One is the Loneliest Number: Unpopular GG Opinions

[chessiegal]

7 hours ago, Bruni said:

I'm another that thinks Luke & Lorelai never really worked as a couple. I don't feel the supposed chemistry. They also lacked communication skills. It was painful to watch at times, the arguing and then sulking/not talking. I don't know if Jason was the guy for the long haul, but he and Lorelai seemed suited to each other in many ways.

Maybe  lack of chemistry between Luke and Lorelai had to do with the rumored lack of chemistry between Scott Patterson and Lauren Graham.

[peacheslatour]

19 hours ago, chessiegal said:

Maybe  lack of chemistry between Luke and Lorelai had to do with the rumored lack of chemistry between Scott Patterson and Lauren Graham.

Really? Do tell.

[chessiegal]

2 hours ago, peacheslatour said:

Really? Do tell.

Just something I read somewhere. Evidently Lauren and David Sutcliffe "clicked" when they met, in a way that didn't happen with Scott.

[peacheslatour]

12 minutes ago, chessiegal said:

Just something I read somewhere. Evidently Lauren and David Sutcliffe "clicked" when they met, in a way that didn't happen with Scott.

Huh, Well that sure doesn't come across on screen. 

[Gam2]

I also have read about the lack of chemistry between Lorelei and Luke. I don’t believe that because I’ve also read that they loved acting together. I don’t think that they could have acted the way they did all of those years without there being some attraction. I thought they were an adorable couple on GG. Much better than Lor and Chris. He was never right for her.

[chessiegal]

22 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

Huh, Well that sure doesn't come across on screen. 

I agree - and since they are actors, it shouldn't. Of course, in interviews, they have nothing but nice things to say about one another.

[peacheslatour]

16 hours ago, chessiegal said:

I agree - and since they are actors, it shouldn't. Of course, in interviews, they have nothing but nice things to say about one another.

Yeah but I've seen that with soap actors and we know enough behind the scenes stuff about them to know it's bullshit. I'm sorry if that seems harsh, probably colored by my absolute hatred of all things Christopher.

Edited February 14, 2020 by peacheslatour

[Katy M]

14 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

Yeah but I've seen that with soap actors and we know enough behind the scenes stuff about them to know it's bullshit. I'm sorry if that seems harsh, probably colored by my absolute hatred of all things Christopher.

Now, I'm confused. I thought we were talking about Lauren Graham and Scott Patterson (possibly) not getting along.  What would your hatred of Christopher have to do with that?

[Crs97]

I’ve always heard rumors that Scott and Lauren didn’t get along, more on Lauren’s side.  The rumors seem to come from forums in which a poster would say they have a friend of a friend who worked on the set and who said something about it.  Scott has always vehemently dismissed it, saying he loves her like a sister.  Lauren has denied it, but not quite as strongly.  I think one of her comments was something like “OMG, we cannot kill this rumor,” which some said was not acrually a denial.  I think I believe the official stance, which is they are professional colleagues who get along fine on set but don’t socialize outside of the show.

[Katy M]

8 minutes ago, Crs97 said:

I think I believe the official stance, which is they are professional colleagues who get along fine on set but don’t socialize outside of the show.

Which is fine. I don't know why everybody (and I don't mean you, and I don't literally mean everybody) thinks that actors on a show all have to be best friends.  They're co-workers.  We've all had co-workers that were good friends, acquaintances, people we tolerated, and those that we want to behead.  As long as we don't actually follow through on the beheading, it's all good.

[clack]

I can see Luke being sexually attracted to Lorelai. She's exciting, he's a bit stick-in-the-mud. Long-term, though, she'd get on his last nerve.

Lorelai's attraction to Luke, though, doesn't seem sexual. He's too unadventurous for her. He would make, however, a good steady, responsible life partner -- but more so as a companion and friend than as an exciting lover.

Though maybe she already has had enough excitement in her life?

[peacheslatour]

13 minutes ago, clack said:

I can see Luke being sexually attracted to Lorelai. She's exciting, he's a bit stick-in-the-mud. Long-term, though, she'd get on his last nerve.

Lorelai's attraction to Luke, though, doesn't seem sexual. He's too unadventurous for her. He would make, however, a good steady, responsible life partner -- but more so as a companion and friend than as an exciting lover.

Though maybe she already has had enough excitement in her life?

I can see Luke being a very good lover. A little vanilla maybe but we have no reason think Lorelai is into kink. He would be gentle, caring and unselfish. And let's face it, they're not teenagers any more. Their experimenting days are long behind them. I'm sure by now Lorelai knows exactly what she likes and Luke seems like he would be more than happy to bring it.

[clack]

Don't mean Luke is bad in bed. I mean "lover" in the romantic sense.  After the first season, he's written as rigid, bad-tempered, and with no interests outside of the Red Sox, fishing, and the Outer Limits.

What would evenings at home with Luke be like? And you know that they would be at home-- Luke is not popping down to Manhattan with Lorelai for a Broadway show.

Edited February 18, 2020 by clack

[peacheslatour]

Huh? The Outer Limits?

[Kohola3]

24 minutes ago, clack said:

What would evenings at home with Luke be like? And you know that they would be at home-- Luke is not popping down to Manhattan with Lorelai for a Broadway show.

Well, in all fairness, we didn't see Lorelai popping down to Manhattan either.

Luke seemed willing to accommodate her wishes when it meant a lot to her like attending her nasty parents' vow renewal and Rory's 21st birthday.  I think that would likely be the MO - she'd make the decisions and he'd go along with them right up to having the sausages pulled out of him.  

[Crs97]

Even when she ordered him to take a camping trip, he came back early and said he liked spending time with her regardless of what they did.  

[peacheslatour]

2 minutes ago, Crs97 said:

Even when she ordered him to take a camping trip, he came back early and said he liked spending time with her regardless of what they did.  

And he's handy. I can see them planning projects like they did with her remodel and painting the diner. I wish my husband was as willing to tear out walls and build beautiful things like the Chuppah he built her. He was also willing to indulge her weirdness. He was up for anything she wanted to do even if he did grumble a bit, he went along with it. I mean Lorelai wasn't some sophisticate who gave a shit about high culture. FFS, her favorite movie was Hardbodies.

[mamadrama]

It's probably not an unpopular opinion but I never bought Rory as an international journalist or foreign correspondent. Aside from some of the problems I have with her journalistic skills (IMO she wasn't pushy enough or ask interesting questions and she could be really awkward) she and Lor were so damn hypocritical and judgmental. No way could I buy her roughing it with the Red Cross in a war zone, going to tiny places where modern amenities were scarce, traversing through poverty ridden villages in Africa, build rapport with with people quickly, etc. As a journalist one should be able to be somewhat objective and I never saw that. Like when she wrote that piece about the party Logan took her to. She was incredibly bad with self-awareness. She and Lorelei tried to come across as regular, non-snobby, salt of the earth folks (we like junk food! We eat at Denny's on our road trip! We like funny, bad movies! We like cheap plastic bracelets instead of fine jewelry! We stay in youth hostels!* We have whimsical home decor!), but they were crazily judgmental about those who didn't share their likes/beliefs. I've done a ton of traveling abroad and you have to really keep an open mind to appreciate, and to begin to understand, other cultures. 

Rory as an author, as someone who would work quietly on their own, makes more sense to me.

* regarding the hostels in Europe...In one episode they claim to dislike B&B's because they "forced interaction." As someone who has stayed in probably hundreds of hostels (I used to write for Rough Guides and Go Europe) I feel confident in saying that few things force interaction than hostels in Europe. In fact, even when I wasn't on the job I still liked staying in them because as a solo female traveler I sometimes got lonely-even though I am a bit of a loner myself.

[andromeda331]

2 hours ago, mamadrama said:

It's probably not an unpopular opinion but I never bought Rory as an international journalist or foreign correspondent. Aside from some of the problems I have with her journalistic skills (IMO she wasn't pushy enough or ask interesting questions and she could be really awkward) she and Lor were so damn hypocritical and judgmental. No way could I buy her roughing it with the Red Cross in a war zone, going to tiny places where modern amenities were scarce, traversing through poverty ridden villages in Africa, build rapport with with people quickly, etc. As a journalist one should be able to be somewhat objective and I never saw that. Like when she wrote that piece about the party Logan took her to. She was incredibly bad with self-awareness. She and Lorelei tried to come across as regular, non-snobby, salt of the earth folks (we like junk food! We eat at Denny's on our road trip! We like funny, bad movies! We like cheap plastic bracelets instead of fine jewelry! We stay in youth hostels!* We have whimsical home decor!), but they were crazily judgmental about those who didn't share their likes/beliefs. I've done a ton of traveling abroad and you have to really keep an open mind to appreciate, and to begin to understand, other cultures. 

Rory as an author, as someone who would work quietly on their own, makes more sense to me.

* regarding the hostels in Europe...In one episode they claim to dislike B&B's because they "forced interaction." As someone who has stayed in probably hundreds of hostels (I used to write for Rough Guides and Go Europe) I feel confident in saying that few things force interaction than hostels in Europe. In fact, even when I wasn't on the job I still liked staying in them because as a solo female traveler I sometimes got lonely-even though I am a bit of a loner myself.

Its definitely not an unpopular opinion. Most here would agree with you. Rory wasn't cut out to be a journalist. She had zero drive to go out and find a story, I have a hard time imagining her interviewing anyone as a journalist, and there's no way Rory could handle a war zone. We've seen Rory badly interviewing people. Most agreed with Mitchum when he told Rory she didn't have it. She's good at research, probably would be good as an author, or maybe organizing events. 

[junienmomo]

15 hours ago, peacheslatour said:

He was also willing to indulge her weirdness. He was up for anything she wanted to do even if he did grumble a bit, he went along with it. I mean Lorelai wasn't some sophisticate who gave a shit about high culture. FFS, her favorite movie was Hardbodies.

Lorelai and Luke were actually very sensitively written for each other, except for the stupid plot points to create drama or the authors flipping their noses at the producers.

Luke loved Stars Hollow and its life in spite of his obstreperous behavior. He was a truth-teller, calling out absurdities, but he cared for individuals privately. Lorelai loved her chosen home. She appreciated the family feeling and enthusiastically participated in activities.

Lorelai stated that she wanted a partner, someone who would have her back and be there for her. Jason was his career and society. He didn’t think twice about sacrificing others for his goals. Christopher was the eternal playmate. Neither of them were there for her the way she wanted.

Luke wanted love, acceptance and a family (a wife for sure, kids after a discussion). Think “not gonna make you eat French food.” Lorelai was his perfect foil, bringing him out of his grumpy shell and having his back as well as challenging him.

If they hadn’t been written with the communication skills of 14 year olds, it could have been awesome.

 

[Taryn74]

2 hours ago, junienmomo said:

Lorelai and Luke were actually very sensitively written for each other, except for the stupid plot points to create drama or the authors flipping their noses at the producers.

ALL of this.

[mamadrama]

6 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

Its definitely not an unpopular opinion. Most here would agree with you. Rory wasn't cut out to be a journalist. She had zero drive to go out and find a story, I have a hard time imagining her interviewing anyone as a journalist, and there's no way Rory could handle a war zone. We've seen Rory badly interviewing people. Most agreed with Mitchum when he told Rory she didn't have it. She's good at research, probably would be good as an author, or maybe organizing events. 

And what Mitchum said to her really wasn't even that bad. She could have used that criticism to help her improve her game. I'm doing a complete series rewatch again and it always strikes me at how often Rory just folds under pressure. As a special snowflake in Stars Hollow she has the world by the tail, but in most every other situation she struggles. Paris, on the other hand, is ballsy. 

[Katy M]

26 minutes ago, mamadrama said:

And what Mitchum said to her really wasn't even that bad. She could have used that criticism to help her improve her game. I'm doing a complete series rewatch again and it always strikes me at how often Rory just folds under pressure. As a special snowflake in Stars Hollow she has the world by the tail, but in most every other situation she struggles. Paris, on the other hand, is ballsy. 

I agree.  Mitchum's main criticism was that she wasn't proactive.  She only did what was specifically asked of her.  She could have decided to do two things with that.  1. Said to herself, "OK, I'm young, it was my first internship, I made a mistake.  I'll know better for next time and I'll start being more aggressive." Or 2. That's not really my personality.  My strength has always been being able to do what I'm told in a competent manner.  Maybe I should look into career paths where this is a valuable asset and maybe that also combines my passions of reading and writing.  

Either one of those strategies would have been fine.  Rory has the added luxury of coming from money, so if she chose the first option and it still didnt' work out for her, she could go back to school to get another degree in something else.

But, what does Rory do?  She throws a temper tantrum.  I wouldn't have even minded a mild tantrum had she followed it up with the previous strategies.  Everyone's allowed to get upset (as long as they keep it legal) when they realize that their lifelong dream might not work out.

At my high school, we were required to take one of those career placement tests.  I wonder if she ever did that.  I got janitor and bus driver, which I wasn't too pleased about because I couldn't even get my regular license until I was 20.  I think it was lack of hand-to-eye coordination or something.  And I didn't really picture myself as a janitor, so I ignored mine.  But, it might have been interesting to see if she would have gotten some of the suggestions that we've been making on this site.

[peacheslatour]

8 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

Its definitely not an unpopular opinion. Most here would agree with you. Rory wasn't cut out to be a journalist. She had zero drive to go out and find a story, I have a hard time imagining her interviewing anyone as a journalist, and there's no way Rory could handle a war zone. We've seen Rory badly interviewing people. Most agreed with Mitchum when he told Rory she didn't have it. She's good at research, probably would be good as an author, or maybe organizing events. 

She's afraid of horses and childbirth. Remember when Sookie went into labor and she couldn't run away from her fast enough. And when Sherrie was having GG she went crying to her mother to come and deal because she was so freaked out. Can you imagine her in a third world country with the dirt and disease? She needed to be a Society person's assistant or maybe a writer for a Lifestyles magazine.

[andromeda331]

4 hours ago, mamadrama said:

And what Mitchum said to her really wasn't even that bad. She could have used that criticism to help her improve her game. I'm doing a complete series rewatch again and it always strikes me at how often Rory just folds under pressure. As a special snowflake in Stars Hollow she has the world by the tail, but in most every other situation she struggles. Paris, on the other hand, is ballsy. 

 

4 hours ago, Katy M said:

I agree.  Mitchum's main criticism was that she wasn't proactive.  She only did what was specifically asked of her.  She could have decided to do two things with that.  1. Said to herself, "OK, I'm young, it was my first internship, I made a mistake.  I'll know better for next time and I'll start being more aggressive." Or 2. That's not really my personality.  My strength has always been being able to do what I'm told in a competent manner.  Maybe I should look into career paths where this is a valuable asset and maybe that also combines my passions of reading and writing.  

Either one of those strategies would have been fine.  Rory has the added luxury of coming from money, so if she chose the first option and it still didnt' work out for her, she could go back to school to get another degree in something else.

But, what does Rory do?  She throws a temper tantrum.  I wouldn't have even minded a mild tantrum had she followed it up with the previous strategies.  Everyone's allowed to get upset (as long as they keep it legal) when they realize that their lifelong dream might not work out.

At my high school, we were required to take one of those career placement tests.  I wonder if she ever did that.  I got janitor and bus driver, which I wasn't too pleased about because I couldn't even get my regular license until I was 20.  I think it was lack of hand-to-eye coordination or something.  And I didn't really picture myself as a janitor, so I ignored mine.  But, it might have been interesting to see if she would have gotten some of the suggestions that we've been making on this site.

A mild one would have made sense. Even being mad for a few days made sense or even take the summer. But Rory's reaction was to drop out of Yale. Lorelai offered her suggestions to stay in college and explore different degrees which really isn't a bad idea. Lots of people get to college absolutely certain their going to be one thing only to find out its not going to work out, it does fit or get interested in something else. Nothing they showed us of Rory shows us she could be the journalist out there covering wars, diseases or politicians. Mitchum actually was pretty nice when he gave her the critique and he explained why he thought that. He gave an example and all she could say was she didn't know she was suppose to say something. Which okay yes is a mistake. Rory could have taken the criticism and learned from it. She could have decided to do better and really tried or realized it wasn't her calling. But the thing is Rory always has to be told she has to do more and always seems surprised by it. Somehow she thinks all she needs to do as a journalist is to be handed assignments and that's it. That its just like school she's given an assignment, does a little research and that's it. Stay in her little bubble and not have to do anything. She never even bothers to go out for internships until one falls in her lap. It never occurred to her to do so. Even after that call with Lorelai about how she was behind the beginning of season five everyone else had internships and stuff. She then does nothing. Dropping out of Yale was dumb but then she doesn't do anything. She just lounges around and gets drunk with Logan. She doesn't even look for a job despite claiming she needs to get one. Emily hands that to her too. She doesn't explore any different career paths, jobs, volunteering or anything. 

2 hours ago, peacheslatour said:

She's afraid of horses and childbirth. Remember when Sookie went into labor and she couldn't run away from her fast enough. And when Sherrie was having GG she went crying to her mother to come and deal because she was so freaked out. Can you imagine her in a third world country with the dirt and disease? She needed to be a Society person's assistant or maybe a writer for a Lifestyles magazine.

Yes, she couldn't handle Sookie in labor or even touching her belly, or Sherrie when she was in labor. But sure Rory's going to handle being in Syria or Iraq as bombs and guns are going off. I can't even imagine her on campaign trail for Obama shouting questions or interviewing him. Can you imagine Rory asking him hard questions? In a group of reporters asking questions? No Rory would just keep her head and hand down and write down notes. If by some chance she was given the chance Rory would fold. It was a nice job to dream about but Rory doesn't have it. They make it so clear she doesn't have and she should have realized it at Yale and found something else. 

[mamadrama]

On 2/19/2020 at 4:54 PM, andromeda331 said:

 

A mild one would have made sense. Even being mad for a few days made sense or even take the summer. But Rory's reaction was to drop out of Yale. Lorelai offered her suggestions to stay in college and explore different degrees which really isn't a bad idea. Lots of people get to college absolutely certain their going to be one thing only to find out its not going to work out, it does fit or get interested in something else. Nothing they showed us of Rory shows us she could be the journalist out there covering wars, diseases or politicians. Mitchum actually was pretty nice when he gave her the critique and he explained why he thought that. He gave an example and all she could say was she didn't know she was suppose to say something. Which okay yes is a mistake. Rory could have taken the criticism and learned from it. She could have decided to do better and really tried or realized it wasn't her calling. But the thing is Rory always has to be told she has to do more and always seems surprised by it. Somehow she thinks all she needs to do as a journalist is to be handed assignments and that's it. That its just like school she's given an assignment, does a little research and that's it. Stay in her little bubble and not have to do anything. She never even bothers to go out for internships until one falls in her lap. It never occurred to her to do so. Even after that call with Lorelai about how she was behind the beginning of season five everyone else had internships and stuff. She then does nothing. Dropping out of Yale was dumb but then she doesn't do anything. She just lounges around and gets drunk with Logan. She doesn't even look for a job despite claiming she needs to get one. Emily hands that to her too. She doesn't explore any different career paths, jobs, volunteering or anything. 

Yes, she couldn't handle Sookie in labor or even touching her belly, or Sherrie when she was in labor. But sure Rory's going to handle being in Syria or Iraq as bombs and guns are going off. I can't even imagine her on campaign trail for Obama shouting questions or interviewing him. Can you imagine Rory asking him hard questions? In a group of reporters asking questions? No Rory would just keep her head and hand down and write down notes. If by some chance she was given the chance Rory would fold. It was a nice job to dream about but Rory doesn't have it. They make it so clear she doesn't have and she should have realized it at Yale and found something else. 

You're right-she does exactly what's expected of her and nothing more. She did a (supposedly)great job writing about the repaving of Chilton's parking lot, but that assignment was handed to her. When Doyle asked her for some feature ideas, the ones she gave him were all boring. She only wrote about the LDB because the girl in the gorilla mask happened upon her in the bathroom. And then in the revival she couldn't think of a single thing to offer SandeeSays. As a journalist, isn't being able to think on your feet and looking for good angles kind of a given? She couldn't even come up with a good angle for the crazy society lady's book. 

But, then again, she never really HAD to try very hard at anything. The damn town practically threw her a parade on her way out. In high school she hadn't joined any clubs or volunteered or any of that stuff because she just assumed that she'd get in without them (and why Paris was rejected over Rory is one of my biggest peeves). 

[chessiegal]

47 minutes ago, mamadrama said:

and why Paris was rejected over Rory is one of my biggest peeves). 

I thought the show made it crystal clear why Paris didn't get into Harvard, if that's what you're referring to. When Rory goes to visit Paris who stopped going to Chilton because of her Harvard rejection, Paris plays her the tape of her Harvard interview, where Paris was her usual over the top intense self. They both know why Harvard rejected Paris. Rory does her best to get Paris off the shelf and back to school.

[andromeda331]

32 minutes ago, mamadrama said:

You're right-she does exactly what's expected of her and nothing more. She did a (supposedly)great job writing about the repaving of Chilton's parking lot, but that assignment was handed to her. When Doyle asked her for some feature ideas, the ones she gave him were all boring. She only wrote about the LDB because the girl in the gorilla mask happened upon her in the bathroom. And then in the revival she couldn't think of a single thing to offer SandeeSays. As a journalist, isn't being able to think on your feet and looking for good angles kind of a given? She couldn't even come up with a good angle for the crazy society lady's book. 

It is. Journalists generally have a ton of ideas for stories. Rory never really had any ideas. Even when she was doing that boring illegal music downloading everyone agreed it was boring and Paris asked if she was going to do anything different with it or had an angle which Rory clearly didn't. It didn't even seem to occur to her to have that. Journalists are out there constantly looking for new stories, sources and scoops. Constantly trying to get the better stories. Rory never does that. 

Quote

But, then again, she never really HAD to try very hard at anything. The damn town practically threw her a parade on her way out. In high school she hadn't joined any clubs or volunteered or any of that stuff because she just assumed that she'd get in without them (and why Paris was rejected over Rory is one of my biggest peeves). 

Very true. That is half the problem half of the reason Rory doesn't think she has to do anything because she's never really had to. She writes something and everyone loves it and praises her. She gets handed almost everything she wants and with little effort. 

But there's also a part of Rory that won't do anything. For all her admiring Harvard she never once bothered to find out what she has to do to get in there. In all the brochures she never bothered to check out what the requirements were? She can do research for an article but not for getting into the college she's dreamed of? Then when Rory is told she needs to do more she doesn't. She finds out in the second season she needs to do more. But then doesn't do anything. She joins the newspaper but she was planning on doing that anyways. She joins nothing else. And turns down Paris's offer to be her vice president until Paris brings up Harvard.  She doesn't think about trying to win to speak on CSPAN until Paris says something which Lorelai points out that someone who wants to be foreign correspondent should take any opportunity she can to practice speaking in public. But that's Rory she never takes any opportunity to practice or do anything she'll need to for the job she wants. In college Rory has to be told again by Paris they she has to do more but she doesn't. She never does any internships at newspapers or magazines. She never considered going out for editor of the YDN not that it mattered she got it anyways. Pretty much everyone except Rory does what they have to try and work hard to make their dreams happen. Lorelai worked her way up at the inn from maid to manager, went to night classes to get a degree and opened her own inn with Sookie. pretty much every activity Paris did was to try and get into Harvard. She had a long list of extra curricular activities she did over the years, went after the religion beat and fired up every religious person she met, campaigned hard for editor of YDN. Lane figured out her dream of being a drum, bought drums, and secretly joined a band. She pushed as hard she could to get that to happen. Mrs. Kim helped when she was giving up with the crazy Christian tour. Richard works hard. Even Emily works hard with all her committees and various things for Richard's job. But Rory doesn't and she won't. She doesn't have the get up and go. Even when she's told she has to do more. She won't.

[Crs97]

4 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

But Rory doesn't and she won't. She doesn't have the get up and go. Even when she's told she has to do more. She won't.

I agree, and upon further reflection that sounds an awful lot like Christopher traits to me.

[mamadrama]

6 hours ago, chessiegal said:

I thought the show made it crystal clear why Paris didn't get into Harvard, if that's what you're referring to. When Rory goes to visit Paris who stopped going to Chilton because of her Harvard rejection, Paris plays her the tape of her Harvard interview, where Paris was her usual over the top intense self. They both know why Harvard rejected Paris. Rory does her best to get Paris off the shelf and back to school.

Well, yeah, I understand this. My understanding does not stop the fact from annoying me. The two don't have to be mutually exclusive. 

[Katy M]

I have to disagree with the stance that she never had to try very hard at anything.  When she first started Chilton she practically flunked out.  She had to work hard to catch up.  And from a social point of view, she wasn't fitting in at all.    She did not have an easy time of it that first year in Chilton

[mamadrama]

8 hours ago, Katy M said:

I have to disagree with the stance that she never had to try very hard at anything.  When she first started Chilton she practically flunked out.  She had to work hard to catch up.  And from a social point of view, she wasn't fitting in at all.    She did not have an easy time of it that first year in Chilton

I really feel like that first season of her at Chilton showed a different Rory in many ways, though. I actually liked her then-her studiousness, her weirdness, her awkwardness...Rory walking around with 3 books in her purse, eating lunch alone, not wanting to be late, not liking the silliness of the sorority....As the seasons went on, though, something changed. S1 Rory and S6 or S5 or any other season feel like different people to me, and not in the way that characters (or people IRL) naturally change over time anyway. I can't compare them.

[Katy M]

24 minutes ago, mamadrama said:

I really feel like that first season of her at Chilton showed a different Rory in many ways, though. I actually liked her then-her studiousness, her weirdness, her awkwardness...Rory walking around with 3 books in her purse, eating lunch alone, not wanting to be late, not liking the silliness of the sorority....As the seasons went on, though, something changed. S1 Rory and S6 or S5 or any other season feel like different people to me, and not in the way that characters (or people IRL) naturally change over time anyway. I can't compare them.

Me, too.  I love high school Rory.  I hate Yale Rory.

[peacheslatour]

23 minutes ago, mamadrama said:

I really feel like that first season of her at Chilton showed a different Rory in many ways, though. I actually liked her then-her studiousness, her weirdness, her awkwardness...Rory walking around with 3 books in her purse, eating lunch alone, not wanting to be late, not liking the silliness of the sorority....As the seasons went on, though, something changed. S1 Rory and S6 or S5 or any other season feel like different people to me, and not in the way that characters (or people IRL) naturally change over time anyway. I can't compare them.

It seemed to me to change when she fell in with the Puffs. Was that still first season?

[andromeda331]

37 minutes ago, mamadrama said:

I really feel like that first season of her at Chilton showed a different Rory in many ways, though. I actually liked her then-her studiousness, her weirdness, her awkwardness...Rory walking around with 3 books in her purse, eating lunch alone, not wanting to be late, not liking the silliness of the sorority....As the seasons went on, though, something changed. S1 Rory and S6 or S5 or any other season feel like different people to me, and not in the way that characters (or people IRL) naturally change over time anyway. I can't compare them.

 

13 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Me, too.  I love high school Rory.  I hate Yale Rory.

So do I. High school Rory was great. She loved school, her mom, to read and hanging out with Lane. She did work hard in the first season to catch up at Chilton and she did and ended the season in the top percentage area.  When Paris gave her the wrong time for the Franklin (to be fair Rory should have asked the teacher) Rory made up for it the next time by being really early and when Paris gave her a crappy assignment she turned it around into a moving piece. That Rory I could kind of see going places and working hard. Probably not a journalist in war zones and other places but she had more potential then later Rory. After the fight in Rory's Dance Rory tries to talk to Emily at the Christmas party about Lorelai. When Jess crashed the car Rory was upset that no one blamed her for the accident. She even tried to apologize to Taylor about his sign but he didn't blame her. She cared about people, she had empathy. But all that disappeared. She became a selfish, self-centered spoiled brat, with no empathy, no work ethic, folded any time anyone criticized her and couldn't handle anything or do anything, and takes zero responsibility for anything she does, refusing to break up with Dean when she likes Jess, cheats with Dean, then falls for someone else while still dating Dean. She just gets worse.

[clack]

Yale Rory was all set-up, no payoff.

She goes from high school star to average college student. Interesting potential arc, but it never really goes anywhere.

Then she falls in with the Puffs -- the privileged world of her grandparents, in opposition to the working class world of her upbringing. Which one will she chose? Or maybe she'll find a third way, involving intellectual pursuits?

We keep waiting for her to become disillusioned with Logan's crowd. This potential disillusionment seems to be carefully set-up, but it just peters out. 

[chessiegal]

9 hours ago, clack said:

hen she falls in with the Puffs -

I thought after that disastrous initiation prank she gave up on the Puffs.

[Katy M]

19 minutes ago, chessiegal said:

I thought after that disastrous initiation prank she gave up on the Puffs.

yes, we never hear about them after that. I didn't love that episode as it annoyed me that Headmaster Charlston (or whatever his name was) was apparently going to let her slide (and nobody else) because she was given a push to get involved. I don't really blame her for succumbing to peer pressure.  But, she could have refused to enter the school and since she didn't should have received the same punishment as the rest of the girls.  Actually, more punishment for already Puffs, half-punishment or the new inductees.

[marineg]

On 2/23/2020 at 4:59 PM, clack said:

Then she falls in with the Puffs -- the privileged world of her grandparents, in opposition to the working class world of her upbringing. Which one will she chose? Or maybe she'll find a third way, involving intellectual pursuits?

We keep waiting for her to become disillusioned with Logan's crowd. This potential disillusionment seems to be carefully set-up, but it just peters out. 

I think you mean The Life Or Death Brigade. That's Logan's group. The Puffs were only in that one episode in her high school.

[Taryn74]

Something was in my FB memories tonight that prompted me to make this post. I chose this thread because I'm one of the only ones who feels truly uncomfortable and alarmed by the way Early!Dean is portrayed, but seeing the memory on FB reminded me of why I always feel that way about Dean and I just wanted to share because it is SO important not to brush off red flag behavior.

Four years ago my daughter's boyfriend flew into a jealous rage over a text message he misunderstood and he came close to.......well, physically hurting her at the least. She was 17 years old and he was her first boyfriend, so she ignored the signs of his overly jealous temper tantrums, not knowing it wasn't normal. She was over at his house one evening and his grandparent were next door at a neighbor's house. Boyfriend grabbed her phone and saw where she was texting with one of her besties about a TV guy they thought was cute. He didn't realize it wasn't even a real person they were talking about. He got mad, threw a bookcase and some other furniture at her, broke her phone (thankfully not before she was able to send a cryptic message to her friend, who contacted me because she thought it was odd) and then took a handful of his grandmother's sleeping pills trying to kill himself. My daughter was able to get out of the house at that point and went to the neighbor's house and called the police. When I couldn't get ahold of her after her friend contacted me, I called my husband who was at a Scout meeting and told him something felt wrong and to get over to the boyfriend's house right away. Thank God he got there after the police did or he'd probably be in jail right now. He never told me all the specifics, he would only say "it was bad". Our oldest son had to witness the aftermath of all of this as well since he was with hubby at Scouts when I called him. It affects his relationship with his sister and other girls to this day, even though he doesn't like to talk about it.

So, I guess my point is just that Early!Dean's jealousy and tendency to bully and intimidate Rory any time he doesn't like what she was doing isn't normal, it isn't cute, it isn't romantic, and teenage girls need to realize this because real life isn't television, and behaviors don't always change and problems don't always just go away in order to move the plot along. Do your daughters, your sisters, your friends a favor and make sure they know this.

[junienmomo]

4 hours ago, Taryn74 said:

Something was in my FB memories tonight that prompted me to make this post. I chose this thread because I'm one of the only ones who feels truly uncomfortable and alarmed by the way Early!Dean is portrayed, but seeing the memory on FB reminded me of why I always feel that way about Dean and I just wanted to share because it is SO important not to brush off red flag behavior.

Four years ago my daughter's boyfriend flew into a jealous rage over a text message he misunderstood and he came close to.......well, physically hurting her at the least. She was 17 years old and he was her first boyfriend, so she ignored the signs of his overly jealous temper tantrums, not knowing it wasn't normal. She was over at his house one evening and his grandparent were next door at a neighbor's house. Boyfriend grabbed her phone and saw where she was texting with one of her besties about a TV guy they thought was cute. He didn't realize it wasn't even a real person they were talking about. He got mad, threw a bookcase and some other furniture at her, broke her phone (thankfully not before she was able to send a cryptic message to her friend, who contacted me because she thought it was odd) and then took a handful of his grandmother's sleeping pills trying to kill himself. My daughter was able to get out of the house at that point and went to the neighbor's house and called the police. When I couldn't get ahold of her after her friend contacted me, I called my husband who was at a Scout meeting and told him something felt wrong and to get over to the boyfriend's house right away. Thank God he got there after the police did or he'd probably be in jail right now. He never told me all the specifics, he would only say "it was bad". Our oldest son had to witness the aftermath of all of this as well since he was with hubby at Scouts when I called him. It affects his relationship with his sister and other girls to this day, even though he doesn't like to talk about it.

So, I guess my point is just that Early!Dean's jealousy and tendency to bully and intimidate Rory any time he doesn't like what she was doing isn't normal, it isn't cute, it isn't romantic, and teenage girls need to realize this because real life isn't television, and behaviors don't always change and problems don't always just go away in order to move the plot along. Do your daughters, your sisters, your friends a favor and make sure they know this.

There was something not consistent with the Palladino’s objective of a funny light comedy that had too many men being irrationally violent and multiple references to infamous murderers. I like dark humor, but this was weird.

[marineg]

Honestly, if they had said at some point that Dean was meant to be a bad first boyfriend it would have explained so much in the story:
- why Rory fell for Jess and was afraid to break up with Dean
- why he was possessive and jealous all the time
- why he behaved well around parents but bad around Rory
- why he was visibly jealous of Christopher hanging out with Rory before he knew he was her dad
- why he got married so early to an 18yo who had no plans for her life outside of her marriage (not dissing poor Lindsay)
- why he cheated on his wife but made her feel bad about picking up her husband's phone in the middle of the night
- why he lied to Rory about leaving Lindsay even if Rory had never sent the letter
- why he got aggressive with Luke when he was dating Lorelai
- why he constantly wanted to fight with Jess and get between him and Rory
- why Rory put up with Jess and Logan's bad behavior and at the same time felt like they were overly great for doing basic boyfriend things
- etc.

The story would have been so much better if it actively depicted a bad boyfriend and the rest of Rory's story would have been nuanced and reasonable if Dean was meant to be bad. But it wasn't the case...

Edited March 12, 2020 by marineg

[Taryn74]

24 minutes ago, marineg said:

Honestly, if they had said at some point that Dean was meant to be a bad first boyfriend it would have explained so much in the story:

YES. YES. YES. Oh dear G-d so much YES.

Instead, ASP (via Lorelai, Lane, etc) fawned over Dean and acted like he was the perfect first boyfriend while Jess was the spawn of Satan. I honestly felt bad for Jared P. at the panel they did shortly before the revival because he was such a sweet person and so different than his character.

[KatWay]

I feel like Dean gets a bad rep with people analysing the show cause they really shifted his character around a LOT depending on what they needed him to be. Jess and Logan had more cohesive character arcs and felt like they were meant to have their own agenda, their own personality. Not to say they didn't also sometimes have wtf moments of inconsistency, but overall they felt like fully fleshed out people. Dean for the most part never had that. We knew practically nothing about his family, his hobbies, his dreams. If he mentioned any, it got changed soon enough. Early S1 Dean was almost edgy, the city guy coming to the small town, reading books, leather jacket, then suddenly he was the safe, nice small town boy and couldn't keep up with Rory. Dean marrying some girl from his school seemed to come out of nowhere. Not even going to college? We never got the impression that's what Dean was all about (he would have been obviously ill suited with Rory from the start in that case).

He had his asshole moments, the jealousy, the possessiveness etc but certainly no more than the other guys on the show. He was just kind of there, for the most part, the safe choice to contrast with the more interesting bad boys competing for Rory's affections (Tristan, Jess, Logan - they literally brought him back just to get dumped for the bad boy type AGAIN).

I don't actually think he did anything wrong in the Dean/Rory/Jess triangle aside from not breaking up with Rory much earlier...he was remarkably composed for having some guy being extremely rude to his face and obviously trying to hit on his girlfriend, while said girlfriend didn't even try to dissuade him. If he really was that jealous controlling psycho some fans paint him as, he would have had a different reaction than just being some mix between insecure, resigned and mopy about it.

Edited March 14, 2020 by KatWay

[Katy M]

3 hours ago, KatWay said:

I don't actually think he did anything wrong in the Dean/Rory/Jess triangle aside from not breaking up with Rory much earlier...he was remarkably composed for having some guy being extremely rude to his face and obviously trying to hit on his girlfriend, while said girlfriend didn't even try to dissuade him. If he really was that jealous controlling psycho some fans paint him as, he would have had a different reaction than just being some mix between insecure, resigned and mopy about it.

I agree.  The only two guys that Dean was jealous of were Tristan and Jess.  He obviously had reason in both cases, especially Jess.  He never tried to forbid Rory to see either of them.  Yeah, he complained that Rory got thrown together with Tristan a lot, but an actual controlling jealous boyfriend would have done a lot more than that.

[andromeda331]

8 hours ago, KatWay said:

I feel like Dean gets a bad rep with people analysing the show cause they really shifted his character around a LOT depending on what they needed him to be. Jess and Logan had more cohesive character arcs and felt like they were meant to have their own agenda, their own personality. Not to say they didn't also sometimes have wtf moments of inconsistency, but overall they felt like fully fleshed out people. Dean for the most part never had that. We knew practically nothing about his family, his hobbies, his dreams. If he mentioned any, it got changed soon enough. Early S1 Dean was almost edgy, the city guy coming to the small town, reading books, leather jacket, then suddenly he was the safe, nice small town boy and couldn't keep up with Rory. Dean marrying some girl from his school seemed to come out of nowhere. Not even going to college? We never got the impression that's what Dean was all about (he would have been obviously ill suited with Rory from the start in that case).

He had his asshole moments, the jealousy, the possessiveness etc but certainly no more than the other guys on the show. He was just kind of there, for the most part, the safe choice to contrast with the more interesting bad boys competing for Rory's affections (Tristan, Jess, Logan - they literally brought him back just to get dumped for the bad boy type AGAIN).

I don't actually think he did anything wrong in the Dean/Rory/Jess triangle aside from not breaking up with Rory much earlier...he was remarkably composed for having some guy being extremely rude to his face and obviously trying to hit on his girlfriend, while said girlfriend didn't even try to dissuade him. If he really was that jealous controlling psycho some fans paint him as, he would have had a different reaction than just being some mix between insecure, resigned and mopy about it.

Excellent post! Your exactly right. Dean started out "bad" boy but that all disappeared. He did read. He even recommended Hunter Thompson to Rory. Lorelai even predicted he would end up with motorcycle and he did by the time Christopher showed up in Christopher Returns. That all disappeared. He wasn't fleshed out like the other two. Clara had no idea who Rory was despite them dating for three months which makes no sense. Rory never once went over to their house? They turned him into a good and safe small town boyfriend in season one. I wonder if they already knew Jess was coming by that point and moved in that direction. But it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't either.   

Except for not breaking up with Rory sooner I don't think he did anything wrong in the triangle. Jess was messing with him and trying to steal his girlfriend and Rory wasn't saying anything and didn't even get upset when Jess told her he bid on her basket to get her alone and to make Dean mad. She knew she liked Jess. She was showing every sign in the world that she was into Jess. Wanting Lorelai and Jess to get along, running off to NYC on Lorelai's graduation, kissing Jess at Sookie's wedding, jealous of Shane, even when Lorelai calls her on that one and Rory makes her "list" and decides to stay with Dean (which is stupid just because the guy has been great to you doesn't mean you should stay with him when your clearly no longer interested) but then continues to be jealous of Shane and Jess. She forces Dean to break up with her because she will not do it. And even asks like she doesn't know why when he does despite how awful she had been during the dance-thon. As much as I hate Jess in the triangle I hate Rory the most in it. She treated Dean like crap. Worse of all she learns nothing from it. 

[slf]

I don't think they changed Dean at all. He was only a "Bad Boy" in Rory's world and season one Rory was about as buttoned-down as it got. They were pretty consistent with his character. Dean was never portrayed as a classic Bad Boy, like Jess was. A lot of that hype was just Lorelai's fears which were pretty quickly disproven; he was always respectful of Lorelai and other adults, if he acted smart and someone got serious with him he was quick to change his behavior, he was quick to get a job and always attended school, wasn't into fighting with other guys, was loyal to Rory, etc. He was shown to adapt over time to the small town life and as early as the fifth or sixth episode of season one it was made clear he had "traditional" values. As far as his intelligence is concerned he was never shown to be gifted or even especially well-read. (Hunter Thompson isn't advanced and lots of people read him in high school.) ASP struggles with writing normal people because she wants almost every character in her show to be quick-witted and capable of making obscure references no matter their personality, age, education level, etc. So while Dean has the typical ASP sense of humor he isn't the sort of character for whom intellect is considered, rightly or not, a defining trait. And like Rory he didn't get better with age.

[andromeda331]

2 minutes ago, slf said:

I don't think they changed Dean at all. He was only a "Bad Boy" in Rory's world and season one Rory was about as buttoned-down as it got. They were pretty consistent with his character. Dean was never portrayed as a classic Bad Boy, like Jess was. A lot of that hype was just Lorelai's fears which were pretty quickly disproven; he was always respectful of Lorelai and other adults, if he acted smart and someone got serious with him he was quick to change his behavior, he was quick to get a job and always attended school, wasn't into fighting with other guys, was loyal to Rory, etc. He was shown to adapt over time to the small town life and as early as the fifth or sixth episode of season one it was made clear he had "traditional" values. As far as his intelligence is concerned he was never shown to be gifted or even especially well-read. (Hunter Thompson isn't advanced and lots of people read him in high school.) ASP struggles with writing normal people because she wants almost every character in her show to be quick-witted and capable of making obscure references no matter their personality, age, education level, etc. So while Dean has the typical ASP sense of humor he isn't the sort of character for whom intellect is considered, rightly or not, a defining trait. And like Rory he didn't get better with age.

Your probably right. Although I do think being able to build a car at sixteen or seventeen from the ground up is incredible and pretty talented. That kind of skill he should have gone on to work at one of the car companies. One thing I really do hate is they do give us that good scene at the end of season three when Rory shows Dean the catalog to pick out a present for his wedding. It was a really good scene. She's going off to Yale, he's going of to Connecticut State and getting married. They both seemed pretty happy. I wish they had kept that. ASP has this horrible habit to about keep bringing back characters long after it makes any sense. She really didn't need to bring Dean back after season three. 

[Taryn74]

My daughter's boyfriend was always incredibly respectful to my husband and me, and he treated her very well (jumped out of the car to open the door for her, helped his grandmother make homemade cookies and other gifts for her, stuff like that). They dated for almost a year, too. Literally the only 'red flags' were that he came from a troubled home (which was why he lived with his grandparents by the time they were dating) and that he was overly clingy, possessive, and easily became jealous. ALL traits that we saw Dean display, except that he came from a stable home. Just saying.

Look, I don't mean to imply that ASP intended for Dean to be some borderline abusive boyfriend, because I think in her mind he really was supposed to be the perfect first boyfriend (because I think her mind is a somewhat twisted place when it comes to relationships, LOL) but there were some red flags in his behavior that stand out to me in retrospect, that in a real world situation not driven by dramady plot, could have grave consequences. That's the only reason I made the post that I did.

[peacheslatour]

2 hours ago, Taryn74 said:

My daughter's boyfriend was always incredibly respectful to my husband and me, and he treated her very well (jumped out of the car to open the door for her, helped his grandmother make homemade cookies and other gifts for her, stuff like that). They dated for almost a year, too. Literally the only 'red flags' were that he came from a troubled home (which was why he lived with his grandparents by the time they were dating) and that he was overly clingy, possessive, and easily became jealous. ALL traits that we saw Dean display, except that he came from a stable home. Just saying.

Look, I don't mean to imply that ASP intended for Dean to be some borderline abusive boyfriend, because I think in her mind he really was supposed to be the perfect first boyfriend (because I think her mind is a somewhat twisted place when it comes to relationships, LOL) but there were some red flags in his behavior that stand out to me in retrospect, that in a real world situation not driven by dramady plot, could have grave consequences. That's the only reason I made the post that I did.

I agree. Very young men tend to be insecure. Most of them grow out of it as experience teaches them to value themselves and realize that if they are secure in themselves they need not feel threatened by strong women or other men. But some don't grow out of it. Dean seemed to stagnate and become lees interesting because of his lack of growth as a person. Basically I think ASP became bored with the character and that was reflected in Rory's attitude towards him.