Magic, Enchantments, and Curses: Bibbidi Bobbidi Boo

[FabulousTater]

Yup.  It really, really is.  But I can see them doing it anyway, especially since they're paying attention to Rumple's magic this season.

That's what really irritates me. It doesn't matter to them if it makes sense. No, that's the furthest thing from their mind. They're just gonna do it anyway 'cause they think it's cool. What a bunch of wankers...

Basically, this is me watching this irritating show 90% of the time.

Edited October 10, 2014 by FabulousTater

[kili]

Going back to that Rumple/Henry deleted scene - I don't get this whole "you come from the lineage of The Dark One". It's malarky. Rumple is cursed. Not anyone else, just him. Rumple became cursed as The Dark One almost 14 years after Baelfire was born, therefore he didn't pass down The Dark One magic genes to anyone else because he ("he" Rumple, and no one else!) was cursed.

 

At first I too thought this was bogus, but then I remembered Pan. There certainly seems to be a trend in this family for them to drift towards dark magic. Henry's great-grandfather brockered a deal to become a powerful dark magic being that killed with nary a second thought and kidnapped children. Henry's grandfather was quick to burn down a populated castle and murder somebody so that he could become a powerful dark magic being and kill with nary a second thought and broker deals that destroyed lives. Henry's own father didn't stop for a moment to consider before he used dark magic to return the Dark One to the world (and all that means) so that he could get what  he wanted.

 

The Stiltskin clan is drawn towards dark magic, damn the consequences, so long as they get what they want. Is it nature or is it nurture? Was Zoso drawn to tell Rumple his story because he sensed that tending towards darkness?

[FabulousTater]

But I think that just shows they are opportunistic, selfish bastards. The Stiltskins clan legacy is making selfish, horrible life choices (aka, the #1 Reason I think Henry needs to be sterilized). That's not magical. That's like, everyday, flawed human behavior. And in their (the Stiltskins) world what could get them what they wanted (power, immortality, etc.) was Dark Magic, so they made deals with Dark Magic brokers to get them what they wanted and fulfill their desires. They are attracted to the darkness because they have habit of making terrible choices and the results happened to be darkly magical because in the Enchanted Forest you can't throw a rock without hitting something (darkly) magical. Hell, even Snow White got a hold of Dark Fairy dust somehow.

Edited October 10, 2014 by FabulousTater

[KAOS Agent]

Given the events of "The Apprentice", I'm confused about the Dark One's dagger. I always thought the rule with the dagger was that so long as someone holds it, they have the power. Once they no longer have the dagger, he's free to do whatever. I think Rumpel confirmed this in "Kansas" in the barn. It seems to me that Anna's demands that he not hurt Elsa or herself no longer held sway once she dropped the dagger. I know this show has zero rules for its magic, but if the commands don't end once the bearer of the dagger loses control of it, future commands could run counter to prior ones and that would build up over the eternal life of the Dark One rendering him completely useless in terms of his power. For example, what if Hans were to get control of the dagger now and tell Rumpel to kill Elsa & Anna? What command has the power in that situation? What if Belle were to command him to always tell the truth or to never kill anyone again, but then someone steals the dagger from her and commands him to kill their enemies? Who wins in the war of commands? If prior commands hold control even without possession of the dagger, it seems to me that Rumpel could just have Belle command him to never follow any commands given to him in the future. End of him worrying about the dagger having power over him. 

Edited October 21, 2014 by KAOS Agent

[snarkastic]

If prior commands hold control even without possession of the dagger, it seems to me that Rumpel could just have Belle command him to never follow any commands given to him in the future. End of him worrying about the dagger having power over him. 

 

Maybe the writers have never seen Ella Enchanted, I don't know.

[stealinghome]

Yeah, I actually don't know why the writers didn't have Anna make a deal with Rumpel to give him back the dagger. That seems like it would have been a more long-lasting (and also logical) solution.

[Mari]

Yeah, I actually don't know why the writers didn't have Anna make a deal with Rumpel to give him back the dagger. That seems like it would have been a more long-lasting (and also logical) solution.

I'm hoping it was done on purpose and comes back to bite her in the butt.  She's been sweet, but hasn't exactly been smart.  Them making her the rainbow that wanders through the Enchanted Forest splashing unicorn glitter and making everyone a little bit sparklier and doling out the wisdom she gained from her years in the palace pretty much by herself?  It's overkill.  All she needs to do is sing and have violet or sea-foam colored eyes.

[Camera One]

Why is it so damn easy for the megavillains to break/make powerful magic?  To unlock the magic Hat box, all Rumple had to do was to get *someone else's* tears of resisting the Dark Side?  Seriously, no Dark One ever could figure out how to circumvent that dumb-ass security system?  To make the all-powerful True Love Potion, all he needed was to grab some of Snow and Charming's hair?   Easy as Betty Crocker and practically costs nothing.

Edited October 25, 2014 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

Yeah. Zelena broke the laws of magic with random ingredients... She did the impossible, yet her execution was "dumber than a box of hair". Pan was able to overpower the Dark One with super special Neverland magic. I don't even need to explain all the "amazing" things Regina can do.

Could the villains be intimidating without massive handicaps?

Edited October 26, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

I've been wondering about the magic hat. It seems that the stars on the hat represent magical people who have been sucked into it, since it added a star when the Apprentice went in. The Apprentice seemed to have been in charge of it for a long time, since he fended off Zoso (do we know how long he was the Dark One?). He said that every Dark One had tried to get it. But if the Apprentice (and maybe his master?) has been in charge of the hat for every Dark One, how far back does the hat go, and where did the other stars come from? Was the hat just being guarded or was it ever used? Is that the way to imprison bad magic people who can't otherwise be contained? Has it ever fallen into bad hands before Rumple, so that some good magicians are in there? Can people be rescued from it once they're sucked in?

 

I also had a really, really wacky thought after considering these things while I was waking up this morning and in that state where I was conscious of what I was thinking but not entirely in control of it. I found myself wondering if Hook's father's overnight disappearance might have been him being sucked into the hat, and he was a fugitive from the people who wanted to get him into the hat. It doesn't work when I think about it consciously because we've never seen even the slightest inkling that Hook has any inherent latent magical power (though it would be highly ironic if it turned out that he did, considering all those years he spent trying to find a way to fight the Dark One, and given the way he's so encouraging of Emma exploring her power), and I think he said that the authorities were waiting at the destination, which they wouldn't be if they'd already caught their quarry.

 

Still, if the hat was at all used over time, it would be a way of explaining people who disappeared unexpectedly.

[regularlyleaded]

I was looking for something in the old TWoP archives for this thread and came across this gem posted by ElectricBoogalo (in the very first post in the thread, no less!):
 

I can't wait to see the way the queen's curse plays out in specific ways and what the rules of magic are in this world!

Whelp, four seasons in, I think we can now say (to borrow from Whose Line Is It Anyway? ) ,"Welcome to Once Upon A Time the show where everything's made up and having rules of magic doesn't matter! That's right, the rules of magic are just like the plot line of a porno film. They just don't matter (to the writers)!"

[Camera One]

LOL, I can just imagine the naive posts we all made back in the day when we had something we don't have now... hope.  The Blue Fairy has become the Bitter Fairy.

Edited October 30, 2014 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

Hook having magic would work for me. I know many will say, "No he's the muscle guy!", but it's a twist that could lead to a lot of character development, especially with Captain Swan. I would *never* want him to have Savior status or super light magic, but some basic spells would suffice. Son of Poseidon?

[Curio]

Hook having magic would work for me. I know many will say, "No he's the muscle guy!", but it's a twist that could lead to a lot of character development, especially with Captain Swan. I would *never* want him to have Savior status or super light magic, but some basic spells would suffice. Son of Poseidon?

 

Okay, I'll be that person then. "NO! He's the muscle guy!" ;-)

 

But in all seriousness, I don't know if Hook suddenly having magic would benefit his character at this point. I think what makes him unique is how he's somehow survived centuries without having any magical abilities and he's built up a larger-than-life pirate persona to fool people. It also shows how much he cares for Emma whenever he motivates her to use magic, even though he's powerless and has seen firsthand how dark magic can nearly destroy a person's life. I could maybe see Hook pull a Belle where he's able to occasionally use a magical item to unlock something; otherwise, I'd like to keep him non-magical. Also, there's just something ironic about our fairy tale Captain Hook being non-magical, while his girlfriend who grew up in the World Without Magic is the partner who actually has magical abilities.

Edited October 30, 2014 by Curio

[Mitch]

"

No he's the muscle guy!", but it's a twist that could lead to a lot of character development, especially with Captain Swan. I would *never* want him to have Savior status or super light magic, but some basic spells would suffice. Son of Poseidon

 

Hmm, Hook's pretty and hot, but muscle guy no.  I really don't want to see anymore people with magic until they can get their freakin' rules down and stick with them.

 

Whelp, four seasons in, I think we can now say (to borrow from Whose Line Is It Anyway? ) ,"Welcome to Once Upon A Time the show where everything's made up and having rules of magic doesn't matter! That's right, the rules of magic are just like the plot line of a porno film. They just don't matter (to the writers)!"

 

I remember Season 1 and loving it and just waiting for this mythology and world building they were doing, like Buffy (which for all its faults and misses, stick pretty close to the rules and mythology it created.) I hated that the curse was broke so easy at the end...but comforted myself with now we are going to find some answers...long and drawn out ones, but answers just the same. BWAAAHHHH on that dummy!

 

Has anyone ever asked the two guys in charge about the rules of magic and their piss poor world building? All I see are questions on plots and the different fan groups. I would love to see their answers.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Hmm, Hook's pretty and hot, but muscle guy no.  I really don't want to see anymore people with magic until they can get their freakin' rules down and stick with them.

So Hook's just... cannon fodder? ;)

 

Replying in Relationships.

[Mitch]

I think the perfect "reset," for this show (since they love that so much...) is to end one season or one half season with magic being obliterated from Storybrooke...be it by the act of a villain or because the heros figure that is the only way to beat that particular villain. The next season would start out and everyone would be even steven but it would give everyone a chance to grow a bit....especially Rumpie, who I think is stuck in a rut worse the Regina.  How would he deal with this world without power...(yea, he did for 28 years but he was in dream world....) Anyway,  non magic villain could come along and start screwing with everyone and our heros and gray characters would have to find their brains again. There could be a little magic bit by bit but the storyline would be how people get it, who has it  and who can be trusted. They should have done that last year with the new curse.. (no one explains how magic was brougth back to our world did they?)

[Camera One]

That would be so good, Mitch.  It is something I had been hoping since Season 2.  Unfortunately, knowing these writers, magic would be gone in the season finale, and it would be back 40 min into the next season's premiere.

[Mari]

Also, is there trouble in paradise for Baby Neal to have come out normal? Because I thought Emma had magic because she was the product of true love. And that it was light magic.

We've debated it a little before, but Emma's magic can't only be because of Snow and David having True Love.

 

True Love is apparently not super-rare in the Enchanted Forest.  Not every couple is, but enough are confirmed (Snow/David, Philip/Aurora, Cinderella/Sean?, Belle/Rumple, Robin/Regina, Abigail/Frederick--all canon True Love couple of the same time period) that True Love Magical Babies would be pretty well known; based on those statistics, there should be at least a few every generation, even if most babies parents don't meet the magical True Love Curse Breaking threshold.

 

Cora and Rumple were both surprised that Emma had magic.   If True Love babies automatically came with magical ability, then Cora and Rumple would not have been surprised--Rumple's been too involved with magical shenanigans, and Cora was a heart-pulling expert.

 

I'm not saying that the True Love didn't boost it, or have some part in it, but there had to be more to it, or Cora and Rumple would've at least seriously considered that Emma would have magic.

Edited November 11, 2014 by Mari

[YaddaYadda]

I always sort of wondered if Lake Nostros didn't have something to do with it.  The waters there are magical.  I don't think it's something the writers will ever take time to explain anyway.  Zelena was born with her magic before Cora ever went near Rumple and Ingrid was born with her magic and Elsa's magic is the price of magic, so it seems like this falls into the no explanation required, it just happens, accept it and move on clause.

[Shanna Marie]

I figure that Emma's magic was the result of a lot of things all coming together, in circumstances that would be hard to repeat. She was the product of true love whose DNA was woven into the curse in a kind of purified form that distilled it as the essence of true love, then she was put into a magical wardrobe immediately after birth, which had to have given a big jolt of magic as it spent its magic sending her to another world as the curse with her DNA in it struck. So her magic is congenital rather than genetic, but based on something that was done to/with her genes.

 

The big question for me is not so much if Baby Snowflake is magical, but whether Henry might have any magic. If Baby Snowflake didn't go through the same circumstances, he wouldn't have magic, but if those circumstances altered Emma's DNA, then Henry might have inherited something.

[Serena]

Maybe, like being named Neal canceled out any specialness Baby Snowflake might have had, having half of Neal's DNA did the same to Henry ;)

[KingOfHearts]

 

The big question for me is not so much if Baby Snowflake is magical, but whether Henry might have any magic. If Baby Snowflake didn't go through the same circumstances, he wouldn't have magic, but if those circumstances altered Emma's DNA, then Henry might have inherited something.

Regina mentioned in 2x02 that she could teach him magic. Magic is a gift, not just anyone has it, so maybe he does. It hasn't been confirmed on the show, but I wouldn't be the least surprised if that were the case. The Heart of the Truest Believer is a magical object that gave the power of eternal life to Pan, so he's got at least something going for him.

[Camera One]

Baby Snowflake got zapped with Zelena's megawatt power time travel spell.  The fetus also got hit with another Dark Curse plus a memory spell, and his mother's heart was temporarily removed from the body when it contained the baby.  I'm surprised Snow hasn't expressed any concern about all that, since it is more than an unusual pregnancy.  And then Aurora's time as a Flying Monkey could have affected the baby too.  Along with Ashley's 28+year pregnancy.  All three of them were threatened by people who wanted to steal their babies and use them for who knows what.  It's not Mommy+Me group, it's Traumatic Pregnancy Support Group.  The Goodbye song takes on a whole new disturbing meaning, when you realize that there are megavillains out there all wanting their babies.

Edited November 11, 2014 by Camera One

[Serena]

Regina mentioned in 2x02 that she could teach him magic. Magic is a gift, not just anyone has it, so maybe he does. It hasn't been confirmed on the show, but I wouldn't be the least surprised if that were the case. The Heart of the Truest Believer is a magical object that gave the power of eternal life to Pan, so he's got at least something going for him.

Actually, that line made me think that yes, anyone can have it. Like magic is something in the air and you just need to learn to use it. It's different for a few people who have magic inside of them (Elsa, Emma, Zelena and Ingrid) but we've yet to see someone try to learn magic and not manage to do it. Since Henry had never manifested magic before, and Regina was claiming to be able to teach him, that pretty much tells me that it's like learning an instrument: not everyone will be super good at it, but anyone can learn the basics. Hell, even Belle managed to cast a spell on the whole town and she'd never done anything similar before.

Edited November 11, 2014 by Serena

[stealinghome]

Regina mentioned in 2x02 that she could teach him magic. Magic is a gift, not just anyone has it, so maybe he does. It hasn't been confirmed on the show, but I wouldn't be the least surprised if that were the case. The Heart of the Truest Believer is a magical object that gave the power of eternal life to Pan, so he's got at least something going for him.

This seems to be ambiguous, though. What I've taken from the show is that there are two types of magic--Inherent Magic and Learned Magic--and that within Learned Magic, there's a range of aptitude levels.

 

Emma has Inherent Magic--way before she even suspected she had magic, she could do magic (blasting Cora at the lake). And she doesn't lose her magic in The Land Without Magic, it still works in Boston/NYC/etc. I think Rumpel himself confirmed that it's not that Emma can do magic, it's that she is magic. And these magic-users seem to be the most powerful of all. (Elsa and Snow Queen too would seem to fall into this category.)

 

On the Learned Magic side, which pretty much everyone else on the show possesses, I think that fundamentally the show has shown us that anyone off the street can do magic if it's 99% set up for them. Belle speaking the spell that would cloak the town in 3A (can't remember the episode) is a great example--Belle is no more magic than my right toe, but if given the proper incantation and tools, anyone can perform basic spells. Snow could cast the Dark Curse in 3B and have it work because Regina set everything up for her. However, as with all other skills in life, some people are better at this skill than others. Some families have like 5 brothers in the NFL or MLB, whereas other families can't throw a ball to save their lives but churn out multiple MDs, PhDs, etc. (The Mills family, for example, seems clearly to have a genetic predisposition toward being really good at magic if trained enough.) And there seems to be a knowledge component as well as an aptitude component--you can have the aptitude, but someone also has to tutor you in how it works for you to achieve your potential and become a journeyman/master in the guild, so to speak. However, Learned Magic users rely on the magic around them to power themselves, hence why Regina and Rumpel's magic doesn't work in the Land Without Magic. They've learned to access what's around them, whereas Emma or Elsa don't need that kind of "battery."

 

ETA: Great minds, Serena!

Edited November 11, 2014 by stealinghome

[Shanna Marie]

Baby Snowflake got zapped with Zelena's megawatt power time travel spell.  The fetus also got hit with another Dark Curse plus a memory spell, and his mother's heart was temporarily removed from the body when it contained the baby.  I'm surprised Snow hasn't expressed any concern about all that, since it is more than an unusual pregnancy.

Sounds like a setup for evil magic to me -- I'm calling it now, there will be some other kind of curse or something that separates baby Neal from his family, then he'll be hit with a case of Soap Opera Rapid Aging Syndrome and will miraculously return as a teenager -- an evil feral teenage sorcerer bent on destroying them all (or wait, am I just remembering the Connor plotline from Angel?).

[KingOfHearts]

 

Belle is no more magic than my right toe, but if given the proper incantation and tools, anyone can perform basic spells.

 

Hell, even Belle managed to cast a spell on the whole town and she'd never done anything similar before.

 

That doesn't count - she used a magical object. She herself didn't conjure any magic out of the air. As Zelena and the Wizard said, "Magic is a gift". Regina also has this gift, as the Wizard stated. So no, not everyone is able to do it. The way magic works is vague, and it takes more than emotion. I could say one might be able to be taught, but they can't just come up with it on their own unless they're innate like Emma or Elsa, or they're a prodigy like Zelena. When Rumple, Cora or whatever teach someone, they're giving the gift. It requires special training by people who already practice it. It can't be easy, otherwise everyone would be doing it.

 

Not everyone has the aptitude to be taught, though. Magic has a price, and a lot of people don't want to pay it. Regina sucked at magic for a very long time until she was able to murder people. Even Cora and Anastasia had trouble grasping it. I'd say there's a lot of people not taught because the people who do have magic only teach those that would benefit themselves, like Rumple with Regina/Zelena and Cora with Anastasia.

 

My point is - not just anyone can start conjuring spells without help from objects on their own, unless they're given the gift, whether through birth or special training.

Edited November 11, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[KAOS Agent]

You can't take Regina's offer to teach Henry magic and apply it to what's later said about magic because it doesn't mesh. When Regina offered to teach Henry, she didn't know that Emma was magical/wouldn't suspect a magical lineage which implies magic can be learned by anyone. The world building on this show, especially the magic parts of it, is horribly done. At this point, pretty much the only way to apply everything they've shown in show is to split it into inherent magic vs learned magic with power levels of learned magic based on aptitude and studiousness.

Edited November 11, 2014 by KAOS Agent

[KingOfHearts]

 

You can't take Regina's offer to teach Henry magic and compare it with what's later said about magic because it doesn't mesh. When Regina offered to teach Henry, she didn't know that Emma was magical/wouldn't suspect a magical lineage which implies magic can be learned by anyone.

She can teach him, but he can't do magic unless she imparts him the "gift" through special training. The real question is if he's innate or not. If he's innate, he can already do magic without being taught. (He would just need to learn the spells.) I don't think her assessment had anything to do with his lineage, as you said.

Edited November 11, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

Snow also did magic when they were trapped in Rumple's cell back in the Enchanted Forest.  She remembered Cora's book and then blew on the parchment with Emma's name to free the squid ink.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Snow also did magic when they were trapped in Rumple's cell back in the Enchanted Forest.  She remembered Cora's book and then blew on the parchment with Emma's name to free the squid ink.

Again, that wasn't her - that was a magical object. She didn't do any magic on her own. The scroll was what was magical.

 

There's a difference between poofing clouds out of the magic in the air and using something like a wand. You need the gift of magic (through special training or birth) to conjure it out of the air, but anyone can drink a potion or blow on a piece of paper.

Edited November 11, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

The world building on this show, especially the magic parts of it, is horribly done.

 

Yes, and that's why whatever the final ingredient is for Rumple to fully use the hat will be pulled out of the writers' you know what.  There are no clear rules, so no logical way to deduce anything and make predictions.

 

And let me guess, once the Snow Queen puts the yellow ribbons on Emma and Elsa, they will somehow make Emma and Elsa forget their old selves and/or be completely powerless to the Snow Queen's suggestions.  How these objects work are about as clear as mud, much like the pendant in 3B and Pandora's box in 3A.

[KAOS Agent]

My assumption was that the yellow ribbons will protect them from the shattered sight spell. Something along the lines of the bonds of sisterly love will keep them from turning on each other, but that might be giving the writers too much credit for applying logic to their magical items.

[regularlyleaded]

What I've taken from the show is that there are two types of magic--Inherent Magic and Learned Magic--and that within Learned Magic, there's a range of aptitude levels.

IA. That's what I've taken away from everything so far. Also, I tend to think Emma, Elsa, Snow Queen, Zelena, and all the magic users with Inherent Magic are that way for genetic reasons. I subscribe to the the theory they were born inherently magical because it's in their DNA, just as some people in the real world are born as mathematical or musical savants and others (including their siblings) aren't. I don't think some confluence of outside events somehow led them into having special magic DNA. They (Emma, Elsa, Snow Queen and Zelena) just hit the magical DNA jackpot, just like some people hit the genius IQ jackpot.

 

Cora and Rumple were both surprised that Emma had magic.   If True Love babies automatically came with magical ability, then Cora and Rumple would not have been surprised--Rumple's been too involved with magical shenanigans, and Cora was a heart-pulling expert.

This. When it was first revealed that Emma had magic, I also initially assumed it was because she was the product of True Love. But when it's later revealed that both Rumple and Cora (but most especially Rumple) didn't know Emma had magic, that leads me to think that Emma's magic is not related to being the product of True Love.

 

I think being the product of True Love is what allowed Rumple to tie Emma to The Curse because Rumple was able to bottle the same essence of True Love and insert it into the curse as a safety valve, hence Emma could break The Curse. But (IMO) Emma having magic has nothing to do with The Curse or being the product of True Love. Even Rumple said that it had nothing to do with what he did, that Emma having magic that was something special about her.

 

Also, is it just me or ... I know it's been assumed that Emma is known as "The Savior" because Rumple named her as such because he set her up to break The Curse, but it seems to me now that all these prophecies imply that Rumple didn't name Emma "The Savior". It seems like it was the prophecies that named Emma "The Savior" (at least in the one written in runes that The Snow Queen has and that Emma found**), and so that's why Rumple used her. Rumple didn't make Emma "The Savior", he just followed the instruction manual, so to speak. So all this leads me to think that there's more to all of this than just Rumple's machinations. That Rumple was simply taking advantage of the moment in time when the Savior would be born, and really, Emma would still be "The Savior" no matter what Rumple did (The Savior for what I have no idea). Then again, it's this show and this will all probably lead nowhere... I've simply fallen into the biggest trap you can with this show -- assuming there's a grander scheme. 

 

(** this is assuming The Snow Queen didn't get the prophecy written in runes from Rumple himself and he faked it. )

[ParadoxLost]

So can someone do a rundown of the rules of having your heart pulled from your chest and being someone else's puppet. 

[KingOfHearts]

 

So can someone do a rundown of the rules of having your heart pulled from your chest and being someone else's puppet.

 

If you pull someone's heart out, you control the person's actions. They're a slave to whatever you want them to do as long as you possess their heart. If you speak over the heart, you can give the heart's original owner instructions they're forced to follow or speak what you say. If you crush the heart with your hand, it kills the heart's original body instantly.

[scarynikki12]

The person without the heart does retain their autonomy depending on the circumstances.  Graham's heart was in Regina's vault and he was able to defy her a little in favor of his strong feelings for Emma.  Then Regina got his heart and killed him in retaliation but he did manage some defiance before she got her hands back on it.  Milah had full autonomy when Rumpel took her heart but that was because he didn't intend to control her, only kill her.  If Regina hadn't returned her heart, and no one found it buried, she'd have retained her autonomy.  The person who is heartless retains some autonomy unless given specific instructions, hence Graham being under Regina's control, Aurora in 2A, and the Lost Boy in 3A.  I expect Rumpel will have a field day controlling Hook now that he has his heart. 

[Camera One]

So now we find out yet another way to get to the Land Without Magic.  A Door created by the Sorcerer.  

 

So Rumple could have just blackmailed the Sorcerer with the Hat box, and he would have gotten a door straight to Bae.

[Shanna Marie]

So Rumple could have just blackmailed the Sorcerer with the Hat box, and he would have gotten a door straight to Bae.

But would he have been able to retain his magic? That would be the sticking point for him.

 

One thing I'm wondering about the heart stuff: We know that crushing the removed heart kills the heartless body. But what happens to the removed heart if the body is killed? With Marian, it seems like she'll be okay while the ice takes over her body as long as the heart is safe, but I wonder if it works the same way for more mundane injuries, like shooting or stabbing. I've been wondering because if Storybrooke goes under a curse that makes everyone see the worst, then Hook could be toast because pretty much everyone sees the worst in him under normal circumstances. Depending how the heart thing works, that could go a variety of ways. If killing him kills his heart and Rumple needs the heart to be alive when he crushes it, that might foil Rumple's plan. But it could end up being the saving grace if someone's not dead as long as the heart is alive because it means Hook could be "killed" or mortally wounded, but survive because his heart is elsewhere, so he could then be magically healed and then his heart reinserted.

[Curio]

If killing [Hook] kills his heart and Rumple needs the heart to be alive when he crushes it, that might foil Rumple's plan. But it could end up being the saving grace if someone's not dead as long as the heart is alive because it means Hook could be "killed" or mortally wounded, but survive because his heart is elsewhere, so he could then be magically healed and then his heart reinserted.

 

I wish we had more rules about how heart-stealing works. I like the idea of a body not being entirely dead if the heart is still alive and beating somewhere else. I could see the show "killing" Hook's body as a fake out surprise, but then Emma or someone else happens to hear his heart beating via Bo's staff (since they keep making a note of mentioning that thing multiple times). That could be enough of a clue to know his heart is somewhere else, and then they could get Regina to fish around in his rib cage to double check that their suspicion is correct. Cue the search for Hook's missing heart. (Sorry, this is veering into speculation now...)

[YaddaYadda]

But isn't Bo Peeps staff only for the people who have been marked by her?

[Curio]

Ugh, you're right. But I guess these writers break their own rules all the time, so maybe Hook holding the staff was good enough? No, I know... I just wish for once they'd bring back a magical deus ex machina item from the past and actually have it work in a way that helps the current plot, instead of randomly coming up with a new magical plot device to save the day all the time.

[Writing Wrongs]

A podcast I listen to brought up a good question: When Ingrid went into the urn, she couldn't control her magic. But she comes out in complete control. So what's in the urn? Plus, she was dressed differently wasn't she?

[ShadowFacts]

 

But would he have been able to retain his magic? That would be the sticking point for him.

 

It seems like Ingrid retained her magic, she was able to mind-wipe Emma.

 

 

Hook could be toast because pretty much everyone sees the worst in him under normal circumstances. Depending how the heart thing works, that could go a variety of ways. If killing him kills his heart and Rumple needs the heart to be alive when he crushes it, that might foil Rumple's plan. But it could end up being the saving grace if someone's not dead as long as the heart is alive because it means Hook could be "killed" or mortally wounded, but survive because his heart is elsewhere, so he could then be magically healed and then his heart reinserted.

 

I think Charming was laying there dead when the heart-splitting and insertion occurred, right?  And as to being magically healed, among other possibilities, they showed Regina healing Henry's minor cut.  Why bother with that little detail except to maybe set up the next stop on Regina's redemption tour?

 

[Shanna Marie]

It seems like Ingrid retained her magic, she was able to mind-wipe Emma.

But Ingrid is inherently magical, like Emma. Rumple gets his magic via the Dark One curse. Without the dagger, he has no magic, and he has no magic outside Storybrooke, even after he introduced magic to Storybrooke. So he might have found himself totally unmagical if he'd come to our world via door, and that's what he was trying to avoid.

[ShadowFacts]

I don't remember, at what point did Rumple know he had no magic outside Storybrooke?  Did he always know it would be the case, or was that a surprise to him at some point? 

[Serena]

I don't remember, at what point did Rumple know he had no magic outside Storybrooke?  Did he always know it would be the case, or was that a surprise to him at some point? 

I don't think it was a surprise. I think he always knew, but he knew for sure in 213 when he actually got outside SB and experienced it.

[Shanna Marie]

I'm not sure he always knew he wouldn't have magic. The memory loss seemed to be a huge surprise to him, and he was furious when he found out. Then he had to find a workaround. So maybe he didn't know he'd lose his magic when he didn't know he'd revert to his cursed memories, but then once he learned about the memories, he'd have known there was a really good chance of losing his magic, too, and he was really, really furious when he verified that.

 

But Hook seems to have figured it out (or maybe Cora knew and told him) because that's why Hook tracked him down to New York to attack him -- he needed to get him in a place where they were on a more equal footing where Rumple didn't have superpowers.

[ParadoxLost]

It seems like Ingrid retained her magic, she was able to mind-wipe Emma.

 

But based on the photos of DQ and Emma arguing, it seems like the mind wipe happened in Storybrooke so Ingrid didn't necessarily have magic outside Stotybrooke either.

 

Given Emma's memory wipe I'm not sure we have proof she can work magic outside city limits either.