Grant Ward: Hates the Patriots

[ChelseaNH]

Redirecting from episode thread:

I think he's trying to grasp onto Skye as his anchor the same way he did with Garrett.

 

But why Skye?  Garrett was alpha to Ward's beta.  Skye was Ward's trainee, so subordinate.  If he's looking to replace Garrett, he'd look for another alpha.  Plus he was obsessed with Skye while Garrett was still around.

[MostlyC]

I think Ward is in love with Skye.  It's not a healthy love, but I think he sees her as a way towards redemption- he thinks that she can save him and he worships her (she's kind of the antithesis of Garret).  Again, not a healthy kind of love.

 

And not that I relish the idea, but I wish we could learn more about Ward's childhood, his family, and what happened when he broke down and tried to kill himself.  He didn't seem all that repentant last season when he was brought in, more pissed off, and with a broken larynx.  

[Vera]

Okay, so I had a bit of a sensitive topic I wanted to discuss. Post the Ward-is-Hydra reveal, I've been placing the May/Ward as rape. Rape by deception, if you will. It's not something that is often discussed as it is so often done in fiction (real life too really). Especially in this world of spycraft.

However, when I brought up my views elsewhere, it was a 'No, May initiated the relationship and she herself said that he was never on top' response. I was curious as to the opinions of everyone here.

[Guest Accused Dingo]

Okay, so I had a bit of a sensitive topic I wanted to discuss. Post the Ward-is-Hydra reveal, I've been placing the May/Ward as rape. Rape by deception, if you will. It's not something that is often discussed as it is so often done in fiction (real life too really). Especially in this world of spycraft.

However, when I brought up my views elsewhere, it was a 'No, May initiated the relationship and she herself said that he was never on top' response. I was curious as to the opinions of everyone here.

We can't call everything rape. Even if Ward approached May it wouldn't have been rape. That would mean that every person who has not been completly honest about themselves to the person they have sex with is guilty of rape. Ward is a killer, a traitor, and a liar but what he isn't is a rapist.

[ChelseaNH]

I don't see Ward's deception negating May's ability to consent.

[Guest Accused Dingo]

I was watching an early season 1 episode. The one they bust Skye as a spy. Ward tells Coulson "You can't save someone from themselves." Coulson reaponds, "You can if you get to them early enough". Of course they were talking about Skye but that conversation has a whole knew meaning considering Wards evil turn. Was there ever a moment they could have gotten to him? Or was he always a lost cause?

[KirkB]

I'd say he was a lost cause by the time Coulson got to him. He'd long since been worked over, physically and emotionally, by his parents and brother, and what they didn't ruin was warped further by Garrett.

[ChelseaNH]

Moving over from episode thread:

 

He MEANT it. He wasn't saying it just to sound good.

 

Ward knows he's damaged, but he doesn't understand the damage.  I suspect being on Coulson's team was probably the most rewarding time of his life.  Yes, he valued his dependency on Garrett more, but it didn't seem like a relationship he enjoyed.  And now that he's lost Garrett, he'd rather be back with Team Coulson.  But that old team doesn't exist and can't be reconstituted.  He really is like Cal in that longing for what cannot be.

 

I believe he felt a genuine sympathy for Kara and wanted to help her, primarily because he identified with her situation.  I don't know that he'd be that concerned about someone less in his image.  But that sympathy wouldn't stop him from using her to achieve his ends.  He'd just tell himself that whatever he was doing to her was to her benefit.

 

We still haven't seen what last thing they needed to get from Coulson in order to make Kara whole, or if that was just a story he was using to keep her cooperative until she landed back at SHIELD.

[kitlee625]

Well what's telling about him is that he doesn't regret killing SHIELD agents or lying to the team or manipulating them or kidnapping Skye or even dumping Fitz and Simmons out of a plane. The only thing he regrets is that his actions affected him and made him lose the team. That doesn't show a lot of empathy to me.

Edited April 29, 2015 by kitlee625

[APSimpson]

I think this is where Kara will come into play. She can say good things about Ward to the team where perhaps some who weren't directly affected by Ward (Mack/Bobbi/Hunter) will give him a chance. Fitz will probably come around at some point and might even confront Simmons on trying to disintegrate Ward.

 

They might never be buddy-buddy with Ward again but he will be an asset they can turn to.

 

Maybe later on he can be part of the team again. If I'm Ward at this point I only need Coulson and perhaps Bobbi (who is fair) and Mack, Hunter, and of course Fitz and I'd be happy. Coulson already seems comfortable with Ward.

[APSimpson]

His character is at its best when he hovers between Chaotic Neutral and Chaotic Evil.

 

Yeah, but this isn't Dungeons & Dragons. ;) Besides, I don't think Ward is chaotic, he's more the loyal follow-the orders type so I'd put his alignment at Lawful Neutral. 

 

I think Ward is brought back with the team next season. There will be vacancies with the spinoff (potentially Hunter and Bobbi's farewell from Shield) and they'll need somebody to fill the gap. The person to replace Ward next season will be... Ward! He's already being redeemed and he's much more interesting as the sad puppy dog who's loyal to somebody (not to reiterate too much but he was never loyal to Hydra; he was loyal to Garret, now it'll be to Coulson.)

 

Hand: "no agent is worth that."

Ward: "Coulson is."

[Humbugged]

Yeah, but this isn't Dungeons & Dragons. ;) Besides, I don't think Ward is chaotic, he's more the loyal follow-the orders type so I'd put his alignment at Lawful Neutral. 

 

I think Ward is brought back with the team next season. There will be vacancies with the spinoff (potentially Hunter and Bobbi's farewell from Shield) and they'll need somebody to fill the gap. The person to replace Ward next season will be... Ward! He's already being redeemed and he's much more interesting as the sad puppy dog who's loyal to somebody (not to reiterate too much but he was never loyal to Hydra; he was loyal to Garret, now it'll be to Coulson.)

 

Hand: "no agent is worth that."

Ward: "Coulson is."

 

 

He shot and killed 2 US servicemen off his own bat and without 'lawful orders' a few episodes ago in order to break another criminal out of custody.That is hardly a redemption arc

 

Are we watching the same show and watching him kill the same people ? I do wonder about the SWW and their selective viewing

Edited May 5, 2015 by Humbugged

[Sakura12]

When he's hot and can give good puppy dog eyes nothing he does matters. The audience will forgive him.

[kitlee625]

When he's hot and can give good puppy dog eyes nothing he does matters. The audience will forgive him.

 

Sadly true, although personally I'm getting tired of his character since he seems to have only two modes - crazy eyes and puppy eyes.

[Sakura12]

Oh, I know. Ward only became interesting when he was revealed as evil. Before that he was boring and bland. I really hate when the bad guy needs to become good so they can continue to keep them on the show. Writers need to know when to let characters go. They just end up ruining the bad guy and the good characters to make them fit. If he rejoins, he'll either go back to that or continue to be shady and the heroes will look the other way because they are all best friends now or he's still evil and the characters are stupid for trusting him again. Neither way makes any of the characters look good.

Edited May 5, 2015 by Sakura12

[Humbugged]

When he's hot and can give good puppy dog eyes nothing he does matters. The audience will forgive him.

 

Sadly true, although personally I'm getting tired of his character since he seems to have only two modes - crazy eyes and puppy eyes.

But the vast majority of the audience seem to have no interest in seeing him redeemed .The people interested in that are a small but noisy group that are frankly getting no traction .

 

As for the writers they  had him spout the memes that appear on the Tumblerverse (and its not the first time they have broken the 4th wall -I gaive you Mary Sue Poots) from SWW peeps and then had the rest of the OG6 tell him to go fuck himself and continue to wish him dead

[Sakura12]

I know the other characters continue to give him fuck you looks, but I'm just wary from being a longtime tv watcher on what they will do in the future. I'm trying to give them the benefit of the doubt. I just don't like what I've seen in interviews and upcoming plot summaries. 

[sinkwriter]

 

As for the writers they  had him spout the memes that appear on the Tumblerverse (and its not the first time they have broken the 4th wall -I gaive you Mary Sue Poots) from SWW peeps and then had the rest of the OG6 tell him to go fuck himself and continue to wish him dead

 

It may just be the lack of sleep talking (only 4 hours last night), but I am not connecting with those abbreviations. What's "SWW" and "OG6"?

[Cranberry]

OG6 is probably original six, but I don't know about SWW.

[Kromm]

It may just be the lack of sleep talking (only 4 hours last night), but I am not connecting with those abbreviations. What's "SWW" and "OG6"?

Ahhhhhhhhh!  AMSA!  AMSA!  AMSA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

(that stands for "Acronym Madness Strikes Again!")

[Humbugged]

OG6 is probably original six, but I don't know about SWW.

 

 

Yeah I meant the original 6 .And SWW is the Stand With Ward mob who now have descended into conspiracy theories about Mo Tancheroen being behind a feminist(and Asian) conspiracy to keep their boy down

[Llywela]

OG6 is probably original six, but I don't know about SWW.

SkyeWard...Weirdos? I reckon the first SW is SkyeWard, but the second W has me stumped.

 

ETA:

Yeah I meant the original 6 .And SWW is the Stand With Ward mob who now have descended into conspiracy theories about Mo Tancheroen being behind a feminist(and Asian) conspiracy to keep their boy down

Ah. Gotcha.

Edited May 5, 2015 by Llywela

[Humbugged]

I know the other characters continue to give him fuck you looks, but I'm just wary from being a longtime tv watcher on what they will do in the future. I'm trying to give them the benefit of the doubt. I just don't like what I've seen in interviews and upcoming plot summaries. 

 

What summaries and interviews are you talking about ?He aint mentioned in anything I have seen ( its all Inhuman and Pointy SHIELD) and I doubt he will even be in them.

The ideal solution was for him to be spun off not Hunter/Mockingbird

The

[sinkwriter]

 

 

Ahhhhhhhhh!  AMSA!  AMSA!  AMSA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(that stands for "Acronym Madness Strikes Again!")

 

LOL! Yes! I can't take it! My brain can't keep up! Especially on lack of sleep. I can figure out most of them, but sometimes I'm all, "Wha--? I don't -- I can't -- what is that?" Heee.

 

 

Yeah I meant the original 6 .And SWW is the Stand With Ward mob who now have descended into conspiracy theories about Mo Tancheroen being behind a feminist(and Asian) conspiracy to keep their boy down

 

Thank you for clarifying. Is SWW an actual name they use? Stand with Ward... wow. I refuse! I can't stand with him. Sorry, mob. He's beyond the point where I think he could re-join the team. He can keep being a pain in their asses, but never a trusted team member, not ever again. The way I see it, even his seeming words of wistfulness, happy to have the team back together or wanting to get things out in the open to clear the air, could very well be yet another manipulation on his part. I don't trust anything that comes out of his mouth. After all, being their friend in the first place was all a very convincing act.

 

(And major eyeroll regarding the "conspiracy to keep their boy down." Wow, again. Please. LOL.)

[Sakura12]

What summaries and interviews are you talking about ?He aint mentioned in anything I have seen ( its all Inhuman and Pointy SHIELD) and I doubt he will even be in them.

The ideal solution was for him to be spun off not Hunter/Mockingbird

The

 

It's from the TV Guide interview in the Spoiler thread. Something about Ward being the most changed of any of our characters. He already changed from good to evil, What other change is there besides going back to good? 

[Humbugged]

LOL! Yes! I can't take it! My brain can't keep up! Especially on lack of sleep. I can figure out most of them, but sometimes I'm all, "Wha--? I don't -- I can't -- what is that?" Heee.

 

 

Thank you for clarifying. Is SWW an actual name they use? Stand with Ward... wow. I refuse! I can't stand with him. Sorry, mob. He's beyond the point where I think he could re-join the team. He can keep being a pain in their asses, but never a trusted team member, not ever again. The way I see it, even his seeming words of wistfulness, happy to have the team back together or wanting to get things out in the open to clear the air, could very well be yet another manipulation on his part. I don't trust anything that comes out of his mouth. After all, being their friend in the first place was all a very convincing act.

 

(And major eyeroll regarding the "conspiracy to keep their boy down." Wow, again. Please. LOL.)

Oh yeah it's a thing

 

[Kromm]

Okay, but there's a difference between what's official to the show and what some fan community out there that we may or may not know uses.  It's a cute shirt, but likely this is the first most here are seeing it (or "SWW", or even "OG6"--which was mostly guessable due to context more than it being anything official).

Edited May 5, 2015 by Kromm

[sinkwriter]

Oh my god... they have a T-SHIRT for it??

 

I can't seem to stop laughing.

[FurryFury]

Eh, it's all pretty standard stuff for fans of villainous characters. Over on Once Upon A Time, even the creators have succumbed to that disease. At least on-screen, Ward has been consistently shown as a bad guy whom nobody trusts. And he has killed way less people than Regina or Rumplestiltskin. I enjoy Ward more than either of them, but I don't want any contrived redemption just on principle.

[Sakura12]

I like villainous characters because they are villains. I hate villainous characters that the heroes are BFF's with when they should want that toxic person out of their lives forever. 

[paigow]

Marvel SAT

Coulson : Ward :: Thor : Loki

The skills that Ward [Loki] has make him a dangerous foe and a valuable ally.

Despite his [Ward / Loki] egregious crimes, [Coulson / Thor] knows that the greater good depends on co-operation with [Ward / Loki].

[Sakura12]

No, the greater good depends on Loki/Ward being locked up or killed (I say killed because keeping them alive results in my second point) so they can never do anything evil again. Since they caused or helped cause the bad things to happen in the first place. 

 

Getting help from the bad guy usually ends up with the bad guy escaping after "helping" and continuing to do bad things, making the heroes look like idiots for listening to them. Case in point, the end of Thor the Dark World. 

Edited May 5, 2015 by Sakura12

[ChelseaNH]

The ideal solution was for him to be spun off not Hunter/Mockingbird

 

I've been thinking he'd work better on the spin-off with Bobbi and Hunter, since he doesn't have the same history with them.  I really don't want to see him squeezed into the original show on a regular basis.

 

Perhaps we could get a show about non-superpowered people dealing with the newly powered world around them...

[FurryFury]

Perhaps we could get a show about non-superpowered people dealing with the newly powered world around them...

 

Heh. I wonder if this tagline wasn't Joss' original pitch for the show, but his brother and sister in law didn't agree. It was really only present in the pilot.

 

Getting help from the bad guy usually ends up with the bad guy escaping after "helping" and continuing to do bad things, making the heroes look like idiots for listening to them. Case in point, the end of Thor the Dark World.

 

For some reason, I've always thought that Loki's actions at the end of Thor 2 are not what they seem. It just feels more right to me that he didn't do it for selfish gain. It's weird, but I don't have the same problem with Loki as I do with TV villains being forgiven. Maybe because I never really invest into movies emotionally, so a character being fun matters more for me than being a dick. And Loki really is so much fun.

[paigow]

No, the greater good depends on Loki/Ward being locked up or killed (I say killed because keeping them alive results in my second point) so they can never do anything evil again. Since they caused or helped cause the bad things to happen in the first place. 

 

Getting help from the bad guy usually ends up with the bad guy escaping after "helping" and continuing to do bad things, making the heroes look like idiots for listening to them. Case in point, the end of Thor the Dark World. 

So what would have happened if Thor left Loki in jaii or killed him? The Dark Elves win. Is this better or worse for Asgard (and the other realms)?

Would SHIELD have located the Scepter without Ward / Bakshi? Without their help, there would be no Age of Ultron

[APSimpson]

I think Ward is brought back with the team next season. There will be vacancies with the spinoff (potentially Hunter and Bobbi's farewell from Shield) and they'll need somebody to fill the gap. The person to replace Ward next season will be... Ward! He's already being redeemed and he's much more interesting as the sad puppy dog who's loyal to somebody (not to reiterate too much but he was never loyal to Hydra; he was loyal to Garret, now it'll be to Coulson.)

 

Well, so much for that idea. RIP Ward, it was fun.

[Sakura12]

I'm glad he's staying bad, redemption isn't his style. He thinks he didn't do anything wrong. Which I think makes better villains when they think they are the good guys.

 

Embrace your badself Ward!

[Spartan Girl]

Ward better be dead by the end of the season.  I can't decide whether I'd want to see Simmons finish him off or Bobbi to do the honors.  Or maybe Sharon Carter could make her debut by putting several bullets in his face...

 

I know that's not likely, but it sure is fun to think about!

[Donny Ketchum]

Well, so much for that idea. RIP Ward, it was fun.

This is disappointment and devastation that must simply be enjoyed. :)

[FurryFury]

I don't think that schadenfreude is appropriate here, everyone is entitled to their hopes & opinion.

[APSimpson]

Can I renege on my earlier statement about Ward resting in peace? I just love him too much, and even if he's a villain, I am still riding this train. 

 

Grant may be dark, but he is driven by his own sense of justice. Closure and healing. I can identify with that. We can all learn a lot from Ward. Doing the work, digging in.

 

You go, Grant. I'll be there with you, always. Keep playing them, to your advantage. Nobody's really innocent, anyway, right?

 

And hey, Tom Brady suspended four games. Ward's gotta love that.

[xqueenfrostine]

 

Grant may be dark, but he is driven by his own sense of justice. Closure and healing. I can identify with that. We can all learn a lot from Ward. Doing the work, digging in.

 

Dude that's dark.  There's loving a character because he's so entertaining in his darkness, and then there's finding it admirable.  Evil Ward's a bundle of fun and very nice to look at, but learning from Ward?  That's a road to hell.  He might end up being as toxic of an influence on Kara as HYDRA was.

[frenchtoast]

I got the feeling that it was meant sarcastically. Either way, I'm happy that he's not all angsty, or at least, not all the time. All of the villains seem to be their own brand of crazy and it can be a hoot to watch. I wouldn't want to ever be in the same room with them, but they are highly entertaining. And Ward does add a nice bit of tension to story, so I'm good with it.

[Spartan Girl]

Well, as annoyed as I am that we'll have to deal with him for another season, watching May trick him into taking out his own girlfriend will ride me over...for now.

[kitlee625]

Also he's now the head of Hydra so hopefully he'll actually be an interesting villain this season.

[benteen]

I like Ward taking over the absolute ruins of Hydra.  No redemption for him!

[Malbec]

I don't find Ward that compelling, but I do like that the writers have taken a consistent line where any potential "redemption" is concerned.  It's no one's fault but his that Kara is dead, but it doesn't seem like Ward will ever have the self-awareness to grasp that.  The two of them probably could have been free and clear, especially if they'd concentrated on disappearing while Coulson/SHIELD dealt with the Inhumans' attack.

 

I'm glad the writers have decided to go even darker with him after this not-redemption arc, and I hope that May is the one to finally put him out of his misery.

[FurryFury]

Hope this will silence all those complaining about a possible redemption for Ward. It's been clear for a while this is not what the writers want. Pretty sure he'll be offed next season.

Edited May 13, 2015 by FurryFury

[Sakura12]

I do like that they are keeping Ward evil crazypants. It makes him more interesting then the tired redemption-not-really-a-redemption arc that most shows use. 

 

He was so eager to kill that he shot without even thinking and killed Kara. Then he will still never take the responsibility for it. Like Bobbi told him, it's always someone else's fault. 

[ChelseaNH]

I don't necessarily think of Ward "taking over" Hydra so much as Ward taking over Hydra's assets.  Hydra had a specific purpose and philosophy, which Ward does not share.