Season 6: Speculation

[Oscirus]

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He's already said to hell with the NW and was planning to head off to a beach until Sansa dragged him into the Stark family quarrel.  Winterfell is his home.  Obviously he's going to be involved in the fight with the White Walkers, but he's done with the Wall.

I think he's over it at the moment because he got betrayed, but once he sees that wall gets breached, I believe he'll see it as his duty to defend the wall against such threat from here on out.

[SeanC]

11 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Good point, although the show didn't sugarcoat his murder of Tywin (and eliminated the added provocation from the books of Tyrion learning that Tywin told Jaime to lie about Tysha being a prostitute).

Did Tywin's death really need to be sugarcoated?  Tywin got pretty much exactly what he deserved.  The handling of Shae, where they had her draw a blade and lunge at him when it was far from clear based on his demeanor that he was threatening her, is a more obvious instance of the writers trying to make Tyrion look more justified in that particular episode; whereas in the book he just straight-up killed her while she was pleading (albeit probably disingenuously).

11 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

I think he's over it at the moment because he got betrayed, but once he sees that wall gets breached, I believe he'll see it as his duty to defend the wall against such threat from here on out.

When the Wall gets breached, there won't be anything there to defend from that point onward, I expect.  It'll be about defending Winterfell.

[Funzlerks]

I think the wall will have different importance at the end.  Maybe it won't be there at all.  Or if Jon is some sort of ruler below, he will know to reestablish the importance of The Night's Watch as every house's duty.  There will be understanding of why it was built in the first place and why the Starks had to be at Winterfell or whatever.

There are a lot of characters who are badasses who have done bad things or been on the wrong side who could be The Lord Commander at the end of the series.  Ideal situation for Loras?  Jaime?  Theon?  

Edited May 19, 2016 by Funzlerks

[Eyes High]

13 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Did Tywin's death really need to be sugarcoated?  Tywin got pretty much exactly what he deserved.

Well, sure, but it was still straight-up murder, unlike with what they did with Shae, where if it wasn't straight self-defence it was a lot greyer than it was in the books.

8 minutes ago, Funzlerks said:

There are a lot of characters who are badasses who have done bad things or been on the wrong side who could be The Lord Commander at the end of the series.  Ideal situation for Loras?  Jaime?  Theon?  

I think all three of them will be dead by the end of the series.

[Alapaki]

17 minutes ago, SeanC said:

When the Wall gets breached, there won't be anything there to defend from that point onward, I expect.  It'll be about defending Winterfell.

Agreed.  It's probably not a matter of abandoning the Wall, as the Wall is most likely falling.  Jon's loyalty will be to the North.

[SeanC]

I think the Night's Watch will be a thing of the past when this series ends, one way or another.

Because really, when you look at it, the Watch was a miserable failure at its original purpose.  It literally forgot how to fight the White Walkers, which was their whole raison d'etre, and conditions there are so shitty that its membership can't be maintained if there's no constant warfare resulting in prisoners being sent there.

[Alapaki]

2 minutes ago, SeanC said:

I think the Night's Watch will be a thing of the past when this series ends, one way or another.

Because really, when you look at it, the Watch was a miserable failure at its original purpose.  It literally forgot how to fight the White Walkers, which was their whole raison d'etre, and conditions there are so shitty that its membership can't be maintained if there's no constant warfare resulting in prisoners being sent there.

Yep.  It was a skeleton force before Thorne and the other mutineers were either killed fighting the wildlings who returned to rescue Davos & Co. or hanged by Jon.  The only hope of repulsing the Others is the Wall.  If the Wall comes down, the NW are useless.

Frankly, the main purpose of the NW up to now, it seems, is to give Kings and Warden's a loophole to avoid carrying out unpopular (but ostensibly warranted) executions by offering the "mercy" of "taking the black".

[SeanC]

Their main purpose pretty much since inception seems to have been, in practice, fighting the Wildlings.  Which will be irrelevant going forward as the Wildlings barely exist anymore (the global population has to be under 10,000) and are well on their way to becoming kneelers anyway.

[Chris24601]

4 hours ago, Oscirus said:

In such an apocalypse, it's one thing to have a leader in place to set up who hunts and who gathers and what not. Quite another to  give people a bunch of pointless jobs just because that's how the old government was.

Ah, I see where the confusion is coming from.

You're thinking of the description of an apocalypse as having only a few hundred survivors. Yes, in such a case there would be little need for much of a formal chain of command.

But that's also completely unrealistic because Westeros has a population in the tens of millions (40-75 million has been estimated). Even if the cataclysm reached a 99% fatality rate that would still leave HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of survivors.

I'm not even talking about something THAT severe. A complete societal collapse would be certain at a 40% to 50% population loss and anything over 70% would be a cultural extinction level event.

Either would still leave a population in the 10-20 million range. Winterfell alone would probably have a population in the tens of thousands under its sway (the castle proper and surrounding communities that would sprout up because of the protection offered by the forces under Jon's command after the final battles are over). Throw in other neighboring regions looking for stability and support and it could easily swell into the hundreds of thousands.

That's a population level that simply cannot be governed without a formalized system of government and chain of command such as a small council. Trying to manage that many people without one would be insanity.

4 hours ago, Oscirus said:

I think he's over it at the moment because he got betrayed, but once he sees that wall gets breached, I believe he'll see it as his duty to defend the wall against such threat from here on out.

But to presume that Jon would go back to the Wall presumes that there will still BE a Wall to go back to or even the need to rebuild it in the first place. If the Others are defeated permanently then there's no need for a Night's Watch any longer. Their purpose would be fulfilled all the Night's Watch survivors can go on to other things. In which case Jon will just have a head start on them.

[FemmyV]

4 hours ago, Oscirus said:

I doubt they'd have Sansa apologize to Tyrion, that would be stupid on so many levels and it would needlessly piss off a lot of audience members.

Stupid to apologize for leaving him holding the bag, re: Joffrey's death? Disagree. It'd be common decency. One might even hope she would, when it was safe for her, clear Tyrion's name in the poisoning.

[Conan Troutman]

5 hours ago, Eyes High said:

I'm kind of wondering what will come of Book Tyrion's thirst for revenge, since it's absent in the show so far. Will TV Tyrion have some sort of psychotic break at some point? Or will Book Tyrion's desire for revenge come to nothing, if Cersei and the other members of House Lannister die before he gets back to Westeros?

I think they're skipping that whole angle. He's not even mad at Jaime in the show. Whether that's a smart choice or not, you can really only tell with certainty once both the show and the books are done. 

[Eyes High]

41 minutes ago, FemmyV said:

Stupid to apologize for leaving him holding the bag, re: Joffrey's death? Disagree. It'd be common decency. One might even hope she would, when it was safe for her, clear Tyrion's name in the poisoning.

Was Sansa supposed to stay in KL to be tortured or more likely discreetly murdered on Cersei's orders for a guy she was forced to marry in the first place whose family murdered her own? Even if they had had a marriage based on a mutual love match and she had owed Tyrion the kind of loyalty one might expect from that sort of relationship, I'm pretty sure there's no moral requirement that one sacrifice one's own life for one's spouse. Also, the last thing Tyrion would want--and the last thing he needs, given his tendency towards self-pity--is having Sansa's torture and/or death on his conscience along with everything else. With that said, Book Tyrion seemed pretty salty that Sansa ditched out on him and possibly helped frame him for murder. TV Tyrion doesn't seem all that fussed about it, though, probably because he doesn't believe that Sansa was involved in Joffrey's murder.

I'm not saying that TV Sansa should apologize to Tyrion for anything, since I don't consider that she wronged him in any way (and neither does TV Tyrion, judging from his lack of rancour towards her), only speculating as to whether or not she will as part of her apparent apology tour.

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 I think they're skipping that whole angle. He's not even mad at Jaime in the show. Whether that's a smart choice or not, you can really only tell with certainty once both the show and the books are done. 

TV Jaime's still mad at him in the show, albeit for different reasons.

Edited May 19, 2016 by Eyes High

[SeanC]

3 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

TV Jaime's still mad at him in the show, albeit for different reasons.

That's pretty much the reverse of the books.

[AuntieMame]

On 5/18/2016 at 9:27 AM, Chris24601 said:

I KNOW, right?

On their own they're just cripples, bastards and broken things who've been beaten down by the world. But put them together...

Sansa has no armies or fighting skills and as a woman she is not seen as a leader in her own right, but she has endured court intrigues and politics via the armor of courtesy and perseverance. Her political savvy and ability to encourage were on full display in both her ability to recognize that Jon needs to be the leader if the North is to be rallied and in convincing Jon that it is something they MUST do. What better Queen could you ask for?

Davos isn't a good fighter and is a natural follower, but he also astoundingly loyal to those he believes in, knows how to read people, understands what it takes to be a good leader and isn't afraid to tell his Lord when he's heading down the wrong path. All he's lacked is the right leader to follow. You could not find a better Hand for a good king than that.

Bran is a cripple who will never be strong in the way the world values the term. But he can see the past and potentially the future as well (as Merlin was reputed to be able to do) and control and see through the eyes of beasts... power that is real in a way the Faith of the Seven is not and does not seem to require blood sacrifice to enact as it does for the Red God. I swear by the Old Gods that you're not going to find a better religious leader in the Seven Kingdoms than that.

Sam is out of shape and a lover of books in a world that acknowledges only strength of arms. Yet when faced with supernatural evil when innocent lives were in danger he didn't back down and having the right knowledge at the right time is necessary if a king is to make good decisions. Even without the chains, Sam has always been Jon's Maester.

Arya refuses to behave like a lady and is basically a broken child soldier in the process of being indoctrinated into an identity destroying cult. But she's also learned how to listen, is being taught how to fight and depending on how she leaves the service of the Faceless Men, might be able to assume any number of identities to both learn of plots and put an end to them before they come to bloom. What better role for Arya than one where she can use her skills in service to her family without having to embrace the stereotypical roles of a woman in Westeros?

Throw in Lord Tormund and Lady Brienne of Last Hearth and their giant beautiful warrior daughters as the fiercest allies of the Crown while you're at it too and you've got probably the strongest and most effective leadership pool Westeros has ever seen.

This is wonderful speculation and could certainly fit where everyone is n the current narrative. I don't like the idea of Jon and Sansa together for reasons of incest both physical and spiritual. They were raised as half siblings and while they are almost certainly cousins and first cousins have married before, its generally considered I'll advised. Why can't Jon marry someone else? After everything is said and done, things in Westeros will be different enough that Jon might not have to make a political marriage from whatever remains of the current aristocratic power structure. Jon also strikes me as one of the least likely people to make that kind of marriage. Aristocracy is always going to be an ambivalent idea for him due to his bastardy. He knows what love is thanks to his relationship with Ygritte. And, what would any of the named candidates other than Sansa be bringing to the table of this theoretical marriage? Also, both Sansa and Jon have some claim to Winterfell and the North, both muddied due to his illigetimacy and Sansas femininity. Toss up there. If we see Jon married it should be to someone as yet unknown!

Certainly they don't have time to make the White Walker apocalypse all that it has been foreshadowed and that is an upsetting shame. One of the themes of the book has been the idea that real, uncontrollable disaster is hurtling toward everyone while they waste time and resources on things that only seem important. Its been an interesting metaphor and I for one would hate not watching/reading how this plays out for the mad, the bad, the great and the good. The innocent and guilty alike will reap this whirlwind and missing it will be sad, though I think it more likely that we get short shrift from a narrative perspective. I wish GRRM would let Daniel Abraham help him as a ghost writer.

Thanks to all who detailed Dany's moral ambiguity and entitlement. I always had an issue with her acquisition of the Unsullied but could never put my finger exactly on it. A slave by any other circumstances.... The psychology of the Unsullied would take a team years to sort out. Those poor guys. And it isn't just the obvious mutilation but the fact that they've been un-selved in such cunning, calculated and vicious ways (the daily un-naming, the puppies, the reasons they still visit brothels) breaks my heart. Dany, while in some ways a passionate ideologue expects not only loyalty but for people to choose and embrace slavery to her as some sort of goddess queen. It is consistent with the circumstances of her life as an exile, slave child bride and dragon sister of Viserys, but it doesn't necessarily make for a good leader. I wonder what Varys would make of this if he'd been able to observe Dany longer especially in light of what he said about Aegon. Yeah, one person with too much power? Any person? Definitely not a good idea. Dany may end up being a huge red herring in terms of ruling at the end of the day.

Jon needs to reunite the North so they can start preparing for the WW to come. And isn't the Wall supposed to literally fall? Will Melisandre be an unwitting tool in bringing it down? When her role in Shireen's death is known, will her punishment and subsequent anger bring this about? Or will the NW go with Jon to take WF, rally the North and prepare for the invasion and abandon the Wall temporarily thus fulfilling the old saying?

[Umbelina]

7 hours ago, Oscirus said:

 

As for Jon, I just cant see him leaving the wall permanently.  This series has spent so much time establishing the wall is his home that it would be really weird if Jon suddenly left the wall and became king knowing the threat that's out there.

They stabbed him to death.

That's enough motivation for anyone.

[AuntieMame]

17 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

They stabbed him to death.

That's enough motivation for anyone.

I tend to agree. Jon was at best ambivalent about joining the Night's Watch in the first place. He was a bastard son, not yet a mature man who had yet to work out his family baggage and there wasn't any kind of clear path for him. Benjen's visit and a little hero worship combined with a bit of adolescent confusion sent him north. He was then good and loyal for the most part but often had doubts up to and including a near desertion. Then there is the fact that the NW has become all but useless in both fights the worldly and the other worldly and Jon wants to be of actual use. 

The fact that a significant portion of those he honorably led just Ceasared him in the snow is just icing on the cake. Jon Snow will lay his life down to protect the North and all the realms of men but he will no longer be doing it under the aegis of the NW.

[Oscirus]

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But to presume that Jon would go back to the Wall presumes that there will still BE a Wall to go back to or even the need to rebuild it in the first place. If the Others are defeated permanently then there's no need for a Night's Watch any longer. Their purpose would be fulfilled all the Night's Watch survivors can go on to other things. In which case Jon will just have a head start on them.

There's always going to be a need for people at the wall. Just because the white walkers get dealt with doesn't mean that there won't be other threats out there.
 

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They stabbed him to death.

That's enough motivation for anyone.

 

The men who plotted against him are dead.  That motivation don't fly.

 

He might try to reject the wall and claim that winterfel is his home, but ultimately, he'll figure out that the wall or whatever's left of it is where he belongs at the end.

[SeanC]

4 hours ago, Oscirus said:

There's always going to be a need for people at the wall. Just because the white walkers get dealt with doesn't mean that there won't be other threats out there.

Not really.  From what we've seen, it's been the White Walkers and the Wildlings for 8000 years.    

[Chris24601]

32 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Not really.  From what we've seen, it's been the White Walkers and the Wildlings for 8000 years.    

Indeed, this isn't a comic book series where they have to keep resetting things to some status quo because there can never a true ending; its The Lord of Rings which had an utterly decisive end to all the conflicts. At worst its The Hunger Games where the main threat is resolved but some things are uncertain.

There may indeed be other threats, but I don't think they'll be coming from the Lands Always Winter again. Every last living person except Bran's crew is already south of the Wall and will shortly be integrated into whatever government Jon ends up forming. That leaves the White Walkers who will be destroyed utterly this time because that's how this sort of story works... thousands of years ago the threat is dealt a blow, but recovers and threatens the world again only to finally be defeated forever by the heroes of the story. Villains don't get third chances any more than the heroes do.

Ultimately, any time a story is expands to become an epic, there's only one meta-narrative possible... the End of the Age (and beginning of a new age). The fall of the old kingdom or the rise of a new one, the final destruction of a great evil, the end or return of balance to the world, magic leaving or entering the world, etc... and the effect this End/Beginning has on the protagonists living through it.

If you think this ends with everything basically falling back into place, I'm afraid you'll be bitterly disappointed. Most of the Great Houses are collapsing, supernatural forces are returning to the world and massive invasions are imminent. Before too long the old capitol will be an abandoned husk (as seen in Dany's vision) and the Wall that bounded the realms of Men will have fallen. Thousand year old (at least on the show) sages are passing on their wisdom to a new generation before they too succumb. Dragons roam the skies for the first time in centuries.

This doesn't end with Jon going back to the edge of the world to die alone... his happy ending has always been family and he only joined the order because he didn't see a path to that happy ending. That will change and he will find his path to his happy ending because, narratively speaking, there has to be Sweet to make the Bitter have been worth it.

Which again goes to my original point. This is a story not real life, there has to be a purpose to it all. So how do you tie all those disparate happy endings that the people actually worth following want together?

My answer... Jon the King, Sansa the Queen, Davos the Hand, Sam the Maester, Bran the Greenseer, Arya the Master of Whispers and Lord Tormund and Brienne and all their beautiful warrior daughters. Each of them getting exactly what they wanted in the least expected way, but only after great hardship has been endured.

[Umbelina]

Or, the White Walkers are actually the good guys, ridding the world of destructive forces, and go back to where ever when there are only a few decent people left and let the humans start over and try again.

Which would be why they let Sam live.

Do I think this is the answer for the series?  Not really, but honestly, it's just as possible. 

There is another possible ending, but it comes from (maybe legit) spoilers so I don't want to bring it here.  Actually I can see this ending many different ways, but at least we will get an ending!  Thanks HBO.

Edited May 20, 2016 by Umbelina

[DigitalCount]

Forgive me if this has been mentioned, but is there any chance we're getting a version of the fAegon plot combined with queenmaker, perhaps with a Sand Snake as Rhaenywrong Targaryen? Could Ellaria be counting on Rhaenyra installing her as rightful ruler of Dorne, hence the coup? And then she could kill Kevan in Varys' place? Someone tell me I'm wrong. 

[Maximum Taco]

10 minutes ago, DigitalCount said:

Forgive me if this has been mentioned, but is there any chance we're getting a version of the fAegon plot combined with queenmaker, perhaps with a Sand Snake as Rhaenywrong Targaryen? Could Ellaria be counting on Rhaenyra installing her as rightful ruler of Dorne, hence the coup? And then she could kill Kevan in Varys' place? Someone tell me I'm wrong. 

You mean Rhaenys? I don't think so. I don't think Ellaria (as we've seen) is quite smart enough to come up with a plan like that, she's just aiming for pure revenge. 

I do guess it's somewhat possible, unlike Aegon, who was Targaryen in his looks (fair hair, purple eyes) Rhaenys was said to look "like a Martell." I would actually be somewhat impressed with the show if this was the case, great way to fake out book readers by replacing the Aegon plot with a Rhaenys one.

Edited May 20, 2016 by Maximum Taco

[DigitalCount]

Yes, thanks for the correction, lol. I guess that would make her...Rhaenysn't?

I almost wish I hadn't thought of this, because it could salvage a lot of the missteps for me, and I'm sure they aren't thinking in that direction. Of course there's probably a glaring issue that I haven't contemplated, so there's that. 

[Oscirus]

3 hours ago, SeanC said:

Not really.  From what we've seen, it's been the White Walkers and the Wildlings for 8000 years

Just because they've been around for so long doesn't change the fact that another threat can arise in their place. As a matter of fact, I'd argue that it makes it more likely.
 

Quote

 

Indeed, this isn't a comic book series where they have to keep resetting things to some status quo because there can never a true ending; its The Lord of Rings which had an utterly decisive end to all the conflicts. At worst its The Hunger Games where the main threat is resolved but some things are uncertain

 

This story is it's own entity. You can't just set up an organization that is meant to protect the realm from everything that is unknown then all of a sudden just get rid of it because the main threat is defeated. Regardless of whether there's a threat or not, fear of the unknown should dictate that you keep that organization in place.

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Ultimately, any time a story is expands to become an epic, there's only one meta-narrative possible... the End of the Age (and beginning of a new age).

That's already being set up. The elimination of the old guard and the rise of the new guard. We've been watching it for the past five seasons the old way of running the government isn't working anymore it's evolving thanks to the new players.  That doesn't mean that everybody's just going to change the way they do business. It just means that new power players and new threats will have room to arise.
 

To sum it up there is no reset button, I suspect it'll end with business as usual with people being where they need to be not where they want to be. If the two intersect, fine, that still doesn't mean that all the good guys are going to get what they want.

[SeanC]

8 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Just because they've been around for so long doesn't change the fact that another threat can arise in their place. As a matter of fact, I'd argue that it makes it more likely.
...

This story is it's own entity. You can't just set up an organization that is meant to protect the realm from everything that is unknown then all of a sudden just get rid of it because the main threat is defeated. Regardless of whether there's a threat or not, fear of the unknown should dictate that you keep that organization in place.

The Night's Watch wasn't set up to guard against "everything that is unknown".  They were established to guard against the White Walkers.  They ended up spending the intervening 8000 years fighting Wildlings, who were essentially a collateral effect of building the Wall in the first place, and effectively no longer exist.  There's no indication there's anything else north of the Wall that requires a giant magical wall and an ineffective warrior brotherhood to fight; otherwise we'd probably have seen something like that in the intervening 8000 years.

[Oscirus]

Night watch is about guarding the wall and that entrance to the realm. Just because a threat hasn't been seen doesn't mean it still can't be out there..

For all we known other threats could've been seen they just haven't been reported/recorded for one reason or the other.

Edited May 20, 2016 by Oscirus

[Haleth]

Snarks and grumpkins.  And don't forget giant ice spiders. 

[SeanC]

15 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Night watch is about guarding the wall and that entrance to the realm.

From the White Walkers.  That's why it's the only border of the realm requiring that kind of defense.

[Maximum Taco]

32 minutes ago, SeanC said:

From the White Walkers.  That's why it's the only border of the realm requiring that kind of defense.

Or it's because the Wall is the Northern most point it is feasible to go.

There's nothing preventing them from establishing castles and ports on the East, West and Southern borders, which are all bounded by the seas, and when Dorne was not part of the Kingdoms the mountains provided a natural barrier. Also then they can establish settlements in between which will prevent enemies from settling there.

The far North however is completely undefended because nobody wants to live there, it's more feasible to build a wall and leave a garrison then it is to establish settlements. The Wall would've been a pretty standard measure even if there weren't magical ice zombies, maybe it wouldn't have been a 700 foot tall wall, but there would probably be some sort of man made barrier constructed to guard against invasion from the North. The Night's Watch is a little more severe, you're guarding against something special if it requires the creation of a monastic warrior order.

Edited May 20, 2016 by Maximum Taco

[AuntieMame]

Where do I find the possibly legit spoilers that were too hot to mention? Spoilers don't ruin things for me personally, so I would like to go off in Search of them if someone can point me in the right direction. 

My only issue with what is listed is Jon and Sansa. Ugh. Just ugh.

I am thrilled to see someone for Brienne other than Jaime Lannister. I know that was pushed hard in the books and while reading I responded the way it was intended but when I thought about it I was angry with the patronizing tone of it all and thought that Brienne deserved better. The whole idea that golden, handsome Jaime is lowering himself to like brave, stalwart, honorable Brienne because she has the gall to not be pretty just makes me mad. Especially when Jaime is a child murderer and a liar by omission and commission and a ton of other questionable things and Brienne and the reader are expected to feel gratitude to him for deigning to like her? Eff that noise. I know Jaime has done some good things too, but I'm never going to be all right with him throwing Bran from the tower. It just isn't okay. Nor has he ever shown the smallest smidgen of remorse.

[Eyes High]

20 minutes ago, AuntieMame said:

Where do I find the possibly legit spoilers that were too hot to mention? Spoilers don't ruin things for me personally, so I would like to go off in Search of them if someone can point me in the right direction. 

Go to the Season 6 Info and Spoilers thread. Anything hidden under a spoiler warning in the spoiler thread is the good shit (or posters commenting on that information).

Edited May 20, 2016 by Eyes High

[Hecate7]

1 hour ago, Maximum Taco said:

Or it's because the Wall is the Northern most point it is feasible to go.

There's nothing preventing them from establishing castles and ports on the East, West and Southern borders, which are all bounded by the seas, and when Dorne was not part of the Kingdoms the mountains provided a natural barrier. Also then they can establish settlements in between which will prevent enemies from settling there.

The far North however is completely undefended because nobody wants to live there, it's more feasible to build a wall and leave a garrison then it is to establish settlements. The Wall would've been a pretty standard measure even if there weren't magical ice zombies, maybe it wouldn't have been a 700 foot tall wall, but there would probably be some sort of man made barrier constructed to guard against invasion from the North. The Night's Watch is a little more severe, you're guarding against something special if it requires the creation of a monastic warrior order.

But if there's nobody up there, there's literally no need for a wall or for any other sort of defense. You only build a wall when there's something you want to keep out. The wall itself is a testament to the Walkers. It's not there in lieu of a settlement, it's there to protect the settlements south of the wall. I can't think of any other place that has a huge wall protecting itself from the arctic circle.

[Maximum Taco]

2 hours ago, Hecate7 said:

But if there's nobody up there, there's literally no need for a wall or for any other sort of defense. You only build a wall when there's something you want to keep out. The wall itself is a testament to the Walkers. It's not there in lieu of a settlement, it's there to protect the settlements south of the wall. I can't think of any other place that has a huge wall protecting itself from the arctic circle.

The Walkers haven't been seen in centuries though. There was literally nothing but the elements (and poorly equipped wildlings) to prevent Westerosi from venturing beyond the wall.

The Wall may have been built to keep out the Walkers, but it was maintained to repel invasion from the North in lieu of establishing a real presence beyond the wall.

The fact is nobody wants to live there, and it was more feasible to maintain the Wall and the Watch then it was to venture North, slaughter all the wildlings (or force their surrender) and establish settlements up there. Aerys II himself wanted to push Northward 100 leagues and build a new wall. The new Wall he built wouldn't have been to keep out the Walkers, it would've been built to protect his realm against invasion.

Edited May 20, 2016 by Maximum Taco

[MarySNJ]

On May 19, 2016 at 1:53 PM, SeanC said:

I think the Night's Watch will be a thing of the past when this series ends, one way or another.

Because really, when you look at it, the Watch was a miserable failure at its original purpose.  It literally forgot how to fight the White Walkers, which was their whole raison d'etre, and conditions there are so shitty that its membership can't be maintained if there's no constant warfare resulting in prisoners being sent there.

I agree. Even some of the NW brothers didn't believe in the White Walkers until they couldn't deny it anymore, so their purpose was pretty questionable anyway. Basically it was a dumping ground for the Seven Kingdom's criminals and cast-offs which very few took seriously.  And anyway I don't think there needs to be a NW if the North unites to protect itself and by extension, the Southern kingdoms. 

[GrailKing]

On 5/19/2016 at 1:53 PM, SeanC said:

I think the Night's Watch will be a thing of the past when this series ends, one way or another.

Because really, when you look at it, the Watch was a miserable failure at its original purpose.  It literally forgot how to fight the White Walkers, which was their whole raison d'etre, and conditions there are so shitty that its membership can't be maintained if there's no constant warfare resulting in prisoners being sent there.

While I think this is true, I look at it as it is really hard to totally exterminate a race ( not talking insects or animals) and if this whole thing is over a broken pact and Jon or someone is the broker and it gets resolved, then the Watch may be reformed with rules allowing marriage, and lands and titles.

Each house and populace may have to serve X number of years for the realm at the wall, to protect the northern boundaries.

[Constantinople]

16 hours ago, Oscirus said:

There's always going to be a need for people at the wall. Just because the white walkers get dealt with doesn't mean that there won't be other threats out there.

 

12 hours ago, SeanC said:

Not really.  From what we've seen, it's been the White Walkers and the Wildlings for 8000 years.    

A final battle means commemorating the final battle, which means the Castle Black Museum, Ye Olde Gift Shoppe, tour guides, etc.  And that means people

10 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Or, the White Walkers are actually the good guys, ridding the world of destructive forces, and go back to where ever when there are only a few decent people left and let the humans start over and try again.

"...it was all for nothing", Queen Margaery, quoting Verse 25 of the Book of the Stranger

[benteen]

Out of left field but do you think Cersei (through Dany) is the one that wants Lady Crane killed?  She did say she wanted everyone who was speaking ill of her to be killed.

[SeanC]

Just now, benteen said:

Out of left field but do you think Cersei (through Dany) is the one that wants Lady Crane killed?  She did say she wanted everyone who was speaking ill of her to be killed.

That play is actually quite sympathetic to her (and Joffrey) and villainizes Tyrion and Ned, so I think she'd be quite pleased by it.

[SeanC]

So, any thoughts on what Dany will be doing for the remainder of the season?  I figured the whole Dothraki adventure would take considerably longer.

[DigitalCount]

Turning down date night with Euron, then smiling smugly as he tries to steal the dragons and gets roasted? 

[Chris24601]

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

So, any thoughts on what Dany will be doing for the remainder of the season?  I figured the whole Dothraki adventure would take considerably longer.

My hunch is she'll need to get her affairs in order to head to Westeros, but that she may actually be absent for at least one of the remaining episodes. It looks like next week is going to be pretty King's Landing heavy and we're likely to get a Meereen skip week (maybe even a "Wall" skip week... though now that they've left I'm not sure what we call that crew).

One shot from the trailers we haven't seen yet is the show of Drogon's shadow flying over the Dothraki... so I'm betting Dany gets reunited with Drogon either next episode (which would explain her otherwise seemingly filler scene with Dario; reuniting with Drogon is definitely something worthy of being seen on screen while another Dario tells Dany she's a conqueror, amazing, blah blah blah is not). It can't happen too much later simply because the terrain in the shot looked pretty close to that of Vos Dothrak.

[kittykat]

Isn't the title of next week's episode "Blood of My Blood"?  I imagine we'll get some Dany next week.  Possibly establishing relationships with the khaleesis and possible Bloodriders.

Looks like it's a heavy KL episode with a possible peek at at one of the Northerners.  I did not miss Ramsey this episode and wouldn't mind not seeing him in at least one more.  My guess is we won't see the wall and probably Brienne.

[SeanC]

In the speculative realm, Bloodraven said that the Night King's mark was what allowed him to penetrate the wards on the cave.  Meera is now presumably dragging Bran back to the Wall.  Will taking Bran through the Wall have the same effect?  I almost can't imagine this, because that would make Bran the most spectacular screwup in the entire series.

[Funzlerks]

Maybe Bran will decide not to cross the wall for that reason.  I really hope that he isn't Bloodraven.

Could TV Daario be Aegon?  I still feel like Aegon's absence is the only thing that doesn't make sense.  It is a good conflict for the Eastern players.

Also, what do the White Walkers want?  Are they just inexorably set on killing all the men mode?

Edited May 23, 2016 by Funzlerks

[Alapaki]

2 hours ago, SeanC said:

In the speculative realm, Bloodraven said that the Night King's mark was what allowed him to penetrate the wards on the cave.  Meera is now presumably dragging Bran back to the Wall.  Will taking Bran through the Wall have the same effect?  I almost can't imagine this, because that would make Bran the most spectacular screwup in the entire series.

I suggested this in the episode thread.   And, although I can't imagine the 3 eyed Raven not having told Bran (once the shit hit the fan) about the consequences of his going south of the Wall, no one ever went broke overestimating Bran's capacity to screw up.  

Maybe he wargs into a bird and gets shot down south of the wall?  Maybe the Night's King constructs an Ice Trebuchet and hurls Bran over the Wall.  

Either way, at least I think we're in for an interesting reveal in terms of who is going to help guide Bran and Meera now.

[Alapaki]

And, how do we get the rest of the TOJ reveal now?

I'm assuming that for all of Bran's curiosity about his family history, the fact that when he went rogue he visioned himself into the center of the zombie army suggests that he doesn't have control over where he goes/what he sees (unless the 3ER taught him in that short "oh shit!"period).

And he and Meera are not going to have the luxury of stopping at weir wood trees along the way to allow for Bran's nostalgia.  

I was expecting the reveal in episode 5 or 6.  But I'm not sure how they get it in next week.  

Perhaps, as some have speculated, if Bran is "saved" by Benjen, maybe Benjen has some ability to both facilitate Bran's visioning and direct him back to the TOJ.

[Haleth]

1 hour ago, Alapaki said:

Maybe the Night's King constructs an Ice Trebuchet and hurls Bran over the Wall.  

Ha!  I don't think that's what Ol' 3 Eyes meant when he said Bran would fly. 

[FemmyV]

3 hours ago, SeanC said:

In the speculative realm, Bloodraven said that the Night King's mark was what allowed him to penetrate the wards on the cave.  Meera is now presumably dragging Bran back to the Wall.  Will taking Bran through the Wall have the same effect?  I almost can't imagine this, because that would make Bran the most spectacular screwup in the entire series.

I can't imagine how there is any running away from the NK now. If they make it to the wall, it will be because he wants them to.

[Maximum Taco]

3 hours ago, FemmyV said:

I can't imagine how there is any running away from the NK now. If they make it to the wall, it will be because he wants them to.

Or they get help. Coldhands? Benjen?

I also find it pretty unbelievable that Meera can get Bran back to the Wall solo. They barely made it to the cave and that was with Hodor, Summer and Jojen in addition to a little Children of the Forest last minute backup.

Edited May 24, 2016 by Maximum Taco

[kittykat]

If anything they might end up at Crasters Keep for a brief moment.  Though the wives might not be so welcoming.  That is if they're there, I think last we saw they hightailed it after the NW mutineers turned it into a rape den.

I'm starting to think that Benjen or Coldhands is making an appearance to facilitate getting them to the wall.

And for the love of the whatever gods can they please stop leaving THE DAMN DRAGONGLASS BEHIND!