Season 6: Speculation

nksarmi · June 25, 2015

Jaime, Bronn and Trystane arriving in KL feels like an episode 1 event. I imagine they'd want to show how Jaime/Cersei react to Myrcella's death and how their relationship might start changing, and then there's Trystane, who must have been sent to KL for a reason. If they arrive too late, the show doesn't get the same opportunity for character interactions and drama. Mace can be forgotten until it's time for him to die.

If that boat even goes to KL without Bronn or Trystane saving Myrcella's life, my head might explode from the stupidity of it all.

That boat HAS to be a Dorne boat. Jamie and Bronn went alone into Dorne and the captain that secretly smuggled them there was killed. So, there is just no way that is a Lannester or KL boat - it's controlled by Dorne. There is no way they can convince me that Jamie and Bronn could overcome the men that would have naturally been sent with Trystane AND the sailors on that boat for a several day journey and FORCE them to go to KL. No way.

So if its a Dornish boat (and it has to be) and Jamie and Bronn can't take over (and they can't) then the only way they get to KL is if Trystane agrees and why in the world would he b stupid enough to do THAT if Myrcella is dead? I don't care how much nonsense the Dorne plot has amounted to - he can't be that dumb.

Ergo to me there are only three options that make any kind of sense at all:

1. Trystane carries poison antidote around on him at all times just because he grew up in Dorne and saves Myrcella's life and they go on to KL.....or slutty smurf (I mean sand snake) slipped Bronn some antidote during that weird ear biting scene and he gets to save Myrcella's life and they go on to KL.

2.Jamie hides Myrcella's body from Trystane the entire way back to KL so the boy doesn't realize she's dead and they end up in KL rather super quickly before the body starts to rot. (I don't really find this believable, but I will put it out there as possible).

3. That boat doesn't go to KL and we are in for Jamie and Bronn road trip part deux next season. This could happen by Jamie confronting Trystane, a fight ensuing, and the two of them have to jump overboard to live and they wind up running into Gendry and his row boat. Or they could get taken hostage as Trystane does sail for Meereen (please oh please let this be the case!). Or they go back to Dorne for more boring, nonsensical plot that disappoints me to no end (most likely in my opinion).

ostentatious · June 25, 2015

Yeah, if they really wanted to make this work to get Trystane to KL and thus probably subject to Cersei's wrath, they should've had Ellaria give her a poison robe or something that she only put on much later, not less than a quarter mile out to sea. Or a pendant that melts with body heat. There's just no way Trystane would voluntarily go to KL now, no way he wouldn't have the boat turned around immediately, and they're within sight of land so no other entity could abduct them.

However, I believe he'll end up there, and suspect that he'll be the catalyst for Jaime bailing on Cersei once and for all. She'll demand he kill the kid, Jaime will remember that one time she tried to get him to maim or murder Arya, and he'll know about Lancel by that point.

I think he'll go on to have roughly his AFFC storyline, though I'm not sure the trip will be about the Riverlands/Riverrun/Tully and Frey stuff but rather the march North to join up with the forces from the Vale that LF promised and take Winterfell. If Jaime is heading up to fight the Boltons, leading the Crown's forces, that gives Ramsay and Roose a very specific reason to think Jaime Lannister as an individual is an enemy and #1 problem to be eradicated, which would give Ramsay an excellent reason to threaten to flay Pod and force Brienne to go lie to Jaime and separate him from his army and bring him in, thus putting him in the LSH role I have thought he was going to fulfill since pre-S5. It's really kind of perfect, since Roose would know better than anyone that Brienne can be an excellent tool against Jaime. Logistically it works better for me than LSH did in the first place. And if Ramsay has recaptured Sansa, that brings in oaths for Brienne.

Edited June 25, 2015 by ostentatious

Hecate7 · June 25, 2015

See, the thing is, when GRRM started writing this series, twenty or so years ago, it was just one of a plethora of fantasy novels that readers could pick up and enjoy. Any subtle references to deeper secrets and obscure truths were not expected to be endlessly studied, analysed and dissected by a legion of passionate fans. The internet didn't even exist.

References to Jon's possible parentage were hidden in the text, behind flowery prose (sorry, pun not intended) and vague prophecy. Individual readers might pick up on things and wonder, they might even reread and try to nail down all the hints and clues, and figure out for themselves that there's a bigger secret, hidden underneath it all. But it wasn't something GRRM would have ever expected to become such a big deal, because I doubt he ever dreamed that the books would become this cultural phenomenon.

R+L=J is not the most obvious answer, or at least it wasn't when the books were published. It has become that because people have spent the best part of two decades obsessing over it. So I don't see GRRM 'proving us wrong' as a good thing, because readers figuring it out in the first place isn't a bad thing.

I think the image GRRM has cultivated as a master of the unexpected does neither him nor fans of the franchise any favours. I think that's where the desire to second guess everything comes from. So to me, there's little doubt that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, because that is the storyline that makes most sense from a fantasy narrative perspective. Defying sense just to say 'ha! I fooled you' seems like an unnecessary diversion to me.

It also seems more about a dislike for close readers and fans who do obsess and debate, than a desire for a more satisfying narrative or any sort of consideration of the story from a literary angle.

Audreythe2nd · June 25, 2015

I'm going to add to the theories about what happens to the group on that Dornish boat. Is it possible that they don't get to King's Landing at all, but instead end up on Tarth? Yes, I know this is a departure that might not make any sense from the books, but the show did set up that little nugget during episode 4 I think where Tarth was on the way from KL to Dorne. It could have been just so Jaime could make brief, googly eyes at Brienne's homeland, but maybe it was also set up to have it be their getaway. I don't know how exactly, but geographically it makes sense for them to try to get the heck off of that boat either to help Myrcella, or to escape what is clearly a trap, or for Jaime to avoid like hell going back to King's Landing with Myrcella's body, where he probably can't bear to face Cersei. As for what happens there I don't know, and how Trystane fits into this I also don't know. BUT it would possibly set up Brienne finding Jaime there, in her homeland. Maybe Jaime starts getting news of Cersei from there.

which would give Ramsay an excellent reason to threaten to flay Pod and force Brienne to go lie to Jaime and separate him from his army and bring him in, thus putting him in the LSH role I have thought he was going to fulfill since pre-S5. It's really kind of perfect, since Roose would know better than anyone that Brienne can be an excellent tool against Jaime. Logistically it works better for me than LSH did in the first place.

Oooh, now this is interesting and consolidates a lot of characters and would be a nice callback to when Roose and Jaime/Brienne were all together in Season 3. Trouble is, if the show was going to head this route, they need to have a damn good reason and fast for the Boltons to want Brienne to bring Jaime to them. I can't see a scenario right now for Jaime to be focused on some sort of resistance against the Boltons/Freys, at least not quickly (and it might need to be somewhat quickly if there are only two seasons left). In any case, if the show is going to go with the "Brienne finds Jaime again" cliffhanger (which, in the books, kind of seems like it might be important to whatever happens to Jaime in the long run) they're going to have to think of something.

Sidenote: I'm always shocked to hear that people think Cersei is "whitewashed" on the show compared to the books (I'm not a book reader, I just spoil myself on the internet). I think any further villainy from her on the show would put her at Littlefinger levels of moustache twirliness. She's not sympathetic to me at all (well, not until the walk of shame, but I think it was necessary for us to sympathize with her during that scene or it would not have worked).

ostentatious · June 25, 2015

Well, I think Roose would obviously know that the armies were heading North...I am going to assume that Kevan is Regent and operating in KL. Jaime would be the obvious one to lead some sort of march north, after they get word of Stannis being wiped out. I think you'd have to spend most of the season with Brienne trying to get Sansa to...well, speaking of Tarth, isn't that the place she would take her? But Sansa might want to go north since she knows her brothers may be alive and Theon may have some vague idea they went north. I think there are reasons they could use to take them north or south, whatever is needed. Ramsay would have to be after them and finally capture them in 608/609, and then you'd have the cliffhanger at the end of the season. It could go a number of ways but I think it's easy to move these chess pieces into position.

I think if Roose knows Jaime is the/one of the generals leading the armies to Winterfell, and knows Ramsay can force Brienne to do whatever they want, throwing the army into disarray by capturing Jaime - who, if the incest doesn't come up, is the King's uncle, nephew of the Hand/Regent/whatever they do with Kevan, thus also a valuable prisoner - would be more than attractive enough to loose Ramsay on Brienne and Pod. And Pod being flayed, whether Sansa gets recaptured or not, would be plenty of motivation for Brienne to have her crisis of oaths.

CofCinci · June 26, 2015

Fooling the audience for the sake of fooling them is boring. Anticlimactic writing is very boring, and I don't think Martin would make that mistake.

20+years ago when he had the idea, it was innovative and fresh.

Avaleigh · June 26, 2015

My current (and wild i.e. probably not going to happen) speculation:

I think the premiere is going to open with a bang and we're going to get Loras demanding a trial by combat. It'll seem like he's going to win at first but Lancel ends up killing him. The twist here is that since the gods have judged Loras to be guilty then that means that Margaery's fate too has already been decided so she's executed right along with him.

Meanwhile have Cersei all nervous about her own trial by combat especially once she finds out that Lancel has defeated Loras. Gregorstein ends up killing Lancel but just as Cersei is feeling relieved in the next scene she's finding out about Myrcella so life is back to being shit again for her.

Jaime tries to explain to Cersei that he saw for himself that Trystane loved Myrcella and would have cherished her had he been given the chance. Cersei doesn't give a fuck and has Trystane killed anyway even though Jaime makes it clear that he'll be done with her if she does this. Cersei tells him that she doesn't care and that she's been done with him for years and Lancel should be proof of that.

Have Kevan and maybe Cersei talk about having Kevan's daughter Janei married off to Walder Frey now that the old guy is single again. Maybe send Jaime (and Bronn) as part of Janei's escort in order to punish him. Invite the Boltons to the wedding. Have the Blackfish, Brienne, an Umber, Thoros, and Nymeria all make late arrivals.

Arya catches a ride back with Mace but their ship ends up being overtaken by one of Euron's. Arya obviously survives but Mace is taken out.

Another thought on Euron is that he'll kill some members of Sam's family specifically his brother, mother, and sisters.

Sansa and Theon meet up with Littlefinger. (This one is tough. I like the idea of Sansa running into Brienne obviously but I don't see that there is all that much for Brienne to do in Winterfell apart from guarding Sansa. How do we get her connected with Jaime again? That's the only reason why I'm leaning towards Sansa running into Littlefinger first over Brienne. Plus LF and Sansa are together in the books while Jaime and Brienne are together.) They'll head back to Winterfell or possibly the Vale. Robin's fate is decided now that LF feels like he has his ducks in a row. If Ramsay's death happens maybe Sansa even has a quick marriage to Robin to establish herself as the Lady of the Vale. If Sansa does marry Robin then I'd expect Robin's death to happen shortly afterward.

Dany is abducted by the khalasar and Drogon doesn't immediately come to her rescue. Since it seems like Daario and Jorah are going to find the ring that Dany was "smart" enough to leave and it won't have been trampled into the ground by thousands of riders, I'm guessing that Dany is going to spend some more time roughing it.

While Daario and Jorah are on the way to find her, Jorah starts to show more signs and Daario finally figures out what's up. He tells Jorah to hit the road or he'll kill him. Jorah asks to stick around long enough to help him save Dany and once she's safe and they've done their duty, Jorah promises to kill himself or will allow Daario to do it for him. Alternatively, I can see Jorah seeing that Daario has been infected as well and arguing that if Daario can stay then so should Jorah just until they've rescued Dany and then they can either kill themselves or go to Valyria to live among the Stone Men.

Have the Lord of Light/red priests be a major presence this season. With Varys and Tyrion talking to a red priestess, maybe have Euron interact with the character of Moqorro, and then of course Melisandre with Jon. Maybe even Thoros of Myr will be able to show up.

One detail, I would love, love, love, love, and I'm keeping my fingers crossed that somebody on the staff has the presence of mind to agree with me that it would be great if Tommen brought up being disturbed to hear that his cousin Shireen was recently killed by her father. I think it would work well as a conversation between him and Cersei and we could again get a hint about how she would burn King's Landing to the ground if anybody tried to kill Tommen. I'd love to hear that even a villain like Cersei wouldn't do what Stannis did to Shireen.

As for what would make Varys separate from Tyrion to go back to King's Landing, maybe that can be his assignment from Tyrion or even Dany? Dany & co. are ready to invade but it's probably better to do a little housekeeping prior to their arrival. Maybe Kevan makes a few sensible decisions that make Varys and Tyrion feel that he's doing too good of a job. Maybe Kevan somehow puts a muzzle on the Faith Militant after what happens with the Tyrells. Maybe he makes a deal with LF about getting food from the Vale after Olenna flips out and cuts the people off.

I'm at a loss as to how Jon's story is going to play out. I feel like anything can happen here.

nksarmi · June 26, 2015

That was a lot of speculation!!!! :)

A few quick thoughts - first, I still refuse to accept that Jamie and Bron (and Trystane) will be in KL in episode one. I don't know where they will be, but my head will explode if it's KL. I will accept (and actually hope for) Meereen. I will accept that boat being taken by Euron. I will also accept (though I do not want it), them turning around and going back to Dorne. But there is NO way I realistically see a Cersei/Jamie reunion until at least mid-way through season six. Heck, he may not even see her again (since he doesn't appear all that close in the books) until she goes completely nuts and its time for him to kill her (I really do believe he is the little brother of her prophesy).

Second, I don't think - though I could be wrong - that Marg or Loras are going to die in book six or season six of the show. I say this because Loras isn't in danger in the books and GRRM has recently said the Tywell brothers are important. And in the books, I remain unconvinced that she will be convicted of anything. Now for meta reasons - despite our vast speculation that D&D wanted to mostly protect book six from viewers - he did go ahead and burn Shireen to our outrage. I believe with as much money as these two actors likely cost (and I've at least seen Natalie Dormer on other projects) - that if they were going to die anyway, it probably would have been cheaper to cut some stupid Dorne bit or one of the slower Ayra scenes (I love the character but her story did drag a bit at this part of the books and it translated to the same on screen) and go ahead and cover their deaths this season. That way, they wouldn't have had to pay either actor next season and they could have gone ahead and had the realm go nuts over it.

Because I really believe if the FM kills Marg, the people will turn against them. The people hate Cersei but they LOVE Marg. That is not a death that would empower a man who wants to claim - we are the many, you are the few. And there is no way people would accept the death of their beloved queen because she lied to protect her gay brother (I'm sure there are many gays among the little people too). Finally, that stupid scene between LF and Olenna has to amount to something - I don't think there is anyway that Marg doesn't come out of all of this looking like an angel juxtaposed to Cersei's devil. But if Loras does demand TBC - I so want to see him kill Lancel. The show version has none of the complexity that made me feel sympathy for his book counterpart - instead I just hate him.

Avaleigh · June 26, 2015

That was a lot of speculation!!!! :)

A few quick thoughts - first, I still refuse to accept that Jamie and Bron (and Trystane) will be in KL in episode one. I don't know where they will be, but my head will explode if it's KL. I will accept (and actually hope for) Meereen. I will accept that boat being taken by Euron. I will also accept (though I do not want it), them turning around and going back to Dorne. But there is NO way I realistically see a Cersei/Jamie reunion until at least mid-way through season six. Heck, he may not even see her again (since he doesn't appear all that close in the books) until she goes completely nuts and its time for him to kill her (I really do believe he is the little brother of her prophesy).

Second, I don't think - though I could be wrong - that Marg or Loras are going to die in book six or season six of the show. I say this because Loras isn't in danger in the books and GRRM has recently said the Tywell brothers are important. And in the books, I remain unconvinced that she will be convicted of anything. Now for meta reasons - despite our vast speculation that D&D wanted to mostly protect book six from viewers - he did go ahead and burn Shireen to our outrage. I believe with as much money as these two actors likely cost (and I've at least seen Natalie Dormer on other projects) - that if they were going to die anyway, it probably would have been cheaper to cut some stupid Dorne bit or one of the slower Ayra scenes (I love the character but her story did drag a bit at this part of the books and it translated to the same on screen) and go ahead and cover their deaths this season. That way, they wouldn't have had to pay either actor next season and they could have gone ahead and had the realm go nuts over it.

Because I really believe if the FM kills Marg, the people will turn against them. The people hate Cersei but they LOVE Marg. That is not a death that would empower a man who wants to claim - we are the many, you are the few. And there is no way people would accept the death of their beloved queen because she lied to protect her gay brother (I'm sure there are many gays among the little people too). Finally, that stupid scene between LF and Olenna has to amount to something - I don't think there is anyway that Marg doesn't come out of all of this looking like an angel juxtaposed to Cersei's devil. But if Loras does demand TBC - I so want to see him kill Lancel. The show version has none of the complexity that made me feel sympathy for his book counterpart - instead I just hate him.

I know! It didn't initially start out that way I assure you. I kept coming back to the post and adding.

In my scenario where Jaime and Trystane do go back to KL I would think that it would happen around episode 3. I agree that it doesn't make sense for them to be anywhere other than on the ship in the premiere.

Also, I like the speculation that the boat goes to Meereen but I don't think we'll be that lucky. Plus I think that Jaime is due to see Brienne again and that's not even close to being in the right direction.

The main reason I'm convinced that Margaery is going to die is because of the sharp difference in the charges against her in the show vs. the books. In the show the charges that are against her are perfectly true and the fact that the showrunners have made this decision makes me think it's because she's going to get convicted. The other thing is the fact that Margaery hasn't been sprung from jail by Randyll Tarly. Loras has been in jail since episode 4 of this past season while Cersei has been allowed to leave. To me this doesn't imply anything good for Team Tyrell.

I'm positive that they've built up Lancel into looking more tough than he used to so that we'll be able to swallow seeing him slay one of the best fighters in the realm. Loras vs. Lancel I can just seen Lancel managing to squeak out a win. Lancel vs. Frankengregor--no freaking way. I wonder how the High Sparrow will feel when he sees his main guy taken down by the likes of Cersei's champion? I'll admit I'm looking forward to seeing his facial expressions here not to mention how he'd feel about the judgement of the gods upon seeing that happen.

Edited June 26, 2015 by Avaleigh

benteen · June 26, 2015

Yeah, I can't see either Book or Show Lancel taking out Show Loras, even if he is a pale shadow of his book self. But this show has created SUPER RAMSAY, who can fight anyone without armor or even a shirt so I wouldn't put anything past it.

Edited June 26, 2015 by benteen

mac123x · June 26, 2015

Personally, I'd prefer it if Jon self-resurrects from his own funeral pyre. It'd make a nice parallel to Dany's "rebirth" in the Drogo's funeral pyre. I'm resigned to the fact that Mel will probably pull a Thoros/Beric move though. Either way, Thormund and crew witness his rebirth (after having slaughtered the NW stabbers), and follow him to Winterfell, dragging Mel along with them. They take the castle back from the Boltons, hopefully with Wun-Wun popping Ramsey's skull like a zit.

Fooling the audience for the sake of fooling them is boring. Anticlimactic writing is very boring, and I don't think Martin would make that mistake.

I found the answer to "who paid the guy to kill Bran" extremely anticlimactic. GRRM did a good job of showing (later) how a lot of the early events were due to Littlefinger intentionally setting the Starks against the Lannisters (killing Jon Aryn, having Lysa write that letter, manipulating Ned in Kings Landing like a marionette, etc.) His manipulations succeeded, but the main catalyst for the war, Catlyn's kidnapping Tyrion, was due to something he had nothing to do with.

Who tried to kill Bran? Who wanted to silence him? Oh, sorry, no one was trying to silence him, it was just Joffrey and his daddy issues. I rolled my eyes.

SeanC · June 26, 2015

A few quick thoughts - first, I still refuse to accept that Jamie and Bron (and Trystane) will be in KL in episode one. I don't know where they will be, but my head will explode if it's KL. I will accept (and actually hope for) Meereen. I will accept that boat being taken by Euron. I will also accept (though I do not want it), them turning around and going back to Dorne. But there is NO way I realistically see a Cersei/Jamie reunion until at least mid-way through season six. Heck, he may not even see her again (since he doesn't appear all that close in the books) until she goes completely nuts and its time for him to kill her (I really do believe he is the little brother of her prophesy).

Second, I don't think - though I could be wrong - that Marg or Loras are going to die in book six or season six of the show. I say this because Loras isn't in danger in the books and GRRM has recently said the Tywell brothers are important. And in the books, I remain unconvinced that she will be convicted of anything.

From the way Weiss talks about the Dorne plot in the Inside the Episode for 510, it seems assumed that Jaime is still heading back to King's Landing.

Loras isn't in danger in the books, he was mortally wounded in the siege of Dragonstone and is on the brink of death (unless you believe one of the Tyrell conspiracy theories, but I don't). GRRM was referring to Willas and Garlan, who I expect will be important in the Reach, but their roles will likely be given to Randyll Tarly in the show, particularly as TV Loras is such a farcical figure.

I found the answer to "who paid the guy to kill Bran" extremely anticlimactic. GRRM did a good job of showing (later) how a lot of the early events were due to Littlefinger intentionally setting the Starks against the Lannisters (killing Jon Aryn, having Lysa write that letter, manipulating Ned in Kings Landing like a marionette, etc.) His manipulations succeeded, but the main catalyst for the war, Catlyn's kidnapping Tyrion, was due to something he had nothing to do with.

Who tried to kill Bran? Who wanted to silence him? Oh, sorry, no one was trying to silence him, it was just Joffrey and his daddy issues. I rolled my eyes.

Littlefinger being behind it never made any sense as an idea. It was simply not plausible given the timeline and geography, for starters, and more to the point, Catelyn running into Tyrion on the Kingsroad and Catelyn deciding to arrest him could never have been predicted. It was a spontaneous incident.

morgankobi · June 26, 2015

Personally, I'd prefer it if Jon self-resurrects from his own funeral pyre. It'd make a nice parallel to Dany's "rebirth" in the Drogo's funeral pyre. I'm resigned to the fact that Mel will probably pull a Thoros/Beric move though. Either way, Thormund and crew witness his rebirth (after having slaughtered the NW stabbers), and follow him to Winterfell, dragging Mel along with them. They take the castle back from the Boltons, hopefully with Wun-Wun popping Ramsey's skull like a zit.

I like really this idea (The Watch all dead and Thormund there), but I also have to say that the "NW Stabbers" totally sounds like sports team.

bunnyblue · June 26, 2015

Personally, I'd prefer it if Jon self-resurrects from his own funeral pyre. It'd make a nice parallel to Dany's "rebirth" in the Drogo's funeral pyre. I'm resigned to the fact that Mel will probably pull a Thoros/Beric move though. Either way, Thormund and crew witness his rebirth (after having slaughtered the NW stabbers), and follow him to Winterfell, dragging Mel along with them. They take the castle back from the Boltons, hopefully with Wun-Wun popping Ramsey's skull like a zit.

Hmm, I like your ideas very much. Especially Tormund and the Wildings going apeshit on the traitorous Night's Watch for killing their savior. I really want a resurrected Jon and his army of Wildlings to march to Winterfell and destroy the Boltons. Maybe the Thenns can enjoy some Ramsay stew.

nksarmi · June 26, 2015

From the way Weiss talks about the Dorne plot in the Inside the Episode for 510, it seems assumed that Jaime is still heading back to King's Landing.

Loras isn't in danger in the books, he was mortally wounded in the siege of Dragonstone and is on the brink of death (unless you believe one of the Tyrell conspiracy theories, but I don't). GRRM was referring to Willas and Garlan, who I expect will be important in the Reach, but their roles will likely be given to Randyll Tarly in the show, particularly as TV Loras is such a farcical figure.

Littlefinger being behind it never made any sense as an idea. It was simply not plausible given the timeline and geography, for starters, and more to the point, Catelyn running into Tyrion on the Kingsroad and Catelyn deciding to arrest him could never have been predicted. It was a spontaneous incident.

Ok what I should have said about Loras was that he wasn't in danger from the FM. I guess the show runners could just toss their hands up in the air and say well dead is still dead, but dear lord - if they take a character who was wounded in battle and died slowly of his wounds and have him killed for being gay - I just don't know what to say - even I would consider that anti-gay. They can't go there can they?

Hmm, I like your ideas very much. Especially Tormund and the Wildings going apeshit on the traitorous Night's Watch for killing their savior. I really want a resurrected Jon and his army of Wildlings to march to Winterfell and destroy the Boltons. Maybe the Thenns can enjoy some Ramsay stew.

I could really enjoy this though I do want Edd (I think that is his name) spared. But yea, I remain hopeful that as much as I hate Mel for what she did to Shireen that her (show only?) vision of seeing herself in Winterfell and Bolton banners fallen does in fact come true with Jon at the lead. And I hope it happens early in season six - we really need some high notes early on in my opinion.

Lady S. · June 27, 2015

Lol, so Carice all but confirmed Jon's resurrection, and Emilia thinks Kit's chances of returning are at least 50/50.

“You’ve seen her clock Jon Snow, which is a great ending because you think, ‘Uh oh, what’s going to happen there?’,” Van Houten says of her character’s appearance in the finale.

“You feel that she is concentrating more and more towards Jon Snow … there are slight hints that something’s going to happen.”

So, will this “something” be Jon Snow’s miraculous return at the hands of Melisandre’s magic?

The rumours of Jon Snow and Melisandre teaming up have been rife since she attempted to seduce him back in episode four.

While Van Houten is obviously under strict orders not to share too much information about the show’s future, she does let slip that something big is in store for Melisandre.

“I was doing ADR the other day and then the producer was there and he was saying something that I’ve heard before, which is quite spectacular, for next year, which I really can’t say anything about,” the 38-year-old teased.

Bill1978 · June 27, 2015

So Emilia thinks a character whose actor apparently was thrown a wrap party has a 50/50 chance of living. Either only Westerosi actors were invited to the wrap party so Emilia had no idea about farewelling Kit or Emilia forget that she is meant to be playing along about the wrap party

Lady S. · June 27, 2015

So Emilia thinks a character whose actor apparently was thrown a wrap party has a 50/50 chance of living. Either only Westerosi actors were invited to the wrap party so Emilia had no idea about farewelling Kit or Emilia forget that she is meant to be playing along about the wrap party

She also talks about buying him drinks, so I feel she and the rest of the cast would have been there if he was really leaving. Kit, Natalie, and Maisie went to see her play and visited her backstage without ever doing a scene with her. The only person who mentioned a wrap party is Kitten himself, right? And he didn't mention any gifts or special moments like lesser cast members like Kerry Ingram and his ex Rose Leslie got, so yeah, he's full of shit.

Happy Harpy · June 27, 2015

Loved all the speculations! Here's mine on a few points.

I think the season opener will be Bran. Maybe even pre-opening theme. They'll need to remind the audience of his existence, and show his progress -reason why he was benched, after all. Moreover, people will be waiting above all, imo, for the confirmation (or rather, infirmation) of Jon's fate and checking on Bran is a way to keep them on pins and needles just a little bit more, without getting annoyed as they might get if any other cliffhanger from the S5 finale is getting precedence over Jon's.

I even think they might insert the ToJ flashback...or at least, one: Bran seeing through Ned's eyes, arriving in a room to find a woman on a bed of blood with a crying baby in her arms...cue to Jon Snow lying in his blood, and resurrection (I won't speculate on this point. Still cruising the Nile).

About KL, there are so many options re: Loras&Margaery, trial by combat, Cersei and Jaime.

Imo, considering the current state of their relationship, I don't see Jaime washing his hands off Cersei. So, either the trial takes place very early, before Jaime lands to KL. Either it happens a little bit later, after Myrcella's death causes the fallout between the twins...maybe also, Cersei refuses Jaime as her champion because he's crippled, opening his eyes about how things changed between them? On a side note, for now I mostly see reasons for Cersei to be the one who "breaks things off" (Jaime not there to protect her during the Walk, blaming Myrcella's death on him, his acceptation of Doran's conditions etc.). I hope it won't be the case because I always saw her as the little devil on his shoulder and walking away from their toxic relationship was for me a big step on his path of atonement.

I also wonder how Tarly Senior will find his place there? I think we might see him first with Sam making a stop at "home", on the way to Oldtown; as an introduction. But then...will he take over as a foe for Cersei in KL if both Tyrell siblings are offed? He's presented as a great warrior, so I thought he's mostly have a role in battles -maybe a Lannister vs Tyrell civil war, maybe with a surprising Martell/Tyrell alliance. I could also see that Margaery's fate is hanging in the balance until rather late in the season (episode 5/6, for example) and after having accomplished his role in the war/political storyline Randyll could be Frankengregor's adversary in a mirror of The Mountain vs the Viper, and end like Oberyn.

Of course, maybe Randyll will be first and foremost Euron's foe, and will have nothing to do with KL.

I could also see Jaime end up elsewhere, from Tarth to Braavos or Meereen or Pyke. But the Dark BwB casting call makes me think that at least one main character is going back to the Riverlands. I'm not sure that Brienne will be that character, now that she's up North and with Sansa; and with no Stoneheart in sight. So Jaime is the best candidate for me.

Wishful thinking more than speculation: losing his own daughter will make Jaime realize that he needs to fulfill his oath to Catelyn himself -also, maybe Cersei says something about Sansa's current whereabouts. He will take over part of Brienne's storyline, except he'll be with Bronn and not Pod. Meaning: He will find the Gravedigger -and learn that Arya is alive; he will meet Gendry -laying low, maybe protecting a little group of people from the Dark BwB?

Like this, Jaime could be involved in whatever important part of the plot is happening in the Riverlands -I can't imagine fillers at this point- even only as a witness/audience proxy for events like Walder Frey's "promised" comeuppance in S6.

I hoped that Arya would be out of the HoBw by the end of S5, and still hope that she can hop on Mace's boat in 6x01. But I like the idea of her as an insider in Euron's camp. Maybe D&D will want to ensure that a popular character is there to get the general audience interested in a newcomer so late in the game -especially as people will get imo more impatient for characters' reunions*cough* Stark kids*cough*- and I like Yara very much, but I'm not sure she'd be enough of a draw.

AshleyN · June 28, 2015

For some reason I've been thinking that we'll get a Bran-o-vision as either the first or last scene of the premiere. Like you said, after being benched for a year I feel like they're going to want to do something big to make his return seem important. I don't think we'll be getting the Tower of Joy right away though. Partly because I don't think that Jon will be coming back right away, and partly because (assuming it is a Bran vision) I think they'd want to do a couple of smaller visions before getting to that one, which should be a huge. Wasn't there a casting call that sounded a lot like a young Ned and Brandon? Perhaps that'll be the first one. Although it might not be big enough for a season-opener type scene so who knows? They also might not want to open the season with another flashback after doing that for this season already.

I saw some speculation that perhaps we'll get a couple of flashbacks sprinkled throughout different episodes, culminating in the Tower of Joy. If they do plan to wait before bringing Jon back, that could work as a way of bringing the two together.

Edited June 28, 2015 by AshleyN

Chris24601 · June 28, 2015

My prediction... Not only will Jon return, he'll also reunite with at least one other Stark (although by this point he'll know he's actually not Ned's son and ergo we still won't have an actual Stark kids reunion).

One thing I'm bearing in mind is that if there's going to be any sort of ending romance for Jon that isn't a purely political arrangement, they're going to need to start setting it up in s6 if its going to have time to be properly developed (presuming 7 is the last season). I base this off the spans devoted to Robb's romance and to Jon/Yggret amongst others.

If so, I definitely think his cousin Sansa is probably a more likely prospect than his aunt Dany, owing to Sansa likely heading towards the Wall after her escape which would allow for the necessary build up.

Beyond that, I echo the sentiment that Jon will probably be free of his vows and align with the Wildlings/Free Men in taking out the Boltons and retaking Winterfell as a new base of operations just in time for the White Walkers to bring down the Wall and slaughter the Nightwatch in ep9.

While others want them killed sooner I actually want the NW traitors to survive right up to when the Walkers arive so they can realize to the depths of their souls just how well and truly fucked they are because they wouldn't listen to Jon. Edd can be the lone survivor who heads to Winterfell to warn Jon of the Wall's fall.

Actually getting Jon, Sansa, Theon, Brienne, Pod, Davos, Edd and maybe Bran via the Winterfell Weirwood would put just about everyone even remotely sympathetic whose still in Westeros all in one of the few places that I could withstand the Walkers (due to its hotsprings and godswood probably being an anathama to the Walkers and their dead... just as the one Bran went to last season was).

At some point before the story ends all these disparate plotlines need to converge and coming back around to where the story mostly started at Winterfell would be the most appropriate place I could think of for that to happen.

morgankobi · June 28, 2015

Have there been any flashbacks on the show? I can't think of any at the moment. It seems odd to start using a convention like that, this far into a series.

Skeeter22 · June 28, 2015

Have there been any flashbacks on the show? I can't think of any at the moment. It seems odd to start using a convention like that, this far into a series.

Season 5 opened with a flashback. Cersei's prophecy from Maggy the Frog. I'm not sure why they bothered as it didn't really pay off at all.

ElizaD · June 28, 2015

I saw some speculation that perhaps we'll get a couple of flashbacks sprinkled throughout different episodes, culminating in the Tower of Joy.

I too think this is what will happen. It would be strange to start with the TOJ and then see a flashback of little Ned with Robert and Brandon. The vision with the kids seems like it could be one of the first uses of Bran's power, and when he grows more skilled he'll discover the truth about Jon and have an epic TOJ vision.

I wonder, could they be casting an actress they're already familiar with as Lyanna? IIRC Dormer auditioned for a season 1 role and was the first season 2 actor announced, a month before the others. If they already had a Lyanna in mind they wouldn't need a casting call.

AshleyN · June 28, 2015

Have there been any flashbacks on the show? I can't think of any at the moment. It seems odd to start using a convention like that, this far into a series.

Like Skeeter said, Season 5 opened with a Cersei flashback. But the main reason I, and I think most of us, are speculating about them is because it seems like it would be difficult to do Bran's story without at least a couple of them. And Bran has generally been the character that's made them break their self-imposed rules (like no dream sequences, which they broke way back in the first season).

At some point before the story ends all these disparate plotlines need to converge and coming back around to where the story mostly started at Winterfell would be the most appropriate place I could think of for that to happen.

I'm kind of torn on this: on the one hand I love the idea of the story going back to where it started and Winterfell does seem like the most appropriate place for some kind of final showdown with the Others (shit, even the name makes it seem that way). On the other hand, I feel like they have to get a lot further south than that in order for the main idea of Westeros shooting itself in the foot by focusing on petty personal rivalries and ignoring the real threat to the realm to have an impact. I think it's really important that the Others can't just remain a Northern problem.

Happy Harpy · June 28, 2015

From the UO thread:

Something I want to get out is that I am not hyped for Cleganebowl, I'm not a full-blown Sansan shipper, but I'd rather his possible return had to do with her or literally with anyone else, since going from learning to let go of his anger and find peace to living for a lifelong grudge again would be major backtracking.

I agree. That's partly why I'd like Jaime and the Gravedigger to meet in the Riverlands [fairytale/] where conveniently, Gregorstein would have returned, and the Hound would follow Jaime and then have to kill his brother during a fight in order to save his/his party's life, because it's the right thing to do/because he has no choice and not because of his grudge. But he'd kill him all the same [/fairytale]. It would be more satisfying than any Cleganebowl for me, for the reasons you stated.

I wouldn't want the Hound to become too saintly, and I don't believe that a tiger can change his stripes anyway, but I don't see him either spending the rest of his life in a secluded place, he's a warrior at heart. I'd like too see him get rid of his bitterness and everything toxic in his life -but I'd like him to get "justice/revenge" and be free of the Grim Reaper. I could see Sandor as post-chip Spike, if you will, going all "let's slay demons, yeah!" not out of a tender heart but because that's what he likes to do, what he's meant to do.

It's another reason why I'd find it interesting if Jaime was to interact with Sandor, since they'd be both "reinventing" themselves.

Edit:

On the other hand, I feel like they have to get a lot further south than that in order for the main idea of Westeros shooting itself in the foot by focusing on petty personal rivalries and ignoring the real threat to the realm to have an impact. I think it's really important that the Others can't just remain a Northern problem.

Then, maybe Daenery's dream isn't only figurative (i.e, "Snow on the Iron Throne") but could reveal literal and she won't go North. It could explain why the Reach, Dorne and the Ironborn are still in the game/entering the game as far as S6, and why the Riverlands are back.

Maybe the Wall collapsing, the Boltons wiped out and KL burning will all happen during S6, and the WW will get past the Neck, while an odds and ends "Resistance" of former enemies gathers in the Crownlands (near the provision of dragonglass in Dragonstone, for example; yeah, I'm certain it will matter since Stannis mentioned it again in S5) instead of Winterfell.

Edited June 28, 2015 by Happy Harpy

Chris24601 · June 28, 2015

I'm kind of torn on this: on the one hand I love the idea of the story going back to where it started and Winterfell does seem like the most appropriate place for some kind of final showdown with the Others (shit, even the name makes it seem that way). On the other hand, I feel like they have to get a lot further south than that in order for the main idea of Westeros shooting itself in the foot by focusing on petty personal rivalries and ignoring the real threat to the realm to have an impact. I think it's really important that the Others can't just remain a Northern problem.

Actually, I think the White Walkers could get MUCH further south while still having the convergence be at Winterfell. Winterfell is a castle; not a wall.

Suppose there's something mythical and antithetical to the Walkers about Winterfell (beyond the obvious hot springs and weirwood/godswood). One theory is that Winterfell's very name comes from it being the place where Winter was defeated the last time.

So throw expectations out the window and have the Walkers drop the Wall/slaughter the NW within just a couple of episodes of Jon resurrecting. The northern protagonists band together and retake Winterfell in hopes of making a stand there since obviously they'd try to wipe out everything on their path south... only for the twist to be that the Walkers have completely bypassed Winterfell and instead of the Battle of Winterfell against the Walkers as the climax of s6, its the Walkers against the Vale or even the Riverlands in 9 and then during ep 10 it starts to snow in King's Landing and the final shot of the season is a Walker looking out at King's Landing in the distance.

The heroes then fight on two fronts with Winterfell pursuing a more spiritual CotF path to unlock the mystery of the Walkers while in the South Dany's forces team up with whoever's left from the KL crew and we get dragons burning down Walkers and the Walkers eventually being pulled back to Winterfell where everything combines for our grand finale in ep709 and then a resolution/ending in 710.

nksarmi · June 28, 2015

I like the idea of at least some of the Walkers bypassing Winterfell, but story still taking place there. My gut says this story ends where it began - at WF with the Starks. But I understand those who say the Others need to get South so everyone else feels the danger of Winter as well. So it could be interesting to see a resurrected Jon leading the North while Dany (and Tyrion I hope) bring up the South with dragons.

I feel like the three headed dragon has been hammered enough on the show (where as not so much some of the other prophesies) that it really does matter and I truly want to know who is the third head if we are right about Jon. Given how much Tyrion loved dragons as a child, everything about me wants him to ride one. I want that more than I want Tywin to be proven the fool for not loving him, but its a close second so I really am conflicted about Tyrion being a secret Targ.

But if it isn't him - that leaves young Aegon and there is no setup for that on the show yet. Because if Tystane equals Aegon - they dropped the ball there big time this season to make Dorne matter.

If it isn't Aegon OR Tyrion - who is the next best guess?

Happy Harpy · June 28, 2015

If it isn't Aegon OR Tyrion - who is the next best guess?

"You will not walk, but you will fly".[pet theory, again]

You can't be more of the "head" (as literaly in the head) of a dragon than a warg. :D

I want Tyrion to be and stay Tywin's son. Their story and tragedy loses imo too much resonance if he isn't. I can't help but feel that Tywin would have hated Tyrion less if he weren't his son, because imo the fact that a difform child was born from his blood infuriated him more than the fact that Joanna died in childbirth.

I want Tyrion to be the "Merlin" to Jon and Dany's dual "Arthur"...my ideal solution would be that Bran wargs in Viserion, allowing Tyrion to ride the dragon (hey, Tyrion gave Bran a way to ride a horse again, so Bran could return the favor). Like that, no need for more secret Targs; since one secret Targ is enough for me. Never going to happen, but it's nice to dream, LOL.

Edited June 28, 2015 by Happy Harpy

nksarmi · June 28, 2015

"You will not walk, but you will fly".[pet theory, again]

You can't be more of the "head" (as literaly in the head) of a dragon than a warg. :D

I want Tyrion to be and stay Tywin's son. Their story and tragedy loses imo too much resonance if he isn't. I can't help but feel that Tywin would have hated Tyrion less if he weren't his son, because imo the fact that a difform child was born from his blood infuriated him more than the fact that Joanna died in childbirth.

I want Tyrion to be the "Merlin" to Jon and Dany's dual "Arthur"...my ideal solution would be that Bran wargs in Viserion, allowing Tyrion to ride the dragon (hey, Tyrion gave Bran a way to ride a horse again, so Bran could return the favor). Like that, no need for more secret Targs; since one secret Targ is enough for me. Never going to happen, but it's nice to dream, LOL.

This is exactly how I thought it could play out myself, but I was pretty strongly rebutted with it has to be a Targ. I still like the idea though and it would be pretty damn amazing if Bran could warg a dragon. I just wanted to know if people had any theories about who out there could have enough Targ blood to complete the three heads (obviously Quentin wasn't enough).

Happy Harpy · June 28, 2015

This is exactly how I thought it could play out myself, but I was pretty strongly rebutted with it has to be a Targ. I still like the idea though and it would be pretty damn amazing if Bran could warg a dragon. I just wanted to know if people had any theories about who out there could have enough Targ blood to complete the three heads (obviously Quentin wasn't enough).

Did anyone ever tried to warg a dragon? If not, it ain't over 'til it's over :D

As far as Targ blood goes, the other candidates as secret rape Targ children are Cersei and Jaime. I don't see the former ever ride one, unless its name is "Winerion". Jaime is a really long shot for me, nothing seems to hint in that direction.

Then, I think the closest Targ relatives are Steffon Baratheon's descendants, which on the show resumes to Gendry. He's one of my favorite characters but I don't see it happening.

Lady S. · June 28, 2015

From the UO thread:

I agree. That's partly why I'd like Jaime and the Gravedigger to meet in the Riverlands [fairytale/] where conveniently, Gregorstein would have returned, and the Hound would follow Jaime and then have to kill his brother during a fight in order to save his/his party's life, because it's the right thing to do/because he has no choice and not because of his grudge. But he'd kill him all the same [/fairytale]. It would be more satisfying than any Cleganebowl for me, for the reasons you stated.

I wouldn't want the Hound to become too saintly, and I don't believe that a tiger can change his stripes anyway, but I don't see him either spending the rest of his life in a secluded place, he's a warrior at heart. I'd like too see him get rid of his bitterness and everything toxic in his life -but I'd like him to get "justice/revenge" and be free of the Grim Reaper. I could see Sandor as post-chip Spike, if you will, going all "let's slay demons, yeah!" not out of a tender heart but because that's what he likes to do, what he's meant to do.

It's another reason why I'd find it interesting if Jaime was to interact with Sandor, since they'd be both "reinventing" themselves.

Yeah, I think that'd be an ideal scenario for me. He and Bri have history on the show, but I feel like there's a lot of Jaime/Sandy parallels wrt to disillusionment with chivalry and cynicism covering up their surviving softness. Then Jaime starts to shed some of that cynicism after his behanding and bonding with Bri, and Sandy softens up somewhat due to the influence of both Stark sisters and then gets to recuperate peacefully and maybe deal with his raging PTSD. But then I also hoped for great Doran/Jaime talks about Jaime being the only KG when his father's man slaughtered Elia and her children, but that didn't happen either. Sigh.

MadMouse · June 28, 2015

"You will not walk, but you will fly".[pet theory, again]

You can't be more of the "head" (as literaly in the head) of a dragon than a warg. :D

I want Tyrion to be and stay Tywin's son. Their story and tragedy loses imo too much resonance if he isn't. I can't help but feel that Tywin would have hated Tyrion less if he weren't his son, because imo the fact that a difform child was born from his blood infuriated him more than the fact that Joanna died in childbirth.

I want Tyrion to be the "Merlin" to Jon and Dany's dual "Arthur"...my ideal solution would be that Bran wargs in Viserion, allowing Tyrion to ride the dragon (hey, Tyrion gave Bran a way to ride a horse again, so Bran could return the favor). Like that, no need for more secret Targs; since one secret Targ is enough for me. Never going to happen, but it's nice to dream, LOL.

Genna Lannister said best "Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you. I said so once to your father's face, and he would not speak to me for half a year". That to me is what makes the Tywin/Tyrion relationship so engaging. A father hates his son for being exactly like him and uses his own self loathing against him. Anybody who's had issues with a parent can relate to this.

Danny Franks · June 29, 2015

She also talks about buying him drinks, so I feel she and the rest of the cast would have been there if he was really leaving. Kit, Natalie, and Maisie went to see her play and visited her backstage without ever doing a scene with her. The only person who mentioned a wrap party is Kitten himself, right? And he didn't mention any gifts or special moments like lesser cast members like Kerry Ingram and his ex Rose Leslie got, so yeah, he's full of shit.

If it's just Kit being a jerk and teasing fans by claiming he's never going back, then that's fine. It's kind of funny, and the guy deserves to have some fun with the franchise. If it's actually HBO and/or Benioff and Weiss trying to maintain the lie that Jon is dead and gone, then it's seriously dopey, on their part. Because as shown, you can't get all your actors on the same page, let alone all the writers and crew and stagehands and props people and costumers. Nor can you hide the fact that Kit will be back in Belfast, filming scenes.

Honestly, I think it would take a full scale Stark reunion to get me watching again. Or an actual meeting between Jon and Dany, to prove or disprove theories that have flown around for years about them as a potential pairing. Other than that, I really don't care what happens on the show. I have no interest in who ends up on the Iron Throne, or which villain will be portrayed as omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent next.

Chris24601 · June 29, 2015

The only villains I want omnipresent next season are the Walkers. Hell, I want the Walkers slaughtering Ollie and the other traitors by 603 at the latest (presuming Jon to be resurrected at the end of 601 and rallying the Wildings to head south in 602).

604 they meet up with Sansa and Theon and get word from Edd (the only survivor of the NW massacre) that the Walkers are coming and the place that might be safe is Winterfell.

605 has Jon and the Wildings kick Bolton ass and Ramsey and Roose get eaten alive by Thenns and take control of Winterfell.

606-608 uas them preparing for the Walkers' inevitable attack, gathering as many as possible into the shelter of Winterfell (someplace where Sansa could have a chance to shine) and then finally making contact with Bran through the weirwood near the end of 608 just in time learn via Bran that the Walkers aren't coming to Winterfell, they're bypassing it entirely.

609 gives us a climactic battle between the Walkers and someone in the Riverlands which ends in a complete victory for the Walkers while the Winterfell people scramble to come up with a way to save the realm from the Walkers... perhaps by learning why the Walkers were so keen to avoid Winterfell.

Then at the close of 610 we see a Walker looking at King's Landing visible in the distance as snow begins to fall there while Jon learns the truth of himself and/or Winterfell (my thinking is some link exists between the ancient Starks and the ancient Valarians/Targarians which Jon embodies somehow).

That'd be the rough outline of my ideal 'Northern Arc' for s6. Dany/Tyrion's arc would be all about getting her forces ready to move so they can make it to Westeros at the very start of s7.

scarynikki12 · June 29, 2015

I want Dany (with Tyrion and her army) to finally arrive in Westeros in episode 9 and meeting up with Jon and whoever he's with (hopefully Sansa, Rickon, Ghost, and ShaggyDog!) to close out the season in episode 10. I want the seventh/final season to be her actively making her move for the Iron Throne. We've been watching her story unfold for five books/seasons and seen over and over that she intends to take back the throne. Even if it's a failed effort she actually needs to get off her ass and do it.

penelope79 · June 29, 2015

The Iron Bank's investment in Stannis on the show is looking dumber and dumber all the time. It made sense in the books when Cersei refused to pay the Crown's debt to them (yet another thing D&D changed on the show to whitewash her) but on the show it didn't.

Maybe Show!Cersei didn't refuse to pay the debt, but it's clear she doesn't care (at least, that was my impression after the s4 scene where Twyin tells her about the Crown's debt).

Re: R+L=J, even as an "unsullied" I think that's the theory that makes most sense. However, I agree that there could still be some other (possibly satistactory) explanation that nobody but GRRM thought about. That would actually be funny and pure genius from him and if that's the case, well... good for him and for us.

That said, I think that R+L=J theory will be confirmed, even though I'm not too fond to it. I remember very vividly how most of Harry Potter's book readers (me included) rightly guessed that Snape was a double agent and good after all. JK Rowling didn't backtrack even when Snape's theory was basically common knowledge and she was right, because Snape's story would've been pointless otherwise.

Of course, I'm not saying that JK Rowling and GRRM are the same, but they both seem unwilling to sacrifice a good story just because their readers proved to be smart enough to keep track of the clues they placed throughout the books.

For the record, though, I need to point out that sometimes theories just turn out to be huge red herrings or, worst. I'm sure all HP book readers remember all those speculations (and they were A LOT) about Marc Evans, a character who was just mentioned a couple of times but who shared the same last name of Harry's mother, Lily. Everybody started to guess that he was likely Lily's brother or a secret son and therefore secret Harry's brother and so on, I'll spare you the details. JK Rowling, though, explained that she didn't even realize that this character, who to be fair never show up in the books, had Lily's last name and that she chose that last name randomly. She admitted that it was a mistake from her part and that she never had any intention to make that character important. :)

But, again, I don't think this is the case. ;)

So Emilia thinks a character whose actor apparently was thrown a wrap party has a 50/50 chance of living. Either only Westerosi actors were invited to the wrap party so Emilia had no idea about farewelling Kit or Emilia forget that she is meant to be playing along about the wrap party

Yeah, this is actually funny. And I find even more funny (and lovely!) that she asked him: "WTF, are you leaving ME?" :D

My prediction... Not only will Jon return, he'll also reunite with at least one other Stark (although by this point he'll know he's actually not Ned's son and ergo we still won't have an actual Stark kids reunion).

One thing I'm bearing in mind is that if there's going to be any sort of ending romance for Jon that isn't a purely political arrangement, they're going to need to start setting it up in s6 if its going to have time to be properly developed (presuming 7 is the last season). I base this off the spans devoted to Robb's romance and to Jon/Yggret amongst others.
If so, I definitely think his cousin Sansa is probably a more likely prospect than his aunt Dany, owing to Sansa likely heading towards the Wall after her escape which would allow for the necessary build up.

Well, even if R+L=J is true, Jon is still a a half Stark because he's Lyanna's son, so I would still call it a Stark reunion.

Anyway, if he really has an endgame romance when (not if ) comes back, I really hope it's NOT with Sansa. Let's put aside the fact that Jon and Dany look like a match made in heaven and seem foreshadowed -even though she's probably his aunt :)- but my issue here is that he grew up considering Sansa his sister. Even though she's "just" his cousin, I trust them not to be Jamie/Cersei 2.0. Technically, of course, it would be an incest with Dany as well, but for some reason it would bother me less, probably because Jon and Dany have yet to know each other and, who knows, maybe they meet and fall in love before they learn about Jon's real parentage (I guess the audience will know before Jom himself).

Season 5 opened with a flashback. Cersei's prophecy from Maggy the Frog. I'm not sure why they bothered as it didn't really pay off at all.

Oh I don't know, I wouldn't say it didn't pay off. GoT isn't over and we will probably see more in future seasons. Besides, the prophecy told us that Cersei's children will all die young and, after Joffrey, this year we saw Myrcella die, her second child. I really believe that next year it will be poor Tommen's turn.

EDIT: because I didn't want to double post.

Edited June 29, 2015 by penelope79

FurryFury · June 29, 2015

I've always been baffled by the Jon/Sansa and Jon/Arya shipping because it feels totally out of the blue. It doesn't make any sense both from the in-story and out-of-story perspectives. And really, with Sansa, my perfect ending would be without any husband or with somebody she could control in some way. If we look at the beginning of her story, she was basically a wannabe-fairytale princess who, unfortunately, happened to be born into a world very different from a fairy tale. She was all about marrying and being dependent on men and naive. Her outgrowing her desire/dream for romance would be the most logical development for me.

As for Jon and Dany, I could at least understand the expectation because it could make sense thematically and structurally, although in my opinion, it's a bit too cheesy to happen in ASOIAF... But in the show, who knows. But I doubt they'll have enough time together for any real romance to develop.

Chris24601 · June 29, 2015

The reason I brought up that it would not technically be a reunion of Ned's kids is because that's exactly the sort of thing I could see D&D saying just to tweak fans.

As to Sansa vs. Dany. The show and the books made the point that Sansa and Jon really didn't spend any time around each other (Jon and Arya did though which is why they'd be creepy to me but Sansa not really) and my suspicion is that GRRM may have set that up deliberately.

While I once had warm-fuzzy feelings about Dany, that basically ended for me when she threw a man whose guilt she admitted she was uncertain of to her dragons where he was burned alive and ripped to pieces. She's got that same sort imperious disregard for others that Stannis did. I don't think that's an accident either when later that same season we see Stannis burn his innocent daughter alive.

That makes me not want her with Jon in the end as he's always been the closest thing to a hero and changing of his betrayal by removing his trying to use NW resources to aid his sister at Winterfell and making it solely because he tried to save lives from and win allies against the White Walkers just reinforces that point. He's the good guy who has no interest in ruling and that's why I suspect he's the one whose actually going to end up be King in his own right. After all, GRRM loves his subversions... and what better than the double subversion; Jon could be the hero, only it looks like the prophecies favor Dany right down to 'dragons have no gender' being realized, only that gets subverted with her being a little bit of a pyro/fanatic and the hero ends up being a legit hidden prince afterall.

Ultimately though I think it just comes down to timing. Dany probably can't make it to Westeros any sooner than the end of s6/start of s7 which gives them just one already jam-packed final season to fit a decent Jon/Dany romance in the mix while he could potentially meet up with Sansa in the first half of s6 and be in proximity with her right up to the finale. Jon doesn't give a damn about the 'game' so I don't see him settling for some sort of loveless political marriage (not to say that political advantage might be a result, just that I can't see it ever being his primary motivation... and let's be honest, if he saves the world from endless winter he doesn't NEED to worry about strengthening alliances because he's probably already forged them in the fight against the Walkers) so they're going to have to set up a groundwork where we believe Jon would want a marriage to the person in question.

Throw in the fact that Jon will most likely be the one to run her rapist through with Longclaw if he's going to take Winterfell with the Wildlings and that the preparations for a Walker attack where they're trying to gather as many as they can into shelter is probably a better atmosphere for heart-to-hearts than once the actual battle with the Walkers is joined (which is pretty much when Dany shows up) and I just think its probably an easier narrative to sell presuming that Jon ends up with anyone (I suppose he could also meet another fierce Wildling woman in s6... I'd be fine with Yggrett's twin sister turning up myself... particularly for the look of horror on the faces of the political class when they realize their new queen is an 'uncultured' woman who could personally run them through if they try to cross her).

Plus, there's the whole YMBQ prophecy is much better paid off if she's someone Cersei directly tormented and not a queen from across the sea she's never met until she shows up with dragons... which points to Sansa as queen over Dany.

I know GRRM has a reputation for random deaths and of subverting various tropes, but when binge watching the series, the deaths don't actually feel all that random and I can't help but wonder if he is indeed setting up a massive double subversion (ie. subverting the subversion) where the ending is actually traditional fantasy heroism made all the more powerful by all the 'unheroic' elements and subversions that preceded it.

Avaleigh · June 29, 2015

I've always been baffled by the Jon/Sansa and Jon/Arya shipping because it feels totally out of the blue. It doesn't make any sense both from the in-story and out-of-story perspectives. And really, with Sansa, my perfect ending would be without any husband or with somebody she could control in some way. If we look at the beginning of her story, she was basically a wannabe-fairytale princess who, unfortunately, happened to be born into a world very different from a fairy tale. She was all about marrying and being dependent on men and naive. Her outgrowing her desire/dream for romance would be the most logical development for me.

As for Jon and Dany, I could at least understand the expectation because it could make sense thematically and structurally, although in my opinion, it's a bit too cheesy to happen in ASOIAF... But in the show, who knows. But I doubt they'll have enough time together for any real romance to develop.

Based on GRRM's original outline for the story Jon ending up with a Stark daughter seems like it was meant to be the plan all along so I disagree with the idea that it would be coming out of left field. What surprised me most about this in that outline is that Jon and Arya had fallen in love while thinking that they were brother in sister. In all of the speculation that I've seen for Jon and Sansa (IMO this is easily more likely than Jon/Arya because of how strong the sibling bond is with Jon and Arya as opposed to Jon and Sansa) the idea is that they would first find out that they are cousins. I don't think that the squick factor applies in the way that it most certainly does with Arya.

I feel like Jon represents the sort of good and strong man that Ned would have wanted for Sansa while also representing the heroic prince that she used to dream that she would end up with.

I also think that Sansa is the YMB(Q) and that Jon is the best way that I can see Sansa becoming Queen since Aegon seems like he's probably going to burn out and die in WoW and is unlikely to ever appear on the show.

This piece on Tumblr I officially credit to swaying my opinion when I'd previously leaned towards Dany and Jon being the end game. http://blindestspot.tumblr.com/post/50820774456/jonxsansa It's pretty well done and thought out. Don't let the pic at the top of the page scare you into thinking it's some terrible fanfic. ;-)

I think the essay brings up some fair points about how the individual journeys and experiences of Jon and Sansa have set it up so that they'll be able to understand each other in a way that other characters won't necessarily be able to. Sansa spending time as a bastard is significant to me when it comes to this theory and I also like the observation the poster had about how similar Jon and Sansa's dreams are when they're thinking of how it would be to have children of their own and how the kids would have names of various dead Starks--they seem like they're on the same page when it comes to what an ideal family life would be.

ostentatious · June 29, 2015

Re: Tyrion as secret Targ. If we get any references from him to his old dragon dreams, IMO he is. No reason to throw that in at this point if there is no payoff. And if he doesn't reflect upon such things while in the awe-inspiring presence of dragons...I mean somebody's gotta keep feeding Dany's babies. If they're going to get this on the table, his dragon fascination comes in very nicely there.

I am kind of meh on it. I can't think of anyone I would prefer to see over him, doesn't bother me to have two secret Targs. However, I felt that scene with Dany where she stops him from drinking too much was so like all those scenes where he and Cersei are boozing it up that I thought well, if she really is his sister, this is a nice callback.

I agree with Bran's visions being the season opener. I also see him encountering Ghost and having some suspicious interaction there, well in advance of any other indication that's where Jon went. Other than the editing, of course. I'm feeling a direct cut from Melisandre and perhaps Tormund? being concerned over what she's about to do to something to do with Ghost, or the other way around.

If Sandor is the Faith's champion in Cleganebowl, I think it is compatible with his growth. However, they would have to get him on the table really quickly unless Cersei's trial is going to be her final storyline. Does he count as the valonquar if...would they hang her, or is that for plebs? If his winning means she hangs, it fits.

Happy Harpy · June 29, 2015

Jon and Sansa is something that I don't want to see happening, ever.

I hope that Sansa ends up with someone who is all but the perfect knight/prince she used to dream of when she was a stupid conceited little girl. I don't think it will be The Hound because imo the show eliminated 99% of the romantic elements of their relationship (on her side, especially) so there must be a reason for it. Tyrion, I could see it, since their relationship got the reverse treatment imo.

But really, my main wish for S6 Sansa is that she isn't pregnant with Ramsay's child. In the original draft, she was supposed to have Joffrey's child and bitterly regret it, and the show stressed that unfortunately, it's a very possible option with her current husband.

I think that the YMBQ is someone that Cersei never met and/or never considered. Not Margaery, not Sansa, then. I could see a double bluff with Dany, who seems obvious to the reader but would come out of left field for Cersei. Moreover, Dany and Tyrion possibly invading Westeros together could go in the sense of the YMBQ/Valonqar prophecy, if Tyrion is the latter. Dany takes everything and Tyrion takes her life (although I personally think it's Jaime and not Tyrion).

Arya would be the one who would truly surprise everyone, in universe and meta, plus Cersei being taken down by a Lyanna doppelganger would be poetic justice. Her association with the Valonqar/Tyrion would be possible if all the Essos main characters end up together. It's not what I wish for Arya, since I don't think that being a queen fits her aspirations, but she's still an option imo.

If there are 7 seasons and not 8, I think that it's a plot point that could be solved this season. I can see FrankenGregor winning the trial, and Cersei all smug and certain she triumphed again, only for Tommen to bite it, the kingdom to collapse under the assault of the WW, Euron's troops, and Dany's invasion, culminating with Cersei burning KL and dying at the hand of the Valonqar in 6-10, marking the end of the "petty rivalries" and the beginning of the Great War. I love LH and I'd be sorry to lose her, but I don't see Cersei surviving this season.

Edited June 29, 2015 by Happy Harpy

benteen · June 29, 2015

I'm hoping Sansa is pregnant by Ramsay either although I worry because that is the kind of thing I could absolutely see D&D doing.

nksarmi · June 29, 2015

I have been concerned about a Sansa pregnancy for awhile, but I'm crossing my fingers that it would be too off course from where she is in the books. Outside of the fact that Jon clearly has a thing for red heads - I don't like him with Sansa. Honestly, I kind of want Sansa and Tyrion to reunite and for her to now appreciate all that he was that she took for granted and that she will grow into a woman who can look past his face and appreciate his mind and his heart. But yea, talk about a beauty and the beast trope there so that probably won't happen!

I have serious questions to rather or not Dany and Jon will make it out of this story alive. As much as I expect Jon to be resurrected - that doesn't mean I think he will live at the end. However, if they are both alive - they could marry to unite the kingdoms, and I'm sure if they did - they would grow to love and admire each other but I don't know if they would be a good match. They are both way too serious - perhaps even too similar. They both need someone to balance them a little.

SeanC · June 29, 2015

I don't think it will be The Hound because imo the show eliminated 99% of the romantic elements of their relationship (on her side, especially) so there must be a reason for it.

I have no idea what will come of the Sansa/Hound interactions in the books, or how the show will or won't handle it, but I guarantee you that the reason they completely eliminated the romantic aspects of their interactions (and, really, eliminated most of their interactions, period) is because they thought it would be too creepy, given the actress's age at the time.

But really, my main wish for S6 Sansa is that she isn't pregnant with Ramsay's child. In the original draft, she was supposed to have Joffrey's child and bitterly regret it, and the show stressed that unfortunately, it's a very possible option with her current husband.

I'm not worried about that. The original draft pertained to her initial arc with Joffrey, which is over in the show. The only real comparison would be if she's going to have Harry Hardyng's kid in the books coming up, but I don't believe there's likely to be any story room for something like that.

Edited June 29, 2015 by SeanC

Happy Harpy · June 29, 2015

I have no idea what will come of the Sansa/Hound interactions in the books, or how the show will or won't handle it, but I guarantee you that the reason they completely eliminated the romantic aspects of their interactions (and, really, eliminated most of their interactions, period) is because they thought it would be too creepy, given the actress's age at the time.

It could be, but somehow it doesn't convince me. Imo, if Sansa/Sandor was to be her "end game" or something crucial to her (romantic) storyline, they'd have done the casting accordingly. I think that Rory McCann is fabulous as The Hound, but I'm certain that they could have found a great actor in a younger age range -instead of aging Sandor, unless I'm mistaken- and of the "Bishounen with scars" type (as he's often represented) if it had been necessary.

They didn't shy away from the Petyr/Sansa kiss and went for Sansa/Ramsay, which imo was wayyyy more traumatic/prone to raise outcry than even the most risqué book canon Sansa/Sandor interaction. I agree that the gap between our modern universe values and the ASOIAF universe values is a problem for a good number of pairings anyway; and Sansa/The Hound interaction is situated early in the series...but it's so innocuous in comparison. I also believe that most of the GoT viewership would be ready to root for any romantic interaction of the platonic kind, even with weird undertones or a big age difference, as long as it doesn't belong to the "rape and abuse" category.

I don't know either what the outcome will be, and although as primarily a show-watcher I was "huh?" when I realized that people shipped them (and that it was even an internet BFD, LOL) I have nothing against this pairing.

I can only wish you're right about Sansa re:pregnancy in book canon, but imo there's another very possible and very repulsive candidate in the Vale for fathering her child: Littlefinger himself. *jinx*

Edited June 29, 2015 by Happy Harpy

Avaleigh · June 29, 2015

I definitely think that Sansa will have a child before the series is over. I really, really hope it isn't Ramsay's but that should most certainly be a possibility.

Did anyone ever tried to warg a dragon? If not, it ain't over 'til it's over :D

As far as Targ blood goes, the other candidates as secret rape Targ children are Cersei and Jaime. I don't see the former ever ride one, unless its name is "Winerion". Jaime is a really long shot for me, nothing seems to hint in that direction.

Then, I think the closest Targ relatives are Steffon Baratheon's descendants, which on the show resumes to Gendry. He's one of my favorite characters but I don't see it happening.

The World book pretty much takes Jaime and Cersei out of the running for being children of Aerys. Tyrion on the other hand the world book ended up adding a lot more fuel to the fire. Even if people hate the theory I think it's significant that GRRM went out of his way to make sure that Joanna info was included. Not only that but one of the co-authors has gone on record saying that even though he doesn't like the AJT theory that the world book has definitely added support to it while pretty much making it clear that Jaime and Cersei are off of the table.

Genna Lannister said best "Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you. I said so once to your father's face, and he would not speak to me for half a year". That to me is what makes the Tywin/Tyrion relationship so engaging. A father hates his son for being exactly like him and uses his own self loathing against him. Anybody who's had issues with a parent can relate to this.

To me there is a lot more irony in Tyrion being the son who is most like Tywin but not being his biological son. It's entirely subjective whether or not the relationship becomes ruined but Genna's quote certainly doesn't become invalidated if Tyrion turns out not to be Tywin's biological child. I don't think that Tyrion is like Tywin because of biology I think that Tyrion is like Tywin because Tywin is the one who was around to raise him and Tyrion tried the hardest to be like him because he constantly wanted Tywin's approval.

The idea of Tywin freaking out because Genna played on his insecurities makes perfect sense to me. One of the great things to me about the AJT theory is what a truly awesome and longterm punishment it is for Tywin. If Tyrion is his son then he has to accept that it was having his child that killed Joanna in addition to the whole aspect of the gods teaching him "humility" for supposedly cursing him with a dwarf. If Tyrion isn't his son then he has to accept the fact that his wife was raped (IMO this is what most likely happened but acknowledge that it might have been a consensual affair) and dishonored in such a way that there was little Tywin could do about it at the time. I don't want to hijack the thread further but I think there are numerous reasons for why Tywin wouldn't have been able to retaliate over Joanna's rape right away.

Haleth · June 29, 2015

I can only wish you're right about Sansa re:pregnancy in book canon, but imo there's another very possible and very repulsive candidate in the Vale for fathering her child: Littlefinger himself. *jinx*

Ew! Ew! Get the bleach!

Edited June 29, 2015 by Haleth

BlackberryJam · June 29, 2015

I think having Sansa pregnant with an unwanted child would be great for her story. I have never thought "Sansa gets smarticle and plays game" is a good story. In fact, it's been a total yawner.

If Sansa turns up pregnant, several things could happen....several fascinating things.

1. For reasons of plot or things or stuff or whatever, she could sacrifice the child like Dany did, to save someone else. (Hi, Melisandre!)

2. If Ramsay dies she could leverage the child to hold the Bolton forces, although she has Waldafetus to contend with there.

3. She could be in the position, like her mother, of being expected to raise a child she doesn't love.

4. She could Lucretia Borgia it and swear that she is still a virgin while clearly showing, and arrange a marriage to someone else.

5. She could say the child is Tyrion's and validate that marriage, and then claim the Westerlands in the child's name.

All of those scenarios are more interesting than lemoncakes in the Vale.

Edited June 29, 2015 by BlackberryJam

SeanC · June 29, 2015

It could be, but somehow it doesn't convince me. Imo, if Sansa/Sandor was to be her "end game" or something crucial to her (romantic) storyline, they'd have done the casting accordingly. I think that Rory McCann is fabulous as The Hound, but I'm certain that they could have found a great actor in a younger age range -instead of aging Sandor, unless I'm mistaken- and of the "Bishounen with scars" type (as he's often represented) if it had been necessary.

I used to think that, but by this point it's clear that the writers don't feel the need for anywhere near the amount of buildup that exists in the novels, so I don't think its absence from the early seasons would be something they would regard as an issue, and by the time they get to any possible reunion, the actress will be an adult.

They didn't shy away from the Petyr/Sansa kiss and went for Sansa/Ramsay, which imo was wayyyy more traumatic/prone to raise outcry than even the most risqué book canon Sansa/Sandor interaction.

In the first case, you're clearly not supposed to like Littlefinger for kissing her, which is very different. Also true with Ramsay, but more to the point, Sophie was over 18 by the time they filmed that stuff. They'd have been filming the Sansa/Hound stuff when Sophie was 14/15 (and Rory McCann was visibly uncomfortable whenever he was asked about Sansa, for exactly that reason).

I can only wish you're right about Sansa re:pregnancy in book canon, but imo there's another very possible and very repulsive candidate in the Vale for fathering her child: Littlefinger himself. *jinx*

There's no indication of Sansa developing any romantic interest in him (quite the opposite), and GRRM has said he won't write POV rape (not that that makes much sense for Littlefinger's character either).

I definitely think that Sansa will have a child before the series is over. I really, really hope it isn't Ramsay's but that should most certainly be a possibility.

In an epilogue, maybe, but I can't see how that would ever fit into the series' main action.

Edited June 29, 2015 by SeanC

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