Grant Ward: Hates the Patriots

[KirkB]

I think he probably will get redemption, of a sort, just through death.

[Kromm]

This: 

Every time there's a hint of "redeeming" Ward, I just think of him killing two Red Shirts and then putting three slugs into Victoria Hand, all without a moment's hesitation, and I want to puke.

None of that outweighs killing Agent Patton Oswalt!  There is no forgiveness for that.  Ever!

[dusang]

Okay, I've now seen the episode and I really don't know if Buddy was shot or not and, if so, by whom.  I do know that was an ADORABLE dog and anyone who caused him harm is a terrible, irredeemable person.  Also, presumably Garrett and Ward did things other than hunt in the woods during that five-year period because that kind of deep-cover spycraft requires a lot of social skills that you do not develop living like the Unabomber in the wilderness.

 

Also, I kind of have to agree that Ward can't be redeemed and live -- he's killed too many people with both first and last names for his character to recover without audience backlash.

Edited May 8, 2014 by dusang

[Sarahastro]

Okay, I've now seen the episode and I really don't know if Buddy was shot or not and, if so, by whom.

 

When I watched the episode, I assumed it was Ward, but when I saw all the debate, I went back and watched it again. It's somewhat ambiguous, but I still think it's Ward looking through the rifle. For me, the most convincing argument (which is not mine, I got it off of tumblr) is that all of the flashbacks are from his POV. Why would they tack in a flashback from Garrett's POV at the end, especially in the tensest moment when the only characters in the scene are Ward and FitzSimmons?

[KirkB]

Given the way I think Ward's mind works, I could see him having a hard time killing Buddy face to face, with that sweet "What do you need to do expression?" but he doesn't want to disappoint Garrett (especially since it could lead to his being abandoned again, or worse) so he fires the gun in the air to send Buddy running off and shoots him from a distance.

[quarks]

Whether or not Ward shot the dog, he still abandoned the dog. So Ward isn't getting any doggie points from me.  Especially since he was able to abandon the dog after the dog had given him that "I'm a dog I love you" doggie look. Poor dog.

 

Beyond the dog issue, if Ward is going to be redeemed, I think it's going to take seasons. He just murdered several people, lied to May, someone he was sleeping with, lied to Skye, and just sent two former teammates plunging down into the Florida Straits. It took Spike four seasons and a Magic Chip to be redeemed and even with that, several fans thought he wasn't, and Angel spent three seasons of Buffy and five seasons on his own show brooding and brooding and brooding and then, for a change, brooding - and that was for stuff that Angelus did, not Angel, and in the end, Angel himself didn't think he was redeemed. And those two characters were turned evil through a neck bite, not entirely by their own choices.  Ward's got a much worse path ahead. And in the meantime, what do you do with him? A version of Spike's Magic Chip?  Well, great, except that Spike could still fight bad guys with the Magic Chip. How is that going to work on this show - just let Ward fight the superpowered guys? But then what happens when he encounters a good superpowered guy?  

 

So I'm not seeing any redemption ahead for Ward, even if he did only abandon, not kill, the dog.

[Kromm]

Beyond the dog issue, if Ward is going to be redeemed, I think it's going to take seasons. He just murdered several people, lied to May, someone he was sleeping with, lied to Skye, and just sent two former teammates plunging down into the Florida Straits. It took Spike four seasons and a Magic Chip to be redeemed and even with that, several fans thought he wasn't, and Angel spent three seasons of Buffy and five seasons on his own show brooding and brooding and brooding and then, for a change, brooding - and that was for stuff that Angelus did, not Angel, and in the end, Angel himself didn't think he was redeemed. And those two characters were turned evil through a neck bite, not entirely by their own choices.  Ward's got a much worse path ahead. 

But that's exactly why Ward is irredeemable.  They've made it clear, via Fitz's plotline of disbelief being dashed, as well as flashbacks that Ward is not being coerced or tricked in any way. Sure Garrett arguably used a form of brainwashing on him--using his approval or disapproval and "don't be weak" as a lever--but that's true of tons of psychopaths and killers in the real world and we don't magically excuse them.  

 

The actor does appear to be giving us sad regretful eyes in between scenes of violence, and that may rope in some of the audience and make them want to forgive him, but there's just no hook here to do so.  Unlike Fitz, let's say, and his attempted murder of Garrett, Ward wasn't following a motive based on protecting other people, or even something as forgivable in some ways as a vengeance quest.  He was just following the orders of an organization and a specific leader he KNOWS is based on promoting self-interest.  One could argue, I suppose, that if this (from Garrett and Ward's perspective)  was all about "curing" Garrett from Deathlockism, there might be a small hook there.  But is there really?  Massive terrorism and murder, working for Nazis who we know tried (in Cap 2) to kill hundreds of millions of people in one shot, and personal betrayals galore to cure ONE man?  If that's the basis for a forgiveness motive, then... I don't want to meet the folks who DO forgive Ward in a dark alley.  Maybe them murdering me and taking my money in that alley might feed one of their kids, but that doesn't make it forgivable.

[telane]

From the Ragtag episode thread:

 

Watcher0363, said:

In the last few episodes the one person's actions that has bothered me the most is agent Hand. She had a prisoner in custody. Then preceded to psychology manipulate a former colleague of the prisoner into shooting him in the head. That is wrong on so many levels.

 

Here, I've been trying to find ways to defend Ward, and I didn't notice THAT. 

Ward did't kill Hand because he wanted to, he killed her because he was pushed into a corner. He had a choice - kill the man he was Stockholm-Syndromed to follow, or refuse to do it and thus blow his cover. Or - third option - he could just blow his cover and then kill the only people who could tell on him. 

 

Of course he should have said "no, we are not supposed to do such things." Maybe it was another of those Hand's test? Then this would be the correct answer. But I have to say it, Hand was pretty stupid with her tests. Plus, she was completely unprepared for any of the wrong answers. I mean, what would she do, if Ward really shot Garrett? Would she shake his hand and congratulate him? Would that be the okay thing to do in Marvel Verse? Kill a tied up prisoner? And if not, who would be held responsible for such action, Hand or Ward?

 

I'd like to analyze Hand's point of view in this situation, based on what we saw, not on any speculation. She doesn't know if Ward is one of the good guys or not. But she isn't sure he's a bad guy either. Judging by her nonchalance and lack of precautions, I think she's leaning toward him being on the Shield's side, not Hydra's. So he's her guy, under her command. She further knows that he shot an innocent man not long ago and she knows that he is aware of his mistake. She knows that his SO turned out to be a traitor. IF Ward was really a good guy at this point, that would have messed him up some. He would not be in the right mindset (he isn't anyway, but for different reasons). Hand shouldn't have ever taken him with her. Coulson, as his SO, should have opposed as well. To them, if they really didn't know Ward's allegiances, he was their subordinate who sought unhealthy vengence on the father-figure who'd failed him. They should have kept him separate from Garrett. Instead Coulson, his current leader, gave him his blessing and Hand gave him the weapon. That's not what responsible, trustworthy leaders do. If they wanted to clean up their mess, they shouldn't have tried to use a messed up man under their command to do it.

 

Their actions would only make sense if they knew he was Hydra, but then, they would be prepared to apprehend him the moment he so much as twitched in the wrong direction. Which they didn't. So that means they are bad leaders. Hand was not only stupid, she was also disregarding her subodrinate's skewed mental state. Worse than that, she was trying to use his mental state to her own agenda.

 

Or - if we go the speculation route - it's the tripple agent theory again, which... makes no sense in light of Ward's own actions.

One episode to go. I hope there are answers.

[Watcher0363]

One of my main problems with Hand's actions was that Garrett was at least a mid level Hydra agent. The world would be better off interrogating him for information.

When she started with her little manipulation I thought she was Hydra also, seeing if she could turn Ward by testing his loyalty to Garrett. The truth is given Garrett's motivations she could have been Hydra, but a road block to his true goals.

[Raja]

The way I saw it was that after 70 years or maybe around 50 in Agent Hand's case SHIELD and Hydra recruited from the same pool with the same assessment criteria. Those who passed the final test like Garrett and Ward were taking into the secret organization of Hydra inside of SHIELD. In other words the gray actions of Hand, Ward, Fury or Garrett were not different from each other until Captain America found out and kicked off the SHIELD Civil War. At which point Hand was going just as black hat as Ward and Garrett That Skye as a civil libertarian outsider saw until the SHIELD wasn't entirely white hat but she came to trust folks like Coulson represented the greater good.

 

What I don't get is how secret is SHIELD? In some scenes it is like nobody ever heard of it like with the recruitment of Ward, in others they have an academy in America's heartland and a headquarters building overlooking Washington DC. It sort of reminds me of 24 the first season when Jack Bauer calls out CTU and a local cop has no ideal what he is talking about but by the second season they had unit patched uniformed agents running around like SHIELD does

[theFel]

I imagine SHIELD is sort of like the NSA, the people in the know know about it, but if you interview the random moron on the sidewalk you might get a lot of confused answers.

 

I think it had to be Ward who shot the dog. That is actual a tie back to National Socialism. It was the SS (I believe) who were given a puppy to raise during training and as part of their graduation had to strangle it. So "shoot the dog" is probably a standard HYDRA test. Since it was Garrett testing Ward, if Garrett shot the dog, why would he then trust Ward if he failed the test?

 

As far as redemption for Ward, what I would like to see is since Ward seems more loyal to Garrett than HYDRA, Garrett bites it and Ward goes independent. He can then become sort of a recurring grey area villain/ally for several seasons and slowly get his redemption. Or a bullet between the eyes.  

[KirkB]

Actually, I'd compare SHIELD more to NCIS (the organization, not the show). There have been enough movies and TV shows for most people to be vaguely aware of the CIA, FBI, NSA and those other three letter places. Even if they don't know exactly what they do, or are allowed to do, you generally know what it means when someone shows up flashing one of their badges. But prior to the CBS show, most people outside of the navy, or at least the military, had never heard of NCIS. The movies make it appear that, at least until Winter Soldier, a lot of law enforcement and military folks knew about SHIELD and generally disliked them because they had a tendency to walk in and take over, making things and people disappear, but the general public had never really heard of them.

Edited May 9, 2014 by KirkB

[dusang]

I think SHIELD was secret until the Chituari invasion in Avengers.

[KirkB]

Coulson showed up in the first Iron Man, spelling out the whole name. It wasn't until the end of the movie they even used the SHIELD acronym, implying it wasn't actually called that before. But I get the feeling that the organization is supposed to have been around a lot longer than that, in one form or another. You may be right though. It could be that SHIELD wasn't KNOWN before New York. They could have been in the background, acting like the Men in Black, gaining more authority as more bizarre stuff started happening. Since New York I think SHIELD has become publicly known, just not all of what they do.

[Kromm]

Coulson showed up in the first Iron Man, spelling out the whole name. It wasn't until the end of the movie they even used the SHIELD acronym, implying it wasn't actually called that before. But I get the feeling that the organization is supposed to have been around a lot longer than that, in one form or another. You may be right though. It could be that SHIELD wasn't KNOWN before New York. They could have been in the background, acting like the Men in Black, gaining more authority as more bizarre stuff started happening. Since New York I think SHIELD has become publicly known, just not all of what they do.

SHIELD clearly had a paramilitary beginning though, which some people knew about, with The Howling Commandos.  That's both Marvel comics cannon, and has been mentioned prominently now on the show, and at least implied by stuff we hear about in Cap 2.

 

At some point, either in a movie or even some kind of Netflix project or something like that, I bet we get that stuff on film.  The Peggy Carter show, in fact, may have quite a bit of that.

Edited May 9, 2014 by Kromm

[silverstream]

Well, this episode certainly seemed to confirm that Ward is evil. And that he's apparently never had a thought by himself and instead follows any bully who comes along (first his brother, then Garrett) and does whatever they say. Only he's not exactly 10 years old anymore, so I don't think he can use this as an excuse for being Hydra. (And after being shown more evidence of Ward's dependence on Garrett and hearing Garrett's explanation of what Hydra is - they 'understand the importance of survival' - I'm not surprised at Ward's reaction to Skye's accusation that he's a Nazi last episode; it's entirely possible he never looked up what Hydra really is by himself and dismissed anything he heard by accident as propaganda. And I'm not even sure I'm not serious about that - this episode certainly doesn't make Ward seem very smart.)

 

Also, are we supposed to think that Garrett kept Ward in the woods for five years, or did they simply always drive there whenever Garrett wanted to have a heart to heart? It can't really be the former, because Ward apparently went to SHIELD academy and had time to learn a gazillion languages, but it's still odd.

 

And what's up with Ward's parents? Did Ward really not tell them that his brother was forcing him to torture his other brother, not even as self defence after he tried to pretty much literally murder him? Or if he did, they were still supporting the brother? That sounds less like the cable version of the Kennedys and more like a present-day version of the Boltons.

 

One a side note, I find it very amusing that everybody is debating what happened to the dog when not five minutes later in episode-time Ward dropped Fitz and Simmons out of a flying plane.

 

(Also, instead of being worried about the dog, after hearing Garrett's line to 'take care of the dog' my mind instead did a jump cut to a scene of Ward dropping off the dog at an animal shelter, Simpsons-style. But then, in the 'six months later' scene before that, when Garrett came to collect Ward and asked him how the dog was, my mind immediately showed me an empty clearing and supplied Ward with the line 'I was hungry - I ate him'. Apparently my mind is a scary place. Though I'm sure Garrett's facial expression would have been priceless...)

Edited May 10, 2014 by silverstream

[KirkB]

The funny thing is, my first thought when Garrett got back six months later was that Ward ate the dog too.

 

I think more people are talking about the dog is we genuinely don't know what happened to him. We know Fitz and Simmons are fine. Even if they were going to kill one or both of them it wouldn't be in a "and Coulson later finds their bodies" way.

 

See, it looks like I had a lot of the same reactions as you. After this episode I expected to understand Ward better, maybe even get more of an explanation for why he's following Garret. I did get some of the latter but I also came away with the realization Ward was always kind of an ass and not too bright.

[Raja]

Well, this episode certainly seemed to confirm that Ward is evil. And that he's apparently never had a thought by himself and instead follows any bully who comes along (first his brother, then Garrett) and does whatever they say. Only he's not exactly 10 years old anymore, so I don't think he can use this as an excuse for being Hydra. (And after being shown more evidence of Ward's dependence on Garrett and hearing Garrett's explanation of what Hydra is - they 'understand the importance of survival' - I'm not surprised at Ward's reaction to Skye's accusation that he's a Nazi last episode; it's entirely possible he never looked up what Hydra really is by himself and dismissed anything he heard by accident as propaganda. And I'm not even sure I'm not serious about that - this episode certainly doesn't make Ward seem very smart.)

 

Also, are we supposed to think that Garrett kept Ward in the woods for five years, or did they simply always drive there whenever Garrett wanted to have a heart to heart? It can't really be the former, because Ward apparently went to SHIELD academy and had time to learn a gazillion languages, but it's still odd.

 

And what's up with Ward's parents? Did Ward really not tell them that his brother was forcing him to torture his other brother, not even as self defence after he tried to pretty much literally murder him? Or if he did, they were still supporting the brother? That sounds less like the cable version of the Kennedys and more like a present-day version of the Boltons.

 

This entire Nazi/Hydra thing baffles me. How could Ward not know about the link unless he was raised by Holocaust deniers in a TV free home? Were there not movies and books in the MCU? We know they were there during  WWII when Captain America was on war bond tours and later in newsreels when he went into combat. Just as movies would have been made about the flying fighter pilot aces and bomber crews, submariners and other sailors Marines storming a Pacific beach and the Paratroopers on Normandy I would expect there would have been Captain America and Howling Commandos and the Strategic Scientific reserve, (maybe even becoming SHIELD as the OSS became the CIA), also rotating on TV before a Band of Brothers equivalent was made in part to honor the last of that generation. to deny all of that is also to deny what he found on "the winners" sites if he studied it for himself.

 

It only works if he started out as a Nazi, but a smooth one. The type who would not get the tattoos if he spent more time in prison.

[KirkB]

See, I don't think the Hydra of today are Nazis. The organization came from them sure, and maybe some of the higher ups like Pierce subscribe to some of the ethnic cleansing aspects but even they aren't exactly followers of Hitler or anything. Then you get guys like Garrett and Ward, who don't even seem to see Hydra as anything more than a means to an end, even if what that end is isn't exactly clear. I'm sure Ward knows Hydra originated from the Nazis (his SHIELD training would have taught him that much) but he certainly doesn't consider himself one.

[myril]

Was HYDRA ever Nazis? I mean, there were sure plenty of connections, and they share some believes and views, but the little that has been given about HYDRA ideology in the Marvel Cinematic Universe (MCU) so far makes it look like HYDRA always had its own agenda, headed and followed by people who were even more radical than the leaders of the Nazis. After all Red Skull ridicules and kills the Nazi guys send to assess his progress with constructing new weapons, and he wanted to eliminate Berlin, in his view the German Nazis were thinking too small. What HYDRA shared with the Nazis was the view, that the majority of people in the world had to be controlled and shepherded for their own good , unable to take care of themselves, favoring a fascist system, though HYDRA was all into creating a New World Order having little national interests, an aggressive and violent policy of conquest, and the believe that some people were superior based on biologism and could be improved by use of science, technology and eugenics (Raina feels no allegiance to HYDRA, but with what seems to be her believe system she might be in parts closer to their ideology than Garrett is).

 

HYDRA mirrors some theories and myth about occult influence on Nazi as much as it was trying to mirror history. Captain America fought the Nazis, it was a bit of war propaganda, but the average, common Nazi was not enough to fight for a superhero, so there is HYDRA as super villain organisation. And if you take a look at historical Nazis and modern Neo-Nazis: They like to make believe that they have one mind, but there are different schools. No to mention there are and were plenty of psychopaths, sociopaths and opportunists attracted to them.

 

Agree, Ward hardly considers himself as Nazi, more as a tough guy and survivor loyal to people but not any ideology. He does what, in his view, has to be done to survive. While Garrett is the plain narcissist and psychopath, Ward is the troubled (young) man with troubled past being mislead, following the wrong people - which means, there is room for redemption.

 

Now I don't believe in redemption at all (I don't believe in hell or damnation, so consequential neither in redemption), at best someone like Ward can bear responsibility for all the wrong and evil he did, but from some point on he can start to do, or at least try very hard to do the right, the good. Nevertheless the way they have portrayed Ward on the show I think they are creating the possibility of a redemption story telling arc for him already. Like some noticed in episodes threads that Hand was not an all good doer either, so murdering her was an evil deed but not one never to be forgiven. They left it ambiguous if Ward killed the dog, if the dog was killed (leaving him in the wild can be seen as giving him a fighting chance, and he might be picked up by someone, there were a few cabin around, meaning some people coming by once in a while). As they left it open if the brother who was in the house when Ward set it on fire was injured or killed and which one it was (the early signs of psychopathy trope though: arson, killing pets, only missing bedwetting here). Ward ejected the container with Fitz and Simmons, but they have a fighting chance, it was no shot in the heads execution style. Ward killed soldiers and other agents, but it was combat and following orders.

 

The story arc for Ward could be heading to more or less tragic antihero, with twisted sort of happy ending maybe. Or could go to true happy ending and redemption, the hardest to sell and most likely to fail with, but very sure there are a number of people hoping and rooting for that. Most unlikely option is that Ward is on a staying evil road. I don't care enough about Ward as character to mind, where he ends up, just wish for good story telling wherever they're going to take him now.

Edited May 11, 2014 by katusch

[millahnna]

I figure even if Hydra is actively a nazi organization, they likely don't pitch it that way to new recruits.  The word has too much (well earned) baggage so they likely stay away from that angle of it.  I'd bet they sell it differently to every single person (power, self esteem, money, fame, scientific discovery etc.). 

[myril]

I figure even if Hydra is actively a nazi organization, they likely don't pitch it that way to new recruits.  The word has too much (well earned) baggage so they likely stay away from that angle of it.  I'd bet they sell it differently to every single person (power, self esteem, money, fame, scientific discovery etc.). 

Right, it depends on the new recruit. Agree, they approach people in different ways, whatever they think will get them, if it's a person they're after,and it's always better to convince them into joining than coerce them to work with them.  But sure there are as well people quite eager to join them the minute the learn they exist, because they share their views, some of them people HYDRA might have not much use for than being cannon fodder.

 

Ward was hardly the type to care about ideology at all, he was connecting more with people than ideas, so that was what Garrett appealed to as the good manipulator that he is, and to Ward's motivation or instinct to do all to survive (Garrett mention HYDRA "understands the importance of survival", making a connection to the twisted Nazi version of survival of the fittest). Ward didn't knew what HYDRA was at first, but should have learned about them in training, and I think he his no dimwit but actually smart, but even when he knew still  choose to ignore, he convinced himself that there was nothing wrong in what he was doing. There are signs though, that Ward has an idea that it was not all right. Unlike Garrett, who doesn't care about right or wrong, to whom everything is right that serves him, Ward has a touch of conscience.

Edited May 11, 2014 by katusch

[kitlee625]

There are signs though, that Ward has an idea that it was not all right. Unlike Garrett, who doesn't care about right or wrong, to whom everything is right that serves him, Ward has a touch of conscience.

 

So this is what makes Ward in my mind very dangerous and more than just a victim. Unlike Garrett, who is very egocentric and has seems to believe that there is no right and wrong, only himself versus everyone else, Ward does seem to know right versus wrong. He does care about other people (Skye, FitzSimmons, the dog), and yet he chooses to do things that are wrong and that hurt those he is close to. You can argue that this is all out of conditioning and fear, and I certainly think that that is playing a role. However, I think that it is telling that so far, despite his feelings for Skye and FitzSimmons, he has always put his and Garrett's interests first (i.e. jettisoning FitzSimmons, letting Garrett's plan play out after Skye was shot and not going to Coulson with the truth).

[millahnna]

Well I'd assume that he'd take a little more warming up to go into full on Disobey Garret mode.  But I totally agree with your point that him having a conscience makes him potentially more dangerous, depending on some critical future choices I'm assuming he'll have to make.  It's sort of like my stray vs. feral cat analogy; a feral cat is only dangerous if you corner it.  A stray cat that's gone wild is the one you really have to watch out for.  It's not a perfect analogy (because I guess he was taken in by a heinous cat fighting ring and raised to be bad instead of being a stray, strictly speaking).  But it's close enough for international government spy/superhuman ability agency work.  Or something.

[Danny Franks]

I don't even watch this show any more, but I find it odd that Ward is apparently incapable of redemption, yet Natasha "I have red in my ledger" Romanoff is fine and dandy as a hero.

 

The bits of information given about her past suggest she was a very bad girl, and she was slated for death until Hawkeye decided she could be saved. Do people imagine she only killed other bad people? What makes her better than Ward (other than the fact she's played by Scarlett Johansson, of course)?

 

If one can be redeemed by the shadowy organisation of murky morals and ultimate pragmatism, then so can the other.

Edited May 11, 2014 by Danny Franks

[kitlee625]

Well, Danny Franks, that is a big part of the debate, but essentially my thoughts are that Romanoff acknowledges her responsibility for her past actions and chooses to redeem herself for what she's done in the past. Ward continues to insist that he is not responsible for his past and current actions because he is "just following orders" and has not IMO given any indication that he wants to change. So while he certainly could change and redeem himself, the show has not indicated that he wants to change.

 

But that certainly seems to be up for debate, with both sides pointing to a variety of things that Ward has done/said in the past few episodes. If you're interested, I definitely recommend getting caught up on the show. The tone has shifted, and it's become darker and IMO more interesting and complicated since "Turn, Turn, Turn."

 

And Millahnna, I agree with you. I think that it comes down to the choices that Ward makes, and hopefully in the finale Ward's actions will make his loyalties clearer.

Edited May 11, 2014 by kitlee625

[Cranberry]

It's also probably as simple as that we, the audience, don't know the specifics of Natasha's past misdeeds, and we haven't seen her kill anyone that we care about, whereas we've watched Ward kill two popular recurring characters and drop probably two of the most popular characters on the show out of a plane. Like kitlee625 said, we also know that Natasha regrets and is trying to make up for her past. Ward so far appears unrepentant, or at best, somewhat regretful but weak.

[Danny Franks]

Well, Danny Franks, that is a big part of the debate, but essentially my thoughts are that Romanoff acknowledges her responsibility for her past actions and chooses to redeem herself for what she's done in the past. Ward continues to insist that he is not responsible for his past and current actions because he is "just following orders" and has not IMO given any indication that he wants to change. So while he certainly could change and redeem himself, the show has not indicated that he wants to change.

 

 

Well, no one shows any indication that they want to change until they want to change. That's often the hardest part, isn't it? The realisation and then the belief that it might be possible. The impression I've had from Natasha is that she really didn't have any intention of changing until Hawkeye pressed the issue. Sidenote: I really want to see a Black Widow movie that explores her backstory in detail.

 

It's not like she's the only one in the Marvel movie universe, either. Loki, the ultimate woobie, is seen as a sympathetic figure by many, despite him killing countless people and never showing an ounce of remorse. The Winter Soldier is one of the most dangerous killers of the 20th century, but he's on a path to redemption. Even Tony Stark manufactured weapons for a living before he had his epiphany and realised they might just be used to kill people who don't deserve it. As far as I can tell, the only person with a clean conscience in the entire Marvel movie universe is Steve Rodgers.

Edited May 11, 2014 by Danny Franks

[Kromm]

It's also probably as simple as that we, the audience, don't know the specifics of Natasha's past misdeeds, and we haven't seen her kill anyone that we care about, whereas we've watched Ward kill two popular recurring characters and drop probably two of the most popular characters on the show out of a plane. Like kitlee625 said, we also know that Natasha regrets and is trying to make up for her past. Ward so far appears unrepentant, or at best, somewhat regretful but weak.

Bingo.  We're disconnected from the Black Widow's ugly past.  We aren't from Ward's.  

 

Is that "fair' on all levels? No.  But as viewers it's normal.  

[Carrie Ann]

It's also just that what we DO know of Natasha is that she wants to be better. She wants to help people and be on the "right" side as an attempt to atone for her past actions. We're not at that point in Ward's story yet (assuming we're getting there at all), so it's hard to imagine right now. But Natasha's been working toward her own personal redemption for years, which is part of what makes it believable. I'm just not sure I trust this show to take the necessary time to redeem Ward, frankly. But we'll see.

[ChelseaNH]

There are a couple of holes in the "Ward as victim" storyline.  In "The Well" we saw him toss a rope to his younger brother against his older brother's orders, so he did offer some resistance to that dominance.  And when Garrett first met him, he had run away from a military academy.  So he did have a period in his life when he wasn't with his family or with Garrett.  We don't know how long that lasted, but there was more to his life than just constant brainwashing.  I doubt Garrett was on hand during much of his time in the SHIELD academy, either.

 

Granted, he was abused for much of his life, but I'm finding the "victim" label somewhat reductive -- like that's all there is to him.

[Kromm]

There are a couple of holes in the "Ward as victim" storyline.  In "The Well" we saw him toss a rope to his younger brother against his older brother's orders, so he did offer some resistance to that dominance.  And when Garrett first met him, he had run away from a military academy.  So he did have a period in his life when he wasn't with his family or with Garrett.  We don't know how long that lasted, but there was more to his life than just constant brainwashing.  I doubt Garrett was on hand during much of his time in the SHIELD academy, either.

 

Granted, he was abused for much of his life, but I'm finding the "victim" label somewhat reductive -- like that's all there is to him.

Not to mention that the "root" of Garrett's "abuse" of him was.... leaving him alone for 6 months?  I mean... huh?  In what book is that abuse?  Even as manipulation it required Ward's active cooperation, since there's every indication that instead of stealing clothes and food from those surrounding cabins he could have just as easily stolen a vehicle and disappeared into the wind.  Thereafter Garrett put Ward into SHIELD training and the fact that we saw them again in the wilderness was just a bit of stupid writing meant to communicate some kind of continuity (whereas what it actually wound up doing was probably confusing a lot of people into thinking that Ward simply hung out in the wilderness for like 5 years straight).

[Jack Kerouac]

Thereafter Garrett put Ward into SHIELD training and the fact that we saw them again in the wilderness was just a bit of stupid writing meant to communicate some kind of continuity (whereas what it actually wound up doing was probably confusing a lot of people into thinking that Ward simply hung out in the wilderness for like 5 years straight).

 

Which would have been funnier writing.

[Jack Kerouac]

I don't even watch this show any more, but I find it odd that Ward is apparently incapable of redemption, yet Natasha "I have red in my ledger" Romanoff is fine and dandy as a hero.

 

She's very, VERY hot?

[colormeblue]

Another thing I find interesting about the Ward character is how much he has changed the show, at least for me. Prior to the Hydra reveal, I didn't care much about him at all. Sure, I thought he was good-looking in a bland kind of way but I didn't care about his relationships. He was sleeping with May? Meh. He has a spark with Simmons? Why not? He has a romantic-leaning relationship with Skye? Really? In short, I didn't care all that much and I felt that way about the other characters and the show itself to boot. At one point, we had a backlog of 5 episodes on our DVR because watching it wasn't a priority. I was about to erase it from our Record list when everything changed. Overnight, it went from "Why not watch it? We have nothing else to do" to "OMG! Agents of Shield is on tonight!"

 

Sure, it became more exciting but, for me, the big shift was because of Ward. All of a sudden, things got personal. The relationships between the characters actually mattered. Was he a triple agent? Did he really care about anyone on the team? Why does he have such a close relationship with Garrett? What makes him tick? And, the big one: how will the team feel and what will they do when they find out? And, on a shallow note, I have to admit that he went from good-looking to absolutely hot! Kind of weird, that.

 

I think the abuse aspect also raised the stakes. Clearly, people hold strong views on the subject and I think it influences our national policies from everything to defense and treatment of veterans to our child protective services, legal system and correctional facilities. So, how a person like Ward is treated matters to people and that's another reason why the Ward thread became very active here and on TWOP. If the TPTB are smart, they will capitalize on all of this and make personal relationships (not just 'ships!) more of a focus next season.

 

I think they will. This show has enough Whedon influence to understand that even if they did have trouble finding their way initially. These are the folks who made Dr. Horrible relatable and re-integrated Faith (whose journey, if you think about it, kind of parallels Ward's), Spike, Dark Willow, and, of course, Angel into their respective teams. They also are the people who made Topher and Adelle from Dollhouse go from rather despicable to heroic.

[Grammaeryn]

Excellent points colormeblue! I believe it was in the EW interview with Melissa and Jed, they said the fall of SHIELD was very big and far away in CA: TWS but on the show they were able to make the audience feel absolutely betrayed with the Ward reveal. 

[KirkB]

Except, to me, Ward was bland for most of the season because of the way he was written, acted, or both. I wasn't too invested in the character so by the time the betrayal came along I didn't care that much.

[ChelseaNH]

The primary reaction wasn't "Ward, you bastard!"  It was "hey, Ward's interesting now."  So I don't think the audience felt particularly betrayed.

[Kromm]

The primary reaction wasn't "Ward, you bastard!"  It was "hey, Ward's interesting now."  So I don't think the audience felt particularly betrayed.

It's a matter of how you look at things, I guess.  I bet more viewers felt betrayed by the death of the original Agent Patton Oswalt (and/or the attempted murders of Fitz and Simmons) than they were by the identity of the perpetrator.  To feel that Ward evoked a sense of betrayal would require that viewers give a shit about him in the first place.  Since (arguably) they didn't, he came off as a tool for something happening that the viewers may have felt betrayed by more than the actual thing that they felt betrayed them.

 

It's not clear if the showrunners actually understand that, given the way they describe things.

[Sarahastro]

It's a matter of how you look at things, I guess.  I bet more viewers felt betrayed by the death of the original Agent Patton Oswalt (and/or the attempted murders of Fitz and Simmons) than they were by the identity of the perpetrator.  To feel that Ward evoked a sense of betrayal would require that viewers give a shit about him in the first place.  Since (arguably) they didn't, he came off as a tool for something happening that the viewers may have felt betrayed by more than the actual thing that they felt betrayed them.

 

It's not clear if the showrunners actually understand that, given the way they describe things.

 

I think it depends on what part of the fandom you look at. While I had the same reaction as ChelseaNH, there certainly are fans who felt betrayed. There is even a twitter campaign to show support for Ward (although I can't quite tell what the message is).

[Kromm]

There is even a twitter campaign to show support for Ward (although I can't quite tell what the message is).

Possible message candidates:

 

--Murder people, but make a sad face for a split second when nobody is looking, and ye shall be forgiven?

--Be an attractive white male bad boy character, and it's alright? (The Angel Complex)

--All Dogs Go To Heaven, so if you shoot one, it's probably okay in the end anyway?

 

We could do a hundred of these!  Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

[caseylane]

Knowing that RL serial killers get fan mail and married, I'm not surprised.

[beadgirl]

 

--Murder people, but make a sad face for a split second when nobody is looking, and ye shall be forgiven?

--Be an attractive white male bad boy character, and it's alright? (The Angel Complex)

--All Dogs Go To Heaven, so if you shoot one, it's probably okay in the end anyway?

Heh.  There's also "My love will fix him!"

 

I never found Ward that interesting a character, so that's why I liked this storyline, and the fact that they seem committed to it. (Plus, it's made me like Skye more.)  Whether he remains evil, or undergoes a genuine redemption, I'm ok with it, assuming the redemption is long and hard and earned, and results in him doing good for its own sake and not to get into Skye's pants, and doesn't fix all the broken trust.  "I had a moment of regret; all better now! Bygones!" would make me stabby.

[Danny Franks]

I found Ward one of only two interesting characters on the show. And even if I could get past the audio-visual valium that is Agent Coulson, I'm not going to watch just for Simmons.

[JTMacc99]

I figure even if Hydra is actively a nazi organization, they likely don't pitch it that way to new recruits.  The word has too much (well earned) baggage so they likely stay away from that angle of it.  I'd bet they sell it differently to every single person (power, self esteem, money, fame, scientific discovery etc.). 

For me, it doesn't matter if Hydra is a Nazi organization or if it simply represents a Nazi organization for our story. Either way works for me for how I think they're portraying Ward. In my eyes, he is an SS troop. He's the fanatical follower, and it doesn't matter whether or not he's in it for the ideology, for self preservation, or because he's following a charismatic leader. He's on the wrong side of the good versus bad fight. And since the bad side of this one is essentially Nazis, his actions while fighting for that side are unforgiven. Just like they would have been for actual SS troops after the war was over.

Edited May 23, 2014 by JTMacc99

[millahnna]

Yeah they really have set up an apt as hell comparison with him. It's kind of fascinating.

[kitlee625]

For me, it doesn't matter if Hydra is a Nazi organization or if it simply represents a Nazi organization for our story. Either way works for me for how I think they're portraying Ward. In my eyes, he is an SS troop. He's the fanatical follower, and it doesn't matter whether or not he's in it for the ideology, for self preservation, or because he's following a charismatic leader. He's on the wrong side of the good versus bad fight. And since the bad side of this one is essentially Nazis, his actions while fighting for that side are unforgiven. Just like they would have been for actual SS troops after the war was over.

 

Absolutely. I've read a lot of debate as to whether Ward is "truly" a Nazi or if Hydra are Nazis. I agree that Ward is a Nazi similar to those guys who are guards in concentration camps. Probably not there because they share in Hitler's ideology, but because of self preservation or following a charismatic leader. What's interesting is that the writers have chosen to extend that parallel but having Ward invoke the Nuremberg defense: "just following orders."

 

What I think is also interesting is that the writers chose to make that parallel by having Skye call him a Nazi and then explain to the Ward / the audience why she is saying that. The writers of Captain America: The Winter Soldier chose to avoid that connection, but by including it in Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., I think the writers wanted to add additional weight to the Ward's decision to join Hydra. They could have described it simply as an enemy spy organization, but by connecting it to Nazis, they created a crime that to many viewers would be very hard to forgive.

Edited May 24, 2014 by kitlee625

[FurryFury]

Thing is, Ward was my favorite character after 1x17, and kinda still is. I don't find the show particularly well-written, and most of the characters are really quite shallow, so Ward's the only one to break the mold, so far. I'm definitely interested in the way he's going to develop, and I was glad he wasn't killed off in the finale (although I was underwhelmed with his actions, I expected something more climactic and important). But a redemption, or, at least, one written not well enough, has the potential to assassinate his character for good, and maybe the show as well. It's been a while since I've seen on TV a redemption I've bought, and there are really lots of examples on current shows of people loved by a portion of fans given absolutely undeserved and underwritten redemption arcs (Regina of Once Upon A Time is a particularly bothersome example, given how front-and-center she is on the show). So while I do feel that Ward may be redeemed, at least to a point, I'm not sure I trust these writers with that task. Joss has given us Faith and Angel (and failed with Spike, but it's still not quite clear how much of that is Marty Noxon's fault, because Spike on "Angel" was sublime), but that's not him, that's just some, frankly, mediocre writers who happen to be his relatives. I'm wary, I'm definitely wary.

[Kromm]

So, here's my theory, and I'm sticking to it. I think Ward will be redeemed. I think the show is foreshadowing it by giving him having a soft spot for Skye. It proves he can feel something for someone. It was to set him apart from Garrett, who felt nothing for nobody. I think his back story was supposed to make us garner sympathy for the character. When you are that screwed up at that young an age, your mind is a bad place to be. Enter someone who can take full advantage of that. Who sees a person who will blindly follow him. I think Garrett dying and him being alone in this world, will change him and his views 

 

I do like that he wasn't brainwashed or anything.

 

Now, another way they could go is doing something to him to make him good. Like a chip in his brain or something. It doesn't seem totally out of the question for this show.

Do they dig up the bodies of the people he murdered and reanimate them too?

 

I think the line which is hard to cross is that he wasn't even a true believer.  People killing for a cause, maybe you can wiggle some redemption out of it, because then there's a story about them uncovering that the ends don't always justify the means.  The fact that Ward killed cold-bloodedly is somewhat insurmountable, IMO. He was his own man, not controlled by anyone, but because he had a bad childhood and had a father figure tell him they needed to topple world governments and mass murder tens of millions (remember, by implication they were part of the HYDRA plot from Cap 2, who's goal was the annihilation of a good part of the human race) so that faux-Daddy could get a serum somehow to save his life.  Well... I suppose that's KIND of a cause, right?  Except its freaking NUTS--it doesn't even compute as a logical path of action, especially given Garrett's own "do for yourself" philosophy that poor Wardy did all that just to save the life of someone ELSE (and someone who by most meters, showed himself to be pretty unworthy).  I mean if we try to connect these dots as Ward simply being misguided, then we'd also be dealing with someone with problems at a level that make him inherently dangerous--who'd need an Asylum and decades of therapy at best vs. a redemption storyarc.

[Jeezaloo]

I think SHIELD was secret until the Chituari invasion in Avengers.

 

 

 

Possibly, although that raises the interesting question of just how you hide a mega-aircraft carrier that can fly...