S03.E10: ...And The Woman Clothed In Sun

[Bruinsfan]

I disagree. His invitations to Reba have had the creepy turned up to 11, our first glimpse of him in public had him glaring murderously off into space and making claw hands at his workplace cafeteria, and he looked like he was in the Brooklyn Museum to enact a hit contract rather than view a painting.

 

Have to agree to disagree, because this D is way more sympathetic than the creep in Manhunter. That dude made my skin crawl.

The Manhunter Dolarhyde looked creepier (Armitage is, after all, a very classically handsome actor whereas Tom Noonan... is not), but he had a gentler manner in public and a more softspoken, hesitant delivery rather than choking out each word in gravel voice like the lovechild of Christian Bale's Batman and William Shatner.

 

Every time they show Hannibal using those pencils, I think it seems awfully risky to give him anything like that. Like, fine, give him something to draw with, but maybe some little nubbin size pencils, rather than stabbing length pencils. 

Vine charcoal would be the perfect art instrument; the only way you could harm someone with that is to throw the powder it crumbles into in their faces and hope they get black lung disease twenty years down the line.

[Crossbow]

Laurence Fishburne is white? :-O

 

LOL, Okay, he's blackish.

 

(C WUT I DID THER?)

Edited August 11, 2015 by Crossbow

[margol29]

 

Aug 8 2015. 10:21 pm

Huh. I thought the patient that Bedelia killed had been triggered to swallow his own tongue by whatever HANNIBAL did during the phototherapy sessions. He placed some kind of buried trigger like with Anna Chlumsky's character.

 

These were my thoughts, also. When the patient talks about trying to swallow his tonge to Bedelia then she uses a trigger sentence. It was something like "Imagine you are walking down a street..." Then Quinto starts choking. I thought he was swallowing his tonge because of the trigger. Then Bedilia trys to save him by shoving her hand down his throat to grab his tonge. I don't really know how something like swallowing your tonge works... I guess I was wrong.

 

I have been a fan of Hannible since the Manhunter movie came out many, many years ago and I always thought that D eats the painting to help him to become the red dragon faster. I am glad to read all these other comments to see the way others view this.

[Crossbow]

These were my thoughts, also. When the patient talks about trying to swallow his tonge to Bedelia then she uses a trigger sentence. It was something like "Imagine you are walking down a street..." Then Quinto starts choking. I thought he was swallowing his tonge because of the trigger. Then Bedilia trys to save him by shoving her hand down his throat to grab his tonge. I don't really know how something like swallowing your tonge works... I guess I was wrong.

 

I have been a fan of Hannible since the Manhunter movie came out many, many years ago and I always thought that D eats the painting to help him to become the red dragon faster. I am glad to read all these other comments to see the way others view this.

 

You actually can't swallow or choke on your own tongue. I think Harris just didn't know that when he wrote that scene in the books.

https://sciencebasedlife.wordpress.com/2011/06/27/its-impossible-to-swallow-your-tongue/

 

I'm still re-reading Red Dragon, but my feeling is still that he ate the painting to make it part of himself. I originally thought it was so he would finish becoming the Red Dragon, but now I think he believes maybe he can absorb the Red Dragon rather than be consumed by it. I need to finish the book still.

Edited August 11, 2015 by Crossbow

[blixie]

 

but now I think he believes maybe he can absorb the Red Dragon rather than be consumed by it.

Yeah I think he feels like his "becoming" the Red Dragon (kiling/murdering families) isn't something he's deciding but being compelled to do by outside forces and his eating the painting his him controlling the Dragon, and deciding at least for and of the moment not to kill Reba and succumb to being The Monster. 

 

Despite having read the book many times, and seeing the various versions of Red Dragon, this is the first time I've made a connection between Dolarhyde and Frankenstein, in terms of a monster acting out due to how he thinks he's perceived/ostracized and how he's teased with a reprieve via his experienced with someone who can't "see" his deformities either physical or psychological. It's adding another layer of enjoyment to the story for me this time. 

[AstaCharles]

Despite having read the book many times, and seeing the various versions of Red Dragon, this is the first time I've made a connection between Dolarhyde and Frankenstein, in terms of a monster acting out due to how he thinks he's perceived/ostracized and how he's teased with a reprieve via his experienced with someone who can't "see" his deformities either physical or psychological. It's adding another layer of enjoyment to the story for me this time.

Actually, I think of Dolarhyde as the Wolfman because operates on the lunar cycle which I think is from the book and the references of how blood appears black in the moonlight.The Wolfman was a tragic monster, my favorite of the Universal movie monsters. I see Will as Frankenstein. I read somewhere that Harris envisioned him like a Frankenstein monster when discussing the subject of a possible Graham sequel novel. I can't be certain if that article exists but I'm wondering if Fuller is heading there since there is a big scar across Will's head. Hannibal always felt like a Dracula to me, ever since the Hannibal books. I called him the Dracula of serial killers. He's got the aristocratic charm, tragic past, and creepy castle. Just needs a cape.

[Captanne]

Also, he's the Tooth Fairy so I consider Wolfman and/or Dracula appropriate for their unique teeth.  Since a Dracula comparison is perfect for Hannibal (all the way to the dark, dank Eastern European Castle), that leaves Wolfman on a lunar cycle for a Dolarhyde comparison.  Nice.  

 

I'm interested -- when we're comparing characters to Frankenstein are we differentiating between the Monster and the Doctor?

[greenbean]

The lunar connection definitely gave me a wolf vibe.

[Texasmom1970]

I loved the scene with Will and Bedelia snaking at each other. It was like they were having a pissing contest about who Hannibal loves more!

A shallow side note, I was coveting the emerald blouse Gillian was wearing in her therapy session/conversation with Will.

[blixie]

 

when we're comparing characters to Frankenstein

 

I was alluding the Monster, but I don't think Frankenstein is the only classic monster Dolarhyde evokes, again the Reba bit of the thing is straight out of Shelley's book (the most powerful and important sequence in the story), but certainly the lunar cycle indicates the Wolfman and the teeth a vampire or Dracula nod. 

[MisterGlass]

Hannibal is the Dr. Frankenstein with lots of monsters to his credit.  He's also Dracula-like because he is himself a predator.  (Mads in a cape would be hilarious.) Will is kind of like the Invisible Man, slipping into all situations.

 

As far as poor Neal, Hannibal probably suspected that Bedelia's instincts are not altruistic and he wanted to test them.  He singled out Neal as a subject because Neal, a normal, would never have made a proper monster.  He programmed him to become vulnerable under certain circumstances; margol29 suggested it was when Bedelia used a certain phrase.  If that was a standard therapy scenario for her, and Hannibal knew it, he would have assumed she would use it on Neal.  So Hannibal sent her a patient programmed to turn into a wounded bird on her watch, and waited to see if she would act on her instinct.  She did, and he helped her cover it up with a story of an attack because he got the reaction he wanted.

 

When Reba describes what their coworkers say about Francis, there are comments about his neatness and self-consciousness, but not about odd behavior.  She might not have mentioned it if something had been said, but I think we're seeing Francis's viewpoint most of the time, and his inner thoughts manifest clearly as a result.

 

ETA: Janice Poon's blog says it was not a living tiger.

Edited August 12, 2015 by MisterGlass

[jeansheridan]

I am not getting a sense of tragedy from this Francis. And I am not worried enough for Reba. I want to worry about Molly but she needs to get back on screen. There is time to do all of this.

I like Will as the Invisible Man. Is that character murderous in the novel? I have never read HG Wells. I picture him as a detective, solving crimes.

Hannibal uses butterfly or moth metaphors when describing Will's transformation. Must say Francis has a slightly more dramatic mode of change.

Edited August 12, 2015 by jeansheridan

[Crossbow]

Neal as a test for Bedelia is an interesting idea. I still don't know why she had to cover it up, since it was clearly an accident.

[supposebly]

I would think an arm all the way to the stomach (at least if I interpreted the CSI cam correctly) is hard to explain as an accident. That must leave some traces.

 

I finally caught up and I have been reading your interesting discussions. Very insightful, thank you!

 

Hannibal has created a net of relationships, manipulations and dependencies that none of the characters can really escape. Jack, maybe but none of the others. He is terribly pragmatic and I that's how he can be rid of Hannibal. I thought that if Will forgave Hannibal, he would be free of him but I think I need to reassess that thought. Even if he really does, he still misses him. Forgiveness might even be the wrong way to get rid of Hannibal since in Hannibal's mind, he didn't do anything wrong. He just....got back at Will. And in a way, Will acknowledges that he betrayed Hannibal. So messed up.

 

Neal kinda stayed with me. He seemed so much the voice of reason among them all. They are all clouded by Hannibal's manipulations, living in their own heads, their own hang-ups, desires.

In a way, Bedelia was right, she saved him from getting further manipulated by killing him. Of course, she could only do so by Hannibal enabling it. He is clearly the devil. What disturbed me was that I understand the impulse of crushing a wounded bird instead of picking it up and finding a vet (I hate birds, it's almost a phobia and I wouldn't want to touch one) but there is a long way between a bird and a human being.

He's like the character in old plays that explains it all at the end with one or two sentences: Something is wrong with Hannibal. And something is wrong with Bedelia!

 

I'm not terribly excited about Dollarhyde. He seems like a lot of serial killers I have seen before. I've never read the books or saw any of the movies, so I don't know where this is going. Still, Richard Armitage is doing a good job.

[Crossbow]

I'm not terribly excited about Dollarhyde. He seems like a lot of serial killers I have seen before. I've never read the books or saw any of the movies, so I don't know where this is going. Still, Richard Armitage is doing a good job.

 

The TV show hasn't gone into much detail about his killings. They are pretty bizarre, but I am not sure what they will be able to do on network TV. IMHO his history with his grandmother's teeth is pretty bizarre too.

[Snookums]

Neal as a test for Bedelia is an interesting idea. I still don't know why she had to cover it up, since it was clearly an accident.

 

 

Survival. It's not that the police weren't convinced it was an accident, but that it was Hannibal watching to see if she would follow his instruction. He's singled her out and she had to decide how, and for how long, she wanted to live. Bedelia Du Marier has Abigail beat by a country mile in the Live Another Day Decathalon--because she's as remote, chilled and twisted as any exotic meat in Lector's larder, she could take every benzo available to her perfectly manicured fingers and listen to him obfuscate and minuet around his horrible deeds as his shrink (and her only patient; Hannibal's got to be an exotic orchid at all times.) She could vanish without trace while the getting was good (but not before showing up at Hannibal's office, alone, and telling him she was leaving--quite a risky bet but one she knew would impress him). 

 

She can reappear when it's clear either the FBI or Hannibal would hunt her down eventually, and jet off to Italy when that seemed expedient, in order to be not Hannibal's friend that he yearned to keep close, like Will Graham so unwisely chose, but an enemy he keeps even closer--his soothsayer, his Delphic oracle, his dance partner who let him see just enough terror and command just enough action to keep those elegant hands off her throat. And when the European circle closed, she knew exactly how to leave--with a challenge and a reminder that he simply can't take the time to kill and eat her properly, and doing things properly is all he has left.

 

Now, three years later, she gives composed and graceful lectures and can meet Will head on in a Exes Face Off, with only the bobbing of her perfect blonde head betraying the turmoil within.

[Bruinsfan]

ETA: Janice Poon's blog says it was not a living tiger.

Vindication!

 

I was amazed watching the commentary on Red Dragon that their tiger was not only real, it was also unsedated while lying on the table being petted since that wouldn't be acceptable to do for a film's benefit. Emily Watson is a brave, brave woman. (Though apparently all the cast and crew in the room except Ralph Fiennes would spring back every time the tiger moved, not that I can blame them.)

[Crossbow]

Survival. It's not that the police weren't convinced it was an accident, but that it was Hannibal watching to see if she would follow his instruction. He's singled her out and she had to decide how, and for how long, she wanted to live.

 

But it happened years before she realized he was dangerous.

[MisterGlass]

She at least knew that Hannibal knew that she was not innocent in Neal's death.  And when Neal asked her why she wouldn't report Hannibal for him, she says "I am not firmly convinced it would be in your best interest."  That might be her doubting him or it might be her suggesting that she thinks there is something sinister behind the person suit she described Hannibal as wearing.

 

 

I was amazed watching the commentary on Red Dragon that their tiger was not only real, it was also unsedated while lying on the table being petted since that wouldn't be acceptable to do for a film's benefit. Emily Watson is a brave, brave woman.

 

I'm glad they would not sedate an animal for a scene, but wow, that must have been intense.

 

 

I like Will as the Invisible Man. Is that character murderous in the novel? I have never read HG Wells. I picture him as a detective, solving crimes.

 

I'm not sure if spoiler coverage is required for a 118 year old book, but just in case

yes, the invisible man killed at least one person, and wanted to terrorize and control the country for his own ends. Film versions of the story suggest that something about becoming invisible made him crazy, either due to the drugs required or due to the corruption of the power that he attained through invisibility. However, the book reads to me as though he was a horrible person before he was invisible, and afterward he felt free to be as horrible as he liked.

  The 1933 film version has some interesting special effects for the time.

 

Will is quite a different person.

[Nanrad]

Erm...I'm not expert at botox, but I don't think Gillian Anderson has received any shots. 

 

*the Bedelia responses will all be addressed at once.

Huh. I thought the patient that Bedelia killed had been triggered to swallow his own tongue by whatever HANNIBAL did during the phototherapy sessions. He placed some kind of buried trigger like with Anna Chlumsky's character. When the patient began choking, Bedelia went with crushing instead of saving him. Sad and cruel death for one of the few people to see through Hannibal and Bedelia's people suits to know something was up. He just underestimated just how messed up they were.

 

Funny, I had the opposite reaction! We'd been told so little about this patient and this incident that we took Bedelia's word that he attacked her (and many of us equated him with Miggs, the only other character in Harris canon who swallowed his own tongue, lending to the idea that he was some violent nutjob). Now, as she is discussing Hannibal's tactics with Will, we see just how cunningly they were used on her. Hannibal sent her that patient, but not to attack her so that she would kill him in self-defence. Rather he was "progammed" to need help, and in trying to help him, she killed him. I'm not even convinced that it was intentional on her part, my read is that she really was trying to save his life, and things went horribly wrong. Hannibal's "alchemy of lies and truth" convinced her that she had killed him because she's a natural murderer and needed to side with Hannibal to avoid discovery, but along the way continued to unravel the layers of his manipulations until she could see how she'd been set up, which gave her the insight and skill to travel with him and avoid becoming dinner! And to see just how entangled Will has become in Hannibal's manipulations so she can warn him against being played the same way she was (trying to save/protect something vulnerable, and falling into a trap). So much of her character, relationship with Hannibal, and role on the show makes  A LOT more sense now! And the revelation that she didn't kill a psycho in self-defense, but rather an innocent man she should have been saving is a pretty huge bombshell!

 

So excited to see how the rest of the season plays out! This is the most I have ever enjoyed the Red Dragon story!

 

This is where Bedelia differs from Hannibal's other acolytes, and she's working 24-7 to prove it. Where others fled (Will) or devoted their lives to guard duty (Alana) or tried to become a perfect daughter (Abigail), Bedelia takes things in a almost Chilton-esque direction, but with class and style rather then crassness. She doesn't write a book, she gives exclusive lectures that are applauded. She doesn't visit Hannibal, she waits for his other boyfriend to come to her for a mutual claw-sharpening session. She may have understood Hannibal and felt helpless before his manipulations, but rather then become the scarred monster she's the untouched Bride--the one who danced with him, bathed in front of him, doctored his wounds, and got away clean. Hiding never made anybody safe from Hannibal Lector.

 

Her scene with Quinto underlines this. She understands what Hannibal's done to him (inducing seizure states with phototherapy and general head-fuckings-with) and because she understands Hannibal she just sits there and blandly undermines the guy because she's afraid of what will happen if she tries to actively intervene. She knows once Lector gets his claws in a person, that person is done for, and her empathy tells her that crushing is the quickest, easiest way.

 

When Quinto works himself into the seizure, she snaps to, as a doctor, and tries to help him by clearing his tongue out of his airway, but again, her survival instinct kicks in and--crush. Hannibal's "help" afterwards was a manipulation both ways--by accepting his intervention she's only confirming what they both knew all along: that she knows too much to be trusted to be a victim.  

 

Bedelia is basically Hannibal's Irene Adler--the equal who got away. 

 

At this point we have moved into remake of Manhunter/Red Dragon territory. I will see this thru, because I need my Mads fix. But I am glad it didn't get renewed, it has no where to go as long the rights to Clarice are hung up.

 

Why are the rights on her hung up, but not Hannibal?

I have assumed for a while that Bedelia's demeanor and precise enunciation are a coping mechanism she uses both for her profession in general and her life post-Hannibal. She seems to very deliberately project a completely flat affect, precisely because doing so means nobody (including Hannibal) can discern what her actual emotional/psychological responses are to any given situation. When she remarked to Will about his passion with Hannibal, that remark seemed to point directly to the contrast between her and Will; she does not display any passion, and it's very likely that seeming dispassionate kept her alive. It would be obvious to Hannibal during their time together that she wasn't going to panic and call the cops, etc. She seemed to have a more normal affect in her scenes with Zachary Quinto, which again implies to me that after that event, she chose to maintain the icy calm as a protective shield. FWIW, I've known a few psychiatrists socially who also use the flat affect technique in their therapy sessions; doing so prevents the patients from feeling that the psychiatrist is horrified/shocked/disapproving of what the patient says, and there are also patients who go into those sessions trying to provoke an emotional response from the psychiatrist. Using the completely detached, cold demeanor circumvents that process and can get the patient to stop playing that particular game.

 

I also thought that Quinto's seizure/episode was something that Hannibal had programmed him for, as a test for Bedelia. She did at first seem like she was trying to help him; she said something about needing to clear an airway, IIRC. But whether she accidentally or intentionally contributed to Quinto's death is to me irrelevant; she would have realized instantly that Hannibal had set her up. She knows herself well enough to know that she does have the impulse to crush, but she also seems to keep that impulse in check. In many ways, she's probably safer if Hannibal regards her as a fellow sociopath; as long as he finds her interesting, he's less likely to kill her. Nor do I blame her for using her experiences to get paid for presentations; if I had Hannibal even slightly interested in me, I'd be putting together all the cash I could to prepare numerous fake identities and contingency plans for his inevitable escape from prison.

 

I freaking love Anderson's line deliveries. I disagree that it's lack of emotion; it reads to me like every possible emotion turned up to eleven, and then just....stoppered. Like if she breathes too deeply or loudly she'll shatter. She utters each line as if she's contemplating the weight of every word just before it leaves her lips, so she can contain the nuclear winter.

 

Initially I read some of the posts first, and then watched the episode as I read, and then read the rest afterwards. lol. Here's my thoughts on Bedelia and her actions (sorry for the length):

 

I'll start by saying that, I too, love Bedelia's delivery and that's because I believe it's intentional. She's detached, but every word carries heavy significance and has a place. She careful and strategic about what she says. Bedelia is fascinating because she knows what Hannibal is and rather than do the "good" or "right" thing, she'd rather survive, which is what she has over many of Hannibal's former victims. Hannibal isn't your average psycho and doing the good/right thing only gets you dead or set up to look like a killer. Bedelia chose to live, which I don't think many of us can fault her for.

 

Despite whatever truth Bedelia knows about her former patient, she's not going to admit to killing him, especially when it's Hannibal involved. And, to be honest, I do believe that Hannibal played a role in her actions. There was no reason for her to attempt to help or even say that she as trying to help him if her intentions were to kill him unless she suddenly changed her mind. Bedelia had a professional relationship with Hannibal prior to that point and we don't know what he's said to her exactly regarding that patient. I do believe that the patient was sent to test Bedelia, especially when you reference the first season when she told Hannibal she was only his therapist because he wouldn't let her retire. She also said that Hannibal has a way of conditioning to act in a way that has you believing it was due to your own violation. 

 

During her time in Italy, Bedelia didn't seem to be enjoying herself, she seem to be biding her time and going with the flow until she could leave ALIVE. She flat out told Hannibal "you may eat me, but it won't be today." Before that, she tried to set Hannibal up to get killed by that other guy before Hannibal killed him. Whether or not Bedelia enjoyed the ride, she wasn't voluntarily there. The implied threat on her life always existed if she defied Hannibal.

 

Considering the situation she was in, when you compare her to Jack, Will, Alana, and everyone else who was involved with Hannibal, I can't fault her for going along with some of his acts just to survive. Does that make her a good person? No, but the instinct to survive is strong and, out of the rest of them, she is the least scathed by her involvement with him. If Hannibal had truly gotten his hands on Will, he may be a killer--he's already drawn to the man and the way he operates. Chiyo kills people who threatens Hannibal's life. Alana will never be the same. Jack has his own personal demons. Etc Etc. Bedelia knew how to play the game because she was willing to get her hands dirty and knew better than to make the mistakes that others have made. She knows when and when not to cross Hannibal and she knows how to play her part in order to make it to the end or survive another day. 

[Bruinsfan]

If Hannibal had truly gotten his hands on Will, he may be a killer--he's already drawn to the man and the way he operates. . 

Technically he is a killer as of Garrett Hobbs, though that was of course necessary in pursuit of his duties. It's what Will did to Randall Tier that demonstrates either Hannibal could have transformed him into a serial killer or he was already a latent one before meeting Hannibal.

[Captanne]

Will also killed and splayed the hermit in Castle Hannibalvania.

[Crossbow]

Will has killed three people and admitted to enjoying at least the first one. Didn't seem too broken up about the others either, even after mutilating them. If Hannibal hadn't overplayed his hand so badly first season, he probably could have brought Will over to his side.

[AstaCharles]

Will also killed and splayed the hermit in Castle Hannibalvania.

Didn't whatshername kill the hermit? Or he was already dead and Will just displayed his corpse ?

[Fen]

Didn't whatshername kill the hermit? Or he was already dead and Will just displayed his corpse ?

 

Will released the prisoner, forcing Chiyoh to act one way or another.  Then he went all arts and crafts on the corpse.

 

I'm wondering if what happened with Chiyoh and her prisoner might pop up again in some way in wherever Hannibal and Alana's story ends up.  The idea of them both stagnating in the role of gaoler seems too on the nose to be a coincidence.

[Epeolatrix]

Why are the rights on her hung up, but not Hannibal?

Because the character of Hannibal first appeared in Red Dragon. Characters whose first appearance was in Silence of the Lambs belong to a different company.

[Tippi Blevins]

I hadn't really realized the size difference between Hugh Dancy and Richard Armitage until I saw this picture.

 

http://bonearenaofmyskull.tumblr.com/post/126666764624

 

(Not my blog)

 

Suddenly, Will getting tossed around like a grocery bag in an updraft makes a little more sense.

Edited August 14, 2015 by Tippi Blevins

[Bruinsfan]

Oh, Hugh Dancy is teensy. I just watched The Jane Austen Book Club last night and he looked like a child standing next to Maggie Grace.

[Crossbow]

Oh, Hugh Dancy is teensy. I just watched The Jane Austen Book Club last night and he looked like a child standing next to Maggie Grace.

 

In the post mortems, Mads says his pet name for Hugh is "Wee Man." Then they joked about how people don't realize how tiny he is.

 

ETA: I can't link to that page. The internet tells me he is 5'9", which is average, and Armitage is 6'2". Mads is 6'.

Edited August 14, 2015 by Crossbow

[mledawn]

Only slightly related is that Lara Jean Chorostecki (Freddie Lounds) is 5'1". ​I had no idea she was so teeny until I saw a BTS pic from her other show (X-Company), beside someone whose height I do know. Scenes with her and Hugh Dancy alone make them both look Hollywood proportional.
 

[Captanne]

I noticed how tiny he is when they filmed him "covered in blood, outside, in the dark".  Why I suddenly noticed how tiny he is, I cannot explain.  But it was really obvious.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59yhETS7mP8

[DeadlyEuphoric]

During her time in Italy, Bedelia didn't seem to be enjoying herself, she seem to be biding her time and going with the flow until she could leave ALIVE. She flat out told Hannibal "you may eat me, but it won't be today." Before that, she tried to set Hannibal up to get killed by that other guy before Hannibal killed him. Whether or not Bedelia enjoyed the ride, she wasn't voluntarily there. The implied threat on her life always existed if she defied Hannibal.

 

The reason I can't see Bedelia in Italy as Hannibal's victim or prisoner etc. is she totally wanted to and chose to went with him there. Of all the people in this show, she is the one who actually managed to catch Hannibal by surprise, totally naked, with a gun pointed at him. When she came to her house that day and realized Hannibal was in her shower, she could have just left, him not realizing she was back - she would have been safe. But she chose to sit around and wait for him. When he finally got out of the shower, she could have opted to shoot him - she would have been safe. But she chose to lower the gun and accompany him when he fleed to Italy, knowing full well what he is capable of and who he is and what he will be doing there. All because she was curious and wanted to observe the beast in his habitat or something. So she was a very willing and voluntary participant in whatever he was doing in Italy and I do like that he called her out on that when he asked her if she was observing and participating and then pretty much told her she was lying to herself by saying she was just observing, she is very much participating - if memory serves she even had a part in "is this that kind of a party?" guy getting killed because some of the lines she used in her conversations with him was suspicious and made him more interested in them, and she later on said she was curious as to what would happen (which is so Hannibal-like).

 

 

Have to agree to disagree, because this D is way more sympathetic than the creep in Manhunter. That dude made my skin crawl.

I was talking about the movie Red Dragon and Ralph Fiennes. I vaguely remember the guy in Manhunter and yeah, he was creepy. And I don't at all remember Reba in that movie, to be honest. Didn't leave much of an impressions (and so neither did the Reba/Dolarhyde relationship in that one).

 

I freaking love Anderson's line deliveries. I disagree that it's lack of emotion; it reads to me like every possible emotion turned up to eleven, and then just....stoppered. Like if she breathes too deeply or loudly she'll shatter. She utters each line as if she's contemplating the weight of every word just before it leaves her lips, so she can contain the nuclear winter.

 

I think when Bedelia told Will extreme acts of violence require a high level of empathy and how he might want to choose to crush someone the next time he has an urge to help them out to save himself a lot of trouble, she was trying to say "I am like you, I have too much empathy, but I have learned to wear adequate armor and be cruel when necessary". I don't agree with it, but I can totally see her use that kind of thinking to explain her actions and feel OK about all she does.

 

In some way, it is possible Bedelia is the answer to a lot of "what ifs" concerning Will and what would happen if he chose to run away with Hannibal to Italy. Shows us what kind of life they would have, and also probably what kind of a murder partner Will would turn into. He would transition from nurturing to crushing.

[jeansheridan]

"Will: Murder and cannibalism are morally acceptable.

Bedelia: They are acceptable - to murderers and cannibals. And you.

Will. And you."

 

I just noticed this quote in the quote section.  IS cannibalism acceptable to Will?   He doesn't argue with Bedelia.  We know he willingly eats Randall Tier (I'm assuming he was partially eaten ...maybe not?).  And he watches Mason eat his own nose. 

 

And Jack had to ignore what he was eating too.   It doesn't appear that cannibalism is that big of a taboo to overcome. 

[Bruinsfan]

I think I'd overcome my taboos against cannibalism in the moment when being served a meal by a very fussy cannibal who's likely to figure out how to make me into dessert if I raise a stink about his choice of entree.

 

In the post mortems, Mads says his pet name for Hugh is "Wee Man." Then they joked about how people don't realize how tiny he is.

 

ETA: I can't link to that page. The internet tells me he is 5'9", which is average, and Armitage is 6'2". Mads is 6'.

IMDB lists him as 5'11". Ha, no. Not unless Claire Danes has suddenly grown six inches for this photo.

[queenanne]

I freaking love Anderson's line deliveries. I disagree that it's lack of emotion; it reads to me like every possible emotion turned up to eleven, and then just....stoppered. Like if she breathes too deeply or loudly she'll shatter. She utters each line as if she's contemplating the weight of every word just before it leaves her lips, so she can contain the nuclear winter.

 

Agreed, it's like watching acting microsurgery for me.  Does she exaggerate it, maybe, to prove she's out from under the spell of Hannibal (well, his injections, anyway)?

 

I have never seen Rutina Wesley in anything before, and I believe this storyline wholly because I find her so adorably scoop-her-up-and-squee-worthy.

 

As for the painting-chawing, it's been a while but I tend to believe book-version storyline was both interpretations, and that the FBI had a hack at treating it like the "this is part of the process of Becoming" at first, only to change their mind as things went on.  (I could be wrong.)

Edited August 16, 2015 by queenanne

[DeadlyEuphoric]

"Will: Murder and cannibalism are morally acceptable.

Bedelia: They are acceptable - to murderers and cannibals. And you.

Will. And you."

 

I just noticed this quote in the quote section.  IS cannibalism acceptable to Will?   He doesn't argue with Bedelia.  We know he willingly eats Randall Tier (I'm assuming he was partially eaten ...maybe not?).  And he watches Mason eat his own nose. 

 

And Jack had to ignore what he was eating too.   It doesn't appear that cannibalism is that big of a taboo to overcome. 

 

I've been thinking about that line too. Bedelia also didn't argue with Will when he claimed it was acceptable to her too, though we know she was rather disgusted by it and was making sure to never eat meat served by Hannibal. And Will was also rather disgusted by it when he first realized Hannibal has been feeding them humans...

 

So I guess what the "cannibalism is acceptable" bit is about is not so much that Bedelia and Will would be willing participants of it, but that they understand the people who engage in it and don't judge them as harshly as others might, and if necessary can even bring themselves to eat human meat too even if it is not their normal choice (like Will did with Randall).

[BigBlueMastiff]

 

I was talking about the movie Red Dragon and Ralph Fiennes. I vaguely remember the guy in Manhunter and yeah, he was creepy. And I don't at all remember Reba in that movie, to be honest. Didn't leave much of an impressions (and so neither did the Reba/Dolarhyde relationship in that one).

Aha, Reba was played by the lovely Joan Allen in Manhunter. Her scene with the tiger was amazing, and also when Francis kills her driver/friend because he's under the delusion that the two were having affair. Then her sheer terror, when Francis kidnaps her, brings her to his house, and torments her before Will and the FBI save her life, and end Dollarhyde's.

[millennium]

On 8/7/2015 at 9:13 PM, Captanne said:

 

Just fabulous.

 

Except for:  Bedelia SUCKS on so many levels.  Her.  ee. nun. cee. ay. shun.  makes.  me.  cray.  zee.  STOP IT STOP IT STOP IT.  STOP.  IT.

Bedelia's speech patterns differ significantly from the way she spoke in Season 2 (right up to the point where she faked being chemically manipulated by Hannibal).   I found myself wondering whether she was being deliberate in making it seem like she's impaired on some level, even if just an emotional one, or did she indeed suffer some kind of emotional/physical setback from her time in Florence?   Either way, she does not present as the same woman who ran away with Hannibal.  She seems like someone who has come through the fire more or less intact but fundamentally changed.

Somewhere in "The Fall" forum I once wrote that I could watch a whole episode of Gillian Anderson just reading the phone book.   I thought Bedelia 1.0 was enticing; but I found Bedelia 2.0 difficult to watch.  It's like she's already dead, with the details TBA.

I have only a couple episodes left to go.   I will be unhappy when they are done.   This season has not been as satisfying as last season.   Partly because the Dolarhyde story, which I always felt was pretty weak, has been done to death -- two movies, and now the series treatment.  But mostly because the story reduces the titular character to a supporting role.   It seems like such a waste to have Mads Mikkelsen on the set and not use him to greater advantage.