One is the Loneliest Number: Unpopular GG Opinions

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

That evening wasn't the first nor the last time Jess disregarded Rory's request. The most egregious was in Kyle's bedroom but he never really "heard" her. It was always what he wanted, when he wanted it it. 

Many think that relationship was an endgame type of relationship but would they if they cared about the agency of the female component? 

On 12/6/2018 at 7:26 AM, Katy M said:

The only part I didn't like about that was that he showed up when she told him she wanted to be alone. But, Paris and Jess also came over and wouldn't leave when asked, so they're all pretty much tied at that point.  But, I would be mad if my significant other told me I couldn't come over because they wanted to be alone and then found out there were other people over there, including the guy who was obviously trying to get with her.

I agree but he should have understood that she didn't invite them. They are not there because she wanted them there but not him.

[Kohola3]

1 minute ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

I agree but he should have understood that she didn't invite them. They are not there because she wanted them there but not him.

Then grow a spine and ask them to leave.  I would have been peeved as well.  She was able to make it clear that Dean wasn't welcome but couldn't do the same for the other two?

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

19 minutes ago, Kohola3 said:

Then grow a spine and ask them to leave.  I would have been peeved as well.  She was able to make it clear that Dean wasn't welcome but couldn't do the same for the other two?

She did. I guess she should've forcibly removed him? What was she to do when she made it clear she didn't want him there?

[Katy M]

18 minutes ago, Kohola3 said:

Then grow a spine and ask them to leave.  I would have been peeved as well.  She was able to make it clear that Dean wasn't welcome but couldn't do the same for the other two?

Or, at the very least, when Dean calls, tell him.  She was clearly trying to cover up, which became obvious when he showed up (again wrongly).  But, let's pretend Dean called and asked if he could bring over ice cream, Rory said no and he actually decided to honor her request.  And then Jess and Paris's discussion gets louder and he hears it over the phone.  He gets the same information without having done anything wrong, and it still looks like she's hiding it (because she was).

Just now, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

She did. I guess she should've forcibly removed him? What was she to do when she made it clear she didn't want him there?

She could have said "Jess, I absolutely mean it.  You have to leave."  Then goes in her room and shuts the door.  If he still doesn't leave, call Luke, because he has serious issues at that point.

I actually can't remember the exact wording of how he ended up staying, but I do remember with Paris she said something to the effect of "fine, we'll do x and that's it."  So, I feel like she probably also reluctantly gave Jess permission to stay.

[peacheslatour]

I'm watching Deep Fried Korean Thanksgiving right now. How stupid was Lorelai not to know that Rory needed to apply to more than one college? Of course you need to apply to several, that's just common sense. She was naive to assume that Rory was automatically going to get into Harvard (she did, but that's not the point) what would they have done if she hadn't? There is only a small window of time to be accepted and then you are at a disadvantage from then on.

[chessiegal]

42 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

I'm watching Deep Fried Korean Thanksgiving right now. How stupid was Lorelai not to know that Rory needed to apply to more than one college? Of course you need to apply to several, that's just common sense. She was naive to assume that Rory was automatically going to get into Harvard (she did, but that's not the point) what would they have done if she hadn't? There is only a small window of time to be accepted and then you are at a disadvantage from then on.

My bigger question is where did Rory get the money to apply to the other schools? I only applied to 2 schools but my parents paid the application fees.

[Taryn74]

1 hour ago, peacheslatour said:

She was naive to assume that Rory was automatically going to get into Harvard

I'm really surprised the guests didn't burst out laughing when Rory said "I'm pretty much counting on Harvard."  

[Crs97]

This to me is evidence of Lorelai’s disdain for her parents’ lifestyle until it suits her.  I am sure it never occurred to her that Rory wouldn’t attend Harvard because if Rory failed to get in, I have no doubt Lorelei would have gone to her parents to have them find a connection and get Rory in because she “deserved” it.

[MatildaMoody]

17 hours ago, chessiegal said:

She was naive to assume that Rory was automatically going to get into Harvard (she did, but that's not the point) what would they have done if she hadn't?

I chalk this up to inconsistent writing. Both Richard and Rory at different times point out that Lorelai never applied to college so she didn't know how those things work. But, Lorelai was a private school kid on the college track. She would have been groomed for years for higher education if only to marry well. At 16 she would have had plenty of guidance counselors telling her the ins and outs that she would need to get into a good school. Even if she herself never had the opportunity to apply to college, almost everyone else around her was. It seems completely ridiculous to me that with her background as well as her devotion to Rory getting into the Iviest of the Ivies, that she wouldn't know how the process works. Let alone that she would make a huge scene about it in front of a group of her parents' friends. I assumed that whole thing was to add a dramatic/embarrassing Lorelai moment to yet another Gilmore get together. 

[Guest]

21 hours ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

She wasn't being a doormat, she was reacting like the person who was in the wrong. Eventually, all their issues were laid at her feet and I see that example in the scene you mention.

I personally think she was in the wrong. Not wanting to have Dean over wasn’t wrong, but most people in relationships wouldn’t be happy if their significant other said they wanted to be alone and then were hanging out with someone who had made it clear they were trying to undermine your relationship.

[scarynikki12]

For argument’s sake let’s say that Lorelai’s private school wasn’t as vigilant about the students being prepared for applying to college in the early 80s. That wouldn’t change the fact that Chilton sure as hell would have been when Rory attended. And there’s no way Lorelai could have avoided it no matter how little she was involved. My Chilton-esque school made sure the parents were in the loop with regard to the process from the moment it began. And Lorelai being in the Boosters and having Emily for a mother also meant she wouldn’t have been able to avoid the information. It was just a contrived reason for a Gilmore argument. 

[andromeda331]

23 hours ago, MatildaMoody said:

I chalk this up to inconsistent writing. Both Richard and Rory at different times point out that Lorelai never applied to college so she didn't know how those things work. But, Lorelai was a private school kid on the college track. She would have been groomed for years for higher education if only to marry well. At 16 she would have had plenty of guidance counselors telling her the ins and outs that she would need to get into a good school. Even if she herself never had the opportunity to apply to college, almost everyone else around her was. It seems completely ridiculous to me that with her background as well as her devotion to Rory getting into the Iviest of the Ivies, that she wouldn't know how the process works. Let alone that she would make a huge scene about it in front of a group of her parents' friends. I assumed that whole thing was to add a dramatic/embarrassing Lorelai moment to yet another Gilmore get together. 

So do I. It doesn't make sense to Lorelai's background. There's no way she wasn't groomed for college. Her private school and her parents. Plus Lorelai has been the one who talked about Harvard all the time and was making sure Rory was going to college. In the first episode when Rory changes her mind about going to Chilton Lorelai tries to get her to see that she needs to go to Chilton to get into Harvard. She wonders in the fourth episode whether she was the one who decided on Harvard instead Rory.  It makes no sense that she wouldn't have found out what Rory needed to get to Harvard. The whole point of going to Chilton was for it. But then she drops the ball and doesn't research it? Its like the sudden panic in season two about extracurricular activities that Rory or Lorelai didn't know?  Or the third episode in season three when Rory fills out her application and they both are shocked to learn everyone had the same scores and extracurricular activities and that so many people wanted to get into Harvard from all around the world. They should already know this. Rory should have been doing different things in all three years at Chilton to impress Harvard. Not just the newspaper or the build a house after Paris told her that Harvard loves those things and run for vice president after Paris pointed out again Harvard loves those things. 

Edited December 12, 2018 by andromeda331

[andromeda331]

Watching Lorelai out of Water. I really dislike the whole weird plot with Lane's cousin James marrying a poor girl shipped over from Korea for him? The poor girl doesn't speak any English. Does she even have any say in any of this (I lean towards no). Its weird to have Lane and Rory talking about weddings and their boyfriends while doing the poor girl's makeup. I like them talking but wish they were doing something different. Or they made it seem like the bride was totally up for her marriage. Plus the fun story of Lane's cousin who attacked her horrible husband with a peeler and still married to him.  I do like Lane unable to say she liked Jess. It is weird that Rory tells her best friend its okay to not like Jess. Gee, Rory maybe you should think about it if you really do understand why your best friend hates your boyfriend. I didn't really like her tell Lane to try harder mostly because I doubt she told Jess the same thing. Maybe tell your boyfriend to stop being such a jerk Rory. Or wonder why your dating a jerk. After the wedding Lane invites Rory to bring Jess to the reception but of course Rory turns her down cause Jess doesn't do reception. Well, what does he do Rory? He can't suck it up for an hour or so while Rory and Lane continue to hang out? I also really hate in Swan Song at the end when Rory tells her mother she's thinking of sleeping with Jess, right after he lies to Rory about how got his black eye. I know Rory doesn't realize he lied (even though its a weird lie Jess throwing a football around? That doesn't sound like him) but its depressing she's thinking about sleeping with someone who just lied to her. And after Luke tried to give him advice. While I blame Rory for the fight at Emily's (although I do think he was being rude to Emily) because she wouldn't let it go and jumped to assuming he got in a fight with Dean and doesn't believe him to the point she goes to Dean and asks him. But thinks at the end of the episode after all that she's ready for sex with Jess. Really Rory? What exactly makes you think that? I guess that part is sadly consistent when she thinks its a great its a great idea to sleep with a married Dean next season. 

Edited December 12, 2018 by andromeda331

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

She was a teenager with raging hormones? I can understand this criticism if the behavior didn't end. After accepting the ill treatment for a long time, she reached her breaking point and put a stop to it. She had chances to revise the relationship but refused them all. It took its time, what a whole summer? But she reached the end of her rope

Perhaps, one of the reasons she's never looked back fondly on that relationship, was because she gave him a million chances all of which he squandered. 

[MatildaMoody]

On 12/12/2018 at 12:55 AM, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

 

She was a teenager with raging hormones? I can understand this criticism if the behavior didn't end. After accepting the ill treatment for a long time, she reached her breaking point and put a stop to it. She had chances to revise the relationship but refused them all. It took its time, what a whole summer? But she reached the end of her rope

 

But, Rory didn't put a stop to anything. Jess simply left and it ended. She didn't even get a say in the end of their relationship, it was just one more humiliation where he refused to tell her what was happening. And then, he was gone.

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

17 minutes ago, MatildaMoody said:

But, Rory didn't put a stop to anything. Jess simply left and it ended. She didn't even get a say in the end of their relationship, it was just one more humiliation where he refused to tell her what was happening. And then, he was gone.

Didn't he come back to ask her away? He didn't come on to her as late as season 6?

[Katy M]

54 minutes ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

Didn't he come back to ask her away? He didn't come on to her as late as season 6?

I think there's a difference between "putting a stop" to something and not picking something back up over a year later. Especially since she was busy sniffing around Lindsay's husband at the time.

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

Stupid me thinking the character would be given credit. 

Carry on

[readster]

On 12/13/2018 at 8:50 AM, MatildaMoody said:

But, Rory didn't put a stop to anything. Jess simply left and it ended. She didn't even get a say in the end of their relationship, it was just one more humiliation where he refused to tell her what was happening. And then, he was gone.

Yes, including his "silent phone calls". Where she even said to him on the last phone call right after graduation: "I could have helped you, you could have talked to me, but you didn't.  I think... I think I loved you and you didn't let me help you. Wherever you are, I  hope you figure things out." Then she hangs up and Jess is left looking like: "I guess I should have said something the last four times I called. Oh well, off to walk to my father's business on a spin off that is never going to happen." 

[Aloeonatable]

On 12/13/2018 at 7:08 AM, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

Didn't he come back to ask her away? He didn't come on to her as late as season 6?

IMO, Jess and Rory always had poor timing. When they were together in high school, he was too messed up and she was too skittish to be honest with him. It was in season 4 when he returned to Stars Hollow for his mother's wedding that he asked her to run away with him and she emphatically said no. I don't blame her, he wasn't in a good place. When he returned 2 years later she was involved with Logan. Jess and Rory, at that time, could have started something, but for Logan. She was the one who actually treated him disrespectfully at that time. 

 

On 12/11/2018 at 9:55 PM, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

Perhaps, one of the reasons she's never looked back fondly on that relationship, was because she gave him a million chances all of which he squandered. 

Do we know that she never looked back fondly on her relationship with Jess? In the revival they seem to be friends. 

[MatildaMoody]

On 12/13/2018 at 10:08 AM, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

Didn't he come back to ask her away? He didn't come on to her as late as season 6?

When he took off for California, that was the end of the relationship. That final phone call was like a period at the end of a sentence. His coming back and trying to get her to run away with him seemed much more steeped in ego than anything else. He assumed that she wanted what he wanted and that she had been sitting around waiting for him to get his act together. 

[Katy M]

11 hours ago, Aloeonatable said:

It was in season 4 when he returned to Stars Hollow for his mother's wedding that he asked her to run away with him and she emphatically said no. I don't blame her, he wasn't in a good place.

I wouldn't have blamed her if he was close to perfect. You don't drop out of college to run off with some guy.  If he can't stay where you are (or to some equal transfer like another ivy league school), he can wait 3 years for you to graduate.

11 hours ago, Aloeonatable said:

When he returned 2 years later she was involved with Logan. Jess and Rory, at that time, could have started something, but for Logan. She was the one who actually treated him disrespectfully at that time. 

Logan treated him disrespectfully, I don't recall Rory treating him disrespectfully.  Unless not dumping Logan for him would be considered disrespectful, which is ridiculous.

[marineg]

13 hours ago, Aloeonatable said:

Do we know that she never looked back fondly on her relationship with Jess? In the revival they seem to be friends. 

And it seemed that he wanted to be more than friends. I agree, I do not think she regretted being with him. She regretted him not opening up to her more, yes.

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

I wouldn't have blamed her if he was close to perfect. You don't drop out of college to run off with some guy.

I agree. I actually do not think that that was coherent with Jess as a character. As screwed up as he was at times, he always respected Rory's want of an education and applauded her dreams. When she was deciding which college to go to, he didn't pressure her into anything. The next episode, after she chose the school closest to him, he asked her again if she wan't regretting her decision not to go to Harvard or Stanford, schools which are considerably closer to him. He even said that he calculated the Yale-Stars Hollow distance. That shows that he was planning on being in Stars Hollow that following year. I don't think that the character he was before ASP decided she was gonna give him his own show and made him try to force himself on Rory (really, ASP?!) would have showed up at her door to take her far away from not only her school, her dreams, and potential future career, but also from all her SH friends, her mother, Luke, and her grandparents. Again, as screwed up as he was, I think that not only he, himself, would never ask that of Rory, but he also knew Rory enough to know she wouldn't go for that.

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

Logan treated him disrespectfully, I don't recall Rory treating him disrespectfully.  Unless not dumping Logan for him would be considered disrespectful, which is ridiculous.

I think they meant the fact that she showed up at his art show, toyed with Jess' feelings, and then announced that she was only there to make Logan jealous. Honestly, it was a bit of a d**k move on Rory's part. (not excusing any of Jess' prior behaviour, just looking at it from an unbiased angle).

[tarotx]

Rory impulsively went to Jess's open house. He assumed that Rory fixing things meant that she was single. He kissed her and Rory for a second let him. But she couldn't cheat on Logan no matter if he cheated on her. It was a kind of closing the circle started when she kissed Jess but was still with Dean and emotionally cheating on Dean for months afterwards.

That isn't Rory being disrespectful to Jess. She pushed away and tells him She's in love with Logan. She was honest and upfront.

Jess isolating Rory away from her support wasn't ooc for Jess. It was an extreme of this trait but it's something he always did. He's just usually successful. He dissed her family, her town and openly mocked and questioned what she and her boyfriend intelligently together. Jess liked to get in Rory's head but he rarely allowed for the reverse. This come to New York with him was Jess in his own way trying to open up but all Rory saw was more opportunity to feel unsafe. And Rory and Jess never talk about all the bad Jess did. S6 he wrote a book so all is supposed to be forgiving becaus he's a special guest star. 

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, marineg said:

I think they meant the fact that she showed up at his art show, toyed with Jess' feelings, and then announced that she was only there to make Logan jealous. Honestly, it was a bit of a d**k move on Rory's part. (not excusing any of Jess' prior behaviour, just looking at it from an unbiased angle).

I didn't remember that happening.  I just remember him showing up at her grandparents to show her his book and Logan giving him a hard time.  I haven't seen all the post-adultery episodes, so I apologize for commenting when not having all the info.

[andromeda331]

2 hours ago, marineg said:

 I think they meant the fact that she showed up at his art show, toyed with Jess' feelings, and then announced that she was only there to make Logan jealous. Honestly, it was a bit of a d**k move on Rory's part. (not excusing any of Jess' prior behaviour, just looking at it from an unbiased angle).

I agree that was a dick move. That's a crappy thing to do. 

[marineg]

On 17/12/2018 at 7:46 PM, tarotx said:

That isn't Rory being disrespectful to Jess. She pushed away and tells him She's in love with Logan. She was honest and upfront.

Well, she wasn't upfront, because had she been she would have told him from the get go that was still with Logan, or referenced him in anyway. She didn't push him away either. They kiss, and then she took a step back and apologised.

I'm going to copy here something I posted a while ago in another thread, because well, I'm lazy and it explains pretty well the situation.

---

Look at the clip. Rory is sitting in an empty room. Everyone has left. They are alone. Jess picks up a chair and sit right next to her, facing her. The chairs are so close they practically touch. Rory turns around to face him. They are so close, their knees are touching. As they talk, Jess leans in a bit. Their faces are about 12 inches apart. He asks if she fixed everything (in his mind, Logan) and she says yes (in her mind, Yale). He leans forward a bit more. They are only separated by a few inches, approximately 6. They look in each other's eyes for 5 seconds. Jess slowly leans in to kiss her. Rory tilts her head to kiss him. They kiss for 6 seconds before Rory pulls back. Then, they have this exchange.

RORY: I'm sorry.
JESS: About what?
RORY: Uh, about coming here like this. I just got the flier, and I don't know. I just wanted to see your place, but then this... it's not fair to you. I'm such a jerk.
JESS: I don't know what you're talking about.
RORY: And I couldn't even cheat on him the way he cheated on me.
JESS: Who? Who cheated on y…that guy? [Sighs] You're still with him.
RORY: Yeah.
JESS: I thought everything was fixed.
RORY: Everything but him.
JESS: I hate this.
RORY: You should. I'm sorry.
JESS: You came here alone, to Philadelphia.
RORY: He was out of town.
JESS: I don't deserve this, Rory.
RORY: No, you don't. You don't deserve it. I just... I'm in love with him. Despite all the bad he's done, I can't help it. I'm in love with him.

She didn't start the kiss. Yes. But Jess kept getting closer and closer, looking at her in the eyes with his I-Love-Rory look. She knew it was coming. She also knew that Logan was jealous of Jess, and put herself in a situation where she was alone in a room with him loving her, looking at her tenderly for a while before kissing her. Now, I'm not saying it's her fault or that she was "asking for it" (hate those words...). I'm saying that she knew what she was doing going to see Jess, she knew what Jess was doing, waiting for everyone to leave, sitting close to her, leaning in. She had a thousand opportunities to step back and say, "Look Jess, I love you, you're my friend, but I'm in a relationship." She didn't. And she knows that she has a part of blame to carry here. She apologises, she says she is a jerk, that she can't cheat on Logan as he cheated on her (he didn't). She takes the blame here. Yes, Jess initiated the kiss, but Rory is a smart girl. She knew what she was doing and what Jess was doing. And she did it anyway. She kissed him back. She saw him leaning in to kiss her and she tilted her head. She wasn't caught off guard. They kissed for 6 seconds. That may not sound like a lot in the grand scheme of things, but for a kiss, that's not just a peck.

[Kohola3]

2 hours ago, marineg said:

Despite all the bad he's done, I can't help it. I'm in love with him.

The classic statement used by abused woman everywhere.  I know he wasn't technically abusive but you'd expect better from Princess Rory.

[marineg]

13 hours ago, Kohola3 said:

The classic statement used by abused woman everywhere.  I know he wasn't technically abusive but you'd expect better from Princess Rory.

I agree with the statement and the fact that, if Rory really felt that way, she should have dumped him. However, I don't feel that Logan has done so much "bad". Okay, he slept with a couple of girls while they were broken up. There's nothing wrong there. Rory may have deluded herself into thinking that they were not broken up and therefore it was cheating, but if you don't call or hear from your BF/GF for 2 months, I'm pretty sure you're broken up. The words "we're over" may not have been exchanged but it doesn't change the fact. And if she really believed, during those 2 months, that they were still in a relationship, what kind of girlfriend would she be by not even attempting to communicate with Logan?

Anyway, back to Logan. Yes he was a jerk when Rory met him. She still pursued him and told him that she wanted a strictly sexual relationship at first. She knew who he was and was still along for the ride. You can't knowingly throw yourself into a relationship and later say that he is bad. Especially since he very much changed for the better during the relationship. It's not like, as @Kohola3 said, in an abusive relationship, when you later discover that your partner is actually an evil douche. Here, Logan only became a better person because of his relationship with Rory. 

The only thing that was a little bad... and even then, I don't consider it to be awful (disrespectful yes) is his criticizing of Honor's friends, with whom he'd had sex.

[Kohola3]

Logan was a supercilious ass who treated anyone without money with contempt.  He didn't care who he humiliated or how (Honor's friends, Marty, Jess) and used the family money to bail him out or fund his escapades (stealing the yacht, all of those stupid rich boy stunts) while making a big show of how much he hated his family.  Then the embarrassing, in front of everyone proposal and the "my way or the highway" ultimatum when he got turned down.

Sorry, I consider that bad in so many ways.

Quote

Here, Logan only became a better person because of his relationship with Rory.

And I can only assume you are leaving out the fact that he was a philandering cheater in the revival with Rory as his mistress.  No personal growth for either of them and they certainly were not better people. 

Edited December 19, 2018 by Kohola3
thoughts....

[coffeecoffeecoffee]

Yup, Rory's love interests were all pretty terrible. But then again so was Rory, even when the writers and their characters failed to acknowledge it. That's the thing about the revival imo - part of why it was unpleasant to watch was because it wasn't this out of character depiction of Rory but actually a more honest focus on who Rory has been since early on in the series. She cheats, she lies, she plays the victim rather than owning up to her mistakes and flaws, she's ungrateful and spoiled, she's passive and then takes the credit for her achievements while letting others take the blame for her mistakes, she needs to be worshiped and have every single thing go her way and then melts down completely when the world doesn't comply, and she's strangely lacking in real compassion and empathy for most people. The revival highlighted things about Rory that were always there but which used to be easier to avoid seeing. I'm not saying she's an evil irredeemable person, but she became an extremely hard character for me to like and cheer for. I disagree with the idea that Rory was ASP's fall guy/woman and scapegoat. Lorelai and Emily's flaws were much more directly acknowledged in the scripts and by other characters. Rory was still regarded as an angel, and not just by her adoring mother, but the whole town, Emily's DAR friends and nearly everyone else we were supposed to like. Even after the town found out that she cheated with Dean while he was married to Lindsay, the only minor repercussion was Lindsay's own mother being justifiably annoyed - and then the woman was promptly informed she was "out of line." It would have been interesting to see Rory's loved ones and the town that worshiped her really rethink who Rory is and help to hold her responsible for her actions, but that was one of many potential opportunities that the writers squandered.

Edited December 19, 2018 by coffeecoffeecoffee

[Katy M]

6 hours ago, Kohola3 said:

And I can only assume you are leaving out the fact that he was a philandering cheater in the revival with Rory as his mistress.  No personal growth for either of them and they certainly were not better people. 

I'm assuming the original commenter was.  I actually did see Logan as more mature at the end of the original series than when he was introduced.  But, I just realized something kind of weird.  Rory's first break up was when Dean first broke up with Rory because she didn't return an "I love you."  And her last break up was Logan breaking up with her because she wasn't ready to get married.   I find it weird because these two times are two of the few where I am unabashedly proud of Rory.  Don't let anyone pressure you into something you're not ready to do, Rory. That said, I also support any unmarried person's right to break up with someone for whatever reason.  It has to be right for both of you. OK, it's kind of stupid to break up with someone after 3 months just because they're not ready to say their first I love you, but Dean was young.  And, if Logan feels he's at a point in his life where he as to get serious and get married, well, then his feelings are just as valid as Rory's. Although, he still wasn't married at the beginning of the revival, right?  But, hey, things happen. Or don't.

[marineg]

7 hours ago, Kohola3 said:

Logan was a supercilious ass who treated anyone without money with contempt.  He didn't care who he humiliated or how (Honor's friends, Marty, Jess) and used the family money to bail him out or fund his escapades (stealing the yacht, all of those stupid rich boy stunts) while making a big show of how much he hated his family.  Then the embarrassing, in front of everyone proposal and the "my way or the highway" ultimatum when he got turned down.

I do agree about all the bad behaviour prior to them actually being together, and I admit, with Jess. But like I said in my previous post, he was like that when Rory met him. She knew who he was. Hell the very first conversation she had with him he was being an absolute a**hole to Marty. I don't excuse that behaviour. And again, he was like that with Jess and Honor's friends. But Rory knew that was a part of him, of his personality, and she fell in love with him while he was like that.

As to the proposal, I know there are two schools of thought on the matter and we'll just have to agree to disagree. I personally think that, apart from proposing in a public setting (which is actually my own personal worst nightmare) he handled the situation in the best way possible with what he was being given (or not given) by Rory. She asked for a couple days to think about accepting him or not, and her only offer was a long distance relationship even though she had no real reason to stay on the east coast. She had to know that that was the absolute opposite to what Logan wanted. I'm not judging Rory's decision not to marry him, she can do exactly as she wishes with her life, and I celebrate for knowing herself like that. But if she wanted to stay with him and not marry him, she should have offered a better alternative than a long distance relationship. By saying that, she basically told Logan that she would rather be living in her mom's house with no job prospects and him on the opposite side of the country than to open herself up to the idea of moving to SF and being with him.

 I don't think there was anyway Logan could have behaved differently. If you're in a relationship and the two people don't want the same thing, it's a dead end, and there is no point continuing something that will only hurt both people. But again, I respect your opinion.

7 hours ago, Kohola3 said:

And I can only assume you are leaving out the fact that he was a philandering cheater in the revival with Rory as his mistress.  No personal growth for either of them and they certainly were not better people. 

I honestly never think of the revival when I write on here. I think my brain is making me forget that whole ordeal. I do think however that the Logan at the end of S07 and Logan in the revival are different. In the revival he made so many mistakes, and so much of his personality reverted to him in S05. He was however serious about his work and professional life, which shows growth. But not in his personal life.

@coffeecoffeecoffee I agree with you. Rory is flawed, like any other human being. The only issue is that she/the show never acknowledges her mistake. She never displays guilt, and in the end, she's always right and victorious. And I don't think it's "good" to have that in a main character. We want to see her become a better person, to accept her flaws.

[Kohola3]

1 hour ago, marineg said:

But if she wanted to stay with him and not marry him, she should have offered a better alternative than a long distance relationship.

True except that's exactly what they ended up with in the revival.  But I hear you, I try and pretend that hot mess doesn't exist in any universe!

[andromeda331]

4 hours ago, marineg said:

As to the proposal, I know there are two schools of thought on the matter and we'll just have to agree to disagree. I personally think that, apart from proposing in a public setting (which is actually my own personal worst nightmare) he handled the situation in the best way possible with what he was being given (or not given) by Rory. She asked for a couple days to think about accepting him or not, and her only offer was a long distance relationship even though she had no real reason to stay on the east coast. She had to know that that was the absolute opposite to what Logan wanted. I'm not judging Rory's decision not to marry him, she can do exactly as she wishes with her life, and I celebrate for knowing herself like that. But if she wanted to stay with him and not marry him, she should have offered a better alternative than a long distance relationship. By saying that, she basically told Logan that she would rather be living in her mom's house with no job prospects and him on the opposite side of the country than to open herself up to the idea of moving to SF and being with him.

 I don't think there was anyway Logan could have behaved differently. If you're in a relationship and the two people don't want the same thing, it's a dead end, and there is no point continuing something that will only hurt both people. But again, I respect your opinion.

I disagree on Logan's part. I realize his life was coming together he was offered a job in San Francisco and wanted to marry Rory. But he decided all of that without asking or including Rory (I hate when people do that I hated when Luke brought Twickum house without telling Lorelai). It came after he told her not to worry about factoring him in at that time Rory thought he meant break up but no he assured her that wasn't case he wanted her to do what she needed to do. And he never tells Rory went he proposes that long distance relationship is no longer an option. Rory didn't know that when she said no their entire relationship was over. Logan was making all the decisions for both of them without Rory's asking or including Rory. Marriage, moving to San Francisco and working for one of their papers. Without considering maybe Rory isn't ready for marriage, maybe she doesn't want to move or work for any of those papers. Rory has never actually said anything about wanting to live on the West Coast. Or if she did. She would really want to think about it and do a pro con list.  What if Rory said yes but didn't want to move to San Francisco? Well, I doubt Logan's going to quit his new job and go where ever she ended up. Saying no doesn't always mean you want to end your relationship. Rory didn't she wanted to still be together but see where she ended up. Its not surprising for someone to do so. Maybe a year or two later or five Rory might be ready to marry Logan. But she wasn't then. Its only then she learns he doesn't want to do long distance. So now its no and the relationship is over or say yes to an proposal she knows she's not ready for. 

Quote

@coffeecoffeecoffee I agree with you. Rory is flawed, like any other human being. The only issue is that she/the show never acknowledges her mistake. She never displays guilt, and in the end, she's always right and victorious. And I don't think it's "good" to have that in a main character. We want to see her become a better person, to accept her flaws.

 

This I completely agree with. Early Rory was so much better. She cared about people and worried about making a mistake. She was a nice kid who loved books, school and worked hard. Later Rory? Wow, did she change for the worse. She is so completely self-obsorb, spoiled, thinks everything should be handed to her, cheats on her boyfriends and is completely horrible. And is never called out for it. Lorelai for all her flaws there was always Emily to call her out on stuff, Sookie and Luke also did call her out on stuff. No one ever called Rory out. The closest we ever got was Lorelai calling her out for sleeping with a married Dean to which Rory when to Europe with Emily and calling her out for dropping out of Yale over one person's critique. For that Rory moved out and with the grandparents starting with going to go crying to Richard and letting her grandparents take the blame for that and knowing what it would cost them for it. And that she never once apologize for. Once she moves out its never mentioned again. The whole thing was Rory's fault. From the way she behaved during the internship to unable to handle one person telling her she didn't have it. Rather then eat a tub of ice cream or get angry that she'll prove him wrong or realizing he's right she steals a fucking yacht. She's the one who goes crying to her grandpa after Lorelai didn't take her dropping out of school well and caused the split between her mother and her grandparents. She shows no sign that she gives a crap during the split. no sadness or remorse. We had Lorelai sobbing thinking she failed her. Nothing from Rory. Just like there's no real guilt or remorse from her affair with Dean which Lindsay found out (from Rory's letter) and was really hurt. She takes nothing from it or learns anything from it. She falls for another guy twice while with Dean. She didn't give a crap that Jess treated Dean like crap and was trying to break them up. She didn't give a crap that she shouldn't be mooning over Logan while dating Dean. Or realize that and end things with Dean. She never learns from anything and tries to do better.  The downside of the revival is now we know Rory never does become a better person. She never grows and outgrows many of her flaws or get back some of the great qualities she had as a teen. Its really not enjoyable to watch someone being a spoiled brat, making wrong decisions and never gets called out for it or learn from it. Early Rory was a really great kid. Being upset that everyone blamed Jess for the accident when she was partly responsible too. Being angry at Paris in Paris is Burning but still talking to her or writing a moving piece when Paris gave her a crappy story. She cared about people. She tried hard to help her mother and grandparents because she really wanted them to have a good relationship with each other. Watching her slowly breaking out of her shell and over come nerves from dating for the first time. She was a really cool kid. She had obstacles, nothing was handed to her, and she worked hard. And it was more fun to watch her overcoming them then it ever was watching her being a spoiled brat, entitled, and not get called on it or overcome it.   

Edited December 20, 2018 by andromeda331

[Katy M]

15 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

This I completely agree with. Early Rory was so much better.

I actually love pre-college Rory.  She wasn't perfect, no.  But, she had more good points than bad, IMO.  She started going downhill in college and sleeping with Dean was pretty much the last straw.  If she had felt bad about it afterwards, I would have felt better about it, but she went and did it the next day.  OK, she did try to leave for Europe and send dean a letter basically telling him to stay with his wife because she wasn't going to cheat with him any more, and it is fully on Dean that he didn't toss that out, but I still never really got the feeling that she did something wrong.   Had it not been for the yacht incident, I might have moved past it.  But, at that point, I just saw her selfish, entitled behavior as a pattern as opposed to out-of-characters mistakes which we all do from time to time.

[marineg]

3 hours ago, Katy M said:

I actually love pre-college Rory.  She wasn't perfect, no.  But, she had more good points than bad, IMO.  She started going downhill in college and sleeping with Dean was pretty much the last straw.  If she had felt bad about it afterwards, I would have felt better about it, but she went and did it the next day.  OK, she did try to leave for Europe and send dean a letter basically telling him to stay with his wife because she wasn't going to cheat with him any more, and it is fully on Dean that he didn't toss that out, but I still never really got the feeling that she did something wrong.   Had it not been for the yacht incident, I might have moved past it.  But, at that point, I just saw her selfish, entitled behavior as a pattern as opposed to out-of-characters mistakes which we all do from time to time.

I mean, I don't think that letter was in anyway a good idea. Yes, definitely Dean's fault if Lindsey found it. No arguing with you here (I can't stand Dean most of the show). But still. She slept with a married man, twice, declared her love, and then went on a luxurious all expenses paid trip to Europe, leaving a guilty and hurt Dean to deal with the situation alone. Again, he was absolutely in the wrong, but Rory shouldn't have left him like that. I honestly don't know how Dean could have dealt with the situation with the information he was given. He didn't really know where Rory was both physically and emotionally. Of course he should have told Lindsey, no doubt. But I get why he struggled. He didn't know whether he had a future with Rory or if he should stay with Lindsey, tell her and risk losing her, or stay silent and make their marriage work... Rory should have been more open and upfront. And then she reappears in the form of a letter. What did she think that was gonna do? She couldn't wait 3 more days to tell Dean face to face that she shouldn't be with him? And honestly, did she have to give so many details about the affair? Didn't she realise there was even a slight chance that Lindsey, or anyone else for that matter, was gonna read it?

After all that, and following a small blowout between Lindsey and Rory, and a 30 second fight between Lorelai and Lindsey's mom, the affair is brushed under the rug by literally everyone in SH and by ASP.

Same with the yacht incident. It is turned into a joke the next morning with Lorelai's bit a breakfast. Then into an excuse for Lorelai and her parents moment when they rally together. And then into a plot point for Rory to drop out and pretend she is actually a great worker. Oh, and a reason for all of her Yale friends to get trashed and party. At no point was she blamed. Even that trial was ridiculous. The fact that she thought she was better than everyone and that she didn't deserve a sentence worse than 50 hours of community service was laughable.

[andromeda331]

4 hours ago, Katy M said:

I actually love pre-college Rory.  She wasn't perfect, no.  But, she had more good points than bad, IMO.  She started going downhill in college and sleeping with Dean was pretty much the last straw.  If she had felt bad about it afterwards, I would have felt better about it, but she went and did it the next day.  OK, she did try to leave for Europe and send dean a letter basically telling him to stay with his wife because she wasn't going to cheat with him any more, and it is fully on Dean that he didn't toss that out, but I still never really got the feeling that she did something wrong.   Had it not been for the yacht incident, I might have moved past it.  But, at that point, I just saw her selfish, entitled behavior as a pattern as opposed to out-of-characters mistakes which we all do from time to time.

So do I. She wasn't perfect but she was a great kid who was shy, but also really nice. 

4 minutes ago, marineg said:

I mean, I don't think that letter was in anyway a good idea. Yes, definitely Dean's fault if Lindsey found it. No arguing with you here (I can't stand Dean most of the show). But still. She slept with a married man, twice, declared her love, and then went on a luxurious all expenses paid trip to Europe, leaving a guilty and hurt Dean to deal with the situation alone. Again, he was absolutely in the wrong, but Rory shouldn't have left him like that. I honestly don't know how Dean could have dealt with the situation with the information he was given. He didn't really know where Rory was both physically and emotionally. Of course he should have told Lindsey, no doubt. But I get why he struggled. He didn't know whether he had a future with Rory or if he should stay with Lindsey, tell her and risk losing her, or stay silent and make their marriage work... Rory should have been more open and upfront. And then she reappears in the form of a letter. What did she think that was gonna do? She couldn't wait 3 more days to tell Dean face to face that she shouldn't be with him? And honestly, did she have to give so many details about the affair? Didn't she realise there was even a slight chance that Lindsey, or anyone else for that matter, was gonna read it?

After all that, and following a small blowout between Lindsey and Rory, and a 30 second fight between Lorelai and Lindsey's mom, the affair is brushed under the rug by literally everyone in SH and by ASP.

Same with the yacht incident. It is turned into a joke the next morning with Lorelai's bit a breakfast. Then into an excuse for Lorelai and her parents moment when they rally together. And then into a plot point for Rory to drop out and pretend she is actually a great worker. Oh, and a reason for all of her Yale friends to get trashed and party. At no point was she blamed. Even that trial was ridiculous. The fact that she thought she was better than everyone and that she didn't deserve a sentence worse than 50 hours of community service was laughable.

I agree it was Dean's fault for not throwing out the letter. But why couldn't she wait three days until she was back home? She did leave Dean without a word and idea what she was thinking or feeling. She never really acts like she's sorry for the affair and Lindsay getting hurt. She basically sails out of it with zero empathy, zero stop and realize what she did or anything. Technically, she ends up with Dean but by that point she's already mooning over Logan. Same with the yacht and split between her mother and her grandparents. She never acts sorry for either of them. It would have made both at least better if she apologized for it. Felt bad for it. But she doesn't nor does she learn from it. She sails out of that situation with zero signs that any of it was really her fault, that she hurt people and zero signs she accepted any responsibility for it.  Early Rory would have apologized. She would have felt bad when she messed up and hurt someone. Not later Rory. She leaves the Grandparents house acting as if they are evil and were so horrible to her. Her entitled butt thinks she was the wronged party. Even though they took her in, paid all her expense, gave her the pool house and redecorated it, got her a job, and that only changed when they realizes she and Logan were having sex. Rory knows her grandparents she knew they would be upset about AND she knows why. But nope she's telling her mother she now knows what its like and why she left when she got treated very well. She's ready and happy to cut them off and doesn't care about speaking to them ever again in Friday Night's Alright for Fighting when she ends up going to dinner still doesn't think she did anything wrong. Her remark about not asking for things which Emily rightly points out she took it, she accepted. Your right she really does believe she is better then everyone, she shouldn't have to face any consequences no matter what she does or who she hurts. Its not fun to watch someone like that or root for them. Its equally not fun to watch no one ever calling Rory out for it. Early Rory was so much better. 

[Katy M]

2 hours ago, marineg said:

Same with the yacht incident. It is turned into a joke the next morning with Lorelai's bit a breakfast. Then into an excuse for Lorelai and her parents moment when they rally together. And then into a plot point for Rory to drop out and pretend she is actually a great worker. Oh, and a reason for all of her Yale friends to get trashed and party. At no point was she blamed. Even that trial was ridiculous. The fact that she thought she was better than everyone and that she didn't deserve a sentence worse than 50 hours of community service was laughable.

I can't even express how much I hate that breakfast bit.  Your daughter just committed a crime.  You don't even know what the punishment is going to be. It's not a laughing matter. Of course, she assumed correctly that it would be a slap on the wrist, because it was Saint Rory, but gee whiz, show some gravity so maybe she'll realize this is serious.

 

1 hour ago, andromeda331 said:

It would have made both at least better if she apologized for it. Felt bad for it. But she doesn't nor does she learn from it.

See, that's the thing.  She never learns from it.  And while it's her fault because she's old enough to learn without anyone's help, everyone around her enabled her not to.  As much as I like high school Rory, it started there.  She had that temper tantrum when she was late in the Deer Hutners episode.  OK, I don't hate Rory over that because I feel that was due more to stress and frustration than anything else.  The girl just snapped.  However, the rule was you're late you miss the test.  If you get to do make up work, it negates the rule.  Now, I'm not saying whether it's a good rule or not, but it was the rule and an exception was made for her.  Then, she joined that sorority or whatever and, again, I understand her frustration as none of it was her idea.  But, she didn't stand her ground outside the school and say she wasn't going in, so she should have shared in the punishment.  But, instead she makes a speech and the headmaster makes an exception for her.  Then, she skips school to see Jess on Lorelai's graduation day.  Again, this wasn't a good thing, but it was semi-out of character for her at the time.  We hadn't really seen her do a lot of purely selfish stuff at that point.  And, she did genuinely feel bad. But, I get the feeling that even though Lorelai said they would talk about punishment later, I don't know that there was any. And, other than Lorelai yelling at her for the wrong reasons after she spent the night out with Dean, there were no other ramifications from that.

So, this is how we end up with post-high school Rory.

[readster]

4 hours ago, marineg said:

After all that, and following a small blowout between Lindsey and Rory, and a 30 second fight between Lorelai and Lindsey's mom, the affair is brushed under the rug by literally everyone in SH and by ASP.

Same with the yacht incident. It is turned into a joke the next morning with Lorelai's bit a breakfast. Then into an excuse for Lorelai and her parents moment when they rally together. And then into a plot point for Rory to drop out and pretend she is actually a great worker. Oh, and a reason for all of her Yale friends to get trashed and party. At no point was she blamed. Even that trial was ridiculous. The fact that she thought she was better than everyone and that she didn't deserve a sentence worse than 50 hours of community service was laughable.

I still can't get over the fact that Logan a repeat offender on something like this just got off scott free and headed to Europe with no worries about his "girlfriend" while she faced all that crap either. You think the judge would have been: "I want Mr. Hutzberger's ass in my court now! I don't care who he is, this isn't the first yacht he has stolen with friends or other. Where the hell is he?" But oh no, apparently his family lawyer pleaded: "Boys will be boys." and that's the last we heard on it while Rory had to do the 300 hours of service and an apolgy. Logan, hey how's the sun by the Rivera?

[andromeda331]

12 hours ago, readster said:

I still can't get over the fact that Logan a repeat offender on something like this just got off scott free and headed to Europe with no worries about his "girlfriend" while she faced all that crap either. You think the judge would have been: "I want Mr. Hutzberger's ass in my court now! I don't care who he is, this isn't the first yacht he has stolen with friends or other. Where the hell is he?" But oh no, apparently his family lawyer pleaded: "Boys will be boys." and that's the last we heard on it while Rory had to do the 300 hours of service and an apolgy. Logan, hey how's the sun by the Rivera?

Neither do I. Why isn't didn't he get community service too? Or worse since he was a repeat offender? The Gilmore lawyer smooshed the lawyer prosecuting the case and gets a small amount community service that the judge throws out. Why didn't she throw the book at Logan? Throw out whatever deal the Hutzberger lawyer made with the same person prosecuting the case? She gives Rory a lecture (which I liked and agreed with) but then let's the other person involved in the case get off scot free? I do think its crappy that Logan just heads off on vacation. Can't he at least hang around the summer while his girlfriend is stuck doing community service for the crime they both committed.  

[readster]

1 hour ago, andromeda331 said:

Neither do I. Why isn't didn't he get community service too? Or worse since he was a repeat offender? The Gilmore lawyer smooshed the lawyer prosecuting the case and gets a small amount community service that the judge throws out. Why didn't she throw the book at Logan? Throw out whatever deal the Hutzberger lawyer made with the same person prosecuting the case? She gives Rory a lecture (which I liked and agreed with) but then let's the other person involved in the case get off scot free? I do think its crappy that Logan just heads off on vacation. Can't he at least hang around the summer while his girlfriend is stuck doing community service for the crime they both committed.  

That's what really made it a problem and his family had a history of this too. Granted, they grew up and moved on, however, Logan was netorious for these types of things and stealing a yacht or a boat or car was talked about in several episodes. Yet, He just heads off to Europe and the judge doesn't bat an eye. I get the judge's speech to Rory, because in a way it was also a way to tell her: "Don't be a dumb ass like your peers and realize this a stupid thing to do." Yet, Logan, I would have loved to have her tell him: "So, you think life is hard? You can do anything you want and so forth? Yeah, well you are paying for the entire plot, you are getting 500 community hours and if I ever see you in my court again, we are talking jail time. And say hi to your father for me and his hair cut is stupid!" 

[andromeda331]

35 minutes ago, readster said:

That's what really made it a problem and his family had a history of this too. Granted, they grew up and moved on, however, Logan was netorious for these types of things and stealing a yacht or a boat or car was talked about in several episodes. Yet, He just heads off to Europe and the judge doesn't bat an eye. I get the judge's speech to Rory, because in a way it was also a way to tell her: "Don't be a dumb ass like your peers and realize this a stupid thing to do." Yet, Logan, I would have loved to have her tell him: "So, you think life is hard? You can do anything you want and so forth? Yeah, well you are paying for the entire plot, you are getting 500 community hours and if I ever see you in my court again, we are talking jail time. And say hi to your father for me and his hair cut is stupid!" 

It would have been great to see Logan get told that and having to face real consequences. Something he's never actually to face. Mitchum wanted his son to grow up and stop doing that stuff. Well, why not let your son deal with the consequences Mitchum and then maybe he will. 

[coffeecoffeecoffee]

I've always felt like ASP bases her show in a deliberately exaggerated "corner of the world" (shout out to one of my favorite GG songs!) where class distinctions are much more pronounced and impactful than they actually are in modern society. That's not to deny that class differences and preferential treatment still exist, which obviously they do. But sometimes ASP makes the wealthy seem like a whole different species. To ASP, the wealthy inhabit a society more similar to the 1800s than the 2000s, with different laws and totally different beliefs and values around every issue. The wealthy people I've worked for are a lot more similar to us "working class" folk, interact with a much wider cross-section of society, and do have accountability to the law, though they can afford better lawyers more likely to cut their clients a favorable deal, lol. So it makes sense to me that ASP would write Logan as never even having to appear in court. I just block out most of what the show says about socioeconomic class and basic finance by now, lol. It's even worse when she tries to depict Rory as a plucky working class heroine instead of one of the more privileged characters I've ever seen on TV, but I'll save that rant for another post!

I wanted to say I agree with nearly every word you all write about Rory. But most of you won't agree with this unpopular opinion so please be merciful :-) Here it is: Despite Lorelai's many flaws, I think she was a good mom and much more cut out for motherhood than Rory. Rory is organized and will do most of the "right things", showing up on time to the kids' appointments and events, keeping track of where her child is, etc. When it comes to that aspect of parenting, she'll do fine. And since she's extraordinarily privileged whether or not the show will consistently acknowledge that, the child will be provided for. But when it comes to ethics and values, healthy communication and emotional connection, knowing when and how to be nurturing and when and how to be stern, I honestly think Rory will be an absolute train wreck as a mom. At least Lorelai has genuine warmth and resilience. Rory is a lot more detached and...whatever the antonym of "resilient" is. 

Thanks for letting me get that out!

[chessiegal]

1 hour ago, coffeecoffeecoffee said:

I've always felt like ASP bases her show in a deliberately exaggerated "corner of the world" (shout out to one of my favorite GG songs!) where class distinctions are much more pronounced and impactful than they actually are in modern society. That's not to deny that class differences and preferential treatment still exist, which obviously they do. But sometimes ASP makes the wealthy seem like a whole different species. To ASP, the wealthy inhabit a society more similar to the 1800s than the 2000s, with different laws and totally different beliefs and values around every issue.

This is so well said. It is a show written for entertainment, and for the most part ASP and DP do a very good job.

[tarotx]

I stand by my belief that Rory didn't disrespect Jess. Rory was hurting and went to see a friend's open house and he assumed she was there to rekindle a long over romance. She could have used a friend. 

We have no idea if Logan ever set foot in a court room. We didn't see Logan dealing with it. Logan's story arc is that "he grew up with all the money privilege, but he didn’t grow up with any freedom".  Rory was in front of the judge dealing with it because she made a plea deal. It's leniency disgusted the judge who didn't accept the deal and instead sentenced Rory to harsher terms.

One of Rory's story arc is that she wasn't raised in privilege until sophomore year in high school but became her mom made a deal with the devil to improve her daughter's chances of fulfilling their dream, Rory now lives with the consequences and responsibilities of privilege without any of the self awareness. If she understood she would have accepted Logan's lawyers.

Edited December 21, 2018 by tarotx

[marineg]

The Huntzbergers probably bought the judge or someone though. No way he wouldn't be sentenced otherwise. Then again we do have people raping women and getting away with it even though there is evidence so...

As for Rory, I definitely hate all of her selfish behaviour but I definitely blame everyone she grew up around. @Katy M, you are absolutely right. The problem isn't that she makes mistakes or has flaws, it's that the people around her forget. Not forgive, but plain old forget. The second they happen, they forget all of her mistakes, bad decisions, awful behaviour, and praise her for every decent and normal thing she does. She is praised as this brilliant girl, and while yes she is smart, she is probably not that much smarter than everyone at Yale. She is considered to be this perfect selfless angel who can do no wrong and spends her time thinking about others. I'm sorry, but she makes mistakes, and doesn't spend that much time thinking about their consequences on others. That's not perfect selfless angel behaviour.

Speaking of her smarts, remember how she graduated valedictorian from Chilton even though she actually got bad grades when she got to school? I hate that Paris didn't get the recognition she deserved. Because she deserved it. She worked her butt off, didn't have any real legitimate friends, all to get into a good college and have a great career. Rory wanted to be a journalist yet had not idea how to be a journalist nor how to become one. Rory had a great social life, had friends, boyfriends, ate out most of the time, was always out of the house hanging out with friends/the town. All that time she was hanging around SH, Paris was at home working because she never went out, had no real parents to speak off, and the only person who actually cared about her was her nanny/maid. I wonder how Rory had any time to actually do homework or study.

5 hours ago, coffeecoffeecoffee said:

Despite Lorelai's many flaws, I think she was a good mom and much more cut out for motherhood than Rory. Rory is organized and will do most of the "right things", showing up on time to the kids' appointments and events, keeping track of where her child is, etc. When it comes to that aspect of parenting, she'll do fine. And since she's extraordinarily privileged whether or not the show will consistently acknowledge that, the child will be provided for. But when it comes to ethics and values, healthy communication and emotional connection, knowing when and how to be nurturing and when and how to be stern, I honestly think Rory will be an absolute train wreck as a mom. At least Lorelai has genuine warmth and resilience. Rory is a lot more detached and...whatever the antonym of "resilient" is. 

I do want to remind everyone of the forbidden subject: the revival. Rory was a complete mess in that. The woman she was at the end of S07 is different from the woman in the revival. Had she been pregnant at the end of S07, I would have agreed with you: she is organized and will know how to provide for her kid. But post-revival? No. Let's be honest, she doesn't know who the father of that kid is (not shaming). She spent 2 years, or however long they were together, forgetting she had a boyfriend (Paul). She showed up at a job interview without having done any research or thinking of article ideas. She wrote a single good article in 10 years and tried to make it a career. Hell, she didn't have a freaking place to live, was couch-surfing, and never knew where her stuff was. And she was sleeping with an engaged man while in a long-term relationship herself. She was an absolute mess. 

Lorelai was always a great mother in my eyes. She provided for her kid without any help, apart for paying for her education. Based on her personality, who she was and not the actions ASP showed us, I don't think she would have let Rory get away with half of the shit she did. I do think that she had a strong opinion about right and wrong.

3 hours ago, tarotx said:

One of Rory's story arc is that she wasn't raised in privilege until sophomore year in high school but became her mom made a deal with the devil to improve her daughter's chances of fulfilling their dream, Rory now lives with the consequences and responsibilities of privilege without any of the self awareness. If she understood she would have accepted Logan's lawyers.

I don't agree. Rory was always raised in privilege. She was provided for, ate at restaurants most of the time. She alway had "fashionable" clothes and makeup, went to the movies, had friends, a town that loved her. She participated in the social life of the town, had boyfriends, had access to books and knowledge. She is absolutely privileged. Even before Chilton and Yale. And let's not forget that she was seeing her grandparents at least 4 or 5 times a year. Maybe not enough for a real relationship to be built, but enough for Rory to be introduced to the world of the rich since she was a child. And not just with her grandparents, but their friends too, who came for birthdays, Thanksgiving, Christmas, parties, work events... She knew how that world worked. ASP just wanted Rory and Lorelai to seem like they were better than all of that. That they could live their life with better morals and less money. That's why she didn't accept Logan's offer of a lawyer. I didn't grow up rich, but if my rich boyfriend offered me an all expenses paid lawyer after I crashed a boat, I would take it. Sometimes, you have to swallow your pride. But ASP never wanted Rory and Lorelai to swallow their pride in the face of money.

Edited December 21, 2018 by marineg

[Crs97]

Someone recently posted this old adage, and I am starting to think it applies here:

If you raise your kids, you spoil your grandchildren.  If you spoil your kids, you raise your grandchildren.

[peacheslatour]

54 minutes ago, Crs97 said:

Someone recently posted this old adage, and I am starting to think it applies here:

If you raise your kids, you spoil your grandchildren.  If you spoil your kids, you raise your grandchildren.

That is brilliant. Mind if I steal it?

[Crs97]

Isn’t it perfect?  Unfortunately it isn’t mine to give away, but I read it online so would think it’s meant to be used freely.  😁