S01.E02: The Road Trip - Part 1

[Artsda]

 

Also, what's the deal with avoiding the paparazzi?  She's gone from one reality show to another.  Her life is on full display.

She said what her deal was, that she hasn't even met some of her children yet as Caitlyn. She doesn't want them meeting her on tmz or a cover of US.

[RemoteControlFreak]

She said what her deal was, that she hasn't even met some of her children yet as Caitlyn. She doesn't want them meeting her on tmz or a cover of US.

If she really cared that much about revealing herself to her children in a private setting, then she would have not gone ahead with taping a reality show before all of her children had met her.  And she certainly would not have made her first meeting with Kylie -- the only child who is actually a child -- happen over FaceTime and then show that scene to the entire world in the first episode of her show.

 

I don't believe her avoidance of the paparazzi had anything to do with protecting her children.  It had to do with protecting her appearance from public view until she could make her carefully-managed grand entrance at the ESPY's which was then used as a platform to promote the launch of I am Cait a few days later.  She learned how to promote herself and how to craft a specific public image from Kris Kardashian, the best in the business.

 

Also, on a far shallower note, who was the idiot who decided to moon the follow car from the RV and broke the window in the process?  Apparently Cait can't resist hanging out with clones of the Kardashian girls.  Jesus.

Edited August 3, 2015 by remotecontrolfreak

[iwasish]

"I can feel my IQ plummeting...."  Jenny Boylan is a breath of fresh air.    

 

Also, "Caitlyn has the right to be just as conservative as she chooses .... [but] living in the bubble is an impediment to understanding other people."

 

Obviously the show was very heavily scripted.  

 

Still, the naivete shown by Caitlyn seems real, and I don't think she'll ever get beyond defining herself by how she looks -- hair, makeup, cothes, shoes ....  As a man, she wasn't that different.  She's a product of Hollywood shallowness and that's not going to change.

 

Also, maybe it's getting used to the new breasts, but her golf swing needs work. Keeping the left arm straight is one of the keys to hitting the ball well and far.   And where did those golf balls go?  Is there a net somewhere below or is Caitlyn so self-absorbed that she doesn't even consider that.

 

Also, what's the deal with avoiding the paparazzi?  She's gone from one reality show to another.  Her life is on full display.  It seems like avoiding the paparazzi is just a way to avoid having the media scoop her appearance and activities before the carefully-planning introduction at the ESPY's and then the debut of I AM CAIT.

 

Come on, Cait. Don't pretend that you're being stalked by ISIS.  It's just a fucking camera.  The same device that bought your house and all of your cars and gave you the money for all the medical procedures that made you look so good. (With a little help from the javelin, high jump etc.)

She seemed particularly proud of the 250k price tag on a picture of her. Why? she was on the cover of VF.

She has a very competitive nature. No way she isn't enjoying the fact that she looks so much better than some of these other ladies and is clearly enjoying her moment in the spotlight. When she was speaking in her first video  about the responsibility she feels to get it right, and commented that "we don't want people dying over this" , I wanted to say to her "people ARE dying over it!!"  I really don't see her getting it, ever. She's lived too long in that bubble, she's not going to give everything she's earned over the years up and spend her days in the trenches. She couldn't give up her putting for a few days. Lets rent an RV and take a road trip, we can stay in a fancy hotel and drink expensive wine, I can only imagine what thoughts were going through the other's heads. How many clothing changes did she have over the course of that trip? I recall her bitching at Kris and Khloe when they went to Boston, and she complained nonstop about the time they spent on hair and makeup and getting dressed.

 

I see Caitlyn as wanting to get out and have a grand old time, maybe an occasional appearance at a fund raising event, where she can swoop in, in full glam and do the step and repeat and talk to a few specially selected transgender guests who will give the perfect sound bite quotes to the press about what an inspiration she is. 

This is a person who gives motivational speeches for a living!! I can only imagine what kind of advice she thinks she can give to others. She thinks her teen daughter is on board because Lady Gaga and Elton John and some other celebrities tweeted some sage words of wisdom and acceptance? Well so did 3 out of 4 of her step kids and so far only 1 has actually visited her. 

[iwasish]

Also, on a far shallower note, who was the idiot who decided to moon the follow car from the RV and broke the window in the process?  Apparently Cait can't resist hanging out with clones of the Kardashian girls.  Jesus.

 

That was Rhonda and I believe her step daughter and maybe Caitlyns blonde assistant? Luckily it was probably a production vehicle following them instead of a stranger, cause that glass appeared to hit the front of it.

 

I think the cis ladies were  bored and felt left out while the others got to know each other over drinks up front.  Hence the hijinx!!

 

Isn't Rhonda the woman Kris was BFs with according to Kim, and then went on a date to an Elton John concert with Caitlyn? Maybe that is why in one of the later KUWTK shows, Kris sent a pair of binoculars to the Kourtney and Khloe and KIm with a note stating that they were from an Elton John concert way back? THe girls didn't even know how to use them and Kim I think commented on what lousy seats they must have had. I think the message Kris was delivering went over the girls heads.

[Fostersmom]

The way Cait treated Rhonda reminded me of the way Kris used to treat Bruce - not good.

 

I was watching the episode and reading this thread at the same time. I literally read this as Cait was practically shoving Rhonda down the hill to the guest house that Rhonda didn't want to be banished to. Cait really did pull a Kris right there, the timing of the show lining up with that thought was incredibly ironic. 

 

Cait does need to invest in a voice/mannerisms coach. Actually, the mannerisms coach could really make a big enough impact that the voice probably would naturally seem softer. Seeing Cait with a whole group of women really highlighted how Cait still expects her voice/opinions to be the center of attention and that women should stop talking to hear her, like too many men expect of women. And for the love of god, stop calling them all "Babe"!

[iwasish]

I was watching the episode and reading this thread at the same time. I literally read this as Cait was practically shoving Rhonda down the hill to the guest house that Rhonda didn't want to be banished to. Cait really did pull a Kris right there, the timing of the show lining up with that thought was incredibly ironic.

Cait does need to invest in a voice/mannerisms coach. Actually, the mannerisms coach could really make a big enough impact that the voice probably would naturally seem softer. Seeing Cait with a whole group of women really highlighted how Cait still expects her voice/opinions to be the center of attention and that women should stop talking to hear her, like too many men expect of women. And for the love of god, stop calling them all "Babe"!

I wonder if this seeming need to be the center of attention, is a holdover from the years of being treated like a piece of furniture in the Kaedashian household. Especially the last several years on the show. Earlier seasons Caitlyn was more a part of the family, mocked and joked about certainly, but a part of the family. The last few years she was barely acknowledged.

I wonder also if the running joke regarding Kris's emasculation of Caitlyn between the 3 Kardashian girls, the talk of her having her balls in her purse etc, if the secret they shared about the cross dressing wasn't at the core of it.

[Human]

The term cisgender has been discussed briefly in this thread and much more in the first episode thread, but since it mentioned in this episode I figured I'd comment on it here.

 

On it's own, transgender is not an offensive term.  It describes people whose gender identity does not match their natal sex assignment.  Though it's not an inherently offensive term, it can be used in an offensive or derogatory way.  Any word can be turned offensive based on context.  Take 'girl' as an example.  It can be belittling when used to describe adult women.  It can be deeply misogynistic when used as an insult (i.e. you throw/run/talk/walk/exist like a girl).  However, used in it's proper context, it's just a word.

 

The same is true for cisgender. It's not an inherently offensive word.  It's used to describe people whose gender identity matches their natal sex assignment.  Much like other words, it can be used deprecatively.  We saw that in this episode with Cait appearing to exclude her employees and friends by calling adult women "cisgirls".  

 

Because cisgender can be used in a derogatory manner does not mean that it should never be used, just like transgender shouldn't be discarded simply because people have chosen to use it in an offensive way.  I think a large concern is also that this term is still very unfamiliar to a lot of people and it doesn't help that this unfamiliar term was introduced to many people last night in an offensive way.  I would agree that Caitlyn should be made aware that the context of her words was inappropriate and hurtful.  

Edited August 4, 2015 by Human

[nexxie]

I wonder if this seeming need to be the center of attention, is a holdover from the years of being treated like a piece of furniture in the Kaedashian household. Especially the last several years on the show. Earlier seasons Caitlyn was more a part of the family, mocked and joked about certainly, but a part of the family. The last few years he was barely acknowledged.

I wonder also if the running joke regarding Kris's emasculation of Caitlyn between the 3 Kardashian girls, the talk of her having her balls in her purse etc, if the secret they shared about the cross dressing wasn't at the core of it.

How long before Kris has a book out about all this?

[Thumper]

The term cisgender has been discussed briefly in this thread and much more in the first episode thread, but since it mentioned in this episode I figured I'd comment on it here.

 

On it's own, transgender is not an offensive term.  It describes people whose gender identity does not match their natal sex assignment.  Though it's not an inherently offensive term, it can be used in an offensive or derogatory way.  Any word can be turned offensive based on context.  Take 'girl' as an example.  It can be belittling when used to describe adult women.  It can be deeply misogynistic when used as an insult (i.e. you throw/run/talk/walk/exist like a girl).  However, used in it's proper context, it's just a word.

 

The same is true for cisgender. It's not an inherently offensive word.  It's used to describe people whose gender identity matches their natal sex assignment.  Much like other words, it can be used deprecatively.  We saw that in this episode with Cait appearing to exclude her employees and friends by calling adult women "cisgirls".  

 

Because cisgender can be used in a derogatory manner does mean that it should never be used, just like transgender shouldn't be discarded simply because people have chosen to use it in an offensive way.  I think a large concern is also that this term is still very unfamiliar to a lot of people and it doesn't help that this unfamiliar term was introduced to many people last night in an offensive way.  I would agree that Caitlyn should be made aware that the context of her words was inappropriate and hurtful.

Thanks for explaining this. Very helpful.

[iwasish]

Just rewatching and something jumped out at me. Rhonda's daughters have to be close in age to Kylie and Kendall but they look so much younger and fresher without the pounds of make up, blown out hair and sexy clothes.

No oversized sunglasses or attention drawing hats and sky high shoes.

Edited August 4, 2015 by iwasish

[CousinAmy]

 

Because cisgender can be used in a derogatory manner does not mean that it should never be used, just like transgender shouldn't be discarded simply because people have chosen to use it in an offensive way.  I think a large concern is also that this term is still very unfamiliar to a lot of people and it doesn't help that this unfamiliar term was introduced to many people last night in an offensive way.  I would agree that Caitlyn should be made aware that the context of her words was inappropriate and hurtful.  

I don't think either term is offensive; I just don't care to have myself "rebranded" by other people. I think I can define myself for myself, I don't need someone else to create a term - "ciswoman" for me. If transgender women choose to call themselves transwomen, (which is their right, and doesn't bother me) do they get to choose what to call me, too? 

[Madding crowd]

Also, again with regard to "cis women," she could also have said, "non-transgender women."  It IS shorthand.  The difference between trans and non-trans women was an important part of that particular conversation.  How else should they be differentiated in this context?

 

 

 

You could use their names such as "Wonder what Judy and Jane are doing?" or say the other women or my girlfriends, coworkers etc. I'm sure Caitlyn doesn't want to be introduced to people or referred to as transgender women Caitlyn, and I don't want to be referred to as cis woman Maddingcrowd. I don't feel I need a new name for my gender, but I certainly don't mind sharing it with people who are newly affirmed in that gender. So, if you are wondering what some of your women friends are doing, just say that or their names. 

[Human]

I don't think either term is offensive; I just don't care to have myself "rebranded" by other people. I think I can define myself for myself, I don't need someone else to create a term - "ciswoman" for me. If transgender women choose to call themselves transwomen, (which is their right, and doesn't bother me) do they get to choose what to call me, too? 

No one is being rebranded, I have no idea what you are trying to imply.  Obviously each person defines themselves in the way they choose.  That doesn't mean that we don't have broad definitions to identify groups of people.  We break people into groups by race, religion, profession, interests, education levels, income, geographic location....there is zero difference with clarifying gender identities.  If you don't want to be called a ciswoman, then perhaps ask your friends not to call you a ciswoman (and maybe get new friends?).  If you're engaged in an academic discussion about gender, gender identifying terms are going to be used.  It's like if you are in a discussion about race, racial identifying terms will be used.  

[Cosmocrush]

You have to be an undergrad at Barnard / Columbia to take one of her [boylan]  classes. And she teaches writing. She's not lecturing about the portrayal of newly-transitioned reality stars/Olympic gold medalists.

Yes, she said as much but she writes beautifully - bios, fiction, novellas , articles and blogs.   I think that was the op's original point. 

 

Yes, but when Caitlin is saying things like "what are the cis women doing", it's labeling not shorthand.

Also, again with regard to "cis women," she could also have said, "non-transgender women."  It IS shorthand.  The difference between trans and non-trans women was an important part of that particular conversation.  How else should they be differentiated in this context? 

I don't know, maybe by  their names?  "What are Rhonda and Courtney doing?      I wouldn't say, "What are the trans women doing?" at all but especially if I was referring to people I knew and everyone else had met.   Even "What are the women in the front doing?"  would have been better.  But  I think Caitlyn was excited to not only be out, but out with a group of women she considers her peers.  For the first time in her life there were more people like her than unlike her in that group. 

 

ETA: I didn't see Madding Crowd's post before posting mine.  So yeah, what she said.

Edited August 4, 2015 by Cosmocrush

[bichonblitz]

I thought it interesting and telling when Cait said that so many people were so supportive in public of her coming out at first and yet hardly any of them have bothered to come over to see her. You know, like when the camera's aren't rolling. I'm assuming she means most her family. There's going to be a lot more of that when things settle down and her coming out is not so new and exciting anymore. Cait's going to have many lonely days ahead up in that remote Malibu house. 

 

And I don't really like the way she treated her mother in the last episode. That scene where her mom was crying, saying how hard this is for her but she was genuinely trying and it will take time but Cait just sat there stone faced. The woman is in her eighties, give her a hug and tell her you love her for gods sake! I just always get such a cold feeling from Cait, same as I did from Bruce.  

[Cosmocrush]

No one is being rebranded, I have no idea what you are trying to imply.  Obviously each person defines themselves in the way they choose.  That doesn't mean that we don't have broad definitions to identify groups of people.  We break people into groups by race, religion, profession, interests, education levels, income, geographic location....there is zero difference with clarifying gender identities.  If you don't want to be called a ciswoman, then perhaps ask your friends not to call you a ciswoman (and maybe get new friends?).  If you're engaged in an academic discussion about gender, gender identifying terms are going to be used.  It's like if you are in a discussion about race, racial identifying terms will be used.  

And like racial terms, gender terms are evolving and and changing over time. (No one says 'colored' for Black anymore, not even the NAACP.). Today the word "transgender" is preferred to "transgendered"  as interpretations have changed in just a few years.   Language on this subject has evolved relatively quickly in the last 10-20 years.  

 

I respectfully disagree that there is zero difference between clarifying gender identities and identities linked to professions, education levels, religions. interests etc. however.  For one thing,  Lawyer, College graduate, Catholic, etc. are basically static - unchanged for at least a couple hundred years; generally no one in those groups feel the need to explain what those words mean or why or why not they should be used.  Gender identity isn't the same thing and transparency in the Trans part of the LGBT community is fairly recent, I think it's important to acknowledge a learning curve here.   

 

In any case, this might be a good place to post a quote from Caitlyn's new friend and show consultant Jennifer Boylan:

 

I’d also note that no one is harder on the trans community than the trans community itself. We are relentless in our desire to tell others that They Are Doing It Wrong; that being trans is not That but This; that living in our world demands constant vigilance and apology and fury. As someone involved in this work for fifteen years now, I understand the urgency of being seen (and spoken of) in the terms which we define. But I also feel that we would all benefit from a little more love, starting with the love we might show each other. There is no one right way of being trans, and there is no one right path to tread. This is true not only in our language, but in our hearts as well— the place where that language finds it's source.                                                                                                                                                                                                        

 

 

Meanwhile, I'd like to get back to talking about the show, so I'm done on this topic.

 

 

[maryis1]

I watched the show and in my own humble opinion, Kim Kardashian comes off a lot better than I'm used to seeing on the KUWTK show. She seems to really connect with Cait in a way that she did not connect to Bruce. Kanye seems more relaxed on this program than he did on his few appearances with the KUWTK.

[Kromm]

I watched the show and in my own humble opinion, Kim Kardashian comes off a lot better than I'm used to seeing on the KUWTK show. She seems to really connect with Cait in a way that she did not connect to Bruce. Kanye seems more relaxed on this program than he did on his few appearances with the KUWTK.

Or they're doing more takes (until they get it right).

 

I know that's the cynical interpretation, but it's not like we aren't all aware that this is not a documentary, but instead er.... coordinated (when not outright scripted). In other words, they (deliberately) set up specific situations--planning who will be there, why and what will be discussed, tell the participants approximately what they want to see out of them (stage directions, basically) although not specific words, and then if they don't like the result, do it again.  

[RemoteControlFreak]

I wonder if this seeming need to be the center of attention, is a holdover from the years of being treated like a piece of furniture in the Kaedashian household. Especially the last several years on the show. Earlier seasons Caitlyn was more a part of the family, mocked and joked about certainly, but a part of the family. The last few years she was barely acknowledged.

I wonder also if the running joke regarding Kris's emasculation of Caitlyn between the 3 Kardashian girls, the talk of her having her balls in her purse etc, if the secret they shared about the cross dressing wasn't at the core of it.

No, it's a holdover from the past 40 years of Jenner being a superstar athlete, all-around celebrity, the star of a reality TV show and the center of attention wherever she goes.

Edited August 4, 2015 by remotecontrolfreak
Proper name/pronoun usage

[red12]

It was hilarious to me that Cait was so pearl clutchy(lol) about the women's references to sex work when so much of her reintroduction to pop culture relevance is a result of Kim's sex tape which launched the original show. Yes, Caitlin has amazing accomplishments on her own, but she owes a large amount of her current level of fame, tv deal and Vanity Fair cover to glorified sex work. Nadia and Mary Lou were Olympic darlings and are motivational speakers too. But, I doubt paparazzi and E! are checking for them.

Also, Mr. red12 commented about how self involved this person has to be to have a 17 yr old daughter shacking with a grown man while Caitlin's main concern is her own voice sounding feminine. Just then Cait decided to pedal that bullshiznit observation about her mom being married at 17 and how that's like Kylie. Does she really need a list of things that were A-Ok in America in the 30's and 40's that are now illegal? Caitlin has the parenting instincts of an alley cat. I cannot imagine having parents as completely self involved as Kris and Cait.

Edited August 4, 2015 by red12

[bichonblitz]

Why all the concern about wearing a bathing suit? Didn't she wear the equivalent of that on the cover of Vanity Fair? Or was that ok because they photo shopped the hell out of it? 

[Cosmic Muffin]

Sure, Jbo is 15 years along this path, but she's comfortable in a bathing suit, or even without one, I think? But not so comfortable being made up and put into a designer dress. If I recall correctly, she was sort of a nerdish, hippy male, and she didn't transform into someone super concerned with their looks. Other than passing. I'm so glad she's on this show! I like the other Jen too. I'm not familiar with her, but if she's an author I'll seek out her books. She has such a lovely, gentle presence.

 

But I can't fault Caitlyn for this, for not being ready to wear a bathing suit. And there is no need for her to rush things, she has time for the fisrt bathing suit and lots of other firsts too.

Edited August 4, 2015 by Cosmic Muffin

[iwasish]

Why all the concern about wearing a bathing suit? Didn't she wear the equivalent of that on the cover of Vanity Fair? Or was that ok because they photo shopped the hell out of it? 

Don't worry, by episode 8 she'll have worn a bathing suit and gone on a date. The whole thing is scripted. It reminds me of the KUWTK episode

in which, Caitlyn took the girls to a homeless shelter so they could see what it's like outside of their luxury life style.. Caitlyn had the same look on her face at HRC. She can't comprehend the struggle they've had. It's not her fault, it's a fact. She talked about being a spokesperson, but then said something about "what if they turn on me?". I took that to be a concern that the great press and response from the public might disappear and she'd get a taste of what some of these other women have suffered.   I don't see her staying in touch with any of the women she spent time with, outside of Jennifer Boylan or Candace.  And Jennifer may not want to  

maintain a relationship anyway, she doesn;t seem the type to waste time on trivial things, like hair and makeup and her voice.

I can see Caitlyn donating money to fund a shelter or an outreach program in her name, but getting in the trenches.. not gonna happen... 

[Fostersmom]

So, basically, cis gendered means you were born with your "insides" matching your "outsides"? You were born with male or female identifiers and have felt the same male or female on the "inside", meaning cis gendered, but in the case of transgendered, the "outside" identifiers say male or female, but the "insides" say the opposite? 

 

Honestly, I don't have any issues with the word, and it seemed very natural from all the other people we saw say it in the show, but the way Cait used it seemed almost like she was just throwing it out there to be like "hey, look at the new word I know!" and just seemed really out of place. Plus, in the context she put it in, it was kind of rude. Could you imagine if the opposite had happened and the women were all in the bus and Rhonda and the assistant and daughter were like "hey, lets see what the transgenders are doing?" Uh, don't see that going over well, as it shouldn't. JBo probably was cringing at that one too. 

[millennium]

She can't comprehend the struggle they've had. It's not her fault, it's a fact. She talked about being a spokesperson, but then said something about "what if they turn on me?". I took that to be a concern that the great press and response from the public might disappear and she'd get a taste of what some of these other women have suffered.   I don't see her staying in touch with any of the women she spent time with, outside of Jennifer Boylan or Candace.  And Jennifer may not want to  

maintain a relationship anyway, she doesn;t seem the type to waste time on trivial things, like hair and makeup and her voice.

 

 

Having Jennifer Boylan and other transgender women at her disposal is just another example of the fairytale transition Jenner has purchased for herself.   Ordinary transgender people can't pick up the phone and summon an audience of renowned experts and others to advise them or correct them or boost their spirits.   If they get any help/support at all, it's from their shrinks, kindred souls on the internet, or people they meet at transgender conferences, etc.  

Edited August 4, 2015 by millennium

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Feeling 'Grand Prize' (Or Not So Much) / Cait doesn't know a lot of things, apparently. Chanel has questions.

[jonesingjay]

Caitlyn learn how to read a room. I do enjoy that this series is showing all sides of her. It doesn't feel entirely like a puff piece. I'm intrigued by the secondary characters, especially two of the woman that I Caitlyn had over to the Malibu home that I've met.

[Human]

So no one ever did figure out what happened to those golf balls?  Has anyone been hit by a golf ball flying off a mountain?  Exactly how much golf ball waste is there each year?  I know this is a show about Caitlyn, her transition, and issues the transgender community faces, but those golf balls are still really bothering me.  Is it a normal thing to just indiscriminately chuck golf balls into the wilderness?  

[Cosmocrush]

Why all the concern about wearing a bathing suit? Didn't she wear the equivalent of that on the cover of Vanity Fair? Or was that ok because they photo shopped the hell out of it? 

Probably.  But I did feel kind of bad for Caitlyn in that situation.    In my experience one of the really good things about being a woman over 40 is no longer worrying about things like putting on a swimsuit like I did in my 20s even though I looked much better in one then.     Caitlyn doesn't have those experiences; like one of the women on the show said, her joy is almost like that of an adolescent.  I laughed at Boylan asking if everyone else was wearing a swimsuit or going au naturel in the hot tub, finding out she would be the only one not wearing a suit, then putting one on despite the cameras. Life is short. 

 

So no one ever did figure out what happened to those golf balls?  Has anyone been hit by a golf ball flying off a mountain?  Exactly how much golf ball waste is there each year?  I know this is a show about Caitlyn, her transition, and issues the transgender community faces, but those golf balls are still really bothering me.  Is it a normal thing to just indiscriminately chuck golf balls into the wilderness?  

That seemed to be a stationary green, an amenity of the place,  so I'm thinking hitting golf balls off that mountain is a regular thing at that property.  The balls and clubs were probably part of the property too - I didn't see clubs in the pile of Caitlyn's luggage.   Doesn't seem like a very good idea to me though; besides the hazards and littering, golf balls are expensive. 

[freeradical]

This topic is a tough one! Discussing this delicate and complex subject while trying to word everything exactly right is stressful. I assume most of us are all trying to learn how to follow her journey with respect, I have been so happy for her and watching everything about her transition since she came out. I do like that they moderate on this site because I want to join a non judgmental conversation about her but as someone posted earlier I would like to know why they are moderating certain posts to better learn what to say and what not to say. Even still I will just lurk and observe you guys try to navigate around this topic. It seems like the only safe thing to talk about are the golf balls! Good luck!

Edited August 4, 2015 by barbaralewis

[freeradical]

Now, after getting some clarification I feel totally confident to post....

   Caitlyn is one of the executive producers for this docu series and my optimistic viewpoint of the show is that she has very likely seen the footage and approved it.  I would like to consider the possibility that she, with the contributions of such well spoken and well educated  women like Jennifer Boylan and Jen Richards know full well they are showing us that Caitlyn, at this early stage of transition, doesn't yet know the spectrum of the issues she needs to learn about if she is to speak for the transgender community. Jennifer Boylan used the word oblivious and Caitlyn said "I have a lot to learn". The benefit of watching the footage back including the side conversations of the other women could be enlightenment.

    She earned fame and recognition long before the Kardashians came into her life and coming out in private was not an option but the choice to come out with Diane Sawyer and on the cover of Vanity Fair was brave and did put her inadvertently in a spokesperson position. Talking openly about her experience dealing with this her whole life and posing confidently in the magazine has got us all talking and that has to be helping people already.

    Lastly, what the heck was with driving golf balls into the woods! If they didn't hit houses, people or animals they are still serious litter. My husband and I were shocked!

[millennium]

The flagrant waste of golf balls always struck me as a rich guy thing.    Men do it at a nearby lake.  They stand on the shore and hit them into the water, laughing and clapping each other on the back.  

[Human]

Now, after getting some clarification I feel totally confident to post....

   Caitlyn is one of the executive producers for this docu series and my optimistic viewpoint of the show is that she has very likely seen the footage and approved it.  I would like to consider the possibility that she, with the contributions of such well spoken and well educated  women like Jennifer Boylan and Jen Richards know full well they are showing us that Caitlyn, at this early stage of transition, doesn't yet know the spectrum of the issues she needs to learn about if she is to speak for the transgender community. Jennifer Boylan used the word oblivious and Caitlyn said "I have a lot to learn". The benefit of watching the footage back including the side conversations of the other women could be enlightenment.

    She earned fame and recognition long before the Kardashians came into her life and coming out in private was not an option but the choice to come out with Diane Sawyer and on the cover of Vanity Fair was brave and did put her inadvertently in a spokesperson position. Talking openly about her experience dealing with this her whole life and posing confidently in the magazine has got us all talking and that has to be helping people already.

    Lastly, what the heck was with driving golf balls into the woods! If they didn't hit houses, people or animals they are still serious litter. My husband and I were shocked!

I think this is a really good point.  I am never sure how much control an executive producer really has, but this episode did indicate that there is likely a great deal of self-awareness in the editing process.  I'm assuming/hoping it's not an accident that the problems of her voice featured so heavily in an episode that highlighted why in this moment hers might be the wrong voice for this community.  

[Kromm]

Now, after getting some clarification I feel totally confident to post....

   Caitlyn is one of the executive producers for this docu series and my optimistic viewpoint of the show is that she has very likely seen the footage and approved it.  I would like to consider the possibility that she, with the contributions of such well spoken and well educated  women like Jennifer Boylan and Jen Richards know full well they are showing us that Caitlyn, at this early stage of transition, doesn't yet know the spectrum of the issues she needs to learn about if she is to speak for the transgender community. Jennifer Boylan used the word oblivious and Caitlyn said "I have a lot to learn". The benefit of watching the footage back including the side conversations of the other women could be enlightenment.

    She earned fame and recognition long before the Kardashians came into her life and coming out in private was not an option but the choice to come out with Diane Sawyer and on the cover of Vanity Fair was brave and did put her inadvertently in a spokesperson position. Talking openly about her experience dealing with this her whole life and posing confidently in the magazine has got us all talking and that has to be helping people already.

1.) This is not a docu-series. If they are claiming it is, they're full of shit. It's a reality show. Even having some actual content in it from real personalities not normally in the reality biz doesn't change that. It's dangerous to even toy with the idea of letting anyone think this is a documentary. There's no narrative integrity here, and that's key. That doesn't mean it inherently can't teach anything, but it's a bit of a poisoned chalice. It can create talking points for people. But beyond that, some skepticism is not only inevitable, but healthy, IMO.

2.) Caitlyn being a producer doesn't necessarily mean squat. That can mean a lot of things--ranging from total control to absolutely none. We really don't know where she lies in that spectrum with this, and it's not safe to assume either, frankly.

3.) Caitlyn was famous before the Kardashians, it's true. And even moreso because of it. But none of that made her spokesperson role "inadvertent". I don't consider this a value judgment here or saying that Caitlyn had to take one path or the other--I just think if we're being honest, it behooves us to recognize that there are plenty of ways a famous person can make a major change (even one THIS major) and yet minimize the chances of that happening. IF that's what they wanted. Would there still have been people who saw her as an example, a bannerhead, a hero, a touchstone, etc.? Of course. But you don't inadvertently fall into a new reality TV show, or a purchased and negotiated and majorly covered award/P.R. opportunity like the Espys, or stumble out of your door and accidentally run into Diane Sawyer or onto the cover of Vanity Fair. Maybe this is picking on the use of one word, "inadvertent", but I think there's a difference between saying that Caitlyn had the RIGHT to transition the way she did (because.. of course she did!) and using a term that suggests there was no planning involved (the literal meaning of the word "inadvertent"). This was planned, and frankly it was planned to maximize her public profile, not just adjust to the notice she'd inevitably have gotten anyway as an ex-Olympian. Recognizing the sense of purpose in this isn't the same thing as saying it's bad or wrong. That's a totally different thing.

Edited August 4, 2015 by Kromm

[xls]

I don't think either term is offensive; I just don't care to have myself "rebranded" by other people. I think I can define myself for myself, I don't need someone else to create a term - "ciswoman" for me. If transgender women choose to call themselves transwomen, (which is their right, and doesn't bother me) do they get to choose what to call me, too? 

ITA-I don't want to be call the C word I hate it.

Edited August 4, 2015 by xls

[Miss February]

As a layperson with no exposure to this subject until Caitlyn's fame, I think it's intelligent for the producers to bring the other women on the show to educate viewers because, so far, Caitlyn has disclosed that she desired to dress in women's clothing and felt relaxed and relieved when she was able to do so. She comes alive and seems happy when telling stories of particular times she dressed like a woman and walked around, or when she called room service and hoped they would think she was a female.  But the substance of what it all means is so far not really being explained.  Perhaps Caitlyn, like me, needs a college-level education regarding the life realities of transgender people, and to develop cultural and political sensibilities toward these realities, including language use when discussing the subject.  (I feel a little nervous typing in this forum as I'm concerned about saying something offensive because I don't know much about this subject.)  Could or should Caitlyn have educated herself more before transitioning?  She seems kind of lost and as if she's a misfit in the group of women (though a happy-go-lucky misfit), and a few times I wondered if she was becoming afraid that she was in over her head with what is required to intellectually understand her new lifestyle.

 

The next episodes should be interesting.

[millennium]

I don't think either term is offensive; I just don't care to have myself "rebranded" by other people. I think I can define myself for myself, I don't need someone else to create a term - "ciswoman" for me. If transgender women choose to call themselves transwomen, (which is their right, and doesn't bother me) do they get to choose what to call me, too? 

 

I never liked the word "transwomen" and especially dislike "trans."   You spend your life feeling like a woman on the inside; you yearn to be a woman on the outside too.  A woman.   Not a "transwoman."  Nobody I ever heard of grew up longing to be a transwoman.  "Trans" feels like a disclaimer or something.

 

The word bothers me because you have a hostile world screaming at you "you're not a real woman!" and driving the point home by labeling you with slang like "trans" and "tranny" (and IMHO the two sound too close for comfort) ... why on earth would you start referring to yourself that way, too, rather than insisting "I am a woman despite what you think?"

 

Maybe it's a pipe dream to think society will one day come around to regarding transgender people as members of their desired gender.    Maybe not.   But for the time being, "trans" is now so firmly rooted in the culture (more so, thanks to this show) that no matter how you may perceive yourself or how you want the world to see you, society is going to slap a scarlet T on you whether you like it or not.  

Edited August 4, 2015 by millennium

[Kromm]

But for the time being, "trans" is now so firmly rooted in the culture (more so, thanks to this show) that no matter how you may perceive yourself or how you want the world to see you, society is going to slap a scarlet T on you whether you like it or not.  

You could do custom T-shirts instead!  

 

[Muffyn]

I officially love Chandi and JBo.  It always seems like, before Chandi talks to Cait, she is silently saying "For fuck's sake".  

[Cosmic Muffin]

See, I'd love to see Chandi lead a road trip, with this group but without Caitlyn. I think it would be funny and educational.

[CousinAmy]

I officially love Chandi and JBo.  It always seems like, before Chandi talks to Cait, she is silently saying "For fuck's sake".  

I'm not sure who the other Jen was, but she was giving me Jennifer Garner vibes - with the sweetness that Jen's (public persona) projects. She was a delight to watch and listen to. 

[Swedee]

I don't think either term is offensive; I just don't care to have myself "rebranded" by other people. I think I can define myself for myself, I don't need someone else to create a term - "ciswoman" for me. If transgender women choose to call themselves transwomen, (which is their right, and doesn't bother me) do they get to choose what to call me, too?

I completely agree CousinAmy. You make a great point that someone telling you what term they are going to use to describe YOU what is objectionable about the term. If someone says that they prefer to be referred to as a transgender woman, I can completely respect that. However when was there an agreement that cisgender is an acceptable term and I don't have the right to object?

Edited August 5, 2015 by Swedee

[Kromm]

I actually think that the phrases "cis" and "cisgender" have taken on separate lives from each other, to some degree. I mean to use the sexual term equivalence, I suppose one could argue "cis" is like calling someone "hetero" instead of pointing out in an a particular context that they're "heterosexuals". You've removed the context of it being a description of a status and made it into a description of a person (and that's where we always run into trouble, isn't it?)  And while "hetero" doesn't seem WILDLY offensive, maybe that's just because noone every thought to believe it was so.

 

Although even typing that has made me think a bit. We generally as a culture have come to agree that simply calling someone the first four letters of "homosexual" is pretty offensive. And yet we've often been using "trans" interchangeably here with "transgender".  Do we think that's maybe only because that community hasn't (yet seemed to) object to it the way that gay people objected to the first four letters of homosexual as it's own "word"?  

I'm not sure who the other Jen was, but she was giving me Jennifer Garner vibes - with the sweetness that Jen's (public persona) projects. She was a delight to watch and listen to. 

Hah. Haven't seen JenGar in anything but a Capitol One commercial in so long I'm having trouble making that comparison in my mind!

The flagrant waste of golf balls always struck me as a rich guy thing.    Men do it at a nearby lake.  They stand on the shore and hit them into the water, laughing and clapping each other on the back.  

 

If they live in a rich area, then someone at a coop board or neighborhood association probably hires some immigrant worker to fish them all OUT of that lake too...

[millennium]

Although even typing that has made me think a bit. We generally as a culture have come to agree that simply calling someone the first four letters of "homosexual" is pretty offensive. And yet we've often been using "trans" interchangeably here with "transgender".  Do we think that's maybe only because that community hasn't (yet seemed to) object to it the way that gay people objected to the first four letters of homosexual as it's own "word"?  

 

In case you missed it, I objected to it in my earlier post.

 

Edited August 5, 2015 by millennium

[Kromm]

In case you missed it, I objected to it in my earlier post.

Okay, but I was talking about the transgender community. Which if you are a member of, then you haven't explicitly revealed that. Which you don't have to have if you are, or have to be to have an opinion on this, but to use the comparison, it really IS up to the gay community what terms they find offensive (thus the shortened form of "homosexual" being so).  If the shortened form of transgender becomes the same, presumably it will take a similar path via the transgender community to being considered so (that HAS already happened, after all, with the OTHER shortened version of transgender that sounds like a nickname for a Transmission). 

Similarly so, "hetero" and "cis", in theory at least (let's be clear--I mean the SHORTENED versions specifically--it's silly to debate the use of the long forms, because indeed as 17wheatthins said, "cisgender" is really the same as "heterosexual" in that longer form--a non-derogatory description of a status), but that seems a bit more of an endeavor not only to get a cultural consensus on, but discuss.  And you know... the whole "privilege" thing gets in the way a bit.

 

Or maybe it's less about privilege and more about hate crimes. Nobody has ever shouted "hetero" at the top of their lungs while beating someone to death for it. I suppose the same is true of "cis"--nobody's even been victimized all that seriously using it--although again I have seen that shortened version used (elsewhere) as an insult.

Edited August 5, 2015 by Kromm

[jnymph]

I really liked this episode as much as the first one.  I'm learning a lot and it's very thought provoking for me.

 

And I love Candace Cane.  I remember her from the short lived series "Dirty, Sexy Money" 

[trimthatfat]

 

I don't think Caitlyn has a lot of insight into other people's feelings.

Pretty much. She seems completely incapable of understanding the feelings of others. It's quite startling to me to see how out of touch Caitlyn is.

[lizzy07]

 

I don't think Caitlyn has a lot of insight into other people's feelings.

Pretty much. She seems completely incapable of understanding the feelings of others. It's quite startling to me to see how out of touch Caitlyn is.

It doesn't surprise me much, considering how she would speak about Lamar Odom and his addiction issues. She has no insight and thinks you can just stop taking (insert drug of choice here) and was quite cold about it when discussing it with Khloe. She's got very black/white views and just dismisses things like that with, "Take personal responsibility ..." It will be very interesting to see how she reacts when meeting young transgenders who have been kicked out of their houses, disowned by their families, have no money and nobody will hire them.

[iwasish]

Pretty much. She seems completely incapable of understanding the feelings of others. It's quite startling to me to see how out of touch Caitlyn is.

She's also very sensitive to criticism. I can easily see her and Chandi  getting into it over Caitlyn's seemingly superficial attitude towards the difficulty transgenders have in terms of getting/staying employed and the use of governmental/public assistance. Even Jennifer Boylan is concerned that she is too far removed from the real world to ever grasp the struggles. Those ladies must have looked at the home she lives in and the closetful of expensive clothing, the glam squad, the RV rental, the fancy overnight accommodations, listened to her obsess over whether she sounds too much like a man and wondered just how long she'll be hanging around with them before retreating back to the sheltered life she's led to this point.

[freeradical]

  In an earlier post I used the word inadvertent regarding her being a spokesperson, because it conveyed what I meant. I meant that she never intended to become the spokesperson. She has said this herself. She only seemed to know that she would be answering a lot of questions because of her huge visibility.  She said her coming out so publicly might help people. Caitlin has been an inspiration to me since at least Jr. High when I joined track. Despite my clear lack of ability in track sports, I believed in myself anyway.  I think this is why I really want to believe she can conquer this challenge too.  Caitlyn was named the greatest athlete in the world in an individual sport, not a team sport.  I'm pretty sure she didn't achieve that by questioning herself much, if at all.  She has also been a motivational speaker and they do just tell people what to do. With such a strong belief in herself I suspect she's never been a good listener, and at the age of 65 I doubt that will change. People are who they are.  I agree that, from what we saw in this episode, it looks like her role could or should be just as a well known celebrity who has come out as transsexual. I also had a visceral reaction to her statement about public assistance. We have Janet Mock, Laverne Cox, Jennifer Boylan and others who have varied experiences, are in touch, are well spoken and doing a great job of speaking.

Edited August 5, 2015 by barbaralewis