Speculation WITHOUT Spoilers: Lalalalala! I can't hear you!

[InsertWordHere]

It would be very boring if she was from the Snow/Regina Era.

It's always bugged me that all the Princesses are contemporaries of Snow's. I don't need Elsa to specifically be from Hook/Rumple's era, but I agree that we don't need another princess from the Snow era. There's hundreds of years between Bae's bean and Regina's curse, how come there aren't any tales of princesses or true loves or misunderstood villains from the time between? What sort of history and stories did Snow and Charming learn growing up if almost every fairy tale was happening in their era? We have a huge gap between the tale of Rumpelstiltskin, Peter Pan, and Captain Hook, with only the origin stories of Geppetto (and even then, Pinnochio's story takes place concurrently with Snow's and Aurora's and Cinderella's) and the Queen of Hearts to fill the time in between. Surely, something else happened in all those years? Why does this show suck at world building? I actually wish that they hadn't introduced Lancelot in Season 2, because Arthur's tale would have served well as a legend that Snow and Charming would have grown up hearing.

 

We know Snow was born at the end of a harsh winter, I'm kind of hoping that it was during Elsa's original freeze. Of course, this might be a case of be careful what you wish for, because I was interested in seeing OUaT: The Parent Generation in 3.18 (once it became clear that Leopold was not Zelena's Daddy because they had me worried for a minute there) and was pretty disappointed with the outcome.

 

I was pondering the Will issue as I mowed the grass (because that's just boring and annoying as all get-out, and I tend to zone out during it), and it struck me that we could get Will from ANY point in his life, thanks to the White Rabbit being able to time-hop as well as realm-hop with his holes.

Ah, I love speculating on this show while doing housework, it's one of my favorite ways to get through odious tasks! However, as far as we know, the White Rabbit did not time hop. It's confusing as hell, but apparently, Alice's Victorian World is not actually our Victorian England, but a different realm altogether, just like Whale's Black and White land. So, as things stand now, there was no White Rabbit time hopping. 

 

It could be that George comes from a long line of jerks, haha. There's no reason it couldn't be dreamshade. Perhaps others have been to Neverland that we haven't been told about.

Hmm, doesn't Hook, who knows quite a lot about dreamshade, point out to Emma that Jack's sword is laced in poison in Tallahassee? You all might be on to something here. I think I need to rewatch Tiny and see what Jack and James have to say about the poison. Jack also has Wonderland mushrooms, and IIRC, she claimed that she had defeated the Jabberwocky. Maybe she had yet another portal-hopping device that Rumple missed! Maybe she was invading the giant's lair so she could get a bean to get back to Wonderland or Neverland. Maybe I should stop before I start inventing Jack the Giant Slayer head canons.

 

I really want George, his cursed wife, and his kingdom to somehow tie into someone's backstory.

[KingOfHearts]

I'm wondering if Rumple will ever lose his power as the Dark One, via a True Love's Kiss with Belle. Having Rumple lose his magic would be huge for him as a character. I'm not saying that he'd go all good-guy after losing his power, but I think it would definitely humble him quite a bit. He could still be evil. I don't believe Rumple has magic outside of the Dark One curse, but he still has access to a plethora of magical items in his shop. The fact Regina is more powerful than him would definitely freak him out, as those two have always been in a power struggle. I actually half-way expected this to happen at the Rumpbelle wedding.

 

I'm not necessary in favor of the idea, but it's just a thought. Any of the magic wielders losing their magic (besides Emma) would be interesting to see. If Belle gets the real dagger, we may see the same effect.

Edited July 13, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Mari]

If Belle gets the real dagger, we may see the same effect.

I am desperately hoping Belle does not ever have long term, serious control over Rumple's dagger--simply because of squickiness of someone being in a relationship with a person who he/she is physically incapable of disobeying.

[Souris]

I know if somebody kills the Dark One, they become the Dark One. But the Dark One losing his powers by TLK, how would that work? I can't remember if they told that on the show. Would the power just dissipate into the ether and the Dark One line come to an end? Would it transfer into somebody else who just happened to be standing nearby? Would it be held in the dagger much like Zelena's pendant?

[KingOfHearts]

Cora mentioned in The Miller's Daughter that if Rumple died, all his power would just bubble off into the air, and there would be no new Dark One. That's how I think it would play out if he got TLK'd.

 

I'm honestly so tired of the dagger stuff after all the Zelena-dagger-addiction in 3B. However, if Rumple just keeps the dagger, there's no fun in that. I hope something happens in S4. Reformed Rumple really makes Team Hero too powerful. On the flip side, it made Zelena overpowered to have him on her side. That power needs to balance itself out somewhere, otherwise it makes things too convenient.

Edited July 14, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

If they are really going for their usual bad-guy-loses-but-so-do-the-good-guys plus with character parallels, they could have Regina having trouble dealing with Robin/Marion and then Regina finds out that Hook is hiding the fact that Elsa was his first love before she was bottled up in an urn.  Maybe they are still dealing with something that happened in their youth, which would give us a Hook flashback to flesh out the story and his deep connection to Elsa.  Then, through a complex series of events, Emma for the first time is tempted to turn "dark", seeing how much more powerful magic induced by anger becomes.  Regina helps pull Emma back from the brink, and vice versa.  And then, as Robin/Marion and Elsa/Hook (maybe their true love kiss melts Storybrooke) ride off into the sunset at the end of 4A, Regina and Emma will end up in the same situation, and both will have to deal with getting hurt after they open up their hearts to someone for the first time in a long time.  Adam or Eddy really stressed in an interview that Regina and Emma are a lot alike, so this would really amp up the parallelism, though in the opposite sense.  Robin Hood helped Regina to get closer to having a normal human relationship, and Emma helped motivate Hook's rehabilitation to true love material for Elsa.

Edited July 14, 2014 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

Hook has referred to Milah as his First Love, and he thinks of Emma as his True Love, though. I really can't see the writers splitting up CS at this point. Much as it would be nice to have Hook connected with Elsa's story in some way, I have a feeling that Rumple is going to have the biggest connection to her. They will tie it in with the fake-dagger plot somehow.  

[KingOfHearts]

Elsa might be a wake-up call for Belle if Rumple ruined her life. It parallels Marian in that it puts a human face on the things Rumple has done in the past. Marian is going to mess with Outlaw Queen, and Elsa might mess with Rumpbelle. Rumple and Regina have their work cut out for them in S4.

 

I'd like to see a connection with Hook and Elsa as well. If they don't go the "they're related" route, perhaps Arendelle is the kingdom Hook lived in with Liam. Arendelle is known for its harbors and sea trade, so it's highly plausible Hook at least docked there before.

Edited July 14, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

It would be cool if Elsa's parents were descended from the corrupt King who ruled in Killian and Liam's time. Unless they decide that Elsa has been frozen in time for 200/300 years, and was a contemporary of Hook and Rumple. They could go either way with that. However, I'm leaning towards a much closer date. That way, they can have Anna, Kristoff etc. conveniently frozen in time for 28 years just like Zelena was. 

[ShadowFacts]

 

Adam or Eddy really stressed in an interview that Regina and Emma are a lot alike, so this would really amp up the parallelism, though in the opposite sense.

 

That really makes me kind of nauseated.  If Regina and Emma are a lot alike, I don't see it, I don't want to see it and what the hell?  They haven't written them even a little alike.  Is Emma self-absorbed, delusional, psychopathic, murderous, minus a conscience and toxic in her interactions with others?  Nooooope.

[Camera One]

I know... it's a real stretch and quite delusional.  What else is new, though, LOL.

[KingOfHearts]

Regina and Emma are as polar opposite as you can get. That's probably why they have such great chemistry as actors in their scenes together. I'd love to see more similarities with Emma and Hook this season. I think they're more alike than Emma would like to admit.

[kili]

Elsa might be a wake-up call for Belle if Rumple ruined her life. It parallels Marian in that it puts a human face on the things Rumple has done in the past.

 

Belle has already been given lots of human faces on the things Rumple has done in the past. Robin (flailing), Hook (girlfriend killing and hand removal), Sheriff of Nottingham (beating nearly to death), Whale (severe beating), Father (beating nearly to death) and the entire town of Storybrooke (let's face it, he was as much behind the curse as the Evil Queen) not to mention she may have met the son of the guy he turned into a pig, so I'm not sure why Elsa would tip the balance.

 

I don't think Belle is going to understand that Rumple's victims are not always to blame and that Rumple's heart may not be quite as pure as she believes until he does something directly to her (she seems to understand when she is the victim) or she tries to use the dagger to control him (realizing he has been lying to her all along).

 

I suspect that she will discover that she can't control with the dagger when he goes off the rails (I'm not sure if Rumple will rub her nose in about it or not).

[Camera One]

Maybe instead of going to the Trolls, Elsa's parents went to the Blue Fairy, who gives them a bean so they can go to a land without magic.  So they open the portal but just when the whole family was about to jump, Anna runs off and Elsa chases after her, and so neither of them ended up in a portal?

 

Blue: Oops. Didn't see that one coming.

[angelwoody]

I don't think Belle is going to understand that Rumple's victims are not always to blame and that Rumple's heart may not be quite as pure as she believes until he does something directly to her (she seems to understand when she is the victim) or she tries to use the dagger to control him (realizing he has been lying to her all along).

 

I suspect that she will discover that she can't control with the dagger when he goes off the rails (I'm not sure if Rumple will rub her nose in about it or not).

This is what I really want to see.  I want to see the moment it clicks into place for Belle that the whole proposal (and therefore the whole wedding) was really a sham.  A game of "follow the lady" as he gloated to Zelena.  How gross is that by the way?  Bad enough he deceived the woman he claims to love so much, but he bragged about it!

[KingOfHearts]

 

Belle has already been given lots of human faces on the things Rumple has done in the past.

 

That may be true, but they may play Elsa out as a human face in the writing. The logic and how the writing actually executes are usually far from each other.

 

Sadly, it appears Belle already knows Rumple is a bad person and actually likes it. Her line in Quiet Minds, "I loved all of Rumple... even the dark parts" made that quite clear. She didn't seem to have a problem with Lacey enabling him, either. I honestly don't think Rumple loves her as epically as they want us to believe. It was pretty obvious he loved Bae more than Belle. He only wants Belle for her rad cheerleading skills.

 

Of course Rumpbelle just got married, so I'd say their romance arc has already hit its height it seems. Belle knows full well how deceitful Rumple is, yet she stays with him. She's got major psychological issues. At least the Beast in the Disney movie turned out to be a good husband in the end. Rumple, however, is far from that.

 

S4 will either show an epic downturn for the couple, or more Belle pep rallies. 

Edited July 14, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

Belle has Stockholm Syndrome or she's as crazy as Rumple is.

 

Besides, isn't TLK supposed to make him lose his powers or something like that?  Because if that's the case then...you know!

[angelwoody]

That's the biggest bummer about this iteration of Beauty and the Beast.  Belle's commitment to Rumple as he is and will apparently remain shows Belle to be either stupid (which she's not supposed to be), delusional (again doesn't jibe) or worst of all, severely lacking in morality and integrity.

[Souris]

Maybe instead of going to the Trolls, Elsa's parents went to the Blue Fairy, who gives them a bean so they can go to a land without magic.  So they open the portal but just when the whole family was about to jump, Anna runs off and Elsa chases after her, and so neither of them ended up in a portal?

 

Blue: Oops. Didn't see that one coming.

 

I don't think they'll be allowed to change the Frozen movie occurrences.

[ShadowFacts]

Belle has Stockholm Syndrome or she's as crazy as Rumple is.

 

Besides, isn't TLK supposed to make him lose his powers or something like that?  Because if that's the case then...you know!

 

Yes, Rumple said that true love breaks any curse.  So he should be released out of the Dark One curse.  They can't play it like with David and Mary Margaret, who didn't have their memories/personalities, or Henry without his memories.  So what's the out?  That it's not really a curse?  Or that he doesn't really love Belle?  Maybe she will realize that during one of her book reading sessions.

[Serena]

Rumple has to want his curse to be broken, he has to allow TLK to work in order to lose the DO power. Right now, he loves his power more than he loves Belle, so that's not happening.

[stealinghome]

It seems pretty clear that intention really matters as far as True Love's Kiss goes. Thus I don't think Rumpel's curse not breaking means Rumbelle isn't True Love. I just think it means that they kiss (as True Loves do) but actively don't want his curse to break, ergo it doesn't.

[Rumsy4]

With all the deception and denial going on, it's hard for me to consider Rumbelle as having True Love anymore. Maybe they can build it back, but what was once there is gone, as far as I am concerned.

[Shanna Marie]

With all the deception and denial going on, it's hard for me to consider Rumbelle as having True Love anymore. Maybe they can build it back, but what was once there is gone, as far as I am concerned.

Yeah, it seems to me like if you're willing to choose to have something else rather than True Love, it can't really be True Love. I could sort of handwave it pre-curse because he was holding onto power in order to get to his son. But now, if he kisses her and the curse isn't broken, I have to say that it no longer counts as True Love because he loves something else more. Plus, the lying and deception and stuff.

 

It does make me wonder, though, is it possible for evil people to have True Love? Like if there are two evil people who love each other and support each other's evil goals and are totally on board with the evil things they both do because they consider those things to be good, would that still count as True Love? Like maybe dark love magic?

[legaleagle53]

Belle has Stockholm Syndrome or she's as crazy as Rumple is.

 

Besides, isn't TLK supposed to make him lose his powers or something like that?  Because if that's the case then...you know!

 

Only if he's willing to allow it.  The first time she tried that, he figured out what she was doing and that Regina had put her up to it, and he put a stop to it before it could completely destroy his powers as the Dark One.

Edited July 14, 2014 by legaleagle53

[Mari]

Yeah, it seems to me like if you're willing to choose to have something else rather than True Love, it can't really be True Love. I could sort of handwave it pre-curse because he was holding onto power in order to get to his son. But now, if he kisses her and the curse isn't broken, I have to say that it no longer counts as True Love because he loves something else more. Plus, the lying and deception and stuff.

 

It does make me wonder, though, is it possible for evil people to have True Love? Like if there are two evil people who love each other and support each other's evil goals and are totally on board with the evil things they both do because they consider those things to be good, would that still count as True Love? Like maybe dark love magic?

If they were willing to go there, they've actually done set-up that would make for a very interesting storyline--what happens to your True Love relationship when you don't choose true love?

 

• Emma/Neal:  Could be  True Love potentials that didn't work out because he didn't trust it, and left her to her fate.  There's enough to show that Emma went above and beyond her usual relationship boundaries to reunite with him.  (two years in Tallahasee?)
• Belle/Rumple:  Continually choosing power over their relationship.  It simply dies a more prolonged death.  They still care about each other, but it's no longer "True"
• Regina/Robin:  True Love potential, but Regina chose vengeance and power over Robin, and he moved on.  They're still drawn to each other, but unable to actualy make that actual True Love connection.

 

I don't think it'll actually happen, though. 

 

Regina would be unhappy, and the show seems pretty committed to Regina getting what she wants.

 

As for Dark Love magic?  That'd be an interesting story, too, but at the same time--doesn't actual love require more willingness to sacrifice your own happiness than any of the villains on Once have shown?

 

Edited because I actually do know when to use apostrophes.

Edited July 15, 2014 by Mari

[stealinghome]

I think the problem is that the show has been in such a rush to give everyone True Love (seriously, the writers are like Oprah, "Here's a True Love for you! And for you! And one for you!") that the idea of True Love has kind of become so expansive as to become meaningless. Like, I'm not surprised that they're spinning Regina and Robin as soulmates (iirc that's all they've been referred to in-show) instead of True Loves, because soulmates seems to be how the show is envisioning romantic True Love, post-season 1. It's the idea that there is One Person For You, that no matter where or how you find them there's a connection, and that it doesn't matter who you are or what you've done, you both go all in on that connection.

 

The problem is, S1 showed that real True Love is selfless, always giving--faithful, kind, does not boast, the whole nine yards. There seemed to be a moral element, a purity, to True Love in S1 that is lacking now. I mean, even freaking Dreamy and Nova made each other into their best selves! But that doesn't seem to be the case anymore at all. ("Bold and audacious" comes to mind here, vomit.)

[Shanna Marie]

As for Dark Love magic?  That'd be an interesting story, too, but at the same time--doesn't actual love require more willingness to sacrifice your own happiness than any of the villain's on Once have shown?

I guess that would be the tricky part, since being evil enough to be, well, evil tends not to come with other true love-associated traits like selflessness. Hook and Milah were probably more "bad" than "evil" (though we don't know what their piracy entailed) and they were willing to sacrifice for each other. I still don't like to think of them as True Love, since it started in such an ugly way and sent him down such a dark path, but if, say, instead of her being a married woman with a child she was abandoning she was a single bar wench who longed for adventure and ran away with him, they might have had the potential to be True Love even while being somewhat naughty. Or maybe you get one of those "we shall rule the world together!" evil power couples where they'd slaughter villages, but they'd still give their lives for each other. I'm just spitballing hypotheticals here, but it might be fun to see a couple like that without either of them being redeemed. Like if, say, Maleficent met an evil sorcerer and sparks flew, and they'd do anything for each other while still being evil to others.

[Camera One]

Replying in Relationships Thread.

[Serena]

If they were willing to go there, they've actually done set-up that would make for a very interesting storyline--what happens to your True Love relationship when you don't choose true love?

But according to the season 1 definition of True Love, you couldn't have TL if you didn't choose it. Like, I'm actually really annoying that (especially with the OQ storyline) they're making it seem like TL is just something that's there, you can choose to ignore it for 30+ years in order to make evil deeds instead, you can actively choose power instead of it, but hey! some fairy dust told you it's TL so it must be so, no character development required. That's bullshit. Snow and Charming actively chose each other over and over during their journey in season 1. They were tested and from the beginning, they always passed. 

And this is not a problem with Rumple and Regina being evil. I would not have a problem with an evil person having TL... if they chose it over anything else. I actually would love to see an evil version of Snowing, with a TL just as strong, with the only difference being that they do evil instead of good. But they still have to chose each other over anything else.

[stealinghome]

I actually would love to see an evil version of Snowing, with a TL just as strong, with the only difference being that they do evil instead of good.

Oh man, so much this. That would be so cool!

[kitticup]

For me Dark Heart (Rumple and Cora) could have been the dark TL couple.  They are well matched for each other and respect each other.  If Cora hadn't chosen power over love, like Rumple did.  They would have been scary awesome together.

 

I don't think Rumbelle is TL any longer.  That Rumple keeps choosing his dark power over Belle means that it is not TL.  I wish the show would explore that.

[ShadowFacts]

 

I don't think Rumbelle is TL any longer.  That Rumple keeps choosing his dark power over Belle means that it is not TL.  I wish the show would explore that.

 

So do I, and they're going to have to explore something, because Belle in the dark about the dagger and just being happy Mrs. Gold isn't going to happen, it would be boring and there needs to be drama.  And not to belabor the point, but if Rumple had to stop the initial kiss in his castle in order to keep the Dark One curse from breaking, that says to me that intention does not matter.  If he did not want the curse to break and that trumped, he wouldn't have needed to stop.  That he can kiss Belle now and the curse doesn't break because he doesn't want it to, doesn't make sense and doesn't fit with what we were initially shown.  So I'm thinking it is not  true love. 

[KingOfHearts]

Continuing a conversation from the Spoilers thread about pure speculation concerning Hook getting a frozen heart from Elsa...

 

It's possible a TLK wouldn't work to break that, because if Hook gets totally frozen like Anna did at the very end of Frozen, the ice might get in the way between Emma's lips and his. The show did this in What Happened to Frederick. She could probably kiss him before that, but it could be that she's away and can't get to him before he becomes totally frozen. Or a TLK doesn't work at all, and it has to be an act of True Love.

 

There's a lot of creativity to be spent with what Emma could do for Hook that would be an ATL. (Act of True Love) In my mind, it would be something along the lines of trading the Jolly Roger's level of devotion.

Edited July 18, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[stealinghome]

I was kind of hoping it would work last season so that we could see what happens when the kiss beats you to the punch.  Can you have a true love's kiss when you haven't admitted your feelings to yourself?  But from the examples we've seen so far, it does appear that you have to believe it's true loves kiss for it to work.

I'm not quite sure that it's that you have to believe/know it's True Love--it's more than you have to be open to the idea, if that makes sense. Open to the possibility. I don't think Dark Snow in 1x16 knew that what she had with Charming was True Love, but his speech to her convinced her to open her heart a little bit and give him a chance; I don't know that Emma fully realized she True Loved Henry in 1x22, but whether or not she could have admitted/articulated it, it's clear that she was overflowing with love for him in that moment (perhaps the first where she just let herself feel for him without trying to put a brake on it or rationalize it). And Rumbelle definitely didn't know it was True Love when they kissed in 1x12. So...I think you could have a True Love's Kiss if you haven't quite admitted your feelings to yourself, yes, BUT I don't think it would work if you were straight-up in denial or rejecting those feelings (hence why all Charming's first kiss to Snow in 1x16 got him was a rock to the head).

 

I don't know that I like the idea of Emma having a True Love's Kiss with Hook and only then realizing that they have True Love, though. Emma has generally speaking had so little agency in her own life that it seems to me like that would be another thing that seems to make her choice preordained, or points her toward a certain fate. If she and Hook have a True Love's Kiss, I want it to be because she can look him in the eye and say "I love you" first.

[KAOS Agent]

 

I don't know that I like the idea of Emma having a True Love's Kiss with Hook and only then realizing that they have True Love, though. Emma has generally speaking had so little agency in her own life that it seems to me like that would be another thing that seems to make her choice preordained, or points her toward a certain fate.

 

This is why I was so happy that they didn't go the True Love's Kiss route in the finale. I liked that Emma just decided to take a chance on a guy and open herself up to the idea of a relationship with Hook. In a lot of ways, I think the idea of her having a romantic True Love would freak Emma the hell out. As odd as it may sound, I think it would give Emma something else to worry about. A normal developing relationship with a storybook character would be stressful enough for her, but what happens if she screws up the True Love relationship? I also like the idea of these two people discovering more about each other and falling in love that way rather than it being pre-ordained and leaving me confused about what it is that they see in each other (I'm looking at you here, Outlaw Queen). If there's True Love involved immediately, there is no questioning, there's no need for proof, it just is. And it becomes a shortcut that skips all those fun moments that happen in a developing relationship. 

 

I don't even like the notion that Emma should somehow "prove" her love with some grand gesture to save Hook. I'd be so much happier if they continued with a slow route with those two getting to know each other better that eventually leads to Emma honestly and sincerely telling Hook that she loves him. No magical nonsense or curse breaking needed. Just two people who found each other and fell in love. That is a true love story.

Edited July 18, 2014 by KAOS Agent

[RadioGirl27]

I can't quote with my phone but I agree with you KAOS Agent abuot Hook and Emma. But this is a show about fairytales, so we probably wouldn't get a normal development to the relationship.

[YaddaYadda]

I don't even like the notion that Emma should somehow "prove" her love with some grand gesture to save Hook. I'd be so much happier if they continued with a slow route with those two getting to know each other better that eventually leads to Emma honestly and sincerely telling Hook that she loves him. No magical nonsense or curse breaking needed. Just two people who found each other and fell in love. That is a true love story.

 

I don't care for that either.  I don't think "true" love needs some grand gesture.  Even Hook giving up his ship, yeah, a lot of people took it as him proving that he loved her, but they voiced the reasons he did what he did.  Yes, he loves her, but going back and finding her was the right thing to do and he went back to save her and he stuck by her side through thick and thin and he spoke to Henry about Neal, he did that as much for his sake as he did it for Henry's, Emma's and even Neal's. 

 

I actually find the whole romance to be a bit unconventional by fairytale standards which is just fine by me.  Emma doesn't even need to voice how she feels about Hook directly to him, she could acknowledge it to herself first.  What I would hate is to see people pushing her to tell him.  I'm looking at you Henry.

Edited July 18, 2014 by YaddaYadda

[Shanna Marie]

I don't even like the notion that Emma should somehow "prove" her love with some grand gesture to save Hook. I'd be so much happier if they continued with a slow route with those two getting to know each other better that eventually leads to Emma honestly and sincerely telling Hook that she loves him. No magical nonsense or curse breaking needed. Just two people who found each other and fell in love. That is a true love story.

I definitely prefer that to "Hey, fairy dust! We're meant for each other" or "Well, the curse broke, so I guess we really do love each other." While bringing in the Frozen world with the Act of True Love concept could open the door to something deeper and more meaningful than the True Love's Kiss that's become this world's version of "try turning it off and then back on again," the way this world tends to go makes figuring out what an "act of true love" would really be difficult, since most of the good guys do big things for random people all the time.

 

Take Emma losing her magic to save Hook from drowning. That may mean she had feelings for him, but would she have let anybody just die so she could keep her magic? The only characters who might not have done what she did in that situation would be Regina, unless it was Henry dying or unless Henry was there and nagging her (she'd have cried as though she was helpless while watching the person drown, then would have blamed Zelena for the death), and Rumple (though he'd probably have come up with a loophole to allow himself to save his magic and save the other person, depending on the person), since they really don't want to let go of their magic. David was willing to turn himself over to the giant to save the town and was willing to fight the witch imprisoning Rapunzel when she was a total stranger. Hook giving up the Jolly Roger to be able to get to Emma and restore her to her family comes across as an act of great love, but even he feels like he was in the wrong for not doing the same thing for Ariel, a total stranger who'd attacked him, so she could save Eric, another total stranger. So, how can it be an act of great love if it's something he should have done even for a stranger? Acts of True Love are standard operating procedure for the good guys in this universe. How would you differentiate an act that truly comes out of love for a specific other person?

 

That's where they could really do something interesting with that gradual development of love if they wanted to use Frozen to play with the original Snow Queen story and do that "ice in the heart" thing -- if, say, Hook were affected and it led to him being somewhat aloof and distant, not a jerk, just not particularly warm and loving. A real show of love on Emma's part would be if, instead of looking at how it affected her ("But why doesn't he love meeeee?") like some people we could mention, she cared enough to think about what might be going on with him. Is he homesick? Feeling awfully alone in the world? Feeling out of place in this world? Having conscience issues after all the things he's done? Scared and putting his own walls up? Or maybe under a curse? Then it might be her not giving up on him, standing by him, and doing what it takes to help him that could break the curse, so the magic is just metaphor or symbol for the kind of thing that really happens in a relationship, which is fitting for a relationship between people who straddle that real world/fairy tale world line. If she didn't really love him, then she might not have been patient enough with him to be able to break the curse and would have given up on him too soon.

[KAOS Agent]

Didn't we go through the whole Hook pulls away thing when he had the cursed lips? Emo!Hook was thankfully limited, but during that time Emma did notice and express concern about Hook's lack of humor, his drinking, his withdrawal from the family dinner and then tried to playfully use her magic to cheer him up and tried to seriously discuss it with him. I'd actually rather the writers stay away from their contrived romantic angst because they are terrible at it, but I'm pretty sure the angst meter is going through the roof with Robin/Marian/Regina. 

 

It's more likely that Regina's tears of woe will be turned up to 11 and she'll get a frozen heart but everyone will think her actions are the result of her extreme sorrow over the loss of her boyfriend of four days, I mean, soul mate. All except Marian who will see through it all, decide that Regina is the bestest thing ever who totally deserves Robin and she will give an impassioned speech to Robin about how he belongs with Regina and she wants him to follow his heart. Robin will give a kiss of True Love and Regina will again get everything she wants. Then Lady Kluck will show up to yell, "Love conquers all!"

Edited July 18, 2014 by KAOS Agent

[RadioGirl27]

I hope all the romantic angst is limited to the "triangle of Hood" and they leave Emma and Hook alone to enjoy a bit of happiness.

[Mari]

It's more likely that Regina's tears of woe will be turned up to 11 and she'll get a frozen heart but everyone will think her actions are the result of her extreme sorrow over the loss of her boyfriend of four days, I mean, soul mate. All except Marian who will see through it all, decide that Regina is the bestest thing ever who totally deserves Robin and she will give an impassioned speech to Robin about how he belongs with Regina and she wants him to follow his heart. Robin will give a kiss of True Love and Regina will again get everything she wants. Then Lady Kluck will show up to yell, "Love conquers all!"

But would that impact her actions?  Because if I recall correctly, Regina feels from/with her soul.  She was generally nicer and capable of so very much without her heart.

 

And if that Marian speech happens, I might have to stab something repeatedly.  Yes, it will probably just be some sort of vegetable or melon, but I will stab it.  (Huh.  If  I pick a melon or squash, I can gut it as well.)

[Camera One]

Regina's heart is so resilient, she should be back to well-adjusted by no time. Oh wait, we've never actually seen her well-adjusted, ever.

[ShadowFacts]

 

And if that Marian speech happens, I might have to stab something repeatedly.  Yes, it will probably just be some sort of vegetable or melon, but I will stab it.  (Huh.  If  I pick a melon or squash, I can gut it as well.)

 

Or to avoid vegetable violence,  you could flip a table.  Someone on one of these threads (can't find it) suggested they would do that a while back, if Regina did one thing or another.  Just flip a table.

[Mari]

Or to avoid vegetable violence,  you could flip a table.  Someone on one of these threads (can't find it) suggested they would do that a while back, if Regina did one thing or another.  Just flip a table.

I suppose I could, but my rage output tends to be food-related.  I'm a stress baker.  The teenagers in my life who've realized that, try to take advantage as much as possible.

 

Flipping the table might make me laugh, though, and my table's old and rickety enough it might mean I'm  actually required to replace it.  :)

[kitticup]

My speculation is that

the Elizabeth Mitchell person is the black fairy/ Snow Queen and Malificent’s sister or mother.  Like her sister, she cursed a princess in this case Elsa.  She wants revenge against Elsa’s family and Regina for enslaving her sister and basically treating her sister like an animal.

 

Elsa was “urned” by Rumple perhaps as a favor to the Black Fairy Snow Queen.  Rumple doesn’t want Belle to know that he is responsible for destroying Elsa’s happiness, so he keeps quiet about what he knows and his suspicion that Black Fairy is behind everything.  Maybe the Black Fairy knows the truth about the dagger and blackmails Rumple.

 

Since fairy’s have a long life, I think it would be ok for Hook to have a backstory with  Elsa.  I would like Elsa to have know Killian as a boy or teen to give us more on Hook’s background.

 

I think it would be nice for Emma and  Elsa to bound over powers they don’t control.  I want Snow and Emma to bond over Snowflake.  Snow and Emma both realizing how much they missed because they were not able to raise with their  own children. They come to truly acknowledge that nothing can change what they missed, but they can forge a new type of relationship.  Perhaps Emma can go to her mother/friend and get advice on having a true love relationship.  This is definitely one area Snow would have more experience than Emma.

 

I don’t want Emma or Snow to feel like they owe Regina anything.  I want them to both realize that they lost their first born to Regina — meaning had it not been for Regina that Snow would have raised Emma and Emma would have had the resources to keep her son.  It would be awesome if Snow becomes Marion's good friend and takes her side.  Marion was willing to die to save Snow.

 

I would like to see Hook bond with Henry over drawings that Bae drew while on the Jolly Roger.  I could see this being a way to also explore Rumple and Hook’s relationship as Rumple would want to know more about Bae.   I hope Hook's satchel is like his flask:  his flask never runs out of rum and his satchel never runs out of space, so he can keep his momentos.  Anyway, Rumple could overhear Hook showing Henry Bae's drawings at Granny's.  Rumple could snark at the pirate pictures but fall silent when it is a picture of pre-dark Rumple at his spindle in their hovel.  Carlyle could play a very strong and powerful scene.  I can see Hook sharing not because he feels Rumple deserves to know but out of respect for Bae.

Edited July 19, 2014 by kitticup

[KingOfHearts]

Really hoping we get an explanation for Elsa's ice powers. In the movie, there never was a reason given as to why Elsa was born with them. Either 

Elizabeth Mitchell

or Rumple might be responsible for it. It's pretty new for the show because unlike other magical beings, Elsa's only magical power is ice.

[Sabs]

Totally random thought I had...

What if Marian was lying about helping Snow?  Why did her family think she was already dead?  Would Snow recognize Marian in the here and now?  If what she told Emma was true, Snow White should recognize her, right?  What if she doesn't and Emma thinks there is something fishy and no one believes her (like the whole Tamara debacle).

[Camera One]

It's pretty new for the show because unlike other magical beings, Elsa's only magical power is ice.

That is a good thing. I was so sick of the "I can do any type of magic perfectly" villains like Regina, Rumple, Cora, Pan and Zelena. While Emma's magic is unpredictable, and Blue's is very limited. But then again, since Elsa wasn't exactly evil in the "Frozen" movie, maybe that's why she has limited powers too. Since the *real* baddies are all-powerful.

Edited July 19, 2014 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

 

What if Marian was lying about helping Snow?

 

I'm still in the "Marian-is-Zelena" conspiracy theory camp. Bottom line: something's off about Marian. Hopefully some fairybacks in S4 can clear up why her and Robin's circumstances are the way they are.

 

Side note: I think it's funny they used an actress who was in only one scene and didn't even have a line to be a focal point for a major plot later on.

Edited July 19, 2014 by KingOfHearts