One is the Loneliest Number: Unpopular GG Opinions

[readster]

10 hours ago, Crs97 said:

Isn’t it perfect?  Unfortunately it isn’t mine to give away, but I read it online so would think it’s meant to be used freely.  

I read that years ago, it's a perfect example. My wife's parents were very strict on her and her siblings and mine were a combination of both. Yet, both our parents now, spoil our kids and their other grand kids. I even have an old friend, who had parents that were so strict and now, I've seen them with their grandkids who are now in their teens and I was like: "Who are you people?"

[Guest]

Couldn’t Rory and Logan have been assigned tondifferent judges? 

[chessiegal]

1 hour ago, deaja said:

Couldn’t Rory and Logan have been assigned tondifferent judges? 

Absolutely. Plus lawyers have specialties. My husband spent his career as a federal prosecutor. There are many lawyers who never have been in a court room. I got the impression that was the case with Emily and Richard's lawyer. Logan told Lorelai his family had a lawyer who could take care of things, in other word was an expert at being a defense lawyer, and she turned him down, saying his family had done enough damage.

[readster]

6 minutes ago, chessiegal said:

Absolutely. Plus lawyers have specialties. My husband spent his career as a federal prosecutor. There are many lawyers who never have been in a court room. I got the impression that was the case with Emily and Richard's lawyer. Logan told Lorelai his family had a lawyer who could take care of things, in other word was an expert at being a defense lawyer, and she turned him down, saying his family had done enough damage.

The problem is, that Logan was a repeat offender and as much as he might have had a lawyer who could always get him out of anything outside of murder. Eventually, you are going to get a judge who is: "This is crap! You know what you were doing and have CONSTANTLY done it! Yet have no repercussions!" Plus, in another way, Logan was an complacence in the crime, so the judge would have needed to see him too. If Logan would have done a different crime or caught some place else, then yes, they would have a different judge.

[Kohola3]

6 minutes ago, readster said:

Eventually, you are going to get a judge who is: "This is crap! You know what you were doing and have CONSTANTLY done it! Yet have no repercussions!"

We have ample proof in this country that money talks.  The Huntzberger fortune probably went a long way in getting him out of any kind of punishment which parallels reality.

Judge Ralph Strother in Texas let the rapist Scott Anderson walk away with barely a slap on the wrist.  Judge Aaron Persky did the same with Brock Turner.  Both were privileged white boys.  If either had been poor and/or of color, the result would have been radically different.

[Guest]

Logan and Rory getting different punishments when her judge seemed to be on a one-off willingness to disregard the prosecutor recommendation makes sense to me. A more experienced lawyer, a more lenient judge who had more of a “kids are kids” attitude, maybe Mitchum was able to convince the person who’s boat was stolen to write a letter asking for leniency- any number of things could easily lead to one getting off easier than the other.

[andromeda331]

3 hours ago, deaja said:

Couldn’t Rory and Logan have been assigned tondifferent judges? 

 

1 hour ago, chessiegal said:

Absolutely. Plus lawyers have specialties. My husband spent his career as a federal prosecutor. There are many lawyers who never have been in a court room. I got the impression that was the case with Emily and Richard's lawyer. Logan told Lorelai his family had a lawyer who could take care of things, in other word was an expert at being a defense lawyer, and she turned him down, saying his family had done enough damage.

 

49 minutes ago, deaja said:

Logan and Rory getting different punishments when her judge seemed to be on a one-off willingness to disregard the prosecutor recommendation makes sense to me. A more experienced lawyer, a more lenient judge who had more of a “kids are kids” attitude, maybe Mitchum was able to convince the person who’s boat was stolen to write a letter asking for leniency- any number of things could easily lead to one getting off easier than the other.

If they had different judges that does surprise me I thought they'd have the same since they committed the same crime.

[readster]

6 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

 

 

If they had different judges that does surprise me I thought they'd have the same since they committed the same crime.

Yes, because it was the same crime, yes Rory spear headed it, but Logan was involved, knew who the yacht belong too and as many of us said, not his first time doing this. In fact, as Rory put it: "you've done this a ton of times, I haven't." Which, you would think that Logan would have been: "Well, here is the best way not to get caught." Instead they walked hand in hand acting like they were walking down a rose pedal filled road. 

[andromeda331]

7 hours ago, readster said:

Yes, because it was the same crime, yes Rory spear headed it, but Logan was involved, knew who the yacht belong too and as many of us said, not his first time doing this. In fact, as Rory put it: "you've done this a ton of times, I haven't." Which, you would think that Logan would have been: "Well, here is the best way not to get caught." Instead they walked hand in hand acting like they were walking down a rose pedal filled road. 

That's true. You think he would said that. Or said no since it does seem out of character for Rory to suggest they steal a boat. Or suggest instead renting a boat. He had a ton of money. He couldn't find one to rent or even a yacht? I know Rory suggested and spearheaded it but he could have said no or rented a yacht. Too bad he didn't get yelled at by a judge like Rory did. He deserved as much or even more then Rory since he was a repeat offender. Not that it made any difference. But for all Mitchum's complaining about wanting Logan to grow up and hated all that Life and Death stunts maybe if he actually let his son face the consequences of his actions then maybe Logan would have. Or did something when his son was getting himself expelled from all those private schools he bragged about. I still think its crappy of him to go off to Europe while his girlfriend who committed the same crime is stuck doing community service all summer. Come to think of it why didn't Logan call Richard and suggest letting his father handle it like he mentioned to Lorelai? He never thinks to do so after Rory moves in with her grandparents? Only a couple days had to past. 

[tarotx]

Rory made a plea deal. We have no knowledge of what deal Logan made or not. Or who he talked too. Maybe Richard said they had it handled. We don't know if the prosecutor talked to Logan. We don't know what his defense argued. We didn't see any of the Logan side.  

Logan told Rory the boat wasn't theirs to take. It was night so finding a yacht to rent wouldn't have been easy. He offered to drive to New York and she didn't want that. And then he offered his lawyers to deal with it.

Sure white privilege is real but linking Logan to those rapist wasn't necessary. 

[shron17]

14 hours ago, readster said:

In fact, as Rory put it: "you've done this a ton of times, I haven't." Which, you would think that Logan would have been: "Well, here is the best way not to get caught." Instead they walked hand in hand acting like they were walking down a rose pedal filled road. 

Except that I doubt how not to get caught ever entered Logan's mind when they were plotting to steal the boat; that was just something that happened after his shenanigans.  And sure, Rory suggested stealing the boat but I doubt she would have made that suggestion to someone she knew to be a law-abiding citizen.  Their conversation prior to taking the boat was along the lines of "welcome to the dark side," a theme that extended further into Rory's life with her decision to take time off from school, Logan throwing her a felon party and Rory's willingness to turn it all into a big joke.

23 hours ago, Kohola3 said:

We have ample proof in this country that money talks.  The Huntzberger fortune probably went a long way in getting him out of any kind of punishment which parallels reality.

Very true.  And yes, as far as we know Logan only stole boats and got off scot free, but that doesn't mean Mitchum wouldn't have gotten him off just as easily for more serious crimes, if necessary, to protect the Huntzberger name and heir.

Edited December 25, 2018 by shron17

[clack]

There is no Huntzberger fortune. There are no Huntzbergers. They are made up characters in a work of fiction. If ASP wanted to imply that Logan got off because Mitchum bought a judge, she would have written it into a script.

Why is Rory, and not Logan, convicted of the yacht theft? Because that fit the story that ASP wanted to tell. Logan being guilty as well was hand-waved away. It's not something that the viewers are meant to notice.

[Anela]

That's one reason I'm not a huge fan of Logan. He's just a more sociable, slick version of what Jess was when he first turned up. Pulling stupid stunts, stealing things. It kills me that she didn't stop Logan from stealing something that belonged to her grandmother. Younger Rory would have been appalled. This one just stupidly laughed and went along with it. 

I don't know about buying a judge, but it was implied that Logan got away with things like that all the time. You see it in real life, too: the rich college boy, getting away with things that are even worse (like rape), because of who they are/where they come from. 

[Kohola3]

8 hours ago, clack said:

There is no Huntzberger fortune. There are no Huntzbergers. They are made up characters in a work of fiction.

True, but so are the rest of the characters in GG but we endlessly analyze them!

[tarotx]

Trading rich people objects because they never notice is similar in nature to Lorelai's mindset. That's why Rory didn't even pay it much attention.

We get that privilege exists in real life but there really is no point to linking Logan to rapist. Talking about Logan's privilege doesn't need to be linked to things that he's not linked to. 

Logan has all the things money can buy but he has no real freedoms. He's allowed to joke around but was..is never allowed to explore who he is as a person. The family holds a huge grip on what he's allowed to do, the people he's allowed to be close to and the time table he's forced to walk through to his Huntzberger responsibilities. They give him the illusion of freedom but without most of the benefits. That is his storyarc.

Rory is a bridge. She is allowed to explore her options because she has choices but she's always on the bridge between decisions. Rory often chooses to not explore her options or waviers between options. Here Rory could have accepted Logan's lawyers and had similar privileges as him. She was an adult here. She didn't need her mom or Grandfather to decide what was best. Rory ran from her mom to her grandparents and let the side she was with make the decisions. 

I think Rory suffers because she didn't do her much needed pro-con list on which lawyers to choose. She did the same with leaving school. She makes impulse decisions and/or allows the strong people in her life to heavily influence her path even when they don't recommend that for her and warn her against it.

Ironically she is inspired by Logan's live "for now" but doesn't listen to him so she only gets half the benefits and very little of the understanding of why that is his path. I always think of Rory as a people pleaser, in the best possible way in that she wants them happy. But she doesn't understand how people work. Communicating and understanding others trying to communicate is her kryptonite. And that goes doublely for herself. That's why her journey is filled with charge, miscommunication and curveballs.

Rory is dealt with a harsher sentence and even a criminal record because Amy wanted to see how Rory deals with this curveball. If only Amy was a bit more able to keep characters consistent instead of allowing plot points to dictate characters.

Edited January 3, 2019 by tarotx
Their isn't there and similar needs of proofreading....

[marineg]

16 hours ago, clack said:

There is no Huntzberger fortune. There are no Huntzbergers. They are made up characters in a work of fiction. If ASP wanted to imply that Logan got off because Mitchum bought a judge, she would have written it into a script.

I mean, that sort of negates the point of this forum, doesn't it?

@tarotx I think that people referring to rape weren't implying that Logan was in any way capable of it. I believe they are saying that it is in the realm of possibility that Logan could buy his way out of the boat theft since in the US, and other countries, people in similar socio-economic situations, are getting away with much bigger things, such as rape or murder.

I do agree with you however that Logan was never given a way out of his family's grasp. Even once he left his father's company, and tried to make his own way in the world in season 7, he ended up back at the family business in the revival. Although it could be argued that season 7 is the only non-ASP season, and once she was back on the show, in the revival, she put Logan back exactly where she left him, by being the selfish Huntzberger heir she wrote him as in the beginning.

[Kohola3]

1 minute ago, marineg said:

@tarotx I think that people referring to rape weren't implying that Logan was in any way capable of it. I believe they are saying that it is in the realm of possibility that Logan could buy his way out of the boat theft since in the US, and other countries, people in similar socio-economic situations, are getting away with much bigger things, such as rape or murder.

Precisely.

[tarotx]

When you link a character to crimes they don't commit, they get associated with those crimes. You guys are putting him in the same breath as rapist. Logan helped his Girlfriend take a boat because she was sad and got that Moby Dick quote stuck in her head so needed to take to the seas. 

As for Logan's arc, you can tell Amy disregard s7 for him. In winter s6 she said, "Logan is a kid whose entire life has been preplanned for him. Rory grew up in a household where it was like, ‘Anything you want, kid, you go for it.’ He never had that. He grew up with all the money privilege, but he didn’t grow up with any freedom. His freedoms are sort of self-imposed, ‘I’m going to go act like an idiot, because I’ve never gotten a chance to explore who I am.’ ".

And in 2016, she said, "This is a boy who has never been released from his family. And all the freedom of the money and the wonderful charm of the Life and Death Brigade and the fact that he has cars and can do…in his heart, in his soul he’s incredibly trapped".

[marineg]

 I think it is a bit reductive to say that because we put the words "Logan" and "rapist" in the same sentence, it must mean we believe Logan is a rapist. Without getting political, and staying within the realm of GG, it is true that people with backgrounds similar to Logan have the possibility of getting away with such things as theft, or rape, or murder (or, not and...). They have access to the best lawyers, have connections, to judges, and people in politics and the judicial system. Connections that others do not. Do you think that Dean or Jess would have gotten away scot free had they stolen a boat with Rory? Because I don't. The Huntzbergers, and families of the like, are a very prominent family in the GG world, and have clearly access and connections to a lot of people. We see that when Mitchum offers Rory a job/internship at any newspaper she wants, or when Richard knows the parents of an of Rory's Chiton or Yale friends (Tristan, Logan, Finn, etc.) All these families are connected, and use those connections. 

Edited December 29, 2018 by marineg

[tarotx]

I think it's messed up to do the linking. There is no reason to go beyond saying there are people who are privileged who get away with worse. 

[Kohola3]

32 minutes ago, tarotx said:

You guys are putting him in the same breath as rapist.

In none of these postings is this true.  The point is - people with money can buy their way out of serious crimes in one way or another.

 

10 minutes ago, marineg said:

Do you think that Dean or Jess would have gotten away scott free had they stolen a boat with Rory? Because I don't.

Nor do I.  Case in point:  the "Affluenza" defense that allowed Ethan Couch to virtually walk away from killing 4 people.

[marineg]

14 minutes ago, Kohola3 said:

Nor do I.  Case in point:  the "Affluenza" defense that allowed Ethan Couch to virtually walk away from killing 4 people.

There are many examples to be honest. And the hypocrisy of the affluenza defense, saying that because of his privilege, he wasn't able to recognise the consequences of his actions, and thus he should be allowed to walk away from killing 4 people, paralysing 1, and traumatising a handful, is absolutely shocking.

But we are straying from the subject of this forum! 

Edited December 29, 2018 by marineg

[shron17]

1 hour ago, marineg said:

I think that people referring to rape weren't implying that Logan was in any way capable of it.

The only factor that gives me to pause to not completely agree is the frequent heavy drinking Logan does with his friends.  One could say if he didn't have Rory looking out for him after season 6 he could have easily gotten himself into more trouble than he did.  As I recall, the father of the one of the rapists mentioned above used the argument that his son was drunk and shouldn't be held responsible for his actions.  Which doesn't mean I think Logan would do the same thing, but it does raise the possibility.

 

47 minutes ago, tarotx said:

When you link a character to crimes they don't commit, they get associated with those crimes. You guys are putting him in the same breath as rapist. 

He's a fictional character and doesn't have a reputation or life to ruin.  I'm sure we've all had the experience of having others say things about characters we like, but we don't tell them they can't.  We all have our own perspective of the characters' behavior and have all seen the same exact scenes--it's not like anyone knows something that no one else knows.  If you can't say it in the unpopular gg opinions thread, then where else?

[marineg]

2 minutes ago, shron17 said:

The only factor that gives me to pause to not completely agree is the frequent heavy drinking Logan does with his friends.  One could say if he didn't have Rory looking out for him after season 6 he could have easily gotten himself into more trouble than he did.  As I recall, the father of the one of the rapists mentioned above used the argument that his son was drunk and shouldn't be held responsible for his actions.  Which doesn't mean I think Logan would do the same thing, but it does raise the possibility.

The same could be argued for Jess when he tried to "push" Rory into having sex.  And again, for anyone reading, we are in no way suggesting that the characters we love from Gilmore Girls are rapists or murderers.

[clack]

There are no hidden depths in GG plotting. ASP isn't that skilled. Everything is there on the surface. If we aren't shown something, or that something isn't at least referred to -- as in Mitchum using nefarious means to get charges dropped against Logan -- then that something didn't happen. That whole yacht stealing incident was just a superficial plot device to force Rory to hit rock bottom. 

The heart of the Rory/Logan relationship is incoherent and unsatisfying, because there respective character arcs are contradictory. Rory's arc is her being seduced to the Dark Side by wealth and privilege through her relationships with her grandparents and especially with Logan. Logan's arc follows the Darcy template -- the arrogant rich dick with a secretly good heart who is reformed by the love of a good woman.

Logan leads Rory into a moral decline. Rory simultaneously leads Logan into a moral improvement. It doesn't add up -- their arcs are in conflict. 

[shron17]

12 hours ago, clack said:

 Everything is there on the surface. If we aren't shown something, or that something isn't at least referred to -- as in Mitchum using nefarious means to get charges dropped against Logan -- then that something didn't happen.

Well, I would count these as references to Logan doing whatever he wants and not suffering consequences because of his family money.  From Norman Mailer I'm Pregnant:

Quote

Doyle (hushed): That guy’s a real piece of work. He took last year off with a bunch of his friends. He was going to sail Daddy’s yacht around till he sank it.
RORY: He sank his father’s yacht?
DOYLE: Right off of Fiji. They spent six months of gallivanting and partying and God knows what in there till Daddy sent one of his planes to bring him back.
RORY: I’m guessing his father’s rich.
DOYLE: His father’s Mitchum Huntzberger.

And, this from But I'm a Gilmore:

Quote

HONOR: Hey. I backed you up when you wanted to take a year off school and sail around the world. I wired you the money when you sunk the yacht. I helped pay off the Indonesian Coast Guard!
LOGAN: Okay, okay! I'll be there.

Mitchum's speech from Partings seems to indicate Amy didn't see Logan as being reformed by Rory's love for him:

Quote

MITCHUM: Wait let's get this clear right now. I'm sending Logan away for one reason, because it is time, it is time for him to stop jumping out of planes in a gorilla mask and crashing boats and getting plastered every night and ending up in the hospital. It's time for him to stop being a child and to start being a man. It's time for him to start focusing on his future, and the only way he is gonna do that is to get him out of his environment and away from those dopes, Colin and Finn, and “The Life and Death Brigade” and get him on a path. Logan is talented he’s talented. He's my son. I want him to achieve something. And he needs a push. It's what my father did with me. He pushed me, I grew up, and now Logan is gonna grow up. Anything here you're not agreeing with? [Rory is quiet] I didn't think so.

These are some of things from the show that make me think that Logan was always bailed out from being responsible for his mistakes.  I doubt getting him off for stealing a boat would be any different.  But again, everyone is entitled to their own opinions.

Edited December 30, 2018 by shron17

[clack]

How could Logan's family using their pull to get charges dismissed against him while letting Rory take the fall not become a major story arc, if that's what happened?

How would the elder Gilmores have reacted? Lorelai? Rory? Logan himself? Would Logan have allowed Mitchum to use his influence only to get himself off, and then leave his girlfriend to fend for himself? And even if Logan acted so out of character, wouldn't Rory feel betrayed?

We never saw any of these unavoidable consequences because, in the fictional world of the GG, it didn't happen.

Why does only Rory get charged? Because the story arc is about Rory going off the rails and bottoming out. The story arc is not about Logan betraying Rory and alienating himself forever from Rory, her family and friends. ( Not that that wouldn't have been an interesting direction in which to take the show -- arguably more compelling than what we got).

[Katy M]

3 minutes ago, clack said:

How could Logan's family using their pull to get charges dismissed against him while letting Rory take the fall not become a major story arc, if that's what happened?

How would the elder Gilmores have reacted? Lorelai? Rory? Logan himself? Would Logan have allowed Mitchum to use his influence only to get himself off, and then leave his girlfriend to fend for himself? And even if Logan acted so out of character, wouldn't Rory feel betrayed?

We never saw any of these unavoidable consequences because, in the fictional world of the GG, it didn't happen.

Why does only Rory get charged? Because the story arc is about Rory going off the rails and bottoming out. The story arc is not about Logan betraying Rory and alienating himself forever from Rory, her family and friends. ( Not that that wouldn't have been an interesting direction in which to take the show -- arguably more compelling than what we got).

why would any of these people even necessarily know if Mitchum just made a call to the judge?  He obviously wouldn't have taken out an ad on TV to announce he had done it.

[shron17]

1 hour ago, clack said:

How could Logan's family using their pull to get charges dismissed against him while letting Rory take the fall not become a major story arc, if that's what happened?

It wasn't a major arc because the major story is always Lorelai and Rory and Lorelai's parents.  Logan urged Rory to use his dad's lawyer but when her grandparents hired her lawyer there wasn't much else he could do.  The Gilmores hired a lawyer for Rory because they blamed Logan.  Rory felt responsible since she suggested stealing the boat and didn't blame Logan.  Lorelai ended up not speaking to any of them and didn't even go to Rory's trial.  Last, the fact that we didn't see it doesn't necessarily mean Logan wasn't charged and that the Huntzberger's didn't make some sort of arrangement.  Sure, it would be nice to know Logan's side of things so we don't have to speculate, but I'm fine with a show called Gilmore Girls focusing on Rory Gilmore's consequences and not those of her boyfriend.

Edited December 31, 2018 by shron17

[MatildaMoody]

On 12/29/2018 at 11:46 AM, tarotx said:

 

Trading rich people objects because they never notice is similar in nature to Lorelai's mindset. That's why Rory didn't even pay it much attention.

 

You're right that it was Lorelai's mindset, but Rory used call Lorelai on it and even pointed out how childish she was. Remember how she called her out for changing Emily's seating arrangements for the vow renewal (and the poor wedding planner lost her job over it)? The fact that Rory sat quietly while Emily blamed a maid for Logan's shenanigans even when Emily said she was going to fire the poor woman for stealing, is what is really appalling to me. It showed how much she had changed in just the short amount of time she and Logan had been together.  

Edited January 5, 2019 by MatildaMoody

[tarotx]

1 hour ago, MatildaMoody said:

You're right that it was Lorelai's mindset, but Rory used call Lorelai on it and even pointed out how childish she was. Remember how she called her out for changing Emily's seating arrangements for the vow renewal (and the poor wedding planner lost her job over it)? The fact that Rory sat quietly while Emily blamed a maid for Logan's shenanigans even when Emily said she was going to fire the poor woman for stealing, is what is really appalling to me. It showed how much she had changed in just the short amount of time she and Logan had been together.  

Rory didn't call Lorelai out most of the time. And she mainly called Lorelai out about the wedding planner because Lorelai attacked the LDB. Rory didn't call out Lorelai being the one to mess with the seating chart after Emily said she fired the planner. 

[MatildaMoody]

3 minutes ago, tarotx said:

Rory didn't call Lorelai out most of the time. And she mainly called Lorelai out about the wedding planner because Lorelai attacked the LDB. Rory didn't call out Lorelai being the one to mess with the seating chart after Emily said she fired the planner. 

Rory told Lorelai that she was being childish when she started making changes to the seating chart and she told her to stop it - that was before we learned that Emily fired the wedding planner. I know she didn't say anything after finding out the wedding planner was fired. I was simply pointing out that Lorelai's actions caused the woman to lose her job. But, that Rory knew that Lorelai was being childish and told her so. Rory, after she got together with Logan, didn't even have the decency to tell Logan, "hey these are my grandparents. Please refrain from stealing from them."

[tarotx]

12 minutes ago, MatildaMoody said:

Rory told Lorelai that she was being childish when she started making changes to the seating chart and she told her to stop it - that was before we learned that Emily fired the wedding planner. I know she didn't say anything after finding out the wedding planner was fired. I was simply pointing out that Lorelai's actions caused the woman to lose her job. But, that Rory knew that Lorelai was being childish and told her so. Rory, after she got together with Logan, didn't even have the decency to tell Logan, "hey these are my grandparents. Please refrain from stealing from them."

She tells Logan no. And as I mentioned, earlier she didn't say anything about Lorelai getting the wedding planner fired the same as here. She did say to Lorelai that it was her Grandmother's seating chart but it's not until Lorelai mocks the LDB that Rory gets mad. This kind of behavior is similar to what Rory grew up with. Mocking the pretentious rich people. It doesn't feel big until Emily freaks and goes off on the maid. Which really isn't a new experience for Rory either.

And Rory will really only make a scene if she's emotional. Here she isn't sure how to respond and Lorelai defuses it pretty quick.

[tarotx]

By the way, the LDB is an anarchy group so no one is saying trading rich people things is a good thing, Just that Rory's behavior is little different then it was in the past. Though when Colin&Finn likely do the same thing she doesn't believe her grandmother...

By nature Rory is a subdue person so she does often let things slide until she's overwhelned or emotional. Stress is a trigger for her but often she just lets the stronger people sort it out. 

[coffeecoffeecoffee]

This might earn me the Queen of  Unpopularity crown - which I think I already secured back in elementary school, lol. Here it is: after rewatching the revival, I actually love the LL scenes overall. Their lack of communication was exaggerated, but what isn't exaggerated in ASP's universe, so I don't take it too much to heart.  [Side note: class distinctions, the whole "the rich are DIFFERENT from you and me" thing, everyone's character quirks, the way people express their anger and jealousy, the way Lorelai and Rory consume a minimum of eight thousand calories a day and drink gallons of coffee with no repercussions - all that and more is exaggerated on GG to be funnier, more dramatic or just memorable and entertaining, so I don't watch expecting a very literal representation of the world. The show drives me less insane that way!] And yes, even though I understand that Luke represents 'old school' values and love him for it, I agree that it was silly how Luke, who in his own way is actually a smart man, seemed embarrassingly incapable of grasping the concept of surrogacy.

That aside, LL had some lovely little domestic scenes, and the theme about being so comfortable with where you are in your relationship and life that you're in a state of inertia vs. being so restless that you're never content resonates with me. A lot of us can relate to that. I also can't help but wonder if the thing about LL wanting kids but never discussing it until it seems too late was ASP's way of hinting that they might be the ones to raise Rory's baby while Rory continues her grueling work schedule of churning out one brief article every 14 years in between flying back and forth from Europe to sleep with engaged men while supposedly in a relationship with another nice guy she treats like trash. Everything Rory-related annoys me at the moment, so I haven't given it much thought.

I ended up loving LL in the revival more than I did since maybe late season 4 or early season 5 in the original series. Like Lorelai, I have a big head, so please keep that in mind when I'm fitted for my Queen of Unpopularity crown. ;) And no matter how many times I've watched their wedding scene in Fall, it still makes me cry!

[Guest]

8 hours ago, coffeecoffeecoffee said:

se Rory's baby while Rory continues her grueling work schedule of churning out one brief article every 14 years in between flying back and forth from Europe to sleep with engaged men while supposedly in a relationship with another nice guy she treats like trash

Lol moment right here!

[andromeda331]

On ‎1‎/‎7‎/‎2019 at 8:54 AM, coffeecoffeecoffee said:

while Rory continues her grueling work schedule of churning out one brief article every 14 years in between flying back and forth from Europe to sleep with engaged men while supposedly in a relationship with another nice guy she treats like trash. Everything Rory-related annoys me at the moment, so I haven't given it much thought.

I can't stop laughing at this part. And its so true!

[clack]

Rory is the rom com's answer to Walter White. Her arc is one long Breaking Bad, starting in S5.

She goes from being kind, thoughtful, conscientious, and independent to being selfish, spoiled, lazy, and dependent on her family and friends.

Hard to put a finger on just what happened, it was all so gradual. Joining Logan's L&D Brigade seems a turning point, but is choosing fun and excitement in her college years, as opposed to evenings in her dorm watching movie marathons with the worthy, though not terribly exciting Marty, such a moral failing that it would gradually erode her character? Many people seek new experiences and go a little wild in college and then go on to lead responsible lives.

Pehaps writing her memoir will force her to self-reflect in the hypothetical S9 that we will never get.

[BlancheDevoreaux]

The more I think about it, the more I disagree that Lorelai and Rory had some great relationship. As long as things were good, everything was smooth sailing. However, the two of them could not handle conflict with each other.  Rory got mad at her mom not telling her she was dating Max so she ran away to her grandparents.  Okay, not that major of a thing.  But, if you fast forward a few seasons to where Rory sleeps with Dean, she completely flips out on her mom and flees to Europe.  Rory can't handle Mitchums (accurate) observation that Rory doesn't have what it takes, her mom tries to talk her down, Rory freaks out, drops out, and moves out. The two of them seem to struggle with handling conflict with each other and that is a crucial part of having a strong relationship

[marineg]

@BlancheDevoreaux I agree, but disagree. I don't think that the arguments you stated are a reflection of Lorelai and Rory's relationship, but more of Rory's inability to handle conflict or obstacles. Examples: telling Dean she loves Jess, the situation with Jess skipping school (she must have known something was wrong, let's be honest), her mother dating Max, her mother being mad at the boat theft, her college roommates were being living roommates who lived in their apartment, losing her "study tree," being told she has to drop a class, being told she can't make it as a journalist by Mitchum, being told (S04) that her articles are no good by Doyle, facing her mother post-coitus with Dean, facing Dean post-coitus with Dean, sending Dean the letter through Lorelai, facing Lindsey and her mother post-letter, leaving her grandparent's house without telling them when they won't allow their 21yo granddaughter to have sex in their house knowing full well they are old-school (she hid Logan when he came over for god's sake), avoiding her father after he dumped her mom, etc.

 

Also, I have an issue with "The Incredible Sinking Lorelais."

First of all, crew Sookie for being the worst partner. I said it before and I'll say it again, Sookie should have stepped up. Not even steeped up, but done the bare minimum. She wanted that sink, it was her responsibility to be there to check it out.

Second of all, I understand that Lorelai had to cut short her hair appointment because of Sookie, but didn't she have 5 minutes to straighten it or do something to it before going to her mother/grandmother dinner? Especially after her mom told her it was important?

Third, what is up with Rory and her classes? I won't speak about every school, but my university only allowed for a certain amount of credits. After a year, if you were an honor student, you were allowed to "overload", which basically means take an additional class, compared to all others. You couldn't just sign up for any class, there are rules. Rory, was a freshman, and even then, an overload meant 5 classes. Not 6...

Fourth, in what world would a professor ask a student to drop their class? Maybe at a small college, where to professor-student ratio is lower, but at big schools like Rory's or mine, the professor would never contact your advisor to see your file, and then force you to drop his class. They have too many students, and better things to do! Even at a smaller college they wouldn't force you to drop a class. If you wanna fail, fail. Sure, they can advise you that you are not on the right track, or to take a lighter load of classes until you are better acquainted with college life, but still, they can't tell you to drop a class. And why couldn't she have tried to get an A at her next paper? She didn't get an F, "just" a D. She could have done what she did at Chilton, and done extra credit, worked on that subject. I know my professors gave us a lot of extra credit opportunities in college.

Edited January 15, 2019 by marineg

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, marineg said:

Third, what is up with Rory and her classes? I won't speak about every school, but my university only allowed for a certain amount of credits. After a year, if you were an honor student, you were allowed to "overload", which basically means take an additional class, compared to all others. You couldn't just sign up for any class, there are rules. Rory, was a freshman, and even then, an overload meant 5 classes. Not 6...

At my school, normal classload was 5, so overload would be 6.

 

1 hour ago, marineg said:

If you wanna fail, fail. Sure, they can advise you that you are not on the right track, or to take a lighter load of classes

IIRC, he did advise, not force.  He basically told her she was failing and that she should drop the class instead.  He didn't say "drop the class or I will get you thrown out of this school."

1 hour ago, marineg said:

I know my professors gave us a lot of extra credit opportunities in college.

I hate that idea.  So, you can basically fail all the tests, not know what you're doing, do a few extra assignments and get the same A that someone got by passing all the tests and doing well on the papers in the first place got?  

[Taryn74]

2 hours ago, marineg said:

at big schools like Rory's or mine, the professor would never contact your advisor to see your file, and then force you to drop his class. They have too many students, and better things to do!

The thing that I thought was truly ridiculous was that the professor was slapping her on the wrist for using her own research from another paper to "pad" her paper for his class.  WTF?  LOL.  

[marineg]

4 hours ago, Katy M said:

At my school, normal classload was 5, so overload would be 6.

Yeah, I mean it works by credits. We would take 18 credits if normal load, and 20-22 if overload. So as "big" classes were 4 credits each, we would either take 4 major classes, or a mix of big and small classes. If that makes sense. So yeah, you could take 16 single-credit classes if you wanted, but in general, it was 4 4-credit classes.
 

4 hours ago, Katy M said:

IIRC, he did advise, not force.  He basically told her she was failing and that she should drop the class instead.  He didn't say "drop the class or I will get you thrown out of this school."

RORY: Everybody else can handle the classes, but I can't. And I'm supposed to. I'm supposed to take five classes. Everybody else does. I mean, my grandfather did. God, how am I gonna tell my grandfather that I failed?
DEAN: You failed?
RORY: No, I didn't even get a chance to fail. I mean -- I had to drop a class. I was told to drop a class.

--> I did make a mistake, she was taking 5 classes in overload, not 6. 
 

4 hours ago, Katy M said:

I hate that idea.  So, you can basically fail all the tests, not know what you're doing, do a few extra assignments and get the same A that someone got by passing all the tests and doing well on the papers in the first place got?  

Well, that's not exactly the meaning of extra credit.

More often than not, extra credit is extra work, something that works off of what you learned in class. So if you can't pass your tests and papers, pretty sure you can't pass the extra credits. It's usually something more complicated and more challenging than the usual homework or tests. In some exams, you can have an extra credit portion, a question that is more complicated than the others, asking about something you are not required to learn in order to pass the class, but if you know it, you are recompensed. 

So basically, in Rory's situation, or in the situation of someone who got a lower grade than expected at a paper or exam, they can try to work it off (key word here being work) by trying to excel at the rest of the papers/exams/homework. It's not so the people who never do anything in class can get away with an A. It's for people who already ace the class, or people who maybe had a bad grade but an otherwise good understanding of the class subject, can still pass said class. Mistakes happen. Rory is smart, and I'm sure she would have worked towards a better grade.
 

4 hours ago, Taryn74 said:

The thing that I thought was truly ridiculous was that the professor was slapping her on the wrist for using her own research from another paper to "pad" her paper for his class.  WTF?  LOL.  

Right? Isn't that the point of college? To take various classes, and try to make use of the knowledge you learned? My only objection would be if research she used was completely off topic.

Edited January 15, 2019 by marineg

[andromeda331]

23 hours ago, BlancheDevoreaux said:

The more I think about it, the more I disagree that Lorelai and Rory had some great relationship. As long as things were good, everything was smooth sailing. However, the two of them could not handle conflict with each other.  Rory got mad at her mom not telling her she was dating Max so she ran away to her grandparents.  Okay, not that major of a thing.  But, if you fast forward a few seasons to where Rory sleeps with Dean, she completely flips out on her mom and flees to Europe.  Rory can't handle Mitchums (accurate) observation that Rory doesn't have what it takes, her mom tries to talk her down, Rory freaks out, drops out, and moves out. The two of them seem to struggle with handling conflict with each other and that is a crucial part of having a strong relationship

I agree and disagree with this also. At times they had a really great relationship and supported each other. Rory racing home from Yale when Sookie called and told her that Lorelai was down. The study session in season one, Lorelai bailing on the PTA meeting when she learned Rory got a D, Lorelai helping her shy daughter when she was dating for the first time. Their talk about clothes and her comment about the dance worrying Rory was too afraid to go rather then didn't want too. Rory trying to get Lorelai and her parents to get along, calling out Emily after she wrecked Luke and Lorelai's relationship. There were times in season five where Lorelai is talking about her mom card and worries that saying something Rory would bolt which at the time I thought she was crazy or over worrying. But that is Rory's pattern when they were fighting over Dean in the first episode Rory slamming the door and not talking to Lorelai, her fight with Lorelai about Max Rory takes off for the grandparents, Rory being mad at Lorelai about Jess which spills over into FND and Rory bolts to the study, mad at Lorelai for not jumping up and down that she had sex with Dean but rightly pointed out that she's wrong and tries to talk to Rory again the next day Rory goes to Europe with Emily, and of course her running to Grandpa when Lorelai isn't supportive of her dropping of Yale. Most of the time Lorelai is trying to talk sense into her daughter not wanting her to suddenly give up Chilton which Rory did want and was excited about until Dean, Lorelai explaining how she felt when her best friend got back together with her boyfriend and thinking Rory would be hurt she might have been wrong about that but she had good intentions, I'm not sure its wrong of Lorelai to be concerned about her daughter dating Jess given his 'tude and how he treats everyone although she does talk to Rory in the study when they make up, Lorelai was completely right in everything she said to Rory in that scene after Rory slept with Dean and Rory still cold to her when Lorelai tries to talk to her the next day and once again talk some sense into her daughter Rory messed up, and the biggest one Lorelai not being on board about her dropping out. Lorelai was completely right and tries to convince her not to drop out, worrying that Rory won't back, pointing out that dropping out because one bad review was stupid, suggesting she stay in college and figure out she wants, suggests Harvard she does everything she can to try and convince Rory she was making a stupid mistake. Which she was. Plus Rory lied to her grandparents or at least Richard about Lorelai not wanting her to come home. What Lorelai wanted was a plan and told her that coming home and bumming around wasn't going to happen. Even if she dropped out and come home she'd still have to do something. Every time Lorelai disagrees with Rory in a big way Rory bolts. Later in season six or seven Lorelai even jokes before giving her advice to check and see if the pool house is still available. I have really have no doubt Rory wouldn't do that again. She doesn't ever really stop that habit nor after she ran away does she ever really apologize for her crappy behavior, for bolting and hurting her mother. 

Edited January 15, 2019 by andromeda331

[andromeda331]

11 minutes ago, marineg said:

Right? Isn't that the point of college? To take various classes, and try to make use of the knowledge you learned? My only objection would be if research she used was completely off topic.

I thought that was why the professor was upset because the research she used was off topic. Doesn't he say something like part of her paper dealt with Game Theory well and then went off topic about pollution in Mexico City?

[Katy M]

50 minutes ago, marineg said:

Yeah, I mean it works by credits. We would take 18 credits if normal load, and 20-22 if overload. So as "big" classes were 4 credits each, we would either take 4 major classes, or a mix and big and small classes. If that makes sense. So yeah, you could take 16 single-credit classes if you wanted, but in general, it was 4 4-credit classes.

Well, our classes were 3 credits, 4 if there were labs involved.  16 was considered a full load, but obviously unless you had lab, or 2 2 credit classes, or something, you'd ended up with 15.

 

51 minutes ago, marineg said:

RORY: No, I didn't even get a chance to fail. I mean -- I had to drop a class. I was told to drop a class.

That doesn't mean he "made" her.  We know that Rory over internalizes criticism. To her, a suggestion would equal a command.

 

52 minutes ago, marineg said:

Well, that's not exactly the meaning of extra credit.

More often than not, extra credit is extra work, something that works off of what you learned in class. So if you can't pass your tests and papers, pretty sure you can't pass the extra credits. It's usually something more complicated and more challenging than the usual homework or tests. In some exams, you can have an extra credit portion, a question that is more complicated than the others, asking about something you are not required to learn in order to pass the class, but if you know it, you are recompensed. 

So basically, in Rory's situation, or in the situation of someone who got a lower grade than expected at a paper or exam, they can try to work it off (key word here being work) by trying to excel at the rest of the papers/exams/homework. It's not so the people who never do anything in class can get away with an A. It's for people who already ace the class, or people who maybe had a bad grade but an otherwise good understanding of the class subject, can still pass said class. Mistakes happen. Rory is smart, and I'm sure she would have worked towards a better grade.

I know what extra credit is.  I still don't think it's fair. If you can't pass the class doing the work everybody else is doing, maybe you shouldn't be passing.

[marineg]

College isn't a competition. And extra credit is not about passing people who don't do the work. Extra credit is there to give props to students with a better understanding of the class than required. If you have a better understanding of the class than required, you should pass. Even if once you had a bad day and wrote a D paper. I'm not talking about giving Rory an A, just working her ass off in that class to pass.
 

1 hour ago, andromeda331 said:

I thought that was why the professor was upset because the research she used was off topic. Doesn't he say something like part of her paper dealt with Game Theory well and then went off topic about pollution in Mexico City?

The exact quote is: 
PROF. GILBERT: Okay, now your paper dealt well enough with the game theory portion. However, you then diverged into a discussion on the pollution problem in Mexico City.

Unless she found a way to link game theory to pollution, you're right. But, to be the devil's advocate, the professor didn't say she was off topic, he said, and I quote: "Well, it felt to me like someone using knowledge from a different course to pad their paper and thereby avoid doing research for mine." As if his only complaint was that she didn't do enough research for his paper. In college, I often used knowledge learned from one class to help me in another. The only problems in this situation could be if Rory was off topic, indeed, or if she copied part of her paper on pollution in Mexico City into her paper on game theory.
 

And can I ask something? Why is Rory taking so many classes that have nothing to do with her major, which is supposed to be English? I get that she is supposed to take classes outside of her major, but we see her more in economics classes than English classes.

Edited January 15, 2019 by marineg

[peacheslatour]

Quote

And can I ask something? Why is Rory taking so many classes that have nothing to do with her major, which is supposed to be English? I get that she is supposed to take classes outside of her major, but we see her more in economics classes than English classes.

Eight million years ago when I was in college, your freshman and sophomore years were mainly required classes like math, science, social studies and so forth. When my mother was in college you couldn't even declare a major until junior year.

[Katy M]

2 hours ago, marineg said:

Unless she found a way to link game theory to pollution, you're right. But, to be the devil's advocate, the professor didn't say she was off topic, he said, and I quote: "Well, it felt to me like someone using knowledge from a different course to pad their paper and thereby avoid doing research for mine." As if his only complaint was that she didn't do enough research for his paper. In college, I often used knowledge learned from one class to help me in another. The only problems in this situation could be if Rory was off topic, indeed, or if she copied part of her paper on pollution in Mexico City into her paper on game theory.

Yeah, but I would say that if it stood out so much that he assumed that was what she was doing, it must have been at least somewhat off-topic. Or didn't flow in well.  Or something.

[marineg]

1 hour ago, peacheslatour said:

Eight million years ago when I was in college, your freshman and sophomore years were mainly required classes like math, science, social studies and so forth. When my mother was in college you couldn't even declare a major until junior year.

Yes, but they barely show her in an actual English class. And why isn't her major journalism?