Manson Family Media

[shapeshifter]

A thread for books, films, articles, etc. about the show or Manson.

To start:

I have neither read any of the books nor seen any earlier films on Manson, and I too wondered about the inspiration for some of the fictionalized scenes. Searching a couple of academic databases I found:

Atchison, Andrew J., and Kathleen M. Heide. "Charles Manson and the Family The Application of Sociological Theories to Multiple Murder." International Journal of Offender Therapy and Comparative Criminology 55, no. 5 (2011): 771-798.

On page 781:

In another instance, Manson told [cell mate] Emmons that he lost a possible parole date because of a reportedly consensual homosexual encounter between Manson and another delinquent at the National Training School for Boys in Washington, D.C. Manson was accused of threatening a boy’s life with a razor to his throat in order to sodomize the boy against his will. Manson stated that the boy was a willing participant in the sexual activity and that they had an agreement about the razor in order to protect the reputation of this boy, who was an in-the-closet homosexual. The agreement was that if the pair was discovered, the boy could say that Manson had forced him into the act

I don't know how reliable of a narrator Emmons is, but it seems to me that the Aquarius writers likely also did their research and read this, which makes sense to me, because, IMO, the quality of the script is very good. Edited May 29, 2015 by shapeshifter

[cooksdelight]

As suggested reading in the main 1st episode thread, "The Family" by Ed Sanders, the first edition is the one you want since it's not been sanitized to remove references to The Church of Scientology. I found a hardbound copy on Amazon for $4.35 from a used bookseller. The title is longer than just "The Family" which is what it was changed to in the later edited version. You want to look for "The Family: The Story of Charles Manson's Dune Buggy Attack Battalion" published in 1971.

[shapeshifter]

Here is a WorldCat link to "all" library books and media with the subject heading Manson, Charles, 1934-

worldcat.org/search?q=su:Manson,+Charles,+1934-&dblist=638&fq=-fm:fic&qt=facet_fm:_content

Wherever you are, it should show the library nearest to you that has a particular book.

On the left you can limit results by Format, Language, Year of publication, etc.

Just in case I'm not the only one wondering, the book Charles Manson Was an Environmentalist derives its title from a banner on a logging truck. Its similar to saying "Hitler loved dogs."

Edited May 30, 2015 by shapeshifter

[Inquisitionist]

I had the 2004 version of Helter Skelter on in the background via youtube last night.  Jeremy Davies' voice sounded too much like Dickie Bennett of Justified to me.

[shapeshifter]

...The name of the album was The Beatles, so I've never thought of that possibility. Which makes me think, when did it become known more as The White Album, rather than the actual title. I'm pretty sure that's all I've ever seen it referred to, but that would have been years after this and I guess I always just assumed it happened over time, but maybe it got that name right off the bat?

I can remember as a young teen manually turning the album backwards on my portable stereo turntable to hear the words "turn me on dead man" in the track "Revolution 9"--likely Manson knew about that too--but I cannot recall what we called it.

The library where I work has the book Revolution: The making of The Beatles' White Album, which our catalog's enhanced metadata indicates that it includes "...how the White Album got its look and name..." and also "...how it inspired the bloody massacres of Charles Manson and his 'family'..." so I'll check it out and post anything of interest if/when I can, or maybe someone else will first

[TattleTeeny]

Sort of unrelated but I thought I'd throw it in here: years ago, at a charity book sale, I found a first-edition hardcover copy of Helter Skelter. Oh, I was so happy! Not that it's worth anything--it doesn't even have the dust jacket. But you know, it's the little things.

 

I don't know how reliable of a narrator Emmons is, but it seems to me that the Aquarius writers likely also did their research and read this, which makes sense to me, because, IMO, the quality of the script is very good.

 

There's a book by Emmons too--I can actually see it on the shelf right now, but can't quite read or remember the title from here. And now here's a question as I stare over at my sizeable true-crime selection: why the hell are so many books in this genre black and red? It's seriously about two-thirds of them over here! Incidentally, my copy of the Ed Sanders one is green and white.

ETA: Emmons's book is called Manson in His Own Words. 
 

Edited May 30, 2015 by TattleTeeny

[Sile]

I can remember as a young teen manually turning the album backwards on my portable stereo turntable to hear the words "turn me on dead man" in the track "Revolution 9"--likely Manson knew about that too--but I cannot recall what we called it.

The library where I work has the book Revolution: The making of The Beatles' White Album, which our catalog's enhanced metadata indicates that it includes "...how the White Album got its look and name..." and also "...how it inspired the bloody massacres of Charles Manson and his 'family'..." so I'll check it out and post anything of interest if/when I can, or maybe someone else will first

 

Please do, because now it's really piqued my interest.  I can see why it became known as that, "which Beatles album are you talking about?" "you know, the white album."  Or to differentiate between The Beatles, Meet the Beatles, Introducing the Beatles, etc.  Plus it seems kind of weird they would name an album The Beatles that far into their career.  That's kind of a first album name.

[Inquisitionist]

Plus it seems kind of weird they would name an album The Beatles that far into their career.  That's kind of a first album name.

 

After the "excesses" re name and cover art for Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band and Magical Mystery Tour, I understand they decided to make a 180 with the most stripped-down cover and title possible.  Ironically, many of the songs were solo pieces or had other band members basically acting as session players for each other (or not at all:  George brought in Eric Clapton to play lead guitar on While My Guitar Gently Weeps).  The simple "togetherness" of the album name was an illusion by that point.

[shapeshifter]

The article I cited in the first post of this thread is not readily available outside of academia, so here is a partial list of its bibliography (it's actually twice as long!), including articles that review books mentioned above but not general works on serial killers or criminology. I should have access to any of the articles. Any words in curly brackets are my additions.

Baer, R. (1972). Reflections on the Manson trial: Journal of a pseudo-juror. Waco, TX: Word Books.

Bishop, G. V. (1971). Witness to evil. Los Angeles, CA: Nash Pub. {Physical Description: xii, 43l p. : ill. ; 23 cm. Notes: "The inside story of the Tate/La Bianca murder trial."}

Black, D. (1987, February 6). Manson on his own myth. The Washington Post, p. C3.

Bravin, J. (1997). Squeaky: The life and times of Lynette Alice Fromme. New York, NY: St. Martin’s.

Bugliosi, V., & Gentry, C. (1974). Helter Skelter: The true story of the Manson murders. New York, NY: Norton.

Bugliosi, V., & Gentry, C. (1994). Helter Skelter: The true story of the Manson murders (25 Anniversary ed.). New York, NY: Norton.

Burns, J. G. (1997). Squeaky: The life and times of Lynette Alice Fromme—Runaway. Library Journal, 122, 122. {Review article}

California: Prison release denied. (2008, July 16). The New York Times, p. 16.

Charles Manson denied parole. Alternatives to incarceration. (1997). Bethpage, 3(2), 2.

Chiasson, L. (1997). The press on trial: Crimes and trials as media events. Westport, CT: Greenwood.

Cooper, D. E. (1974). The Manson murders: A philosophical inquiry. Cambridge, MA: Schenkman.

Coyne, J. R. (1975). Killing for love. National Review, 27, 119-120.

Dardenne, R. (1997). The case of Charles Manson. In L. Chiasson (Ed.), The press on trial (pp. 159-171). Westport, CT: Greenwood.

Emmons, N. (1986). Manson in his own words: As told to Nuel Emmons. New York, NY: Grove Press.

Faith, K. (2001). The long prison journey of Leslie Van Houten: Life beyond the cult. Boston, MA: Northeastern University Press.

Geis, G., & Huston, T. L. (1971-1972). Charles Manson and his girls: Notes on a Durkheimian theme. Criminology, 9, 342-353.

George, E., & Matera, D. (1998). Taming the beast: Charles Manson’s life behind bars (1st ed.). New York, NY: St. Martin’s.

Lehmann-Haupt, C. (1974, November 8). Prosecuting the Manson case. New York Times, p. 37.

Lehmann-Haupt, C. (1987, January 19). Book of the times. New York Times, C, p. 18.

Livsey, C. G. (1980). The Manson women: A “family” portrait. New York, NY: Robert Marek.

Nielsen, D. A. (2005). Horrible workers Max Stirner, Arthur Rimbaud, Robert Johnson, and the Charles Manson circle: Studies in moral experience and cultural expression. Lanham, MD: Lexington Books.

Popper, M. (2001). Hypnotic leadership: Leaders, followers, and the loss of self. Westport, CT: Praeger. {Chapter on Manson}

Rotella, M., Abbott, C., & Gold, S. (2001). The long prison journey of Leslie Van Houten: Life beyond the cult. Publishers Weekly, 248(22), 64-65. {Review}

Sanders, E. (1972). The family: The story of Charles Manson’s dune buggy attack battalion. New York, NY: Avon.

Sanders, E. (2002). The family (Rev. and updated). New York, NY: Thunder’s Mouth Press.

See, C. (1997, July 18). Charlie’s Angel; Squeaky Fromme: First serving Manson, now serving life. The Washington Post, p. B2.

Spence, J., III. (1975). Helter Skelter [book review]. American Bar Association Journal, 61, 928-929.

Standiford, F. (2001). The long prison journey of Leslie Van Houten [book review]. Library Journal, 126(11), 89.

Stuttaford, G., & Simson, M. (1997, April 7). Nonfiction [Reviews]. Squeaky: The life and times of Lynette Alice Fromme: Runaway. Publishers Weekly.

Watson, C., & Hoekstra, R. (1978). Will you die for me? Old Tappan, NJ: Fleming H. Revell.

Watson, T. (2009, August 10 & 17). The Manson murders at 40. Newsweek, pp. 38-40.

Wilson, T. (1996). Headline justice: Inside the courtroom: The country’s most controversial trials (1st ed.). New York, NY: Thunder’s Mouth Press.

Wizinski, Sy. (1976). Letters to a secret disciple. Terre Haute, IN: Moonmad Press.

Edited May 30, 2015 by shapeshifter

[Scout Finch]

I wasn't even halfway through the first episode before realizing that I know way too much about Charles Manson and his followers. "Oh, I bet that character is based on Tex Watson, and is that guy based on Bobby Beausoleil? Okay, that girl HAS to be based on Squeaky Fromme."

 

Are any of the followers' autobiographies worth reading? Susan Atkins wrote one, but from the description it sounds like it's just an ultra-religious testimony about having found God in prison. I've read Helter Skelter a couple of times, but that was decades ago. I loved how masterfully Bugliosi took down Manson; the transcripts are so fascinating. I've also read The Dune Buggy... which, for some reason, my grandmother had an ancient copy of. Jeff Guinn's book is on my huge list of books to someday get at the library.

 

I'm only on the fourth episode so maybe it gets easier, but in the meantime any advice on how to tell Mike and Charlie apart when the latter is not with the girls? Too many guys with the same hair, facial hair and eye color. Why can't Charlie just carve an "X" into his forehead right now?

 

For entertainment purposes, I've given my cats a Manson Lamps stare from time to time, which they really, really don't like. Go figure.

Edited May 30, 2015 by Scout Finch

[sinkwriter]

Does anyone know if this speech used in the 1976 tv movie is taken from actual courtroom transcripts?

 

https://www.youtube.com/qPzKhHeDoyM

 

If that's the case, I think I can see why some people were swayed by him back then. He's definitely horrific and crazy and evil, but he trades on fear (frighteningly so) and questions societal rules and mores, which was a big thing in the 60's, to fight and question and protest the establishment, right? 

 

Also, I think you can take some of the arguments he uses in this speech and bend them to fit so many scenarios, including our current, continuing issues of racism and police brutality. I can see him being seen as making these passionate arguments and people saying, "Yeah, man, yeah! You're right!" and they let him in that little bit more, and before they know it, they're sucked into his web of lies and fear-mongering and violence and it probably seems like a great idea. 

 

*shudders*

Edited May 30, 2015 by sinkwriter

[Scout Finch]

Unfortunately, there's a ton of people who are still enthralled with his views. In another thread, someone linked to a YouTube video of Manson singing in his jail cell, and I scrolled down to read the comments. It's quite disturbing that the majority of comments are in support of his views in these current times.

 

Heh, I remember some standup comedian in, I think, the '80s who was talking about how if by some miracle Manson were granted parole, what would he do for employment? The joke was something about a wild-eyed Manson asking if you want fries with that and how you'd say yes out of fear.

[EarlGreyTea]

Mods, is it okay to talk about current Manson events here? Or should I go to the small talk thread? I was intrigued by the revelation that Manson's 26-year-old girlfriend only wanted to marry him to gain access to his body after he died and sell tickets to see it. She'd been visiting him regularly for 7 years, so she was really in it for the long con. I found myself impressed that she could both hold out for that long and fool Manson, of all people.

 

Anyway, she and her friend who was also scamming Manson still have his website up. It's utterly bizarre and includes a helpful link to purchase Manson's music.

Edited May 31, 2015 by EarlGreyTea

[sinkwriter]

 

Unfortunately, there's a ton of people who are still enthralled with his views. In another thread, someone linked to a YouTube video of Manson singing in his jail cell, and I scrolled down to read the comments. It's quite disturbing that the majority of comments are in support of his views in these current times.

 

You can't see me right now, but I'm cringing hard. *shudder shudder shudder*

[ratgirlagogo]

 

The name of the album was The Beatles, so I've never thought of that possibility. Which makes me think, when did it become known more as The White Album, rather than the actual title.

I was eleven when this album came out, and the answer is, immediately.  It is impossible to get across to younger people just how famous the Beatles were in their day.  Every single fucking move every member of the band made was network TV news - back in the days when there were only 13 channels.  And it wasn't treated, or received, like the nonstop coverage of a pop star like Taylor Swift or fill in the blank.  Intelligent people took them SERIOUSLY.  And on the RADIO - good god.   The top-forty AM car radio stations, the super-serious "we only play entire sides of record albums by serious Rock Artists" FM Rock stations, the free-form community stations, college radio, political radio, public radio -- everything the Beatles did was covered.  They were not my favorite band of the period by a long shot but I still have heard every single recording they ever made literally hundreds of times - this includes bootlegs and the fan club recordings.  Because all of it including the bootlegs and the fan club recordings was played on the radio over and over and over again.  The question of what to call this album was actually, seriously, debated on air, at length, in the first month of its release and within those first few weeks it was referred to on air and sold in stores as The White Album.

[shapeshifter]

The library where I work has the book Revolution: The making of The Beatles' White Album, which our catalog's enhanced metadata indicates that it includes "...how the White Album got its look and name..." and also "...how it inspired the bloody massacres of Charles Manson and his 'family'..." so I'll check it out and post anything of interest if/when I can, or maybe someone else will first

Please do, because now it's really piqued my interest. I can see why it became known as that, "which Beatles album are you talking about?" "you know, the white album." Or to differentiate between The Beatles, Meet the Beatles, Introducing the Beatles, etc. Plus it seems kind of weird they would name an album The Beatles that far into their career. That's kind of a first album name.

I was eleven when this album came out, and the answer is, immediately...The question of what to call this album was actually, seriously, debated on air, at length, in the first month of its release and within those first few weeks it was referred to on air and sold in stores as The White Album.

I got the book (Revolution: The making of The Beatles' White Album--I live a mile from my place of work). It's not very well documented, and he writes in unfounded superlatives, so I think ratgirlagogo has a better handle on it, since she heard the radio debates, but here's what it says on page 165:

Hamilton also asked the Beatles if they had ever released and album called just "The Beatles." They never had. So the album became The Beatles. Its sleeve color and lack of title have of course meant that no one on earth has ever referred to The Beatles as anything other than "the White Album."

Edited May 31, 2015 by shapeshifter

[Drapers4thWife]

Plus it seems kind of weird they would name an album The Beatles that far into their career.  That's kind of a first album name.

 

Paul McCartney was recently on an episode of the Nerdist podcast I was just listening to the other day. In it, he talked about (amongst other things) the creation of the cover and art for the White Album by artist Richard Hamilton. He said it was Hamilton's idea to call the album simply "The Beatles."

 

I imagine people started calling it the White Album fairly quickly because of both the cover and it was probably awkward to say, "Have you heard the new Beatles album The Beatles?"

[psychoticstate]

Unfortunately, there's a ton of people who are still enthralled with his views. In another thread, someone linked to a YouTube video of Manson singing in his jail cell, and I scrolled down to read the comments. It's quite disturbing that the majority of comments are in support of his views in these current times.

 

Heh, I remember some standup comedian in, I think, the '80s who was talking about how if by some miracle Manson were granted parole, what would he do for employment? The joke was something about a wild-eyed Manson asking if you want fries with that and how you'd say yes out of fear.

 

Sadly, this is true.  I have a relative who is an adult but who feels that Manson was unfairly prosecuted and persecuted.  (This was after watching the Jeremy Davies version of Helter Skelter.)  She even named her dog after him.  I told her to read Helter Skelter (she declined), to watch the Steve Railsback version and even go online and look at the crime scene photos and see what he and his Family did to innocent people.  She refuses all of the above but claims she knows "everything" about the case.  Obviously, she's an idiot.  

[shapeshifter]

Sadly, this is true. I have a relative who is an adult but who feels that Manson was unfairly prosecuted and persecuted. (This was after watching the Jeremy Davies version of Helter Skelter.) She even named her dog after him. I told her to read Helter Skelter (she declined), to watch the Steve Railsback version and even go online and look at the crime scene photos and see what he and his Family did to innocent people. She refuses all of the above but claims she knows "everything" about the case. Obviously, she's an idiot.

I have family members that hold illogical beliefs, the problem is when they pass them onto their children--which I guess is part of Manson's "excuse."

The Manson Family members aren't completely repentant either. After looking at this...

Does anyone know if this speech used in the 1976 tv movie is taken from actual courtroom transcripts?

https://www.youtube.com/qPzKhHeDoyM

I clicked on another YouTube video from PBS Biography. It included interviews with some of the girls, who were middle-aged women when interviewed. Even one that was very sorry for what she had done was still angry at Manson for not accepting responsibility for the murders. To me, her anger just felt like she wanted someone to blame other than herself too.

[psychoticstate]

I clicked on another YouTube video from PBS Biography. It included interviews with some of the girls, who were middle-aged women when interviewed. Even one that was very sorry for what she had done was still angry at Manson for not accepting responsibility for the murders. To me, her anger just felt like she wanted someone to blame other than herself too.

 

 

shapeshifter, I used to believe that Patricia Krenwinkle was the sole member of the Manson Family who was truly remorseful for what she had done and was doing something positive during her incarceration.  I still believe that she has done something positive (training dogs for the blind) but seeing a video last year in which she blamed Manson sickened and disappointed me.  Yeah, sure, Manson influenced them but they she made a choice as an adult to follow him and commit murder.  That was her choice and she not only murdered innocent persons, she did it gruesomely and with glee.

[Milburn Stone]

I think this is maybe the thread to ask, "How much of the story is true?" I figure that most of the characters other than Manson are fictional. (Of course I could be wrong about that.) But are certain underlying plot elements in the show kind of true? For instance, did Manson blackmail powerful people in order to make connections in the music business? Were some cops on to the Manson Family before the horrific murders? Etc.

[sinkwriter]

I can't speak to most of it, but the character nicknamed Sadie (the one who seems both friend and jealous rival of Emma for Manson's affections) is based on a real person named Susan Atkins who went by "Sadie" while living with the Family. I don't know what they'll do for the show, but in real life...

 

Susan "Sadie" Atkins was one of the most violent members of the Family and spent her entire life in prison because of the murders she committed with and for Manson.

 

People more familiar with the facts of the cases can probably answer better than I, but from what I recall, the horrific murders were a gigantic shock to the community and I don't think the police were onto the Manson Family before it all happened. Not in a way where they would have or should have known it was coming and could have in any way prevented it. I don't think so, anyway.

Edited June 3, 2015 by sinkwriter

[Milburn Stone]

Thanks, sinkwriter.

[ShadowHunter]

The case was not 100% handled well bye the LAPD.

Kitty Lutesinger gave police the first link to Susan Atkins in connection with the Gary Hinmam murder. She was the girlfriend of Bobby Beausoleil. Bobby is still serving a life sentence for the murder of hinman.

While Susan was in jail she started telling Virginia Graham and Ronnie Howard that the cops had the whole thing and wrong and how she and the rest of the family had done the killings. She personally confessed to having stabbed Sharon Tate. In fact they were going to kill other famous people as well. Elizabeth Taylor,Richard Burton,Frank Sinatra.

Its really is a good thing these people were caught because they really would have gone on killings. That is why I have always had a hard time believing them when they would go on to express remorse later on. I know some of them have done good things while in prison and are all model citizens but I dont think that is enough to make up for what was done.

Even durning the trial the girls would sing,laugh, skip. When I would watch them being interviewed at there parole hearings over the years I always felt they were just sorry they ended up being stuck in prison for life.

Leslie VanHouten even said at the time she was glad she had been sentenced to die since it wad an eye for an eye. She wouldnt have to think about what she had done. I dont think any of them will get out but alot of comments I have read from people think Leslie has the best chance.

[ratgirlagogo]

 

don't think the police were onto the Manson Family before it all happened. Not in a way where they would have or should have known it was coming and could have in any way prevented it. I don't think so, anyway.

Agreed.  I have to again recommend Jeff Guinn's Manson for a more detailed answer on this, but Bugliosi's Helter Skelter is equally clear on the surprise this all was to the cops.  For one thing it really took them a long time to connect the LaBianca murders to the Tate murders.

[Yokosmom]

Agreed.  I have to again recommend Jeff Guinn's Manson for a more detailed answer on this, but Bugliosi's Helter Skelter is equally clear on the surprise this all was to the cops.  For one thing it really took them a long time to connect the LaBianca murders to the Tate murders.

 

Yes, I'd read Helter Skelter many times, but Jeff Guinn's recent book had new information in it, specifically on Manson's early life.  It also gives fairly comprehensive coverage of his musical odyssey.  Really, he had more chances and certainly more industry connections that many other would-be musicians at the time.

 

The cops were grossly incompetent--NOT because they didn't glom on immediately that these were cult killings, (can't fault them for that), but because so much evidence was mishandled and a number of leads (the location of the gun used in the Tate murders, the fact that news reporters found the murderers clothing and knives, etc.) weren't followed up on.  I give them some slack on deciding that the Tate/LaBianca murders weren't connected.  There were some dissimilarities in the crime scenes and the victims lived and ran in completely different social circles.  However, the two sets of detectives working on those cases seemingly never compared notes or talked much at all, even though their desks were about 20 feet away from one another.  

 

If Manson was on anyone's radar, it was more due to suspicions of car theft.

[helenamonster]

I think this is maybe the thread to ask, "How much of the story is true?" I figure that most of the characters other than Manson are fictional. (Of course I could be wrong about that.) But are certain underlying plot elements in the show kind of true? For instance, did Manson blackmail powerful people in order to make connections in the music business? Were some cops on to the Manson Family before the horrific murders? Etc.

 

I've only watched the first two (three? It gets confusing because the first two eps were combined into one) episodes so far, and plenty of people here are more well-versed in Manson lore than I, but it seems like the show has done its research pretty well regarding the little details. The story that Manson told Emma in the first episode about his mother trading him for a pitcher of beer is true.

 

As for any of these creeps ever getting released...I doubt it, but only because the Tate family has been so active in attending the parole hearings on Sharon's behalf. Her mother died 20 years ago, but I think at least one of her sisters is still alive and goes to the hearings, as well as I think a niece.

 

Sadie Atkins applied for compassionate release when she was diagnosed with terminal brain cancer, which I laughed at when my sociology teacher showed us a news clip about it. Where was your compassion when you were stabbing a pregnant woman to death, you piece of shit? Good riddance.

 

I wonder what Linda Kasabian's up to these days. The last update on her Wikipedia page details a Larry King interview from 2009. She's the Family member I was always most fascinated by.

[miles2go]

I'm reading the Manson biography by Jeff Guinn (an excellent read, by the way);  I've just started the part in which Manson starts hanging out in Haight-Ashbury.  Guinn hasn't mentioned the story of the young Charlie being traded for beer, but his childhood was certainly troubled enough, even without that.

 

My impression, so far, is that, in spite of his less-than-ideal youth, Manson had sufficient resources to make a decent life for himself, had he chosen to do so.  Instead,  he preferred to exploit other people.  

 

It's a fascinating story, even if I feel increasingly repelled by Charley Manson.

[shapeshifter]

The academic book Hypnotic Leadership: Leaders, Followers, and the Loss of Self has a chapter on Manson that mentions the story of his mother trading him for a glass of beer. The author then goes on to say that whether or not it is true, he had a troubled childhood.

Yeah. Well. So did Bill Clinton. I mention Clinton because both have the last names of step fathers.

[helenamonster]

From the episode 3 thread, where people started to talk about the effect of the Manson Family on culture in terms of protectiveness...

 

There's a theory called mean world syndrome which basically states that the excessive amount of violence that we see in media (specifically television) causes people to see the world as a more violent, dangerous place than it actually is. It's one conclusion drawn from cultivation theory, which looks at the long-term effects of television. So something like the Manson Family, which as I understand received wall-to-wall media coverage back in the day, would cause people to think that there were hippies going on creepie crawls outside every bedroom window.

 

I can't find anything right now that specifically links Manson to this theory, but the Family (and more specifically, the media coverage they received) is definitely something that could be used to prove the validity of it.

[AndreaK1041]

I have read only the beginning of Helter Skelter that describes how the bodies were found, but I think I will never feel not scared again. Should I keep reading? Is it just page after page of terror? I sure as hell am not sleeping tonight!

[miles2go]

I'm not really sure how much effect the coverage  of the Manson family had on middle-class paranoia -- mainstream society was already plenty nervous even before the murders.  But it certainly didn't help matters any.  

 

I don't remember the news coverage as especially affecting my parents, teachers, or other adults.  They were, of course, shocked by the violence of the murders, and it confirmed their belief that those long-haired weirdos were up to no good.  It was disillusioning for those of us who naively believed that the counter-culture was going to usher in a wonderful new age.  How many of these political activists and gurus, we wondered, were really rotten people? So we became far less trusting. (A good thing, actually)

 

The thing is, there was so much violence and disruption in that era, the Tate-LaBianca murders were just one more item on the list.  

[Milburn Stone]

The thing is, there was so much violence and disruption in that era, the Tate-LaBianca murders were just one more item on the list.  

 

That's how I remember it too. I think it would be more shocking today than it was then. Not that it didn't make headlines--of course it did. And was a subject of public fascination. But somehow, it didn't seem to be an "outlier." Just part of the nutty-cuckoo, topsy-turvy fabric of the times.

[sinkwriter]

Vincent Bugliosi, the man who successfully prosecuted Charles Manson, has passed away.

 

Wow... talk about strange timing, as a huge part of his life's work is stirred up all over again with the creation of this show, Aquarius.

[CeeBeeGee]

Sadie Atkins applied for compassionate release when she was diagnosed with terminal brain cancer, which I laughed at when my sociology teacher showed us a news clip about it. Where was your compassion when you were stabbing a pregnant woman to death, you piece of shit? Good riddance..

 

I guess I believe that they've all reformed--there seems to be a lot of evidence to support that--but I cringed when Atkins was asking to be released. Perhaps it would be a compassionate gesture to release an inmate who is dying of brain cancer but I also believe there are some crimes for which you can never fully atone. Even if she died in prison, that's still 40 years of life that Sharon Tate, her unborn son, Sebring and Folger and Frytowski, Stephen Parent and the La Biancas never had. I think if Atkins had fully reformed she would never have asked, knowing the pain it would bring to the Tate family to have to relive Sharon's murder all over again and advocate yet AGAIN against any kind of release for Sharon's murderer.

 

I remember when when that news came out, about Atkins and her brain cancer. It was around the same time that Mackenzie Phillips published her book which talked about her incredibly messed-up relationship with her father, which included a long-term nominally-consensual incestuous relationship with her own father, which just boggles the mind. Talk about casualties of the '60s!

[Milburn Stone]

Copy of Beatles' "White Album" autographed by Manson Family:

 

http://www.ioffer.com/i/charles-manson-susan-atkins-autograph-signed-beatles-160431617

 

Only $49,000.

[AndreaK1041]

Am I a total weirdo that I think that item should be in museum or something?  They have the Unabomber's actual cabin at the Newseum in DC, so I guess not that weird.

Edited June 10, 2015 by AndreaK1041

[miles2go]

Gah!!!  I'll bet someone buys it, though.

[helenamonster]

That thing is guaranteed to be cursed or a Horcrux or something.

[shapeshifter]

That thing is guaranteed to be cursed or a Horcrux or something.

Unless the person selling it donates every penny to shelter the homeless or provide mosquito nets to malaria infested villages or something similar. And, even then, if anyone manages to use a single cent for selfish reasons, beware! The curse shall fall! (Or something like that. Instant Karma. Etc.)

[miles2go]

I've recently finished reading Manson: The Life and Times of Charles Manson by Jeff Guinn, a very well-written book which I recommend to anyone with an interest in the case.  I have  Helter Skelter  on hand, but I'm going to take a break before reading it.  Too much of Manson is going to give me nightmares.

[shapeshifter]

The 2007 documentary, "Cease to Exist," is availabe freely here:

http://www.imdb.com/video/withoutabox/vi1090716441?ref_=tt_pv_vi_aiv_1

It covers "...Charles Manson's relationship with Beach Boys' drummer Dennis Wilson and record producer Terry Melcher..." with a focus on the motive for the killings being revenge against Terry Melcher for any real or imagined (by Manson) slights that prevented him from getting credited as a musician.

Edited June 16, 2015 by shapeshifter

[ratgirlagogo]

 

I've recently finished reading Manson: The Life and Times of Charles Manson by Jeff Guinn, a very well-written book which I recommend to anyone with an interest in the case.

Agreed of course.  I've been recommending this book throughout the thread, but it doesn't hurt to recommend it again.  I especially recommend it to people like myself who have already read a great deal about this case and know a lot about it - believe me, you will learn some things you DID NOT  know before.  He also wrote  books on Bonnie and Clyde (Go Down Together) and the gunfight at the OK Corral (The Last Gunfight) which I would recommend equally if you have an interest in either, for just the same reason.  I learned many things from each book that I had NEVER read or heard before from ANY source, and I would have said beforehand that I was totally over reading anything else on either case.  

Edited June 17, 2015 by ratgirlagogo

[miles2go]

Sorry, Ratgirl, didn't mean to steal your thunder. I'm sure everyone remembers you were the first to mention the book.

 

I did notice he had written about the O.K. Corral and Bonnie and Clyde, and, since both topics interest me, I will be reading those when I have the time.  You won't  mind, will you, if I comment about them?  Not in this thread, of course.

[ratgirlagogo]

 

Sorry, Ratgirl, didn't mean to steal your thunder.

Don't have any ego stuff at all involved with that, miles2go.  And I have no connection at all to the author or publisher.  Just an enthusiastic reader of the book in question.  I would like as many people as possible with an interest in the case to read  it -sorry,  I'm a librarian - we DO that.

[Milburn Stone]

The 2007 documentary, "Cease to Exist," is availabe freely here:

http://www.imdb.com/video/withoutabox/vi1090716441?ref_=tt_pv_vi_aiv_1

It covers "...Charles Manson's relationship with Beach Boys' drummer Dennis Wilson and record producer Terry Melcher..." with a focus on the motive for the killings being revenge against Terry Melcher for any real or imagined (by Manson) slights that prevented him from getting credited as a musician.

 

This is intriguing.

 

Watching Aquarius gave us an appetite for seeing a Manson documentary, but I imagine there are many, and so I'd love to know if there's a consensus as to which one is the best. Is Cease to Exist a good choice if one is going to see just one Manson doc? If not, what would be a better one? 

[shapeshifter]

This is intriguing.

 

Watching Aquarius gave us an appetite for seeing a Manson documentary, but I imagine there are many, and so I'd love to know if there's a consensus as to which one is the best. Is Cease to Exist a good choice if one is going to see just one Manson doc? If not, what would be a better one?

It's low-budget in terms of production values, but I didn't notice anything too presumptuous or stating theory as fact--which is what would have bugged me. I have nothing else to compare it with beyond Aquarius.

It gave me a greater respect for Gethin Anthony's portrayal of Manson.

[crowswork]

Lost as to why they cast the pretty guy from GOT here?

 

Jeremy Davies looks and talks exactly like Manson. Runty, squirrely Manson. Who like Hitler somehow used Some Magical Charisma that outweighed his extreme geefyness.

[TattleTeeny]

While bored one night years ago, I watched this. It's low-budget and speculative, IIRC, but I was entertained.

 

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1376239/

[Desperately Random]

I saw that too Tattleteeny. It was interesting. Definitely low budget but it was mainly the guy visiting the sites where Charles Manson lived and/or committed his crimes so low budget was fine for what he was doing. I'm glad I watched it.