Figure Skating

[Enero]

31 minutes ago, displayname said:

What rule? The all 6 types of jumps one? It benefits a lot of the top skaters.

Yeah. I think the proposed rule would provide a bonus for performing 6 types of jump either triples or quads cleanly. 

I think all the top guys are capable of the former. No one will meet the latter, because none of the current men have all 6 quads. 

[MaKaM]

On 5/16/2018 at 11:33 AM, Jeddah said:

I want to see the best compete. If that’s a young person, so be it. 

On the one hand, yes. Let the best compete. And do away with country quotas at Worlds and go by rankings. Or some combo of quota and ranking that assures the top 10 ranked get to compete even if they are all from one country. 

On the other hand, I want them to be able to walk at 30, so anything that helps pace them to use proper technique or hold off until their bones and ligaments have set is a good thing. Devaluing jumps is the quickest way to go about it. Crippling children for our sport entertainment is hardly the mark of an advanced society. 

Edited May 20, 2018 by MaKaM

[Jeddah]

3 hours ago, MaKaM said:

On the one hand, yes. Let the best compete. And do away with country quotas at Worlds and go by rankings. Or some combo of quota and ranking that assures the top 10 ranked get to compete even if they are all from one country. 

On the other hand, I want them to be able to walk at 30, so anything that helps pace them to use proper technique or hold off until their bones and ligaments have set is a good thing. Devaluing jumps is the quickest way to go about it. Crippling children for our sport entertainment is hardly the mark of an advanced society. 

I’m clearly not saying “crippling children for our sport entertainment” is okay. Nobody is saying that.

[MaKaM]

42 minutes ago, Jeddah said:

I’m clearly not saying “crippling children for our sport entertainment” is okay. Nobody is saying that.

No, no one is saying it (well, Eteri might be) but that is the general effect of prioritizing big jumps and pushing the kids so fast. Gotta learn those quads before the puberty fairy gets you. Back in the olden days, you spent your hours on school figures and not hitting the ice learning jumps or screwing up your hips pretwisting to get that last 1/4 turn.

[legaleagle53]

On 5/15/2018 at 7:22 PM, PoshSprinkles said:

The age limit is fine as is, IMO. I figure most countries want it raised to prevent a younger athlete that hasn't gone through puberty from trouncing everyone via a quadpocalypse. Although, truth be told, age limits don't do anything but cause immense frustration and consternation for athletes who want to compete. Imagine being the unlucky girl who turns 16 during the 2022 games and has to wait until they're 20 to compete for the first time. 

Whoever said life was fair?  If you allow someone who just happens to turn 16 during the 2022 games to compete then instead of in 2026 when she'd actually be eligible under the rules, where do you draw the line?  Sometimes, that's just how life is.

[Jeddah]

4 hours ago, MaKaM said:

No, no one is saying it (well, Eteri might be) but that is the general effect of prioritizing big jumps and pushing the kids so fast. Gotta learn those quads before the puberty fairy gets you. Back in the olden days, you spent your hours on school figures and not hitting the ice learning jumps or screwing up your hips pretwisting to get that last 1/4 turn.

But how does the age limit prevent that? Say the age limit had been in place last season, and Zagitova wasn’t a senior. She still would have been doing the exact same jumps. She had already been doing the same Don Quixote program, back loaded and all, on the Junior Circuit as a 14 year old. If the age limit had been different she wouldn’t have been training less. She just would have missed the opportunity to win a well-deserved gold medal.

I agree that the health of the skaters should be the priority. I just don’t see how the age limit will change anything.

ETA: I would like to see how it plays out with the 0-5 range replacing 0-3 in GEOs. I think if the judges are honest and strict, this will go a long way in rewarding well-rounded, artistic skaters with good technique.

Edited May 20, 2018 by Jeddah

[ombelico]

If the age limit is really about protecting young skaters, then the ISU should also prohibit quad jumps in junior competitions. It's probably not possible to fully police what skaters/coaches do in practice, but if it's known that they can't perform a quad in competition until they are a senior, then hopefully skaters won't feel pressured to practice them so much until closer to the time that they can actually use them in competition. In the same vein, maybe juniors should be limited to 4 triples in a long program.

[MostlyC]

I think that moving the age limit to 17 or whatever is a good idea- it will push the skaters/choreographers/trainers to be more creative.

Oh, and get rid of the backloading bonus points.

[HartofDixie]

DWTS Finale

Tonya

 

 

Adam

 

[SeanC]

On 2018-05-21 at 10:34 AM, MostlyC said:

Oh, and get rid of the backloading bonus points.

Disagree there.  Capping the number of jumps on which they can be used makes sense, but removing the bonus entirely just takes you back to the original problem of encouraging frontloading.

[Darknight]

On 5/17/2018 at 4:07 PM, displayname said:

Thing is, if they at least rewarded GOOD jumping, we would still see a better sport. Not everyone can jump well, especially at that age, but if you work hard and your coaching team teaches you well, and safely, why not? I'm fine with the sport celebrating athletes, artists, and athletes AND artists, but in the ladies field we are essentially rewarding nothing. All of Trusova's and Scherbackova's quads are tiny, cheated, done with terrible technique, excessively pre-rotated AND under-rotated, and yet they are ratified. And because these mean TES AND PCS points, they don't work on the artistic side, either. 

That's what I read too. Trusova's quads have bad technique and she doesn't perform them well. She's going to get hurt. Can you explain TES and PCS points

I believe professional sports are for adults not kids. So raising the age limit is to protect kids. I'm a dance mom..you will not believe how many young dancers do tricks and dance moves without good technique or push too hard

[displayname]

18 hours ago, Darknight said:

Can you explain TES and PCS points

What needs explanation?

 

I meant that Trusova's quads should be called UR, but they are ratified as clean, and are given far too much GOE. That adds to her TES.

 

Unfortunately, PCS is related too much to TES, so her ratified quads also boost her PCS. She should have had PCS in the mid or low fifties for her Junior Worlds showing. She scored in the low 60s.

[Crs97]

Darknight, I hope this is what you wanted to know:

 

Quote

Briefly: Skaters receive two sets of marks for each program: the technical element score (TES) is based on the difficulty and execution of the technical elements, such as the jumps and spins, and the program component score (PCS) is based on artistry, interpretation and presentation. The TES and PCS are combined for a skater’s total score.

The Total Element Score (TES) is a sum of all the element scores.  A TES is determined by two sets of people for each program: the nine-person judging panel and a three-person technical panel.

The technical panel identifies each element (such as discerning a flip from a Lutz, or a quadruple jump from a triple jump). They are also charged with verifying if jumps are fully rotated or landed short.

For elements such as spins and footwork, the technical panel assigns levels numbered one through four, where four is the highest. A skater can enter the spin in a difficult way, or change edge or position during the spin in order to make it more difficult.

The members of the nine-person judging panel evaluate each element based on how well it was performed, assigning a grade of execution (GOE) between -3 and +3 to the element’s predetermined base value. The highest and lowest scores get dropped while the remaining seven GOE scores are averaged. A +3 GOE does not necessarily add three points onto the base value of an element. For example, in a triple Axel and all quad jumps earn three points when the judges assign it a +3 GOE. However, for the rest of the triple jumps, a +3 corresponds to 2.1 points added to the base value of the jump.

Then, the judging panel adds the base values with the GOEs to get the TES.

The Program Components Score (PCS) is based on the judges’ determination of the overall program, and not the individual elements. The judges mark five program components (skating skills, transitions, performance, composition and interpretation) on a scale from 0.25 to 10 (1 = very poor, 5 = average, 10 = outstanding).

[displayname]

Boyang to Orser is PERMANENT, it seems.

 

Extremely excited for this.

[Enero]

I’m so excited for Boyang. Originally I was shocked that the CSF is allowing this move, but so far it still looks as if Boyang won’t be actually moving to Toronto. Perhaps he’ll do what Hanyu did during his first year or two with Brian, only training at TCC for a few weeks out of the season?

Anyway, I think TCC will be able to do wonders for Boyang. However, I’m a little nervous about TCC having so many top skaters in the house at once. The Japanese, Russian and Chinese media can be pretty obsessive when covering their top skaters, which will heighten the scrunity of team TCC and put more pressure on Hanyu, Boyang and Evgenia . I hope TCC aren’t taking on too much and that they and these skaters can remain focused while getting the attention they need from Brian and team. 

Edited May 29, 2018 by Enero

[displayname]

Orser has/is/will be coached/coaching 8 national champions, in Kim, Fernandez, Hanyu, Tursynbayeva, Daleman, Cha, Medevedeva, and Jin.

Edited May 29, 2018 by displayname

[surreysmum]

10 hours ago, displayname said:

Orser has/is/will be coached/coaching 8 national champions, in Kim, Fernandez, Hanyu, Tursynbayeva, Daleman, Cha, Medevedeva, and Jin.

Did Nam Nguyen not also win his national title while he was with Orser? Can't remember. 

[HartofDixie]

Jason Brown is also going to Brian Orser!

[Enero]

If true this means nearly half of the male skaters in the top ten will be training under Orser. ? It will be an interesting post Olympics season. 

[AuntieDiane6]

Quote

Jason Brown is also going to Brian Orser!

Any confirmation? I haven't seen that reported anywhere--but I hope it's true!

[displayname]

5 hours ago, Enero said:

If true this means nearly half of the male skaters in the top ten will be training under Orser.

Only two of them though. Brown's performances are too unpredictable, and Javi is semi-retiring.

It might be a good prediction, however. Cha is on his way there, and I'm going to say Gogolev has potential in the junior track.

19 minutes ago, AuntieDiane6 said:

Any confirmation? I haven't seen that reported anywhere--but I hope it's true!

Yes. Check Hersh's twitter.

[honeywest]

Ice Network confirms that Jason Brown is switching to Orser this summer. He’s been with Kori Ade for nearly 20 years.

[displayname]

Not sure of what to think about Brown going to Orser. He's 24 almost, without a stable quad, a messy 3A and 3-3. Might be personal goals, but I wish Higuchi had gone instead, she's the more exciting skater in this situation apart from Jin (same thoughts on Medvedeva -- would swap either her or Brown out for Higuchi, who was also rumoured at one point).

[SeanC]

I wouldn’t be entirely surprised if Higuchi switched after next season, once she’s finished school in Japan.  She could pal around with Evgenia all the time then.

[Darknight]

On 5/25/2018 at 9:33 PM, Crs97 said:

Darknight, I hope this is what you wanted to know:

 

Thank you. 

[displayname]

11 hours ago, SeanC said:

I wouldn’t be entirely surprised if Higuchi switched after next season, once she’s finished school in Japan.  She could pal around with Evgenia all the time then.

I want to say that won't happen, but I didn't think Orser would be taking in three, either.

I'm predicting Tursynbayeva leaves.

Jin's arrangements are unknown still, so maybe his team has more plans than him just switching to TCC.

[SeanC]

On 5/31/2018 at 12:35 AM, displayname said:

I'm predicting Tursynbayeva leaves.

You're correct, according to TSL's newest video.  She was apparently asked to leave.  They also say that she's contemplating switching to pairs.

Also per TSL, Meagan Duhamel is joining Julianne Seguin and Charlie Bilodeau's coaching team.

[displayname]

4 hours ago, SeanC said:

She was apparently asked to leave.

That's harsh. I didn't know they could do that.

[SeanC]

50 minutes ago, displayname said:

That's harsh. I didn't know they could do that.

I'm sure she could remain a member of the actual club, but without any of the coaches who constitute "the TCC" in people's minds, what would be the point?

[displayname]

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

I'm sure she could remain a member of the actual club, but without any of the coaches who constitute "the TCC" in people's minds, what would be the point?

I took it as their having said to her "We won't be coaching you any longer". That's what sounded harsh.

[SeanC]

12 minutes ago, displayname said:

I took it as their having said to her "We won't be coaching you any longer". That's what sounded harsh.

Yeah, that's what I meant.  When you said that you didn't know they could do that, I figured that was referring to the TCC itself; a coach can terminate a commercial relationship with a skater whenever they want to.

[MaKaM]

21 hours ago, SeanC said:

Yeah, that's what I meant.  When you said that you didn't know they could do that, I figured that was referring to the TCC itself; a coach can terminate a commercial relationship with a skater whenever they want to.

Frank did it through the media to Gracie, right?

[displayname]

The ISU livestreams of their congress show exactly why the sport is now a dumpster fire.

[Jeddah]

Proposal to change figure skating age minimum denied

I’m surprised it didn’t even make it to the agenda.

[displayname]

On 6/5/2018 at 8:14 AM, Jeddah said:

I’m surprised it didn’t even make it to the agenda.

I'm not. The proposal was spouting nonsense about "idols" and women being "afraid of youngsters", and factually incorrect claims about age limits.

It wouldn't have passed even if a bunch of back-alley crooks were contemplating it in their local crackhouse.

Edited June 9, 2018 by displayname

[Jeddah]

8 minutes ago, displayname said:

I'm not. The proposal was spouting nonsense about "idols" and women being "afraid of youngsters", and factually incorrect claims about age limits.

It wouldn't have even passed if a bunch of back-alley crooks were contemplating it in their local crackhouse.

I agree with you about the proposal. I was against the change. I just thought it was going to be a bigger fight.

[SeanC]

The backloading bonus cap ("Zagitova rule") passed -- or, more precisely, the Japanese proposal capping it at 1 in the short and 3 in the long (the Canadians proposed 2 in the short and 4 in the long).

[Mellowyellow]

Could someone tell me if Alina's triple lutz - triple loop is worth a lot?

I've been rewatching her performances and I genuinely enjoy her skating so if she keeps being able to jump well does this mean in terms of technical elements she'd be unstoppable? 

Do the others need to learn harder combos or jumps to catch up?

[redpencil]

On 6/5/2018 at 2:10 PM, SeanC said:

The backloading bonus cap ("Zagitova rule") passed -- or, more precisely, the Japanese proposal capping it at 1 in the short and 3 in the long (the Canadians proposed 2 in the short and 4 in the long).

I think I would have gone with the Canadian proposal (1 and 3 will likely just result in more jumps in the first half on fresh legs), but that's just quibbling, really, and there's already an odd number of jumping passes. Glad it passed.

[Enero]

Yeah I think the backloading rule change will ultimately result in more balanced programs, jump wise. 

It’ll be interesting to see how everyone handles the no repeats on quads and triples. Well they can repeat, but only two out of all the quads and triples can repeat. 

Edited June 7, 2018 by Enero

[displayname]

Kostner's doing another season, it seems.

[surreysmum]

Two pieces of news from International Figure Skating's FB page:

https://www.facebook.com/IFSmagazine/

1.Tursynbayeva to Eteri.

"Yes, I left Orser, but this has nothing to do with anyone. With Brian, we broke up on good terms, he supported my choice and wished me luck, saying that I'm in good hands. And I am grateful to him for the experience that he gave me, " she said.

2. No ISU skating events to be hosted by China this season - the Chinese federation has returned all its slots.  South Korea has reportedly been asked to provide a substitute for Cup of China.

[Jeddah]

That’s weird news about Cup of China. I thought China was really investing in skating since they’re hosting the next Winter Olympics.

As for Orser telling Tursynbayeva she’ll be in good hands...He knows she’s going to Eteri, right? That’s the complete opposite of being in good hands!

[Enero]

13 hours ago, Jeddah said:

That’s weird news about Cup of China. I thought China was really investing in skating since they’re hosting the next Winter Olympics.

As for Orser telling Tursynbayeva she’ll be in good hands...He knows she’s going to Eteri, right? That’s the complete opposite of being in good hands!

The way this was worded, in present tense “I’m in good hands”, Brian could’ve meant that she’s in good hands with her handlers ie her mom, who will make sure that whatever training etc., she endures under Eteri will be appropriate. Or he could mean Eteri. Though we’ve all made inferences about Eteri’s training methods based on a few interviews, we really don’t know what goes into her training methods, but she does appear to know what she’s doing considering the success of her pupils. So I’m sure she has Brian’s respect in that regard.

Regarding China backing out of all of the skating events they were due to host, my understanding is that they are currently at odds with the ISU over a couple of incidents that happened at the Olympics, and as a result they are pulling out of their host duties in protest. Considering how they’ve moved away from the status quo to get some of their skaters the best training available, I’d say they’re still invested in figure skating, but are also not willing to stay mum about issues they have with the ISU. 

[legaleagle53]

34 minutes ago, Enero said:

Regarding China backing out of all of the skating events they were due to host, my understanding is that they are currently at odds with the ISU over a couple of incidents that happened at the Olympics, and as a result they are pulling out of their host duties in protest. Considering how they’ve moved away from the status quo to get some of their skaters the best training available, I’d say they’re still invested in figure skating, but are also not willing to stay mum about issues they have with the ISU. 

That makes me wonder whether Beijing will still want to host the Games in 2022 if they haven't worked out their issues with the ISU.

[Enero]

39 minutes ago, legaleagle53 said:

That makes me wonder whether Beijing will still want to host the Games in 2022 if they haven't worked out their issues with the ISU.

Well it’s the ISU (International Skating Union) not the IOC (International Olympic Committee), whom they are supposedly at odds. Therefore, I think they are still onboard with hosting 2022. Plus we’re only about 3.5 years out from the next Winter Games. It would be a little late to pull out now unless some catastrophe happened that prevented them from hosting. 

This protest may very well be temporary until China gets some form of concession from the ISU, whatever that may be. I’d be very surprised to see this go on for the next several seasons leading into the 2022, but we’ll see. 

[Mittengirl]

What are their issues with the ISU?

[displayname]

I'm still not over Kostner doing another season TBH.

2022 calling.

[boaty mcboatface]

On 6/14/2018 at 12:09 AM, Mittengirl said:

What are their issues with the ISU?

I think it's mostly to do with what they felt were unfair decisions and DQs in the short track. But 2 Chinese Olympics judges have also been under investigation for national bias and have in fact been given suspensions today, one for ludicrous overscoring of Boyang Jin and the other for blatant underscoring of Savchenko/Massot in order to boost Sui/Han. However, they weren't the only ones with highly questionable marks, just the only ones singled out. 

[HartofDixie]

3 hours ago, boaty mcboatface said:

I think it's mostly to do with what they felt were unfair decisions and DQs in the short track. But 2 Chinese Olympics judges have also been under investigation for national bias and have in fact been given suspensions today, one for ludicrous overscoring of Boyang Jin and the other for blatant underscoring of Savchenko/Massot in order to boost Sui/Han. However, they weren't the only ones with highly questionable marks, just the only ones singled out. 

I wonder if this is why China doesn't want to host events next season.  What about the shady ice dance judging at Golden Spin?