Danny Franks April 1, 2015 Share April 1, 2015 God, I hope that's an April Fool's Joke, because Guggenheim sincerely asking what Ray has done that was problematic is scary. If it's a joke, at least he's just a tool. I can understand that. 3 Link to comment
NumberCruncher April 1, 2015 Share April 1, 2015 Uh...haven't people told MG time and time again what they've found problematic/threatening about Ray only to have those reasons dismissed? Hell, even the media picked up on it which is why media reporters were bringing up the whole stalking issue with Brandon Routh in interviews. SMH. 8 Link to comment
closer2fine April 1, 2015 Share April 1, 2015 God, I hope that's an April Fool's Joke, because Guggenheim sincerely asking what Ray has done that was problematic is scary. If it's a joke, at least he's just a tool. I can understand that. Considering that just last week he said that the only reason people didn't like Ray was because of Olicity.....it's probably not a joke. But who knows. Link to comment
Chaser April 1, 2015 Share April 1, 2015 (edited) Damage Control is my guess. The dislike turned to hate after 3x17. They say apathy is worse than hate, but I would argue that is not the case when they are trying to launch a spin-off. People not caring about Ray is okay going into an ensemble show with characters they do like, but Ray is the only character people are being exposed to right now and the amount of venom directed at him is not a good thing for the network. Edited April 1, 2015 by 10Eleven12 3 Link to comment
lemotomato April 1, 2015 Share April 1, 2015 I'm absolutely sure people have sent him lists of Ray's problematic behavior; I know I did (And I had so many examples I didn't even bother mentioning the stalking because I know he doesn't consider the stalking as such). So I find his answer condescending/mocking, which is perfectly in-character for MG 8 Link to comment
Morrigan2575 April 1, 2015 Share April 1, 2015 (edited) ARE. YOU. SERIOUS.I wonder if MG ever read Hamlet? Plus out warn copy of Hamlet.... Hamlet doesn't even see his father's ghost until the end of Act 1, he didn't know of his Uncle's betrayal until that point. Before that he was in mourning nd majorly resenting how quickly his mother moved on but had no clue Uncle Claudius killed his father.Hamlet did have the opportunity to kill Claudius in Act 3 (when Uncle Dearest is praying) but fails to do so. Ironically, even Shakespeare knew enough to give a reason, Hamlet doesn't want to kill Claudius while praying because it would srnd Claudius' soul to heaven and Hamlet wanted Claudius to suffer as his father (who died with sins on his soul) was suffering. So, you know...there were actual plot reasons Edited April 1, 2015 by Morrigan2575 8 Link to comment
dtissagirl April 1, 2015 Share April 1, 2015 Damage Control is my guess. The dislike turned to hate after 3x17. They say apathy is worse than hate, but I would argue that is not the case when they are trying to launch a spin-off. People not caring about Ray is okay going into an ensemble show with characters they do like, but Ray is the only character people are being exposed to right now and the amount of venom directed at him is not a good thing for the network. I really think they believed having the guy who used to be Superman, and the suit, would be enough to sell Palmer. Instead, in the first episode he was actively working as a hero, the internets people gave the suit a big list of snarky nicknames, and the biggest online response was people worried that Palmer electrocuted Roy to death. Which is to say, they brought it on themselves. 12 Link to comment
calliope1975 April 1, 2015 Share April 1, 2015 Palmer's getting a fair amount of hate on Facebook right now, and it warms my cold, black heart. I was all set to welcome this new character with open arms, but the writing blew it, and I'm glad they're getting that feedback. 7 Link to comment
quarks April 1, 2015 Share April 1, 2015 Is this Hamlet reference meant to suggest that Arrow is going to end with everyone dead, scattered around the Arrow cave, as Bruce Wayne stalks in? 8 Link to comment
BkWurm1 April 1, 2015 Share April 1, 2015 Um, no Guggenheim. That isn't the reason that those things didn't happen. There were valid narrative and character explanations for why Hamlet didn't kill Claudius in Act 1, and why Jack didn't shoot out the tyres on the bus (also, how hilarious is it that his go to responses are Shakespeare and, of all things, Speed?). Because those writers actually thought about that stuff. Clearly more than you did, otherwise you wouldn't come up with that bullshit as your only reasoning. You don't make a narrative choice just because, 'well, without it there would be no story'. If you do that, then your story sucks anyway. I'm ok with this answer because he's basically quoting John Ford waaaaay back in the day when he was filming Stagecoach and someone asked why the Indians didn't just shoot the horses, to which his famous reply was "Cause then we wouldn't have a movie." He was trying to be clever and failing. At least he was stealing material from a master. Color me stunned. : Guggenheim agrees to hear about problematic Ray Palmer. (Or an elaborate April Fools' Day joke.) I bit. This was my reply. What did Ray do that was problematic and/or threatening? The line he crossed that I can’t overlook is when he dismissed both Felicity and Laurel’s opinion on Oliver based on past or current feelings they had for Oliver. This was a question of murder. It’s not acceptable for him to mansplain away the knowledge two, smart, successful, respected women offer based on his belief they are too stupid to think past their girly feelings. I supported Ray before 3.17. Now I find him misogynistic and untrustworthy. Truthfully, I've said something similar before but he asked so I'm happy to let him know. 8 Link to comment
Password April 1, 2015 Share April 1, 2015 The Ray shade throwing is so thick on Facebook I'm amazed. It's so hilarious. 2 Link to comment
NumberCruncher April 1, 2015 Share April 1, 2015 That's the first Ray FB thread I've bothered to peruse and you're right--the shade is pretty heavy. What's even funnier is that there are just as many male haters as female. Sure there are plenty of complaints about the love triangle, but I see just as many posts about The ATOM being a bad Iron Man ripoff. DC surely should have anticipated that comparison, right? 4 Link to comment
Password April 1, 2015 Share April 1, 2015 I actually see more Atom-as-Stark ripoff comments than Olicity comments. So many die, Ray comments though. *shocked* Link to comment
Guest April 1, 2015 Share April 1, 2015 (edited) I'm not shocked after last episode. So many people were indifferent and Ray's actions in 317 turned those against him. You can't interfere with Olicity, be a lying creepy douche to Felicity, go after Oliver and electrocute Roy without any shame and come away unscathed. Sorry Ray. I feel pretty bad for BR though. I feel like I should state for the record that I don't dislike BR at all. He seems like an okay dude. His character sucks though. Hope they change the way they write him for the spin-off or they're in trouble. Edited April 1, 2015 by Guest Link to comment
statsgirl April 1, 2015 Share April 1, 2015 It will be interesting to see how AK writes him in the Flash episode. Hopefully that will be a better entree to a collaborative show. 1 Link to comment
TanyaKay April 1, 2015 Share April 1, 2015 (edited) I was one of those people who were indifferent to Ray Palmer till last episode. I mean we all knew the writers had a specific purpose for him, he will fill it and that would be the end of it all, plus I really like Brandon Routh as a person. He seems like an extremely affable person. Sadly, the misogynist creep that emerged in the last episode (he refused to believe Felicity, a woman he was sleeping with and he was apparently into her but believed another straight white dude whom he thought was a murderous criminal) made me want to hit him in head and then electrocute him and leave him in that same alley where he left poor Roy. He was a douche to his girlfriend, a sexist pig to Laurel Lance the lawyer, an ass to Oliver who is sorta hero, he was a hypocrite in general as he criticized Oliver for being judge, jury and executioner but went on to do exactly the same and then electrocuted poor Roy who was just standing next to Oliver. He did not even pay the price for any of that and then he also got to kiss the girl! They also made Felicity apologize to him for being loyal to her team and friends. So yeah, I want the writer of that episode and Ray Palmer both in a lot of pain. Edited April 6, 2015 by TanyaKay 12 Link to comment
Lady Calypso April 2, 2015 Share April 2, 2015 (edited) They also made Felicity apologize to him for being loyal to her team and friends. So yeah, I want the writer of that episode and Ray Palmer both in a lot of pain. You know, I decided to see who wrote the episode just to see what else she's written for Arrow. The writer's name is Keto Shimizu and she wrote this episode by herself. Every other episode she's written (which I think is about five or six) has been with another person. She helped write Sara, Guilty, The Climb, The Man Under The Hood, Blast Radius, and Broken Dolls (with Guggentroll). So...make of that what you will. Edited April 2, 2015 by jessied112 Link to comment
Lady Calypso April 2, 2015 Share April 2, 2015 Keto Shimizu is a woman. :) Shhh....you saw nothing! (*furiously edits like a boss as if nothing happened) In all seriousness though.... maybe it's better she sticks to writing with a partner. 1 Link to comment
bethy April 2, 2015 Share April 2, 2015 The writer's name is Keto Shimizu and she wrote this episode by herself. Every other episode she's written (which I think is about five or six) has been with another person. I don't know how writing on a series like this works, but how much responsibility does one writer have for an episode like this? Given the spin-off coming up and the "needs" regarding the Felicity/Oliver dynamic, surely there were others providing input and parameters for what needs to happen? Link to comment
dtissagirl April 2, 2015 Share April 2, 2015 I don't know how writing on a series like this works, but how much responsibility does one writer have for an episode like this? Given the spin-off coming up and the "needs" regarding the Felicity/Oliver dynamic, surely there were others providing input and parameters for what needs to happen? The full writers room "breaks" the episode together. Breaking an episode = setting up an outline of all scenes and acts. Then the writer, or writer duo, go write the episode based on that outline. At each draft, the writers room, the network, DC Comics, the production offices up in Vancouver, all might have notes, so then come revisions, and more drafts, until there's a shooting script. Trivia: each revised draft is printed in different colored paper, because Hollywood is hilarious: http://kb.finaldraft.com/article/1001/884/What-are-the-standard-revision-set-colors? Guggenheim has mentioned on Tumblr that the last script revision is his, but no idea how much actual revision he does. 4 Link to comment
Guest April 2, 2015 Share April 2, 2015 Are they both single because I really want them to be. Hahaha. Awesome. Link to comment
Chaser April 2, 2015 Share April 2, 2015 I was following tweets instead of watching the episode and I saw Captain Lance and Mama Smoak trended individually. I was watching to see if SmoakinLance did. It's funny, I'm against the pairing in show but these guys are slowly converting me. Are they both single because I really want them to be. Hahaha. Awesome. They aren't married so…Maybe there's a chance? lol 1 Link to comment
Guest April 2, 2015 Share April 2, 2015 I was following tweets instead of watching the episode and I saw Captain Lance and Mama Smoak trended individually. I was watching to see if SmoakinLance did. It's funny, I'm against the pairing in show but these guys are slowly converting me. They aren't married so…Maybe there's a chance? lol Haha. Same. I actually don't want SmoakinLance to happen because I'd prefer it if Felicity's family wasn't involved with Laurel's family tbh. But I can't deny they'd be cute. It's just the whole Lance factor. The thought of Felicity and Laurel ending up step-siblings if their parents ever got married. NOooooooo. Just no. Link to comment
BkWurm1 April 2, 2015 Share April 2, 2015 (edited) This is a copout. Why did I expect anything better from MG? From MG Tumblr satanichorse asked: You're probably getting a ton of asks talking about what problematic things Ray has done, many of which is probably completely legitimate, but I personally think that it should also be mentioned that when painting Ray as an evil stalker misogynist it is completely hypocritical to paint Oliver as the perfect unproblematic man for Felicity. Oliver has done much much worse. Oliver shouldn't be excluded from feminist criticism only because he's part of a shipper's preferred couple. MG: Surely, the topic of gender politics is the “third rail” of the Internet. This is the post he shares? I almost get including it among a bunch of Ray ones but this is ALL he posted about the subject so far. Not cool. Oliver isn't the question on the table. If he wants complaints about Oliver, I can deliver, but Oliver has more going for him as a character than just Felicity's good graces. Ray doesn't. Edited April 2, 2015 by BkWurm1 12 Link to comment
looptab April 2, 2015 Share April 2, 2015 Maybe this is silly, but I wonder how come these past few episodes the cast isn't doing their customary Arrow- related tweeting on wednesdays. Except for SA, who always does, and was livetweeting for this past episode, DR, EBR, KC, CH don't even mention it anymore. David Ramsey broke the silence for the Suicide Squad episode, but that's it. Link to comment
NumberCruncher April 2, 2015 Share April 2, 2015 (edited) This is the post he shares? I almost get including it among a bunch of Ray ones but this is ALL he posted about the subject so far. Not cool. Oliver isn't the question on the table. If he wants complaints about Oliver, I can deliver, but Oliver has more going for him as a character than just Felicity's good graces. Ray doesn't. I see this trend a lot all over the internet (this place isn't immune to it either, BTW) where someone insists on deflecting character criticism by randomly bringing up a different character's flaws rather than address the issue at hand and it drives. me. nuts. MG is a bit of a doofus to post that comment about Oliver's character as a response to Ray's actions but I'm scratching my head more at the asker inserting something completely irrelevant into the conversation, especially when no one was denying that Oliver has done plenty of shitty things over the course of 3 seasons. Stop the insanity. Edited April 2, 2015 by NumberCruncher 12 Link to comment
dtissagirl April 2, 2015 Share April 2, 2015 Yeah, this is Derailing 101, basically. Insert a different topic into a conversation, to deflect the attention from the matter at hand. http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Derailment 5 Link to comment
tarotx April 2, 2015 Share April 2, 2015 (edited) MG has to know that unlike with Oliver we didn't sign on for Ray's show. He's already in his own spinoff forced inside Arrow episodes. Ray takes me out of the mood of the show I signed up for. Ray is also the most Mary Sue Character ever. No one likes that especially when it's on a character who does have non-charming flaws (like stalking and being so stuck in his own ass) while none of the flaws are treated as such by the characters-definitely none of the characters in Ray's in show spin off. Edited April 2, 2015 by tarotx 9 Link to comment
lexicon April 2, 2015 Share April 2, 2015 Haha. Same. I actually don't want SmoakinLance to happen because I'd prefer it if Felicity's family wasn't involved with Laurel's family tbh. But I can't deny they'd be cute. It's just the whole Lance factor. The thought of Felicity and Laurel ending up step-siblings if their parents ever got married. NOooooooo. Just no. Yeah I need Felicity to not become the third "Lance" sister that Oliver gets involved with...because gross. 2 Link to comment
lexicon April 2, 2015 Share April 2, 2015 What the actual eff! Katie should go and sit in a corner for 30 minutes for not knowing what the word super means. I mean if she thinks her bumbling with a baton can in any way be misconstrued as 'super hero' shenanigans, then she needs to revaluate just about everything. On a side note, can someone please buy her a dictionary and highlight words & phrases like soul mate, epic, kick ass and of course, 'super' for her to know what they actually mean? Also love triangle because the girl thinks LL is involved in one with OQ and FS. Hhahaha, Does she watch her own show? 3 Link to comment
Delphi April 2, 2015 Share April 2, 2015 Stephen live tweeted last night's episode, he and his daughter seemed to enjoy it. http://delphibyproxy.tumblr.com/post/115304013741 Link to comment
kismet April 2, 2015 Share April 2, 2015 All I can say about the tweeting last night that was coming across my feed were nothing positive for Ray. I mean even Malcolm wasn't getting this much I hope he dies comments in the episodes where he was gravely injured or being tortured. I mean people really wanted him off the show last night. That's some built up animosity. Do people know what did actually trend? I only saw Captain Lance. And then Arrow was trending after the show was over. There were some nice things about Roy though. The SmoaknLance flirting was also amusing and popular. I really loved that they have their own little campaign going on. Those 2 definitely need to be in a scene together next season, I don't even care if people call it fanservice, those 2 character would be hysterical together and the actors do seem to have a natural chemistry. 4 Link to comment
tv echo April 2, 2015 Share April 2, 2015 (edited) meekabee asked:Hi Marc, hope you're feeling better... with GBerlanti's new project springing forth from left to right... will you and Andrew still be involve or will be writing for the Arrow and the Flash next season? *Please don't answer on April Fools please* ;p I’ll still be very much involved with Arrow next year. Same for Andrew and Flash. antonelamastromarino asked:Hi Marc ! Is the fern real o is it a fake plastic fern? Love the show :) xo from argentina ! ps: tell stephen to try our wines ;) It is a plastic fern. capleesi asked:Marc thanks to you,Kriesberg, Berlanti and Johns DCTV on CW is doing so well with an ever growing superhero roster. CW is sister networks with CBS. Any chance a lot of begging and pleading will lead to Supergirl being an occasional crossnetwork crossover guest on Arrow or Flash or yet unnamed superhero teamup show? Also Vixen as an animated show is great, but any chance she will make the leap to TV? Having a WoC superhero would be great. — Supergirl. It would be great to crossover. Totally up to CBS. Make your feelings known. — Vixen. Yes. Total possibility. And I agree with you. http://marcguggenheim.tumblr.com/ Edited April 2, 2015 by tv echo Link to comment
statsgirl April 2, 2015 Share April 2, 2015 (edited) I hate it when people call it 'fanservice' when it's that the fans have a good idea and the show goes with it. The writers aren't the only intelligent people in the universe. Fanservice is when it's a bad idea and they do it just to keep those fans. Edited April 3, 2015 by statsgirl 1 Link to comment
kismet April 2, 2015 Share April 2, 2015 (edited) I hate it when people call it 'fanservice' when it's that the fans have a good idea and the show goes with it. The writers aren't the only intelligent people in the universe. Fanservice is when it's a bad idea and the does it just to keep those fans. Totally agree. Didn't mean for it to be used as a condescending term. My bad, I guess I misused the term. I actually think the fans have made very good ideas about how to improve the show. I mean this forum alone is proof of the intelligence and insight the fans provide regarding the show. A lot of our theories wind up being true and then a lot of our analysis actually provides more depth to the character & plot than a lot of what it being put on the screen. Edited April 2, 2015 by kismet Link to comment
kismet April 2, 2015 Share April 2, 2015 I think its possible to please both the comics group and the non-comics group. Its not easy but its possible. LL arc to BC has been flawed in execution, but they can fix it for s4. I love original Team Arrow and think the foundry is getting too crowded, but there are ways to organically write BC/LL into the show. I personally think if they give her a separate path of vigilante/superhero rather than tagging along with TA that would be an effective solution. There is enough from the BC comic lore & the Arrow comic lore that they can bring onto the show. I never thought that I would like Roy's addition, but he's proven to be a good addition. Restricting Diggle to comms and out of the field, is just a dumb choice, but its not irreversible. Felicity just needs to get back into the foundry and doing her thing. I think there is an organic way to have the comics & non-comic worlds interact. They were able to do some organic canary with TA stuff when Sara was Canary, so I think its possible with LL in s4 once they give her some well needed training over the summer. If the comics people want to see BC/Arsenal/Arrow fighting together that is possible, and can be done without the reduction of Diggle/Felicity. As for comics related to Ray/Atom. His introduction into the Arrow world has been significantly mishandled from the beginning. Making him a lot like Oliver and having him steal everything from Oliver was not a good way to start out. An antagonist to the main hero is not an easy introduction. Add to that some pretty poor writing & characterization choices. The more they show us Ray, the more he appears to be revealing his true nature (arrogant, pighead, self-absorbed slightly misogynistic), which seems to be in direct opposition to how I think most people want their superheros to be. Everyone has flaws, but he's either too perfect or a complete ass. There is no middle ground or layers to him. He's not an anti-hero like MM, where we are meant to love & hate him, we're supposed to love Ray for Ray. And tbh, its Ray that most people have issues with. I also think if they had avoided the romance with Felicity, it would have allowed them to tell his journey from businessman to emotionally hurting man to protector of the city. Instead he's playing a poorly written romantic lead which told me nothing about how or why he wants to save the city. They should have focused on his love for Anna & science. I could relate to someone wanting to use his brain & abilities to protect innocent people, but not when he's blatantly hitting on a new girl, keeping secrets from her and using her to increase his tech inventory. His journey should have been about him, his motivations & his suit. They miscalculated using him as their block to O/F, sometimes you can multitask a character but this choice was not a good one for Ray or Felicity. They should have had the O/F relationship be blocked by the numerous other reasons that it would not have worked in s3. If they wanted to show Felicity growing as an independent woman they should have shown that. If they wanted her dating other men, they could have had her date random people like they did for OQ in s1. Devote Ray's time on the screen to be about Ray, not his personal life. This is not a comics v. non-comics issue, this is just poor writing/character choices. 4 Link to comment
apinknightmare April 3, 2015 Share April 3, 2015 (edited) Colton just posted this on his Instagram. Not sure how recent it is: https://instagram.com/p/0_tGz2DTDU/ Edited April 3, 2015 by apinknightmare 1 Link to comment
Velocity23 April 3, 2015 Share April 3, 2015 Apparently this pic of Colton on set are from today. https://twitter.com/StarlingCityJ/status/583793585247678464 1 Link to comment
kismet April 3, 2015 Share April 3, 2015 Apparently this pic of Colton on set are from today. https://twitter.com/StarlingCityJ/status/583793585247678464 Still hope unless Akio & Roy go and hang out with Tommy & Moira at Shado's party BUT because Roy has been so awesome this year, I hold out hope & faith. 1 Link to comment
tv echo April 3, 2015 Share April 3, 2015 (edited) Stephen Amell @amellywood · Apr 1#SaveRoy https://twitter.com/amellywood Edited April 3, 2015 by tv echo 3 Link to comment
Delphi April 3, 2015 Share April 3, 2015 http://comicbook.com/2015/04/01/deadshot-is-officially-off-the-table-for-arrow/ Didn't see that posted anywhere, but apparently Deadshot is out for good, which I kinda assumed. Also: http://marcguggenheim.tumblr.com/post/115338668589/full-disclosure-there-are-some-shots-in-todays Full disclosure: There are some shots in today’s Arrow preview that won’t appear in the final episodes. No, I won’t tell you what they are. — Marc Guggenheim Link to comment
statsgirl April 3, 2015 Share April 3, 2015 (edited) Off the show, but not dead surely if he's going to appear in the movie. Although even if the movie tanks and they decide not to do another, it will probably be too late to write him into Arrow's universe. Poor Michael Rowe, he did such a good job. there are ways to organically write BC/LL into the show. I personally think if they give her a separate path of vigilante/superhero rather than tagging along with TA that would be an effective solution. I think that's a great idea, to give Laurel her own missions that occasionally team up with Arrow's but not always. That's kind of what would have worked if Sara had lived and stayed with the LoA. That would leave Oliver, Diggle and Roy out in the field and Felicity at the comms (someone has to come up with a salary for these people). If Thea joins, it would help balance the sex ratio but she'd be a junior partner like Roy so it wouldn't disturb the TA vibe. Edited April 3, 2015 by statsgirl 1 Link to comment
Delphi April 3, 2015 Share April 3, 2015 Off the show, but not dead surely if he's going to appear in the movie. Although even if the movie tanks and they decide not to do another, it will probably be too late to write him into Arrow's universe. Poor Michael Rowe, he did such a good job. I'm much more interested in Arrow Deadshot than whatever it is Will Smith is going to do with it. I just don't understand why he'd have to be off the table. Their making a movie version of the Flash but I don't see them cancelling that show or killing Barry. I think DC really doesn't think that their audience couldn't fathom the concept of different universe, which is very dumb and kind of insulting. 6 Link to comment
statsgirl April 3, 2015 Share April 3, 2015 The suits probably don't get it. It's a business for them. And yes, they probably think their audience couldn't live with two different universes. I think the TV fandom is more fanatic, especially for DC, don't know about Marvel so much, but it's the movies that bring in the really big bucks. But I agree, it's going to be hard to think of Will Smith as being Deadshot after seeing Michael Rowe. Link to comment
tv echo April 3, 2015 Share April 3, 2015 Arrow - Stunts: Wildcat Vs. BrickPublished on Apr 3, 2015, by The CW Television Network"Stunt Coordinator James Bamford breaks down the brutal Wildcat vs. Brick street fight. Arrow is all new Wednesday, April 15!"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMIorhn9Q2Q Link to comment
HighHopes April 3, 2015 Share April 3, 2015 Brandon Routh will no longer be at the Calgary Expo (which is the weekend after filming wraps) due to filming in Malaysia. But they have added Robbie Amell instead. I'm still keeping my fingers crossed that EBR will join too (David Ramsey is there as well). Link to comment
tv echo April 4, 2015 Share April 4, 2015 I came across this general fan website that has transcripts of all the Arrow episodes from season 1 to the present: http://transcripts.foreverdreaming.org/viewforum.php?f=172&sid=9ce740eb6900f5cdddbb42e771e4f39f About this website: http://foreverdreaming.org/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=5885 2 Link to comment
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