Speculation WITHOUT Spoilers: Lalalalala! I can't hear you!

[KingOfHearts]

It's weird how Lancelot and Guinevere don't even seem relevant any more. Whenever Guinevere gets de-sanded, it'll be like, "Oh, yeah... forgot about that." Lancelot's return seems incredibly pointless now. Sewing seeds of doubt against Arthur seemed to be his only function. The more I look at 5A, the less it actually has to do with Camelot and more with Excalibur + Dark Ones. We got a lot of story revolving around Camelot in the earlier episodes, but it didn't really go anywhere.

 

Arthur is all that's left from it, really. All the other Camelot characters (besides Merlin) either died or got sidelined. Which is strange, seeing how the focus was so heavy.

Edited November 17, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Guinevere turned out to be pretty much a non-character.  Her rejecting Arthur will probably be part of his "punishment".  I can see them throwing in a "happy ending" for Guinevere and Lancelot.  

[YaddaYadda]

She's a non character, but her reaction to what David said about Arthur lying to them was pretty telling. She took out her hand out of his real quick.

 

Also, about the dagger, and the sword...the sword as a whole doesn't control anyone. So you essentially have a possibly vengeful Hook running around town with nothing to control him if he goes too far.

 

Merlin's warning to Emma about leaving the sword alone in 5x01, and then in 5x06, had nothing to do with Emma's actions per se, because she was never going to destroy the light.

 

The warning had everything to do with Hook, and his actions. 

 

If she leaves the sword in the stone, alone, like Merlin told her, Hook would basically be fine, and maybe not pulling off some shenanigans.

 

At least that's the way I see it.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Emma has the spark...do you think she could melt down the full sword and remake Grail?. That would get rid of the damn sword.

She should probably throw it back from whence it was forged in the fires of Mordor.

[Rumsy4]

She should probably throw it back from whence it was forged in the fires of Mordor.

We hates the Charmingses forever!!!

Edited November 18, 2015 by Rumsy4

[KingOfHearts]

 

We hates the Charmingses forever!!!

So Rumple is Gollum, Emma is Frodo, Hook is Sam, Merlin is Gandalf, Nimue is Galadriel, Robin is Legolas, Grumpy is Gimli and Regina is... I don't know? (With these writers, she would probably be Aragorn.)

Edited November 18, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[InsertWordHere]

Charming: You have my sword

Snow: And you have my bow

Happy: And my Ax. No, I mean you really have it and it has my name on it. Can I have it back now?

[regularlyleaded]

Dark Swan's plan is to get rid of the darkness, so why not use Merlin's plan instead of putting the darkness in Zelena? In Camelot, Merlin was going to have Emma reforge the sword to get rid of the darkness in her, so why change the plan now to tether the darkness to Zelena and then kill the darkness by killing her with Excalibur? Does Hook being a second Dark One really change things all that much? I don't see how because Merlin was essentially Dark One #2 in Camelot for a short time and they were still going through with the plan of killing the darkness by reforging Excalibur. So, what am I missing? Does Dark Swan not know how Merlin was going to get the darkness out of her using reforged Excalibur in Camelot, so without his knowledge she's just winging it now?

Why was Emma adamant that the darkness needed to be tethered to a vessel to kill it? If it's true that the darkness needs a vessel to be killed, what vessel was Merlin planning to use to kill the darkness in Emma. Was he just going to take the darkness in Emma unto himself or....oh jeez. Could it be that Merlin was withholding a piece of information that yes, he could remove the darkness from Emma but also that she would die? If that's the case that seems like a pretty big piece of information for Merlin to hold onto. Was he afraid that if he told Emma and Co. that getting the darkness out of Emma meant she would have to die that they wouldn't go through with his plan?

Also, why can't this show ever give us a straight answer?!? Why can't they write things that make sense? Why, why, why, whyyyyyy must it always be a vexatious, convoluted, impenetrable labyrinth of questions without answers that make M.C. Escher's work look down right banal?!!

Edited November 18, 2015 by regularlyleaded

[kili]

Could it be that Merlin was withholding a piece of information that yes, he could remove the darkness from Emma but also that would die? If that's the case that seems like a pretty big piece of information for Merlin to hold onto. Was he afraid that if he told Emma and Co. that getting the darkness out of Emma meant she would have to die that they wouldn't go through with his plan?

 

I think that is exactly what his plan was. Merlin has consistently withheld the truth until it's too late to change the plan. When Hook demanded some details, he just changed the subject.

[YaddaYadda]

Why was Emma adamant that the darkness needed to be tethered to a vessel to kill it? If it's true that the darkness needs a vessel to be killed, what vessel was Merlin planning to use to kill the darkness in Emma

 

This is the way I'm able to piece this...

 

In Camelot, Emma is the vessel for the darkness, so she's the one Merlin is planning to cut with Excalibur to destroy the darkness. And because Emma is immortal as the Dark One, then all the sword does is take away her immortality, plus the darkness.

 

Zelena is not immortal, so her being the vessel everything gets transferred into, and then being cut with the sword will just kill her.

 

Merlin was planning on taking away his own immortality, and magic with the sword, and Nimue broke the sword so that he wouldn't cut her immortality or take away her magic.

 

My big issue is what would've happened to EMma's light magic? Would she have been unaffected because she's born with her magic, and it's part of her?

[regularlyleaded]

In Camelot, Emma is the vessel for the darkness, so she's the one Merlin is planning to cut with Excalibur to destroy the darkness. And because Emma is immortal as the Dark One, then all the sword does is take away her immortality, plus the darkness.

Zelena is not immortal, so her being the vessel everything gets transferred into, and then being cut with the sword will just kill her.

Interesting.

 

As I understand it (and I could easily be wrong), the way transferring the darkness into people works is by tethering them to the darkness and hence making them Dark Ones and hence immortal. So Emma's plan of moving the darkness into Zelena would've been done by using Excalibur to take the darkness out of Hook and Emma (just like Emma did to Merlin) and then tethering it to her and effectively making Zelena a new Dark One (like Emma did to Hook) whom Emma would then kill with Excalibur and hence killing the darkness permanently.

 

But if your theory is correct, if the darkness can be moved without tethering, then why does tethering automatically confer darkness if the darkness can be moved independent of the tethering....this makes my head hurt.

Edited November 18, 2015 by regularlyleaded

[InsertWordHere]

I think that's what the potion was for. Zelena thought it was to remove her magic but it was supposed to remove Emma and Hook's magic.

[YaddaYadda]

I think that's what the potion was for. Zelena thought it was to remove her magic but it was supposed to remove Emma and Hook's magic.

 

Basically.

 

Emma brought along with her all of Merlin's stuff. So I'm sure our mad scientist has the exact spell that's required for Emma to do just that. And I think Emma was hoping to do all of that without Hook ever finding out what happened in Camelot.

[Rumsy4]

Why was Emma adamant that the darkness needed to be tethered to a vessel to kill it? If it's true that the darkness needs a vessel to be killed, what vessel was Merlin planning to use to kill the darkness in Emma. Was he just going to take the darkness in Emma unto himself or....oh jeez. Could it be that Merlin was withholding a piece of information that yes, he could remove the darkness from Emma but also that she would die? If that's the case that seems like a pretty big piece of information for Merlin to hold onto. Was he afraid that if he told Emma and Co. that getting the darkness out of Emma meant she would have to die that they wouldn't go through with his plan?

 

Merlin told Emma that if she used Dark Magic to tether Hook to Excalibur, it would be her final step into Darkness, and she would have to pay the steepest price. So basically what I got is this. Emma had not given into the Darkness up until that point. So, reforged Excalibur would be able to cut away the Darkness and immortality without killing Emma. But by giving in to Darkness her soul has become tainted. Now, it is only possible to get rid of the Darkness by paying the steepest price = death. 

 

That's why Emma wants to siphon off the Darkness into Zelena, and let Zelena's life be the ultimate price.

 

There are some issues with this: 

1. I still don't get why saving Hook's life turned Emma Dark (and created a second Dark One).

2. Wouldn't killing Zelena corrupt Emma's soul again? She wouldn't become the Dark One again, but she would probably end up with a Dark Spot to rival Snow's.

3. Would Emma untethered from the Darkness be able to go through with the plan to kill Zelena after making her the DO?

Also, why can't this show ever give us a straight answer?!? Why can't they write things that make sense? Why, why, why, whyyyyyy must it always be a vexatious, convoluted, impenetrable labyrinth of questions without answers that make M.C. Escher's work look down right banal?!!

 

Because we put more thought and effort into it than the writers have ever done. lol

[KingOfHearts]

Did Emma fake the "newborn cries" spell? If so, I would think Rumple would figure that out pretty quick. He used the same trick in 4x08 - faking a "vanquishing light magic" spell. How does Emma plan to kill Zelena if she becomes the Dark One?

 

Also... how does Excalibur bestow eternal life? I'm confused about that mechanic as well. I'm still not clear on how Emma made Hook the Dark One.

Edited November 18, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[regularlyleaded]

I think that's what the potion was for. Zelena thought it was to remove her magic but it was supposed to remove Emma and Hook's magic.

 

Basically.

 

Emma brought along with her all of Merlin's stuff. So I'm sure our mad scientist has the exact spell that's required for Emma to do just that. And I think Emma was hoping to do all of that without Hook ever finding out what happened in Camelot.

I see. Yes, that's probably it. Thank you, guys :)

…. though, doesn't that strike anyone else as strange that a potion can get rid of someone's Dark One darkness?

The Dark One darkness isn't like Emma's light magic, or any other dark magic users who are merely people with magical skill and abilities. The Dark One darkness, as presented in the show, is a sentient entity, a bundle of dark souls that can exert control over those it's been bound too. If anything it's more like a demonic possession rather than run of the mill evil magic. So it's weird that a mere potion could get rid of it. Though, I guess if I think of the potion and the darkness like holy water and demons, that kind of works. The potion wouldn't vanquish the dark souls, a.k.a. the darkness, but breaks the magical tethers that bind it to a certain person/vessel. And then it's moved into another vessel somehow??? Sure, why not. Let's go with that.

Also, it seems to me that by binding original Dark One Nimue's soul to the dagger, Merlin essentially created a dark entity that was bound to the mortal world. Prior to binding Nimue to the dagger, Nimue couldn't be controlled but at the same time her evil couldn't be passed on to anyone else (I assume). Had Dark One Nimue been killed prior to being bound to the dagger, I assume that the darkness would've ended with her because her dark soul hadn't been bound to a person or vessel, and therefore it was not affixed in the mortal world, as it were. But Merlin bound her soul and darkness to that dagger creating a self-perpetuating evil in the world.

Maybe Merlin's plan in Camelot was to take Emma's darkness out of her and unto himself, and then have Emma kill him with reforged Excalibur and finally end the centuries worth of destruction that he in part caused by tethering evil souls to in the mortal world? Will we ever find out the details of Merlin's plan? Probably not.

[InsertWordHere]

Yeah, the more they expand on their Dark One mythology, the less it makes sense. Last season, the Apprentice was able to take the darkness out of Rumple's heart, but it got free. Couldn't Emma have done the same thing to Hook, only forced the darkness into Zelena instead of letting it go down Main Street?

 

I am beginning to question whether or not Emma was going to give up her darkness after she fixed Hook's problem. 

[KAOS Agent]

 

The potion wouldn't vanquish the dark souls, a.k.a. the darkness, but breaks the magical tethers that bind it to a certain person/vessel. And then it's moved into another vessel somehow???

 

It could work if you consider that the souls are now untethered, but in search of a host for themselves. It would fit with Merlin saying that the Darkness would multiply. If all of the souls of the previous Dark Ones are contained by the dagger, then with their release, you'd have numerous souls looking for a place to land. Storybrooke then becomes filled with possessed residents. And Once becomes the Walking Dead Fairytale Style. 

[babyPhat279]

I wish the whole thing was just simpler. Like, the holy grail/dagger gives you crazy unlimited magic, more than someone like Emma would normally have, but it's not light or dark, and just because of human weakness most of the people who have gotten access to it (except Merlin) took it to a dark place. Then we wouldn't be worrying about things like, "why is X action considered dark magic, instead of light magic?" or "why if the magic is transferred from Merlin is it now dark magic?"

[KingOfHearts]

So I just watched 5B. There was a four-year time jump.

 

Henry has gone off to college and left the show, making Skype call cameos once in a while. Regina gained self-awareness when she ran into a family whose house got torched by the Evil Queen. She also married Robin but divorced him after his heart told him to have an affair with Maleficent under the clocktower in the glass coffin. Hansel, Gretel and their dad have started Storybrooke Child Protection Services and transferred Roland to a proper home.

 

Rumple got lobotomized by the Hope Commission and started a Villains Anonymous club with Regina. Zelena, Jafar, Scar and Lady Tremaine are regular attendees. Rumple returned Geppetto's parents back to normal and Archie took them out for dinner. He and Belle broke up amicably, with Belle getting her own life and taking online courses from Oxford in linguistics. Rumple also restored Gaston, but Belle has yet to date him despite her father's urging. 

 

Tiny's orchards have began to sprawl. Coupling the beans with the portal to Arendelle, he and the dwarves have a nice taxi business going. Emma has started a justice system for magical crimes committed post-5A with Charming and Hook as her deputies. They were able to duplicate the anti-magic cuff, so now criminals who interrupt sheriffs' dates will be staying in the asylum safely. No one is executed - just thrown out of town. Speaking of which, Rumple made more of his anti-transformation powder and saved Dopey. Thanks to a collaboration between him, Blue and Belle, a spell was found to remove the tree effect from the town line.

 

Hook and Emma had a quiet wedding on the Jolly Roger a couple years ago and had their honeymoon in Arendelle. Ever since, they've lived peacefully in their dream house. No babies yet, but they still go for coffee quite a bit. After 5A, they both underwent therapy from Archie for several months. Their magical PTSD from being Dark Ones has come to almost a full recovery. They still can't watch Sword in the Stone, though.

 

Snow had a second child named Cora. Neal is four years old now. Philip and Aurora adopted Robin's daughter, Marian. 

Edited November 20, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

Love it!! :-)

[Camera One]

Also, the Hollywood Reporter created some article about Dark Hook that included this gem: "Even though there have been no romantic vibes between them, Hook’s darkness could be attracted to Zelena’s evil side, making for a love triangle that will surely end in bloodshed." Um...no.

 

We only have two episodes left in this arc, so if people want to see Dark Hook for longer, I suppose this could be a way to go for 5B.  Zelena and Dark Hook could be the new dark power couple, and this time, Emma is back to and adjusting to her old self, and trying to get through to Hook, a monster she created.  With Zelena on the war path, Emma and Regina would need to band together like they never have before to protect the child they have both grown to love, Baby Marian.  Meanwhile, fan favorite Merida decides to stay in Storybrooke but is despondent over her inability to find employment.  Can Belle, Red and Mulan strike gold a second time in lifting Merida's spirit and self-confidence?  Tune in March 2016 as Once Upon a Time returns.

Edited November 21, 2015 by Camera One

[InsertWordHere]

If Zelena's teaming up with anybody, it's going to be Arthur, now that she's seen Hook's memories of their evil times together. Do you guys think Zelena rewound all the Dreamcatcher Captain Swan kisses like the shipper she is?

 

I was thinking about who might have cast the curse, because I don't see why Emma would care about treeing people to keep them in Storybrooke, especially because it seems like taking Hook out of Storybrooke would be a good thing, when I remembered something Hook said when speculating over who put up the ice wall and why. He said maybe the culprit did it to "kill us all one by one. It's what I'd do."

[HoodlumSheep]

Still wondering who put the sword back into the stone. Because Emma needed it reforge excalibur, I doubt she did it. If Hook went all

Evil in Camelot, I'm not quite sure if he'd do it-unless this was part of some great ulterior plan.

Arthur wouldn't do it, Zelena-no. Belle and Robin are too irrelevant. Merida? Have no idea.

The best bets are probably Merlin, Regina (because of course it'd probably be her), Snow (lol), charming (not too likely), or Henry (I could see it be him (better than Regina in my opinion).

Edited November 21, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[YaddaYadda]

You need magic to put the sword in the stone, just like the first time Merlin placed it there. So I think that eliminates any non magical people.

 

I really have to wonder if someone didn't try to control him. So far, all of Emma's actions, and dialogue had to do with what happened to him in Camelot, so maybe the dialogue about holding on to something with your name on it has to do more with him than it does her. 

 

It's like Rumple giggling at Emma in 5x03, and telling her how she crushed Hook's heart even more firmly.

[HoodlumSheep]

You need magic to put the sword in the stone, just like the first time Merlin placed it there. So I think that eliminates any non magical people.

I really have to wonder if someone didn't try to control him. So far, all of Emma's actions, and dialogue had to do with what happened to him in Camelot, so maybe the dialogue about holding on to something with your name on it has to do more with him than it does her.

It's like Rumple giggling at Emma in 5x03, and telling her how she crushed Hook's heart even more firmly.

I forgot the magic part. Zelena totally did it. She wanted to give her OTP some angst.

[Camera One]

They still need to have Regina, Snowing, etc. "betray" Emma so they probably put the sword back into the stone, which totally delayed Emma's plans to kill Zelena.

[Mari]

I don't think he did, but Hook could have put his half of the sword into the stone in order to keep someone from using it to control him--you seem to have to meet unknown criteria to pull it out, and that would keep it safe.

 

Personally, I think Regina, Snowing, and Merlin did it, because they thought Emma was going to "cut out the light."

 

(Yes.  That's ridiculous enough I have to put it into quotes.  Blech.)

[Camera One]

They want to create drama for the big finale, so that's why I think it will most likely be Snowing, so Emma could yell at them and they can cry, and A&E&J will say they gave us some much needed family dynamics.  

[YaddaYadda]

Personally, I think Regina, Snowing, and Merlin did it, because they thought Emma was going to "cut out the light."

 

I'd agree, except that back in Camelot these guys had their memories and knew what was going on. Them believing this in Storybrooke is one thing. Them believing it in Camelot is another one.

 

Merlin needs to go take a nap. If that guy isn't working his own agenda, then I'm not even sure what he's doing.

Edited November 21, 2015 by YaddaYadda

[Camera One]

Them believing it in Camelot is another one.

 

Then they would be trying to stop Emma from keeping Hook alive. Which would have been very anger-inducing for Dark Emma.

[HoodlumSheep]

I don't think he did, but Hook could have put his half of the sword into the stone in order to keep someone from using it to control him--you seem to have to meet unknown criteria to pull it out, and that would keep it safe.

Personally, I think Regina, Snowing, and Merlin did it, because they thought Emma was going to "cut out the light."

(Yes. That's ridiculous enough I have to put it into quotes. Blech.)

At the end of all this (the series), we need to have a poll for the most annoying phrase/word.

"Cut out the light"

"Cleave"

"When the stars align"

"Monster"

I'm sure there's 12 dozen more I'm forgetting.

[KingOfHearts]

"Happy Ending"
"Regina"
"True Love"

"All magic comes with a price!"
"There's good in his/her heart!"
"Our memories... they're gone!"

"Another curse?"
"Savior"
"There is a prophecy..."
"Rip out their heart."
"I'm afraid I can't help you."

"There's a problem with crossing the town line.."

"Happiness"

[InsertWordHere]

I am getting pretty sick of "Miss Swan" (which I used to like!) from both Rumple and Regina. 

[Camera One]

Every time they say Miss Swan, I think of the MadTV skits and it really breaks the mood.

Edited November 22, 2015 by Camera One

[OnceUponAJen]

"It's complicated."

[Rumsy4]

I'll take Regina calling Emma "Miss Swan" over just "Swan". It was such a CS-thing, that I hated it when Regina called Emma "Swan" in 4B. I'm glad it's back to Emma/Miss Swan. haha 

[KingOfHearts]

 

It was such a CS-thing, that I hated it when Regina called Emma "Swan" in 4B. I'm glad it's back to Emma/Miss Swan. haha

Taking this to Relationships.

 

It was such a CS-thing, that I hated it when Regina called Emma "Swan" in 4B. I'm glad it's back to Emma/Miss Swan. haha

Taking this to Relationships.

[Camera One]

ARTHUR: Arrrrrr... you ruined my life.  I am supposed to be the Once and Future King!

MERLIN: No, you're not.  HE is.  

HENRY: Me?

MERLIN: Yes.  All I knew was that the person would have the "rrrrr" sound in their name.  

CHARMING: My name does too.

ROBIN: So does mine.

REGINA: And me.

GRANNY: Me too.

GRUMPY: And me.

SNOW: That's why I wanted to be called Marrrrrrrrrrry Marrrrrrrrrgaret.

Edited November 22, 2015 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

SNOW: That's why I wanted to be called Marrrrrrrrrrry Marrrrrrrrrgaret.

 

Finally an explanation that makes sense! ;-)

[KingOfHearts]

 

SNOW: That's why I wanted to be called Marrrrrrrrrrry Marrrrrrrrrgaret.

Can't blame her. People with "R's" tend to get better writing treatment on this show. Closer to the first letter the better.

Edited November 22, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[daxx]

Can't blame her. People with "R's" tend to get better writing treatment on this show. Closer to the first letter the better.

So you are saying Killian Jones (Captain Hook) not an R in sight is screwed. lol

[Shanna Marie]

So you are saying Killian Jones (Captain Hook) not an R in sight is screwed.

And it explains a lot about Emma Swan's role.

[InsertWordHere]

Haha there's always been the fan speculation that her middle name is Ruth, after Charming's mother. 

[Curio]

Any guesses on whether or not that boiling magic stew Arthur cooked up will make a comeback in the last two episodes? Is someone going to die a very painful death? Will that person be Arthur because karma will come back to bite him in the ass for cooking up something so dangerous and deadly to begin with? Or will it be a forgotten plot point altogether like Lancelot...

[Camera One]

Tough one.  Unfortunately, Arthur is still alive in Storybrooke so he couldn't have met his demise that way.  After waving The Bear King in our face, I'm pretty sure A&E&J can be reassured that most of us have already forgotten about that magic stew.  They have enough to deal with in the last 2 episodes, so I'll go with Pointless Plot Point Never Revisited Again for a thousand, Alex.

Edited November 23, 2015 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

Could be someone plans to put the broken sword in the magic acid which would kill Hook or something, so someone grabs the sword and puts it back in the stone where the bad guys can't get it.

[PixiePaws1]

Could be someone plans to put the broken sword in the magic acid which would kill Hook or something, so someone grabs the sword and puts it back in the stone where the bad guys can't get it.

oohh...that's clever!

[Camera One]

Can we assume Emma cast the latest Curse since she's the only one with her memories?  Or would that be too obvious so A&E will twist the dagger, so to speak?  I don't want this to happen, but could Emma have crushed Hook's heart to cast the Curse, knowing that he would still remain alive as the Dark One, Second edition?  The other alternative that others have mentioned already would be Merlin's heart, if Emma channeled Nimue for the ceremony.  

[KAOS Agent]

They aren't treading new territory with the who cast the curse twist. Think 3B. Snow cast the curse, but Zelena stole everyone's memories. It doesn't necessarily follow that Emma cast the curse and I have never believed that she did. In fact, she skirted around ever saying that she did. Why would she need to cast the curse anyway? But hey, who's all evil now with his greatest enemy in a coma in a different realm? Maybe Emma is the one missing a heart. Or maybe Regina cast the curse to escape the Dark Ones and Robin is set to drop dead at any minute.

Edited November 29, 2015 by KAOS Agent