S07.E09: Birthday In The Berks

[ryebread]

So Bethenny shows Heather she doesn't like her by dissing Carole? That's a diss on Carole, not Heather.

 

No. That's not what I responded to.  I responded to what you said:

 

As so many people say, they're a lot alike, so why is it so hard to believe that Heather initially thought they might get along?

 

Again, my response:

I guess it starts with Bethenny telling Heather that word on the street is that Carole might've had a ghost writer.

 

I wasn't addressing why Beth doesn't like Heather.  But why Heather might not like Bethenny.

[FaithsMum]

LOL. Always 2 ways to look at things. But I got the distinct impression, even then, that Beth couldn't stand her. And Heather won't stand for that. She will chase you from room to room, or pull you up from your chair to drag you to another room to get to the bottom of why you don't like her.

Ha, this made me laugh! I think Heather is one of those people that despite her self confidence can't handle it when people don't like her particularly if she believes it's for no reason, so she tries to force them to maybe without realising that her version of small talk is intrusive and she comes across as bossy and controlling in her attempts to force a connection.

Let it go, Heather. Even if she believes Bethenny's dislike of her is unfair etc, she still needs to let it go. Whether it is or isn't, you cannot make people like you and in attempting to do so, it's actually having the opposite effect.

[LotusFlower]

I wasn't addressing why Beth doesn't like Heather. But why Heather might not like Bethenny.

I understand that. Bethenny threw some subtle shade at Carole about bookgate while interviewing Heather. Do you think Heather went into filming armed and ready to dislike Bethenny for that alone? Cuz I certainly don't - not only was that fairly mild, but we saw scenes at the start of the season (and beyond) where Heather was trying to engage with Bethenny and get to know her. Maybe just maybe Heather didn't dislike her like you're assuming she did, or think she should have...

Edited June 8, 2015 by LotusFlower

[film noire]

For me, context is important within the group dynamics.

 

That's great -- but I wasn't talking about group dynamics. And the comment I posted to Luna (which you reposted, saying I was wrong re: Heather's involvement in Assgate) had absolutely nothing to do with group dynamics. The point I was making was about Heather, period. Not Heather vs any other housewife, not Heather vs. the group as a whole, not Heather including comparisons to every other housewife in the Slutty Island episode, just  Heather, and her behavior. One housewife, one thing *she said* and *she did* and my reaction to it. If I had said "Heather was the only one who did this", then group dynamics might enter it;  if I had said "Heather was the only who *didn't* do this", same again.  

 

 

And, yeah, when Beth came over for a hug, Heather did look like she's done...

 

Maybe Heather finally understands what it feels like to have someone ignore your clear signals, and then physically intrude upon you :)

Edited June 8, 2015 by film noire

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

Heather and Bethenny are not a lot alike. They are alike in some ways and those attributes have made them successful business women. But in a lot of ways, they are very different. The biggest IMO is that one is a perpetual victim and the other is anything but.

 

Bethenny was a victim of her parents due to circumstances that were beyond her control but she has yet to overcome that phase in her life. Some 20 plus years after the fact. She is still lamenting over them while vowing to move forward. She is also a victim of her ex husband, his parents, people she's worked with (don't the know the details but I know she's cried foul with someone she worked with in the past) and now she's Heather's victim. Heather just won't leave her alone, she weeps.

 

A perpetual victim like Bethenny is not the making of an alpha anything. Male or female. A loud mouthed quick tongued, chihuahua like way of speaking a take charge woman does not make. Would she like to be in charge of the room? Yes. Does she have the makings to make it happen? She can break all the glass in the room when she shrills but it won't happen because it takes more than being shrill and spitting out words like a machine gun to be in charge. 

 

Heather is the opposite of Bethenny in that if something is not right in her life, she won't cry about her non stop, she motherfuck everyone in close vicinity to until it is right, the way she sees it. She won't allow herself to a victim to anyone and I think she's the kind who would be offended if she's ever cast into at role. Bethenny intentionally curves that role for herself.  Heather won't take no for an answer whereas Bethenny would slink off into the next room to cry and whine like the strong alpha dog she is not. Ironically, what makes her so different from Bethenny is why Heather is coming off badly with regards to Bethenny as we are seeing. She's set out to interact with Bethenny and would do so so help her God. Because she's a take charge type like that and nothing, not even Bethenny's frailness due to her gazillion issues would stand in her way.

 

Run Bethenny, run. Heather is on your case. Or take notes from "stupid" Kristen on how to not allow Heather to bulldoze you. 

 

PS - This post is mostly tongue in cheek but I am so over hearing how alike Bethenny and Heather are, and the characteristic used to justify is that they are both alpha females or take charge women. One is, the other is a whimpering, crying mess when she is not running to hide from a situation she doesn't want to deal with.

[WireWrap]

That's great -- but I wasn't talking about group dynamics. And the comment I posted to Luna (which you reposted, saying I was wrong re: Heather's involvement in Assgate) had absolutely nothing to do with group dynamics. The point I was making was about Heather, period. Not Heather vs any other housewife, not Heather vs. the group as a whole, not Heather including comparisons to every other housewife in the Slutty Island episode, just  Heather, and her behavior. One housewife, one thing *she said* and *she did* and my reaction to it. If I had said "Heather was the only one who did this", then group dynamics might enter it;  if I had said "Heather was the only who *didn't* do this", same again.  

 

 

Maybe Heather finally understand what it feels like to have someone ignore your clear signals, and then physically intrude upon you :)

In other words, you want to make the point that Heather has said things, gossiped, and be judged solely on that alone, no context of when, why or how it was said, correct? I will try to remember that. And as far as my comment that some blame Heather for revealing Sonja/pirate on the show, I stand by that it was Carole who first said anything on camera about it, not Heather but I do agree that Heather chimed in right after her.

[ryebread]

I understand that. Bethenny threw some subtle shade at Carole about bookgate while interviewing Heather. Do you think Heather went into filming armed and ready to dislike Bethenny for that alone?  Cuz I certainly don't - not only was that fairly mild, but we saw scenes at the start of the season (and beyond) where Heather was trying to engage with Bethenny and get to know her. Maybe just maybe Heather didn't dislike her like you're assuming she did, or think she should have...

Again, no.  I said in a different post - way at the top of the page, you must've missed it that Heather probably watched Bethenny's seasons and her spin-offs and noticed the unlikeable traits that many people noticed. They're not hard to miss. Could be why they don't like each other (assuming they don't and they're giving me plenty of reasons to believe so) - they're very similar in a lot of ways.

 

I think Heather was only trying to engage with Bethenny at the beginning because she's not entirely stupid when it comes to reading people and knew she was no longer HBOC and needed to make nice with the new one.  Keep your friends close and all that.

[ryebread]

In other words, you want to make the point that Heather has said things, gossiped, and be judged solely on that alone, no context of when, why or how it was said, correct? I will try to remember that. And as far as my comment that some blame Heather for revealing Sonja/pirate on the show, I stand by that it was Carole who first said anything on camera about it, not Heather but I do agree that Heather chimed in right after her.

 

I remember in the BH thread, it happened often that I'd say something about the then favorite, Lisa Rinna, for instance.  And it was roundly countered with, "But Brandi did xyz...."  or "But Kim said so much worse...."

 

The point is, I wasn't talking about Brandi or Kim.  I was only speaking to how Lisa Rinna was acting. All I wanted to do was get across my opinion of Lisa Rinna and perhaps get a discussion going about someone other than Kim and Brandi.

[film noire]

 

. She won't allow herself to a victim to anyone 

 

If nothing else, Heather is a victim of her own lack of self awareness & complete inability to read a room, a mood -- a human face! -- and I don’t see “take charge” in her, I see toxic.  Heather (at least as she behaves on the show) firmly believes she has the right to not only attempt to control other people's choices and decisions, she expects to be THANKED when she goes into badgering, interfering mode. And when she isn't thanked, she gets angry and peevish and says shitty, stupid things. She should stop piss-mouthing about  putting on a skully and teaching a bitch a lesson (stay klassy, The Heathers!)  and instead consider whether what is going on with Bethenny is actually one of the few signs of health Bethenny has shown this season -- a wholesale rejection of Heather's ongoing aggressive attempts to control everything and everyone around her (often to the detriment of everyone else).

In other words, you want to make the point that Heather has said things, gossiped, and be judged solely on that alone, no context of when, why or how it was said, correct? 

 

I give up.

Edited June 8, 2015 by film noire

[ryebread]

PS - This post is mostly tongue in cheek but I am so over hearing how alike Bethenny and Heather are, and the characteristic used to justify is that they are both alpha females or take charge women. One is, the other is a whimpering, crying mess when she is not running to hide from a situation she doesn't want to deal with.

 

And as you wrote this, I was writing that I think they are a lot alike. LOL.  Not in all ways. Of course not.  But I think they are both take charge females - yes, Bethenny is a sloppy mess when she's been with these 'ladies' lately but even take charge gals have bad days.  You don't get to where she is without being one. I doubt she's bawling in the boardroom.  Chances are, the other board members in the room aren't trying to force her to eat a meatball or trying to drag her away from the table to have a one-on-one.  Heather and Beth, both Type As.  Both loud mouth and crass.  Both quick tempered and both like to talk.  A lot.  I could go on.  But I'll also agree that there are many ways they're different, too.

[ryebread]

Heather (at least as she behaves on the show) firmly believes she has the right to not only attempt to control other people's choices and decisions,[/b}she expects to be THANKED when she goes into badgering, interfering mode. And when she isn't thanked, she gets angry and peevish and says shitty, stupid things. 

 

And after she says the stupid things, the person she's been badgering says something in response which Heather gets all butt hurt about and somehow the other person apologizes. But nothing from Heather. 

 

Regarding the part I bolded in your quote:  I posted a vid in Heather's thread.  When asked, she said it's not that she doesn't get along with Aviva, she just has trouble with Aviva's 'choices'.  Try as she might, she can't always control people's choices unless they are her minor children and living in her house.  Or in her kindergarten class.

[LotusFlower]

Again, no.  I said in a different post - way at the top of the page, you must've missed it that Heather probably watched Bethenny's seasons and her spin-offs and noticed the unlikeable traits that many people noticed. They're not hard to miss. Could be why they don't like each other (assuming they don't and they're giving me plenty of reasons to believe so) - they're very similar in a lot of ways.

But again, you're assuming things. I was simply responding to your question to breezy asking what made her think Heather liked Bethenny in the first place. What's to like? you asked. She's so bitchy and harsh. Now you're assuming she saw Bethenny in earlier seasons, or her spinoffs and didn't like what she saw. And then the talk show appearance. Who knows? Maybe. I'm simply pointing out that these are assumptions, whereas I think there's direct evidence that shows the opposite to be true. I think Heather went into the season hoping to befriend Bethenny, and a lot of scenes back that up. It also explains why Heather has been so slow on the "Bethenny's just not into you" uptake, when we all saw it from a mile away.

[FaithsMum]

... whether what is going on with Bethenny is actually one of the few signs of health Bethenny has shown this season -- a wholesale rejection of Heather's ongoing aggressive attempts to control everything and everyone around her (often to the detriment of everyone else).

Do you know, that's actually a really good point. Bethenny does not like Heather, I think everyone can agree on that and she is attempting to hold her at arms length which is actually pretty healthy way to deal with a colleague you dislike. It's Heather who is pushing and pushing because she just can't get over the fact Bethenny doesn't like her and above polite but distant small talk, doesn't want to interact with her.

Prickly, brittle me couldn't handle Heather either and probably would've reacted in much the same way Bethenny did at the dinner party. She's too much. I think S1-3 Bethenny would have handled Heather's overbearing ways much differently.

I'm not sure Heather lacks self awareness though; I just think she can't deal with it when she's evidently disliked by someone. While I think she's potentially oblivious to how her controlling, bossy manner comes across I think she gets that Bethenny doesn't like her - and that's why she behaves the way she does because for whatever reason she's desperate to form a friendship and it pisses her off that B isn't interested.

[Celia Rubenstein]

I think Heather went into the season hoping to befriend Bethenny, and a lot of scenes back that up. It also explains why Heather has been so slow on the "Bethenny's just not into you" uptake, when we all saw it from a mile away.

Did Heather mean to befriend Bethenny? Or conquer her? I think it is the the latter.

The kind of things I've seen from Heather this season are not overtures of friendship. It's more about asserting dominance. You should buy her a car, you should apologize, you should fix your custody, you should take this damn meatball and eat it or you can eat nothing ... none of that is friendly. It's trying to show you are the boss.

I think being friends with Bethenny is a lot less important to Heather than showing her who is in control, who is the HBIC. Heather could like Beth or hate her and it wouldn't matter. She'd still be acting the same way. It's about power to her, not friendship. If it was just about being friends, I think Heather would have realized it wasn't gonna happen and moved on by now. But she is determined to win this little power struggle she created and she just cant bring herself to admit defeat and walk away.

Edited June 8, 2015 by Celia Rubenstein

[hottesthw]

Did Heather mean to befriend Bethenny? Or conquer her? I think it is the the latter.

The kind of things I've seen from Heather this season are not overtures of friendship. It's more about asserting dominance. You should buy her a car, you should apologize, you should fix your custody, you should take this damn meatball and eat it or you can eat nothing ... none of that is friendly. It's trying to show you are the boss.

I think being friends with Bethenny is a lot less important to Heather than showing her who is in control, who is the HBIC. Heather could like Beth or hate her and it wouldn't matter. She'd still be acting the same way. It's about power to her, not friendship. If it was just about being friends, I think Heather would have realized it wasn't gonna happen and moved on by now. But she is determined to win this little power struggle she created and she just cant bring herself to admit defeat and walk away.

Well I hope to goodness Bethenny goes out and buys Luann a car so happiness can once again reign in HW land. [/sarcasm].

I think it's pretty obvious, at least to me, that Heather was clearly joking to Bethenny about the car . And many have already proven the "fix it" statement was definitely taken out of context.

[motorcitymom65]

This is not true.  It was uncomfortable because Bethenny disagreed with Heather on a lot of things.  AND IIRC, she said that even though she had no idea if Carole had a ghost writer, people around her were saying it. Like, word on the street.  Ruh roh.  Them's fightin' words.

 

I think both of them came into this not liking each other. They both watched each other's seasons and came away with negative feelings. How could they not?   Heather probably watched Beth and saw the shrill, messy woman that Beth is and Beth watched Heather and saw the bossy, know-it-all that Heather is.  If most of us saw that they wouldn't get along, how could they not see it?  Bethenny doesn't like anybody.  Much.

 

And if Heather really said that in an interview about finishing Beth's sentence's and Beth heard that, then Heather kind of deserves whatever Bethenny is dishing.  Was that in a written interview, like ROL?  Or did those words actually come out of her mouth?

The words actually came out of her mouth. I don't think this interview would have been the thing to make Beth treat Heather like dirt, since it is relatively new. 

 

http://allthingsrh.com/heather-thomson-says-sees-eye-eye-bethenny-business/

[Leroux]

When you see the first look you will understand why Heather is no longing interested in being nice to Beth. I'm sure she has thought she was a bitch almost from the beginning, and now she is finally just saying it out loud.

 

I agree with you here 100%

 

That fake mask about Heather trying to befriend her, trying to bond with her and being nice with her has always been BS to me, Heather herself has made very obvious that she sees Bethenny as an annoying threat and Bethenny has always known this and that is why she has refused to engage her.

 

Heather was the HBIC for three seasons and she fancies as the most succesful and level headed of the bunch and she wasn't going to let Betheny steal her thunder. Her attempts to be "nice" couldn't be masked by her harsh words and comments towards Bethenny so I don't think this comes as a huge revelation to anybody least of all Bethenny.

 

It is only Heather's apologists who had believed or have wanted to believe that all the attention she was giving Bethenny was coming out of the kindness of her heart and because she is just such a nice person that she had to befriend her at all costs, that is what Heather was trying to sell but I knew since the get go what her game was and I am sure that bethenny saw through her since the get go too.

[motorcitymom65]

Do you know, that's actually a really good point. Bethenny does not like Heather, I think everyone can agree on that and she is attempting to hold her at arms length which is actually pretty healthy way to deal with a colleague you dislike. It's Heather who is pushing and pushing because she just can't get over the fact Bethenny doesn't like her and above polite but distant small talk, doesn't want to interact with her.

Prickly, brittle me couldn't handle Heather either and probably would've reacted in much the same way Bethenny did at the dinner party. She's too much. I think S1-3 Bethenny would have handled Heather's overbearing ways much differently.

I'm not sure Heather lacks self awareness though; I just think she can't deal with it when she's evidently disliked by someone. While I think she's potentially oblivious to how her controlling, bossy manner comes across I think she gets that Bethenny doesn't like her - and that's why she behaves the way she does because for whatever reason she's desperate to form a friendship and it pisses her off that B isn't interested.

I think it is so hard to say if they did/didn't like each other coming into this whole deal. Commenting on behavior is pretty easy (and even then we don't all agree on what we just saw), but ascertaining intent is hard because we just don't really know. To me it looks as if Beth didn't care much for Heather in the beginning, and that Heather either didn't realize this, or wanted to make it different. It is easy to say that Heather has tried to force a relationship on Beth, but I think that to do that you have to forget that Beth hasn't been all that pleasant to everyone else either, and that Heather has been witness to this. She saw the way that Beth and Ramona went at it during their first meeting, and Beth continued to talk about Ramona for the next two episodes (at Brunch and at the lunch with Lu). Then Heather saw Beth tell Sonja what word on the street was about her behavior both in the limo, and at dinner; to the point that she made Sonja cry, which doesn't happen that much.  Heather has seen Beth be harsh to others, yet she still finds a way to later interact with them and get along. I think that up until a point Heather thought the same could/would happen for them, and at dinner she finally realized it wasn't so much about Beth being a raging bitch, it was about Beth not caring much for her in particular. 

 

The most interesting thing about the dinner (some of it in the first look) is that the dynamics of that relationship changed so quickly. It went from Beth having all the control and making Heather look somewhat like a total fool because Heather cared about having a relationship and Beth didn't, to suddenly Heather telling Beth it would be all up to her how/if they interacted in the future.  I still think they could end up being friends. 

[archer1267]

Two burning questions that have nothing to do with Heather or Bethenny:

 

1) Is this the first time we've seen LuAnn with reading glasses?? I've not seen her wear them before. (Scene at RedLion.)

 

2) Did Sonja greet everyone with a partially-open robe, or just John? I'm not even going to try to address that.

[motorcitymom65]

I agree with you here 100%

 

That fake mask about Heather trying to befriend her, trying to bond with her and being nice with her has always been BS to me, Heather herself has made very obvious that she sees Bethenny as an annoying threat and Bethenny has always known this and that is why she has refused to engage her.

 

It is only Heather's apologists who had believed or have wanted to believe that all the attention she was giving Bethenny was coming out of the kindness of her heart and because she is just such a nice person that she had to befriend her at all costs, that is what Heather was trying to sell but I knew since the get go what her game was and I am sure that bethenny saw through her since the get go too.

I would probably be considered a Heather apologist, but I have never thought for a second that Heather was trying to befriend Beth because of some type of kindness in her heart. It could have been for camera time, it could have been because she wanted to get along with her co-worker, it could have been because she thought they could have been friends. I am always nice to the new people at work (even when their reputation proceeds them) but it isn't because my heart is so huge or anything. It is simply because it is the right thing to do and I would prefer at least initially to have a good working relationship.

 

 I also have no idea why - If Beth thinks that Heather was insincere in her attempts to be nice and was just doing so for the show - why she wouldn't hold this type of thing against Ramona and Lu (or any of the others). Do we believe that Beth thinks that those two are trying to get on her good side because they now love her? She has said she kept in a bit of contact with Lu over the years, but Ramona hardly at all. If they really cared about her, wouldn't they have all kept in contact after being on a reality show together for years? By the above analysis, Beth wasn't nice to Heather because she sensed her interest in her wasn't real. I don't think Beth is so stupid as to believe that the interest from any of these gals was real, but all about the show. She let the rest of them have this, but for whatever reason she wasn't going to let Heather have it. 

[Sincerely Yours]

John:  We have our gourmet sushi chef......

Bethy:  Fabulous.

John:  .......tonight and I think everyone's going to......

Bethy:  I only eat shellfish.  I will tell you right now, I only eat shellfish.  Only eat shellfish.

Dorinda:  Oh, god.

Bethy:  We'll deal with it when it comes out.

 

Might have been nice to allow the host to finish, no?

Thank you Thank you Thank you!!! One thing that wasn't brought up and I just figured there was so much else and in general the main idea was talked about regarding this "food allergy" but Beth's delivery was obnoxious. I mean, she didn't even wait until John finished explaining to the table about the chef and about the menu before she broke in with I only eat shellfish... Um what? Wow. I mean this is what I mean about Beth, She just can't let a conversation happen without somehow hijacking it. She couldn't even let the host explain the menu to the table for the OTHER GUESTS that would be able to enjoy it before she shifted to focus to herself. Why does she need to do this ALL OF THE TIME and why hasn't anyone just shut it down. Easier said than done I've noticed and don't get me wrong but as "crazy" as Kelly was I think that was what her warring with Beth was about. I think Kelly was constantly trying to call Beth out and acknowledge to Beth that she's not going to tolerate Beth's abrupt way of making her "points" at the expense of others and being rudely catty just because she wants to blurt shit out whenever she feels like it. Beth didn't like Kelly and from day one acted rudely towards her and always had a bone to pick with her. Heather tried to shut her down but again fail.

 

I mean Beth thinks that it's open season on everyone, everything, all the time. At dinner it was the attack on the lame conversation, then it was the attack on the fish. It's like she's that person that is always pointing out what the fuck is bothering her and what's wrong with this picture instead of just making nice conversation and having positive interactions with people. Like fuckity fuck fuck with this woman.

[Sincerely Yours]

Bethenny didn't say she was allergic.  Heather mentioned it first and I also thought she was making an assumption because....well....Heather.  But it's true that Bethenny is allergic to fish..."DEATHLY allergic!!" according to an interview she did in 2012.

I was HOPING she was allergic cause the way she said she only eats shellfish sounded so fucking rude if it was just a preference and not an allergy. At first I thought she was just pointing out a preference until Heather mentioned allergy. 

[KungFuBunny]

I kind of consider Ramona an emoticon....

 

Yes she is...

 

[Sincerely Yours]

Heather did NOT mention that article at all. She said that someone "Googled" him, the reporter of the group (Carole) and he replied to "not believe everything they read". Heather never mentioned Ramona, Mario or the mistress to anyone at any time during the dinner. She only talked with him about his restaurants.

EXACTLY!

Edited June 8, 2015 by Sincerely Yours

[archer1267]

Might have been nice to allow the host to finish, no?

 

 

Not just that, but I'm sure the sushi chef would have appreciated the exposure of having his name uttered on the show. (I noticed that Heather name-checked him in her blog, which was nice.) By Bethenny interrupting, she insured that that didn't happen.

[Leroux]

Heather didn't need to mentioned exactly what article was she referring to, there is nothing about articles about this guy except the ones that mention that he dated Mario's mistress, he is not a celebrity who has articles posted about him every day so it might be about something else, his biusiness acumen has not merited him any articles in the press, at least not in the time frame when this dinner was filmed.

 

When Heather mentioned that a journalist had googled him with that huge smile of hers, I am sure that he knew exactly what articles she was referring to; Luann knew, Carole knew and Ramona knew , the rest might not have been aware if they are not into idle gossip but the fact remains that the guy felt unconfortable and he even called it a roast. Heather obviously only did it because she is such a great friend and "cares so much about Ramona" because Heather never has anything but altruistic intention (rolling eyes)  

[Jel]

I don't see blind loyalty towards Heather at all. I'm a fan, but I don't cheerlead everything she does, and I think that's the same for most Heather fans here. In fact, I feel like that characterization puts us in a category with Tre Huggers, which is verging on the offensive, if you know what I mean. (Take a look at those websites, and you'll see what a rabid fan base looks like).

On the contrary, it feels like the inverse is true. You're free to dislike anyone you want, but you asked fans of Heather if there was anything she could do that would cross the line. Does she have any redeemable qualities, in your view? Cuz it feels like she can't win for trying.

I never said "blind loyalty" or "rabid". Those are your words, not mine.  What I did say was I think Heather should consider herself lucky to have such loyal fans, and I stand by that. 

 

I wrote that post because it occurred to me that we are all watching the same show and reading the same posts, and if some posters don't see what I would consider to be over the top behavior over the top, with examples on the show and outlined very well by other posters, a number of times, in this forum, then we just aren't going to see eye to eye.  At that point, I attempted to politely remove myself from the argument by wishing Heather fans God speed and more power to them.  That's not an insult where I live.  I then ended it with "a funny" to keep the post light.

 

IIRC in another post you took issue with my comment that we see examples of Heather's objectionable behavior practically every week. We do. In words or actions or demeanor, she is, in my view, frequently hostile and aggressive practically every week, this week's episode being a prime example.   I don't see any reason to list any more examples because we don't seem to be interpreting the same behavior in the same way.

 

And I didn't address my question only to Heather fans -- it was a rhetorical device, akin throwing one's hands up in the air, to express my incredulity.

 

Like I said, and to whatever degree of Heather fan you may be, I wish you well, we don't agree, let's dip the chip once and end it.

[Sincerely Yours]

If Heather wanted to give Peter a "heads up" she would have done it off camera, not sitting at the dinner table with twenty people in front of rolling cameras where she had no control over what would happen.  That's not much of a heads up in my book, more like an "enjoy the view of the bottom of the bus."  

 

Bethenny may do things to please the producers but I've never known her to be willing to just stick it to someone the way Heather was trying to do Peter (and to Ramona, too).  She may engage in a lot of stupid stunts and she may take part in obviously contrived meetings to discuss problems with people like Kelly or Luann ... but just out of nowhere mentioning something to purely embarrass someone?  Just to please the producers?  Nah.  That's not her style.  

It's not her style to please producer. Maybe. But it definitely is her style to throw shit out and embarrass someone just cause she gets pleasure out of it. Ummm yeah it is.

[Duke2801]

Great catch on the table scapes and ever-changing hairdos, motorcitymom65! I am going to start watching for that, too.

 

One thing your post put me in mind of, (and this is just in general in the forum, not directed at you personally) is that it really seems that Heather, no matter what she does, up to and including actually screaming obscenities in people's faces (just so far over the top and miles beyond anything even remotely acceptable in the world I live in) is given a pass because of shitty, unfair editing or a lousy day or her awesome motherfuckin' street cred or how great she is for not playing the "sick kid card" etc. Is there no line anywhere with this woman?  This has got to be one of the most loyal and devoted fan bases I have ever seen. Heather should really consider herself lucky.

 

LOl.  Replace "Bethenny" with "Heather."  And "divorce" "custody battle" and "terrible childhood" with "shitty, unfair editing or a lousy day, etc..."  and I'm right there with ya!

 

Seriously, though, you could say that about almost any of the Housewives on any franchise.  Especially the more polarizing ones.  I mean, Vicki and Tamra on OC have done and said far, far, FAR worse things than Heather has ever done, but they still have their fan base.  Same with Ramona. 

 

It really just comes down to who you like, and who you don't.  And it's all a matter of opinion, as far as I'm concerned. 

 

My wish is a new scene with Luanne plus whoever and they talk about some of their crazier adventures....then Bravo...please please please show a flashback of Luanne's camel ride in Morocco

 

 

Omg!  If they would play that amazing scene along with Lu's yelling at Ramona/Sonja that "This is NOT the Plaza Hotel... THIS IS MOROCCO" on a continual loop, I would be a happy, happy girl.  Oops, I mean "woman."  Sorry!

Edited June 8, 2015 by Duke2801

[mostlylurking]

Since John was there for her when her husband died and I can see why Dorinda is so protective of him with the other ladies. However I didn't agree with what she said it Kristen. Kristen was joining in and it was all in fun at first, but then John got a little too handsy and she felt uncomfortable which is valid. I think Dorinda was wrong to say she had no reason to complain but at least now I can see where she's coming from.

I felt a little bad for Ramona's date. Yes he is a little boring to be on TV but Heather was asking him questions about his business and he was answering. What more can we expect?? He seems too normal for Ramona but he's accomplished and good looking so who knows.

Bethany has some serious issues and probably shouldn't be on this show. Crawling into a ball and bawling on the floor?! Dramatic much?? She is exhausting to watch, always so tense and uptight. I've always been a B fan, but she makes anxious every time I look at her tensed up face. Her blood pressure must be through the roof.

I feel a little bad for Heather. I think she's just a more open person and is not used to dealing with a person who is so wound up such as Bethanny. I think they both need to chill out because again it is exhausting and uncomfortable to watch.

Not a fan of Dorinda's decorating, it all looked kind of cheap and tacky to me. Just because it's bigger doesn't always mean better.

I thought Luann and Ramona talking out the whole fiasco at the restaurant was very mature. Ramona still has her moments but she has definitely changed for the better.

[Mozelle]

Man, LuAnn's camel ride in Morocco! Even the camel knew that LuAnn was full of it and wanted no parts.

[motorcitymom65]

I thought Luann and Ramona talking out the whole fiasco at the restaurant was very mature. Ramona still has her moments but she has definitely changed for the better.

Ramona has changed for the better....but don't tell her that. It makes her mad!

[Otherkate]

let's dip the chip once and end it.

 

I have never heard this expression, but I like it!

[SCS]

 

1) Is this the first time we've seen LuAnn with reading glasses?? I've not seen her wear them before. (Scene at RedLion.)

 

I'm kind of appalled that I can answer this (I think I need to step away from the minutiae of these insane broads):

Back a few seasons, Lu was an overnight guest at Tuesday Morning's overstuffed warehouse-- I keed, at Jill's hideously decorated apartment, and we saw her in readers. This was when her divorce from Count Chocula was known and she had no city home, just the Hamptons house. She is sitting up in bed reviewing paperwork and Jillzy comes in for a nice chat. I amused myself by pretending the papers were a contract from that odd music producer (the "now, that's what I'm talk in' about!" dude) promising her fame and fortune as the world's next star chanteuse.

[SCS]

Ramona has changed for the better....but don't tell her that. It makes her mad!

Now I see the opposite: I think Moaner realized how awful she came across in the past few seasons and she's reining it in. I hope Restraint-free Ramoana isn't gone forever -- she was annoying as hell and hence delightfully snarkable.

[ryebread]

I'm kind of appalled that I can answer this (I think I need to step away from the minutiae of these insane broads)

 

When I first read this, I thought you said you needed to "step away from the minutiae of these insane boards) and I was all like, "No! You can't go!  All the plants will die." 

 

I remember Lu in readers at Chateau Wallpaper du Gaud.  But I think the reading material she had in her hand was Jill's newly published book which Jill had conveniently placed on the nightstand.

[KungFuBunny]

What has Heather done to demonstrate that she doesn't like Beth?  I didn't get the comment she made about buying Lu a car as something nasty.  It seemed more like a joke.  What does 'not liking' Beth have to do with Heather saying that Kris was hurt she wasn't invited to the birthday party?  If anyone was the bitch in that scene was Beth and even Beth admitted she was harsh in her blog.  What does seeing half a conversation about Beth's custody relate to Heather not liking Beth.  What does offering meatballs albeit it she should have backed off have to do with Heather not liking Beth?  

 

I agree with Heather when she asked why is everyone afraid or whatever it is about Beth.  Was that at the Red Lion Inn?  After Do's birthday dinner, yeah, Heather doesn't like Beth.  And that was the only scene between them that Heather should have kept arm's length.

 

The thing about Beth is she has no problem being bitchy and harsh when 'she' wants to.  Her reaction to Heather telling her Kris was hurt.  Her comments about the women at Ro's birthday party.  Her TH regarding Sonja's new business.  Or how bout that guy at the night club when they had single girl's night out.  Beth can be Beth but boy, if you get her in one of her 'moods' watch out.  Or as Lu pointed out, when Beth gets like this (at Do's BD party) back off.   

Episode 5 at Dorinda's event (SandwichGate)

 

Heather went up to Kristen and Josh

So I got to tell you something, sit down. So I went to dinner with Bethenny and I said to her that when I got to the birthday party and you guys weren't there, I just wanted her to know that your feelings were a little hurt and that's okay. So I was not making a big deal out of it at all. She made a big deal out of it. She put her head down like she was asleep and said this conversation is boring me. It pissed me off. I was like why are you being such a bitch. That in my life, when someone shows me their true colors, I believe them. So I'm not into getting to know her a little bit better. That's it, arm's length, I'm cool.

 

Meanwhile since that dinner with Bethenny/Dorinda/Heather/Carole...Bethenny and Heather did speak because Bethenny told her she went to Sonja's showroom. Heather went up to Sonja at this event earlier to ask Sonja about it.

 

Just from what came out of Heather's mouth at this event is not showing me she wants to be warm and fuzzy and connect with Bethenny.

I think you're right.

 

When I looked for Skully caps, I found several different types but the only one that would make you look "tough" is this one.

 

 

I found them in black too.

 

Heather please return Joey Gorga's Mandana....the marbles are falling out his head

[ZaldamoWilder]

Must post while it's still in my queue lol  

 

So, after having watched the show, I'll throw my opinions into the fray.  I sympathize with both women.

 

Full disclosure: Heather has rubbed me wrong since the beginning.  The "holla", the teeth, the bossyness ... they're all too much for me.  I, like Bethenny, would've disliked her immediately.  Not because she's mean because I don't think she is.  But she annoys me and that's okay.  None of us *have* to like anybody and there doesn't have to be a particular reason for it.  Some folks just give you a bad vibe.  They just get under your skin.  You can realize that they've never been nasty or done anything to you and still not want to be friends with them.

 

And this is where I start feeling for both of them.  Bethenny doesn't like Heather.  She doesn't want to be friends with her.  That is Bethenny's right, even though she acknowledges that she doesn't have a real reason for disliking Heather other than she just ... doesn't.  I don't think Heather's a completely unaware idiot.  I think it's quite clear to her that Bethenny doesn't like her and she can't figure out why.  Heather is doing what she knows to do.  She's *trying*.  She's trying way too hard.  She's showing Bethenny all one million of her teeth.  She's offering to get their kids together.  She's calling Bethenny by nicknames.  She's offering to help ... over and over and over.  She's being very much like folks in my family are.  They overwhelm you with attention and help and affection, even when you don't want it.  Declining it is an affront to them and I can see it's an affront to Heather.  I think Heather's tears at the end of the episode are ones of frustration and confusion.  She just can't figure out why Bethenny doesn't like her.  She thinks she's being fun and engaging and friendly and she expected Bethenny to respond positively and Bethenny isn't.  Even though I don't like Heather, I feel for her.  It's not fun to be rejected.  I think Heather is used to being popular and in control of situation and in this case, she's disliked and feels herself rapidly losing control.  That sucks for her.

 

Bethenny, meanwhile, can be a rude, dismissive jerk.  Though I agree with her estimation of Heather, I think she's been over the top in her reactions in many cases.  She's swatted Heather like a fly, basically.  Not cute.  I also think, due to all the shit she has going on, Bethenny was one raw nerve.  I was the same way when my ex and I ended our marriage.  I was antsy and snippy and on the verge of tears all the time.  I needed folks to keep things light around me - it was a respite from all the heavy things I was dealing with constantly.  I think that's what Bethenny wants - light, simple, surface interactions.  Heather is trying to connect with her and Bethenny doesn't want it.  At all.  In this case, I don't see rudeness from Bethenny.  She and Heather have had a few not-so-great moments together already.  She wants to keep Heather at arm's length and Heather is refusing to allow that to happen.  I don't think Bethenny was nasty in her response to the repeatedly proffered meatball (and can you believe the meltdown over a meatball?).  She just wanted Heather's attention away from her.  When Bethenny was finally getting to have a light (and probably drunken) moment with Sonja, Heather interrupted it.  Again forcing herself on Bethenny.  I saw confusion from Bethenny in that moment.  Like, "WTF.  I'm not even talking to you guys.  Leave me alone."  She tried to explain it to Heather in what were, for Bethenny, calm terms.  "I feel like you're tending to me.  I don't want that.  I don't want attention."  Now given: Editing.  So we don't know for sure.  But the shown response to that pretty calm declaration was, "I can tell you whatever the fuck I want" (or similar - forgive me if that's not the exact quote).  Come on.  Just as Bethenny's previous reactions had been disproportionate, Heather's was completely over the top.

 

Do I think Heather was consciously being an ass then?  No.  I think she was embarrassed and frustrated.  She'd just been told she was disliked and unwanted, in front of an entire table of people.  She lashed out.  In that moment, a take-charge woman thinks, "We're being silly.  I'm gonna take charge.  I will take Bethenny by the hand and we will go in the other room and hash this out like adults."  That was her intention.  But it looked like a mom stomping over to a naughty child to take her out of the room for a "talking to".  That's how I would have received it, too.  But being an outside observer, I can see that it wasn't with malicious intent.  Heather thought this would help.  But she'd just been TOLD that Bethenny didn't want her overtures.  She should've heard that and accepted it.  Again ... frustration.  Embarrassment.  Confusion.  Thus, Heather's tears.  And Bethenny wound up the center of attention on a day when she didn't want any at all and was teetering on the edge.  Thus, Bethenny's tears.

 

I have to admit: I cried a little, too.  I felt both of them and it sucked.

 

A.   Ovation.
 

I think the dinner party situation is one of mileage.  My friends and I have group dinners like that regularly.  15 or more of us, usually.  And when we do, there are at least three conversations happening simultaneously.  One group will be having a serious heart-to-heart.  One will be talking about fashion.  One will be indulging in drunken gossip.  Anything and everything is talked about and all at the same time.  No one gets upset.  No pissyness if somebody gets loud at the other end of the table.  Maybe we'll look in that direction and laugh or even roll our eyes.  I've even had napkins tossed in my direction if I'm especially loud.  But it's no biggie.  Folks ebb and flow.  They drop out of and enter conversations freely.

 

Again, I don't think either were particularly wrong.  Bethenny is more like my friend circle in that she didn't seem to give a damn who was in what conversation (at least at that moment).  Heather is more the "Let's be polite and pay attention to the one talking".  Another case of crossed wires.  Not to mention that, if you're already pissed off with someone and don't like them, everything they do is gonna make you wanna slap their face.

 

B.  For what seems like ever, I've been studying whether or not any nyareaptvers are interested in a summer 2015 grub get-to-gether.  Cannot advise of status, but in the meantime, in lieu of that, I'd be happy to stalk one of your own, so for diligence purposes, please PM me the location of your next girls brunch.  :P

 

C.  You guys, 20+ pages?  That's commitment.  or something.  Jesus.  lol!

 

p.s. wrt aforementioned brunch, Toy, I do eat shellfish.

[Jel]

I have never heard this expression, but I like it!

It's originally from an episode of Seinfeld, where a dude objects to George's double-dipping a chip.  In a "we're done here, right?" sense, well that I may have appropriated from someone, and if I have I am sorry for not crediting you! It's my memory that sucks, not my intentions.

[motorcitymom65]

Episode 5 at Dorinda's event (SandwichGate)

 

Heather went up to Kristen and Josh

So I got to tell you something, sit down. So I went to dinner with Bethenny and I said to her that when I got to the birthday party and you guys weren't there, I just wanted her to know that your feelings were a little hurt and that's okay. So I was not making a big deal out of it at all. She made a big deal out of it. She put her head down like she was asleep and said this conversation is boring me. It pissed me off. I was like why are you being such a bitch. That in my life, when someone shows me their true colors, I believe them. So I'm not into getting to know her a little bit better. That's it, arm's length, I'm cool.

 

Meanwhile since that dinner with Bethenny/Dorinda/Heather/Carole...Bethenny and Heather did speak because Bethenny told her she went to Sonja's showroom. Heather went up to Sonja at this event earlier to ask Sonja about it.

 

Just from what came out of Heather's mouth at this event is not showing me she wants to be warm and fuzzy and connect with Bethenny.

 

I see what you are saying, and certainly Heather seemed to have seen Beth's true colors after snore-gate, but I also think that they had some moments after that when Heather thought maybe they were starting to make break-through.  Beth never indicated to Heather that she didn't like the nanny conversation, and it certainly looked as if Beth was an active and willing participant. It is hard to really know what to make of it, because like many things involving Heather this season, we are coming in during the middle of a conversation or situation (for example the deal at Sonja's).  Also, from the accounts of many during the AC trip, there was much fun going on in Heather's room while they were all waiting. Apparently Heather had hired someone to do her hair, and when she came in Beth mentioned she wished she would have thought of that. Heather offered the services of the hairdresser to Beth, and let her go first (which is what made Heather late). That would have been a nice bit to see, as I will assume Beth was not barking at Heather during this time (although I could be wrong and maybe she was and Heather was forcing her to get her hair done). For some reason, they only want to show us the times when Heather seems to be irritating Beth, and nothing else. There must have been more to it than that, which is why I think that Heather thought that there was still the possibility to be friends. Not that this means she didn't think Beth to be a bitch. I have always thought that Beth was a total and complete bitch, yet I still liked her because there was so much other stuff that I thought was really good. Now, I don't see that much good stuff, but I hope that it is still there lurking. 

Edited June 8, 2015 by motorcitymom65

[quaintirene]

 

The 40's glam look at dinner was nice enough from the waist up, but I believe I saw in one shot that it was a midi length flared dress that she paired with BOOTS!! It could have been lovely as a floor length gown, but WTF was that??? No, just no.

Well to be fair to LuAnn, the 70s are really 'in' right now.  And that was very much a 70s look.  Mind you, they say if you are old enough to be around the first time, maybe you shouldn't do that look again.  And I'm pretty sure that The Countess is old enough to remember at least the late 70s.  

[rissa]

In other words, you want to make the point that Heather has said things, gossiped, and be judged solely on that alone, no context of when, why or how it was said, correct? I will try to remember that. And as far as my comment that some blame Heather for revealing Sonja/pirate on the show, I stand by that it was Carole who first said anything on camera about it, not Heather but I do agree that Heather chimed in right after her.

Nope, I just watched the Pirate Booty Call episode and it was definitely Heather who first brought up the subject of Luann and the pirate, not Carole.

The first time was after she had just spoken to Luann and Luann told her that she brought her italian friends back to the house. Heather says, "I know Luann knows I know who she was with and it wasn't a group of Italians." "I wish she'd fill me in"

Then when Heather was alone outside with Carole she says, "Oh my God, so much happened last night. Luann came to my room at three in the morning with a man!" Carole laughs at this and later explained that she laughed because she was awoken by two french male voices, one was Luann's and the other was a young french man.

Heather, once again, tells us that it wasn't a group of Italians, but Thomas that Luann was with. Heather says, if Luann keeps perpetuating this italian story, she feels uncomfortable about it and it puts her in a bad position with the other girls and Jacques. She says, I know she was with Thomas and it's something that she can't let go of or lie about.

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

Episode 5 at Dorinda's event (SandwichGate)

 

Heather went up to Kristen and Josh

So I got to tell you something, sit down. So I went to dinner with Bethenny and I said to her that when I got to the birthday party and you guys weren't there, I just wanted her to know that your feelings were a little hurt and that's okay. So I was not making a big deal out of it at all. She made a big deal out of it. She put her head down like she was asleep and said this conversation is boring me. It pissed me off. I was like why are you being such a bitch. That in my life, when someone shows me their true colors, I believe them. So I'm not into getting to know her a little bit better. That's it, arm's length, I'm cool.

 

Meanwhile since that dinner with Bethenny/Dorinda/Heather/Carole...Bethenny and Heather did speak because Bethenny told her she went to Sonja's showroom. Heather went up to Sonja at this event earlier to ask Sonja about it.

 

Just from what came out of Heather's mouth at this event is not showing me she wants to be warm and fuzzy and connect with Bethenny.

Heather please return Joey Gorga's Mandana....the marbles are falling out his head

 

Is that the only thing Heather's done that is proof positive she doesn't like Bethenny? Because this doesn't cut it.

 

Heather didn't exaggerate about what transpired nor pretend she was okay with it. She told K/J exactly how it went down and added that she was pissed and that she's no longer going to try to get to know Bethenny etc. 

 

So what if she might have spoken to Bethenny before telling Kristen/Josh she was pissed. She didn't say she would never talk to her, she said she'd keep her at arm's length and if they talked about Sonja, then I am sure Bethenny was the one who reached out since she said she'd do just that. No matter how pissed off she was at her, Heather is not going to rudely snore in response to whatever Bethenny is telling her about Sonja.

 

Heather striking up conversations, or suggesting, albeit forcefully, an alternate dish for Bethenny during dinner  is not my idea of Heather trying to get to know Bethenny, it would be an innocuous exchange during a social gathering if Heather knew when to put a sock on it.  She should have stopped insisting but she wasn't doing anything evil nor was that something that should course a breakdown. 

[WireWrap]

Nope, I just watched the Pirate Booty Call episode and it was definitely Heather who first brought up the subject of Luann and the pirate, not Carole.

The first time was after she had just spoken to Luann and Luann told her that she brought her italian friends back to the house. Heather says, "I know Luann knows I know who she was with and it wasn't a group of Italians." "I wish she'd fill me in"

Then when Heather was alone outside with Carole she says, "Oh my God, so much happened last night. Luann came to my room at three in the morning with a man!" Carole laughs at this and later explained that she laughed because she was awoken by two french male voices, one was Luann's and the other was a young french man.

Heather, once again, tells us that it wasn't a group of Italians, but Thomas that Luann was with. Heather says, if Luann keeps perpetuating this italian story, she feels uncomfortable about it and it puts her in a bad position with the other girls and Jacques. She says, I know she was with Thomas and it's something that she can't let go of or lie about.

First, I would also mention it if someone walked into my room in the middle of the night with some strange man. LOL I would be pissed off big time. Second, I was talking about Sonja's romp, not LuAnn's romp. LOL

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

motorcitymom65 brings up a good point. Why is are we only seeing the interactions Bethenny reacts to negatively, most of which happens in her TH's I might add,  but not the ones that end well.

 

No wonder Heather is bewildered by Bethenny's behavior. Bethenny has no qualms calling Heather about Sonja (supposing she did) or using her makeup artist, in Heather's suite but god forbid Heather says their kids could have played together. 

 

Edited because, There is not the same as their.

Edited June 8, 2015 by Deputy Deputy CoS

[rissa]

First, I would also mention it if someone walked into my room in the middle of the night with some strange man. LOL I would be pissed off big time. Second, I was talking about Sonja's romp, not LuAnn's romp. LOL

Sorry, my bad!

[WireWrap]

Sorry, my bad!

LOL, no problem. It's hard to keep up with all these post! LOL The fact that both women had sex with Thomas is YUCK IMO anyway! LOL

[motorcitymom65]

motorcitymom65 brings up a good point. Why is are we only seeing the interactions Bethenny reacts to negatively, most of which happens in her TH's I might add,  but not the ones that end well.

 

No wonder Heather is bewildered by Bethenny's behavior. Bethenny has no qualms calling Heather about Sonja (supposing she did) or using her makeup artist, in Heather's suite but god forbid Heather says there kids could have played together.

This is one of the tricks of editing. Folks tend to think it is about just what people say and how the conversations can be manipulated, but editing is so much more than that.

The thing that is amazing to me is that we have had no "update" segments on Heather. In the first episode everyone got a small segment to either introduce them, or to update what/how they were doing (Sonja might not have on the first episode, but she had by the 2nd). Heather did not, and hasn't had one since. I am trying to remember this ever happening to a HW before and cannot think of a time. I know that many of us are being accused of using the editing excuse but I am really not trying to do that. I would be calling this out regardless of the HW because it is so unusual. My initial thought was that she had pissed off production or Andy, but if that were the case then why not demote her? Also she got a coveted slot on WWHL the second week of the season, which I would not think they would do it they were mad at her. She and Andy seemed to get along very well that night. For whatever reason, they seem to only want to show her irritating Beth in some manner, or being hostile towards her.

[jaync]

I'm not sure Heather lacks self awareness though; I just think she can't deal with it when she's evidently disliked by someone.

If that were true, then she wouldn't have dealt with Ramona in the way that she did during her first season.

 

I noticed that Dorinda was also "roasting" Peter a little at the dinner. Just sayin'.

 

Heather should really consider herself lucky.

Who's to say she doesn't?

 

C.  You guys, 20+ pages?  That's commitment.  or something.  Jesus.  lol!

Well, it was a good episode, hee. (Though, the regurgitation and belaboring of old shit, and the moaning over how others/fans think and post probably accounts for a page or two.)

[motorcitymom65]

If that were true, then she wouldn't have dealt with Ramona in the way that she did during her first season.

 

I noticed that Dorinda was also "roasting" Peter a little at the dinner.

I just said something similar in another thread about the Ramona deal. Hearher never backed down and she was the newbie on a show that at the time belonged to Ramona if it belonged to anyone. She had zero fear.

It's interesting because when I watched the show the first time I thought that the only one asking questions was Heather. The next time I watched it I was more listening than watching and I realized Dorinda was asking just about as many questions as Heather