Speculation WITHOUT Spoilers: Lalalalala! I can't hear you!

[YaddaYadda]

I guess that's mutual.  Emma apparently couldn't care less he was working for his homicidal grandaddy, which I refuse to believe.  I'm really curious the discrepancy between quality Henry/Emma time vs. Henry/Regina time in Season 4 as a whole.  It was obvious they were careful to keep it balanced in "Operation Mongoose" over the two parts, but it was very imbalanced the rest of the season, and apparently that's not a problem to them?

I agree with you, but at the same time, since Henry came back from NYC, we have seen him in one or two scenes where he sort of bonded with Regina.  There was the one where she took him out for ice cream and they talked about him and school and you know, normal stuff you should be discussing with your 12 year old and then the quick scene when he regained his memories and he thought it was cool that she was dating Robin.  

 

Otherwise, Henry has been keeping his nose in his book, trying to figure out where the Author was and that was basically the extent of the relationship.  I mean Henry might've lived with Regina, but there was zero going on between them.  When I look back on season 4, the last bonding experience Henry with one of his mothers was back in 4x02 when Emma nearly died from cold in the ice cave.

 

The rest was pretty much a wash.  

[retrograde]

Interesting poll this week. I think Snowing will probably pick up the dagger to start with, but it will likely change hands multiple times throughout the season, including Emma having it at some point, and also someone who wants to make Emma do bad things having it at another.

[ABitOFluff]

Interesting poll this week. I think Snowing will probably pick up the dagger to start with, but it will likely change hands multiple times throughout the season, including Emma having it at some point, and also someone who wants to make Emma do bad things having it at another.

That is a good poll! I doubt anyone will jump to pick it up, but I don't think Hook will take it, because he never wanted to control Emma, which goes back to "when I win your heart" and "whatever we become is up to her..."). He also sees her parents as heroes who always tried to protector her. I could see him convincing Snow to pick it up.

[YaddaYadda]

I've been thinking Hook because of the last two shots of the season which were him and the dagger falling to the ground.  I don't know that he'll want to keep it, but we might actually witness him hide it for real like a pirate hides his treasure and there was that whole line about the cursed blade in 4x15.  But that whole last 30 seconds of ILY, the camera panning to Emma looking at him, then him and her parents, then him again and  then the dagger (can't you tell?  I've watched this scene too many times for my own good).  Snowing is a good possibility as well.  Those 3 will really have to trust each other.

 

Hook along with Emma and Henry are the only ones who know what the Apprentice said about Merlin, so that sort of makes him the common denominator in all of this.

 

I know, I need to lower my expectations, but damn it, I really don't want to!

[OnceUponAJen]

I'm speculating that Hook would keep the dagger, but there's no knowing. I hope that this arc will bring Hook and the Charmings closer (you know, maybe we could get some actual fallout and character moments!). However, the dagger and its possession could introduce conflict and distrust between them as well.

[Souris]

Glad you like the poll. I sadly think they'll give it to Regina to protect in her vault, because she has magic and is so trust-worthy now and would never control somebody with their dagger or, say, their heart in order to blackmail their husband. And, of course, to make the SQ fans happy so they can write smutty fanfic about Regina using the dagger to make Emma do things.

[YaddaYadda]

And, of course, to make the SQ fans happy so they can write smutty fanfic about Regina using the dagger to make Emma do things.

 

Which I'm guessing is still in line with those rapey Mills women.

 

The whole heart thing, I'm really not sure that Regina took the heart without Belle's consent.  Yeah, there I go defending Regina again, but Belle forgetting all about what happened, she was ordered by Regina to forget all about it, so her not knowing she didn't have her heart and looking completely clueless makes sense.  I don't know why they would leave that ambiguous though.

[Shanna Marie]

The Dark One/Dagger thing makes a kind of sense, from the way the Apprentice described it -- it's essentially being contained in a person rather than getting to be free-form evil, and the dagger creates a kind of checks-and-balances situation if it's in the right hands, someone who's not going to use the power for evil or selfish purposes. Zoso was only a problem because the evil duke had the dagger and was using the Dark One as an enforcer. Rumple was a problem because he controlled the dagger himself and therefore had no checks or balances on his power, and then later because Zelena had the dagger and was using him as her enforcer.

 

It's a potentially interesting character arc for Emma, Ms. "The Only One Who Rescues Me is Me," very independent and maybe even a bit of a control freak, to knowingly take this on, with the dagger left behind for her loved ones (assuming she had any control over how that happened). The things she said before she did it made it sound somewhat like she was entrusting them with all of it. She'd want someone she trusted to have control of the dagger to keep her from doing anything she wouldn't normally do. I don't know who actually will take it, but I would think that if Emma could choose, she'd choose Hook, just because she knows he gets her, probably even better than her parents do, so him having the dagger would be the next best thing to being in control of herself. She'd know he wouldn't make her do anything he knew she wouldn't want to do, and his interpretation of what to do would be closest to her own. Her parents might be a bit too idealistic, either holding back from controlling her in a situation where she'd prefer to be controlled or maybe even being tempted to use her power for their idea of good, or else being too afraid to use it at all in a situation where it needs to be used. Hook is a lot more pragmatic, and his views on the right thing to do are probably going to be more closely aligned with Emma's, or else he'd have a better idea of what she would really want. However, I can imagine that Hook would hate the idea of being in charge of the dagger. He'd feel weird about having that control over her -- but then that probably makes him the ideal candidate. The best person for the job is probably someone who doesn't want it at all. You'd worry about someone who did want it.

[Camera One]

Belle will offer to give someone her giant purse, which fits the Dagger perfectly while not hurting your shoulders.  

[Souris]

Belle will offer to give someone her giant purse, which fits the Dagger perfectly while not hurting your shoulders.  

 

Clearly Hook can't take the dagger then -- it would NOT go with his outfit at all.

[kingshearte]

The whole heart thing, I'm really not sure that Regina took the heart without Belle's consent.  Yeah, there I go defending Regina again, but Belle forgetting all about what happened, she was ordered by Regina to forget all about it, so her not knowing she didn't have her heart and looking completely clueless makes sense.  I don't know why they would leave that ambiguous though.

The forgetting part is exactly why I can't quite get on board with the idea that there was consent. If Regina had Belle's permission to do it, why make her forget about it? 

[Rumsy4]

I think Hook will keep the Dagger. I also have a feeling that Lily will become the next Dark One. I know that means Emma will have to die, but I'm sure they'll find a way to work around it. I just don't see the point of this Lily character otherwise. 

[YaddaYadda]

I just don't see the point of this Lily character otherwise.

 

I think her role is to introduce her father and that's it.  That also means that she will be with them if the gang goes realm jumping to find Merlin.  

[Jul 68]

Several thoughts.

I just had a vision that Jane E. will convince A&E to hire Alyson Hannigan to play Morgana.

Maybe the Evil!Emma transformation will involve her hair returning to it's naturally dark color (I never much cared for her as a blonde).

Always remember that this is a Disney show and they will never permit an established iconic movie character (i.e. anyone in costume at the parks) to be killed. [i'm sure you are all fully aware of that, but I feel the need to say it for the neebies.]

Now.... What can we do to get TPTB to read this forum instead of Twitter to figure out how they lost their audience? ;)

Edited May 26, 2015 by Jul 68

[Amerilla]

The whole heart thing, I'm really not sure that Regina took the heart without Belle's consent.  Yeah, there I go defending Regina again, but Belle forgetting all about what happened, she was ordered by Regina to forget all about it, so her not knowing she didn't have her heart and looking completely clueless makes sense.  I don't know why they would leave that ambiguous though.

 

I watched those scenes, and I'm 99% sure Regina took Belle's heart without consent. We won't go into the logical character reasons that Belle's idea of "helping" would not extend to "literally putting my life in the hands of a woman who imprisoned me for 30 years to use for exactly a situation like this," because we know the writers don't care about logical character reasons. But if you look at the Regina/Belle shop scene, you'll notice that Regina "poofs" in when Belle's back is turned and she's clearly wearing an expression that says she's walking out with Belle's heart in her handbag, whether Belle wants that or not.

 

Why leave it ambiguous? Because it makes Regina look terrible. Can't have that, can we? Plus, you can't have Regina do shit like that in the same string of episodes where she's cheerleading to help keep Emma on Team Goody-Goody.

 

The Dark One/Dagger thing makes a kind of sense, from the way the Apprentice described it -- it's essentially being contained in a person rather than getting to be free-form evil, and the dagger creates a kind of checks-and-balances situation if it's in the right hands, someone who's not going to use the power for evil or selfish purposes.

 

That's what makes me think it dosen't matter who gets the dagger....it only matters who doesn't get it. That list is pretty short at the moment: not Zelena, or Rumpel (depending on how he is if/when he wakes up), or Lily, or Mal.

 

Aside from that, you could give it to Hook or the Charmings or Granny or Archie or Blue for all the difference it should make. 

[ParadoxLost]

That's what makes me think it dosen't matter who gets the dagger....it only matters who doesn't get it. That list is pretty short at the moment: not Zelena, or Rumpel (depending on how he is if/when he wakes up), or Lily, or Mal.

 

Aside from that, you could give it to Hook or the Charmings or Granny or Archie or Blue for all the difference it should make. 

 

 

This is how I think they'll get around Emma being cured by leaving town.  The dagger will be with someone safe and they won't have Emma leave town because its safe enough.  Regina is trusted now.  Zelena is locked up.  Rumpel is cationic.  Then someone will steal the dagger and opportunity to get out of town is missed.

[Mari]

The dagger will be with someone safe and they won't have Emma leave town because its safe enough . . . Then someone will steal the dagger and opportunity to get out of town is missed.

I don't expect what I'm throwing out there to happen, but I'm now really, really curious.

 

If someone did have the dagger, but Emma managed to leave town before they started ordering her around, would the dagger be able to retrieve her from outside the Storybrooke borders?

[ParadoxLost]

I don't expect what I'm throwing out there to happen, but I'm now really, really curious.

 

If someone did have the dagger, but Emma managed to leave town before they started ordering her around, would the dagger be able to retrieve her from outside the Storybrooke borders?

 

I would have said no.  But then the Author's story changed reality outside of Storybrooke so that certainty is shot to hell.

 

Although based on people returning to where they entered the book its possible Henry was in a parallel world and never left Storybrooke at all.  So he was in a book within a book or something and he never went to a fan convention in Land without Magic.

[YaddaYadda]

If someone did have the dagger, but Emma managed to leave town before they started ordering her around, would the dagger be able to retrieve her from outside the Storybrooke borders?

 

The way things ended, it seems Emma is not in the town anymore and I doubt they can use the dagger to summon her if she's outside of Storybrooke, in the LwM or a whole other realm.  It would be way too easy if they could do that.

[Jul 68]

I don't see why not. It is super-duper magical and gave magic to the Rumple who had none. I also think it would work in the LwM because they have firmly and repeatedly established that Emma's magic works there. Hey, maybe that's how State Farm agents get around.

Edited May 27, 2015 by Jul 68

[KAOS Agent]

You can't get back into town without the scroll though. Emma wouldn't be able to get into town once she'd left no matter how much they ordered her to with the dagger.

[YaddaYadda]

You can't get back into town without the scroll though. Emma wouldn't be able to get into town once she'd left no matter how much they ordered her to with the dagger.

Best thing that could ever happen to her!  She can find a pay phone, call her boyfriend and tell him to come join her and they can never go back to that stupid town together.

[kitticup]

I was thinking about Dark Emma. I think A&E might do a mash up of Morgana and the Black Swan. So I am hoping Emma's evil costume is black with black feathers on the shirt and collar.

[Jul 68]

Forgive me if I missed it, but I don't recall seeing any discussion here regarding any repercussions (albeit temporary, of course) of the black ooze/ultimate evil/The Source/Dark One enveloping Regina in the finale.

The bit of dialogue about how it was extinguishing the 'good' in Regina got me to wondering if we'll see some non-fairy back evil Regina return. I'm sure some of the 'good' in Regina was wisked away in the time it took Emma to finally eek out her ILY, kiss Killy goodbye, and say I know you'll all rescue me.

Edited May 27, 2015 by Jul 68

[Souris]

Forgive me if I missed it, but I don't recall seeing any discussion here regarding any repercussions (albeit temporary, of course) of the black ooze/ultimate evil/The Source/Dark One enveloping Regina in the finale.

The bit of dialogue about how it was extinguishing the 'good' in Regina got me to wondering if we'll see some non-fairy back evil Regina return. I'm sure some of the 'good' in Regina was wisked away in the time it took Emma to finally eek out her ILY, kiss Killy goodbye, and say I know you'll all rescue me.

 

I'm sure Regina just regenerated any of the good she lost. Because she's special that way.

[Mari]

Forgive me if I missed it, but I don't recall seeing any discussion here regarding any repercussions (albeit temporary, of course) of the black ooze/ultimate evil/The Source/Dark One enveloping Regina in the finale.

The bit of dialogue about how it was extinguishing the 'good' in Regina got me to wondering if we'll see some non-fairy back evil Regina return. I'm sure some of the 'good' in Regina was wisked away in the time it took Emma to finally eek out her ILY, kiss Killy goodbye, and say I know you'll all rescue me.

It's an interesting thought, and could make for a good reason for her to backslide, but, honestly, I hadn't thought about it because I don't expect it to ever be addressed in-show. 

 

They've been working overtime to revamp Regina's character into a hero, and they finally got a full-blown switch;  Emma's the Dark One, and likely a "villain", while Regina's a hero.  I have trouble seeing them mess with that, since it's what they've been aiming for.

 

I think the good-sucking will be completely ignored, since Emma contained the evil, and they're going to think that nothing happened to Regina.

Edited May 27, 2015 by Mari

[Camera One]

I wonder if Zelena's baby will end up absorbing the darkness.  Snow and Charming will be holding the "Not us!" sign in the background.

[KingOfHearts]

I wonder if Zelena's baby will end up absorbing the darkness. Snow and Charming will be holding the "Not us!" sign in the background.

What if it's born green? They'll probably name it Nottingham or Jonathan with this show's logic. Two of the most annoying characters fusing together into a new human being can't be good.

Edited May 27, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Serena]

A Robin and Zelena child can be nothing less than the Antichrist.

Edited May 27, 2015 by Serena

[Crimson Belle]

Impossible. Whatever else it/he may be, the Antochrist won't be boring, unless boring one to death is the superpower of that offspring of lameness. I ex0ect their spawn to grow up to be the adult in the Charlie Brown cartoons.

[RadioGirl27]

What if it's born green? They'll probably name it Nottingham or Jonathan with this show's logic. Two of the most annoying characters fusing together into a new human being can't be good.

Nah. Daniel if he is a boy and Marian or Cora if she is a girl.

[OnceUponAJen]

Hmm...what if the baby turns out to be bizarro Roland? That would be fine with me because more Roland can never be bad :)

Edited May 27, 2015 by OnceUponAJen

[YaddaYadda]

I'm not sure the baby will see the light of day.  

[FurryFury]

I can already imagine a "Dark Future" storyline in which Roland becomes a knight in shining armor who has to battle his younger sibling, who's an evil sorcerer/ess, with the support of Neal, meanwhile falling in love with Alexandra the Cinderella's daughter. Meanwhile, this sorcerer/ess teams up with the (yet unborn) spawn of Rumple and Belle.

Edited May 27, 2015 by FurryFury

[daxx]

I can already imagine a "Dark Future" storyline in which Roland becomes a knight in shining armor who has to battle his younger sibling, who's an evil sorcerer/ess, with the support of Neal, meanwhile falling in love with Alexandra the Cinderella's daughter. Meanwhile, this sorcerer/ess teams up with the (yet unborn) spawn of Rumple and Belle.

Write the thing someone. CS daughter/son battles beside them against the darkness and finds true love in the new realm, a reformed villian of course.

[ParadoxLost]

My memory is failing.  Did they prove Zelena was pregnant or just take her word on it?

[Dianthus]

daxx, on 27 May 2015 - 09:07 AM, said:daxx, on 27 May 2015 - 09:07 AM, said:

Write the thing someone. CS daughter/son battles beside them against the darkness and finds true love in the new realm, a reformed villian of course.

Ooh, I know what I'd name a CS daughter: Stella Rae Jones - cause her Daddy used to steer by the stars.

 

ETA: She has his coloring (I'm a sucker for that Black Irish look) and Emma's chin.

Edited May 28, 2015 by Dianthus

[KingOfHearts]

 

My memory is failing.  Did they prove Zelena was pregnant or just take her word on it?

It hasn't been said on the show that a pregnancy test was taken. However, Zelena is setup to have appointments with Dr. Whale for monitoring the baby. If she's lying, they're going find out very soon. I highly doubt it's a possibility she's just fibbing about it, though. If the story gets some enough backlash, I suppose A&E could pull a Greg and Tamara type damage control into the next season... but there's really nothing else for Zelena to do. (Besides monologuing.)

[Serena]

Well, when Regina came back from the AU, she said she had gone to check on Zelena and she was still pregnant. Since she wouldn't be showing, she must have done some kind of test to be sure.

Edited May 28, 2015 by Serena

[october]

Maybe they'll do something like when Charmed had Phoebe lose Cole's baby to the seer and rationalised it away saying it wasn't a baby but a swirling vortex of evil.

 

Another possibility is that they have Zelena redeemed by having her die in childbirth or die protecting the baby somehow. That'd fall in line with the show's strange grasp of morality and redemption. Then have Regina and Robin raise the baby as their own.

 

Ugh. The last thing this show needs is another baby (it doesn't even have a proper place for the ones they have already).

[FurryFury]

Could they maybe rewrite the reality just a tiny bit so Zelena's not pregnant? Please? Kinda like in Fringe with Altlivia's baby (only I loved Altlivia, unlike Zelena). I mean, jeez, this story's just the worst. There's already one baby nobody cares about on the show.

[YaddaYadda]

I think the writers said there's probably going to be a time jump next season.  And Regina confirmed that Zelena was still pregnant after everyone came back from the AU.  I still don't think that baby will see the light of day.  

 

Is Zelena going to fall in love with her baby and are we going to see some  character growth?  Is it just going to be a bargaining chip and is she going to turn green if people dote on it?  I wouldn't be surprised if Zelena was deathly jealous of her own kid.  She'll be one of those mothers who put their kids in the hospital to get sympathy from others.

 

I'm not looking forward to this story, but if it keeps Regina occupied, then by all means, I will roll out the red carpet for it.

[legaleagle53]

At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if the Outlaw Green baby grows up to be Merida. I mean, a redhead with archery skills? Plus her whole attitude of wanting to change her fate would work with her trying to not be a terrible person like her parents are.

Also, with Henry's Author powers, aren't they basically gone because he snapped the quill? Or can he just pick up any writing implement and change stuff if he's desperate? The first scenario would mean his character still hasn't really developed a whole lot from last season and wouldn't have much to offer the group by way of finding and saving Emma, but the latter would make things too easy.

 

The latter scenario would also violate what has been clearly established about the Author's true role.  The Author is only supposed to record history; he or she is never supposed to interfere with it.  Trying to magically influence events the way Isaac did rather than simply recording them is what got him locked inside the book in the first place, and it's why he ultimately lost his powers, which even he recognized (and resented).  It's also why, when Henry deliberately broke the quill (because he felt that no one should have that much power), the Apprentice approved of his action and said that Henry really was the right one for the job.

Edited June 3, 2015 by legaleagle53

[Rumsy4]

Unless it is the Quill that grants Author powers. Will Henry be able to travel across realms to record stories without the Quill? How will the next Author be chosen once Henry er... retires? Why did the Quill confer the ability to change events if it was not allowed? Too many questions...

[YaddaYadda]

Will Henry be able to travel across realms to record stories without the Quill?

 

I assumed that the reason Henry was revealed to be the Author so early on was so that he could open "doors" to other realms so that the gang might be able to find Emma wherever she is.  I guess with Henry being all special with his heart combined with his Author title, he might have enough power to travel through realms without the quill.

 

Looking forward to the contrivance and whatever they'll come up with to not explain something and then say that they've explained it.

 

I also have a hard time believing that the Jolly Roger was worth just 1 magic bean.  Most special ship, fastest in all the realms = 1 magic bean?  Hook would be the worst at negotiating something, ever!

[Curio]

I also have a hard time believing that the Jolly Roger was worth just 1 magic bean. Most special ship, fastest in all the realms = 1 magic bean? Hook would be the worst at negotiating something, ever!

 

I feel like there's a lot more to the magic bean trade that we never got to see on screen. (And probably will never get to see because these writers suck.) But if Blackbeard was indeed the person Hook traded his ship to, something must have gone awry during the trading process—there's no way Hook would willingly give Blackbeard his ship unless it was the absolute last option and Hook was desperate.

 

Perhaps when Hook ditched his crew and escaped the curse during the missing year, he still had plenty of treasure left on the Jolly Roger that he figured he could trade for a magic bean. If magic beans are as hard to come by as everyone on the show claims they are, I could see Hook going through a lot of his gold/money bribing people in the taverns and streets to get information out of them about where he could find a magical bean in the area. At some point without Hook knowing, Blackbeard (who unbeknownst to Hook is alive now) catches wind of Hook's desperate plan to find this magical bean. So instead of trying to kill Hook right away (he'd be pissed about Hook's attempt to kill him in "The Jolly Roger"), Blackbeard thinks it would be much more satisfying to find this magical bean before Hook can and rub it in his face that not only did Hook fail at killing him, but he lost the magical bean to him, too.

 

Finally, after many days of interviewing townspeople, fighting random bad guys along the way, and piecing together the mysterious clues about the bean's whereabouts, Hook comes across a decrepit woman hidden far away in the mountains who collects rare magical items and who supposedly has the extremely rare magical bean. When Hook offers up the only gold he has left to her, the old woman apologizes and says Hook is about 5 minutes too late—she literally just sold the last magical bean she had to someone else. Cue Blackbeard cackling in the doorway of the hut holding the magical bean and probably saying some cheesy pun. Hook charges at him and they fight for the bean. Since we're already in a cool mountainous/rocky setting, we could get an epic sword fight where the two pirates battle it out a la The Princess Bride's sword fight between Westley and Inigo. Somehow, Blackbeard gets the upper hand in the fight and asks for Hook's final words before he kills him, and Hook responds, "I'll trade you my ship." Believing it would be a far worse fate for Hook to stay alive knowing Blackbeard is the new owner of the Jolly Roger, he agrees to the deal and swaps him the tiny little bean for the biggest, fastest, most magical ship in all the enchanted lands.

 

The more I speculate about this, the more I get pissed off that this was all summed up in about 15 seconds of dialogue from Hook and Ariel. I can only imagine some big adventure like this had to have gone down before Hook traded his ship because, yeah...otherwise, Hook is the absolute worst negotiator ever.

Edited June 3, 2015 by Curio

[kingshearte]

At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if the Outlaw Green baby grows up to be Merida. I mean, a redhead with archery skills? Plus her whole attitude of wanting to change her fate would work with her trying to not be a terrible person like her parents are.

That sounds... alarmingly plausible.

[FurryFury]

But Merida's mother was, you know, a good mother!  I can't imagine Zelena as her. Maybe the baby will be adopted.

[Souris]

I still think Zelena will end up dying and Robin/Regina will raise the baby. Poor baby.

[YaddaYadda]

Baby = biggest loser...it's true you don't choose your parents.  Poor child.