One is the Loneliest Number: Unpopular GG Opinions

[katha]

The revival really drove home that Rory and Jess have grown up to be two people who have become totally incompatible to be anything other than friendly acquaintances, distant friends. I don't think that was inevitable, though the tendencies were always there. Jess has a core of steel and a certain harshness about him that just wouldn't mesh with Rory's current indecisive weakness at all, he'd try to hold himself back so as not to crush her, but that sort of constant hesitation and walking on eggshells is far from ideal for a romantic relationship. What's more, this was already present to some degree when they were teens. Jess was a tool who was still wrapped up in his own issues, so he was an inconsiderate boyfriend. Rory was her usual doormat self, as always around boyfriends (or, to be honest, anyone with a stronger, more forceful personality). The adult version of Jess would probably try to super careful with her, but I'd think she'd be a terrible partner for him and he'd grow frustrated and resigned with her. She'd grow resentful that he is too blunt and straightforward and dogmatic.

That Paris and Jess crackship idea is rooted in many viewers picking up on exactly this dynamic IMO. You have two forceful personalities who, at their worst, tend to bulldoze people into submission and who are also fiercely individualistic.

[hippielamb]

9 hours ago, lostandfound said:

<snip>

Lorelai/Christopher was clearly not a couple viewers are supposed to root for, for many reasons, including that Luke is the blue collar joyless grump while Christopher was born with money and likes to be happy, and AS-P consistently distrusts and dislikes everyone with money and all men who smile and show any cheerfulness, joy or charm.  

 

You said that much more eloquently than I ever could. Mainly, I just say, she looks so happy with Chris! *flaily arms* I agree with what you said about the revival portrayal too. 

What is that about, I wonder? Charming, affable guys are suspect in Amy's world. I can only imagine some smooth talker pissed her off once and now all good looking, fun guys are now supposedly "bad". And if he is wealthy, oh that's the kiss of death. She does have kind things to say about the actors who play them, so I suppose she does see their appeal, just that it's not right for the story she wanted to tell. Ah, well. Some of us like, even love the charmers of the world. 

 

8 hours ago, katha said:

The revival really drove home that Rory and Jess have grown up to be two people who have become totally incompatible to be anything other than friendly acquaintances, distant friends. I don't think that was inevitable, though the tendencies were always there. Jess has a core of steel and a certain harshness about him that just wouldn't mesh with Rory's current indecisive weakness at all, he'd try to hold himself back so as not to crush her, but that sort of constant hesitation and walking on eggshells is far from ideal for a romantic relationship. What's more, this was already present to some degree when they were teens. Jess was a tool who was still wrapped up in his own issues, so he was an inconsiderate boyfriend. Rory was her usual doormat self, as always around boyfriends (or, to be honest, anyone with a stronger, more forceful personality). The adult version of Jess would probably try to super careful with her, but I'd think she'd be a terrible partner for him and he'd grow frustrated and resigned with her. She'd grow resentful that he is too blunt and straightforward and dogmatic.

 

Agreed. Didn't the revival say it had been 4 years since they had seen each other? I think they will always be friends but not much else, despite what the mooning look in the revival wants us to think. 

Honestly I can't imagine Jess being comfortable in the upper class lifestyle and Rory's ease with it. I think they make great friends, and share the love of writing/reading. Rory has changed from when she was dating Jess, I'm not sure they would mesh so well in their current state. 

[dubbel zout]

12 hours ago, hippielamb said:

Mainly, I just say, she looks so happy with Chris!

I suspect that was LG and DS's real-life friendship coming through. She wasn't nearly as friendly with SP.

[elang4]

5 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

I suspect that was LG and DS's real-life friendship coming through. She wasn't nearly as friendly with SP.

I always hear this but I've seen no proof of her and Scott not getting on.

[lostandfound]

I know less than nothing about acting, but based on my "expertise" as a couch potato who watches way too much TV, I generally feel like professional actors should be able to act happy and in love around each other regardless of whether they get along behind the scenes. I have no idea whether LG and SP got along, but I know that their portrayal of their characters failed to sell me on Luke and Lorelai being in love with each other or even feeling romantically attracted. Chemistry is an ambiguous and difficult to define entity---some actors seem to naturally have it regardless of how much they like or dislike each other off camera while others seem to lack it, and some viewers see a couple as having a surprlus of chemistry while others see that same pair as having none at all. I personally see almost zero romantic chemistry between LG and SP even when the scene calls for it, but others will look at those same scenes and see the opposite. Even their most ovetly romantic scenes, like in Written in the Stars where AS-P let them actually touch and smile a little, make me cringe. They just seem so awkward to me, not in an endearing way but as if something about them is just pertually off, forced and incompatible. I agreed with Liz when she says in S7 that they just never seemed in sync, and I never agree with Liz about anything! 

Chemistry issues aside, AS-P didn't exactly help LG and SP out with her writing and directing. I agree that "be careful what you wish for, you clueless fans who know ever so much less than *I* do..." seems to be her guiding philosophy as a show runner, particularly when it comes to romance. I never wanted LL together but I know that most fans did, and so much of those later seasons come across like ASP wanting to prove to the majority of her loyal viewers that she had been justified in keeping LL apart for as long as she did. Even as someone who never really thought LL would work as a couple, the reality was worse than I expected. I have a few friends who shipped them through the end of the fourth season and were turned off to them completely even before April came along. 

I was looking at the episode list for game playing purposes and realized that while most series are usually better in their first few seasons than the last few, for me that's more true of GG than almost any other show. I still love the first 3-4 seasons more than almost any other show I've ever watched, but I'm at a point where I could happily agree never to see at least 95% of S5-S7 or the revival ever again. 

[Crs97]

Very UO, but I ended up shipping LL only because it seemed like Luke loved Lorelei.  I thought he deserved better.  I was Team Luke during all their break-ups.

[junienmomo]

17 minutes ago, lostandfound said:

Chemistry issues aside, AS-P didn't exactly help LG and SP out with her writing and directing. 

Without belaboring the point, I believe that this was the driving factor behind the on-screen lack of chemistry. It's been discussed before that even Lauren Graham commented on the lack of touching and affection, while the showrunners were known for directing down to that level. It's ridiculous, really, for showrunners to do that, and I'm a little embarrassed to recall how I kept watching, hoping for change. 

I wish there were a "ten thousand things I hate about the writers and showrunners" thread. Not really. It would just get me down.

[Guest]

32 minutes ago, junienmomo said:

 

I wish there were a "ten thousand things I hate about the writers and showrunners" thread. Not really. It would just get me down.

No lie; I've considered starting one. 

[Kohola3]

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 It's ridiculous, really, for showrunners to do that, and I'm a little embarrassed to recall how I kept watching, hoping for change. 

Even in the revival I had hope that there would be more physical interaction.  Sadly, ASP gave us nothing yet again.  She and Danny must have a completely sterile marriage.

[timimouse]

2 hours ago, lostandfound said:

I know less than nothing about acting, but based on my "expertise" as a couch potato who watches way too much TV, I generally feel like professional actors should be able to act happy and in love around each other regardless of whether they get along behind the scenes. 

Agreed 100%. When I read about Ryan Gosling and Rachel McAdams hating each other during the filming of 'The Notebook', I went from shocked to impressed because I would never have guessed that from their performances and that's how it SHOULD be. I'm not watching this show to know about your personal feelings towards each other, I'm watching for the fictional relationship. 

My UO is that Lorelei has been on her own for too long and doesn't know HOW to be in a relationship, and so all those guys should hightail it outta there, away from her selfish behind!

i still love her though :)

[lostandfound]

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My UO is that Lorelei has been on her own for too long and doesn't know HOW to be in a relationship

 Yes! I would have loved her to end the series choosing to be single and happy about it, but that's in violation of unwritten TV laws. Lorelai seems like a better and happier person while on her own and being single just suits the person she is, her particular strengths and flaws. I could see saying the same thing about Luke too.  

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i still love her though :)

I do too, and around here liking Lorelai seems like the most unpopular opinion of all! I especially enjoy her during the first four seasons of the series, but then no one was very likable for me during the second half of the series. Like others have said, I wouldn't necessarily want to interact with her much in real life, but I really enjoy her as a fictional character. Even when she's annoying, immature, selfish and other cringey things, she's just a really alive, vivid and interesting character. I'm one of the only people who always felt that underneath all the nonsense she's a truly well meaning kind person as well - kinder and more well meaning in most ways that matter than her more surfacely 'sweet' and well-behaved daughter, but that's a different tangent for another time! I'll even admit that I find aspects of Lorelai very relatable despite being more of a bookworm like Rory, but let's not even analyze what having a fair amount in common with Lorelai says about me. :-) One is that I ramble when anxious, excited, enthusiastic or just trying to connect, as you all can already tell! ASP did end up over emphasizing Lorelai's flaws at the expense of the more likable and admirable facets of her character, but I felt like she did that with almost every character! Nearly all the GG characters were awful to a degree, it just comes down to which ones we each happen to connect with or find entertaining and interesting anyway :-)

Edited April 11, 2017 by lostandfound

[dubbel zout]

4 hours ago, elang4 said:

I always hear this but I've seen no proof of her and Scott not getting on.

I don't think LG and SP hated each other—they just didn't click personally. But they were both professional enough to not let that affect the work. And to be fair, once I heard that LG and DS were such good friends IRL, it influenced how I saw Lorelei and Christopher.

[FictionLover]

4 hours ago, elang4 said:

I always hear this but I've seen no proof of her and Scott not getting on.

I see it in Lauren Graham's silence. While Scott always sings her praises and speaks openly about his fondness for Lauren, even that he had a crush on her, but she always stands mute. He would tweet about and to her during the filming of the revival without replys from her. It got me curious so I looked to see if they follow each other and only he follows her (but she follows David Sutcliff, Jason Ritter etc)She also tweets photos and sweet comments to her other co-stars (I'm not counting Peter) but I've never seen her tweet anything to him. Non-actions do speak volumes. I wonder if Scott going overboard with his praises was trying to make up for the past stressful relationship they had. But we will probably never know what really happened between those two.

[elang4]

1 hour ago, FictionLover said:

I see it in Lauren Graham's silence. While Scott always sings her praises and speaks openly about his fondness for Lauren, even that he had a crush on her, but she always stands mute. He would tweet about and to her during the filming of the revival without replys from her. It got me curious so I looked to see if they follow each other and only he follows her (but she follows David Sutcliff, Jason Ritter etc)She also tweets photos and sweet comments to her other co-stars (I'm not counting Peter) but I've never seen her tweet anything to him. Non-actions do speak volumes. I wonder if Scott going overboard with his praises was trying to make up for the past stressful relationship they had. But we will probably never know what really happened between those two.

But then you see things like in one of the revival interviews and Scott gets choked up talking about his dad and Lauren comforts him and puts his hand on his knee which was sweet.

[tarotx]

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TVG: So, how is your relationship with Scott?
Graham: It's fine. I think these characters have a great chemistry and that does mirror our chemistry as people. We're not intimates. We talk kind of how we talk [on the show]. We work well together.

TVG: But you're not best friends.
Graham: No. [Pause] It's a very happy set. It's a very functioning, working set, and I think some of that is helped by us having a little bit of a life outside. But I'm here an average of 50 hours a week, so there isn't a lot of socializing for any of us.

 

This is from a tv guide interview in 2005. I can't find the direct source but I know it's a real interview because I remember it. She talks about Christopher as well. How she thought it was wish-fulfillment at the time. The closest link I can find is

http://littlecornergg.blogspot.com/2005/04/april-2005-lauren-graham-dishes-girls.html

[Guest]

In her book, she sounded like they were friends, but not close. Of course, she also sounded like the musical was good so she's clearly lying/delusional.

[junienmomo]

One theory I've had for a while is the vindictiveness of the writers. 

 Any actor who isn't a big diva is going to do whatever he or she can to protect her job.  It couldn't have been a secret how immaturely the Paladinos behaved sometimes; all of season six for an example. If I were an actor who wanted to keep working, I would never have a bad word to say about potentially vindictive writers.  That seems to have been what happened during the original series. Any slightly controversial comments seem to have been softened like the Graham quote above. 

 It happened again as the revival developed. I don't recall ever seeing actors as they were interviewed about the revival, sucking up to the Paladinos as much as this crew did. Kathleen Wilhoite was apparently a non-example, and I  wouldn't be surprised if jealousy of McCarthy's success was part of the reason for the kerfuffle around Sookie. 

[Melancholy]

Man, here's probably a big one on this forum. I don't get why so many people are convinced ASP is a despicable monstrous asshole.  I've never seen such seething resentment to a show runner for a fan message board or to critique her writing choices by assuming she's actively malicious. Actually, I think that's a pretty good record that ASP only had a publicish fight with Kathleen Wilhoite among all of the actors that she worked with. And how many Bunheads and GG actors appeared on both shows. I think a lot of her interview quotes are blunt but ultimately funny and harmless. 

[lostandfound]

I know some people think Sookie's annoying, but I really love her. I think I forgot to list her as one of the characters I love most on another thread and am feeling guilty about overlooking one of my all time favorites! She gets more selfish and irritating later on, but so does almost every character, so it doesn't bother me as much. I love her friendship with Lorelai, especially during the first few seasons, and her relationship with Jackson is definitely one of my top two or three romances of the whole show. I love how she's got all these great attributes, loyal, funny, kindhearted, enthusiastic, helpful, supportive, a talented chef, but I also love how she can be tactless, scattered and emotionally clueless because it makes her a more interesting, entertaining character who's easy to relate to. Rory and Lorelai are emotionally clueless a lot too, about other people's emotions and their own, yet Sookie is a lot warmer and more lively than Rory and less vain and self-absorbed than Lorelai can be. 

I really love Jackson too, flaws and all. I will probably be the only GG fan ever who attempts to write a Sookie/Jackson fanfic :-)

Edited April 13, 2017 by lostandfound

[hippielamb]

On 4/11/2017 at 10:02 AM, dubbel zout said:

I suspect that was LG and DS's real-life friendship coming through. She wasn't nearly as friendly with SP.

That may be true but they could have been directed to tone it down. And the L & L scenes could have shown some joy. Amy seems to be saying that Lorelai's relationship with Chris was fun and chummy, due to their childhood beginnings, while Luke is her adult relationship. The problem is that it comes across as lacking in any happiness. For those of us who liked Lorelai with Chris, Jason, or even Max there were elements of playfulness in each relationship. With Luke it feels so heavy and lacking of that.

In the revival they seem settled, and I mostly accepted it due to how Luke fit in the girls lives now. And Lorelai seemed happy. It's not the giddy, flirtiness that I love when she's with Christopher but more being comfortable, I guess? She's my favourite character and I want her to be happy but damn if her life doesn't depress me a little. 

[ElleBee]

On 4/11/2017 at 11:25 AM, dubbel zout said:

And to be fair, once I heard that LG and DS were such good friends IRL, it influenced how I saw Lorelei and Christopher.

I just finished watching all 7 seasons (but not the revival). I never watched when it originally aired and knew nothing about the actors, show, etc., so I came into it cold. As soon as I finished, I came to the UO thread because I knew that I was supposed to be all squishy about Luke and Lorelei getting together at the end, but totally didn't feel it. They rarely seemed to have much chemistry and although he did a lot of nice things for her over the years, I had a hard time with his constant curmudgeonly-ness. She was exhausting with her energetic overdrive and he was exhausting with his perpetual glass-half-empty mope. So the whole final season, I was rooting for Lorelei and Christopher to stay together and be happy, but had a feeling that wasn't what I was going to get.

Anyway, that's my long-winded way of saying that you didn't have to know about LG & DS's RL friendship to feel like they were a better pairing. I didn't know anything about any of the actors, but IMO it was always pretty obvious that their on-screen chemistry was a lot stronger. 

[Frelling Tralk]

I agree, it sounds like Amy did make some rather strange choices when it come to how she wanted to portray Lorelai and Luke, season 5 always stood out to me especially because they just seemed sooo lacking in passion for a couple who had just only gotten together. But then again there's only so far you can go in blaming the lack of chemistry all on Amy, because they really didn't have much in season 7 either after Amy and Dan had left, their final kiss in the season 7 finale is bizarrely directed to me with how fast the camera cuts away from them.

They just didn't have much romantic or sexual chemistry imo, so I'm always surprised that it's such an unpopular opinion to not root for them. Even their wedding proposal came in the midst of an argument and horrible miscommunication, as did their first kiss. I understand the fans wishing that the revival could have given the two of them a bit more passion and happy moments together, but it wouldn't really have fit with how they have always been portrayed as a couple, Lauren just doesn't ever play it as Lorelai being giddily in love with Luke. Personally I think Lauren really overplays how subdued Lorelai gets after Luke snaps at her actually, she comes across to me like a little girl being scolded by her father and not knowing what to say, but I've no doubt that's another unpopular opinion! *g*

On 11/04/2017 at 7:34 PM, FictionLover said:

I see it in Lauren Graham's silence. While Scott always sings her praises and speaks openly about his fondness for Lauren, even that he had a crush on her, but she always stands mute. He would tweet about and to her during the filming of the revival without replys from her. It got me curious so I looked to see if they follow each other and only he follows her (but she follows David Sutcliff, Jason Ritter etc)She also tweets photos and sweet comments to her other co-stars (I'm not counting Peter) but I've never seen her tweet anything to him. Non-actions do speak volumes. I wonder if Scott going overboard with his praises was trying to make up for the past stressful relationship they had. 

I found it rather odd when Scott was recently gushing over how he would have liked to have dated Lauren, it felt like he was trying a bit too hard to convince us of the chemistry between Luke and Lorelai, he was really talking up how undeniable their chemistry supposedly is. It felt to me like a rather unprofessional way to talk about a colleague at times though, especially when Lauren has never really talked him up in return, and they don't seem to have that kind of flirty relationship with one another. For what it's worth other co-stars have had problems with him, Amy Pietz openly said that she would never want to repeat the experience of working with him http://screenertv.com/news-features/is-gilmore-girls-star-scott-patterson-horrible-to-work-with-amy-pietz-says-yes/ , so I get the feeling that there's something a bit off about the guy 

Edited April 17, 2017 by Frelling Tralk

[Crs97]

It's unprofessional to gush about how wonderful a co-star is, but perfectly okay to defame an actor by declaring you would never want to work with him again?  Hmmm.

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

33 minutes ago, Frelling Tralk said:

 

Personally I think Lauren really overplays how subdued Lorelai gets after Luke snaps at her actually, she comes across to me like a little girl being scolded by her father and not knowing what to say, but I've no doubt that's another unpopular opinion! *g*

 

I try not to get into the chemistry discussion because that is one of those things that is purely subjective.

Although I've never been invested in them as a couple, the above quote always made me uncomfortable about them as a couple. An example of the above observation is how above and beyond Lorelai went to make amends with Luke after the Wedding Bells Blues fiasco. Lorelai was not at fault and the way he acted toward her, you would think she, not Emily, set the whole thing up. She must have been of the same mind given how she begged his forgiveness. 

I also thought her taking to her  bed during their first breakup was over the top. I think that was when Rory came home to comfort her? Anyway, I didn't buy she loved Luke that much to be that heartbroken over their breakup. 

Fastforward to S6 when Rory had decided to accept Chris' offer to pay for Yale e. Lorelai *confesses* all of this to Luke and did so tentively. Like, my f'cking god, Luke is not your lord and master and this is no concern of his. But given how he's reacted when he perceived she stepped out of line, Lorelai's sensitive approach was understandable 

Edited April 17, 2017 by Deputy Deputy CoS

[Frelling Tralk]

12 minutes ago, Crs97 said:

It's unprofessional to gush about how wonderful a co-star is, but perfectly okay to defame an actor by declaring you would never want to work with him again?  Hmmm.

To me it's a little unprofessional yes, gushing comments about admiring your co-star as an actor are of course perfectly fine, I just meant when it come to talking about his attraction to her. The man doesn't seem to have much of a filter. To give one example, in his interview with Glamour he gave two thumb up when asked about Lauren, and joked about how his first response was 'uh-oh', and that we need to be careful not to blow up the show. Then he joked that she probably wasn't even interested, but that mattered little to him.

On one hand it's obviously just intended as light-hearted banter, but still it strikes me as being a bit awkward to joke so much about fancying your co-star, especially when every indication is that they aren't all that close as people. It's different if they're the kind of co-stars who are playful and tease one another, but Lauren has always stressed that it's only ever been a professional working relationship, so it makes me wonder if she felt weird about those comments when she was acting with him after that 

10 minutes ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

Although I've never been invested in them as a couple, the above quote always made me uncomfortable about them as a couple. An example of the above observation is how above and beyond Lorelai went to make amends with Luke after the Wedding Bells Blues fiasco. Lorelai was not at fault and the way he acted toward her, you would think she, not Emily, set the whole thing up. She must have been of the same mind given how she begged his forgiveness. 

Fastforward to S6 when Rory had decided to accept Chris' offer to pay for Luke. Lorelai *confesses* all of this to Luke and so tentively. Like my fuckinf god, Luke is not your lord and master and this is no concern of his. But given how he's reacted when he perceived she stepped out of line, Lorelai's sensitive approach was understandable 

Exactly, it was the same pattern in the revival too, Lorelai was immediately shrinking into her shell and making it very clear that okay she didn't want to talk about it any more after Luke snapped that he can take care of April. It shouldn't have been that big a deal as a discussion, and I'm not even sure that the writing meant for it to come across that way on the page. Really it was just Luke getting protective of his relationship with April, he wasn't actually mad at Lorelai, but Lauren plays it almost like Lorelai is scared to have a disagreement in case she gets yelled at or something. It's very noticeable because she just isn't like that with any other character 

[Melancholy]

35 minutes ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

 

Fastforward to S6 when Rory had decided to accept Chris' offer to pay for Yale e. Lorelai *confesses* all of this to Luke and did so tentively. Like, my f'cking god, Luke is not your lord and master and this is no concern of his. But given how he's reacted when he perceived she stepped out of line, Lorelai's sensitive approach was understandable 

No, it wasn't. There are entire universes of difference between knocking back tequila shots all night alone with an ex (and I'm sure flirting) and then lying about it to your SO versus your ex paying for his kid's education. The former is cause for breaking up, especially with Lorelai's other aggravating mistakes like shanghaing Luke at the vow renewal, inviting Chris to check her out right there, not giving Luke his requested space, arguing The Town Of It as an ultimate reason to get back together, making bullshit promises to cut out her parents or Chris that Luke knew was just more mendacity. 

Actually, I give Lorelai credit that she knows she screwed up in WBB (because my goodness- she screwed up in many ways) so she was being particularly sensitive to Luke on the Christopher issue. I also think that was partly behind her breakdown in Say Something. It was partly that she loved Luke (which I believe in 100%) but also because she knew she was wrong and made big mistakes in a relationship that had this whole inevitable aura about it from both their feelings and the town's commentary. And Lorelai was feeling particularly depressed because she was so angry at herself and feeling pessimistic about her ability to end up with anyone because she had quite a few failed relationships in the last 5 years.  It's actually one of my favorite Lorelai eps for that reason. 

Edited April 17, 2017 by Melancholy

[lostandfound]

Quote

Although I've never been invested in them as a couple, the above quote always made me uncomfortable about them as a couple. An example of the above observation is how above and beyond Lorelai went to make amends with Luke after the Wedding Bells Blues fiasco. Lorelai was not at fault and the way he acted toward her, you would think she, not Emily, set the whole thing up. She must have been of the same mind given how she begged his forgiveness. 

I don't think I've ever disliked Luke more, not even when he was withholding the news about April, which, while wrong and another indication of how slow he is at processing and how unbeliavbly  horrendous he is at communicating, at least was a legitimately big deal that he had understandably tangled emotions about. But flipping out and suddenly wanting totally out of his relationship with the woman he'd loved for years over a silly scheme cooked up by Emily and Christopher that Lorelai clearly had no part in? And without even allowing her to explain herself? Utterly bizarre and to me a major sign that he's not mature enough to be in a relationship. I remember wishing they'd never get back together after that fiasco. He was just so over the top, stomping out of the ceremony in the midst of one of his many tantrums and just leaving her there, giving her the silent treatment and icing her out over something that even someone of Luke's often limited insight could easily figure out was not even Lorelai's fault. I remember the friend I was watching with saying "I'd hate to see how he reacts over something that Lorelai really does do wrong."

Lorelai is known as the overly dramatic one, but Luke is such a juvenile drama queen when it comes to dealing with any kind of conflict. Even after Lorelai lashing out at him in Teach Me Tonight, an example of a time when she was in the wrong and did need to apologize, he punished her for literally months, ignoring her multiple attempts to apologize. I'm not a particularly forgiving person, and I would be angry at someone for that for maybe a a week or two at most, less if I kept in mind that they were extremely upset because their child had just been in a car accident. It's especially annoying when you consider that Luke is constantly snapping and losing his temper with everyone, always just assuming he'll be automatially forgiven despite never apologizing. I think I can add hypocritical to the list of reasons why I like him less than most GG fans do. 

Quote

 

She must have been of the same mind given how she begged his forgiveness. 

Fastforward to S6 when Rory had decided to accept Chris' offer to pay for Luke. Lorelai *confesses* all of this to Luke and so tentively. Like my fuckinf god, Luke is not your lord and master and this is no concern of his

 

This was often their dynamic, her subdued, a little depressed and insecure, worrying she's annoyed him and frantically apologizing for things that sometimes weren't even her fault while in between the occasionally kind and generous action, he grunts, scowls, conceals things, communicates nothing, and throws tantrums that are the kind of red flags that would have your loved ones worried about you dating him but within in the context of the show are supposed to be cute because ASP has a thing for moody, mercurial men. The more I rewatch and think about their relationship, the more I find it problematic and a total bummer to watch. 

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Even their wedding proposal came in the midst of an argument and horrible miscommunication, as did their first kiss.

Exactly! They're always annoyed with each other and can never communicate or understand each other, so I guess kudos to ASP for having their first kiss so accurately encapsulate that?! The proposal was indicative of how they seemed to want to be together because they didn't want to be alone. Lorelai had just lost Rory and wanted to ensure that she had a more permanent hold on one of the only other people she's close to. As soon as S6 started, they both acted like they were desperate to wriggle out of it, so it wasn't a surprise when the engagement fell apart.  

[Melancholy]

19 minutes ago, lostandfound said:

Even after Lorelai lashing out at him in Teach Me Tonight, an example of a time when she was in the wrong and did need to apologize, he punished her for literally months, ignoring her multiple attempts to apologize. I'm not a particularly forgiving person, and I would be angry at someone for that for maybe a a week or two at most, less if I kept in mind that they were extremely upset because their child had just been in a car accident. It's especially annoying when you consider that Luke is constantly snapping and losing his temper with everyone, always just assuming he'll be automatially forgiven despite never apologizing. I think I can add hypocritical to the list of reasons why I like him less than most GG fans do. 

I'll address the portion of your post which has specifics instead of general polemics. Your timeline is wrong. Lorelai went to the diner for the first time with much fanfare in the S2 finale after avoiding it since Teach Me Tonight. She didn't apologize in person but instead wrote some note that we didn't see. Then, she expected her very first interaction with Luke to be some banter fest of hearts and flowers instead of Luke just professionally and impersonally filling her order. Screw that. Who on earth can have a knock Down drag out "Go to hell! It's your fault that Rory is in the hospital. It was your obligation to not care for your own family if it could bring danger to Rory and Me" and then expect an uber-friendly interaction for the first face to face. ESPECIALLY, since the whole thing ran Jess out of town and Luke was still dealing with the sadness, guilt, emptiness, worry there. But of course, So Sorry Lorelai didn't even bother to care about that. Like she said, she "won" at running Jess out of town. 

Then, the series strongly implies that Lorelai didn't go back to the diner till the Mimi scene. And Luke forgave her then. After two in person interactions. Where Lorelai didn't even apologize or find common ground with Luke- it's just that Luke felt empathy for an unhappy Lorelai who was crying over Christopher. Who I know you like- but actually did just treat Lorelai horribly. And no doubt, Luke felt more at ease that Jess wasn't run out of town. I think Luke showed remarkable forebearance and empathy in that story. 

Edited April 17, 2017 by Melancholy

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

23 minutes ago, Melancholy said:

No, it wasn't. There are entire universes of difference between knocking back tequila shots all night alone with an ex (and I'm sure flirting) and then lying about it to your SO versus your ex paying for his kid's education. The former is cause for breaking up, especially with Lorelai's other aggravating mistakes like shanghaing Luke at the vow renewal, inviting Chris to check her out right there, not giving Luke his requested space, arguing The Town Of It as an ultimate reason to get back together, making bullshit promises to cut out her parents or Chris that Luke knew was just more mendacity. 

Actually, I give Lorelai credit that she knows she screwed up in WBB (because my goodness- she screwed up in many ways) so she was being particularly sensitive to Luke on the Christopher issue. I also think that was partly behind her breakdown in Say Something. It was partly that she loved Luke (which I believe in 100%) but also because she knew she was wrong and made big mistakes in a relationship that had this whole inevitable aura about it from both their feelings and the town's commentary. And Lorelai was feeling particularly depressed because she was so angry at herself and feeling pessimistic about her ability to end up with anyone because she had quite a few failed relationships in the last 5 years.  It's actually one of my favorite Lorelai eps for that reason. 

That is the thing she shouldn't have had to lie about the night she spent with Chris to begin with. They were/are friends in addition to co parents parents. Lorelai should be able to spend time with Chris and not feel like she has to lie about it.

So the question is, why did she lie? My answer to that is what , Frelling Tralk  originally stated: she walks on eggeshells around him and someone as independent and strong willed like Lorelai shouldn't be that way. Hell, Rory is the most non-confrontational character on the show and even she was not that tentative with any of her SO. 

[lostandfound]

Melancholy, thanks for the correction, though that detail doesn't change any of my viewpoints. Based on your posts, we just see Luke, Lorelai and their relationship radically differently and will never see eye to eye, but I know what it's like when someone criticizes a character you love and feel very invested in, so I'll just back out of this discussion and try to stick to other aspects of the show. Your view that Luke can do little wrong does still seem to be the popular one online, though less and less so. 

Awkward topic change: I was reading through the thread and really agree with the UO , or at least unpopular in general though not as unpopular here, that Rory should have eventually become an English teacher or a book editor. I've started writing fanfic again after a very long hiatus, or at least taking notes on what I want to write again, and the one thing all of my strange fic ideas have in common is that Rory is in one of those two professions rather than an investigative journalist! 

[Melancholy]

I do think Lorelai should be allowed to have clearly platonic friendly interactions with Christopher. Like eating lunch with him and Gigi at the Dragonfly. Which Luke was cool with just episodes before Tequila Night. Knocking back tequila shots all night alone together while flirting is far too compromising IMO for a woman in a committed relationship. And I don't think it's at all necessary to keep up a friendship. But Lorelai made a choice to spend time with Christopher that way. And then she made a choice to lie to Luke about it. I charge Lorelai with her choices which scream a lack of commitment to Luke because she still wants Christopher as a love interest even though she also wants a whole middle commited relationship with Luke. I'd charge her with her choices regardless but especially since Luke gave her a wide berth to be friends with Christopher just a few eps before. 

[Guest]

41 minutes ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

That is the thing she shouldn't have had to lie about the night she spent with Chris to begin with. They were/are friends in addition to co parents parents. Lorelai should be able to spend time with Chris and not feel like she has to lie about it.

So the question is, why did she lie? My answer to that is what , Frelling Tralk  originally stated: she walks on eggeshells around him and someone as independent and strong willed like Lorelai shouldn't be that way. Hell, Rory is the most non-confrontational character on the show and even she was not that tentative with any of her SO. 

I don't think you can necessarily point to that as a failing on Luke's part.  I think Lorelai overall sucked at relationships (romantic and non-romantic) when they got serious.  Throughout the series, the only deep relationships we saw her have that weren't highly dysfunctional were Sookie and maybe Lane.  I think she wanted to make her relationship with Luke work so badly that she was afraid of screwing it up - not that he did  something to make her so afraid.

[Frelling Tralk]

For me it's a big issue that Lorelai feels like she can't be completely herself around Luke, yes there were a lot of mistakes made with Max and Jason, but you never saw that same subdued Lorelai with them. Luke completely blew a gasket at a drunken Chris professing his love for Lorelai, even when she was stood there at the time telling Chris to shut up and go home, but still Luke storms out and it took him four episodes my god just to forgive Lorelai for her mother scheming with her ex-boyfriend. And this was after he declared himself to be all in. I'm sure that most guys would get pissed off in that situation, but with Christopher surely, not with Lorelai?

It was the same with the answer machine message, Luke should have been asking himself serious questions about why Lorelai would panic so much about his response to Chris calling her, and have a talk over never wanting her to be afraid of him. Instead he practically treats Lorelai like a criminal for trying to delete an answering machine message, and embarrasses her horribly in front of her friends, never seeming to consider that Lorelai only tried to delete the message because she was so terrified of his reaction. It was just sad by the point of season 6 when she's stepping on eggshells on the subject of her meeting with Christopher to discuss him paying for his daughters education.

Quote

Exactly! They're always annoyed with each other and can never communicate or understand each other, so I guess kudos to ASP for having their first kiss so accurately encapsulate that?! The proposal was indicative of how they seemed to want to be together because they didn't want to be alone. Lorelai had just lost Rory and wanted to ensure that she had a more permanent hold on one of the only other people she's close to. As soon as S6 started, they both acted like they were desperate to wriggle out of it, so it wasn't a surprise when the engagement fell apart.  

I was thinking of the proposal in the revival that comes in a scene where Luke is freaking out at thinking that Lorelai is going to leave him, obviously having picked up on how dissatisfied she has been with her life all year, and then it ends with Lorelai saying that actually she was thinking that they've waited too long to get married, but yes the season 5 proposal was even worse than that!  Both proposals are astonishingly unromantic when they both come from Lorelai questioning her life and being in a low place. I was half-wondering if they were even going to kiss each other after the season 5 proposal scene. This is probably nitpicking to an extreme, but usually there's a hug and a kiss the moment after a couple gets engaged, instead they spend most of the teaser of 6x01 worrying more about finding a bottle of champagne to celebrate with

[Guest]

I really think that's because she was never as committed to the Max or Jason relationships, but it's definitely something that could be either way.  I think the whole time she was dating Max or Jason, she had Luke in the back of her mind as a "what if."  And then when she was dating Luke, much of the time she kept Christopher as a "what if" in the back of her mind. 

[Melancholy]

I still think Luke had every right to storm out of the vow renewal. Luke was rightly upset with Lorelai for lying to him but he was asking her to talk about this. "I think we need to talk." Luke didn't break up with Lorelai there. Instead, he fled from a situation where I have to think the most ardent Luke haters can admit that Christopher was bullying him and Christopher and Emily were conspiring against him. Luke isn't under some obligation to stay through pictures or the cake to make sure Emily gets her Barbie Dream Vow Renewal anymore. And Lorelai, by lying to him and her other aggravating behavior, didn't deserve to continue to have Luke as an escort. But mostly, there was a ton of poison being flung at Luke and I think it's unfair to demand that he take more when Lorelai was lying to him. 

Then, Luke didn't explode at Lorelai. He just asked for some time to think about things. If lying about all night tequila shots with her baby daddy wasn't cause for breaking up, Lorelai not respecting Luke's request for space at all SOLELY because Lorelai wanted the peace of mind that they were still together would definitely be cause for breaking up. Add again that Lorelai was just adding more and more lies that she'd cut her parents and Christopher out. Further detonating her credibility. Just because Luke said he was all in, doesn't mean that he can't dump Lorelai for disrespecting him and lying to him repeatedly. The divorce courts are filled with people who said they were all in, but then rightfully divorced their partners. "All in" isn't a blank check. 

The phone call is greyer for me. I think Lorelai was absolutely wrong and Luke was absolutely right in the S5 breakup (except for Luke's "whole house of all alone space" which was mean). With the phone call, Luke shouldn't have gotten that angry. I do think he had the right to be suspicious and demand an explanation. But the simmering anger was too much. But then, I also think Lorelai really did lose Luke's trust on the Christopher issue and she hadn't earned it back. Because Lorelai really did like having Christopher as a romantic possibility, no matter who she was committed to. And that's intolerable for any man. I think it's entirely likely that Lorelai would have hidden the message again and she immediately ended the message when Luke walked in for that reason.  Plus, I don't really blame Luke for embarrassing Lorelai in front of Sookie and Jackson when Lorelai argued that she wanted to discuss this Right!Now when Luke argued it was rude to fight in front of company. And per S5, Lorelai sort of made her bed when she promised that she'd cut Christopher out of her life. It did become yet another empty promise that Lorelai shouldn't have made and wouldn't have made if she wasn't hustling Luke to get his signature on The Middle contract dotted line at Dozys so Lorelai could have her peace of mind in her relationship and town status, regardless of reality from her needs and Luke's feelings. 

[Frelling Tralk]

Having flirty all-nighters with an ex-boyfriend every now and again is absolutely not cool, but personally that particular night is not something that I've ever considered to be a dealbreaker and a clear example of Lorelai being in the wrong. Lorelai went over there to comfort Christopher after the death of his father, it was a complete one-off, and the drinking too much and crashing out only happened when she was trying to cheer him up. That was Lorelai's natural personality to be there for the people that she cared about, and she barely seemed to give it a second thought until Rory points out that Luke may not be cool with it, which to me indicates that there was no flirting or near kisses, it really was just about trying to put a smile on the face of a good friend who was dealing with a lot of conflicting emotions after the death of his father. Something that Lorelai could certainly relate too when she didn't have the warmest relationship with her own father, and she and Chris had grown up in similar circles. On that particular night I can understand why Lorelai was just focused on cheering Chris up, and never planned to get so drunk that she spend the night

Her choice to lie to Luke about what she had previously considered to be an innocent evening with a friend, and to then panic to even get a phone message from the guy, well honestly that says far more to me about her relationship with Luke then it does about her relationship with Christopher. It came across like an entirely innocent evening to me, and something that she should have very easily explained away at the time by saying that Christopher's father had just died and he was a wreck, so she stayed over to comfort him. Instead Lorelai had a knee jerk panic to Luke's jealousy every single time, which then caused her to lie and the whole thing becomes an even bigger deal than it ever needed to be 

And Luke had a right to ask for space to think, but equally Lorelai had a right to panic at him just walking out on her at the wedding, and want reassurance on where they stood. If someone walks out on you at an event and it's a really huge deal, then to me it's a bit of a power play to expect the other person to sit at home and wait for your call. Both people need to discuss where they stand after something like that, and it wouldn't have hurt Luke to first offer some reassurance about still loving Lorelai and this doesn't mean that they're breaking up, before saying that he needs time to think. Instead he wouldn't share any of his feelings with her, he basically left her in limbo. And then when she did push for more, he breaks up with her there and then

Edited April 17, 2017 by Frelling Tralk

[Melancholy]

I honestly can't picture a Lorelai/Chris conversation without flirting, from at least one of them. Until late S7 when they were both resigned that they weren't each other's future possibilities. Whether it's at Lorelai's bachelorette party or whether Rory's in the kitchen after her paternal grandfather just said she's a slut-mistake or whether actually, Lorelai is defusing the damage control that she lied to Luke about her drunken-all-nighter with Chris, Lorelai flirts with Chris. I find it impossible to believe that in the drunken all night of coming up with an alphabet to bash Straub, that they didn't flirt HARD. I mean, just the sultry way that Lorelai says "adult cookies" after brandishing the bottle was flirting to my ears.

I didn't see that Lorelai thought nothing of telling Luke until Rory lied. Here was the conversation:

LORELAI: Oh, we are so front row for that.
LUKE: Your eyes are red.
LORELAI: I had a bad night’s sleep last night.
LUKE: Oh, yeah? What happened?
LORELAI: Well –
RORY: Oh, I kept her up pretty late, you know, girl talk.
LUKE: Oh, okay. So what do you guys want to eat?
RORY: Well, she will have –
LORELAI: More coffee, that’s all I want.
LUKE: Okay, how about you Rory?
RORY: Yeah, I guess I’m fine with just coffee, too.
LUKE: Oh, you two are easy.
LORELAI: Spread that around, will you?
LUKE: Will do. [He leaves to get the coffee.]
RORY: What about your pancakes?
LORELAI: Pancakes are hangover food, it would get him suspicious.
 

Right way, Lorelai wasn't straight forward by saying she had a bad night sleep. We don't know what's in her "Well" when Luke asked her specifically why she slept poorly. Then after Luke left, Lorelai was already showing that she was planning deception down to her breakfast choices. I see no indication that Lorelai thought her Tequila Night was uncontroversial until Rory said it was. However, what I do see, is Lorelai being shady about it and then, out and out lying about it. 

I also don't believe Lorelai was entitled to additional reassurance. By Luke not breaking up but instead saying that he wants time to think about things, Lorelai is aware of the facts. They're not broken up yet but Luke may choose to break-up after he's considered things. It would be dishonest of Luke to start promising things like they're not going to break-up when that was still on the table for Luke. If Luke continued that holding pattern for days, I'd say Luke was being unfair and leaving Lorelai in the lurch. However, it had just been the night of and part of the morning after. Lorelai gave him no time to honestly sit through and think about his needs.

[Taryn74]

This is always going to be one of those situations where people's opinion about the character(s) is going to influence their viewpoint of the scenes.  I, personally, have never seen Lorelai walking on eggshells around Luke because she's afraid of his reaction (i.e. anger) but definitely because she doesn't want to screw up their relationship.

 

1 hour ago, Frelling Tralk said:

Luke completely blew a gasket at a drunken Chris professing his love for Lorelai, even when she was stood there at the time telling Chris to shut up and go home, 

This may be splitting hairs, but the only thing Lorelai said while Luke was still in the room was "Chris, don't" and "Luke, I don't know what he's talking about" while Chris was going on about how everyone knows they belong together and it's not too late for them to be together.  Not exactly heaps of reassurance, there.

[Frelling Tralk]

13 minutes ago, Taryn74 said:

This is always going to be one of those situations where people's opinion about the character(s) is going to influence their viewpoint of the scenes.  I, personally, have never seen Lorelai walking on eggshells around Luke because she's afraid of his reaction (i.e. anger) but definitely because she doesn't want to screw up their relationship.

But then that to me comes back to how Luke has overreacted in the past, imo that's what led to Lorelai acting incredibly subdued and nervous whenever Luke snaps at her, there's a real sense of her fearing putting a foot wrong around Luke. For example how quickly she shuts down in the revival after Luke snaps that he's got it in response to Lorelai saying that April should be paying for herself by now. Now in that particular scene I actually take Luke's side, but if Lorelai has a differing opinion then why not talk about it and don't be afraid to have a disagreement, instead she seemed to immediately shut down and gave very short and panicky ('okay') responses in her desperation to avoid a fight. To me that's just not a healthy way to react around your long term partner

[FictionLover]

6 hours ago, Frelling Tralk said:

I found it rather odd when Scott was recently gushing over how he would have liked to have dated Lauren, it felt like he was trying a bit too hard to convince us of the chemistry between Luke and Lorelai, he was really talking up how undeniable their chemistry supposedly is. It felt to me like a rather unprofessional way to talk about a colleague at times though, especially when Lauren has never really talked him up in return, and they don't seem to have that kind of flirty relationship with one another. For what it's worth other co-stars have had problems with him, Amy Pietz openly said that she would never want to repeat the experience of working with him http://screenertv.com/news-features/is-gilmore-girls-star-scott-patterson-horrible-to-work-with-amy-pietz-says-yes/ , so I get the feeling that there's something a bit off about the guy 

 I also found his comments and gushing to be weird and also contradictory to past comments he had made. I think it was his first interview on Gilmore Guys Podcast he was asked if they ever dated. He said no and that he was in a serious relationship with someone during the series.  None of this crush stuff he goes on about now (I wonder how his wife feels when she hears it).  He carried on about "intense adult scenes" with Lauren too, which never happens.  I think he wants to keep the fans happy and says what he thinks they want to hear.  He started a band and is the lead singer. If you heard him sing, you would know that there is something a bit off!  He can play the guitar but lord, the first time a bit came on twitter, I got embarrassed for the guy!

Edited April 18, 2017 by FictionLover

[shron17]

17 hours ago, Frelling Tralk said:

For example how quickly she shuts down in the revival after Luke snaps that he's got it in response to Lorelai saying that April should be paying for herself by now. Now in that particular scene I actually take Luke's side, but if Lorelai has a differing opinion then why not talk about it and don't be afraid to have a disagreement, instead she seemed to immediately shut down and gave very short and panicky ('okay') responses in her desperation to avoid a fight. To me that's just not a healthy way to react around your long term partner

Luke didn't snap at Lorelai until she started going on about how expensive that would be and how much he'd already paid for April's education, things that in my opinion weren't any of her business.  We never see Luke weigh in on how much Lorelai spends on Rory.  I don't think expressing opinions on your partner's daughter's expenses without being asked is healthy either, and Luke was clearly irritated from the moment she brought it up.  If Lorelai genuinely wanted to help, she could have just said that sounds expensive, you know I'm always willing to help if you ever need it.  

17 hours ago, Taryn74 said:

I, personally, have never seen Lorelai walking on eggshells around Luke because she's afraid of his reaction (i.e. anger) but definitely because she doesn't want to screw up their relationship.

I agree.  And the stakes were always higher because Luke was such a big part of her and Rory's life together and a good friend.

18 hours ago, Frelling Tralk said:

Her choice to lie to Luke about what she had previously considered to be an innocent evening with a friend, and to then panic to even get a phone message from the guy, well honestly that says far more to me about her relationship with Luke then it does about her relationship with Christopher.

To me it says Lorelai was keeping her life as Christopher's ex and friend separate from her relationship with Luke.  Why else would she respond to Christopher's call for help with Gigi and then invite him for lunch without mentioning it to her current boyfriend?  Keep in mind only a few years earlier Lorelai was sobbing to Luke about losing Christopher to have a baby with another woman.  Yet when she and Luke are dating and she finds out Chris is single again she"forgets" to mention it until after the fact.  Most people would feel threatened by that.

19 hours ago, Frelling Tralk said:

For me it's a big issue that Lorelai feels like she can't be completely herself around Luke, yes there were a lot of mistakes made with Max and Jason, but you never saw that same subdued Lorelai with them.

See, I always thought Luke was the only one Lorelai could be her adult self around, probably because of their years of friendship.  With Max and others she seemed to put on a flirty "girlfriend" personality and with Christopher she often acted like a teenager.  As far as Lorelai being subdued, that's situational and was likely often because the stakes were higher with Luke than her other relationships.  One could also theorize that Lorelai felt more comfortable showing Luke her real feelings than the others she dated.  And in early season 6 she had a very good reason to feel sad and act subdued that had nothing at all to do with Luke.

Edited April 18, 2017 by shron17

[junienmomo]

From the moment of Lorelai's silent reaction to Luke's "all in" comment, I wondered if she was all in. It was rapidly proven that she was not all in when she didn't tell him about Christopher. I felt that she was dating Luke in the first part of S5, and it was only when Emily caused the Christopher / Luke meltdown that Lorelai realized that her perfect world depending on everyone buying into her notion of her middle.

It's also at this point that I began to question the notion that she was a strong independent woman. No way was she that in her romantic relationships, which I believe was a deliberate statement by the writers. In her professional life, sure, even though she was more overtly sexual in some of her business dealings than I feel is appropriate for a strong independent woman.

I shook my head at later statements by ASP that she would have preferred Lorelai to not be in a relationship at the end of the series. I believe her strong independent woman persona was cited as the reason. Personally I think it was more she was the toxic girlfriend type. 

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

On 4/17/2017 at 4:08 PM, deaja said:

I don't think you can necessarily point to that as a failing on Luke's part.  I think Lorelai overall sucked at relationships (romantic and non-romantic) when they got serious.  Throughout the series, the only deep relationships we saw her have that weren't highly dysfunctional were Sookie and maybe Lane.  I think she wanted to make her relationship with Luke work so badly that she was afraid of screwing it up - not that he did  something to make her so afraid.

Lorelai's behavior is not on Luke. It' be unfair to put that on him. 

There are a myriad of reasons why she reacts to him the way she does.  

My point is that, the fact that she feels she must conduct herself in a certain way, that I don't feel fits the character,  when it comes to Luke makes me uncomfortable about the relationship.

[junienmomo]

2 hours ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

My point is that, the fact that she feels she must conduct herself in a certain way, that I don't feel fits the character,  when it comes to Luke makes me uncomfortable about the relationship.

She did that for all her major romantic relationships. For Max she was creepily the hot student, for Jason the sex bomb, for Christopher the eternal sixteen year old girlfriend, heck even for Alex she was a fisher woman.

With Luke, she was thrown off her game, because not only was he more in her life than the others, but thanks to Emily's machinations and Luke already being in Rory's life all of her compartments collapsed in on each other. That overwhelmed her. Which role should she play that always gave her the out she needed?

[Taryn74]

36 minutes ago, junienmomo said:

For Max she was creepily the hot student

Exactly the reason I never liked Max.  Even if he wasn't her teenaged daughter's teacher, playing along with Lorelai's student/teacher fantasy game would have been inappropriate, but him being Rory's teacher put it on the level of just flat out disturbing.  I seriously want to gag during the "Is this my extra credit work? 'Cause Mitzi just had to take a test!" scene.  Ew ew ew.

[andromeda331]

My UO I didn't think Lorelai not telling Luke about lunch with Christopher or have Tequila night with Christopher as bad things or even that big deal. The first one lunch with Lorelai when asked if she told Luke, Lorelai looked confused as it didn't occur to her she would need too. Christopher's never really been around when Lorelai was dating someone so it she's never had to consider that she might need to inform her boyfriend she was having lunch with Rory's dad until it was brought up.   The Tequila night only happened because Christopher's dad died and Lorelai went to go cheer him up. It wasn't a clandestine affair to be hidden. It was something that came up last minute and Luke lost his own father so he probably would have understood Lorelai telling him Christopher's father died and she went to check on him. She could have called before she headed to Christopher's or even the morning after. There was nothing that happened in either of these two occasions that needed to be a secret.

Speaking of Christopher's father's death. I really hate that Richard and Emily "sent" something. After the way he treated Lorelai and Rory in Christopher Returns. Rory in particular, that was the only time he met her and was horrible to her. Why would you send anything because he died?  

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

They did because of Christopher.  It had nothing to do with Straub himself 

[Anela]

I didn't think that Lorelai's reaction to Luke breaking up with her, was over the top. After Max broke up with her, Rory found her on her bed, upset. Luke: he was one of her best friends, she was happy with him (seemingly, at the time), although she seemed to spontaneously propose, because he was the only person who had her back, when it came to being opposed to Rory dropping out of college. He wasn't just a guy she'd known for a few months, or someone she'd known in school years before.

[Viqutorious]

I h a t e d the sobbing break up phone message she left Luke.

The Way we Were is one of my favorite movies and that was stolen directly from it.  It was lazy, poorly written and was a ridiculous  overreaction by Lorelai.  

ASP forced that in the script; Luke is no Hubble!

[timimouse]

7 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

My UO I didn't think Lorelai not telling Luke about lunch with Christopher or have Tequila night with Christopher as bad things or even that big deal. The first one lunch with Lorelai when asked if she told Luke, Lorelai looked confused as it didn't occur to her she would need too. Christopher's never really been around when Lorelai was dating someone so it she's never had to consider that she might need to inform her boyfriend she was having lunch with Rory's dad until it was brought up.   The Tequila night only happened because Christopher's dad died and Lorelai went to go cheer him up. It wasn't a clandestine affair to be hidden. It was something that came up last minute and Luke lost his own father so he probably would have understood Lorelai telling him Christopher's father died and she went to check on him. She could have called before she headed to Christopher's or even the morning after. There was nothing that happened in either of these two occasions that needed to be a secret.

Speaking of Christopher's father's death. I really hate that Richard and Emily "sent" something. After the way he treated Lorelai and Rory in Christopher Returns. Rory in particular, that was the only time he met her and was horrible to her. Why would you send anything because he died?  

I think that's why it became a big deal... because she hid it. When she was in the dinner the next morning, nursing her hangover, there was absolutely no need for Rory to jump in with the lie. She could've said, then and there, that Chris' dad died and she went over there last night with a bottle of tequila, that they finished. By unnecessarily hiding it, you plant that seed of doubt when you hurriedly tell him at your parents vow renewal ceremony. I actually blame that whole thing on Rory because Lorelai was going to tell him and she butted in. It would've looked suspicious if she tried to change the story after that.