S05.E10: Mother's Mercy

[TexasChic]

How is the Mad King Jon's father? 

Just speculation on a variation on R + L = J. The theory is that that Mad King raped Lyanna, which caused Rhaegar to whisk her away to save her, thus forsaking his wife. My closest friend thinks I'm crazy for believing this, but there you go.

Edited June 17, 2015 by TexasChic

[Pogojoco]

Just speculation on a variation on R + L = J. 

The timeline doesn't fit and there is no indication that they spent any time alone together. Rhaeger and Lyanna, on the other hand, spent lots of time together to conceive a baby. 

[TexasChic]

You sound just like my friend! She's extremely intelligent, so I'm probably wrong - but it's just speculation.

[Avaleigh]

I like the way Cersei repeats "My atonement?" to the High Sparrow. It's like she wants to say "What the hell do you call this shit I've already been putting up with these past few days/weeks?"

[FemmyV]

Well the kings guard still has to follow the king's and prince's commands, regardless of their oath. See Barriston the Bold being fired. Rhaegar was a good guy so he might just have sent them to protect the woman he loved and his son.

Thinking about Rhaegar's death at the Trident and "Rheagar's rubies." Rubies in ASOIAF as a glamour to disguise. Could he have somehow used a glamour to leave a lookalike at the Trident, while Rhaegar busted ass to get back to the Tower of Joy and marry Lyanna? Ned said he found her in a pool of blood. He didn't say whose.

[Pogojoco]

You sound just like my friend! She's extremely intelligent, so I'm probably wrong - but it's just speculation.

If you want more speculation involving the Mad King- a common one is that he's Tyrion's dad. Aerys had a thing for Joanna Lannister. 

[Miles]

Thinking about Rhaegar's death at the Trident and "Rheagar's rubies." Rubies in ASOIAF as a glamour to disguise. Could he have somehow used a glamour to leave a lookalike at the Trident, while Rhaegar busted ass to get back to the Tower of Joy and marry Lyanna? Ned said he found her in a pool of blood. He didn't say whose.

I think it was "her bed of blood", which most people interpret to be her birthing bed. Child birth didn't always go well in old timy times. Edited June 17, 2015 by Miles

[TexasChic]

If you want more speculation involving the Mad King- a common one is that he's Tyrion's dad. Aerys had a thing for Joanna Lannister. 

Ooooh, interesting!

[Pogojoco]

Thinking about Rhaegar's death at the Trident and "Rheagar's rubies." Rubies in ASOIAF as a glamour to disguise. Could he have somehow used a glamour to leave a lookalike at the Trident, while Rhaegar busted ass to get back to the Tower of Joy and marry Lyanna? Ned said he found her in a pool of blood. He didn't say whose.

A bed of blood- many read that as a reference to child birth. The theory is that Lyanna and Rhaeger ran off together, and she got pregnant. If they got married, it'd be at some point before he left for the Trident. He likely left her because his father had killed her father and brother and declared that he wanted her other brother's head. He left the Kingsguard behind to protect her and their unborn child while he either made things right or maybe killed Robert Baratheon.

 

Rhaeger's armour had rubies inbedded in it (to decorate dragon designs on it,  if I recall) and his soldiers collected them out of the river. Melisandre has a ruby that's magic, but I don't think all rubies have that power. 

Edited June 17, 2015 by Pogojoco

[nksarmi]

Thinking about Rhaegar's death at the Trident and "Rheagar's rubies." Rubies in ASOIAF as a glamour to disguise. Could he have somehow used a glamour to leave a lookalike at the Trident, while Rhaegar busted ass to get back to the Tower of Joy and marry Lyanna? Ned said he found her in a pool of blood. He didn't say whose.

Interesting...

 

So even though they didn't use rubies for Mance, could Mel glamour Jon to allow him to escape the Wall and do what he needs to do without anyone knowing he's alive for awhile? That could be one way we could get Jon with no Kit for awhile (maybe they bring Kit back at the end to confirm it was Jon all along).

[TexasChic]

Rewatching the episode, I love how Drogon acts all snippy and hisses at Dany, it's exactly how I think my cat would react to me in a similar situation. But when the Dothraki start circling her, do they not see the big old freaking DRAGON laying RIGHT THERE?!!!

[Pogojoco]

Rewatching the episode, I love how Drogon acts all snippy and hisses at Dany, it's exactly how I think my cat would react to me in a similar situation. But when the Dothraki start circling her, do they not see the big old freaking DRAGON laying RIGHT THERE?!!!

I liked it cause he was basically a teenager with his mom- didn't want to get up and help her at all. It was kind of great. 

[Miles]

Rewatching the episode, I love how Drogon acts all snippy and hisses at Dany, it's exactly how I think my cat would react to me in a similar situation. But when the Dothraki start circling her, do they not see the big old freaking DRAGON laying RIGHT THERE?!!!

The dragon was up on the mountain you see behind Dany in that scene. They cut out her climbing down, since it wouldn't have added anything and they were stretched for time anyway.

[MadMouse]

Fun little crackpot about Jon, Rhaegar and Lyanna.

 

If you remember the story of Azor Ahai he had to temper his sword three times before Lightbringer was forged. And the third time it only worked because his wife sacrificed herself for him and her soul joined the sword. Rhaegar had two children already, the third is Jon and Lyanna died birthing him. So Jon in reality is Lightbringer.

[Maximum Taco]

Fun little crackpot about Jon, Rhaegar and Lyanna.

 

If you remember the story of Azor Ahai he had to temper his sword three times before Lightbringer was forged. And the third time it only worked because his wife sacrificed herself for him and her soul joined the sword. Rhaegar had two children already, the third is Jon and Lyanna died birthing him. So Jon in reality is Lightbringer.

 

This interferes with Aemon's understanding of Lightbringer though, Lightbringer is supposed to radiate heat, that's why Aemon dismisses Stannis' Lightbringer.

 

While I'm sure Jon produces the same body heat as a normal human, I don't think this counts.

[Hecate7]

I think it was "her bed of blood", which most people interpret to be her birthing bed. Child birth didn't always go well in old timy times.

Not just that, but "a bed of blood" or a "bloody bed" is used repeatedly as a slang term for the child birthing bed. There doesn't even have to be any blood in it, for a woman to be referred to in Westeros as lying in a bloody bed--it basically just means she just had a baby.

 

(Of course there would be blood even if it went very well. That's part of having babies).

Edited June 17, 2015 by Hecate7

[ralph]

Can I just say, I cannot for the like of me understand why anyone would ever say they like Cersei, that she is their favorite, or that she should sit the Iron Throne. Maybe, just maybe, I could understand if you've only watched the show and you see her as a "cool badass", but if you've read the books, how could you NOT see her as the insane, irrational bitch that she is and how she's be a wildly ineffective ruler. The show is one thing, because you can only SEE what happens, but in the books (since Cersei is a POV character), you're in her head as the plots and schemes against Margaery and the Tyrells out of nothing but pure jealousy (and a tad of paranoia because of Maggy the Frog). She walks around making stupid little insults about everyone she sees to justify scheming against them,ruining a power alliance just because she thinks she can be Queen forever.

[DigitalCount]

Fun little crackpot about Jon, Rhaegar and Lyanna.

If you remember the story of Azor Ahai he had to temper his sword three times before Lightbringer was forged. And the third time it only worked because his wife sacrificed herself for him and her soul joined the sword. Rhaegar had two children already, the third is Jon and Lyanna died birthing him. So Jon in reality is Lightbringer.

I like that, but at the same time if we're following the actual prophecy, wouldn't that make Lightbringer Rhaegar's, well, yeah? Considering that's what he stabbed Lyanna with that resulted in her death?

Also, does that make the joke a few years back about Loras stabbing Renly a clue to the mystery?

[Hanahope]

I believe it's called a Merkin.

 

Yes, that's the term.  I heard they were used on many of the brothel women because most young women these days shave all, or nearly all.

[proserpina65]

Why are people in here having a meltdown about Jon Snow actually being dead? 

Because he was the only one in any position of authority who really knew or cared about the shitstorm coming at Westeros from beyond the Wall.  If he's dead dead, who's going to rally the defense against the zombie army?  Dolorous Edd?  (Whom I love, but still.)

[BlackberryJam]

Aren't there still a fuckton of Wildling at the Wall? More than Thorne's 50 men a Castle Black.

[Avaleigh]

Because he was the only one in any position of authority who really knew or cared about the shitstorm coming at Westeros from beyond the Wall.  If he's dead dead, who's going to rally the defense against the zombie army?  Dolorous Edd?  (Whom I love, but still.)

Jon really should have sent around a memo to people of the realm about burning their dead. This totally should have happened and not just on the show. 

 

If the White Walkers get south of the Wall I don't know which territory will suck most the North or the Riverlands considering how many bodies are lying around. 

[MadMouse]

I like that, but at the same time if we're following the actual prophecy, wouldn't that make Lightbringer Rhaegar's, well, yeah? Considering that's what he stabbed Lyanna with that resulted in her death?

Also, does that make the joke a few years back about Loras stabbing Renly a clue to the mystery?

 

Prophecy doesn't always happen in the way people expect. Tempering a sword makes for a better legend than his wife died in childbirth. How old are they in this world thousands of years? Even if they're not that old people's interpretation of them can twist the meaning. Look at the three messiah like legends in the story. Are they the same person whose story has been absorbed into different cultures history or were there multiple people who fought the Long Night. Throw in the Dragon must have three heads and it gets even more confusing.

 

 

And honestly it was just something crackpot I thought about. I'm more in the camp that Jon's last chapter is fulfills the Azor Ahai prophecy myself and even then I don't know if I really buy it. Its just fun to come up with crazy theories.

[proserpina65]

Aren't there still a fuckton of Wildling at the Wall? More than Thorne's 50 men a Castle Black.

Would they fight for Aliser Thorne?  Or just haul ass south as fast as their legs will take them?

[nksarmi]

Well even in the books, the NW killed Jon without giving a thought to the Wildlings, because they are basically idiots.  I don't know what the hell comes next at the Wall, but Mel has to be involved somehow or they wouldn't have sent her back there.

[BlackberryJam]

Would they fight for Aliser Thorne? Or just haul ass south as fast as their legs will take them?

Fight or flight? I don't know. Why would they need to fight for Thorne? If the NW is as weak as we've been led to believe, Wun Wun could take out almost all of them in one mighty stomp. Castle Black has shelter, provisions, etc. The Wildlings can simply overpower the NW and take over the Wall.

Edited June 17, 2015 by BlackberryJam

[benteen]

Well even in the books, the NW killed Jon without giving a thought to the Wildlings, because they are basically idiots.  I don't know what the hell comes next at the Wall, but Mel has to be involved somehow or they wouldn't have sent her back there.

 

Not only not giving a thought to the Wildlings in the books but also near Melisandre, the Queen and her men.  Selyse didn't like Jon but she was pretty big on the idea of marrying nobles to the Wildlings. 

 

But yeah, the Night's Watch is just plain stupid in both the books and the show.

[Umbelina]

Well even in the books, the NW killed Jon without giving a thought to the Wildlings, because they are basically idiots.  I don't know what the hell comes next at the Wall, but Mel has to be involved somehow or they wouldn't have sent her back there.

I'm trying to remember the books.  Jon's story was SO different than the TV show's that it's apples and oranges. 

 

Everyone supported Ned killing that NW guy for breaking his vows and "deserting" but not the NW guys who killed Jon.  Essentially wasn't Jon breaking his vows too, about to leave the wall and march to Winterfell on a personal mission?  In Ned's world, killing Jon was the right thing to do.

 

The show really messed up with Jon's story and motivation, and honestly, I don't think it would have been that hard to stick with the book version, or add any time.  It's a rather important beat to the overall story after all.

[DigitalCount]

I'm trying to remember the books. Jon's story was SO different than the TV show's that it's apples and oranges.

Everyone supported Ned killing that NW guy for breaking his vows and "deserting" but not the NW guys who killed Jon. Essentially wasn't Jon breaking his vows too, about to leave the wall and march to Winterfell on a personal mission? In Ned's world, killing Jon was the right thing to do.

The show really messed up with Jon's story and motivation, and honestly, I don't think it would have been that hard to stick with the book version, or add any time. It's a rather important beat to the overall story after all.

I don't know if I'd consider marching on Winterfell to be breaking the vow. Ramsay has declared his intentions to destroy the Night's Watch, only promising to relent (likely a load of crap) if Jon agrees to terms that are impossible to meet. He does not have Arya, he has no idea who Reek is, it's insane to think he could have met those demands. Of course, the only other option given by Ramsay is a curb stomp battle that ends with flayed banners on the Wall. So he essentially plans to use Show!Ramsay's plan in reverse to preserve the integrity of the Watch.

Jon was acting in perfect accordance with his duty as Lord Commander. An attack on the Wall necessitates reasonable action to preserve it. Just because Night's Watch idiots think that people in the past built a huge wall out of ice and magic to keep out a bunch of dirty hair band groupies, it doesn't mean it's true.

Edited June 17, 2015 by DigitalCount

[Umbelina]

I agree it was ambiguous, but to me anyway, Jon's motivation was much more about Arya, and did break the vow about "no outside conflicts."  http://www.wired.com/2015/06/game-of-thrones-recap-s05-e10/ A pretty good show vs book list, Jon's at the end. 

 

Anyway, the show didn't seem to capture any of the nuances there, so the NW just look like murderers and fools.  It didn't really make sense to me, even though Jon may not have called them all together and explained why he brought the wildlings back, (stupid) or what he saw in Hardhome, there were a LOT of witnesses, and surely most of them would be talking about the very real, and witnessed, threat from the North.  ???

Edited June 17, 2015 by Umbelina

[benteen]

Yep.  Jon did break his vows, first by involving himself in an outside conflict (going along with Melisandre's plan to send Mance to Winterfell to rescue Arya).  Then he announced he was leaving the Wall to lead an army of volunteers against Ramsay at Winterfell.  He had to respond to Ramsay's threat I understand but the only reason Ramsay threatened the Watch was because of Jon's interference.  I think the Watch would have ended up moving against Jon anyway over the Wildling situation but involving himself in a personal dispute with Ramsay gave them the cover they needed to make things official.

 

Bowen Marsh bitching about Jon aiding Stannis is ridiculous though.  Stannis was the only king who responded to their call to help and they all should have been kissing his ass.  Stannis could end up being the king so I see no issue with helping him out although you can definitely argue with Jon giving him tactical advice but still...

[nksarmi]

I'm trying to remember the books.  Jon's story was SO different than the TV show's that it's apples and oranges. 

 

Everyone supported Ned killing that NW guy for breaking his vows and "deserting" but not the NW guys who killed Jon.  Essentially wasn't Jon breaking his vows too, about to leave the wall and march to Winterfell on a personal mission?  In Ned's world, killing Jon was the right thing to do.

 

The show really messed up with Jon's story and motivation, and honestly, I don't think it would have been that hard to stick with the book version, or add any time.  It's a rather important beat to the overall story after all.

 

Ok but see the thing is that in the books, Jon was not deserting the NW if I recall correctly - he merely wanted to involve them in a fight.  He was trying to lead them, not desert the. 

 

And as Davos pointed out just this season, the NW oath does not actually say the cannot takes sides in a conflict. Much like it says they cannot take a wife or father children but doesn't require a vow of chastity.  It says they cannot wear crowns or win glory, but it doesn't say that they will remain neutral in time of conflict.  It does say they will not abandon their post (desertion), but since they can range beyond the Wall and go to KL to collect men and Benjen can go collect men from WF - I see no reason Jon can't lead men to WF on NW business.

 

So all in all, this was mutiny in the books just like in the show and what they did to Jon was no different than what they did to LC Mormount.  That's why I was disappointed to see Ser Allister involved.  They should have left him out of it so he could arrest and try the men who stabbed Jon and rise to lead the NW without blood on his hands.  As is, the NW is lead by idiots who can't see the forest through the trees and killed the only man who could have saved them.

[proserpina65]

Fight or flight? I don't know. Why would they need to fight for Thorne? If the NW is as weak as we've been led to believe, Wun Wun could take out almost all of them in one mighty stomp. Castle Black has shelter, provisions, etc. The Wildlings can simply overpower the NW and take over the Wall.

Because someone would have to be in charge, and the Wildlings don't tend to respond well to authority.  Their general instinct would be to get as far south as south goes.  It was basically Jon (with an assist from Tormund) holding the tentative alliance together, and without Jon, I don't think Tormund would be able to keep the vast majority of Wildlings at the Wall to fight.  Ser Alliser is the ranking member of the Night's Watch left at Castle Black, and he doesn't seem to understand the threat of the WW and their zombie army.  For me, without Jon to keep things together, the defense of the Wall, and thus the realm below it, falls apart quickly, so there seems to be so much more story there which would just trail off limply if he's really dead for good.

[Hecate7]

Rewatching the episode, I love how Drogon acts all snippy and hisses at Dany, it's exactly how I think my cat would react to me in a similar situation. But when the Dothraki start circling her, do they not see the big old freaking DRAGON laying RIGHT THERE?!!!

 

Didn't she walk down the mountain quite a long way before being circled by the Dothraki?

[Umbelina]

"Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come."

 

Well, this handily released Jon from his vows anyway.

 

I do like the wildlings, I'd say, all in all, they really are the most modern characters in the show.  They elect leaders, and have a great deal of freedom.

[benteen]

I don't think the Night's Watch can become involved in an outside conflict.  However, looing over a Wiki of Ice and Fire there's an entry about a Lord Commander named Hoare, the brother of King Harren the Black of the Iron Islands and the Riverlands.  King Harren was roasted alive by Aegon Targaryen during his Conquest of Westeros.  It's noted that Lord Commander Hoare "commanded ten thousand swords at the Wall", he remained loyal to the Watch and did not intervene even after his brother and family were slain.  So there had apparently been some speculation that the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch would march his forces against Aegon.  I wonder if that would have been considered a special circumstance considering Westeros was being invaded by an outsider who brought three dragons along with him.

[oliverwendell]

 

Aren't there still a fuckton of Wildling at the Wall? More than Thorne's 50 men a Castle Black.

 

I'm not sure about this.  I thought they were heading through the gate to settle in the empty farmlands south of the Wall that Jon promised them.  They agreed to fight with the Night's Watch against the White Walkers "when the time comes," but until then, they're just going to farm and try to survive.  Plus, why would they hang out at Castle Black with all their children and old people who need shelter?  I could be wrong, but I don't think they are on site anymore.  

[Avaleigh]

I'm not sure about this.  I thought they were heading through the gate to settle in the empty farmlands south of the Wall that Jon promised them.  They agreed to fight with the Night's Watch against the White Walkers "when the time comes," but until then, they're just going to farm and try to survive.  Plus, why would they hang out at Castle Black with all their children and old people who need shelter?  I could be wrong, but I don't think they are on site anymore.  

I wondered if maybe Edd was somehow helping them settle and that this is why he wasn't present for Jon's assassination. 

[MadMouse]

From a literal stand point Jon broke his vows the minute he told Stannis not to attack the Dreadfort. He gave him advice on how to increase his army by recruiting the mountain clans and strategy about taking Deepwood Motte. But on the other hand the realm has broken its vows to the NW. They're not sending aid when its needed, they've been left to fend for themselves. So you have to ask yourself if the realm has broken its contract with the NW is he really breaking his vows to secure its safety and future.

[SeanC]

And as Davos pointed out just this season, the NW oath does not actually say the cannot takes sides in a conflict. Much like it says they cannot take a wife or father children but doesn't require a vow of chastity.  It says they cannot wear crowns or win glory, but it doesn't say that they will remain neutral in time of conflict. 

Davos' speech was total nonsense, as was Sam's.  In both cases it's overly literal nitpicking words over the spirit of the oath, which is that the Night's Watch men are chaste and do not involve themselves in the affairs of the realm.  That's why the Watch has kept itself apart since its inception.

[oliverwendell]

 

But on the other hand the realm has broken its vows to the NW. They're not sending aid when its needed, they've been left to fend for themselves. So you have to ask yourself if the realm has broken its contract with the NW is he really breaking his vows to secure its safety and future.

 

I agree.  I hate everyone who was in on the stabbing, but this has always made me feel so sad for the NW.  They're a bunch of castoffs and misfits who've been tasked with defending the very civilization that wants no part of them. They've sworn a vow that required them to give up every chance at a normal life and live in a frozen wasteland so they could focus on doing that.  And now that the doom they've been watching for for millenia is finally upon them, they've been utterly forsaken by the people they're protecting.  It's a wonder there's even 47 of them left, if you ask me.

[nksarmi]

Davos' speech was total nonsense, as was Sam's.  In both cases it's overly literal nitpicking words over the spirit of the oath, which is that the Night's Watch men are chaste and do not involve themselves in the affairs of the realm.  That's why the Watch has kept itself apart since its inception.

They pretty much admitted that no one would man the wall if they executed every man who wasn't chaste.  In fact, they are so not chaste that they keep a nearby brothel in business.  And we have no way of knowing (unless it's in that world book I've never read) that no where in the thousands of years of NW history that they weren't forced into or voluntarily got involved in the affairs of the "realm."  After all, only about 300 years ago, their sole ruling house would have been the Starks, correct?

[DigitalCount]

Davos' speech was total nonsense, as was Sam's.  In both cases it's overly literal nitpicking words over the spirit of the oath, which is that the Night's Watch men are chaste and do not involve themselves in the affairs of the realm.  That's why the Watch has kept itself apart since its inception.

How is the Lord of Winterfell leading an attack on the wall an affair of the Realm and not, say, a huge danger to the Watch that needs to be neutralized? It's like Janos Slynt; yes, Jon held anger toward him for his part in Ned's execution, but Janos was also an insubordinate piece of crap who had tried to have him killed once and would likely do so again. Jon's not a robot, and obviously he wanted to save his home. But there is absolutely no way that the actions he took voided the Wall's neutrality. If he wanted to keep the "spirit" of the oath, he could do so even into the spirit world--his last breath could be "take no part" as Ramsay butchers his final defenders (or rather random guys standing around him, since defending himself is apparently meddling in the affairs of the kingdom).

 

I think this interpretation is wacky, as may be apparent. Why even send a secret assassin, if all it takes to kill a Night's Watchman is being a noble or working on the say-so of a noble? Why not just send a couple Whitecloaks or Lannister guardsmen, on official business, to execute Jon for some trumped up charge? If they don't make it back, that's grounds to send in an army to take out the remainder. If the Night's Watch is unable to defend itself from any attack from the Realm, then a disgruntled enough noble who felt like Guy #5 shouldn't have gotten the chance to take the black can just wait for them to be sent north, then send some guys to kill him.

Edited June 17, 2015 by DigitalCount

[nksarmi]

I love the suggestion that the realm has broken its pact with the NW.  I need to understand how this works though - it seems to me that mostly it was the Starks and the North that supported the Wall for hundreds of years.  Have any of the other 6 kingdoms supported them in earnest?  And did the Targ conquest of the 7 kingdoms change that?  Maybe this is better for the NW thread....I just think there is something to the idea that in order to protect the realms of men, you have to be sure that a king rules that will support the Wall. 

 

I honestly think Davos had a legitimate argument.  Now as it turns out Stannis isn't worth trusting for shit - but how does the NW protect a realm with a ruler like Geoffrey who would rather torture animals than give the Wall the men they need or Tommen who can't even deal with the FM in the capital?  There is something to be said for needing to do what you must to preserve the mission you are on.  And I still don't see anything in those vows that says they won't get involved in anything.

[FemmyV]

but how does the NW protect a realm with a ruler like Geoffrey who would rather torture animals than give the Wall the men they need or Tommen who can't even deal with the FM in the capital? There is something to be said for needing to do what you must to preserve the mission you are on.

For that matter, how did the number of people who would rather freeze their asses off, year round, than swear fealty to the throne grow so huge, as to wake up the WWs?

[TexasChic]

Didn't she walk down the mountain quite a long way before being circled by the Dothraki?

Someone else pointed out that she had walked down a mountain, so I guess that does explain it. It just seems to me a dragon would be pretty visible, especially when he was flying around. But I guess you can't get too picky about something that happened offscreen. 

[SeanC]

They pretty much admitted that no one would man the wall if they executed every man who wasn't chaste.

That just means they don't obey their vows, not that their vows don't mandate chastity.  That's clearly the intent, and everyone understands that.

 

How is the Lord of Winterfell leading an attack on the wall an affair of the Realm and not, say, a huge danger to the Watch that needs to be neutralized?

Jon was actively aligning himself with Ramsay's political enemies, including coaching him on how to defeat Ramsay, and harbouring Stannis' family and a chunk of his army, and sending agents to facilitate the abduction/rescue of fArya.

 

Ramsay is a vile villain, but Jon was the one who abandoned neutrality first (even if for reasons that are understandable from his POV) -- Ramsay is undeniably correct to regard Jon as a hostile factor at this point.

 

I love the suggestion that the realm has broken its pact with the NW.  I need to understand how this works though - it seems to me that mostly it was the Starks and the North that supported the Wall for hundreds of years.  Have any of the other 6 kingdoms supported them in earnest?  

All of the kingdoms used to regard the Watch as a valuable and prestigious place to send people, to keep the Walkers at bay.  Then people stopped believing in the Walkers, since nobody had seen them for thousands of years, and the prestige of the place declined; eventually, for most people, it was just where you sent criminals, political opponents (e.g., Nymeria sending six rival Dornish kings to the Wall in golden chains) and younger sons who had no prospects.

 

And I still don't see anything in those vows that says they won't get involved in anything.

Quoth Maester Aemon, the expert on the history and mission of the Night's Watch:

 

The men who formed the Night's Watch knew that only their courage shielded the realm from the darkness to the north.  They knew they must have no divided loyalties to weaken their resolve.  So they vowed they would have no wives or children.

 

Yet brothers they had, and sisters.  Mothers who gave them birth, fathers who gave them names.  They came from a hundred quarrelsome kingdoms, and they knew times may change, but men do not.  So they pledged as well that the Night's Watch would take no part in the battles of the realms it guarded.

 

They kept their pledge.  When Aegon slew Black Harren and claimed his kingdom, Harren's brother was Lord Commander on the Wall, with ten thousand swords to hand.  He did not march.  In the days when the Seven Kingdoms were seven kingdoms, not a generation passed that three or four of them were not at war. The Watch took no part.  When the Andals crossed the narrow sea and swept away the kingdoms of the First Men, the sons of the fallen kings held true to their vows and remained at their posts.  So it has always been, for years beyond counting.  Such is the price of honour. (AGOT Jon VIII)

Edited June 18, 2015 by SeanC

[nksarmi]

SeanC -thank you for the quote.  I still think the problem the current NW faces is different though.  When the Watch had 10,000 men and could make a difference but sat out, you could say they were doing their duty to the Wall.  But now the NW is vastly undermanned and has one lord/king in all the realm willing to give them more men.  In the book, I do think fAyra was at the heart of the matter for Jon which is as problematic as real Ayra not giving up Needle.  However, I think if the show had changed up the order of things and had Davos make it to the Wall with Stannis' offer and Jon took him up on it before FTW we would have a much more interesting conversation.  Because in that case, he would have been getting involved on the promise of a lord/king who would renew the commitment to the NW and send him enough men to man every castle on the Wall.  If Jon had the chance to accept Stannis' offer, would he be breaking his vows or saving the Watch?

[MadMouse]

The NW since the series started has always been involved or made decisions that involved the realm. The Old Bear tells Tyrion he let Waymar Royce lead the ranging from the first chapter of the series to curry favor with his father. The same with Benjen being sent to Winterfell, get your brother the King's best friend to help us. Bowen Marsh was backing Slynt because Tywin wanted a Lannister puppet in command of the Watch. That's part of the reason Marsh and company were against helping Stannis, fear of the crown. The idea that Jon is the first LC to break this sacred vow is absurd.

[dr pepper]

Just an FYI on the body double, I believe she was wearing a pubic wig, and Lena Headey was making fun of it. Not the body double, but the pubic wig. So the blonde pubes were do-able for Lena. I'm not sure why she choose not to do the walk.

 

Is there a specific term for a pubic wig? I do not want to google that.

 

merkin. it also can mean a chest wig-- like what Austin Powers had.