S01.E05: Take Pride

[rck]

Seriously, Caitlyn's friend Candis Cayne really should be giving Cait lessons in how to walk like a female. She still 'lumbers' around like a big clumsy man and in high heels it's even worse. Modifying her gait and posture while walking will greatly improve her overall look. And stop shoulder slumping! High heel walking lessons, that's what she needs.

She already walks like a female because she is female. I don't have a particularly feminine gait either and I absolutely cannot walk in high heels, but I'm still female. If Caitlyn wants to present more feminine I'm sure she'll work on it, but I can imagine it would not be easy to suddenly change everything about the way you move and hold your body.

 

Something I had never considered until just now is that for a lot of transgender people "passing" is something that's really important to them--in some situations it can literally be life threatening if someone doesn't pass--but Caitlyn, by virtue of her celebrity, will never be able to meet people and have them not know she's transgender. As such, maybe altering her behavior to look more feminine is less urgent than it is for a lot of other transgender women.

[rck]

If Jenner was into crossdressing as much as she professes, she would have mastered high heels long ago.  

Maybe high heels weren't part of her crossdressing? (Could she even find high heels in her size back in the 80's? My mom is about her height and until it became easy to shop online she always found it near impossible to find women's shoes at all, let alone high heels.) Even if she did wear high heels a lot I imagine it's different actually wearing and walking around in them in everyday life.

Edited August 28, 2015 by rck

[Kromm]

She already walks like a female because she is female. I don't have a particularly feminine gait either and I absolutely cannot walk in high heels, but I'm still female. If Caitlyn wants to present more feminine I'm sure she'll work on it, but I can imagine it would not be easy to suddenly change everything about the way you move and hold your body.

 

Something I had never considered until just now is that for a lot of transgender people "passing" is something that's really important to them--in some situations it can literally be life threatening if someone doesn't pass--but Caitlyn, by virtue of her celebrity, will never be able to meet people and have them not know she's transgender. As such, maybe altering her behavior to look more feminine is less urgent than it is for a lot of other transgender women.

There's a difference I think between "like a female" and "feminine", mostly because "feminine" describes a group of culturally agreed upon (but in some senses totally arbitrary) things, whereas as you say, "like a female" is just...  being yourself (assuming you are female). 

 

As for "altering her behavior to look more feminine" being less urgent for Caitlyn?  Sure.  But try convincing her of that. Whatever people's opinions of her walk or voice, the flip side is that we see that she seems to prioritize glamorous dresses (or in fact, dresses period--where many women in fact never wear them at all), spa treatments (again something many women don't care about), long hair (ditto), and chit-chat with "the girlfriends" (purchased girlfriends as far as we can see relative to this show at least--and again we could point out that some women hang out with guys non-romantically and don't like the stereotypical Sex-In-The-City Girlfriend chit-chat stuff).

 

And of course she's decided to wear high heels now. So it appears to be about the trappings of modern femininity for her--at least when it comes to a TV portrayal. Which is fine.  Her choice. Then again, as many have said, how reliable is a choice banged out quickly for TV in a period of weeks vs. the years many other people in transition take to figure this stuff out?  All the rigmarole about how "there's no one way to do it" and "let her pick her own path" is well and good, but seeing as how she's put herself in the center of debates like this by putting it all on TV, it's worth noting how different (and less considered) her timeline appears to be compared to most people in her position.  So the whole thing about her alterations to feminine "ideals" being less urgent? That might be nice. But it's not what she's actually doing.

Edited August 28, 2015 by Kromm

[Coffeecup]

There's a difference I think between "like a female" and "feminine", mostly because "feminine" describes a group of culturally agreed upon (but in some senses totally arbitrary) things, whereas as you say, "like a female" is just...  being yourself (assuming you are female). 

 

As for "altering her behavior to look more feminine" being less urgent for Caitlyn?  Sure.  But try convincing her of that.  Whatever people's opinions of her walk or voice, the flip side is that we see that she seems to prioritize glamorous dresses (or in fact, dresses period--where many women in fact never wear them at all), spa treatments (again something many women don't care about), long hair (ditto), and chit-chat with "the girlfriends" (purchased girlfriends as far as we can see relative to this show at least--and again we could point out that some women hang out with guys non-romantically and don't like the stereotypical Sex-In-The-City Girlfriend chit-chat stuff).

 

And of course she's decided to wear high heels now. So it appears to be about the trappings of modern femininity for her--at least when it comes to a TV portrayal. Which is fine.  Her choice. Then again, as many have said, how reliable is a choice banged out quickly for TV in a period of weeks vs. the years many other people in transition take to figure this stuff out?  All the rigmarole about how "there's no one way to do it" and "let her pick her own path" is well and good, but seeing as how she's put herself in the center of debates like this by putting it all on TV, it's worth noting how different (and less considered) her timeline appears to be compared to most people in her position.

I think what Caitlyn wants is the trappings of the Kardashian version of femininity: thick makeup, contouring, false eyelashes, Botox, plastic surgery, hair extensions, high-end designer clothes with low necklines and short skirts, and high heels. The Kardashian style is hyper-feminine and hyper-sexualized. To fit in with that style, Caitlyn would need to develop a conventional "feminine" way of moving and walking.

In the real, i.e. non-Kardashian world, most 65-year-old women have quit bothering with hassles like false eyelashes, contouring makeup and hair extensions. Many of us have bad feet and we aren't willing to endure the discomfort of high heels any longer. One great thing about being older is that you decide: to hell with suffering for fashion!

However, the paps did catch Caitlyn wearing ordinary old baggy pants, shirt and hat at the golf course the other day, so it's possible that she just glams herself up when she's being filmed for the IAC show. The paps didn't get any closeup photos that day, but I'll give Caitlyn the benefit of the doubt and assume she didn't wear her false eyelashes and contour makeup to the golf course.

Edited August 28, 2015 by Coffeecup

[possibilities]

I think this is a damned if you do, damned if you don't, situation for Jenner. If she ignores the broader realities of transgender life, she's a snob who doesn't give a shit about the rest of the world. If she tries to leverage her fame to showcase those very same transgender issues, she's condemned for not being just like everybody else.

 

I think she's allowed the show to demonstrate that her own life is extremely insulated from the life most people live, she's admitted how shocking it is to see the contrast, and she's letting other people call her on her shit, so I think it's pretty obvious to anyone watching that Jenner's reality is not the norm, nor much of an example. She's not even claiming to be particularly happy, to be honest. She's not so much a role model people can follow in terms of life choices, but a role model in the very narrow sense of promoting the idea that people should have an open mind about transgender people and issues in general. It's a low bar, but frankly a huge number of people have not cleared it, so it's a message that needs to be heard.

 

I think any reasonably intelligent person watching the show can see that not everyone has the resources or lifestyle Jenner has, and in case anyone doubts it, the show says it, over and over again.

 

The way I look at it, Jenner had the ability to get the media buzzing. Maybe some people are watching and just mocking the whole situation as spectacle. But I think it's pretty likely that a lot of people who are watching are going to be thoughtful enough to get the message to be a little more open-minded and accepting, even if they don't become model allies. And a few people watching will actually look into things beyond the show and maybe find other transgender people who are positioned as representatives of a more typical life, and are more in touch with the everyday realities than Jenner is.

 

I personally feel uncomfortable even with the "famous transgender friends" she's showcasing, because again it's all superstars and gigantic personalities. The transgender people I've met are not all flashy gigantic personalities. But again, the "everyday people" are not going to be on a Kardashian-adjacent "reality" show, so what can you do?

 

Oddly, I think the "normal" (non-flashy, non-extreme, less glam) population is more often being shown on fictional shows, like Degrassi, and The Fosters... and other shows involving children (I Am Jazz, or the recent Frontline documentary).

[millennium]

 She's not so much a role model people can follow in terms of life choices, but a role model in the very narrow sense of promoting the idea that people should have an open mind about transgender people and issues in general.

 

 

This would be the same role model who in the latest clip from her show goes out of her way to distinguish transgender people from normal people, imply that we are in fact not normal, along with a thinly-veiled suggestion that there's something undesirable or unseemly about this "trans-[gender] thing."

 

 

 

In a new clip of "I Am Cait," Caitlyn Jenner opens up to Jennifer Finney Boylan about feeling like she could be attracted to dating a man, but her friend and confidant is worried the attraction is for the wrong reasons.

 

"It would be very attractive to me to have a guy treat me like a woman," Jenner, 65, says in the clip obtained by People magazine. "That you would be treated like a normal woman."

 

Boylan asks what a "normal woman" means.

 

"Like any other woman in the street and not make it this trans-[gender] thing," she adds. "Just a normal relationship."

 

http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/caitlyn-jenner-feels-ready-normal-relationship-man/story?id=33359612

 

 

Some role model.

Edited August 28, 2015 by millennium

[briochetwist]

I'm an extremely low maintenance woman and sitting still for hours of makeup and hair, let alone going through multiple surgeries, sounds like a lot of work to me!

 

Being a woman isn't about how you look or walk (despite what Caitlyn might make it seem), so there's nothing wrong with a woman, transgender or not, moving, speaking, or eating "like a man." I'm sure she doesn't want to seem masculine, but she's under no obligation to alter her behavior if she doesn't want to. 

Well said!  It's funny how as women, transgender or not, we're judged on so many things.  On the one hand, I can see how her gait is a little jarring with all of the glam that she's got going on, but I'm not going to hold that against her.  I take karate.  It took me forever to learn how to not prance out on the mat with my girly walk at test time.  A few years later I've noticed that I sometimes have to remind myself to walk a little more 'feminine' and stop doing my 'stompy stomp confidence walk'.  :)  

 

Having said that, I've never, ever, watched KUWTK, and I avoid the KK's  at all costs, so I'm not really all that familiar with any of them, or how Cait was previously perceived, but damn, Cait is just truly unlikeable.  She comes across as very selfish, superficial, and completely out of touch.  I actually feel a bit sorry for the Kardashians, I think even they might not be ready to live this much of their life on tv.  It seem that Cait was always an absent parent and that it's always been at the bottom of her priority list. To me, this show is more about making money and storylines than it is about truth and awareness.  I can't really take any of this seriously. I don't think I need to watch anymore of this.

Edited August 28, 2015 by briochetwist

[Talented Tenth]

Gender identity and sexual orientation are two completely separate characteristics. One is what gender a person is physically and the other what sex they are romantically attracted to. Jen Boylan has transitioned to the female gender, but she has always been sexually and romantically attracted to women. You could say that Jen Boylan is lesbian but that's not correct. They may have been born with the wrong body, but their mind is still the same.

 

 

 

How can a woman be in a romantic relationship with another woman, but not be considered a lesbian?

 

Caitlyn has said a few times "I just don't know" and she's probably being truthful. 

 

I don't believe for one second that Caitlyn doesn't know who she's attracted to.  I think she likes men, but is scared to admit it.

 

The problem is, this asshole has hijacked the bus.

 

Caitlyn didn't hijack anything.  If you choose to judge a whole group of people based on Caitlyn, that's on you and you alone.  Thinking people can separate an individual from the group he or she shares traits/characteristics with.  All of the transwomen on the show aren't even alike...

[millennium]

Caitlyn didn't hijack anything.  If you choose to judge a whole group of people based on Caitlyn, that's on you and you alone.  Thinking people can separate an individual from the group he or she shares traits/characteristics with.  All of the transwomen on the show aren't even alike...

 

I'm fairly certain I said nothing about judging a whole group of people based on Jenner.  My complaint was that Jenner has unilaterally decided that the welfare of that whole group of people is hers to influence as she sees fit, and to profit from it at the same time.

 

As for thinking people, it's not thinking people who are out there bashing transgender people or discriminating against them.   It's the other 90% of the population who aren't so enlightened and whose intellectual curiosity about the subject may extend no further than the ludicrous portrayal of transgender life foisted upon the public by Caitlyn Jenner.

Edited August 28, 2015 by millennium

[editorgrrl]

How can a woman be in a romantic relationship with another woman, but not be considered a lesbian?

When you're obsessed with being "normal."

Is it just me, or is Caitlyn homophobic? Being surprised that other trans men and women are so "normal" implies you've always considered them "abnormal." She also seems to differentiate between "gay issues" and "trans issues," rather than recognizing the queer umbrella.

I'm sure her age, her privilege, and her Republicanism are contributing factors.

[ClareWalks]

Caitlyn should try wedge heels. They are a great stepping stone, and appropriate for summer even for a fashion plate like herself. I personally am a very tall lady so I rarely wear heels, but when I do they are wedges because 1) they are far more comfortable, and 2) I am injury-prone so my crappy feet cannot handle the lack of support in heels. 

[CousinAmy]

Caitlyn should try wedge heels. They are a great stepping stone, and appropriate for summer even for a fashion plate like herself. I personally am a very tall lady so I rarely wear heels, but when I do they are wedges because 1) they are far more comfortable, and 2) I am injury-prone so my crappy feet cannot handle the lack of support in heels.

I haven't worn pumps or spike heels for 30 years - my ankles are weak and it's not worth the risk of falling. But then my daughters aren't Kardashian-Jenners. Or my role models.

[millennium]

When you're obsessed with being "normal."

Is it just me, or is Caitlyn homophobic? Being surprised that other trans men and women are so "normal" implies you've always considered them "abnormal." She also seems to differentiate between "gay issues" and "trans issues," rather than recognizing the queer umbrella.

I'm sure her age, her privilege, and her Republicanism are contributing factors.

 

There was also that memorable moment from her Diane Sawyer interview when she declared, "I'm not gay."

[iwasish]

I gather from her conversations that she doesn't want to be considered trans or gay. She wants to BE a woman.  If that is her issue, isn't she considered a transsexual?

[freeradical]

I think this is a damned if you do, damned if you don't, situation for Jenner. If she ignores the broader realities of transgender life, she's a snob who doesn't give a shit about the rest of the world. If she tries to leverage her fame to showcase those very same transgender issues, she's condemned for not being just like everybody else.

I think she's allowed the show to demonstrate that her own life is extremely insulated from the life most people live, she's admitted how shocking it is to see the contrast, and she's letting other people call her on her shit, so I think it's pretty obvious to anyone watching that Jenner's reality is not the norm, nor much of an example. She's not even claiming to be particularly happy, to be honest. She's not so much a role model people can follow in terms of life choices, but a role model in the very narrow sense of promoting the idea that people should have an open mind about transgender people and issues in general. It's a low bar, but frankly a huge number of people have not cleared it, so it's a message that needs to be heard.

I think any reasonably intelligent person watching the show can see that not everyone has the resources or lifestyle Jenner has, and in case anyone doubts it, the show says it, over and over again.

The way I look at it, Jenner had the ability to get the media buzzing. Maybe some people are watching and just mocking the whole situation as spectacle. But I think it's pretty likely that a lot of people who are watching are going to be thoughtful enough to get the message to be a little more open-minded and accepting, even if they don't become model allies. And a few people watching will actually look into things beyond the show and maybe find other transgender people who are positioned as representatives of a more typical life, and are more in touch with the everyday realities than Jenner is.

I personally feel uncomfortable even with the "famous transgender friends" she's showcasing, because again it's all superstars and gigantic personalities. The transgender people I've met are not all flashy gigantic personalities. But again, the "everyday people" are not going to be on a Kardashian-adjacent "reality" show, so what can you do?

Oddly, I think the "normal" (non-flashy, non-extreme, less glam) population is more often being shown on fictional shows, like Degrassi, and The Fosters... and other shows involving children (I Am Jazz, or the recent Frontline documentary).

Great post!

[Zuleikha]

This would be the same role model who in the latest clip from her show goes out of her way to distinguish transgender people from normal people, imply that we are in fact not normal, along with a thinly-veiled suggestion that there's something undesirable or unseemly about this "trans-[gender] thing."

 

I think that's a huge leap from what Cait was saying. The quote read to me as her saying that she doesn't want a man attracted to her as a fetish. 

 

 

 

My complaint was that Jenner has unilaterally decided that the welfare of that whole group of people is hers to influence as she sees fit, and to profit from it at the same time.

I don't see that at all. First off, she is and always has been a transgender woman. Trans issues are her issues. She doesn't understand every nature of how people may struggle, be oppressed, or thrive on the basis of their gender identity because no one person can have every person's experience. But she's not an outsider and she's not appropriating. She is a part of the community.

 

Second, she's famous. Fame is a double-edged sword for everyone. A private transition was not a realistic option for her. If she hadn't done the Vanity Fair story or the reality show, we would have instead gotten paparazzi sneak photographs and a tabloid spin on her transition. Maybe if she'd just been an Olympic gold medalist, she could have had a quiet transition, but as Kris Jenner's ex-husband and a regular presence on the Kardashian shows, there was no way. She's too current. This way she is in control of her story and presentation. She's clearly trying to make her reality show more than just about her singular narrative. She made the choice to find and present other voices, including many which challenge her own.

Edited August 28, 2015 by Zuleikha

[MarysWetBar]

Am I allowed to say that I am totally over Candis?

Bible.

No wonder Cait likes her so much; she is as famewhorey as the Kardashians are, so she is familiar to Cait.

Just soooooo over her. More of the other ladies would be great!

I like Chandi (sp?)

She gets rough camera work tho...give her some of the ole vaseline lens that Cait and Candis get...its only fair.

[millennium]

I don't see that at all. First off, she is and always has been a transgender woman. Trans issues are her issues. She doesn't understand every nature of how people may struggle, be oppressed, or thrive on the basis of their gender identity because no one person can have every person's experience. But she's not an outsider and she's not appropriating. She is a part of the community.

 

 

Another instance of my words being twisted.   I never said Jenner "appropriated" it.   I said she unilaterally decided the transgender community, which is comprised of, and belongs to, a great many diverse people, is hers to brand and turn a profit on.    By appointing herself as the de facto spokesperson for this community, which never sought her intervention (and many of whose members openly resent her presuming to speak for them), she is now directly influencing the future of that community, for better or worse.

 

YMMV, but I see her as a force for the worse.  

[freeradical]

Another instance of my words being twisted. I never said Jenner "appropriated" it. I said she unilaterally decided the transgender community, which is comprised of, and belongs to, a great many diverse people, is hers to brand and turn a profit on. By appointing herself as the de facto spokesperson for this community, which never sought her intervention (and many of whose members openly resent her presuming to speak for them), she is now directly influencing the future of that community, for better or worse.

YMMV, but I see her as a force for the worse.

I'm not seeing how words were twisted at all. I don't think it's reality that Caitlyn could profit off the "entire transgender community". The mostly cisgender audience is watching the show to see Cait's experience and then hopefully educating ourselves more by buying books written by transgender people with more life experience after transition, or before transition or both. It doesn't matter how we start to learn, just that we DO start to learn. Realistically, most people would not just self educate regarding gender identity issues unless they or someone they are close to is experiencing gender identity issues. In a sense, the world "knew" Cait before her transition. Then the world learned she was experiencing gender identity issues. This show is a small step toward a greater understanding. Edited August 29, 2015 by freeradical

[Kromm]

This show is a small step toward a greater understanding.

Emphasis on "small though". I don't think lies can ever build true understanding.

 

Not that it isn't good when open conversation is encouraged.  Undoubtedly the show has done that. But in less rarefied areas than forums like this, some of the previous misunderstanding is just being replaced with brand new misunderstanding.

 

I think on the relative scale of things, shows like Transparent, Orange is the New Black and I Am Jazz are revelatory and important. This show? Not so much.

[Starchild]

I gather from her conversations that she doesn't want to be considered trans or gay. She wants to BE a woman.  If that is her issue, isn't she considered a transsexual?

As I understand it, "transsexual" is an outdated term. Some people still use it to refer to transgendered persons who have had sexual reassignment surgery, but the more modern way of thinking of it is, there are transgendered persons who have had surgery, who plan to have surgery, who might have surgery some day, maybe, and who will never have surgery (either by choice or circumstance).

[Dorne2.0]

I like they brought attention to the division that has existed between the GLB and the T community. I am bisexual and while I had a transwoman friend, many of my gay friends didn't like her and she didn't hang out with them either. To be honest, most of my inner circle were femme bisexuals or lesbians as am I and my ex-girlfriend. I think one girl dated a butch girl, but many of the other girls looked down on her for being too masculine and possibly queergender... My transwoman friend hung out with mostly straight women like my sister who considered her gay, even as she insisted she was a woman, not a gay man. She had the support of her family, was very privileged and has now fully transitioned. She is very happy and owns a Club in another city now. My sister continues to refer to her by her former name, sighs. No wonder she unfriended her on FB. I am glad this is being addressed so we can advance and work together on trans issues now. I also have begun watching Jazz and I'm happy the "T" in LGBT is no longer invisible. She's such a lovely girl.

[iwasish]

As I understand it, "transsexual" is an outdated term. Some people still use it to refer to transgendered persons who have had sexual reassignment surgery, but the more modern way of thinking of it is, there are transgendered persons who have had surgery, who plan to have surgery, who might have surgery some day, maybe, and who will never have surgery (either by choice or circumstance).

Thanks for the explanation. I still find it confusing though. Caitlyn declares she has always felt feminine or female, yet she also insists she was very heterosexual and attracted to women only sexually and performed happily in the sexual aspect of relationships as a man. Now she says she wants to "date" men in order to feel feminine. I also assume dating would include sex at some point. How will she feel feminine having what would essentially be gay sex with a male? And how does a straight man have sex with a trans woman (pre sex reassignment surgery) and not consider it as having gay male to male sex?

[Starchild]

The man she has sex with would have to believe that there is only male and female, but nothing else. But she could get lucky and find someone more progressive.

 

A lot of queer people reject the notion of binary genders. The belief, which I also hold, is that, like sexual orientation, gender exists on a spectrum. We are socially conditioned to believe there is only male and female, and you are one or the other. However, if gender is born out of a brain awash in soup of chemicals, there could be as many genders as there are individuals, if you could measure that finely. There is probably a standard chemical blend that, when it interacts with sex chromosomes, results in an individual whose gender and biology align. But throw off that blend a little and you start to get the wide variation of gender-biology fluidity we are starting to recognize.

 

As for whether or not Cait is attracted to men or women, whatever she may say or think, she has spent six decades conforming to societal expectations, and in that time she may have become used to sex with women, while at the same time suppressing an attraction to men. She may even be bisexual or pansexual, which will make it even more confusing for her to figure out.

 

Defying society while breaking through the mental barriers you've built up over most of your life can be pretty difficult to do, especially in just a few weeks. I expect her ideas of attraction are as much in transition as everything else in her life right now, and I'm kind of sad for her that she feels she might have to force it just for our entertainment or enlightenment.

[Kromm]

Thanks for the explanation. I still find it confusing though. Caitlyn declares she has always felt feminine or female, yet she also insists she was very heterosexual and attracted to women only sexually and performed happily in the sexual aspect of relationships as a man. Now she says she wants to "date" men in order to feel feminine. I also assume dating would include sex at some point. How will she feel feminine having what would essentially be gay sex with a male? And how does a straight man have sex with a trans woman (pre sex reassignment surgery) and not consider it as having gay male to male sex?

"Transsexual" suggests some false equivalence to "homosexual", and that's why I think they stopped using it. A Transgender's sexual orientation can vary, clearly, and the fact that Caitlyn Jenner appears as confused by the whole situation as us is a pretty good indicator that doing all of this at Warp Speed (compared to most people) and for the cameras is likely not a good idea--but other than the effects her very public example has on other people, it's really pretty much just her business. As for your last question, I don't see the relevance.  Hasn't Caitlyn said she'd do the last parts of the reassignment surgery (the er... lower half) before she dated a man?  And you don't even have the usual problems/debate over disclosure to a man that Caitlyn used to be male. The most sheltered Amazon Indian Tribes or African Pygmies probably know about that by now, muchless some random dude who might want to date a big-boobed rich 65 year old woman with cameras following her around everywhere. For the REST of the universe, with people besides Caitlyn Jenner? I suppose the question of disclosure is one that's going to get bandied about more and more in the coming years (and is not something to be dismissed lightly).  As will the labels for the act under such a relationship, but really the labels are probably less relevant to the people participating than to people trying to throw shade on such relationships.

Edited August 30, 2015 by Kromm

[editorgrrl]

I like Chandi (sp?)

She gets rough camera work tho...give her some of the ole vaseline lens that Cait and Candis get...its only fair.

Chandi was shot especially badly this episode. So shiny, with a huge zit on the side of her neck. (Or was it her face? I forget.)

I did like that wig she found at Patricia Field's, though.

[iwasish]

I suspect Chandi either refused the services of Caits glam squad or wasn't offered them. She seems kind of a "take me as I am or who needs you" kind of woman. As Lou Grant would say " she has spunk"

[millennium]

"I hate spunk."

Edited August 29, 2015 by millennium

[Cosmic Muffin]

A progressive man would be just fine with both the gender and genitals of his partner, without being confused about what it means for him. But would a progressive man want the rest of the Caitlyn package? She isn't very progressive herself, so I don't see her as compatible with a man who rises above worries about something he does with a trans woman making him seem gay. These men exist, but I don't see them sticking around for more than one date.

[Fostersmom]

I see the bigger issue as finding someone who is willing to put up with the 24/7 media attention a relationship with Caitlyn is guaranteed to entail. It's going to be hard to find a genuine relationship that's not just for media attention at this point in her life. Not to be mean, but she's a 65 year old vapid woman who thinks she's 22 and is self centered as all get out. None of that points to a nonfamewhorey relationship. 

[SmithW6079]

Because there appears to be confusion regarding my mod-note on snarking on Caitlyn's gait:

I know that GLAAD doesn't speak for you (it serves more as a blanket guide for most people), but those guidelines are the guidelines we are following. Under those guidelines, it is unacceptable to refer to any transgender person as not passing, not being feminine (for MTF) or not being masculine (for FTM), because there is no "real" way to look or act.

Therefore, that courtesy is indeed extended to Caitlyn Jenner, or Jenny Boylan, Candis Cayne, even Jazz Jennings or Sallydan Molnar from Becoming Us.

Because Caitlyn is a celebrity her appearance can certainly be snarked on, or disparaged, but her femininity can not, nor can her mannerisms. She is not getting any special consideration, merely the same as any other transgender person.

If she looks horrible in an outfit, or has dirty hair, or broken nails, or gross shoes, that's open. If she slouches, or displays poor table manners, or even trips in super high ridiculous boots, that's open.

We just frown snarking on her or any transgender person being feminine/masculine, that's all.

I hope this finally clears it up.

Thank you!

The constant harping on Jenner's femininity or that she is misogynistic and "thinks like a man" was troubling. Thank you.

I also think if Jenner's politics were more "acceptable," there would be more leeway given to her and her journey.

[Kromm]

The constant harping on Jenner's femininity or that she is misogynistic and "thinks like a man" was troubling. 

Are these really the same objection though?  The second seems like it might be it's own thing (totally apart from any talk about what it means to be female). I mean I've met misogynistic women.  Ones born female, I mean. It doesn't seem to directly correlate to how masculine or feminine someone seems, so it's not like they're automatically saying the other thing (and if they have been, then us curbing this admittedly disturbing polling on what people think is "feminine" doesn't mean the subject on Caitlyn possibly having some misogynistic tendencies is out the window with that). Unless I misunderstood 17WHEATTHINS post and it also instructed us to cease and desist on that as well--if it did, then so be it.

Edited August 31, 2015 by Kromm

[CousinAmy]

Caitlyn wants to be just a "normal woman like you see walking down the street." 

 

What does she mean by a "normal woman"? Will she ever see herself as normal? (As in, last week, "these girls... they're just soooo.... normal.")

 

I don't understand why Jennifer is pushing Caitlyn to define her sexual attractions when it's not something Caitlyn seems to be interested in right now. Unless the producers are the ones interested in having that conversation, and have scripted it. 

[iwasish]

I think Cait never grasped that this transition would label her as transgender. She naively thought she'd be considered a female. I'm thinking Cait didn't really put a lot of thought into things other than being able to get dressed and made up as a woman. Suddenly there's all this stuff she's forced to deal with and think about, her life of fancy fast cars, dune buggies, remote control helicopters and puttering around the golf course is a thing of the past. Now she's got to think about teen suicides and all kinds of depressing stuff. She's not really that deep intellectually.

[Kromm]

Caitlyn wants to be just a "normal woman like you see walking down the street." 

 

What does she mean by a "normal woman"? Will she ever see herself as normal? (As in, last week, "these girls... they're just soooo.... normal.")

 

I don't understand why Jennifer is pushing Caitlyn to define her sexual attractions when it's not something Caitlyn seems to be interested in right now. Unless the producers are the ones interested in having that conversation, and have scripted it. 

Her delusion isn't the "woman" part of course, it's the "normal".

 

First there's the weird logic that you HAVE to be normal. Yes, the true objective for most transgender is normalization, but I don't think they quite mean it in the same way Caitlyn Jenner does.  They mean "unremarkable"--as in the literal meaning of that word where it means "not needing to be remarked upon" (vs. the way it's used sometimes like it's an insult).

 

Caitlyn Jenner will never be unremarkable, because her lifestyle forbids it. Her GENDER status could achieve that unremarkable label, but never her as a human being. People are always going to stare and point at Caitlyn Jenner when she walks down the street. Never is she going to be able to quietly go without being commented on--except when she deliberately disguises herself. 

 

Does she get this?  I doubt it.  She wouldn't be on the I Must Be The Leader Train, and speeding through Transition at Olympic Speed if she really wanted to be "normal".  

Edited August 31, 2015 by Kromm

[millennium]

Caitlyn wants to be just a "normal woman like you see walking down the street." 

 

 

Does she mean normal like other 65-year-old women who pose for the cover of national magazines in bustiers and panties?   Normal like other 65-year-old women who wear miniskirts and fashions intended for women 30-40 years younger?   Normal like other 65-year-old women who buy themselves awards in the hopes of garnering worldwide attention and adoration?

 

She's a fucking hypocrite.   She milks the transgender angle when there's money to be made, then turns it into a sob story for sympathy.

 

If she wanted to be normal, she would have done her best to integrate and assimilate in mainstream society, and that means dressing the part, doing your best to appear as a woman of your own peer group, etc.

 

Sure, she's entitled to get dolled up like a strumpet and flaunt it for the world to see.

 

But don't go crying about how you can't be normal, bitch.

 

I am so tired of Caitlyn Jenner the Victim.    She has more resources at her disposal than any other transgender person has ever had in the history of the world, but it's still NOT ENOUGH.  

 

That's the truth of being transgender.  There's a LIMIT.   You can only go so far.   There are things you can never have, things you can never do, no matter how much money you have.

 

Someone ought to sit her the hell down and tell her she ought to be on her knees thanking God for what she has rather than whining on national TV about what she doesn't.

 

She's a disgusting human being.

Edited August 31, 2015 by millennium

[Foghorn Leghorn]

The previews that were shown last week for this episode showed Kris.  I suspect they edited out the Kris Jenner section and added in the Sergio piece instead.  Over the next few days, we may hear speculation as to why this was done.  I am not surprised to see that "idiot" was also edited out.  I get the feeling that this show is being edited based on audience reactions. 

 

Well of course we know Kris would need to be amply paid to "perform!"  Maybe it fell through or something!  

[iwasish]

Well of course we know Kris would need to be amply paid to "perform!"  Maybe it fell through or something!  

Nah, she cashed the check, summoned the courage and appears next week. After apparently a YEAR of not speaking. (except for Bruce's visit to her house, when she cried and messed up her makeup).     

[Cosmocrush]

Nah, she cashed the check, summoned the courage and appears next week. After apparently a YEAR of not speaking. (except for Bruce's visit to her house, when she cried and messed up her makeup).     

I know!  I have no idea when they filmed the last four or five episodes of KUWTK because I've only seen them on the endless repeats but I don't think it's been a YEAR since that scene.  I'd say five or six months. 

[HumblePi]

At the transgender girls luncheon, Zachary said "Basically we're living in a world that has no place for us." When she said that, the expression on Caitlyn's face went into a combination of shock, disbelief and stunned silence.

 

I truly believe that Caitlyn found her entire transition process to be extremely exciting. For her, it was a fun journey to where she always felt she should be. In other words, I feel that Caitlyn made a quantum leap from the beginning of the journey, directly to the end of the journey. There's a saying 'Life isn't about the destination, but rather the journey that gets us there'. I think Caitlyn was short-sighted as far as reaching her goal which is to transition to becoming a woman. I don't think that Caitlyn thought very far down the road about what life would become after the transition and after coming-out publicity. There will come a day when people have seen enough and their curiousity will be satisfied and they'll just say 'no more of Caitlyn, we've seen enough'. That will be the moment of truth for Cait. Will she feel that people she knew before have turned from her?  Will she feel uncomfortable having only friends that are transgender? I think that right now, Caitlyn is confident that her children will stick by her and be just as close or closer than they ever were before and I honestly don't see that happening. If that doesn't happen, how is Caitlyn Jenner going to be able to accept not only the pulling away of family but the pulling away of interest by pop culture and the press?

[Cosmocrush]

 

I truly believe that Caitlyn found her entire transition process to be extremely exciting. For her, it was a fun journey to where she always felt she should be. In other words, I feel that Caitlyn made a quantum leap from the beginning of the journey, directly to the end of the journey. There's a saying 'Life isn't about the destination, but rather the journey that gets us there'. I think Caitlyn was short-sighted as far as reaching her goal which is to transition to becoming a woman. I don't think that Caitlyn thought very far down the road about what life would become after the transition and after coming-out publicity. There will come a day when people have seen enough and their curiousity will be satisfied and they'll just say 'no more of Caitlyn, we've seen enough'. That will be the moment of truth for Cait. Will she feel that people she knew before have turned from her?  Will she feel uncomfortable having only friends that are transgender? I think that right now, Caitlyn is confident that her children will stick by her and be just as close or closer than they ever were before and I honestly don't see that happening. If that doesn't happen, how is Caitlyn Jenner going to be able to accept not only the pulling away of family but the pulling away of interest by pop culture and the press?

Okay, let's say that's true.  What should she have done instead?  Not come out with her story?  Not transitioned at all but continue to live a life she felt was a lie and never know what it's like to live in her truth so everyone would be more comfortable?        She lived that way for her entire life; at what point do people get to live their own life for themselves if not by retirement age?   How many times have we heard Caitlyn say she feels as though a huge weight has been lifted from her shoulders? 

 

Her kids (all of them) have gone on record as supporting their father's transition and reportedly the relationships with her four oldest are closer than they have been in decades.  Also, they are all grown and living their own lives.

 

She might lose a few friends,  although she's said she really didn't have many to begin with so she might just end up with more friends than before.  Besides, who needs friends like that?   And if the cameras go away, oh well.  That was bound to happen with the divorce anyway but there's always the speaker circuit.    

 

Isn't it better to live in your truth if you can and let the chips fall where they may than stay in the closet so  everything is easier and comfortable and feel like you're living a lie?  

 

[iwasish]

She already said though that if Kris had been more understanding and accepting and allowed Caitlyn to be a part of the household( though how this was supposed to be accomplished, I don't know) she wouldn't have taken her transition "this far"

I hate to even say it, but I agree with Kim in that it is unfair of her to even put any of that on Kris, no matter what she told Kris years ago about her gender issues.

My take on what Cait meant was that she wanted Caitlyn to be a recognized member of the house, that Kris would acknowledge her and even interact with her and that would have satisfied Cait enough to keep the status quo outside the home.

Did this openness extend to the kids and grandkids, or would Cait have to do the Tootsie shuffle if they arrived unexpectedly?

It's not really a well thought out plan...

[millennium]

At the transgender girls luncheon, Zachary said "Basically we're living in a world that has no place for us." When she said that, the expression on Caitlyn's face went into a combination of shock, disbelief and stunned silence.

 

What a stupid, self-pitying thing to say.   But it goes with the poor-little-rich-girl portrait of Caitlyn Jenner this show is trying to peddle.  

 

Here is a great big list of successful transgender women, most of whom you never heard of, and many of whom were kicking ass while Jenner was still coasting on the fumes of her Olympic medal, or long before:

 

http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TSsuccesses/TSgallery1.html

 

http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TSsuccesses/TSgallery2.html

 

http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TSsuccesses/TSgallery3.html

 

http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TSsuccesses/TSgallery4.html

 

And there are even more, if you do a little googling.

 

Bite me, Caitlyn.

Edited September 1, 2015 by millennium

[Kromm]

Wait. Let's at least indict Caitlyn on the things she actually said. Not the things that were merely said in her presence.

[millennium]

I was criticizing Zackary's statement, which I see as symptomatic of the Caitlyn-as-victim subtext in this show.   In the context of this show, We're living in a world that has no place for us translates to "We're living in a world that has no place for Caitlyn."  Boo fucking hoo.  Jenner's the one producing this crap, she's responsible for the tone of the program, so the buck stops with her. 

 

What a bunch of self-absorbed jerks, sitting around kvetching that the world has no place for them while they're on national TV.  Put down the wine glasses, get out of the strip bars, and go make a place for yourself.    Every one of the women on that list managed it all on their own, years ago, when being transgender was a hell of a lot more difficult than it is today.

Edited September 1, 2015 by millennium

[CousinAmy]

Apologies. Moved to the Dating thread.

Edited September 1, 2015 by CousinAmy

[chabelisaywow]

 

I'm tired of the clothes, hair and makeup stuff in I Am Cait.  We've seen enough of that, haven't we?

 

I was perturbed when the girls said Patricia Field styled SITC and Caitlyn's response was "that's big." As if that "legitimized" Patricia in her eyes.