...

[Happytobehere]

11 hours ago, Apprentice79 said:

The Lawrence and Kim pairing highlighted how Kim would self-destruct, when Shane is not in her life...It was appalling how she would defend Lawrence at every opportunity...She became an idiot around Lawrence and she should have been able to see through his BS, given everything that she had gone through in her life at that point...She inadvertently destroyed the evidence that Jack and Jennifer needed to prosecute him for Jenn's rape.. The writers clearly dropped the ball with the stories coupled with so many people leaving and the tone of the show was changing for the worst and not for the better...I have a feeling this was the time period that Ken Corday became more involved with the show...We all know how he hates supercouples and their legacies...

Yes, Kayla was written in a which was totally out of character.  No way she would have gone for Shane, even in the midst of her grief (I'm not even going to mention the Jeanne/Theresa thing as it Never.Would.Have.Happened), but in some ways, Kimberly's ruination was even worse (perhaps rooted in the show's feud with PP, no explanation for the trouncing of Kayla since there seemed to be no such angst with MBE).  Just as Kayla never would have gone for Shane, Kimberly never would have gone for the man who 1) Killed her brother-in-law, Steve (let's not forget she was the first Brady to support their relationship), 2) Killed Steve as part of his attempt to kill her brother, Bo, 3) Raped Jennifer, remember not only did she bare witness to Adrienne and Kayla's traumas following their rapes, she was raped by her uncle as a child and Victor as an adult; Kim was a champion for all victims, especially the survivors of sexual abuse. She never would have been Team Alamain given all that was publicly known about that man.

Edited August 10, 2016 by Happytobehere

[WendyCR72]

As was mentioned, it is so sick that Caroline is still so sweet on Victor. He raped her own daughter, Kim, is now terrorizing her granddaughter and put her great-grandson in danger, and he also tried to kill Bo during Carly 1.0 (when Victor wanted Carly) and also antagonized Roman.

It really does highlight Caroline as the utmost shittiest mother ever.

I put this here rather than the past thread as it is still sadly relevant and current. Oh, I know Caroline has also said some words to Victor, but her hate never sticks, so...

[Apprentice79]

8 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

As was mentioned, it is so sick that Caroline is still so sweet on Victor. He raped her own daughter, Kim, is now terrorizing her granddaughter and put her great-grandson in danger, and he also tried to kill Bo during Carly 1.0 (when Victor wanted Carly) and also antagonized Roman.

It really does highlight Caroline as the utmost shittiest mother ever.

I put this here rather than the past thread as it is still sadly relevant and current. Oh, I know Caroline has also said some words to Victor, but her hate never sticks, so...

Don't forget when Victor wanted to accompany Caroline to Shawn's funeral, Kim had a real problem with that and was very nasty to him ;letting him know that his presence was neither needed nor wanted, given his history with the Bradys. That bitch Caroline overruled her..Knowing how much Shawn hated Victor...It really pissed me off, that  she could not let Shawn have this last moment with his family without the stench of Victor's presence.. I really dislike Caroline..

[teacake]

10 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

As was mentioned, it is so sick that Caroline is still so sweet on Victor. He raped her own daughter, Kim, is now terrorizing her granddaughter and put her great-grandson in danger, and he also tried to kill Bo during Carly 1.0 (when Victor wanted Carly) and also antagonized Roman.

It really does highlight Caroline as the utmost shittiest mother ever.

I put this here rather than the past thread as it is still sadly relevant and current. Oh, I know Caroline has also said some words to Victor, but her hate never sticks, so...

He also kidnapped her other daughter when Kayla was pregnant with Caroline's granddaughter, and then helped frame her for murder that separated her from her baby when she went to jail.

It bothers me so much that after Bo, all of Caroline's visions have had to do with Victor.  It's not just that she's got a soft spot for him, which could be soapy conflict, but she seems so checked out on her actual family.  After everyone spent the fall worrying over her, it's been a let down.

[LeftPhalange]

I apparently forgot that Kate almost killed Steve and Kayla:

Quote

Steve Johnson and Kyla Johnson were just pawns in Kate’s wicked plan to frame Stefano and help Lucas get Sami back in 2007. Kate convinced Lucas they should tamper with Steve and Kyla’s brakes on their car to make it look as though the DiMera/Brady vendetta was still on. Lucas changed his mind at the last minute and blasted his mom for tampering with the brakes. The police concluded that the job was done by an amateur rather than Stefano. Kate was never found out.

http://soaps.sheknows.com/days-of-our-lives/news/48673/kate-roberts-salems-dangerous-diva

[Apprentice79]

Kate is now trash and went from a grey character to a villain now with Tate's kidnapping.....The last time Kate was a decent complex human being was in 1998, when ironically, she set up Sami for Franco's murder..She showed alot of guilt and struggled with what she did...She had to steel herself to see her plan go to the end...

[bannana]

I have never known Kate to be a good person, even remotely.  I watched sporadically over the years, but the storyline I remember that was so horrible was the Chloe one, and of course everything against Sami.  Her kidnapping Tate makes perfect sense to me and of course like always, she will get away with it.

[Apprentice79]

31 minutes ago, bannana said:

I have never known Kate to be a good person, even remotely.  I watched sporadically over the years, but the storyline I remember that was so horrible was the Chloe one, and of course everything against Sami.  Her kidnapping Tate makes perfect sense to me and of course like always, she will get away with it.

Kate was so much complex and sympathetic back in the 90's played beautifully and luminously by Deborah Adair....

[bannana]

Thanks, Apprentice79, I never did see Deborah Adair play Kate.  Didn't she also play Jill Foster on Y/R at one time?

[Apprentice79]

16 minutes ago, bannana said:

Thanks, Apprentice79, I never did see Deborah Adair play Kate.  Didn't she also play Jill Foster on Y/R at one time?

Yes, she did....I loved her Kate, so mysterious, intelligent, manipulative, business woman that caught Victor's attention and adored Lucas with all her might...With her Kate, you did not really know, if she truly loved Victor or did she align herself with him because of his money and power to achieve her goals....I can't see her Kate mucking it up with Sami in the gutter, being the town whore or throwing Lucas under the bus for her own gain.. My only issue with her Kate was that James E. Reilly dumbed her down to make Vivian triumphant in her schemes to keep her apart from Victor..I loved the way that Sherry Anderson wrote her....She was too smart to be so blind to Vivian...

Edited September 8, 2016 by Apprentice79

[teacake]

2 hours ago, LeftPhalange said:

I apparently forgot that Kate almost killed Steve and Kayla:

http://soaps.sheknows.com/days-of-our-lives/news/48673/kate-roberts-salems-dangerous-diva

This was during the five minutes that it seemed that Hogan Sheffer had real control over the show, and it was kind of great.  Kate tampered with the breaks, but I thought she did something else so that the car wouldn't start and they wouldn't really be in danger... Steve and Kayla saw her running away from the car and Steve seduced Kayla in the backseat outside the pub to take her mind off the danger, and then Hope saw the car moving and opened the door and got an eyeful... this was when they were trying to conceive their little murderer.  Anyway, good times.

[Happytobehere]

3 hours ago, Apprentice79 said:

Kate was so much complex and sympathetic back in the 90's played beautifully and luminously by Deborah Adair....

I agree.  I never thought Kate was a great or even a really good person when played by Adair, but she had layers that made her understandable and sympathetic, even when she was awful to Billie before and after she found out Billie was her child (Rhinna's Billie was likable and rootable back then).  While I like Laurne Koslow as an actress and think she is a wonderfully quirky personality, I have always thought her Kate is downright despicable  with little to no redeeming values.

[LeftPhalange]

7 hours ago, lska said:

This was during the five minutes that it seemed that Hogan Sheffer had real control over the show, and it was kind of great.  Kate tampered with the breaks, but I thought she did something else so that the car wouldn't start and they wouldn't really be in danger... Steve and Kayla saw her running away from the car and Steve seduced Kayla in the backseat outside the pub to take her mind off the danger, and then Hope saw the car moving and opened the door and got an eyeful... this was when they were trying to conceive their little murderer.  Anyway, good times.

I'm confused as to why Kate would ever scheme with Lucas to help him get Sami back.

[nilyank]

Quote

 

I'm confused as to why Kate would ever scheme with Lucas to help him get Sami back.

So am I because she was working with EJ as he schemed to get Sami. Wasn't she the one to telll him that Johnny was his son?

Edited September 9, 2016 by nilyank

[teacake]

7 hours ago, nilyank said:

So am I because she was working with EJ as he schemed to get Sami. Wasn't she the one to telll him that Johnny was his son?

It sounds like she was trying to get back in Lucas' life.  It's kind of convoluted though.

[minirth]

What surprises me the most about 2012-2013 is how much fun I'm having watching Kristen and how much I'm coming to detest Nicole.  

I had never seen much of Kristen and frankly never had any interest in her until I stumbled onto her aborted Flashdrive Wedding of Epic Awesomeness to Brady.  I had to see the backstory, so I hunted it down and dove in.  How much pure soapy fun was that?  Kristen coming back to Salem, tormenting the SHIT out of John and Marlena, taking up with Brady, and of course, revenge-boning Eric!  Frankly, tormenting Marlena was my favorite part.  Kristen played her like a fiddle and it was glorious.

My experience with Nicole is completely different -- the more I see of her backstory, the less I am able to root for her.  Nicole always gets so hysterically offended when anyone brings up the heinous shit she's done and acts like it was in the distant past and she's a better person now.  That would be fine, if NOTHING after the first dead baby lie had ever happened!  But she lied about her miscarriage, tried to send Jennifer to jail, and then destroyed the evidence that would have exonerated Eric -- and that was all in the last what?  4 years?  I think my biggest problem with Nicole in the 2012-2013 time period is how pathetic she was -- hopelessly in love with Eric, denying it to herself and everyone else.  I keep going back to when Eric found her about to screw some ex-convict in his office -- she was FURIOUS that he accused her of nearly having sex in his office, when that was EXACTLY what she did!  That side of Nicole really aggravates me -- I like her when she owns her shit, not when she's a pathetic dishrag.  

Show was a lot more interesting then.

[JBC344]

Despite the mess they wrote for Kristen this last couple of times I really do still love the character.  I think they shouldn't have gone so cartoon villianess with her, she should of stayed as more of a grey character.  Hell, I even had no issue with her going after John and Marlena because they really did screw her over back in the day.  Eileen is such a good actress and brings such great energy to the character and show.  I do hope she is able to periodically pop in when needed.

Edited September 21, 2016 by JBC344

[DisneyBoy]

I wonder if Eileen's return came with certain stipulations about her storyline because you're right - it was the best one the show had in the last few years. Don't get me wrong, her rape of Eric was disgusting, random and detrimental to her character and the other storylines in play, but it still felt like they were at least trying to keep things moving in a clear direction. Everything has been so scattered since.

Of course she isn't entirely immune to bad storytelling. Her theft of Theresa's fertilized egg was very rushed and poorly developed and then they tied it up in the span of about a week a few months later and threw Kristen out a window. Hardly their best work.

Heck, I even found Chloe somewhat interesting when she returned back then and had that conversation with Kristen and Brady at the coffee shop. She was making eyes at Brady and seemed to have a lot of personality and I thought "this girl should come back to the show!"

Much has changed.

I'm just glad that they referenced some of the show's best history from the last 20 years during the first few months of her return. Seeing Kristen and John back at the Horton Cabin for instance, now that I know their history better thanks to YT videos, was really significant and filled with complex emotions. Later, seeing Kristen getting seduced by John in the renovated Secret Room was similarly exciting, considering their history.

And her treatment of Marlena really was delightful, considering how smug RoboMar has become.

Yup, good times.

[minirth]

I have not been able to find some key episodes, which is very frustrating.  Can't find John seducing Kristen in the secret room, the first failed Brady/Kristen wedding, John telling Brady the truth about Kristen pulling away, or and this is the most frustrating, Eric confronting Nicole after Jennifer told him the truth.  ARGH!  

I hated Kristen's subsequent return, theft of Theresa's egg, and defenestration.  Total crap!  

[Apprentice79]

8 hours ago, JBC344 said:

Despite the mess they wrote for Kristen this last couple of times I really do still love the character.  I think they shouldn't have gone so cartoon villianess with her, she should of stayed as more of a grey character.  Hell, I even had no issue with her going after John and Marlena because they really did screw her over back in the day.  Eileen is such a good actress and brings such great energy to the character and show.  I do hope she is able to periodically pop in when needed.

How did they screw her over? she started messing with Marlena, scheming against her...Contrast that with Isabella, who was intensely jealous of Marlena, but, never did anything to her..I hate the Dimeras and they have overstayed their welcome over the years....I think the show only has room for Benji, Tony and Chad....All of the rest should  stay gone...

Edited September 22, 2016 by Apprentice79

[neuromom]

6 minutes ago, Apprentice79 said:

How did they screw her over? she started messing with Marlena, scheming against her...Contrast that with Isabella, who was intensely jealous of Marlena, but, never did anything to her..I hate the Dimeras and they have overstayed their welcome over the years....I think the show only has room for Benji, Tony and Chad....All of the rest should  stay gone...

Agreed on the Dimeras. Tony was always my favorite. Unfortunately, the first two are dead. But, if they can resurrect Orpheus, who was actually "pronounced" dead by Dr. RoJohn (never mind the retcon of him being "left for dead"..his eyes were wide open and frozen and RoJohn checked his pulse)- they can certainly resurrect Benjy or Tony.

[Apprentice79]

5 minutes ago, neuromom said:

Agreed on the Dimeras. Tony was always my favorite. Unfortunately, the first two are dead. But, if they can resurrect Orpheus, who was actually "pronounced" dead by Dr. RoJohn (never mind the retcon of him being "left for dead"..his eyes were wide open and frozen and RoJohn checked his pulse)- they can certainly resurrect Benjy or Tony.

Benji had so much potential as a character and his awesome history with Steve and Kayla...

[JBC344]

50 minutes ago, Apprentice79 said:

How did they screw her over? she started messing with Marlena, scheming against her...Contrast that with Isabella, who was intensely jealous of Marlena, but, never did anything to her..I hate the Dimeras and they have overstayed their welcome over the years....I think the show only has room for Benji, Tony and Chad....All of the rest should  stay gone...

When I say screwed over I'm usually talking in soap terms.  John screwed her over in the sense that while Kristen was playing the dutiful pregnant fiancée, John was pining over Marlena behind her back.  Considering everything that happened with Roman, Marlena wasn't that sympathetic to the possibility of John leaving Kristen for her.  Kristen's pregnancy was the only thing that kept Marlena and John from sleeping with one another. 

Now Marlena and John became justified after Kristen's scheming but before that Kristen was a pretty dedicated partner to John and unfortunately was on her way to becoming a casualty to their "on again/off again" love.  Until Kristen lost the baby, started scheming and actually turned the tables on them. 

[minirth]

I cannot believe how badly this show wasted GV!  I just watched a clip of Nicole fantasizing about Eric wanting her, and he was *hot*, and *sexy*, and *sparkly*!  I've spent so much time watching sad-sack Eric moping his way through life that I forgot how much fun GV was on GH when Lucky and Sam were seeing each other.   Why did they make him a victim of Kristen?  And the elephant story -- dear god, the elephant story!  The very definition of boredom!  Just because GV does "hangdog" well doesn't mean we want to see it week after week after week KILL ME NOW.  Or, kill Daniel!  And even that wasn't very interesting!  It *should* have been!  There should have been conflicted feelings and flashbacks to Daniel not telling him about Nicole's betrayaaaaaal, and him having to find out through Jennifer (although they didn't actually show that conversation -- wtf?) and regret over that lost friendship. 

Speaking of fun, Rafe just came out of his coma, and Kate has been visiting him.  Those two interest me -- why did they split up?  Did Kate do something stupid, or did Rafe get self-righteous, or both?  Kate seems to wake him up quite a bit.  I didn't mind Rafe with Jordan (speaking of a wasted actor -- CS was very good on AMC), but he wasn't exactly dynamic.  Just eyebrows and mushy feelings.

[JBC344]

1 minute ago, minirth said:

I cannot believe how badly this show wasted GV!  I just watched a clip of Nicole fantasizing about Eric wanting her, and he was *hot*, and *sexy*, and *sparkly*!  I've spent so much time watching sad-sack Eric moping his way through life that I forgot how much fun GV was on GH when Lucky and Sam were seeing each other.   Why did they make him a victim of Kristen?  And the elephant story -- dear god, the elephant story!  The very definition of boredom!  Just because GV does "hangdog" well doesn't mean we want to see it week after week after week KILL ME NOW.  Or, kill Daniel!  And even that wasn't very interesting!  It *should* have been!  There should have been conflicted feelings and flashbacks to Daniel not telling him about Nicole's betrayaaaaaal, and him having to find out through Jennifer (although they didn't actually show that conversation -- wtf?) and regret over that lost friendship. 

Speaking of fun, Rafe just came out of his coma, and Kate has been visiting him.  Those two interest me -- why did they split up?  Did Kate do something stupid, or did Rafe get self-righteous, or both?  Kate seems to wake him up quite a bit.  I didn't mind Rafe with Jordan (speaking of a wasted actor -- CS was very good on AMC), but he wasn't exactly dynamic.  Just eyebrows and mushy feelings.

Yeah, there was never a real explanation as to why Rafe broke things off with Kate.  He was definitely having fun with her and you could see that it surprised him how much he did like her outside of having sex.  I think in his mind he never wanted to fully admit that he would want someone like Kate.  I think this is the fundamental issue with Rafe is that he is self-righteous and holier than thou, when the reality is that he has always been attracted to complicated women.  Sami and Kate, his friendship with Nicole.  It probably explains why when given the shot with "plain Jane" Jordan, Rafe cheated on her with Kate.

[Apprentice79]

On 9/22/2016 at 2:09 AM, JBC344 said:

When I say screwed over I'm usually talking in soap terms.  John screwed her over in the sense that while Kristen was playing the dutiful pregnant fiancée, John was pining over Marlena behind her back.  Considering everything that happened with Roman, Marlena wasn't that sympathetic to the possibility of John leaving Kristen for her.  Kristen's pregnancy was the only thing that kept Marlena and John from sleeping with one another. 

Now Marlena and John became justified after Kristen's scheming but before that Kristen was a pretty dedicated partner to John and unfortunately was on her way to becoming a casualty to their "on again/off again" love.  Until Kristen lost the baby, started scheming and actually turned the tables on them. 

I understand your point of view..I feel that the person who got screwed over in soap terms was Roman...He was kidnapped by Stefano and put in a dungeon for seven years..While Marlena, his family and children lived and bonded with an impostor, living his life.....He lost time with them that he would never get back....For example: he was not there for Bo, when Hope died or Kimberly, when her son Andrew was kidnapped..John experienced all of those things..Once he came back to Marlena and the kids..He resented John for "stealing" his life.  I wished the show had explored that more, instead of putting Kristen in the middle of the Roman/Marlena/John triangle....I resented her presence...Once Roman established a relationship with the twins, he wanted another child with Marlena..She reluctantly agreed, even though she was checked out of the marriage, due to her growing attachment to John after Isabella's death and Roman's growing belligerent and overbearing attitude about His kids close bond with John, especially Carrie....He was anti Austin, while John who knew Carrie better than Roman, was pro Austin...

I think Roman was in denial about the depth of feelings between John and Marlena..He expected everything to go back as it was, before his disappearance..I think that John and Marlena were going to have an affair and Isabella's pregnancy with Brady, put a stop to that for a while....The scene in Mexico where Isabella told Roman about her pregnancy showed the relief that they both felt about the pregnancy...In their minds, that would keep John and Marlena away from one another...For a while, John and Marlena did try and forget each other with their partners and  they were happy..Until, Isabella got cancer and died.. Once the affair happened and then Marlena got pregnant with Belle..Roman believed that she was his daughter and loved her with all of his heart...Months later at her christening, his worst nightmare came true and Marlena confessed her infidelity in front of the whole town..How humiliating for Roman! Then he found out that his baby girl Sami witnessed John and Marlena having sex and that caused her to have an eating disorder to cope with that...Months later, he found out that Belle is not his daughter, but, his wife's lover John....Kristen was in town and she witnessed all of this drama that went down between all three..If she chose to get involved with John after all that, then that was on her..For me, and this if just my opinion, Roman lost everything and was screwed over by Jarlena and not Kristen...Roman turning dark to hurt them would have been more sympathetic and rooted in history...

The events at Maison Blanche was when Roman realized that Marlena would never love him the same way that she loved John..Her attempts at seducing Stefano, their mortal enemy,  who wreaked havoc in their lives, to save John's life,left no doubt that it was over between them...His life with his doc was an illusion...Their bond was forever broken and nothing would be, as it once was..I really felt bad for Roman....Sometimes in life, you can't go home again..Kristen deserved everything that she got...You cannot force somebody to love you....However, I do think her slow descent into evil was well done, it started with just a letter and Eileen rocked it....

Edited September 23, 2016 by Apprentice79

[minirth]

Yeah, there was never a real explanation as to why Rafe broke things off with Kate.  He was definitely having fun with her and you could see that it surprised him how much he did like her outside of having sex.  I think in his mind he never wanted to fully admit that he would want someone like Kate.  I think this is the fundamental issue with Rafe is that he is self-righteous and holier than thou, when the reality is that he has always been attracted to complicated women. 

That definitely sounds like Rafe.  I think you nailed him.

I'm enjoying the discussion about John/Kristen/Marlena, since I missed those years entirely.