One is the Loneliest Number: Unpopular GG Opinions

[Frelling Tralk]

It is a double standard that Lorelai wasn’t willing to discuss it more when Max raised concerns, but I don’t see the situations as exactly the same as Max wasn’t expected to just never communicate with Rory. I think that Lorelai of all people would have been fine with it if Luke had said that he didn’t really see her as April’s future stepmom, that she was simply his daughter to take care of, what made April an ongoing issue for them was that Luke kept April as this big secret that he didn’t want to share with her at all.

Okay he wanted the visits to involve just him and April hanging out which is perfectly understandable, but I still think it was very weird and over the top how he didn’t want Lorelai to have any relationship with April at all. It’s not normal to not even have a brief introduction between your partner and your kid when someone is an important part of your life and you’re planning to marry them, and that does lead to Luke later questioning whether he’s ready to get married at all when he’s not sure how April fits in with their lives. He has months to try and integrate Lorelai and April though, and he made no effort whatsoever, Lorelai would have never even known of April’s existence if it were up to Luke. That’s not really the same as Lorelai shrugging off why would Max think it was his place to discipline a 16 year old Rory. Lorelai never brought up disciplining April, she never suggested that she could be playing a parental role with her, she simply wanted to meet her partners kid and get to know her a little 

Edited June 12, 2018 by Frelling Tralk

[shron17]

1 hour ago, stan4 said:

So Lorelai is to blame bc she did not communicate effectively and convey her feelings honestly...but she's just supposed to magically know why Luke is being rude or  needing to take extra time or compartmentalize (basically be a total weirdo and jerk) re: April?

I don't think it should take magic to realize when your partner finds out they have a 12-year-old child it means a huge change for them and that they will need time to adjust.  Everybody is different and should be allowed to do what they need to do in a situation like this.  Luke wasn't trying to cut out Lorelai or to be a jerk, he was just handling things the best he could.  If he didn't care how it affected Lorelai he wouldn't have asked if she would be okay with postponing the wedding, with him going on April's field trip, etc. etc.  Since he did ask it makes sense that if she had let him know how she was really feeling, he would have figured out how to adjust what he was doing so that she would feel better.  In AVV when Luke realized she was upset about his complaining mood he stopped and became much more pleasant the rest of their trip.  It would have done them both a world of good to just be honest and talk about how this was affecting their relationship, what they might do to make it work better, and talk about the timeline.  Look how much better they both felt after they talked in AVV, even though they didn't go deep enough.  The thing that has always bothered me most was that Lorelai said now or never instead of we need to talk.

[stan4]

2 hours ago, shron17 said:

I don't think it should take magic to realize when your partner finds out they have a 12-year-old child it means a huge change for them and that they will need time to adjust.  

This statement kind of normalizes his behavior and no, I don't take it as a given that anyone discovering their daughter would suddenly put their entire life on hold and segregate themselves from their loved ones.

 

More normal would be being celebrating and inclusive, imo.

 

But if everyone is "different," as you correctly mention, then it behooves each of us to explain what we need instead of keeping everyone guessing about your nonsense.

 

You need to say, "What is normal for me is to put my life on hold and cut the most important person in my life out of my biggest life-changing event."  Yeah.  That needs to be spelled out.  Bc it is not normal.

 

As Sookie said, "You deserve to be mad.  Luke's been a real jerk, frankly; being mad at him makes all the sense in the world."

 

As for AVV, that episode was the perfect example of what a totally negative, insensitive guy Luke tends to be (and what's with crapping all over Logan?).  Lorelai had to yell at him for him to get that he was being horrible to be around.

 

 We have people here saying that she was pushing him too much, but we see that in order for him to even understand anything that's going on, someone has to beat it into his head.

[Anela]

8 hours ago, Frelling Tralk said:

I agree that Lorelai was being pushy and obnoxious in the gift-buying scene, but I think she was only trying so hard because she wanted to be included with April more, and so she saw that as her chance for them to pick out a gift together. Luke saying that he needs time to get to know his daughter is fine, but personally I think that he did owe Lorelai an explanation when it come to being so determined for the two of them to never meet. Yes he had every right to get to know April on his own terms, but he still had a responsibility to Lorelai as well as his partner. Luke having a daughter only became all about Lorelai’s feelings because he kept April hidden from her, he literally wanted Lorelai to only come by his apartment after April had left, he didn’t want Lorelai and April to physically meet at all, he didn’t even want Lorelai to know of April’s existence at first. That’s not okay when you’re in a relationship with someone imo, and it’s bound to cause tensions with anyone who is being kept at a distance like that 

I think that Lorelai would have been understanding and happy to give Luke space to get to know April if he had actually allowed the two of them to speak and meet up face to face, but also explained to Lorelai that he wanted to take his daughter on days out with just the two of them until he felt more comfortable in his new role as a father. Nothing unreasonable about that. Instead he was secretive and weird about it, and that was what really hurt Lorelai and drove her crazy. You see it in her response to Rory getting to casually meet April, you see it when she’s watching through the window as the rest of the town all hang out with April in Luke’s Diner while she’s forbidden to go near the kid, and Luke only finally explained his reasoning for keeping Lorelai away after she kept on pressing him on what the issue was. And personally I think his reasoning there was a little skewed, saying you need space to get to know your daughter one on one is one thing, but Luke’s behaviour basically boiled down to freezing Lorelai out completely because he feared that April would lose interest in him and end up preferring Lorelai. And that’s not a nice way to treat your partner 

I agree, it really isn't a nice way to treat her, and the thought that this continued after they got back together? I don't like it.

Lorelai was great with April and the other girls at her party. They got along, liked each other. There was no reason they shouldn't have been able to continue to get along - it wasn't her fault that Luke was being weird. I really don't like the idea of him continuing to shut her out.

[Frelling Tralk]

1 hour ago, Anela said:

I agree, it really isn't a nice way to treat her, and the thought that this continued after they got back together? I don't like it.

Lorelai was great with April and the other girls at her party. They got along, liked each other. There was no reason they shouldn't have been able to continue to get along - it wasn't her fault that Luke was being weird. I really don't like the idea of him continuing to shut her out.

It just comes across like Lorelai was pandering to Luke’s insecurities. Luke admitted that he kept the two of them apart because his fear was that Lorelai was more fun to be around than him, and so my guess is that Lorelai just steered clear of even attempting to bond with April in the end because she was so aware of his fear that April would end up liking her more, and feared Luke silently glowering at her.

[andromeda331]

13 hours ago, shron17 said:

I think Luke wouldn't have been so short with Lorelai if she hadn't already so thoroughly irritated him in the part of the conversation you left out e.g. see below.  He's just trying to pick out a gift for his daughter.  He knows he's not good at it but he wants it to come from him, and not be something he needs help with.  Also, Luke doesn't have to ask Lorelai if it's okay if he takes the time he needs to get to know his daughter.  And if Lorelai bothered to give Luke's situation a few minutes thought she would already know getting to know April is difficult for him.  If not, she could have bothered to ask and actually listen when he described how he's feeling without making Luke having a daughter all about her feelings, and not at all about Luke.

 

Sorry, I must have missed that post.  But there's really no comparison between the two situations.  Rory lived with Lorelai and her father didn't have much a presence in her life.  April lives with her mother and didn't need a mother figure.  I don't know why Lorelai doesn't have a bigger presence in April's life in the revival; maybe it's because she moved to New Mexico.  But I do understand why in season 6 Luke felt he needed to focus on learning to be a parent to a 12-year-old daughter and a co-parent with Anna, and wasn't able to encourage Lorelai to co-parent with him as well.  Also, even though Luke was a little bit of a father figure to Rory, Lorelai is always firmly in charge of any decisions concerning Rory, and we've never seen Luke try to interfere.

I don't know why she doesn't either. She really should and they should have some kind of relationship. April was thirteen when Luke and Lorelai got back together. They saw each other once a month and six weeks every summer. Probably some holidays too. For at least six years. The gift part annoyed me because for one Lorelai was right April wouldn't like the gift. She loved the one Lorelai swapped out. Its fine for Luke to pick out a gift for his daughter. By why shut down and not listen to someone who does know girls and knows exactly what they like? Lorelai knew of what fifty gifts that April would like?

This is what I hate about the April storyline. Luke and Lorelai don't act like themselves. Luke knows Lorelai is good at picking out gifts. She helped him pick out Rachel's birthday present and got her something Rachel would have liked. We don't see Luke thrown for a loop and doing the best he can while trying to get to know his daughter. No we see Luke who cuts out Lorelai, won't let her near his daughter, won't explain why or noticed Lorelai is suddenly very quiet and sad face. Why doesn't he explain to Lorelai he wants time just the two of them for now so they get to know each other? Tell her about his worries, insecurities since everyone has always left him before, worried he can't be a good dad like his late father, worried that he'll mess up like he thinks he did with Jess? Why doesn't he talk to Lorelai and get her advice? She does know about girls. Why not ask for suggestions about things he could do with April? Why doesn't Lorelai talk to Luke? Why isn't she allowed to ask about April? Give him support and help him figure out how to be a parent? Talk to him about suddenly becoming a parent.  

[Anela]

Luke stormed in, yelling at Logan, at Emily and Richard's wedding. He acted like her father. In response to a post further back.

[andromeda331]

24 minutes ago, Anela said:

Luke stormed in, yelling at Logan, at Emily and Richard's wedding. He acted like her father. In response to a post further back.

I did like Luke yelling at Logan and then Christopher. I love afterwards that Rory was more worried about Luke and Lorelai explaining to her that to him she's still ten year old who went around inviting everyone to a catapillar's funeral. It always reminds me of Father of the Bride who still sees his 22 year old daughter as a five year old girl in braids.  It just seems like such a dad response.  

[marineg]

8 hours ago, stan4 said:

 We have people here saying that she was pushing him too much, but we see that in order for him to even understand anything that's going on, someone has to beat it into his head.

Yes. Saying she is too pushy with Luke while also saying that she should have pushed more to be heard when it came to April....

And he was a complete jackass in AVV, not only to Lorelai, but especially to Logan, who was nothing but nice and gracious. Just because he saw him making out with Rory at the vow renewal? Reminds me of when he had the double date with Rory and Dean and was a complete jerk when Dean did nothing. (Dean was a jerk in other ways, but not that day)

[junienmomo]

On 6/12/2018 at 5:25 AM, Anela said:

I don't like shows where suddenly someone is rich, and they can do whatever they want/they're taken care of. Maybe it's part jealousy now, I'd love to come into a lot of money, but it's too convenient on shows. 

I agree on the way Lorelai talked about April getting a job, too (I think - I only watched the revival once), after Rory got to go twice, all paid for. Once sleeping in hostels, the second time in fancy hotels. So it was with her grandmother, but it was still a really nice Summer. Then she was grumpy, because she and Logan were supposed to travel around Thailand and other countries together, all paid for by him, I'm guessing. Lorelai got the $50,000 that Richard had put aside for Luke to expand his business, so that she could improve the inn, and not lose Michel. She could have given some money to April, if she's doing that well. She and Luke are supposed to be a team, and I would have thought she'd look at April as more of a daughter now. I guess not. :/ There was Luke, all proud of Rory, and Lorelai just didn't seem to feel the same way about April. I might not be remembering correctly. I know that someone will tell me if I'm not. 

I don’t know how to move this over to the Nitpicking thread, but I’ll try after it publishes. 

Lorelai behaved exactly the way she wanted to with April. I think the emotional distance was chosen by Lorelai.

 In their big argument, Luke said the previous eight years had been set up the way Lorelai wanted it, particularly finances, but also taking care of family. He spent those years doing everything she wanted, when she wanted, the way she wanted.

I don't know if it was meant to be penance, but it sure felt like it. Either that, or he chose doormat status to not take a chance on losing her again. Lorelai got exactly what she wanted from Luke and still moped around during AYITL. 

 

Nitpick:

What happened to the money in AYITL?

Lorelai wasn’t in a position to help Luke significantly if she couldn’t get a loan to open her spa. Thanks to Sookie’s flounce, the Dragonfly was not doing well. 

While I coundn't find the citation on Richard's bequest to Luke, I thought it  was significantly more than 50,000. In fact I thought it was like 400,000, but again no citation. You certainly can't build a new franchise on $50k. 

Where were bequests to Rory and Lorelai? I expect each of those to have been several multiples of Luke's bequest. 

Where was Luke's thriftiness? His diner was thriving as long as he kept the Wifi leeches out. April was not an elite high school person, so only public school fees. There was travel for him and April, but that's no budget buster. He spent eight years not saving for college after a lifetime of being a saver? 

[andromeda331]

30 minutes ago, marineg said:

Yes. Saying she is too pushy with Luke while also saying that she should have pushed more to be heard when it came to April....

And he was a complete jackass in AVV, not only to Lorelai, but especially to Logan, who was nothing but nice and gracious. Just because he saw him making out with Rory at the vow renewal? Reminds me of when he had the double date with Rory and Dean and was a complete jerk when Dean did nothing. (Dean was a jerk in other ways, but not that day)

He really was in that episode I don't like Logan either but he hadn't done anything during the episode for Luke to be such a jerk. If he had just complained to Lorelai before the trip not liking Logan that would had been fine. Heck Lorelai would have probably jumped in. But everyone was having a good time and he kept ruining it. Why? He couldn't have just relaxed and had fun? Even if it was just for Lorelai and Rory? I have mixed feelings about the double date. Yeah, he was a jerk but that would have been a good time for the show to remember its history and Luke was cheated on. His 'tude towards Dean could have would have made more sense if he was upset about that. He was cheated on and knows how that feels.  Maybe he tries to have a good time but its hard to pretend everything's okay sitting across someone who cheated on his wife.

[marineg]

13 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

He really was in that episode I don't like Logan either but he hadn't done anything during the episode for Luke to be such a jerk. If he had just complained to Lorelai before the trip not liking Logan that would had been fine. Heck Lorelai would have probably jumped in. But everyone was having a good time and he kept ruining it. Why? He couldn't have just relaxed and had fun? Even if it was just for Lorelai and Rory? I have mixed feelings about the double date. Yeah, he was a jerk but that would have been a good time for the show to remember its history and Luke was cheated on. His 'tude towards Dean could have would have made more sense if he was upset about that. He was cheated on and knows how that feels.  Maybe he tries to have a good time but its hard to pretend everything's okay sitting across someone who cheated on his wife.

Definitely. I think that in the double date episode, we know where he is coming from, but the only way he expresses himself is by being a jerk over Dean "hogging" the popcorn or holding Rory's hand. Yes, he knew that Dean had feelings for Rory before and while he was married. But Luke never said anything. He knew from Dean's bachelor party that the marriage wouldn't last. He told Rory not to go to the wedding. But, as you say having had the experience of being married under the wrong circumstances and being cheated on, he could have tried to have a talk with Dean, seen if his reasons were good enough to be married, if he really loved Lindsay, and telling him that he should let Rory go or not to hurt Lindsay in his quest to find himself... Yes, Dean is to blame 100% for the cheating thing. But Luke could have intervened at ant time, especially since Dean was in his house the day off. Having that knowledge the day before a wedding and not doing anything about it? You can't complain afterwards.

[andromeda331]

7 minutes ago, marineg said:

Definitely. I think that in the double date episode, we know where he is coming from, but the only way he expresses himself is by being a jerk over Dean "hogging" the popcorn or holding Rory's hand. Yes, he knew that Dean had feelings for Rory before and while he was married. But Luke never said anything. He knew from Dean's bachelor party that the marriage wouldn't last. He told Rory not to go to the wedding. But, as you say having had the experience of being married under the wrong circumstances and being cheated on, he could have tried to have a talk with Dean, seen if his reasons were good enough to be married, if he really loved Lindsay, and telling him that he should let Rory go or not to hurt Lindsay in his quest to find himself... Yes, Dean is to blame 100% for the cheating thing. But Luke could have intervened at ant time, especially since Dean was in his house the day off. Having that knowledge the day before a wedding and not doing anything about it? You can't complain afterwards.

Luke definitely should have tried to talk to Dean. He did just get married for the wrong reasons. He should have asked Dean if he really wanted to marry Lindsay. If so why the remark about Rory the night before? If he was still in love with Rory did he really think marrying Lindsay was the right thing to do? If it was fair to Lindsay. I know Luke doesn't like to get involve but he had information and should have tried to talk to Dean. Its still on Dean if he chose to get married. It was still on him for deciding to get married after making a remark about Rory the night before his wedding, and still chose to go through with it.  Its on Dean for cheating on his wife.  

[Frelling Tralk]

6 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

The gift part annoyed me because for one Lorelai was right April wouldn't like the gift. She loved the one Lorelai swapped out. Its fine for Luke to pick out a gift for his daughter. By why shut down and not listen to someone who does know girls and knows exactly what they like? 

Yeah I think that Lorelai was a bit tactless about Luke’s gift for sure, but I don’t see what was so wrong with her gently pushing him to pick something else out with her help when his gift was obviously something that a 13 year old girl wouldn’t really like, and it is supposed to be about April and what she would like for her birthday, not that oh April would prefer to have a gift that her dad picked out all by himself. I don’t think that getting a crappy gift from a relative really works like that, we’ve all been stuck with something that we don’t really want, and would have surely appreciated it if a younger female friend had had a quiet word about what a young girl might actually be interested in

We saw the same with April’s birthday party, Luke was determined to do it all by himself because he’s her dad and everyone else back off, but that only led to the party being a total disaster for April and everyone having a miserable time until Luke finally agreed to get Lorelai involved. Lorelai was clearly coming at it from a place of concern and not wanting Luke to embarrass himself with April (and let’s face it, the audience all knew that a thirteen year old was not going to get excited about a toiletry gift), but he was just so needlessly touchy about everything.

Okay it’s tough for anyone to adjust to suddenly finding out they had a kid they never knew about, but Luke handled it it the worst possible way with the way he kept Lorelai at arms length, refusing to explain his thought process until she dragged it out of him

[Crs97]

1 hour ago, Frelling Tralk said:

Yeah I think that Lorelai was a bit tactless about Luke’s gift for sure, but I don’t see what was so wrong with her gently pushing him to pick something else out with her help

Because she wasn’t gentle.  She was rude and mocking and “you’re an idiot” about it, which made Luke defensive.  That was his whole point.

If I were trying to begin a relationship with my new-found dad, I would probably be more touched that he worked hard to pick me out something bad (we could spend time returning it together and choosing the follow up gift) than being told my fiancee chose it for me because, let’s face it, Lorelai would have used it as a bonding moment with April (“You wouldn’t believe the gift your dad wanted to get you at first. Ha ha!”)

[Taryn74]

6 minutes ago, Crs97 said:

If I were trying to begin a relationship with my new-found dad, I would probably be more touched that he worked hard to pick me out something bad . . . than being told [his] fiancee chose it for me

Totally agree.

[Katy M]

19 hours ago, Taryn74 said:

Mid-thirties?  Did Amy even watch her own show?  >_<

It was stated that Lorelai had Rory when she was 16, Rory had her 21st birthday, so that would make Lorelai 37, which I would consider still mid-thirties.

18 hours ago, ghoulina said:

I think it's interesting that Lorelai was so hurt about Luke not letting her get involved with April, when she basically told Max he was to have no involvement with Rory. Not saying either of them are right, but Lorelai seems to suffer from extreme tunnel vision sometimes. 

She didn't tell Max he wasn't allowed to talk to Rory or have a relationship.  Just that she was pretty much done being raised.

[shron17]

1 hour ago, Frelling Tralk said:

Yeah I think that Lorelai was a bit tactless about Luke’s gift for sure, but I don’t see what was so wrong with her gently pushing him to pick something else out with her help when his gift was obviously something that a 13 year old girl wouldn’t really like, and it is supposed to be about April and what she would like for her birthday, not that oh April would prefer to have a gift that her dad picked out all by himself. I don’t think that getting a crappy gift from a relative really works like that, we’ve all been stuck with something that we don’t really want, and would have surely appreciated it if a younger female friend had had a quiet word about what a young girl might actually be interested in

No, it's not about April getting what she wants for her birthday.  It's about Luke and April forming a relationship, going from being two people who know very little about each other to learning to feel like father and daughter.  It's a process of both them getting to know the other that can only be helped by being authentic, even when they make mistakes.

[Frelling Tralk]

Luke clearly did not want the gift and the birthday party to fail and for him to be the uncool dad who didn’t get his daughter though, it did matter to him what April wanted and it was very important for him to get it right, so I think that Lorelai was coming from the right place in suggesting that she could help Luke out with making it a success if they go shopping together. I just don’t see how it’s better for Luke to pick out a bad gift by himself, and struggle with a bad birthday party by himself, but somehow a 13 year old girl is going to find that more endearing than her Dad and his partner presenting her with a really cool gift and a party that she actually wants. We see in the episode that Luke was struggling and really embarrassed when his party didn’t connect with April and her friends, and April didn’t exactly come off as it’s cute that he’s her dad and he’s at least trying, she was ultimately much happier after Lorelai got involved and made it an actual hit 

I see it as similar to the lack of relationship between Lorelai and April quite honestly, I think it’s a real shame that the implication is that Luke’s issues prevented them from ever getting close. Lorelai was always great with kids, as shown in the birthday episode, and she and April could have had a close stepmom relationship with Lorelai being someone else for April to confide in, and I’m sure that Lorelai too would have enjoyed having a young teenage girl to co-parent with Luke. Heck she brings up surrogacy in the revival because she feels that she and Luke lost out in not raising a child together, they could have easily co-parented April without it needing to be a big deal, but Luke always had to insist on April being ‘mine’ and back off, which led to Lorelai walking on eggshells around his daughter. And it wasnt just in the first few months when Luke was still just getting to know April, Lorelai and April are incredibly stiff and uncomfortable around one another in the revival still, but apparently that’s okay because Luke is April’s dad and that’s the way he wants it? It might be best for Luke to try and do everything by himself, but that’s not always what’s best for the people in his life, and I think that both April and Lorelai lost out over not forming a closer bond 

Edited June 13, 2018 by Frelling Tralk

[Crs97]

35 minutes ago, Katy M said:

She didn't tell Max he wasn't allowed to talk to Rory or have a relationship.  Just that she was pretty much done being raised.

Done at 16?!?!?  Silly Lorelai!

[readster]

Quote

It might be best for Luke to try and do everything by himself, but that’s not always what’s best for the people in his life, and I think that both April and Lorelai lost out over not forming a closer bond 

That's how I always saw it, not with Lorelai being: "I make everything awesome and don't you forget it." Just Luke after how many years of thinking like this is what made things backfire in his life CONSTANTLY! Nicole, Jess, Lorelai, hell even Taylor and Kirk. If Luke would have stopped being: "It's my problem and I will deal with it because I alone can fix it, because I've always done it that way." Is what lead to everyone walking all over him all these years. He bailed Liz out how many times? Even when he took in Jess, he never once said: "Liz stop being a dumbass, getting high and sleeping with guys left and right. Go live homeless because I'm tired of bailing you out!" Just like: "Taylor, get over yourself? You act like Hitlor with a real estate license and everyone just lets you do it. You are so obsessed with having a legacy, maybe you should have had kids instead of mind controlling Kirk all these years?" Or with Kirk: "And when you mom is dead then what is going to be your excuse?" 

[Crs97]

Another UO I have is about that party for April.  Didn’t he shut down the diner for them?  As I recall they were sitting around bored.  These weren’t young kids.  How is it that none of the teenagers asked if they could take a tour or even make something in his kitchen (that would have been nirvana for me)?   Bake cookies, make your own pizzas, learn how to fry up burgers and fries with the professional equipment . . . Most people I know would think that was very cool.  They were across from town square on a nice day, but didn’t think to ask about heading outside?  They were next door to an ice cream/candy store, but didn’t ask about heading there?  At that age, they would know how to make the party fun and didn’t need an adult to feed them ideas.

[Frelling Tralk]

1 hour ago, Crs97 said:

If I were trying to begin a relationship with my new-found dad, I would probably be more touched that he worked hard to pick me out something bad (we could spend time returning it together and choosing the follow up gift) than being told my fiancee chose it for me

I just don’t see it going that way, it was way too early in their relationship for either of them to feel comfortable with April suggesting that she exchange it and just pick something out herself. There’s no way that Luke would have laughed it off, he was such a touchy person that he would have been absolutely crestfallen and silently been beating himself up if April had had a meh response to his gift 

And I just looked up the episode transcript, and while I agree with those saying that Lorelai was very blunt about Luke’s choice in gifts, it wasn’t like she was dismissing a gift that he had already brought and she got herself involved without being asked. The two of them were window shopping when he *asked* her what she thought about the toiletry kit as a gift idea, she answered honestly that it wasn’t quite right, and then only later elaborated on it being a weird gift idea, too hygienic etc when he stubbornly dug his heels in and decided that it was the perfect gift

LUKE: [pointing to a window display] Hey what do you think of that?

LORELAI: What?

LUKE: The toiletry kit.

LORELAI: What? And throw away the 5-year-old Dixie cup you use to hold your toothbrush? It’s historical.

LUKE: I mean as a birthday present for April.

LORELAI: April who?

LUKE: Come on, it's cute.

LORELAI: Um, yeah. I don't think it's quite right.
 

Yeah she gets ruder after Luke keeps insisting that he picked out the right gift, but Luke himself recognised deep down that it wasn’t right, he later panicked when April was about to open it and suggested waiting. He was clearly relieved when it turned out that Lorelai had replaced it with more personal gifts that actually spoke to who April was (The new "way things work”, and a gift certificate to the discovery store). It wouldn’t have been that hard for him to listen to what Lorelai was saying and put a little more thought into the gift, instead it came across like he only wanted to go with the first gift idea he thought of because Lorelai didn’t think that it was the right one, and :puffs chest: he knows his kid better than Lorelai  

 

And the girls were all nervous at the party originally because Luke sat them down and listed a bunch of rules about staying in the ‘party area’, so they all ended up very nervous and asking for permission to go to the bathroom, and Luke is taken-aback and said he didn’t mean to say that they couldn’t use the bathroom.

LUKE: So, this is the party area. You are to remain in the party area at all times. The kitchen is strictly off limits. Under no circumstances are you to enter the kitchen. It's incredibly dangerous back there. [The girls look a little worried] One turn of the wrong dial, you could burn your face off. And I've got so many knives back there, you so much as trip, you could lose an arm. You could chop off a bunch off fingers. You could poke out an eye. And do not go upstairs. That is not part of the party area. Everyone must remain in the party area at all times. And finally, do not go outside. I will not give anybody permission to go outside, okay? Are we clear?

Part of the problem there was that he just didn't know how to loosen up around young kids 

[andromeda331]

11 minutes ago, Frelling Tralk said:

I just don’t see it going that way, it was way too early in their relationship for either of them to feel comfortable with April suggesting that she exchange it and just pick something out herself. There’s no way that Luke would have laughed it off, he was such a touchy person that he would have been absolutely crestfallen and silently been beating himself up if April had had a meh response to his gift 

And I just looked up the episode transcript, and while I agree with those saying that Lorelai was very blunt about Luke’s choice in gifts, it wasn’t like she was dismissing a gift that he had already brought and she got herself involved without being asked. The two of them were window shopping when he *asked* her what she thought about the toiletry kit as a gift idea, she answered honestly that it wasn’t quite right, and then only later elaborated on it being a weird gift idea, too hygienic etc when he stubbornly dug his heels in and decided that it was the perfect gift

LUKE: [pointing to a window display] Hey what do you think of that?

LORELAI: What?

LUKE: The toiletry kit.

LORELAI: What? And throw away the 5-year-old Dixie cup you use to hold your toothbrush? It’s historical.

LUKE: I mean as a birthday present for April.

LORELAI: April who?

LUKE: Come on, it's cute.

LORELAI: Um, yeah. I don't think it's quite right.
 

Yeah she gets ruder after Luke keeps insisting that he picked out the right gift, but Luke himself recognised deep down that it wasn’t right, he later panicked when April was about to open it and suggested waiting. He was clearly relieved when it turned out that Lorelai had replaced it with more personal gifts that actually spoke to who April was (The new "way things work”, and a gift certificate to the discovery store). It wouldn’t have been that hard for him to listen to what Lorelai was saying and put a little more thought into the gift, instead it came across like he only wanted to go with the first gift idea he thought of because Lorelai didn’t think that it was the right one, and :puffs chest: he knows his kid better than Lorelai  

 

And the girls were all nervous at the party originally because Luke sat them down and listed a bunch of rules about staying in the ‘party area’, so they all ended up very nervous and asking for permission to go to the bathroom, and Luke is taken-aback and said he didn’t mean to say that they couldn’t use the bathroom.

 

 

Part of the problem there was that he just didn't know how to loosen up around young kids 

And that he thought April would be happy with sitting around the diner playing cards. He got a cake and that was it.  Really what kid boy or girl would find that fun? 

[Taryn74]

2 hours ago, Katy M said:

It was stated that Lorelai had Rory when she was 16, Rory had her 21st birthday, so that would make Lorelai 37, which I would consider still mid-thirties.

Well Lorelai was closer to 38 when April came on the scene, which personally I would consider late 30s, but that doesn't really matter since in my comment I was referring to Luke, who would have been at best early-40s when he found out about April.  It was never established (as far as I know) exactly how much older he was than Lorelai, but they certainly aren't the same age.  ASP said they were "two mid-30s people" which is a far cry from one mid- to late- 30s and one early- to mid- 40s.

[ghoulina]

4 hours ago, Crs97 said:

Because she wasn’t gentle.  She was rude and mocking and “you’re an idiot” about it, which made Luke defensive.  That was his whole point.

If I were trying to begin a relationship with my new-found dad, I would probably be more touched that he worked hard to pick me out something bad (we could spend time returning it together and choosing the follow up gift) than being told my fiancee chose it for me because, let’s face it, Lorelai would have used it as a bonding moment with April (“You wouldn’t believe the gift your dad wanted to get you at first. Ha ha!”)

I agree, 100%. It sounds cliche, but "it's the thought that counts".

Lorelai didn't know April very well at all. So the idea that she was any better equipped for picking out a gift for her is silly, to me. Sure, she knows teenage girls better than Luke. But, for one, April isn't a typical teenage girl. I just hate her arrogance when it comes to kids/parenting. She never approaches it humbly. If she was truly, 100%, just trying to help, she wouldn't act like such a know-it-all. 

I think Luke might have considered something else if Lorelai hadn't tried to steamroll him like that. It DID make him defensive and buckle down. Luke definitely had a lot to learn, but I didn't find her manner supportive at all. 

[Frelling Tralk]

16 minutes ago, ghoulina said:

Lorelai didn't know April very well at all. So the idea that she was any better equipped for picking out a gift for her is silly, to me. Sure, she knows teenage girls better than Luke. But, for one, April isn't a typical teenage girl. I just hate her arrogance when it comes to kids/parenting. She never approaches it humbly. If she was truly, 100%, just trying to help, she wouldn't act like such a know-it-all. 

I mean I don’t disagree that Lorelai was being too pushy, but I do think that she meant well. I don’t think it was about just trying to help,  I think that she was desperate to connect with Luke and finally have a part to play with April, so she just got carried away when here was something that she could really help Luke out with and they could pick something together. She comes across as more desperate than know-it-all to me when she pleads that c’mon I could really help you out here. And instead Luke did his usual thing of freezing her out, I’m her dad and I have to do this alone. 

Lorelai might not have always gone about things the right way, but Luke was not being supportive of Lorelai either when they were supposed to be a partnership. Regardless of Luke being new to being a dad and still feeling his way, it really shouldn’t have been that big a deal for an adult to laughingly tell her partner that no you’re on the wrong track here, as someone who knows teenage girls let me help you out. Instead Luke made everything into a bigger deal than it needed to be, and that was because of his own weird issues with April and Lorelai possibly forming a stronger connection than his own relationship with April     

And frankly, with everything that had been going on with Luke keeping April a secret,  it would have come across as incredibly passive-aggressive if Lorelai had instead shut up and said that I’m sure that you know your daughter best, I’ll leave it to you 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Taryn74 said:

Well Lorelai was closer to 38 when April came on the scene, which personally I would consider late 30s, but that doesn't really matter since in my comment I was referring to Luke, who would have been at best early-40s when he found out about April.  It was never established (as far as I know) exactly how much older he was than Lorelai, but they certainly aren't the same age.  ASP said they were "two mid-30s people" which is a far cry from one mid- to late- 30s and one early- to mid- 40s.

38 is YOUNG. You cannot convince me otherwise.

[Taryn74]

51 minutes ago, deaja said:

38 is YOUNG. You cannot convince me otherwise.

Ha ha ha point taken!  (Since I'm firmly mid-40s myself, I'll take it.)

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Taryn74 said:

Ha ha ha point taken!  (Since I'm firmly mid-40s myself, I'll take it.)

I may be 38 and refusing to accept facts. So my unpopular opinion is that 38 is the new 25. ;)

[stan4]

6 hours ago, Crs97 said:

 

If I were trying to begin a relationship with my new-found dad, I would probably be more touched that he worked hard to pick me out something bad (we could spend time returning it together and choosing the follow up gift) than being told my fiancee chose it for me 

I think that totally depends on the kid.

 

Some kids yes.  For some, that concept is still not on their radar.  It's a fairly mature concept.

I think April would have been touched and diplomatic.

[shron17]

7 hours ago, Frelling Tralk said:

Luke clearly did not want the gift and the birthday party to fail and for him to be the uncool dad who didn’t get his daughter though, it did matter to him what April wanted and it was very important for him to get it right, so I think that Lorelai was coming from the right place in suggesting that she could help Luke out with making it a success if they go shopping together. I just don’t see how it’s better for Luke to pick out a bad gift by himself, and struggle with a bad birthday party by himself, but somehow a 13 year old girl is going to find that more endearing than her Dad and his partner presenting her with a really cool gift and a party that she actually wants.

You misunderstand what I'm trying to say.  Luke is trying to build a relationship with his daughter, not just for him but for her too.  Relationships are made up of lots of little moments where you can see clearly who the other person is.  Sure, letting Lorelai pick out the gift would have pleased April more in the short-term but would have done nothing to help build that relationship.  April is certainly going to appreciate in time that Luke made the effort to be as personally involved in her life as possible.  And it seems clear to me that Luke really wanted to choose April's gift, not that he thought it had to be perfect.  He even said he would get her a backup gift if this one wasn't right.

8 hours ago, Frelling Tralk said:

It might be best for Luke to try and do everything by himself, but that’s not always what’s best for the people in his life, and I think that both April and Lorelai lost out over not forming a closer bond 

It kind of sounds like you're saying Luke should have not done the things he needed to do to build a close relationship with April so that Lorelai could have had one.  That's just sad.

3 hours ago, Frelling Tralk said:

Lorelai might not have always gone about things the right way, but Luke was not being supportive of Lorelai either when they were supposed to be a partnership.

This is where the difference of opinion lies.  As far as April goes, Luke and Lorelai are not a partnership, at least not yet.  And again, it's up to Luke when to start including her in their relationship, not Lorelai.  Yes, Luke has made mistakes and handled some of it very badly but that doesn't automatically mean Lorelai gets to call all of the shots in his life.  You know, we heard Sookie ask Lorelai how Luke was doing, and we heard Jess ask Luke.  Never once did Lorelai ask him how he was doing, was there anything she could do to help, what did he need.  Instead she decided what he needed and then got hurt when he didn't accept her offer.  She couldn't even be bothered to be honest when he asked if she was okay.  I think that's the kind of support he could have used.

4 hours ago, Frelling Tralk said:

And frankly, with everything that had been going on with Luke keeping April a secret,  it would have come across as incredibly passive-aggressive if Lorelai had instead shut up and said that I’m sure that you know your daughter best, I’ll leave it to you 

That certainly would have made it clear she was angry.  How about if she just said, "Yeah, that's nice.  But there's a store a few blocks down where I've seen some great stuff.  Do you want to check it out before you decide?  We could always come back."  And if Luke said no, he's sure he wants this, then drop it.

[Anela]

3 hours ago, Taryn74 said:

Ha ha ha point taken!  (Since I'm firmly mid-40s myself, I'll take it.)

I'm 43, and am kind of in denial. I see these adverts for women over 40, and a minute later I'll think, "Oh, s**t, that's me!" 

[Kohola3]

8 minutes ago, Anela said:

"Oh, s**t, that's me!" 

Wait until you start seeing commercials that target the elderly - hearing aids, walk in tubs, I've fallen and I cat't get up....

Those "oh, s**ts" start to add up.  I can't believe they mean me.

[Frelling Tralk]

2 hours ago, shron17 said:

You misunderstand what I'm trying to say.  Luke is trying to build a relationship with his daughter, not just for him but for her too.  Relationships are made up of lots of little moments where you can see clearly who the other person is.  Sure, letting Lorelai pick out the gift would have pleased April more in the short-term but would have done nothing to help build that relationship.  April is certainly going to appreciate in time that Luke made the effort to be as personally involved in her life as possible.  And it seems clear to me that Luke really wanted to choose April's gift, not that he thought it had to be perfect.  He even said he would get her a backup gift if this one wasn't right.

But I still don’t see why letting Lorelai get involved in April’s birthday would have a detrimental effect on her building a relationship with Luke. Lorelai ended up picking out the science-related gift in the end anyway, and Luke was panicking at first when April was about to open his present, and then relieved and thanking Lorelai for replacing it with something more thoughtful, so it clearly *did* matter more to him to have the perfect gift and to give April a birthday to remember 

And those gifts were something that Luke and Lorelai could easily have shopped for together and discussed what April might like, with Luke realising that oh yeah something to do with science could be a cool idea actually, April does seem very into that stuff, rather than Luke stubbornly sticking with the generic toiletry kit because it had cats on it. That would have helped him get to know April better exactly? All that would have led to would be an embarrassing moment of April opening his gift and staring blankly at it, trying to cover up her disappointment, and Luke feeling like a total screw-up

Quote

It kind of sounds like you're saying Luke should have not done the things he needed to do to build a close relationship with April so that Lorelai could have had one.  That's just sad.

I’m saying that Luke didn’t need to freeze Lorelai out in order to build a close relationship with his daughter, that he didn’t need to refuse to allow Lorelai to meet April, that he didn’t need to hide April’s existence from Lorelai in the way that he did. Lorelai rightly points out that he’s being ridiculous to say that it’s just a fact that April will lose all interest in him as soon as she meets Lorelai, that was not how it was going to work when Luke was her newly found father. Luke could still have had one to one meetings with April and done what he needed to build that relationship, but he didn’t need to push Lorelei aside completely in order to do that, he didn’t need to forbid Lorelai from even meeting the girl for as long as he did 

Quote

This is where the difference of opinion lies.  As far as April goes, Luke and Lorelai are not a partnership, at least not yet. 

I was referring to Luke’s partnership with Lorelai, they were supposed to be in a relationship when he was freezing her out of a huge chunk of his life 

Edited June 14, 2018 by Frelling Tralk

[marineg]

10 hours ago, shron17 said:

This is where the difference of opinion lies.  As far as April goes, Luke and Lorelai are not a partnership, at least not yet.

I think a 13 yo is smart enough to know that if her dad is engaged to someone he has been in love with with 10 years, it's a pretty serious partnership. But that's just one woman's opinion.

10 hours ago, shron17 said:

It kind of sounds like you're saying Luke should have not done the things he needed to do to build a close relationship with April so that Lorelai could have had one.  That's just sad.

Luke doing the things he needs to have a relationship with his daughter is different from Luke preventing April from having a relationship with anyone else. Okay, they needed to build a bit at the beginning. But you make it sound like April had problems building a relationship with Luke. She was always open to him, very accepting, never judge him for not being in her life, never complained once. She was a very easy child to get to know and have a relationship with.

And you say that relationships are build of many little moments. Yes, they are. Over the course of a life. You can't isolate your kid from your partner for years because you're "building a relationship." Yes, at first, for a couple months, getting to know her separate from anything else is understandable. But her had 2 months to get to know April before Lorelai found out. By the time the birthday party rolled around, months later, she had been comfortable enough to ask him to go on a road trip with her, to host her birthday at his place, to have a sleepover. Only a couple episodes later, she is staying with him for a month and calling him dad. April was fine. She loved her dad. The problem was Luke. Now, you can say he needed time and that's fine, but he wasn't able to recognise that his daughter loved him and was comfortable in their relationship, and that Lorelai was aching to be a part of it.

And again, he didn't just not see that Lorelai was hurting. He purposely and intentionally kept her out. You say that he shouldn't have to sacrifice his relationship with April so Lorelai could have one. And as I said, April was fine with the way things were. Having a relationship with your father does not mean you can't have a relationship with anyone else. It's not either/or here. Like I said, for the first few months, that's understandable. But April was fine. And what was Luke's excuse in the revival? He kept having the same discourse. "April is my kid" "April is mine" "I'll deal with it." For 10 years. For 10 years he kept Lorelai out. Millions of people on this planet have step-mothers or step-fathers. Millions have more that 2 parents. Why did Luke think his own kid couldn't? She would have benefited from having two strong female role models in her life, instead of just one.

We know from the birthday party that April and Lorelai had the potential of having a great relationship. April says that Lorelai reminds her of her mother, that she would be wasted on boys, she loved everything Lorelai did at the party, she talked with her, separate from Luke. APRIL WAS FINE. And yet, knowing all that, they have the worst relationship in the revival. Why? The only answer is Luke. He was territorial over his kid.

[Anela]

Did someone say that Kirk was in his forties in the revival? Because in season three, he says that in thirty years, he'll be 70, making him 40 then. I don't know how old the actor is in real life, or if the character was just joking. In the episode with Rory going to the hockey game.

Sorry, I can't remember which thread that was mentioned in (Lulu and Kirk being in their forties - the girl who plays Lulu is the same age as Rory, in real life).

Oh, never mind, I've just googled. He's 44 now, so he was joking. 

Edited June 14, 2018 by Anela

[readster]

1 minute ago, Anela said:

Did someone say that Kirk was in his forties in the revival? Because in season three, he says that in thirty years, he'll be 70, making him 40 then. I don't know how old the actor is in real life, or if the character was just joking. In the episode with Rory going to the hockey game.

Sorry, I can't remember which thread that was mentioned in (Lulu and Kirk being in their forties - the girl who plays Lulu is the same age as Rory, in real life).

Sean Gunn is 44, which surprised me he has grayed so much in the last few years. I know that Lulu was younger than him it was even established she was younger. However, like I said, they waited 10 years when Kirk is in his 40s and she is in her mid to late 30s to have kids. 

[Katy M]

2 hours ago, Anela said:

Did someone say that Kirk was in his forties in the revival? Because in season three, he says that in thirty years, he'll be 70, making him 40 then. I don't know how old the actor is in real life, or if the character was just joking. In the episode with Rory going to the hockey game.

Sorry, I can't remember which thread that was mentioned in (Lulu and Kirk being in their forties - the girl who plays Lulu is the same age as Rory, in real life).

Oh, never mind, I've just googled. He's 44 now, so he was joking. 

He might just have done the math wrong. This is Kirk we're talking about. 

 

2 hours ago, readster said:

Sean Gunn is 44, which surprised me he has grayed so much in the last few years. I know that Lulu was younger than him it was even established she was younger. However, like I said, they waited 10 years when Kirk is in his 40s and she is in her mid to late 30s to have kids. 

That's pretty normal nowadays.  My sister had her first kid at 35.  My best friend's sister had her first kid at 31.  A woman I worked with a few years ago had her first kid at 37.

[Kohola3]

5 minutes ago, Katy M said:

He might just have done the math wrong. This is Kirk we're talking about. 

The man with 15,000 jobs.

[Taryn74]

3 hours ago, Anela said:

Did someone say that Kirk was in his forties in the revival? Because in season three, he says that in thirty years, he'll be 70, making him 40 then. I don't know how old the actor is in real life, or if the character was just joking. In the episode with Rory going to the hockey game.

You got it backwards.  In Face-Off he said he'd be 70 in forty years, making him 30 at the time.

Quote

KIRK: Well, ladies and gentlemen, much like the Israelites of Yore, the Stars Hollow Minutemen languished in the desert for forty years. But tonight, there was no Promised Land, no New Canaan, only a humiliating five to one defeat at the merciless hands of the West Hartford Wildcats. So it’s back to the desert for the Minutemen, perhaps for another forty years. Of course, by then, I’ll be seventy years old. A lot of the rest of you will probably be dead. Taylor, you’ll be dead. Babette, Miss Patty. . .that man there in the hat.

[shron17]

15 hours ago, Frelling Tralk said:

But I still don’t see why letting Lorelai get involved in April’s birthday would have a detrimental effect on her building a relationship with Luke.

I don’t think it had a detrimental effect, just that it didn’t help build their relationship.  For example, in season 7 when April and Luke run into Rory and Lorelai at the mall and April tells them “my dad has always been a good gift giver.”  Luke and Rory then reminisce about the bad gifts he’d gotten for her.  If Luke had given April the toiletry kit, she might smile and think “yep, that’s my dad.”  Instead, what she knew of her dad didn’t quite match up.  Not a huge deal really, except that they had 12 years of those kinds of moments to make up for.

15 hours ago, Frelling Tralk said:

I’m saying that Luke didn’t need to freeze Lorelai out in order to build a close relationship with his daughter, that he didn’t need to refuse to allow Lorelai to meet April, that he didn’t need to hide April’s existence from Lorelai in the way that he did. Lorelai rightly points out that he’s being ridiculous to say that it’s just a fact that April will lose all interest in him as soon as she meets Lorelai, that was not how it was going to work when Luke was her newly found father. Luke could still have had one to one meetings with April and done what he needed to build that relationship, but he didn’t need to push Lorelei aside completely in order to do that, he didn’t need to forbid Lorelai from even meeting the girl for as long as he did 

I’m already in agreement that Luke should have told Lorelai sooner about April and that they should have met sooner.  But I think Lorelai is being kind of ridiculous when she tells Luke that of course April will like him because he’s her dad.  All 12-year-olds aren’t automatically going to like someone just because he’s their dad.  Lorelai has a really big personality and tends to outshine Luke’s quieter one.  I've heard people similar to Lorelai described as being someone who takes up a lot of space.  I just think Luke deserves to have all the time and space he needs to get to know April himself before including Lorelai regularly, and I think that’s all he wanted.  Also, I disagree that Lorelai was pushed out of his life and forbidden from meeting April.  I didn’t see that on the show as written.

15 hours ago, Frelling Tralk said:

I was referring to Luke’s partnership with Lorelai, they were supposed to be in a relationship when he was freezing her out of a huge chunk of his life 

I know, and I mean that Luke and Lorelai's partnership did not extend to April at that time.  April needed to become a part of Luke's life first before becoming a part of Lorelai's.

Edited June 14, 2018 by shron17

[shron17]

7 hours ago, marineg said:

And what was Luke's excuse in the revival? He kept having the same discourse. "April is my kid" "April is mine" "I'll deal with it." For 10 years. For 10 years he kept Lorelai out.

Do you really think if Luke had been telling Lorelai all that for 10 years she would have dared to ask where the money for Germany was coming from?  Luke told her April was going to Germany in the summer, and she already knew April had a partial scholarship and Luke paid for the rest and that April was going to grad school.  Would she have questioned him about where was the money coming from, was Luke sure he could swing it (several times), why couldn’t April get a job, etc. if Luke continually told her to back off because April was his?  I’m pretty sure she wouldn’t.  And it was only after Lorelai's nosy questions that Luke said “I’ve got it, April is mine.”  We certainly never saw Luke even attempt to participate in any financial or otherwise big decision in Rory's life.

7 hours ago, marineg said:

We know from the birthday party that April and Lorelai had the potential of having a great relationship. April says that Lorelai reminds her of her mother, that she would be wasted on boys, she loved everything Lorelai did at the party, she talked with her, separate from Luke. APRIL WAS FINE. And yet, knowing all that, they have the worst relationship in the revival. Why? The only answer is Luke. He was territorial over his kid.

I don’t think the party proves the potential of April and Lorelai’s relationship.  Yes, Lorelai is a great party giver, and yes, they had positive interactions during it.  Neither do the few moments we saw of April/Lorelai in the revival prove they now have the worst relationship.  Lorelai was in entertainment mode during dinner which tends to cause awkwardness.  April didn’t get her movie/cultural references, not surprising since they grew up in different generations.  April was in the time of life where she’s still figuring things out but feels the need to hide that from the adults in her life, and confided in Rory because she was closer in age and because Rory’s living in her old room which looked like a time capsule.  Did you catch the part where when April said she doesn’t smoke marijuana and the gesture Lorelai made to Rory at the table to indicate she thinks April does?  I’m sure that would have endeared her to both April and Luke had they seen it.  Luke was grumpy at dinner, but I think that had more to do with finding out from Emily that she ended the counseling sessions and then Lorelai lying right to his face when he asked how they were going.

7 hours ago, marineg said:

But her had 2 months to get to know April before Lorelai found out. By the time the birthday party rolled around, months later, she had been comfortable enough to ask him to go on a road trip with her, to host her birthday at his place, to have a sleepover. Only a couple episodes later, she is staying with him for a month and calling him dad.

Luke visited with April for the first time the day before she visited the diner when Lorelai found out.  And Luke called Lorelai that morning asking if she had time to stop by because there was something he needed to discuss with her in person.  When she said she wouldn't be able to, yes, he took the easy way and waited.  Luke filled in for Anna on the field trip because she had to cancel at the last minute, and he suggested giving the party because Anna couldn’t afford it.  And yes, I agree, that when April stayed with Luke and saw him daily (vs. 4-5 months of visits after the birthday party) when Anna had to go take care of her mother it really helped them bond.

Edited June 14, 2018 by shron17

[elang4]

I agree that Lorelai always thought she knew best when it came to kids. She did it with Jess when she tried to tell him she understood how he felt when in fact, she had no idea what Jess had to go through. She stuck her nose in when Luke specifically asked her not to and said he could handle it. But she thought she knew best and from that moment, she hated Jess just because he acted like that on his first day of being in Stars Hollow. I agree that she was quite patronising and condescending towards Luke with Jess and April, implying that he didn’t know anything at all about looking after a kid. She was trying to butt her way in instead of just being there and encouraging him. I’m not saying Luke didn’t handle the April situation well but Lorelai was too full on as well and in times, I feel like she was a bit rude and she was making fun of him, eg, April’s birthday present. I don’t blame Luke for getting defensive.

Lorelai also did it with Lane to an extent, trying on numerous occasions to reason with Mrs Kim. I know she meant well but she and Mrs Kim were very different. She should have respected that.

[Frelling Tralk]

1 hour ago, shron17 said:

 Also, I disagree that Lorelai was pushed out of his life and forbidden from meeting April.  I didn’t see that on the show as written.

I know, and I mean that Luke and Lorelai's partnership did not extend to April at that time.  April needed to become a part of Luke's life first before becoming a part of Lorelai's.

 

As pointed out by marineg above, April already had become a part of Luke’s life by the time that Lorelai found out about her existence, she had shown that she liked and accepted him as her father without any issues at all. She was very chatty with him and happy for him to host her birthday party, so it wasn’t like Luke and April were fumbling through awkward first meetings not knowing what to say to one another, and it was this really fragile thing that cartoon character Lorelai should not be intruding on. Luke protested that it was still ‘too soon’ after he had already spend two months getting to know April, but really what difference would waiting another two months have made, or six months, or a year? It wasnt like he was only a week into meeting April and finding out about her, he was either ready after two months for the two people in his life to meet and form some kind of relationship without feeling threatened, or he never would be. 

Of course there was always more progress to be made in Luke’s relationship with April, but they were a part of one another’s life’s by then imo. And for all his fears on not being great with kids, Anna joked with him at the birthday party that he had been a big hit with April’s friends as well on the school trip and been nicknamed Hagrid, so there was no reasonable expectation to think that April would lose all interest in hanging out with Luke as soon as Lorelai showed up. April would have liked Lorelai and had fun with her sure, but that didn’t meant that she was going to just ditch her father. The problem was always Luke and his own hang-ups. You even say you’re in agreement that Luke should have allowed Lorelai to meet with April sooner, and yet you keep coming up with reasoning on why Luke was still right to keep the two of them apart to protect his relationship with April, on why he was right to fear April liking Lorelai better. 

And Lorelai clearly did feel that she was forbidden from April, hence peering through the window at the rest of the town hanging out with April at Luke’s, and not feeling able to get up and join them just to say hi. Luke point blank says no when Lorelai asks if she can meet April, with the rationale that, ‘Kids love you. I wouldn't hang out with me either after meeting you.’ How is that response not going to make Lorelai feel like she was forbidden from meeting her partners kid? Lorelai clearly did feel pushed out of Luke’s life, that was the whole cause of their relationship breakdown

Edited June 14, 2018 by Frelling Tralk

[Anela]

15 hours ago, Taryn74 said:

You got it backwards.  In Face-Off he said he'd be 70 in forty years, making him 30 at the time.

Thanks.

[stan4]

On 6/12/2018 at 11:57 AM, Katy M said:

I don't think most people have a problem with Lorelai attempting to help with the gift.  But, she took it too far when she basically insulted his gift picking out abilities and insisted that he was doing it wrong.

Completely different circumstances, but I once went birthday shopping with a new boyfriend for his four year old daughter.  He'd known her her whole life and he'd already happily introduced me. But, she liked horses so he was picking out a toy horse and he picked one out without a mane that you could brush. So, I suggested a different horse, and he was like "what's wrong with this one?"  I said, "You can't brush its mane."  "Is that important?"  "Clearly you were never a little girl."  "Nope."  He ended up buying her the horse I suggested, but I never in a million years would have argued with him about it.  Plus, I only tweaked, I didn't do a whole 180 with what he was picking, and insult his ideas as a whole.  That's really what Lorelai was doing.

Sounds like more of the issue with it is that she was not as diplomatic as some would like her to be.

But her reaction was consistent with character.  She was the same with the Rachel present.

 

Maybe the real problem is with the writers/story where they make Luke into a moron who picks totally stupid gifts despite the fact that he knows both Rachel (traveler, adventurer, likes nature - even describes what kind of gift to get when Lorelai takes over the gift-giving) and April (likes science, inventing, etc) AND despite the fact that he has come up with incredibly thoughtful gifts for Lorelai over and over (chuppah, ice rink, new jeep body to transplant the engine into, party for Rory, etc).  What turns him into such a moron with the others?

Edited June 15, 2018 by stan4

[readster]

20 hours ago, stan4 said:

Sounds like more of the issue with it is that she was not as diplomatic as some would like her to be.

But her reaction was consistent with character.  She was the same with the Rachel present.

 

Maybe the real problem is with the writers/story where they make Luke into a moron who picks totally stupid gifts despite the fact that he knows both Rachel (traveler, adventurer, likes nature - even describes what kind of gift to get when Lorelai takes over the gift-giving) and April (likes science, inventing, etc) AND despite the fact that he has come up with incredibly thoughtful gifts for Lorelai over and over (chuppah, ice rink, new jeep body to transplant the engine into, party for Rory, etc).  What turns him into such a moron with the others?

How true, Luke could know exactly what to get Lorelai, but Rachel and April? Nope, nada, don't have a clue. Just like Jess: "I can just skip school, work at awesome Walmart all the time and I'll be fine." 

[stan4]

On 6/13/2018 at 11:27 AM, andromeda331 said:

And that he thought April would be happy with sitting around the diner playing cards. He got a cake and that was it.  Really what kid boy or girl would find that fun? 

Part of my issue with people complaining Lorelai is always trying to tell Luke he doesn't know what he's doing is that she is pretty much always right.  He doesn't.

 

Just rewatched the SPP scene with the gift choosing. There was no rudeness, mockery,  or derision.

[ghoulina]

Lorelai was right. She was right about Jess. She was right about Gigi. She was right about Sookie at the LOTR party. Being right doesn't obligate you to inform everyone....multiple times...in a superior way. I always tell my kids, "sometimes it's better to be happy than to be right."

I know we all have different perspectives, but she DID seem rude to me in that scene. She sort of scoffed at his gift like he was a total idiot for picking that out. If you truly want to help, not just show how right you are, maybe take a less haughty tone. She came off that way every time, IMO. She likened Chris's daughter to a feral hyena! 

She could use a little more tact, if you ask me.