Season 6: Speculation

[ElizaD]

Update posted in the comments by one of the WOTW staff:

 

I just realized I left a phrase out of the descriptions, because I had to add everything in so quickly. Pretty much everything is there but I’d left out this bit because I didn’t think it was that significant when I was summarizing the casting breakdowns- only now I realize it is another clue.

Of the Legendary Fighter, it says, “He carries a hugely famous sword on his back.” I’d left out that last bit in my hurry.

Dayne wears Dawn on his back, it’s mentioned in the ToJ story. I was pretty sure that this was Arthur Dayne anyway, but that’s one more clue.

[nksarmi]

I'd guess that the "frightening northern lord" will be another figure to menace Sansa. Seems par for the course, for her storyline.

 

Despite my huge disillusionment with this season, I still think the North matters to this overall story and that putting Sansa in the North means keeping her in the North.  If by some sweet mercy, Ramsey does not hunt her and Theon down immediately and punish them..... I am hoping that Sansa and Theon do meet up with Brie and Pod and she asks them to take her to the nearest Northern Lord they can get to (which looks like its going to be the Umbers).  Then the frightening Northern Lord can be about intimidating Theon because of his betrayal and then Sansa's plot for season six will be trying to figure out which of her father's/brother's former bannermen she can trust and who she can send for help finding Rickon and Bran. 

 

I could actually enjoy watching Sansa, Brie, and Pod (and maybe later Davos) travelling across the North trying to determine who they can trust and where Rickon might be if it will ultimately mean a Northern revolt to get the Boltons out of Winterfell by the end of season six.  How I would love it if Sansa saved herself and her family name by politicking and forming alliance in the North rather than having LF come save her. And I will forgive so much if Sansa brokers her own marriage (maybe to mend fences with the Kastarks) - to be completed after she becomes a widow of course - and gathers* an army to oust the Boltons and then tells LF to shove it when he shows up with shoulders from the Vale. 

 

* I don't need Sansa to become some badass fighter, but I wouldn't mind them letting her follow the Dany model and become a warrior queen who can inspire men to battle while trusting her "generals" to make the military decisions so to speak.  And I dream of Sansa being reunited with Arya's wolf as a semi-Stark reunion.

Edited June 20, 2015 by nksarmi

[AshleyN]

There are two Northern Lords being cast, aren't there? One of them definitely sounds like an Umber, but the other (described as "ruthless and calculating") could go either way I think. It could be a re-imagined Manderly type, scheming to put the Starks back in power, or a Karstark - out for himself, with no love left for the Starks. I'd like to think it's the former, just because it's long past time to shift the balance of Northern lords back toward the Stark loyalists after four seasons without a single one, but that doesn't really jive with how they've done things so far so I dunno.

Edited June 20, 2015 by AshleyN

[benteen]

Update posted in the comments by one of the WOTW staff:

 

Most likely Dayne.  But as I recall, doesn't Randyll Tarly also carry his Valaryian greatsword Heartsbane on his back as well?

[MadMouse]

Remember that ruthless and calculating are very vague descriptions. I do lean towards a Manderly or Karstark myself but you could say the same about Howland Reed. Bolton fears him, what his men did to the Ironborn at the Moat could be considered ruthless and if he drops the R+L bomb at the right moment it's calculating.

[The Mormegil]

Most likely Dayne.  But as I recall, doesn't Randyll Tarly also carry his Valaryian greatsword Heartsbane on his back as well?

 

Tarly was in the previous casting call (well a description that fitted far better than this one was), we don't need two Randylls  

[Dev F]

I didn't say it would be a deliberate prank, and you don't know that the character on the show would be a "nothing role".

 

You said it might be an epic troll, "inadvertantly or not," so it seemed appropriate to cover both the "inadvertantly" and the "not."

 

Anyways, I was mostly trying to point out that I think book readers maybe shouldn't get themselves too hyped up for something that we don't even know for sure is happening (and I'm not even really talking about here, but some other ASOIAF sites I've seen). Like I said, I also thought Arthur Dayne when I read that casting notice and I still think he's the most likely candidate, but there's a bit of a tendency in this fandom to turn speculation into fact without any actual proof, and while this could just be me trying to avoid setting myself up for disappointment (because holy shit would I ever love to see the Tower of Joy next season) I'm not quite ready to take it as a given that that's what we're getting.

 

But I think there's a difference between being being careful about jumping to conclusions and entertaining some wildly improbable convergence of circumstances, by which the producers might actually be casting a minor and much-disliked character from the books whom they deliberately omitted last season, rewriting that character so that his description sounds exactly like Arthur Dayne, and having him show up not in his original plot-heavy capacity in the books but in the same sort of brief action cameo that fans would expect to see from the Sword of the Morning.

 

By all means, let's be cautious about our assumptions. But that doesn't mean making up elaborate explanations for why we can't possibly know something that we totally do know, because it's completely obvious.

Edited June 21, 2015 by Dev F

[Lady S.]

Also, let's keep in mind that these casting sides are just that, WoTW finds them but they're meant for casting people. They're not official clues dropped by tptb to play games with us.

[Oscirus]

This should be fun:

 

- Robert Strong gets set loose on Dorne which should culminate in a Robert Strong- Aero fight. After that either Doran escapes or more likely, dies.

-Arya eventually regains her site and by the end of the season becomes a nobody by abandoning her death list and needle.

- Insane spec- Needle is revealed to be the light bringer and it winds up in the hands of the prophesized prince once Arya abandons it.

-Ramsey will try to get back Sansa and fail spectacularly which causes him to go on a flaying spree.

-Roose gets tired of Ramsey's insanity and finally kills him. His victory is short lived as Littlefinger arrives and takes  Winterfell for himself.

- On the way to the wall, Sansa runs into Davos who tells her of Jon's fate. They then decide to go find her other brothers.

-The tyrell-Lannister false alliance continues as Cersei gets Loras and Marge out of jail. It will again fail spectacularly.

- No idea about the iron born/old town stuff just yet.

-Tyrion does a better job at Mereen then Dany which should start with Dany getting jealous and a situation paralleling the mad king/ tywin starts to happen.

Dany finally begins her march on winterfell.

 

[areca]

My crazy wild speculation about Jon Snow is that by uttering the word Olly, Jon is going to warg into Olly.

That was my immediate thought too to be honest.  There was something...significant about it that wasn't correct for the situation.  Could be Kit's acting, but I dunno.  It was slightly odd.

[FemmyV]

If by some sweet mercy, Ramsey does not hunt her and Theon down immediately and punish them..... I am hoping that Sansa and Theon do meet up with Brie and Pod

I expect Ramsey to go on the hunt immediately. The only question is, who will he run into first?

1. Stannis, or what's left of him

2. Theon & Sansa

3. Brie & Pod

[Haleth]

If we do get to see the ToJ and a fight between Ned and Dayne, do you think Sean Bean will be back or would they cast a younger actor who looks like Bean?

[ElizaD]

Bean has said he'd like to return and I hope it happens. If Ned was played by an unknown twentysomething, the scene wouldn't be as epic and emotional as it has the potential to be.

[AshleyN]

I have to think that for such a pivotal scene they'd choose to bring Sean Bean back. It's not like the Cersei flashback where she was actually a child at the time -- going by Bean's age during Season 1, show Ned would have at least been in his thirties when the rebellion happened. Speaking only for myself, I'd gladly suspend my disbelief regarding the age thing rather than watch a recast we're only ever going to see for five minutes.

[nksarmi]

I have to admit that part of what hurt so much when Ned died on the show was how much I liked Sean Bean in the role.  If we are going to get the big reveal, I hope they bring him back for it.

[Maximum Taco]

Most likely Dayne.  But as I recall, doesn't Randyll Tarly also carry his Valaryian greatsword Heartsbane on his back as well?

 

Any greatsword necessitates being worn on the back, unless you are Gregor Clegane sized. If a normal sized person wore a greatsword on their hip it would drag against the floor, and likely would impede their movement considerably.

 

I believe in the books Ned wears Ice on his back and I think (but am not sure) that Jon Snow wears Longclaw on his back as well, because even though Longclaw is a bastard sword, not a greatsword, it is longer than Jon is used to and Jon is like 14, and likely shorter than a grown man.

Edited June 22, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[Avaleigh]

Any greatsword necessitates being worn on the back, unless you are Gregor Clegane sized. If a normal sized person wore a greatsword on their hip it would drag against the floor, and likely would impede their movement considerably.

 

I believe in the books Ned wears Ice on his back and I think (but am not sure) that Jon Snow wears Longclaw on his back as well, because even though Longclaw is a bastard sword, not a greatsword, it is longer than Jon is used to and Jon is like 14, and likely shorter than a grown man.

I thought Valyrian blades were supposed to be super light and that Ice was just abnormally large and therefore not as easy to carry. 

 

Dawn is different, I know, since it isn't Valyrian but for some reason I was under the impression that Valyrian blades were lighter than average steel. 

[OakGoblinFly]

I'm beginning to think Kit really is NOT coming back.  If so, I think Jon will be resurrected, or warg, but will no longer be played by Kit.  He could become anything or anyone really, from a White Walker, to a wolf, to a human body of any type, whether warging into it, or somehow being resurrected as AA. 

 

 

I think if Jon comes back in any form (and I do) he will be played by Kit --- to have another actor "become" Jon is too confusing.  I also think it is a possibility that Kit may be benched for season six much the way Bran was benched for season five (though I think that would be monumentally bad writing/story telling).

 

At some point D&D and Martin need to give the audience a little bit of hope ---- something that has been sorely lacking on the television show.

[Maximum Taco]

I thought Valyrian blades were supposed to be super light and that Ice was just abnormally large and therefore not as easy to carry. 

 

Dawn is different, I know, since it isn't Valyrian but for some reason I was under the impression that Valyrian blades were lighter than average steel. 

 

It's not an issue of weight, it's an issue of length.

 

Unless you are abnormally tall, a greatsword worn at the hip (or for a short man, or adolescent a bastard sword worn at the hip), would be too long and would drag on the floor.

Edited June 22, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[BlackberryJam]

It's not an issue of weight, it's an issue of length.

 

I am a 13 year old boy because this entire length discussion has made me giggle. I never imagined that Jon had to worry about length and I always thought Ned's sword would be more girthy than lengthy.

[Lady S.]

I have to think that for such a pivotal scene they'd choose to bring Sean Bean back. It's not like the Cersei flashback where she was actually a child at the time -- going by Bean's age during Season 1, show Ned would have at least been in his thirties when the rebellion happened. Speaking only for myself, I'd gladly suspend my disbelief regarding the age thing rather than watch a recast we're only ever going to see for five minutes.

I don't think we can really go by the actors' ages for the characters, even discounting babyfaced Gregor 3.0. Robert still talks about the Rebellion as if they were young men at the time, and if they weren't it raises questions about why he wasn't already married to Lyanna or Brandon to Cat. Book Ned is actually described as looking old for his age because his beard had grayed, which wasn't even true of Bean's Ned's beard, as I recall it.

 

I am a 13 year old boy because this entire length discussion has made me giggle. I never imagined that Jon had to worry about length and I always thought Ned's sword would be more girthy than lengthy.

There's a tumblr post you might be interested in estimating all the ASoIaF men's dick sizes, but I can't find it now.

[oliverwendell]

Does anyone know if Game of Thrones will have a panel at Comic Con this year?  I know they've gone every year previous, but I can't find any announcement or schedule that has them there this year.

[scarynikki12]

The programming schedule gets posted two weeks out. A few things will leak, such as the Warner Bros shows, but the vast majority will be announced officially by the con. The two week period starts Thursday this week so we'll see those postings day by day through Sunday. I will be shocked beyond belief if GOT isn't back this year, most likely on Friday like previous years.

[BlackberryJam]

I don't think we can really go by the actors' ages for the characters, even discounting babyfaced Gregor 3.0. Robert still talks about the Rebellion as if they were young men at the time, and if they weren't it raises questions about why he wasn't already married to Lyanna or Brandon to Cat. Book Ned is actually described as looking old for his age because his beard had grayed, which wasn't even true of Bean's Ned's beard, as I recall it.

 

There's a tumblr post you might be interested in estimating all the ASoIaF men's dick sizes, but I can't find it now.

 

The Penis Headcanons. Seen it, disagreed with many of them and made the arguments. ;)

[morgankobi]

There's a tumblr post you might be interested in estimating all the ASoIaF men's dick sizes, but I can't find it now.

 

This seems like a really good time to do a search history clearing... 

:)

[BlackberryJam]

Here is the original Penis Head Canons List.

 

http://kittenbalerion.tumblr.com/post/105133227567/the-asoiaf-penis-headcanon-masterlist-if-you

 

I think the Blackfish has a bigger dick that this list ...because I just DO. I have a few other issues here and there. Walder is pubic bald and his left nut hangs way way lower than the right. Jaime's cock is magnificent. He is half a god, isn't he?

 

Ned has a small but adequate peen.

Edited June 23, 2015 by BlackberryJam

[Avaleigh]

I disagree with a lot of those. Some funny ones though like Bloodraven. Also, given the recent discussion of Cat and Jon and how Cat would get annoyed when Jon would best Robb at anything, I couldn't help but laugh at Jon (and most everyone else) coming out on top over Robb in this list as well.

[polyhymnia]

I'm with those who don't believe Jon is dead for one simple reason.  Recall back before the show aired season 1, D&D stated that when they met with GRRM to discuss bringing the series to television, he asked them one question - "who are Jon Snow's parents?" or something along those lines.  They answered correctly and the rest, as they say, is history.  If that was the one question GRRM thought these two needed to have enough insight and appreciation for the books to know the answer, then that tells us just how central Jon Snow is to the entire saga.  No way is he dead.

Unless they said "Wylla and Ned."  Because then he is just Ned's bastard with no special snowflake (har) status.

 

This is the only thing that my spouse (unsullied) and I have been arguing about - he thinks Jon is really and truly dead, I think probably not because I don't think it makes sense from a writing/plotting standpoint.

 

I like the idea of Jaime, Bronn, Trystane, and dead Myrcella going to Meeren or Braavos v. Kings Landing.  I would LOVE to see Doran do something significant and clever in Season 6 but am not holding my breath.

 

Most of the casting announcements are intriguing - happy about more Northerners that aren't Boltons.  Happy about possible Arthur Dayne.  Meh on Iron Born but they might translate better in the show than in the book.

Edited June 23, 2015 by polyhymnia

[Maximum Taco]

Unless they said "Wylla and Ned."  Because then he is just Ned's bastard with no special snowflake (har) status.

 

HA!

 

That would be hilarious, if they were the ones who figured out that R + L = J is a bunch of bullshit and GRRM deliberately planted clues to send everyone down the wrong path. I honestly would be kind of impressed if George/D&D could explain it in a way that made sense.

 

Or what if they said Ashara and Brandon?? Now Jon's still a bastard, but not Ned's.

Edited June 23, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[Happy Harpy]

I like the idea of Jaime, Bronn, Trystane, and dead Myrcella going to Meeren or Braavos v. Kings Landing. 

They're on a boat, the Ironborns are coming...what if they were intercepted by Euron instead?

Jaime and Bronn's excellent adventure in those other Houses, 2015-2016.

[Lady S.]

HA!

 

That would be hilarious, if they were the ones who figured out that R + L = J is a bunch of bullshit and GRRM deliberately planted clues to send everyone down the wrong path. I honestly would be kind of impressed if George/D&D could explain it in a way that made sense.

 

Or what if they said Ashara and Brandon?? Now Jon's still a bastard, but not Ned's.

Was Ashara and Brandon a theory before ADwD? D&D would have met Evil Santa before he finished that behemoth. (Also, seven hells, just thinking of Ser Arthur already had my irrational anti-Ashara feelings flaring up. That Elizabeth Taylor-looking cipher should never pollute show canon imo.)

 

 

This seems like a really good time to do a search history clearing... 

:)

I'm bookmarking it under a codename tbh. My fave is Mace Tyrell's entry.

 

Does anyone know if Game of Thrones will have a panel at Comic Con this year?  I know they've gone every year previous, but I can't find any announcement or schedule that has them there this year.

Here. (If Kitten were really done with the show, he'd probably be there.)

[Hecate7]

HA!

 

That would be hilarious, if they were the ones who figured out that R + L = J is a bunch of bullshit and GRRM deliberately planted clues to send everyone down the wrong path. I honestly would be kind of impressed if George/D&D could explain it in a way that made sense.

 

Or what if they said Ashara and Brandon?? Now Jon's still a bastard, but not Ned's.

 

That would be appallingly bad writing. All that "promise me, Ned," has to add up to something, and really there's no reason to keep it a secret if Jon Snow is Ashara and Brandon's child, especially from Cat.

[Maximum Taco]

That would be appallingly bad writing. All that "promise me, Ned," has to add up to something, and really there's no reason to keep it a secret if Jon Snow is Ashara and Brandon's child, especially from Cat.

 

I agree, there is no reason.

 

Which is why if they could guess that, and also if GRRM could make it work with either Ned/Wylla or Ashara/Brandon I'd be very impressed.

 

Really everyone thinks R + L = J. I just think it'd be nice if he managed to fool us all.

Edited June 23, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[nksarmi]

I agree, there is no reason.

 

Which is why if they could guess that, and also if GRRM could make it work with either Ned/Wylla or Ashara/Brandon I'd be very impressed.

 

Really everyone thinks R + L = J. I just think it'd be nice if he managed to fool us all.

But as any fan of Arrow can tell you, fooling us all isn't sufficient if there is no basis for the fooling. He could write the story any way he wants to now, but that doesn't mean it would be good writing.

 

Promise me Ned must mean something.  Ned's over protectiveness of Jon Snow's mother must also mean something.  So must all the damn hints that it's not Ned's way to father a bastard child. When you lay the ground work for something, you have to follow through or it's bad writing.  A bait and switch has to be backed up with good story telling or it sucks.  GRRM might be doing a bait and switch with Dany and Aegon (if he's real) in regards to who sits the Iron Throne.  There might be a bait and switch for who the YMB(Q) is in Cersei's prophesy (or the little brother for that matter). 

 

But at this point, I see no way that Jon isn't Lyanna's child and therefore, I expect Rhaegor is the father.

I agree, there is no reason.

 

Which is why if they could guess that, and also if GRRM could make it work with either Ned/Wylla or Ashara/Brandon I'd be very impressed.

 

Really everyone thinks R + L = J. I just think it'd be nice if he managed to fool us all.

But as any fan of Arrow can tell you, fooling us all isn't sufficient if there is no basis for the fooling. He could write the story any way he wants to now, but that doesn't mean it would be good writing.

 

Promise me Ned must mean something.  Ned's over protectiveness of Jon Snow's mother must also mean something.  So must all the damn hints that it's not Ned's way to father a bastard child. When you lay the ground work for something, you have to follow through or it's bad writing.  A bait and switch has to be backed up with good story telling or it sucks.  GRRM might be doing a bait and switch with Dany and Aegon (if he's real) in regards to who sits the Iron Throne.  There might be a bait and switch for who the YMB(Q) is in Cersei's prophesy (or the little brother for that matter). 

 

But at this point, I see no way that Jon isn't Lyanna's child and therefore, I expect Rhaegor is the father.

[Maximum Taco]

But as any fan of Arrow can tell you, fooling us all isn't sufficient if there is no basis for the fooling. He could write the story any way he wants to now, but that doesn't mean it would be good writing.

 

Promise me Ned must mean something.  Ned's over protectiveness of Jon Snow's mother must also mean something.  So must all the damn hints that it's not Ned's way to father a bastard child. When you lay the ground work for something, you have to follow through or it's bad writing.  A bait and switch has to be backed up with good story telling or it sucks.  GRRM might be doing a bait and switch with Dany and Aegon (if he's real) in regards to who sits the Iron Throne.  There might be a bait and switch for who the YMB(Q) is in Cersei's prophesy (or the little brother for that matter). 

 

But at this point, I see no way that Jon isn't Lyanna's child and therefore, I expect Rhaegor is the father.

 

That's the point though.

 

The fact that you can't see it as any other way is what makes it a great deception. If he just changes the story and it doesn't fit with what happened previously that's bad writing, but if he can explain all the clues he left before and still trick everybody? That would be fantastic.

 

Personally I don't see it working out any other way either, but I'd be pleased if it did, and it made sense. I'd be be very upset if it didn't make any sense though.

Edited June 24, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[Hecate7]

Fooling the audience for the sake of fooling them is boring. Anticlimactic writing is very boring, and I don't think Martin would make that mistake.

Edited June 24, 2015 by Hecate7

[Happy Harpy]

Jon's mother reveal is going to be anticlimatic anyway, imo. Because of two factors:

1) the time it took (will take?) for the truth to be revealed, no matter on what media

2) the development of internet boards during the publication of ASOIAF and thousands of brains working together, analyzing every detail.

 

If GRRM had been able to complete the series at the rhythm he initially planned (no criticism here, he's not a robot! Just stating a fact)  most readers would be still beginning to elaborate theories and set the pieces together when WHAM! they'd have gotten the reveal. If R+L=J is true, I'm not sure that it would have been such a widespread theory if people couldn't share their ideas so easily, so fast, thanks to the web. And no matter what the truth is in the end, the red herrings would have been quickly classified only as this, and not as sustainable alternate theories as they became with time, discussion -and incidentally, initial good plotting from GRRM.

 

Nevertheless, for me, being anticlimatic isn't always synonymous with "unsatisfying". R+L=J would be anticlimatic because after all those years the reveal in itself wouldn't be as exciting or dramatic as it could have been earlier, since it became the "mainstream" theory in the meanwhile. But it would be satisfying for me because it makes the most sense, narratively. Any of the other theories would be anticlimatic in the sense that they would be disappointing and less exciting outcomes than anticipated in universe, since the possibility that Ashara or Wylla is Jon's mother was voiced and held true by some characters (whereas IIRC no mention of Lyanna). It would be unsatisfying for me, narratively speaking.

 

I think that Rhaegar and Lyanna being reintroduced in S5 means that R+L=J is true, and I've seen some people regret/complain that it wasn't foreshadowed enough in the earlier seasons. But in the perspective of what I said above I think that D&D were right not to: it will be more climatic for the Unsullied imo, and after all as showrunners, those viewers are their priority.

Between the R+L mentions and the Arthur Dayne-like casting call for S6, I think that Jon's parentage will be solved this season.

Edited June 24, 2015 by Happy Harpy

[nksarmi]

That's the point though.

 

The fact that you can't see it as any other way is what makes it a great deception. If he just changes the story and it doesn't fit with what happened previously that's bad writing, but if he can explain all the clues he left before and still trick everybody? That would be fantastic.

 

Personally I don't see it working out any other way either, but I'd be pleased if it did, and it made sense. I'd be be very upset if it didn't make any sense though.

Yea if he had it setup all along and the clues were red herrings, then sure, that would be impressive.  But in my opinion, he has established several things he must deal with....

 

1. Ned made death bed promise to Lyanna and it was in is mind in his dying days.  To me, that has to be something huge, not "don't let Mary Sue have my pony after I die - promise me Ned!"

 

2. I think Lyanna for sure gave birth and Ned knew it.  If she didn't give birth to Jon, then GRRM would have to account for who that child is or was and I would think we would have had some clues regarding some cousin or ward or something by now if she gave birth to someone other than Jon (and if the baby died, I would think that might have just become common knowledge and would have just played into the kidnapping and rape story more. There is just no need to keep the existence of a dead baby a secret when the mother and father are dead as well).

 

3. If Lyanna gave birth AND that child is Jon - isn't Rhaegor the only option we have for the father?

 

At some point earlier in the story, I think GRRM could have diverged on a different road.  But since we are coming up on book 6, I don't see the story going any other way.  Also, they have been hitting the anvils pretty hard this season on the show with....Aemon's lamenting that Dany is a Targ all alone in the world....Stannis telling us AGAIN that it isn't like Ned to father a bastard child....and the very heavy looks from the Night King toward Jon at Hardhome.  Even the unsullied are noting that Mel strangely arrived back at the Wall just as Jon was murdered. 

 

I just don't see how GRRM could write it any other way at this point and have it all make sense.  I can believe that the PTTP and AA reborn prophesies are complex and possible refer to three people at once (the dragon has three heads).  I can believe that any of a number of people could sit the Iron Throne when we are done (from Dany to Tyrion to Aegon).  I can believe any number of arguments regarding the YMB(Q) or little brother.

 

But I don't see any other possibilities regarding Jon which is why it pissed me off so much that Kit and the show runners were hammering the Jon is dead nail so hard.  I hate being trolled lol.

[shortpplfedup]

I've been thinking a bit about Jon's death, in the context of how he could possibly be resurrected somehow but also still be dead and not a wight. And that led me to Coldhands. Especially since that character was not included in the show, and we know that D&D tend to remove characters they think may have too many similarities with main characters, or foreshadow main character events too obviously. So...what if Jon becomes like Coldhands somehow? There's also Coldhands' plot re: killing NW mutineers, that could become part of Jon's story.

[Haleth]

What if Benjen broke his vows and he is Jon's father.  o_O  (Ha!  Kidding.)

 

I've thought about that too, shortppl.  He could end up king north of the Wall while Dany is queen of the south.

Edited June 24, 2015 by Haleth

[Funzlerks]

I don't see Ned keeping the truth secret from Catelyn unless the kid was half-Targaryan and his identity was therefor a matter of life and death. Any other outcome turns Ned into a stupid douche who sacrificed Catelyn and Jon's happiness for some inconsequential reason. And that isn't Ned Stark.

[shortpplfedup]

What if Benjen broke his vows and he is Jon's father. o_O (Ha! Kidding.)

I've thought about that too, shortppl. He could end up king north of the Wall while Dany is queen of the south.

I don't think there will be a Wall anymore by the end of this story.

[Funzlerks]

Though, baby switching and fake Starks are fairly recurrent motifs. I always wondered if Ned did have a bastard during the war and switched it with Jon. But, on the show there is no baby switching or fake Aryas. There was the fake out with Bran and Rickon.

Realistically, though, that timeline around the Tower of Joy is so damn complicated already. I hope there is an episode next season called the Tower of Joy. Please, please, please. I'll take another season of "Who is the most beautiful woman in the world?" I will take Ramsay chewing all of Winterfell up with his acting. No casting for Lyanna or Rhaegar yet?

[Avaleigh]

Thinking for a moment on wonky travel and timelines when it comes to this show, I wonder who will get to King's Landing first--Mace who's coming from Braavos but hasn't yet departed or Jaime from Dorne who's already on his way? I'm just curious about whether or not either man will be in attendance for any of the trials. Will the presence of either man add anything to the tension of the trials or is it better for them to come back after they've already taken place? 

[ElizaD]

Jaime, Bronn and Trystane arriving in KL feels like an episode 1 event. I imagine they'd want to show how Jaime/Cersei react to Myrcella's death and how their relationship might start changing, and then there's Trystane, who must have been sent to KL for a reason. If they arrive too late, the show doesn't get the same opportunity for character interactions and drama. Mace can be forgotten until it's time for him to die.

[SeanC]

We haven't gotten any indication that Mace is returning to KL yet. It's possible that the Lannister delegation in Braavos is a more significant plot point in Arya's TWOW storyline, which would necessitate him staying. Though with Stannis dead, the Iron Bank has no "Plan B" anymore in the show.

[benteen]

The Iron Bank's investment in Stannis on the show is looking dumber and dumber all the time.  It made sense in the books when Cersei refused to pay the Crown's debt to them (yet another thing D&D changed on the show to whitewash her) but on the show it didn't.

Edited June 25, 2015 by benteen

[marys1000]

I am a small fish when it comes to digging deep in GofT so forgive this question if necessary.

 

Up to now spoiler policies have seemed to mostly revolve around book vs. show.  As in book readers don't spoil non book readers.

But now we are mostly out of the books and I see some speculation on casting of this or that and what it means.

 

What happens if there are technical (if minor) spoilers based on people watching filming (as in tourists) or social media?   Is there a thread for that?  Chances are these wouldn't amount to much other than more focused speculation but some people might not want to know.  (Me I love being spoiled:)

[gemmalogical]

I always wondered if Ned did have a bastard during the war and switched it with Jon.

 

There is that seemingly random story that Davos hears when he's making his way to White Harbor - that Ned supposedly impregnated a woman in The Sisters while he was making his own way back North at the start of the rebellion. That child was also called Jon Snow, IIRC.

[Danny Franks]

I agree, there is no reason.

 

Which is why if they could guess that, and also if GRRM could make it work with either Ned/Wylla or Ashara/Brandon I'd be very impressed.

 

Really everyone thinks R + L = J. I just think it'd be nice if he managed to fool us all.

 

See, the thing is, when GRRM started writing this series, twenty or so years ago, it was just one of a plethora of fantasy novels that readers could pick up and enjoy. Any subtle references to deeper secrets and obscure truths were not expected to be endlessly studied, analysed and dissected by a legion of passionate fans. The internet didn't even exist.

 

References to Jon's possible parentage were hidden in the text, behind flowery prose (sorry, pun not intended) and vague prophecy. Individual readers might pick up on things and wonder, they might even reread and try to nail down all the hints and clues, and figure out for themselves that there's a bigger secret, hidden underneath it all. But it wasn't something GRRM would have ever expected to become such a big deal, because I doubt he ever dreamed that the books would become this cultural phenomenon.

 

R+L=J is not the most obvious answer, or at least it wasn't when the books were published. It has become that because people have spent the best part of two decades obsessing over it. So I don't see GRRM 'proving us wrong' as a good thing, because readers figuring it out in the first place isn't a bad thing.

 

I think the image GRRM has cultivated as a master of the unexpected does neither him nor fans of the franchise any favours. I think that's where the desire to second guess everything comes from. So to me, there's little doubt that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, because that is the storyline that makes most sense from a fantasy narrative perspective. Defying sense just to say 'ha! I fooled you' seems like an unnecessary diversion to me.