S02.E10: Friendly Fire

[HalcyonDays]

Episode synopsis: Rachel is hard at work on a new, more efficient version of the cure while Alisha decodes a message found on a recovered cell phone.

[ottoDbusdriver]

That had to be the most disappointing of torpedo impacts.  Oh no, it knocked the sonar out for a while and messed up the lab, but that seemed to be about it.  Are they sure that all that lab equipment turned slide off the tables when they were making those hard turns ?

 

Yeah, about that whole bluetooth cell phone deal -- I don't think so.  Regardless of how much they crank up the signal strength, there would be no way for the individual cell phones to respond.  And how many people in the rest of the US would even have their cell phones on ? Where would they be getting power from ?

 

So, in the months since the outbreak, did the Ramseys commission this app for the cell phones as well ?  And why even bother with the animation ?

[bmoore4026]

Oh captain, my captain, get off your fucking high horse!  What Doctor Lady did was a good thing.

 

What?  Were you going to use The Virus Guy in your own little propaganda video, which would easily be explained away as being made under duress?

 

My guess the one who doctored the video was someone from Reddit.  Just a hunch.

 

Also, that "Deadman" app needs to become a real thing, only without the coded message sending.
 

[StatMom]

The "president" who was in bed with genocidal maniacs gets a pass, but not the doctor lady for doing an absolute good. WhatEVER.

[HalcyonDays]

Oh captain, my captain, get off your fucking high horse!  What Doctor Lady did was a good thing.

 

I completely agree. I get keeping order and trying to not devolve into the levels of "morality" that Ramsey and company seem to follow, but please. Please. Just end your self-righteousness.

 

I actually got into an argument with Mr. HD. Basically, I was like, so it's okay for the Nathan James to kill off the immunes, because they are considered the enemy (though some may not realize what they are doing - brainwashed), but Rachel kills of a guy who happily wandered around with an infected Teddy Bear to kill off some kids - OMG!! The horror! (Tex and the Marine knew about this)

 

Also, didn't the "President" contribute to a lot of the mayhem and killing by Ramsey's immunes - aka accessory to murder through ignorance, but hey, he's "the president', so we'll just ignore his role in any of that.

 

His point is that because the immunes are considered the enemy, they are enemies of the Navy in war therefore the killing is justified.

 

I get it, but in this case - pure semantics. She has a cure for the rest of humanity. To tell Dr. Scott the moment they will get to land, she will be turned over to the "authorities". Please. This is the prime way of making an enemy you do not want to have.

 

Complete self-righteous nonsense. Chandler, you are not the moral authority of the world nor have the right to pass judgement over others trying to save the world. Also, selfish much. You make me look bad in front of the crew, I condemn you.....please...

[bentley]

 

Oh captain, my captain, get off your fucking high horse!  What Doctor Lady did was a good thing.

 

It was really hard to be on the side of the "good guys" in this one when they were all acting so prissy and self-righteous, particularly the captain. Although I also wanted to smack Rachel for trying to justify and rationalize it in any way. You did it. Own it and hold your head high when you get your punishment. Don't act so surprised and upset that you're actually going to be punished. She had to know she was on a ship full of people who choose to live by a whole bunch of rules and codes, and she did herself no favors by not immediately copping to it, putting others under suspicion. 

Edited August 17, 2015 by bentley

[MrHufflepuff]

The "president" who was in bed with genocidal maniacs gets a pass, but not the doctor lady for doing an absolute good. WhatEVER.

 

Seriously, who cares that she killed Neils?  Just have President Genocide pardon her, like he offered to do to the immune who flipped on the phone stuff.  I really doubt a creepazoid like Neils would have been useful from a PR perspective anyway.

[ottoDbusdriver]

I still don't get why the Ramseys blew up all those vessels -- vessels with working power, and tons of supplies.  Was it simply for the PR value or just to deny it all to the Nathan James ?  The Ramseys must have already had control of all those vessels if they were able to place charges on all of them.  It really makes no sense.

 

And if the sub was hiding under the armada of ships, wouldn't all the sinking ships and falling debris hit the sub ?

[oakville]

What an exciting episode !. I can't believe that Chandler would turn over Dr. Scott to the authorities . That's ridiculous. What authorities are left to administer justice? Without her developing the cure, virtually everyone would be dead. She has now developed an easy way to spread the cure.

 

Chandler kept The President's suicide attempt a secret from the rest of the crew. Should he apologize to the crew for misleading them?  The President was part of the Immunes until a few weeks ago. Should Chandler arrest him for supporting the Immunes?

 

It's a war situation & the NJ commander has to realize that .

 

I don't like the "goody two shoes" approach by Chandler.

[bmoore4026]

I still don't get why the Ramseys blew up all those vessels -- vessels with working power, and tons of supplies.  Was it simply for the PR value or just to deny it all to the Nathan James ?  The Ramseys must have already had control of all those vessels if they were able to place charges on all of them.  It really makes no sense.

 

Crazy people don't need reasons do to what they do. 

[oakville]

Seriously, who cares that she killed Neils?  Just have President Genocide pardon her, like he offered to do to the immune who flipped on the phone stuff.  I really doubt a creepazoid like Neils would have been useful from a PR perspective anyway

 

Agreed. It's a bit silly to be worrying about a PR battle. I think most people would be happy to see the US Navy ship operating & spreading cure. Who would believe a bunch of Brits with a submarine?

[Raja]

Agreed. It's a bit silly to be worrying about a PR battle. I think most people would be happy to see the US Navy ship operating & spreading cure. Who would believe a bunch of Brits with a submarine?

Its like the kid said there are plenty of conspiracy theories and you don't see a sub, its hidden under the ocean you see a preacher saying that you have been chosen by God to survive. While a few may say we were just lucky in a quarantine zone others will cling to their new special status as God's chosen people.

[Bocephyss]

This Episode has me fairly pissed off. The NJ has killed countless people defending their ability to create a cure. This is only possible due to Dr. James and now being that she ended the CAUSE of the virus, she is a criminal? Stupid all around, Chandler excuses the ships behavior numerous times in the name of finding the cure. I not even going to comment on the "President". I will however make one observation. The submarine the Brits are using, the only missiles that sub can carry would not have the range to reach half of the destinations that the labs were in, just saying. Stick to what is feasible and right now this self righteous bullshit is making me rethink watching anymore episodes.

[FinnishViewer]

 

She has now developed an easy way to spread the cure

The debate here is that should the end justify the means? If you land on the 'Yes' side here, then where do you draw the line?

[crabbypants]

This is a classic ends vs means scenario.

Removing the murder aspect, she performed this procedure on Niels without his knowledge or consent. That should have gone against her principles as a doctor. Was there another way?

If the writers wanted to go over the top, she could have persuaded him to sacrifice himself. A more plausible way would be the donation of a lung. He would have survived, albeit in a disabled state, and his DNA could have been removed from the virus in vitro.

I think we see a new side of Dr. Scott here. Last episode she chose who would die. Now she's given herself the power to decide who lives. I wonder, how different is her course of action from Granderson's? Both used their talents to sacrifice people for the greater good.

[THM7]

I can overlook a few things but a Spearfish Torpedo hit would be pretty much the end.

[Mars477]

The debate here is that should the end justify the means? If you land on the 'Yes' side here, then where do you draw the line?

And talk about some bullshit moralizing.

 

Mind you, the self propagating cure is in itself a terrible idea.  You never want to release something into the environment that you can't control utterly.  But by rights the crew of the Nathan James should have shot Niels and pushed him over the side of the ship.

[MrHufflepuff]

The debate here is that should the end justify the means? If you land on the 'Yes' side here, then where do you draw the line?

 

I'd be okay with the ends and means here.  Niels' crimes would have almost certainly gotten him the death penalty if the US government was functional.  And, I'm not a fan of the death penalty, but I'm not going to lose sleep over the execution of someone who killed off billions of people.  Yeah, it'd be nice if he had a proper trial, but the reason he can't have a proper trial is because he collapsed the government that could give him one.

 

If it really were the case that Captain Morals needed Neils alive for strategic purposes, I'd understand him being pissed.  But that just seems so nonsensical to me.  And if he's upset because she killed him, meh, militaries kill people all the time.  That's just the nature of war.  And they make borderline calls and sometimes make bad decisions and all that stuff too.  I just find it highly implausible that anybody would actually give a rats-behind about Niels during war time.

 

Removing the murder aspect, she performed this procedure on Niels without his knowledge or consent. That should have gone against her principles as a doctor. Was there another way?

 

The medical consent angle might have been an interesting one to pursue, but they didn't really do that here.  There's a long, unfortunate history of medical experimentation on POWs, so I could see an ethical debate taking place about that, but the people who would probably be the ones engaged in that debate would be the docs (and maybe Bertrice).    We got one doc expressing minor disapproval over the DNA scissors, but then he told her to go for it, so that debate didn't go anywhere.

 

On another note, every time they say "DNA Scissors," I picture a pair of pinking shears.  I have no idea why.  So, now I pretend they're saying "DNA Pinking Shears."

Edited August 17, 2015 by MrHufflepuff

[Lonesome Rhodes]

All actions were done on a USN ship.  In a time of war.  She is subject to the UCMJ.  As I said before, a war criminal and/or a spy is subject to summary execution at any time under the Geneva Conventions and all other recognized law.  Beyond that, a presidential pardon, which was specifically introduced by TPTB in this ep, handles it.

 

The bigger farce is that we now have the same women who was screeching about the duty to save the enemy combatant who swallowed the whatever and was shot on the hospital ship, turning into an avenging angel who has a searing motivation from her childhood witness of the unnecessary death of her mother.  Yeah.  A woman like that does a 180 in less than three weeks.  What rot.

 

As we saw the first fireballs, my first thought was that the NJ was going to be made to be the transgressor.  Ding ding.  By the by, just how did the sub manage to outrun the NJ, without being detected, to N'awlins?  How many fish would she have been carrying?  How many would be left?  There is zero way she has had time to go pick up some more at a Royal Navy facility.

 

About the only thing I really liked was how Tex was alllll about badass Dr. Scott.  At least one character is staying true to his/herself.

[StatMom]

The debate here is that should the end justify the means? If you land on the 'Yes' side here, then where do you draw the line?

The line is definitely on the other side of "homicidal maniac." But more importantly for the show, the line has been crossed for less and it has been blithely ignored by the NJers.

[Latverian Diplomat]

Yeah, about that whole bluetooth cell phone deal -- I don't think so.  Regardless of how much they crank up the signal strength, there would be no way for the individual cell phones to respond.  And how many people in the rest of the US would even have their cell phones on ? Where would they be getting power from ?

 

So, in the months since the outbreak, did the Ramseys commission this app for the cell phones as well ?  And why even bother with the animation ?

Well, a directional antenna like a large parabolic dish might help pick up the phone signals from the ship. I don't know if that would work with bluetooth, but even very simple antenna mods can (illegally) extend the range of wifi signals pretty well. Overall, I would think this sort of mesh network would be extremely fragile, especially without reliable electricity at every step along the way.

 

No doubt, one of the immunes is a TV/Movie style super-hacker. And those folks always put in the hours to sign their work with animations, because TV.

 

 

Seriously, who cares that she killed Neils?  Just have President Genocide pardon her, like he offered to do to the immune who flipped on the phone stuff.  I really doubt a creepazoid like Neils would have been useful from a PR perspective anyway.

Just because you're a hero, doesn't mean you have a free pass to kill people now. I agree the PR thing was dumb because most of the world has no idea who this guy is or what he did. I think the writers were scrambling to come up with unforeseen consequences. Honestly, I thought the "good order and discipline" case was put forward in a much more compelling and convincing way. 

 

I have little doubt Rachel would receive leniency and/or a pardon from civilian authorities. But it would still be important to have a trial at some point as part of demonstrating that a working government exists (if one ever does). But in the meantime, there's very little to do other than treat her as cooperating prisoner with important work to do.

[Raja]

I agree there must be an accounting. As it is the crew thinks the guards were in on the hit and that is the first step of the Nathan James crew descending to where the Immune Death Cult submarine crew is.

Edited August 18, 2015 by Raja

[MissLucas]

Look Captain On A High Horse - if the HMS Benny Hill is able to outsmart you, it's time to rethink your priorities, dust off that copy of Sun Tzu you probably haven't opened since you've left Anapolis and do some heavy reading about knowing your enemy and all that stuff.

 

Because that's your job and not wasting resources and time on an investigation nobody wants and engaging on philosophical debates about morality with the guy who confessed on having killed his two daughters last week (not to mention breaking quarantine laws and thereby killing thousands more and siding with a death cult). You could have had a little chat with the Doctor (just like you did with wimpy President), get the truth out of her, thereby freeing your chief engineer on working on your enemies lines of communication, and then ask the highest civil authority - that by good luck and your own moral flexibility is on board and in office - for a pardon.

 

That might have freed your brain to think twice about heading towards a flotilla of civil ships with an evil scheming sub in tow (that has already started a major propaganda war against you btw.)

 

*whacks Chandler with annotated (extra-heavy) copy of Sun Tzu*

Edited August 17, 2015 by MissLucas

[Julie23]

Yes, what Dr. Scott did was morraly wrong, but Neils dying by his own virus was poetic justice. I wouldn't have minded all the high horsing if we had seen this happen with ANY OTHER transgression on this ship. Good point about the President - he killed his own children, and sided with a homicidal manialc. Where is his investigation  and punishment?> I still don't trust him, and he has been given aceess to the entire ship. What if he was a plant all along? When Chandler asked him if he knew anyone in the immunes group that could have set up some kind of array for the cell phones, he looked like he was lying when he said no.

[iMonrey]

I don't see how a "contagious" cure is better than the original plan to vaporize the cure. A contagious cure will require everyone who's been given the cure to spread out among the population all over the world. The original plan was to drop the cure over large populations by airplane. That sounds much more efficient to me.

 

Also, how fast does that shot work? Is it magic? Dr. Scott gave herself the injection and then immediately took the mouse out and breathed on it. And that worked? Wow. That cure got into her system, and made it all the way into her lungs within a fraction of a second. Convenient!

 

It also occurs to me that she's treading in dangerous territory with this experiment and basically doing the same thing Niels did - experimenting with altering the way the virus works by making a cure "contagious"  could potentially cause it to mutate into something far worse. I suppose we're meant to think she's so brilliant she's got this whole thing figured out but the nature of this pandemic has been a bit vague so it seems like once you have a cure that works you should let well enough alone.

Edited August 17, 2015 by iMonrey

[Artsda]

I wonder if someone on the Nathan James is the person who spliced the video and sent it with the bluetooth. The President seemed kind of shady during that last scene.

[millennium]

Does the Nathan James have a surgeon on board qualified to remove the stick from Chandler's ass?

 

In other news, there's too much of a disconnect between Sean Ramsey's alleged evil-geniusness and the buffoon who appears on the screen to taunt Chandler.

[xaxat]

Yes, Chandler was sanctimonious in his speech to Scott, and the "Niels could have been used for propaganda" made no sense, but I agree with his decision. And I think it is consistent with what we have seen previously.

 

The show rests on the premise that even in the apocalypse, the men and women of the US Navy will maintain their standards. Now, real life things like Guantanamo and civilian drone deaths may indicate otherwise, but this is summer entertainment. So I'll buy into the premise. Plus, I like the fact that we have Good Guys and there isn't a lot of moral ambiguity on the show. I get enough of that on every other show I watch.

 

Has the Nathan James killed people? Yes, but I'm pretty sure they could all be classified as enemy combatants. And when they have taken prisoners, all of them have been treated well. No torture. And I think they have done a good job of displaying how that kind of discipline is respected by all of the crew. (Burke, you are a far stronger man than I. Rules about no sex on the ship be damned. I would have been all over that.)

 

As for Dr. Scott's situation, she admitted that Niels did not have to die for her to create the cure. So she's a murder, and the crew thinks Scott killed him in order to get the cure. The captain needed to come down hard on her in order to show that the rules still matter. And even then, he did it within the options available to him.

 

The show does have issues. Props to the poster who came up with The Young Ones on a Sub. And the whole President thing was kind of weird. Like the writers just decided to get rid of the whole indoctrination thing as quickly as possible with the hope that we as viewers would forget. But I like the show and the crew of the Nathan James.

 

[MissLucas]

In theory I agree with Chandler - but the writing in this episode was so excruciatingly tone-deaf that at the end I was hoping for a mutiny. I appreciate what the writers were going for here crafting an episode based on the moral dilemma whether the end justifies the means or not. They wanted Chandler to pull a Picard but it back-fired on oh-so many levels. First there is the timing, we just had an episode where Chandler was definitely on team 'end-justifies-means', not only that but he also showed a hell of a lot more compassion towards the President than towards Rachel, who btw. told him that she would not work with Niels and yet he made her do it.

 

Then we have Chandler discussing the Doctor's misdeeds with Mr Mercy-Killing. And neither of these two guys seems to be concerned about judging Rachel in light of what went down between the two of them not a week ago. And to top it we have the President offering a presidential pardon to one of the Immunes - it doesn't matter whether it was just a ruse or not. It reminded the viewers that Chandler's theatrics about the murder of Niels were completely uneccessary - they had an easy solution at hand that would have allowed them to follow the law and show the woman who saved all their lifes some respect.

 

I don't have a problem with Chandler not willing to ignore a murder on his ship but I do have massive problems with the utter lack of compassion and common sense he displayed when going after Rachel (especially in light of last week's massive hand-holding for poor Mr President).

[thuganomics85]

Eh, in the end, I kind of had mixed feelings about the entire handling of Scott killing Niels.  On one hand, I do get why Chandler was upset and probably thought some punishment needed to happen.  The fact that people actually thought the entire leadership was in on it, could be very problematic and uncomfortable.  Also, I was kind of annoyed that Scott still tried to hide it for as long as she did: once they started having the other doctors and Beatrice as suspects, I would have respected Scott more if she put the stop to that and was like "No, I did it.  Leave them alone." about it.  And her admitting at the end she enjoyed his pain was an overkill: before, she was at least coming off logical, but she was basically admitting she did enjoy it, even if I can understand.

 

Still, there was a lot about it I didn't agree with Chandler about.  He was acting like she took out an innocent man or something, instead of the guy who was responsible for all of this, and enjoyed it.  And he also acted like there was nothing to gain, which was untrue.  If she had shot him and tossed him overboard, I could understand his anger more, but at the end of the day, she is using his lungs to stop the virus.  Even him admitting that reluctantly, would have been better.  And, yes, the fact that he not only gave Milcher passes for all his nefarious deeds, but helped him be President, just doesn't put him in a good light.  Makes him look like he's the judge and jury now, and decides whose sins can be absolved and whose cant.  And, finally, the whole idea that they will need Niels to counter the Ramsay's PR stint, is flimsy as hell.  Feels like the writers are grasping for straws.  In the end, no one comes out looking like a winner, but I somewhat back Scott more.  I'd find it hilarious if they do dock, and Milcher just pardons her before Chandler takes her to authorities.

 

I am kind of curious to see how everyone else reacts if the truth does come out.  I can see Jeter being more on Chandler's side, but maybe Slattery might respect it on some levels.  Tex though, already let us know what he thinks.  Killing Niels just made her more attractive to him!

 

Besides that, basically the Ramsays just fucked up the Nathan James entire New Orleans plan by blowing the fleet sky-high, so they are scrambling now to say the least.  Oh, and they were communicating through video game apps on the phones.  Never trust those video games!

 

Only thing left to add is that Burke apparently has iron willpower, to resist Ravit basically offering to have sex in the showers.  The hell, Burke?  Have you seen Inbar Lavi?  It would totally be worth it: especially considering how lax the punishment for Green and Foster was, once they were discovered.  At this point, Nathan James has way more shit to deal with.

Edited August 18, 2015 by thuganomics85

[AmyAmySue]

Also, it's Chandler's ship.  I feel like he needs to control everything that happens on it.  He makes the decisions, he continues to adhere to the strict Navy code (even thought it may not exist anymore), he unnecessarily goes out on missions when he could leave it to the people who are actually supposed to do it.  Heck, even the President defers to him.  I'm not surprised that he's irritated when Rachel does what she wants to do without consulting him. 

 

I think one of the issues with this whole story-line is the method of execution.  If the Niels had been stabbed to death, then fine do an inquiry.  It would have opened up (albeit in a Murder She Wrote kind of way) the list of suspects and put the perpetrator in doubt. But with Niels just dying and all 3 doctors agreeing, there was no real reason to continue with an investigation.

 

I also think that they were trying to play up the perception of control on Chandler's part with the reality of how his sailors live their lives.  Potential sex in the bathroom, Foster & Green, rumors of the "hit" on Niels all were trying to show how he really can't control every aspect of their lives.

[StatMom]

True. Even if Chandler had said to Scott something like:  hey, we get it, the guy was a major baddie who needed to die, but especially in this situation we have to maintain a sense of order and control. So next time you decide to bump someone off, let me in on it before fact, 'k?  I think I could have more easily handwaved the apparent discrepancy.

[Lonesome Rhodes]

Nothing prevented Chandler from having, at a minimum, a Captain's Mast, to allay morale issues with the crew.  Scott admits her deeds.  Then, Chandler makes clear that Niels was a war criminal/spy and the punishment is minimal and/or deferred.  He could also promise a full blown Court Martial to be held at a time and place subject to the exigencies of their situation.  Of course, that would mean a severe delay.   End of crew morale issues.

[Artsda]

Chandler I find in the right. Dr. Scott can't just go around killing people she chooses to. It was murder, what ever her reasons she let him die, she killed him and she admitted she didn't have to. She's on a US Navy ship that stands for something and Chandler just can't having people on his ship killing others for their own reasons.

[bentley]

 

I don't have a problem with Chandler not willing to ignore a murder on his ship but I do have massive problems with the utter lack of compassion and common sense he displayed when going after Rachel

 

Yep. Sometimes I think Eric Danes has been told to clench that jaw until it hurts and don't unlock it until we yell "Cut!". A little more emoting and a little less steely resolve would be good sometimes. I know he's capable of showing emotion, like last season when he found his family. But at no time did he look even a little conflicted when dealing with Rachel in that scene, and just a hint that this wasn't easy for him or that it hurt him to punish her would have gone a long way with me. If the closeup of his eyes at the end was supposed to convey some deeply felt emotion--well, all I saw was constipation.

[illuminaughty]

Desperate times call for desperate measures....

 

The entire season was full of good choices and believable content.  This one sucked.  I actually felt irritated.  lol  maybe that is what the producers wanted..

 

It was obvious the producer was out of touch.  Lets set the context...   Billions of people dead,  government's falling,  rouge factions running about, immediate friends and family of all involved deceased because of this person,  people in all out survival mode,  general global despair...   Billions dead because of this person.   

 

Then along comes a doctor who kills him and as a result,  the product is a cure.  Which by the way due to its method of transmission and propagation eliminates all the logistical challenges with any other methods considered.    Lets not forget the infrastructure was destroyed for any mass production of vaccines,  or the instruments to administer.   

 

This episode is the worse one of them all,   a total failure to capture the essence of what and where the mind set would be of all involved in this reality they have been projecting for the series...   No one would of cared one bit.  Protocol would of been mandatory by discretion.  

 

"I'm gonna turn you over for what you did"  wow...   When he busted into that blurb,  for the first time in both seasons I thought to my self,  "lame"...

 

on the flip side,  when they are able to hand her off to the authorities,  I'm sure she would have no worries about punishment,  they won't be as mentally challenged on the issue as the captain is I would hope.      She'll likely get high 5's.   If she makes it.

 

-g

 

 

 

[illuminaughty]

Chandler I find in the right. Dr. Scott can't just go around killing people she chooses to. It was murder, what ever her reasons she let him die, she killed him and she admitted she didn't have to. She's on a US Navy ship that stands for something and Chandler just can't having people on his ship killing others for their own reasons.

 

You are missing the context.    Billions are dead because of this guy.  It wasn't for her own reasons.   It was for survival of others she will never meet.   Millions will be saved.   There is no US Navy,  just hopes it'll exist again.    The world is fubar.   Context...  If it happened today when all is good in the world,   you are correct.  Not in the reality the series is based on.    The president could of said "Captain,  let this one rest",  and it would of been done with.   Its like a dual failure..  

-g

[xaxat]

Scott admitted that she had the information she needed for the cure, then she let him die. His death was not necessary for her research, it was vengeance.

Edited August 18, 2015 by xaxat

[illuminaughty]

Scott admitted that she had the information she needed for the cure, then she let him die. His death was not necessary for her research, it was vengeance.

Vengeance for billions.  I think that is ok.  Consider the reality of the situation the world is in and all the grief this man introduced.  I hate to go here,  but if some joe nobody was the one who ended up killing hitler without 'authorization' or any other of the world's tyrants,  would anyone care?  

 

Laws on murder were made up to address social concerns and morals in 'normal' times.  Not when the world is in a mode of survival.   The rules change.  By fact there was no government,  one could argue there were no laws to be enforced.  It should of been a discretionary call.   In my mind he should of not been treated for his gun shot wound and left to die.  As long as she still got a piece of him,  literally.  lol  

[Artsda]

You are missing the context.    Billions are dead because of this guy.  It wasn't for her own reasons.   It was for survival of others she will never meet.   Millions will be saved.   There is no US Navy,  just hopes it'll exist again.    The world is fubar.   Context...  If it happened today when all is good in the world,   you are correct.  Not in the reality the series is based on.    The president could of said "Captain,  let this one rest",  and it would of been done with.   Its like a dual failure..  

-g

On that ship there is a US Navy, to them the Navy and the oaths they took and choosing to serve still exists. They're still serving their country and honoring their rules because to them there is a code and the Navy.

 

If she wants to be a vigilante killer and do her own rules she can get off the ship and kill who she picks and chooses. Won't make her good, right, or any less a murderer. A person who kills a serial killer for vigilante justice is still a killer too. Because someones deserved it, doesn't make what she did right. It doesn't make her a better or more moral person than the killer she killed. 

 

She chose to murder him and let him die, It was not necessary for her cure and she admits it. Which makes her needing to be punished. Especially since everyone basically knows. Everyone on the ship is trying to abide by their laws and rules, beliefs and she gets to kill who she chooses? Chandler went easy on her by not locking her up and making her stay locked up.

Edited August 18, 2015 by Artsda

[illuminaughty]

On that ship there is a US Navy, to them the Navy and the oaths they took and choosing to serve still exists. They're still serving their country and honoring their rules because to them there is a code and the Navy.

 

If she wants to be a vigilante killer and do her own rules she can get off the ship and kill who she picks and chooses. Won't make her good, right, or any less a murderer. A person who kills a serial killer for vigilante justice is still a killer too. Because someones deserved it, doesn't make what she did right. It doesn't make her a better or more moral person than the killer she killed. 

 

She chose to murder him and let him die, It was not necessary for her cure and she admits it. Which makes her needing to be punished. Especially since everyone basically knows. Everyone on the ship is trying to abide by their laws and rules, beliefs and she gets to kill who she chooses? Chandler went easy on her by not locking her up and making her stay locked up.

 

I could be wrong but I think your opinion would change if you watched all around you die and you were in a place where people were killing each other over a bottle of water,  let alone someone who killed billions.    think about it...   sure she is a murderer,   but you can call many cops and military murders too.  no law existed,  everything was the wild west again...     put your self on set,  think about it a bit and I'm sure you would agree she doesn't deserve the punishment you think she does.  The good out weighs the bad and that is what we should be considering.   Yes guilty of murder,  but not deserving of punishment.   If I kill someone breaking into my house at night because I fear for my life,  I'm a murderer too, but I'll not likely see any sort of punishment.    He still had the potential to kill millions more..    I'm not sure how anyone could think she needs to be punished..   She is a hero.

 

I get the duty and honor thing,  but he is a captain for a reason, for his ability to make good choices.    When the world is on its knees and all hierarchy and chain of commandment is destroyed,  the things you learned from years of honor and adherence to policy,  would become a guideline.  No one is going to hold the captain or the president accountable for any decision they made during these times of desperation.    

Edited August 18, 2015 by illuminaughty

[oakville]

I wonder how Chandler would react if the crew found out that he lied to them about the President killing his own kids, breaking the quarantine rules by allowing his infected son into the zone to kill others etc & trying to commit suicide on the NJ ?. The crew would lose respect for him. How does Chandler justify keeping quiet for the President (who may still be on the immune's side) but putting Dr Scott under house arrest?

[harlock328]

I just want to scream how they're handling ASW (Anti Sub warfare).  Granted it's a TV show but that sub would have been sunk ages ago by the destroyer's helicopter.  Main weapon of the destroyer is the heli's ability to use sonar buoys (or sonar dipping if it's older heli) miles away from destroyer as to not risk the ship.  The ship coordinates the hunt.  But yet the show doesn't have the ship using the heli for the role it was designed.  I get they want to be dramatic but it's really annoying.  

[Human]

Chandler I find in the right. Dr. Scott can't just go around killing people she chooses to. It was murder, what ever her reasons she let him die, she killed him and she admitted she didn't have to. She's on a US Navy ship that stands for something and Chandler just can't having people on his ship killing others for their own reasons.

I agree.  Much as it felt like a fist bump moment to see Neils get what he deserved, murder still can't be given a free pass without jeopardizing order.  I'm sure Dr. Scott will probably get off lightly (that is, only if her trial is on the ship, she'd be screwed with a civilian court right now), but they still need to show that murder suspects will stand trial and not be given extra kit kat rations.

 

I also do not accept the vengeance appeal.  Without Neils, the corroborating evidence that he joyfully caused the deaths of billions is barely believable.  What people are going to see is that death and destruction seems to follow the Nathan James.  Doesn't matter if the NJ is the one doing the saving and aiding, perception is going to be a biggie.  The submarine has also beat them to the propaganda campaign.  They've been warning that the NJ is spreading the virus on unsuspecting victims by claiming they have the cure, and this is hard to disprove when there are major outbreaks where the NJ has been.  Then there is this video showing the NJ firing first on civilian ships and that huge civilian fleet now lying at the bottom of the delta.  I mean, the fake evidence the british have racked up against the NJ is enough that it's almost hard to be skeptical.  Dr. Scott saying she killing Neils because she wanted to avenge all the death is looking incredibly unbelievable when viewed alongside this other stuff.  So, killing Neils for vengeance looks like nothing but just another power play from the NJ.  

 

I get that there is some hypocrisy with Chandler and the Prez, but that's just how things go.  It's all about perception and how things are presented, and who controls the presentation.  The people on the NJ believe they rescued the president because they have no reason to believe otherwise and the things the Prez did before coming on the ship is top secret.  Dr. Scott's situation is different.  It's not fair, but things rarely are.  

[MissLucas]

I don't think we'll ever see Dr. Scott handed over to any civilian authorities. If the NJ even manages to find still functioning (or newly functioning) civilian authorities that are not part of the immune network and who are willing to go along with a trial the charges will be shredded in court even if her laywer never made it beyond the first semester of law school. Few people have been under more pressure and stress on the NJ than Dr Scott, she's got mitigating circumstances in abundance even if there's no doubt that the she murdered Niels.

 

Since this is not a law show someone will probably sooner or later rememver that they can deal with the whole affair on ship ending with that presidential pardon they dropped this episode. Chandler can run around with a 'I'm so disappointed in all of you'-look for a while, the Doctor can focus on her work (which is just about saving the not-immune survivors of humanity) and the NJ might come up with a plan to deal with HMS Benny Hill for good and winning back hearts and minds.

[Raja]

I just want to scream how they're handling ASW (Anti Sub warfare).  Granted it's a TV show but that sub would have been sunk ages ago by the destroyer's helicopter.  Main weapon of the destroyer is the heli's ability to use sonar buoys (or sonar dipping if it's older heli) miles away from destroyer as to not risk the ship.  The ship coordinates the hunt.  But yet the show doesn't have the ship using the heli for the role it was designed.  I get they want to be dramatic but it's really annoying.  

I think it is because they want the ship to be the star and not the aviator which tends. It seems as if they only use their Seahawk as a long range shuttle and haven't identified any  pilots. There are restrictions since it can't be up in the air 24/7

[xaxat]

You know what the craziest thing about this episode is?

 

We got into a serious philosophical debate over a freaking Michael Bay production!

[HalcyonDays]

I wonder how Chandler would react if the crew found out that he lied to them about the President killing his own kids, breaking the quarantine rules by allowing his infected son into the zone to kill others etc & trying to commit suicide on the NJ ?. The crew would lose respect for him. How does Chandler justify keeping quiet for the President (who may still be on the immune's side) but putting Dr Scott under house arrest?

 

That was what I actually though, but forgot that the Pres killed his kids until this episode. Why is this given a pass? Because Chandler and co got screwed by The Young SubOnes, and now he is pissed he can't use Niels. And what if Niels was still alive, and used as a "propaganda tool" or whatever it was, and gets killed in the process, is that okay?

 

If he wants to be all high and mighty then, fine, but Chandler wants to act this way, he'd better apply that 100% of the time. Therefore, the President doesn't get a pass either. He committed murder, just like Rachel did. One to spare his kids suffering, one to ensure 100's, if not thousands or more people didn't get infected and die from the virus.

 

It's the hypocrisy that bothers me.

 

I don't think we'll ever see Dr. Scott handed over to any civilian authorities.

 

Now that we know there is a season 3, I think we will. Then some plot will take place where the "authorities" are baddies or something and somehow the NJ has to come in and rescue her. Cue drama, apologies, forgiveness and deaths that will be easily justified by Chandler.

[Bishop]

The comparisons I'm reading here aren't the same at all. The President didn't murder anyone knowingly, and his children were already dying. If he could have saved them he would have done it. It's not the same at all. Michener was devastated with what he did. Rachel wasn't. She deliberately killed someone and then gloated about it. Why did she have to do that? When she confessed to Chandler, she flat out told him that she didn't need to kill him to get what she needed, but she wanted to kill him. Did you see Chandler's reaction? It was like "Why did you have to share that knowledge with me?" She put him in a horrible position. Did Neil deserve to die? Absolutely, but it seems like people are overlooking half the episode. When word got out about the murder, the crew suspected Rachel but felt the officers were covering it up and playing elitist. How could Chandler be okay with that and Maintain order and the respect of his crew? Special rules for special people? Rachel didn't even help the captain to plead her case by saying she had an emotional break - something, anything. Instead she flat out admits cold-blooded murder and that she wished he had suffered more. I don't think Chandler was being self-righteous. He has to maintain order and respect on that ship because they are the only point of order right now. The other point to be made is that Chandler needed Neils alive in order to give a "face" to the virus - a bad guy of sorts to the public, and Rachel destroyed that too.

I hate that Rachel and Chandler are at odds, but she really didn't help him by admitting she was happy to kill Neils. Chandler can't afford to allow the crew to think he plays favorites and that its okay to murder unarmed people just because you have a good reason. Once he sets that precedent, it's the beginning of the end. Other crew members can then "justify" their future killings and remind the captain that he gave Rachel a pass.

Edited August 18, 2015 by Bishop

[MissLucas]

The comparisons I'm reading here aren't the same at all. The President didn't murder anyone knowingly, and his children were already dying. If he could have saved them he would have done it. It's not the same at all. Michener was devastated with what he did. Rachel wasn't.

That's an ethical argument but legally the President is still guilty of murder. (Mitigating circumstances be damned as they don't seem to apply to Doctor Scott either - just because she confessed to cold-blooded murder doesn't mean that she wasn't just cracking under all the pressure and that lead to her murdering Niels.) And since Chandler was one week ready to enter a grey area for the greater good by hiding the contents of the President's confession he can't go all high and mighty the very next week. At least not without some conflict that we never got to see.

 

A lot of problems with that episode are not based on the underlying moral dilemma but how it was written and acted. Chandler was way more understanding of the President than of Dr Scott - and that was even before he talked to her. He never showed the slightes sign of inner turmoil or conflict or even a smidgen of understanding - he was a stickler to the letter of the law without any traces of humanity. Just imagine how Picard would have handled this scenario and it's easy to see why people struggle so much with this episode.