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Grant Ward: Hates the Patriots


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We still don't know what Trip meant by Ward's family being "the cable version of the Kennedys."  They'll probably get around to explaining it in about 20 episodes, at which point we can all ooh and ahh over how everything is connected.

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We still don't know what Trip meant by Ward's family being "the cable version of the Kennedys."  They'll probably get around to explaining it in about 20 episodes, at which point we can all ooh and ahh over how everything is connected.

 

I've read speculation online that this is a reference to a comic book character, Senator Stewart Ward, but since I don't read comic books, I don't know anything about him.

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We still don't know what Trip meant by Ward's family being "the cable version of the Kennedys."  They'll probably get around to explaining it in about 20 episodes, at which point we can all ooh and ahh over how everything is connected.

 

I think you are being overly critical of the show runners. They put some throw away lines in there but a lot of things have been connected, and not just to make the audience ooh and ahh

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The "ooh and ahh" part was actually critical of people who think having to wait 20 episodes for an explanation (of something apparently rather significant in a character's background) is evidence of how well-structured the show is.  Which also ends up as a criticism of the showrunners, but not, I contend, overly so.

 

Who, me, bitter?

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The "ooh and ahh" part was actually critical of people who think having to wait 20 episodes for an explanation (of something apparently rather significant in a character's background) is evidence of how well-structured the show is.  Which also ends up as a criticism of the showrunners, but not, I contend, overly so.

 

Who, me, bitter?

 

This is a bit off-topic for the Grant Ward thread, but I agree. I do enjoy the show for the most part, but the pacing has been very unsatisfying. Most of the first season has been filler with these little hints at a more interesting story that they put off telling for way too long. Like IMO post-Hydra Ward is much more interesting than pre-Hydra Ward, but I keep thinking, "Seriously, show? You couldn't have given some of this information earlier so I might care that he turned out to be Hydra? Or I might suspect that he was Hydra?"

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I'm kind of curious about one thing, concerning fanbase's perspective of Grant Ward at the moment. Is it just a "moment" thing and will quickly change if the wind blows in different direction, or are the viewers consistent in their opinions?

 

Many people are very vocal about how Ward is not redeemable, how he's done so much bad shit and killed everyone, so he can't never-ever be forgiven. And, well, yes he killed a lot of characters that we, the viewers, knew and maybe liked (I didn't like Hand, but many people did). I kind of wonder if the response would be so vocal if he was only killing unnamed Redshirts. But that's not my point.

 

My point is that a few weeks ago the audience was outraged by the apparent rape scene from the Lorelei episode. The main accusation, toward TPTB, was that there wouldn't be any follow up to Ward being violated. And, well, there wasn't. But nobody seems to care.

 

Now, my question is – is it because it's a water under a distant bridge and what happened a few episodes ago doesn't matter anymore? If that was the case, I'd think that if TPTB did a backflip now and made Ward a lovable puppy-hugging softie, the audience would forgive all the sins and in three weeks time he'd be allowed back into the fold. Or is it some other explanation – like maybe, bacause he's a villian and he killed Hand and Patton Oswald, then maybe he deserved to be raped? Or maybe, because he's a villian, in retrospect it wasn't rape at all?

 

Or maybe, simply, different people were vocal about the "Lorelei/Ward sexytiems being really a rape" scene and different are now vocal about him being too evil to be allowed to live. Yeah, that's probably it… Well.

 

Either way, I am of the opinion that a redemption storyline (albeit a long, maybe even a season-long one) for Ward is possible (and it has to do with him being violated on multiple occasion, some of them being my own (over)interpretation, but some being really on screen, like the beating he got from Garrett). No, I don't think that he can be redeemed at the end of this season, but I hope TPTB will show us a hint of why he might, one day. And I hope a significant chunk of the audience will believe it.

Edited by telane
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The only "redemption" would be either that he's overtly being mind-controlled, or that an UNBELIEVABLE amount of fakery is going on (because even if Hand and the others on the plane were somehow fake deaths, I don't see how Agent Patton Oswalt could be--the only possible fakeout there would be if Patton actually worked for HYDRA and Ward had to stop some kind of triple cross).

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I can't speak to the fanbase's response to Grant Ward, but I can speak to mine. My opinion of Grant Ward is not a "moment" thing. Grant Ward has murdered seven people. Four of these may have been "unnamed Redshirts," but that does not make those deaths less important to me. Let's not forget that two of those murdered men were killed after they showed Ward mercy by letting him into the Fridge because they believed that he was about to be killed by Hydra. Perhaps TPTB have a redemption arc planned for him, but I do not see how. It's not just the fact that he's murdered so many people, it's the way that it has been showed. All of his victims have been killed before they had a chance to defend themselves. Several were unarmed. At least four were shot in the face. Ward has not shown a single ounce of guilt or remorse over any of these deaths. All of this to me points to the fact that the writers have no plans to redeem him.

 

In your post, telane, you brought up the fact that Ward was raped by Lorelei, but I'm not exactly sure what that has to do with all of the killing he has done. I can think that that scene in "Yes Men" was disgusting and inappropriate and offensive and still think that Ward is an irredeemable murderer for all of the reasons I listed above. Being raped does not excuse murdering innocent people. Being an abuse victim does not automatically mean that a person is going to be redeemed. If Ward showed the slightest hesitation or remorse, then I would consider the possibility that he might be redeemed. But until that happens, my personal opinion of Grant Ward is that he is a victim who is also a villain.

Edited by Sarahastro
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I'm not exactly sure what that has to do with all of the killing he has done

 

It has something to do in my head but I'm not sure if I can explain how my brain works. It's entirely possible that I see connections where there aren't any.

 

You're right about him not showing hesitation or remorse. However, we don't really know what drives him. And to his defense - we didn't see joy either, while we did see some amount of malicious satisfaction form Garrett (his "No hard feelings, Bob" to the guard he killed at the Tahiti bunker was a duh! moment for me, even before we knew he was evil). To me Ward is simply a (mindless) soldier. He follows orders. Why he follows them blindly is another question. But that's something that may change.

 

And I get it that most people aren't as invested in his character as I am (I tend to like the least likeable characters on the shows, I don't know why, maybe because nobody likes me either ;) but hey, I'm kind of bummed that people deliver judgement without knowing more facts. We still have a few episodes left, speaking with such firm conviction feels kind of premature, especially if it's also backed up by "he can only be redeemed if this or that, period".

 

I see a redemption possibility that is neither mind control Winter Soldier style, nor a fakeout. Granted, I couldn't sell it if my life depended on it, but I still hold out hope that TPTB are better writers than I am. Plus, no two minds have the same ideas. They might yet surprise us. Or me for that matter if they indeed have no redemption plans for him. ;)

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Any human being has a shot at redemption.  I think what people are rejecting is the Magic Reset Button kind of redemption, where Ward doesn't really suffer any consequences for his actions.  For me, there's no redemption without remorse, and remorse includes a recognition that he deserves to be locked up for what he's done.

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That's all true. I'd have a much bigger problem with Ward coming back and suffering no consequences. In any real world situation, even being part of an agency like SHIELD, I would think murdering several people would at least equate to jail time. But that would take Ward out of the show anyway unless Coulson got him some kind of special dispensation. And while I have little doubt Skye, Simmons and even Fitz would probably just seem him as Ward, would Coulson, May and Trip (were he to stay around) REALLY be able to trust him anything like they did before? There is a big difference between Coulson forgiving May for lying to him and him forgiving Ward for lying to him, murdering several people including SHIELD agents, and freeing dangerous people and items into the world.

 

So yes, maybe I was a little harsh in saying redemption wasn't possible for him. Obviously it is. I just don't particularly want to see the kind of 'redemption' that usually comes with characters like him on TV. He's suspended for an episode or two (though he is still around), everybody looks funny at him for a little while, and then they all just go on about their business. Besides, I would be far more interested in Ward being an adversary for the team. I've always liked the trusted team member turns out to be a bad guy and stays that way thing, which is done far too rarely for my tastes.

Edited by KirkB
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Any human being has a shot at redemption.  I think what people are rejecting is the Magic Reset Button kind of redemption, where Ward doesn't really suffer any consequences for his actions.  For me, there's no redemption without remorse, and remorse includes a recognition that he deserves to be locked up for what he's done.

If you mean a situation where there are no consequences, oh sure.  That's the mind control option.  But otherwise?  There's no redemption from cold blooded spree killing and terrorism.  I mean unless there's some ridiculous situation where instead of being Nazis, HYDRA are now secret Patriots and magically the people they were killing were secret "bad guys".

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I think what people are rejecting is the Magic Reset Button kind of redemption, where Ward doesn't really suffer any consequences for his actions. 

 

I would (and will) reject that kind of redemption too. But the key operative here is "will". It has not happened yet. If it does I'll be bitching with the rest of you, but until it does, I'm in a waiting mode.

 

For me, there's no redemption without remorse, and remorse includes a recognition that he deserves to be locked up for what he's done
There's no redemption from cold blooded spree killing and terrorism

 

 

As I said, I don't consider what Ward did murder or "spree killing". I consider him a soldier who follows orders mostly out of loyalty to his commanding officer and obligation toward the side he's fighting for. I guess it begs a wider outlook question -- are all soldiers murderers? But that would be a completely different discussion.

"Terrorism" is a label that is overused in our times, mainly for all the military actions that our (yours, mine, theirs) country disagrees with. Antagonist countries may consider our actions terrorism. Same with Shield and Hydra. 

 

About the remorse/hesitation thing. Well, I took another glance at all those "murder" scenes and his almost-murder of May, and I see remorse in Ward, albeit compartmentalized. I guess that's a YMMW matter.

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I would (and will) reject that kind of redemption too. But the key operative here is "will". It has not happened yet. If it does I'll be bitching with the rest of you, but until it does, I'm in a waiting mode.

 

 

As I said, I don't consider what Ward did murder or "spree killing". I consider him a soldier who follows orders mostly out of loyalty to his commanding officer and obligation toward the side he's fighting for. I guess it begs a wider outlook question -- are all soldiers murderers? But that would be a completely different discussion.

"Terrorism" is a label that is overused in our times, mainly for all the military actions that our (yours, mine, theirs) country disagrees with. Antagonist countries may consider our actions terrorism. Same with Shield and Hydra. 

I get that on one level, but HYDRA remember have always been posed as Nazis. Literally Nazis, not figuratively.  And while in a theoretical sense Nazis had notions of duty and command necessity and honor just as much, we're dealing with AUDIENCE REDEMPTION, not some theoretical.  No contemporary audience is going to view actions willingly done in service of a Fourth Reich as potentially "redemptive", even if an intellectual justification can be made.  The point is that an audience has to be able to accept that character as "excused" for their actions, and very few audience members, in my opinion, are going to sit back and say "well he was just doing his duty as a good Nazi" and let it go.

Edited by Kromm
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I guess for me it's impossible, on a mental level, to identify comic book, or tv show (that kind of tv show) nazis, with real world nazis. For me, they could be called Bad Wolfs or Evil Bunnies and it would have similar emotional response - depending solely on what was shown on screen. If anything, I consider the use of term "nazi" as an exploit and ignore it. I haven't seen teh Movies either - except for the Avengers, so first Cap America mythology is also foreign to me. Maybe Hydra was more evil there, than it is on the show.

 

But you have a point. Reference to a term ingrained into collective consciousness may have a certain effect on the way some actions are perceived. Even if it's cheap storytelling. I guess time will tell what TPTB will actually do and how the general audience will react to it.

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I guess for me it's impossible, on a mental level, to identify comic book, or tv show (that kind of tv show) nazis, with real world nazis. For me, they could be called Bad Wolfs or Evil Bunnies and it would have similar emotional response - depending solely on what was shown on screen. If anything, I consider the use of term "nazi" as an exploit and ignore it. I haven't seen teh Movies either - except for the Avengers, so first Cap America mythology is also foreign to me. Maybe Hydra was more evil there, than it is on the show.

 

But you have a point. Reference to a term ingrained into collective consciousness may have a certain effect on the way some actions are perceived. Even if it's cheap storytelling. I guess time will tell what TPTB will actually do and how the general audience will react to it.

The big argument is does Hydra have actual Nazi roots with the double Seig Heil salute substituting Heil Hydra for Heil Hitler which by Garrett's response will have seen. Or they are not double Nazis because in Captain America The First Avenger Hydra assinated the SS Inspector General sent to reign them in and the Red Skull's map had Berlin along with New York being nuked

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I guess for me it's impossible, on a mental level, to identify comic book, or tv show (that kind of tv show) nazis, with real world nazis. For me, they could be called Bad Wolfs or Evil Bunnies and it would have similar emotional response - depending solely on what was shown on screen. If anything, I consider the use of term "nazi" as an exploit and ignore it. I haven't seen teh Movies either - except for the Avengers, so first Cap America mythology is also foreign to me. Maybe Hydra was more evil there, than it is on the show.

 

But you have a point. Reference to a term ingrained into collective consciousness may have a certain effect on the way some actions are perceived. Even if it's cheap storytelling. I guess time will tell what TPTB will actually do and how the general audience will react to it.

 

I don't think it's really fair to call this "cheap storytelling." The TV show exists in the larger Marvel Cinematic Universe and is based on the comic books, and the writers have to be consistent with that (I say that as someone who does not read comic books and has not seen all of the MCU movies, so I am also in the dark on some of these mentions). However, you make a good point that so far we have been told very little about Hydra on the TV show except that they are bad and they do evil scientific experiments. It is also interesting that Hydra does not seem to have the same beliefs about "racial purity" as the Nazis despite the fact that in the movies and comic books they are literally Nazis (Hydra is a scientific research group in Nazi Germany that builds weapons and tries to make super soldiers; they revolt when they decide that the Nazis aren't going far enough on their path to world domination). It will be interesting to see how much information we get in the show about Hydra's ideology, evil scientific projects, and goals.

Edited by Sarahastro
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What I mean by "cheap storytelling" is the use of watered down RW horror, to evoke emotional response in the viewer (or comic book reader; that's not an accusation against the show, but against the MCUniverse in general), instead of creating an original evil force. Not to mention that even though Hydra is supposed to be double-nazi, they seem in fact to be a far wash-off of nazi-lite. Which is actually understandable in a setting of an adventure story meant for fun. Nazis from MCUniverse do not equal RW nazis.

 

But that means the argument that Ward serves the nazis is kind of moot for me. I can't consider him as aiding someone who created Concentration Camps, because that's something we won't see on screen, or even hear mentioned (which is good -- this show is meant for fun, not for rising awareness). He serves people who have no respect for human life, that I agree with, but then again, no military respects human life, because if it did, its very reason for existing would be undermined. What brings me back to my argument that I perceive Ward as a soldier and nothing more horrendous than that.

Edited by telane
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Don't forget that Captain America was first published in 1941, when Nazis were a very real, immediate threat. I'm sure that is why they included them in the Marvel Universe, not for a cheap emotional response, but to connect to the fears and struggles of their readers. I mean who wants to read about mythical supervillians when your dad is off fighting real Nazis?

 

Of course this almost means that they got to have Captain America punch Hitler in the face several times.

 

But I do agree that we need to see more about Hydra on the show. I think honestly that the next few episodes will really show which path the writer intend to take Ward down, and I am interested in learning what it is.

Edited by kitlee625
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I imagine the Hydra that exists now is fairly far removed from the old Hydra, which was really only Nazi in the sense Schmidt worked for Hitler until he decided to go off and take over the world himself. The guys now, even the most loyal ones, are probably in it for the money or power. How many of them do you think really follow the kind of ideology espoused by the Red Skull and, to a lesser extent, Zola? And that's not even taking into account guys like Garrett (and I'm guessing Ward) who really just want to show how bad ass they are? So while Hydra might have its roots in Nazi Germany I don't think that's been what they are really about for a long time.

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Tonight's episode hit the Nazi thing head on.  The Marvel world certainly DOES regard HYDRA as Nazis.  Literal Nazis.  Someone like Ward doesn't consider himself that way, as far as I can figure, because he was brought on by someone who didn't frame the job that way for him.  

 

And next week's episode I think will hit this all dead on.

 

It won't redeem Ward, I think.  The show will lose credibility with ME at least if they really try and bring him back into the fold.  But they'll cobble together some structure to gray it up a bit, I suppose.  At the same time, despite Skye's "saving" him, and Ward's claims to actually love her, I'm glad that (so far) other than not allowing Ward to die she's dead set on seeing him as a mass murderer at the very least, even if he can step back from "Nazi".  Yes, he used the "I'm a soldier" defense, but that only washes if you believe in your cause.  If you are a soldier for hire, and then double deal people under that guise, it's a lot more black than gray.

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I think they have already put the first step in place--not for Ward's redemption, that's still going to take an awful lot of work--for Ward turning on Garrett. By Garrett telling Deathlok to shoot him, proving he was perfectly willing to kill him to convince Skye to do what they wanted, I think Ward may for the first time have an idea that Garrett doesn't actually give a shit about him. I'm not sure Ward is full on Hydra, at least not in the arms outstretched, "Hail!" sense, I think it's more loyalty to Garrett, and for the first time he begins to realize the feelings aren't mutual. Meanwhile, Skye genuinely cared for him and he had real friends and a purpose on the Bus.

Edited by KirkB
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I agree that they planted the seed for Ward to turn on Garrett, not just because of Skye but also because Garrett ordered him killed. It's interesting to see where Ward is going to go from here. Personally I could see him either joining up (or trying to join up) with Team Coulson again, or becoming his own rogue agent (and possible Big Bad). What I think would be interesting is the latter possibility, particularly because after this episode and the anger/betrayal from Skye, etc., I don't see Team Coulson taking him back in unless it is a long way down the redemption road. And I would love to see what Ward would do if he broke with Garrett to win Skye's love, then was told that it wasn't enough to forget what he had done. Would that inspire him to be a good man, or just drive him further to Evil Mustasche Twirling Villian-land?

Edited by kitlee625
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Giant eye-roll at the "nobody appreciates how hard this has been for me."  Darn-tootin' we don't.  Go compartmentalize some of that self-pity.

 

 

So it was nice to see Deathlok give him the old "It wasn't personal" speech.  As Parker once said, "Sucks to be on the wrong side of that."

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I was thinking they planned on redeeming Ward, regardless of whether it makes sense or not, but now I'm starting to think instead they're planning to have him go out in some big heroic sacrifice, perhaps saving Skye.

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I was thinking they planned on redeeming Ward, regardless of whether it makes sense or not, but now I'm starting to think instead they're planning to have him go out in some big heroic sacrifice, perhaps saving Skye.

That's been on my mind since the moment they started this plot direction, actually.  The season ender would be the logical place for it.

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It would be much more fun if it's revealed that Skye's secret power really is to make everyone go all woobie for her, and Ward discovers that the one emotion he's been feeling is really phony (a la the Enchantress), so he rejects all emotions and goes full-on EEEEEEVIL.

 

But ultimately, I want May to shoot him because I trust her to pull the trigger.

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That's been on my mind since the moment they started this plot direction, actually.  The season ender would be the logical place for it.

Real world stuff replacing Ward with Trip would appease ethnic bean counters since there are no dark skinned people on the main cast and while Ron Glass may show up again I think Samuel L. Jackson would be held for bigger things

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(edited)

Yeah, imo, they're either going to kill Ward in a heroïc/redeeming type of sacrifice that will leave Skye heartbroken, or they're gonna have him go "tortured rogue w/ a tragic background", who'll go on his personal crusade vs the bad guys who made him what he is, who'll be a part-time antagonist-but-not-really whom Team Coulson will keep bumping into, who'll try to convince Skye that he's not totally evil, and who'll end up helping the team every now and then, up until Skye forgives him.

 

In both cases... meh.

Edited by Kaoteek
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I'm strangely torn on this whole issue and really wish the PTB would make an announcement on season two one way or the other.

 

On the one hand, I can't really see a reasonable redemption arc for Ward -- I was SUPER pleased that Skye's response to him was unrelenting disgust and outrage without an iota of "maybe there's still good inside" dewy-eyed bullshit -- but at the same time I would feel really bad for Brett Dalton to have to leave the show.  Apart from the fact that he's easy on the eyes, I always feel badly for young actors who think they just got a career-making role that turn out to be ... not.  I mean, a full-season run leading a network show is nothing to sneeze at but I'm sure when he signed the contract he was looking forward to several years of regular employment and access to the larger MCU.  Being written out just as the show is getting good would have to hurt, you know?  (You could even formulate that as "getting written off IN ORDER FOR the show to get good".  Ouch.)

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It would be much more fun if it's revealed that Skye's secret power really is to make everyone go all woobie for her

 

They've basically already said as much (the whole village dying to protect her and all of that), though  the direction you took that in is kind of hilariously extreme.

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(edited)

It's interesting that in each episode, they just keep digging the "Ward is evil" hole even deeper. Not only does he not express remorse for his actions, he yells at Skye for not understanding how hard all of this (lying, murdering) has been on him. Cry me a river, dude.

 

I'm not sure if any of them died, but we can add assaulting five cops to the list of Ward's crimes since becoming Hydra. Two of those were not even attacking him -- they were helping Skye get away from him, so he shot them. IMO that scene played out more like a deranged kidnapper trying to keep their victim from escaping than a good man trying to protect the woman he loves. I guess it's still possible that they're going to redeem him somehow, but with every episode it seems less likely.

Edited by Sarahastro
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I hope it does lead to a redemption arc but in a fresh way. I like Ward and I will be uber irritated if they kill him off so tritely, like giving his life for the team. If they can turn Ward back to the good side, he could be a valuable asset (like the Black Widow). Hydra still outnumbers them and has the villains and gadgets to make it very difficult. Ward knows a lot about Hydra and could help the team figure out how to fight them. Plus, it provides dramatic tension for the team in figuring out how and when to trust him, what to do with their feelings of betrayal, and for Ward to determine how to be truly good. Wasn't part of the problem with the earlier episodes that the team was so comfortable with one another that they were boring? Integrating Ward, their previous protector, back into the team as someone who would have to be watched closely -- someone they can no longer trust to keep them safe -- would keep everyone on their toes.

 

I think Ward has a backstory that lends believability to him doing these things for good reasons (for him). If all you know growing up is violence, particularly violence you are forced to commit at someone else's behest, then it makes sense that you align yourself with the most powerful person in the room. They will protect you so at least *you* aren't the one getting beaten. If you never know goodness, how are you supposed to be good? Plus, I think Ward, at least for now, views Garrett as his family. He mentioned that Garrett took him out of a bad position when he was an impressionable teenager and has several times talked about what he owes him. Kids in dysfunctional (or absent) family situations often align themselves with others who guarantee protection, care, and a sense of belonging. That's why gangs are so prevalent and hard to dissolve. So, if Garrett was the most powerful person Ward knew who gave him not only an escape but also a new family, then yeah, I can see Ward being loyal to him.

 

Perhaps I am giving the showrunners too much credit but I hope that with all of their hints about Ward's belief in Garrett that this is where they are going. What do you do when your "family" (Garrett) turns on you and everything you thought was true turns out to be a lie? Where do you go from there? What happens when you want to become part of a new family (Coulson's) but don't know how, especially when they all seem so morally superior to you? BTW, I think Skye's "goodness" is one reason Ward is so enamoured of her. Her idealism (remember when she talked about how beautiful it was that Peru's people led an uprising) and unsullied character had to be new to him. And I think that her outrage and disgust hit him hard. He is so used to being "everyone's type" and getting what he wants that her rejection was painful. Add to that Mike Peterson's wonderful, "It wasn't personal" and I think Ward is ripe for a takeover.

 

Prior to the Hydra reveal, this show suffered from too much superficiality. Ward can provide the much-needed depth to this show. After all, in the real world, most "evil" people still have to be dealt with. Few of them are easily dispatched through death or prison. How do you learn to trust someone who has betrayed you? How do you manage your feelings of anger when you need that person's help? How do you atone for such horrible actions? With all the violence in the world, there are plenty of people walking around who have a lot to answer for, most especially soldiers who, like Ward, were just following orders. How do you live with that? And how do we, as a society, live with the fact that we forced them to do these things, acts that left to their own devices they probably would not have committed? Accountability, atonement and redemption are powerful concepts that could make the show into something really unique and interesting if they just have the guts to go there.

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That would be more possible if this were the Grant Ward show.  But there's the rest of the team to deal with.  How are they ever going to trust him again?  And if they don't trust him, how can they work with him, let alone live with him?  Even if they don't have the Bus, I don't see them all renting their own apartments.

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(edited)

@colormeblue, thank you for this post. You said everything I thought, only so much better. Especially this:

 

If all you know growing up is violence, particularly violence you are forced to commit at someone else's behest, then it makes sense that you align yourself with the most powerful person in the room. If you never know goodness, how are you supposed to be good?

 

 

As for Ward not showing remorse, well, I don't see how he could with his current mindset (although as I mentioned earlier I see hints of remorse, or at least lack of psychopathic joy that Garrett shows ("no hard feelings Bob", "it was too good a line")). Ward doesn't kill for the pure thrill of killing.

 

I think the way he talked to Skye (you don't understand me, boo) is – despite him being childish in the worst sense of the word, I don't disagree @Sarahastro, that he's an ugly human being at the moment – still, in my opinion this is a very well done, psychologically plausible characterization. But it doesn't mean that he won't realize that he had done bad things. The whole point of TPTB "digging the "Ward is evil" hole even deeper" is to make stakes real. His killing known and liked characters made stakes as real as they could possibly be. But all this only increases my faith that TPTB will actually pull Ward's redemption storyline off in a manner that will be both satisfying and believable. And that it will not last two episodes, but much, much longer. *crosses fingers*

 

I've read a fanfiction story about Ward lately and there was one sentence that really struck me: "sometimes that redeemed world is even more amazing than the one that never fell". There's beauty in redemption storyline. But one has to like that type of storylines. I like them. 

Edited by Lisin
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(edited)

That would be more possible if this were the Grant Ward show.  But there's the rest of the team to deal with.  How are they ever going to trust him again?  And if they don't trust him, how can they work with him, let alone live with him?  Even if they don't have the Bus, I don't see them all renting their own apartments.

 

Yes, this is one of the reasons why I don't think that the writers will redeem Ward. Remember Coulson's responses to Skye's and May's betrayal earlier in the season. Skye has a hidden agenda and contacts her boyfriend Miles, and she wears the security bracelet for 6 episodes (1x6 through 1x11). May is revealed to have had a secret agenda (for Fury) and to have been contacting Fury, and Coulson freezes her out for 4 episodes (1x17 through 1x20). Compared to Ward, those were relatively minor betrayals, and one thing that I like about the show is that they had very real consequences for the characters. I honestly don't know what it would take for the characters (not the audience, but the characters) to forgive Ward for everything that he's done. FitzSimmons (especially Fitz) would probably be quicker to forgive Ward than Coulson and May, but I can't imagine Coulson or May letting Ward back in the clubhouse after he shot at Coulson, killed Victoria Hand, freed prisoners from the Fridge, etc, etc.

Edited by kitlee625
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Or it's possible that Coulson coming around on both the case of Skye and May will be a step in him being more willing to accept a potential redemption for Ward.  Really they could go either way at this point.

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Skye was covering for her boyfriend. As betrayals go that's a fairly minor and somewhat understandable one. SHIELD was kind of in danger from what Miles was doing but Skye didn't realize that and dumped him as soon as she found out. May was hiding things from Coulson (which he hypocritically chastised her for) but she was only following orders, something he freely admitted he did all the time himself. But Ward has actively murdered SHIELD agents (and presumably cops) of his own free will and has shown little remorse for it. I don't think what it took for Coulson to forgive Skye and May is anywhere close to the same as would it would take for him to forgive and accept Ward back. It's a superior looking past two counts of lying vs multiple murder.

 

Ward's attitude is unrepentant (ie he doesn't seem to regret any of the things he's done) but not psycopathic. Sociopathic, maybe. Garrett seems to actively enjoy the killing and pain he causes. Ward does it because he's told or because it 'needs' to be done. In many ways his actions strike me as almost childlike. As if he is doing it for daddy's attention/affection. When confronted about it he petulantly whines that they don't understand. But I'm not sure if this makes Ward a more complex and interesting character, or a simpler one.

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(edited)

Giant eye-roll at the "nobody appreciates how hard this has been for me."  Darn-tootin' we don't.  Go compartmentalize some of that self-pity.

 

I'm actually a bit worried about the many, many times they've had Ward pull the 'nobody understands me' card - anybody else think they might be setting up a reveal that Ward was actually working to undermine Hydra all along, and that that's what he's referring to? Because for a purportedly ultra-professional evil Hydra henchman he sure seems to be whining a lot. It actually made me wince during the scenes where Skye defies him - just that much more crow she'll have to eat after the 'truth' comes out.

 

Or maybe I'm just being paranoid... Hopefully the next episode will reveal that Ward is evil for real, he's much more entertaining that way.

Edited by silverstream
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Or maybe I'm just being paranoid... Hopefully the next episode will reveal that Ward is evil for real, he's much more entertaining that way.

Nope. Ward can't kill the dog. Ward can't live up to the advice from the true bad guy to "not get attached to anybody".

 

As Skye noted, he's a mur-diddly-urderer, but he actually cares about the dog and people with dog-like tendencies.

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Nope. Ward can't kill the dog. Ward can't live up to the advice from the true bad guy to "not get attached to anybody".

 

I haven't seen the episode yet but, based on comments around the web, I am fascinated by the ambiguity of this dog's fate!  There seems to be a pretty even split on those who believe Ward killed the dog from a distance or just let it go.  I wonder if the showrunners left it so vague intentionally or accidentally -- it gives new insight into those shows that show, then tell, then show again and you're like "give me some credit people!" but if there's any room for interpretation, clearly there will be interpretation!!

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I think they left it vague intentionally.

 

We only saw three things:

1. Garrett told Ward to take care of Buddy.

2. Ward couldn't do it and fired the shot into the air, which as we knew he would, caused Buddy to run off and look for whatever it is he was supposed to retrieve.

3. SOMEBODY was looking at Buddy running around through a scope.

 

The vague part was who was looking through the scope.  If it were Garrett, I think we can assume he probably shot our beloved Buddy, and there sure is heck isn't any reason to show a lab being shot dead to an audience on prime time network TV. We can also hope that if it were Garrett looking through the scope, he could have been just using the scope as binoculars to see whether or not Ward did it, and maybe he didn't shoot the dog.

 

And if it were Ward looking through the scope, I guess we could assume he just couldn't do it when the dog was staring right at him, but could do it from a distance, or we could assume he was just using the scope to see Buddy one last time.

 

But I am having a hard time figuring any way where it makes sense that Ward was looking through the scope. I thought his orders were take care of the dog, get your stuff and to join Garrett to get out of there. When exactly would he have time to pick up a rifle and look for Buddy?  It makes more sense to me that after Buddy took off running, Garrett had the rifle out to see if Ward did it or not.

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In the showrunners defense... you just don't kill the dog.

 

(OT: The only thing I remember about the Will Smith movie "I Am Legend" is that I was so anxious about what was going to happen to the dog I literally fast forwarded scenes to ensure that the dog survived and then rewound to watch it properly.)

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Is this shit really supposed to make us "forgive" Ward?

 

The one thing I'm on board with is Skye being bitter.  They'd better not mitigate that, as much as we get to see mushy "see, he's not so bad because he secretly loves Skye and Dogs" crapola.

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Regarding the dog, I immediately assumed that Ward did kill the dog, but just couldn't bear to do it when Buddy was looking at him. So he shot the pistol to get Buddy to run off, then used the hunting rifle to shoot him while he was running around looking for something that Ward had shot. Remember, right before Garrett tells him they're leaving, Ward has the rifle. Then Garrett says he will meet him at the truck and takes off without the rifle. Garrett could have had another rifle in the truck, but we definitely know that Ward had one near him.

 

Even if Ward wasn't the one to shoot him, abandoning Buddy in the woods is still pretty bad. He can't hunt for himself, he only seems to know how to retrieve things, and he's been completely devoted to Ward for five years. Not shooting Buddy isn't saving him, it's condemning him to a slow death by starvation.

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This: 

 

But ultimately, I want May to shoot him because I trust her to pull the trigger.

 

Every time there's a hint of "redeeming" Ward, I just think of him killing two Red Shirts and then putting three slugs into Victoria Hand, all without a moment's hesitation, and I want to puke.

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