Ray Palmer: The ATOM

[quarks]

3 hours ago, WildcardC said:

Really, Isnt that like your interpretation on what you think went down?. No one seems to be able to provide a link, actual confirmation of CW or Showrunners saying they want to do an Atom Spin off. Its all rumors/fan specs/opinion until someone can actually provide proof IMO. If you guys are gonna treat this as a fact, then lets see the facts, aint it?

We all have our interpretations, I wouldnt say BR was the biggest name CW had at that time nor do I even think he was ever an A lister. The Arrowverse ptb love to do nostalgic stunt casting, BR isnt the only one to have had played a DC superhero role or some other iconic genre role  and be cast in this universe.

I found this:http://screencrush.com/arrow-the-atom-spinoff-brandon-routh-ray-palmer/

No confirmation of an Atom spin off, now why would they keep such information at a big marketing event like TCA? They only express wanting to expand the universe and discussing some general ideas. Even though the media tried to spin it into being an Atom show. 

Routh is the most expensive Arrowverse actor?  news to me. Link/proof please? They spend money on his suit yes, but it could mean they wanted to keep him on Arrow or send him The Flash or something else. Who says Ray wasnt received well?, its not anything I have heard CW or showrunners say.  If its not actually confirmed by them then its a fan opinion/theory/specs etc. 

Hollywood has pretty recognized standards for what it calls "A list" - merit/fame appearances on the prime Oscars red carpet, starring in a major motion picture, that sort of thing. 

Other than Victor Garber and Mark Hamill, Routh is the only actor on the CW to have a major role in a major motion picture earning more than $300 million. Routh is also one of only four actors on the CW to make more than one appearance on the prime Oscars red carpet on his own merit: the others were Mark Hamill again (back in the 1970s/early 80s and then, after a long absence, this year, kinda), Garber again, and Calista Flockhart. In the context of this conversation, it's important to note that the CW can't even afford Flockhart as a regular and is bringing her in only for special guest appearances, has only brought Hamill (who was out of the A list for decades) in for two appearances, and initially hired Garber for only two episodes, not the several episode deal they offered Routh.  

Sure, his career had been dropping ever since Superman Returns, but that doesn't change the fact that at one point, Routh was an A-lister.

And of course no one at the CW or any of the showrunners have said that Ray wasn't received well. He's still on a show they want viewers to watch.

But you wanted proof. 

Here's Deadline, January 2015:

http://deadline.com/2015/01/cw-looking-to-expand-dc-comics-universe-with-atom-tca-1201347223/

[Sakura12]

You can look up Celebrity net worth. Brandon Routh is at 12 million to Stephen Amell's 3 million. 

http://networthtomb.com/brandon-routh-net-worth-endorsement-actor/

http://networthtomb.com/stephen-amell-net-worth-endorsement-actor/

[quarks]

And just to add - I don't think that the fan reception to Ray Palmer/Atom was actually bad, apart from a few detractors here and there. If the fan response had been all that negative, he wouldn't be on Legends of Tomorrow. The CW just didn't think that the fan response was good enough to let him anchor a show on his own, which is an entirely different thing.

[CabotCove]

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You can look up Celebrity net worth. Brandon Routh is at 12 million to Stephen Amell's 3 million. 

http://networthtomb.com/brandon-routh-net-worth-endorsement-actor/

http://networthtomb.com/stephen-amell-net-worth-endorsement-actor/

http://gb.imdb.com/name/nm0746125/. According to IMDB BR was in at least in 9 other projects besides Arrow (TV/Movies) in the 2014-15 period, so no all his moneys didnt come from Arrow in that period. I would this BR's networth is higher than SA as he has been acting longer and has been to be in more projects. Even Colton Haynes net worth is still higher than SA. 

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In the context of this conversation, it's important to note that the CW can't even afford Flockhart as a regular and is bringing her in only for special guest appearances

Except we have heard that was CF's decision, she wanted to stay in LA with her family.  

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And of course no one at the CW or any of the showrunners have said that Ray wasn't received well. He's still on a show they want viewers to watch.But you wanted proof. Here's Deadline, January 2015: http://deadline.com/2015/01/cw-looking-to-expand-dc-comics-universe-with-atom-tca-1201347223/

Thanks for link except that not proof. I have posted a similar TCA link earlier [http://screencrush.com/arrow-flash-tca-2015-spinoff-spoilers-reverse-firestorm/]. Its all pretty much media spinning tales for click bait. The actual quotes from CW President & Flarrow writers state that they had plans  to expand the universe, but still hadnt come to a decision what the show will be. Of course Atom was thrown in but likely so was  Birds of Prey, Firestorm, team show and so many other possibilities.

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But when asked directly about a possible Atom-centered spinoff, Pedowitz hedged, "There's room for a lot of things, but we're not there. Again, preliminary discussions."

http://www.eonline.com/news/613366/the-cw-is-looking-at-another-arrow-the-flash-spinoff-find-out-which-character-it-could-be

Right from the horse's mouth that Ray's "expensive suit" had nothing to do with a spin off but for use in Arrow.

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N: Is that something you’ve kept in mind when designing his costume, about whether it could work in an Atom series as well as on episodes of Arrow?

MG: No, the costume is just “How do we get it to work on Arrow?” Maya Mani did the design that she always does. It’s her best costume, and that’s really saying something. It’s coming together beautifully. Brandon just did his third fitting with it, and it’s the most ambitious costume we’ve ever done on the show. One of the things I like about it is we did it without consideration of a spinoff. We did it because this is a cool thing to have on Arrow.

http://nerdist.com/exclusive-arrow-executive-producer-marc-guggenheim-talks-brandon-routh-atom-spin-off-show/

Edited August 5, 2016 by WildcardC

[CabotCove]

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And just to add - I don't think that the fan reception to Ray Palmer/Atom was actually bad, apart from a few detractors here and there. If the fan response had been all that negative, he wouldn't be on Legends of Tomorrow. The CW just didn't think that the fan response was good enough to let him anchor a show on his own, which is an entirely different thing.

Unless you have explicit evidence you are making assumptions about what The CW thought and did.  They are plenty of reasons why a network might pass off a show idea, that are not about fan response. I could just as easily say they didnt want another white male show or they felt Atom wasnt a big enough hero to herald his own line. Even if fan response was part of it, might not have been the only reason. Its could be that Flarrow writers had differing ideas for spin offs, and could be why they  & CW settled on a combined show.  Bottom line, we all have our assumptions and theories. None of us were there in the room when they had those talks. Each too their own.

[kismet]

12 hours ago, quarks said:

Other than Victor Garber and Mark Hamill, Routh is the only actor on the CW to have a major role in a major motion picture earning more than $300 million. Routh is also one of only four actors on the CW to make more than one appearance on the prime Oscars red carpet on his own merit: the others were Mark Hamill again (back in the 1970s/early 80s and then, after a long absence, this year, kinda), Garber again, and Calista Flockhart. In the context of this conversation, it's important to note that the CW can't even afford Flockhart as a regular and is bringing her in only for special guest appearances, has only brought Hamill (who was out of the A list for decades) in for two appearances, and initially hired Garber for only two episodes, not the several episode deal they offered Routh.  

It's also worthy to note that Garber initially took the gig as a favor to Berlanti... So without their friendship, Garber would probably never had stepped into the role.

Hamil seems to be involved in the Comics world, so I could see him wanting to partake in the Flarrowverse. Plus it links back to his previous professional role/connection to DC Comics.

BR seems to have just needed to find a new project with spin-off potential since he seemed free and TV is good $$ if you can get the right role. It also helped that he didn't need to carry the actual project, no pressure or failure on his record.

[Delphi]

Of course that money isn't just from Arrow.  You use the net worth amount to kind of ball park figure out about how much an actor costs per project.   For example, Stephen did not get over a million dollars for TMNT the way Brandon did for Superman Returns.   In the same vein Colton is a teen heartthrob and has been a main cast member in no less than four television shows in addition to his modeling career.  Willa Holland was a main cast member of a show for five years on a better network earning more than the CW can afford.  These people cost more money than Stephen Amell, he's cw big and that frankly is just not a big deal. 

Edited August 5, 2016 by Delphi

[quarks]

WildcardC, this discussion is starting to go into circles now, so this will be my last post on the subject, but a few points:

1. As a minor point, several Star Wars articles last year noted that when filming allows, Harrison Ford and Calista Flockhart prefer to live at their Wyoming home, not in L.A. Flockhart does have a home in L.A., and - like most Hollywood stars - does most of her filming there, but she's also done international shoots and worked on various New York and West End theatre productions. Are you possibly confusing Flockhart with Chyler Leigh, who did reportedly state that she wanted to stay in L.A. with her family, but ended up in Vancouver anyway?  

Anyway, I don't know Flockhart's salary, but she is a Golden Globe/SAG winner and Emmy nominee who was reportedly earning $250,000 per episode on her prior show, Brothers and Sisters. Several CW actors have reported, openly or anonymously in various comments on a Hollywood Reporter article last year, that even as regulars they are earning from $7,000 to $15,000 per episode. 

2. I usually don't want to speak for Sakura12 - and to be honest, I don't really trust that site she linked to - but her point was not that Routh was making more per episode than Amell was/is on Arrow (although he may have); her point is that Routh, who started acting in 2006, is reportedly earning/worth about six times more than Stephen Amell, who started acting two years earlier, in 2004.  And that's even after Routh starred in a series of box office bombs (presumably one reason why he took the role on Arrow). As you yourself noted, he kept receiving multiple job offers. He was and is a bigger star than other CW/Arrowverse actors, including Amell, and one of the few - along with Mark Hamill, Calista Flockhart, Jesse Martin, and Victor Garber - who is a widely recognized household name. 

3. 

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 I could just as easily say they didnt want another white male show or they felt Atom wasnt a big enough hero to herald his own line.

 

Not sure you can say the first part of this, given that, for all intents and purposes, Legends of Tomorrow did end up as another white male show. The first three actors in the credits are all white men. This season's regular cast of 10 actors includes only 3 women, one of whom has only a voice role - basically making this a 7 men, 2 women cast. Of those nine people, 7 are white, 2 are black. It's arguably a step down from last season, if we're counting Wentworth Miller as PoC, since he's now a three show regular, not a LoT regular.

This is actually slightly worse than the other Arrowverse shows: this season, Supergirl has seven regulars - 2 black, 1 Hispanic, 3 women; Flash has 8 regulars - 3 black, 1 Hispanic, 2 women; Arrow has seven regulars - 2 black, 2 women.  So if you're really trying to say that the CW didn't want another white male show, how did they end up with a show whiter/more male than the other shows?

If you're saying that Atom wasn't a big enough hero to herald his own line, well, I agree that might have been one factor, especially given that the show added the better known Hawkgirl and Hawkman.  But in January 2015, the producers and the CW were well aware that the most recent superhero smash hit focused on the far more obscure superheroes of Guardians of the Galaxy, which followed Disney's surprise success with the animated Big Hero 6, another completely unknown superhero group, and the success of Iron Man, at the time of the film certainly better known than Big Hero 6, but still, one of Marvel's lesser known superheroes. The producers also knew in January 2015 that the breakaway fan favorites of the Arrowverse were Felicity Smoak and Cisco Ramon, two obscure characters from the comics. And they knew that WB had decided to name an upcoming film after the comparatively less known Suicide Squad instead of the well known comic villains it featured, Joker and Harley Quinn.

So your first argument here doesn't hold up to what we've seen on the show, and your second argument doesn't hold up to current box office results or what happened on Arrow/Flash, or what happened last year when Flash gave Cisco his own little spinoff webseries to capitalize on his popularity.

3. Yes, when it comes to what the CW was thinking, I'm assuming - that's why I used the words "I think." I don't know the specific reasons why they shifted from an Atom-centered show (as the interviews all confirm was under discussion) to an ensemble show.  

4. With the rest, however, I'm not assuming. 

That MG article/interview you're quoting as proof that Ray's expensive suit had nothing to do with a spinoff? Here's how that article starts:

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Arrow andFlash executive producer Greg Berlanti revealed that he and his fellow producers Marc Guggenheim and Andrew Kreisberg are in early talks about an Atom spin-off series starring Brandon Routh, 

So your "proof" that Ray Palmer/Atom wasn't intended for a spinoff and that Legends of Tomorrow wasn't originally pitched as an Atom spinoff is from an article that directly states that the Arrow producers were pitching a Ray Palmer/Atom spinoff and that Legends of Tomorrow was originally pitched as an Atom spinoff. 

MG confirms this further down in the interview, which took place in January 2015. His statement that the Ray Palmer suit was designed to fit on Arrow is thus completely correct - at the time of this interview, MG knew that the Atom suit would be appearing on Arrow (that episode had already been filmed and was in post production), but did not know if the Ray Palmer/Atom spinoff would happen. It does not mean, as you are attempting to claim, that the producers had no plans for an Atom spinoff, especially since this statement was made in the exact same interview that confirmed the plans for an Atom spinoff.

That Pedowitz conversation that you just quoted as proof that I'm wrong? Specifically confirms the direct opposite: that yes, Pedowitz was in "preliminary discussions" about an Atom show. Not an ensemble show, but specifically, an Atom show. "Preliminary discussions" means that the project was pitched, and the network was discussing it, but had not made a decision yet - exactly what Berlanti was saying in January 2015, that he was pitching an Atom show, but that the CW had not yet picked it up.  

Which is to say, all of the interviews/articles that you are trying to use as evidence that this was some fan speculation prove the direct opposite. At some point between January 2015 and February 2015, the Atom show got changed into an ensemble show. This is not media or fan speculation: it's what happened, confirmed by Pedowitz and Berlanti in various interviews. We can speculate on why it happened, but not about what happened; that's on record.

Incidentally, at about the same time in the previous year, January 2014, the CW had already ordered a Flash pilot, based on the fan reception to Barry Allen's first two Arrow episodes, allowing Arrow to cancel its original plans for a soft Flash pilot at the end of Arrow's second season. In January 2015, after Ray Palmer had been in several episodes, as Pedowitz noted, the CW was still "discussing" an Atom pilot, and had not ordered one. 

5. I'm also not making assumptions about the fan reaction.  The online fan response to Ray Palmer's first appearance on Arrow was almost entirely focused on Sara's death, not Ray Palmer. (Or even Oliver/Felicity's first date/kiss.) Ratings/viewers dropped the very next episode and stayed low until the 5th episode, "The Secret Origins of Felicity Smoak," but did not completely recover until the Flash crossover, which did not feature Ray. 

That said, Ray wasn't unpopular, either - some episodes of Arrow featuring him did very well with ratings/viewers, he occasionally trended on Twitter, and he never generated the same level of online hate that - to pick a non controversial example - that Dj over on Arrow did. He just didn't generate the same positive online/critical response that Barry Allen did in his first two Arrow appearances. 

6.  

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Even if fan response was part of it, 

 

 

The Arrowverse has regularly increased the roles of characters that got a positive online fan response and/or were associated with improved ratings (Felicity Smoak, Slade, Captain Cold, Malcolm Merlyn, Deadshot, Cisco, Curtis Holt), given them their own little webseries (Cisco) or kept those characters on for longer than originally anticipated (Malcolm Merlyn, the various versions of Wells).  On the opposite side, the Arrowverse has also either killed off or sent away characters who got a negative online fan response (the Hawks, that DJ over on Arrow). 

Edited August 6, 2016 by quarks

[CabotCove]

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So your "proof" that Ray Palmer/Atom wasn't intended for a spinoff and that Legends of Tomorrow wasn't originally pitched as an Atom spinoff is from an article that directly states that the Arrow producers were pitching a Ray Palmer/Atom spinoff and that Legends of Tomorrow was originally pitched as an Atom spinoff. 

Im looking at the actual quotes from CW/writers not what the media/journalists narrates or conclude from their words. Its not like the media doesn't spin people's words to support their own agenda or desires, at times. Some are fans just like us. Its not like their subjects are present when these journalists spin away their narratives on paper. From article:

NERDIST: You just mentioned you’ve given some consideration to an Atom spin-off series…

MARC GUGGENHEIM: The thing that we’ve been talking about is just how do we further expand the universe; and we love Brandon and we love having him on Arrow.

How is that a confirmation of "Yes definitely we are doing an Atom series" ?.   The only one who talks/pushes about Atom spin off is the media, each time the writers/CW answer vaguely about wanting to expand DCU and having "General talk", "Preliminary discussions". Which could be discussions about Atom and plenty of other spin off potentials. Im not denying that Atom was likely a contender for a spin off, Im disagreeing that it was the only one or that he was the definite choice. Expanding DCU ≠ Atom spin off, plenty of ways they could have kept BR including Arrow.  But I rest my case. 

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WildcardC, this discussion is starting to go into circles now, so this will be my last post on the subject, but a few points:

I dont think it has reached the point of going in circles (its only a page or so) but its probably futile.  I get it some here hate the character, that fair enough but I also sense that they are set on believing the negative narrative about him no matter what. "He failed & sucked, CW said no to his show haha" a narrative that justifies or supports the dislike for the character. So I dont feel there is gonna be true discussion, so no point of it for me, I suppose. Im bowing out too. 

Edited August 6, 2016 by WildcardC

[Sakura12]

I didn't hate Ray from Arrow or base my dislike of the character on whether or not he was being primed of a spin off, I didn't watch Arrow season 3. I liked him in the beginning of this show then they put him in that stupid doomed love triangle. However I never really like the goofy optimistic characters. I like the characters that have an edge to them, the ones that can be both good and bad. That's why Sara, Leonard and Mick are my favorite characters. 

[quarks]

Outside of one episode of Arrow - 317 - where Ray left poor electrocuted Roy in a puddle - I didn't, don't, and never hated Ray.  I did think that just maybe asking the audience to instantly fall in love with the character who came in and immediately took over Oliver's company and then took his girl was perhaps a bit too much, and I wasn't thrilled when Arrow chose to portray actions generally associated with stalking in a positive, romantic light in the Ray/Felicity relationship. I realize that Arrow meant me to take those scenes romantically, not stalkery, but combined with some of the other issues in Arrow's third season, it left a bad taste in my mouth. And I wasn't thrilled with Ray's anti-vigilante attitude, given that he was simultaneously turning himself into a vigilante, just one with a powerful robot suit. It struck me as pretty hypocritical. Once that changed, I found myself liking him a lot more.

But he did have several fun scenes, his comedic work with Felicity was often great even if it sometimes felt as if it was on another show, and I thought he was a lot of fun over on Flash. My chief frustration was that he clearly had the potential to be a great character, but, as so often on Arrow, that potential wasn't exploited. 

I also think that Legends of Tomorrow has done quite a bit to tinker with/improve the character - working more with Brandon Routh's comedic abilities, and giving him a gung ho, wanting to help people hero complex, and also giving him some really great scenes with Captain Cold and Heatwave. He's now consistently fun to watch, rather than fun to watch in between moments of me wincing over the hypocrisy/questionable relationship issues.  

Also, although I loved Hawkgirl/Hawkman in the comics, I liked Ray/Kendra together on Legends of Tomorrow. Yes, the relationship was rushed, mostly offscreen, and undeveloped, and everyone on this forum who criticized that pairing made very good points, but I still liked Ray and found myself cheering for Ray/Kendra instead of Kendra/very boring guy.

None of this changes the fact that I can look at Arrow/Legends of Tomorrow and see that Brandon Routh was an unusual hire for the CW, know that, in Hollywood/screenwriter terms, "preliminary talks" means a pitch/treatment, see that, if you are a CW show confident in your ability to attract an audience centered on a character introduced on Arrow, you probably won't spend the money to bring in both Victor Garber and Wentworth Miller (the SAG/Golden Globe nominations usually translate to a premium for per episode payments) plus a Doctor Who alum, all also unusual hires for the CW, and notice that, Legends of Tomorrow debuted to the lowest ratings/viewers for any of the DC superhero shows, including Gotham and Constantine, and, within 16 episodes, without a hiatus, lost nearly half its original viewers.

[kismet]

I'm just glad the LoT found a way to make BR & RP work. He is finally adorkable on LoT. Arrow had made him a very unlikeable character for me. No redeeming value for him and I never found his comedic interactions with FS to be anything but an obnoxious detour from the show I wanted to watch. The love triangle was dumb, but I actually think it was better handled on LoT. Need to make people fall in love instantly, leave them together in another time and pick them up 2 years later. That worked for me. Perhaps next time, choose a female that is not in a fated soulmate destined to be lovers with another guy that reincarnates. But that is the problem when your show only has 2 leading ladies. And I am glad they choose not to put him with SL, that would have been even worse than Kendra.

[CabotCove]

For the record, and to repeat myself more clearly, I have zero problem & zero care if anyone dislike/hate Ray Palmer. We all have that personal choice to feel how we feel about a character. I just disagree with certain beliefs or assertions about him, that is all.  (And I have agreed to disagree moving forward) 

 

First Look at Two Legends of Tomorrow Pop Vinyls

I hope he gets a revamped suit this season, less bulky and less wires.

Edited August 8, 2016 by WildcardC

[bettername2come]

I really do find myself liking Ray more and more. His friendship with Mick amuses me so much (loved when he yelled "Buddy!" in the cretaceous period). And I'm really buying his enthusiastic optimism and heroism that makes me yell "Why were you such a terrible Superman?!!" I'm baffled by that now, seriously. Ray's been winning me over ever since his first pop over The Flash where he had an instant rapport with Cisco. And in season two, without a lame relationship subplot tying him down, he's more enjoyable. I look forward to where he goes from here, with or without the ATOM suit.

[Featherhat]

I didn't like him in Superman or Arrow but I've always liked him in LOT except with Kendra. Maybe BR should never be involved in a melodramatic love triangle relationship, or just give any relationships a rest for a while on the show, including anything with Sara or Vixen. I'm sure he'll get so version of the suit back at some point but it might be interesting to see him deal without it, even if he hasn't been wearing it all that often, psychologically its always been there for him.

[KirkB]

Routh has a pleasant, happy face and decent comic timing. He plays a good sweet, goofball type character. Those really aren't qualities you generally associate with Superman. But honestly, looking back at Superman Returns, I think Routh's performance was the least of its problems.

[CabotCove]

I dont care about Ray with a gun, he needs to be The Atom, suit or no suit.

[Mellowyellow]

I've always liked Ray but now I absolutely adore him on the latest season of LoT.

To me he's a handsome heroic goofball with a big heart and some pretty humorous quirks.

I'm a pretty hardcore Olicity shipper but I loved Ray and Felicity together. Haha season 3 of Arrow was totally my thing. That flashback in River of Time when he said he would have stayed for her made me so sad. 

I was pretty thrilled to see the pic that was released in the crossover.

[CabotCove]

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I've always liked Ray but now I absolutely adore him on the latest season of LoT.

To me he's a handsome heroic goofball with a big heart and some pretty humorous quirks.

I think he is better this season than he was last season, they see to do more with him than just be the goofy guy. While I like goofball Ray,I like well rounded characters more , which is why I love S2 Ray more.  

[KirkB]

Ray's biggest problem in the first season was being saddled with supporting Kendra. With her gone BR has a chance to make the character shine. Whether or not he actually will is the question. I do think he can be funny and charming when he wants to be.

[BkWurm1]

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To be fair, he holed himself from the public in 407, didn't tell anyone he was alive, left town, had a one-night stand, found out about the time traveling stuff, said bye to Felicity, and then has been time traveling ever since. 

 

Ok, someone posted this over in the Arrow forum about Ray.  I am completely blanking on the bolded part.  Can someone refresh my memory about this?  I don't remember it happening at all, lol.  

[Sakura12]

It was from the episode when we found out about Ray's twin brother Sidney. He thought the future descendent they met was his from a girl that ghosted him. 

[kismet]

9 hours ago, Jediknight said:

The key is after a while on Arrow, they finally realized Routh is great as the all around good guy boy scout, who's also an optimistic dork.  They're not having him be an obstacle for a couple getting together, they've written to his strengths.

^^ from the s3 ET episode^^

I do think they have written to all of his strengths. I think BR/RP issues on Arrow ran deeper than just breaking up a couple. A lot of it was that they wrote him almost playing both good and evil sides, especially in the beginning. He had a creepy stalker-esque introduction, then he came on way to strong. Plus they set him up as one of the quasi-villains of the season. It was a weird choice by the Arrow writers because they set him up (either directly or indirectly) to be hated, but then wanted us to love him. I honestly don't know if Arrow really knew how they wanted RP to be as a character. And unfortunately BR has played good guy gone bad before, so it was not clear in his portrayal either. Since his arrival on LoT, he has nothing but adorakable, so I think the writers finally figured out who RP was. I also think BR probably took some of the Arrow fan response and criticism seriously and tried to work on those problematic aspects of RP. All in All, I have come to love RP on LoT - and that is amazing since I really couldn't stand him at all in Arrow. Kudos to LoT & BR for fixing a seriously broken character and making him work so well. He has become one of my favs on LoT.

Edited November 1, 2017 by kismet

[Starfish35]

5 hours ago, Al Herkimer said:

I thought Ray started off the episode as a victim of some type of brain injury, or possessed, or something.  That overwhelming, "everything turns out for the best" optimism seemed weird coming from a guy who watched helplessly as two mutated freaks butchered his wife before his very eyes.  And he didn't feel at least tempted to warn his younger self about that.

From the "Phone Home" thread.  I don't necessarily agree that the way Ray was acting was out of character, nor would I think he would think to tell an eight-year old how to save his future fiancée.

That said, Legends, except maybe for 1.03 ( the episode where he told Stein about Anna), has always kind of treated Anna as a throwaway plot point, and I think it's a little weird.  He's showed more concern/affection for Felicity and Kendra, then for the woman who was once almost his wife.  When they saved her from the Time Masters' assassin, he seemed more concerned about his relationship with Kendra, and in last year's crossover in his fantasy world, he was with Felicity rather than Anna (of course Oliver was with Laurel rather than Felicity so....).   

It's just kind of weird to me though.  I guess I just wish they'd delve more deeply into his relationship with Anna, and the effect losing her had on him.   Because right now it feels like, to me, that she's treated with a casualness that is a bit disconcerting.  At least for me.

[johntfs]

8 hours ago, Al Herkimer said:

I thought Ray started off the episode as a victim of some type of brain injury, or possessed, or something.  That overwhelming, "everything turns out for the best" optimism seemed weird coming from a guy who watched helplessly as two mutated freaks butchered his wife before his very eyes.  And he didn't feel at least tempted to warn his younger self about that?

Much of the plot made no sense... having a time-traveler worry about getting to the hospital on time in the first place, or having the Waverider and those three characters gone when their friends needed them, when they could have come back from that hospital visit the instant after they left.  I felt like my intelligence was being insulted, and believe me, I generally have a high tolerance for that with  show like this. 

 

2 hours ago, Starfish35 said:

That said, Legends, except maybe for 1.03 ( the episode where he told Stein about Anna), has always kind of treated Anna as a throwaway plot point, and I think it's a little weird.  He's showed more concern/affection for Felicity and Kendra, then for the woman who was once almost his wife.  When they saved her from the Time Masters' assassin, he seemed more concerned about his relationship with Kendra, and in last year's crossover in his fantasy world, he was with Felicity rather than Anna (of course Oliver was with Laurel rather than Felicity so....).   

It's just kind of weird to me though.  I guess I just wish they'd delve more deeply into his relationship with Anna, and the effect losing her had on him.   Because right now it feels like, to me, that she's treated with a casualness that is a bit disconcerting.  At least for me.

After Anna's death Ray bought Queen Consolidated with the idea of ultimately finishing the ATOM suit and becoming a superhero so he could protect other people from enduring the same suffering that he endured.  He didn't sulk, abuse drugs and alcohol or build a dwarf-star alloy device to shrink Star City so he could stomp it to death like Godzilla rampaging through Tokyo.  He channeled his grief and anger into building something to honor her memory by making life better for other people.  Ray's optimism and slightly forced conviction that "everything turns out for the best" is fully congruent with how he handled Anna's death.

Yes, the idea that they had to take the Waverider right that second was a little stupid.  They really needed to drop in a bit of technobabble about why they had to go right that second when they were in a time machine.  They could have lived in 1988 and stayed to see the Berlin Wall fall next year and still made it to the birth with time to spare.

I think the thing with Anna is that Ray has managed to grieve and move on - and doesn't want to go through that again.  When he encountered her during the time assassin thing, Ray didn't want to reconnect with Anna because he didn't want to lose her all over again and he also didn't want to lose Kendra to a woman he knew was doomed to die.  As for being with Felicity, I think the Dominators' fantasy powers have certain limits.  Ray wouldn't have been able to accept Anna being alive because his grief was too deep.  He'd have known on some level that "Anna" was a fake.  The idea that he'd been able to move on with Felicity worked better because that was what he was on his way to doing before she basically dumped him because she loved Oliver.

Edited November 4, 2017 by johntfs

[Featherhat]

Ray said in 2.01 (I think) when he and Sara were arguing about Laurel that he had thought about going back and saving Anna but he knew it was against the rules. I do think she's something of a dropped plot point that they would have explored in further detail if they'd got the solo ATOM spin off instead, however I like this whole explanation: 

14 hours ago, johntfs said:

 

After Anna's death Ray bought Queen Consolidated with the idea of ultimately finishing the ATOM suit and becoming a superhero so he could protect other people from enduring the same suffering that he endured.  He didn't sulk, abuse drugs and alcohol or build a dwarf-star alloy device to shrink Star City so he could stomp it to death like Godzilla rampaging through Tokyo.  He channeled his grief and anger into building something to honor her memory by making life better for other people.  Ray's optimism and slightly forced conviction that "everything turns out for the best" is fully congruent with how he handled Anna's death.

Yes, the idea that they had to take the Waverider right that second was a little stupid.  They really needed to drop in a bit of technobabble about why they had to go right that second when they were in a time machine.  They could have lived in 1988 and stayed to see the Berlin Wall fall next year and still made it to the birth with time to spare.

I think the thing with Anna is that Ray has managed to grieve and move on - and doesn't want to go through that again.  When he encountered her during the time assassin thing, Ray didn't want to reconnect with Anna because he didn't want to lose her all over again and he also didn't want to lose Kendra to a woman he knew was doomed to die.  As for being with Felicity, I think the Dominators' fantasy powers have certain limits.  Ray wouldn't have been able to accept Anna being alive because his grief was too deep.  He'd have known on some level that "Anna" was a fake.  The idea that he'd been able to move on with Felicity worked better because that was what he was on his way to doing before she basically dumped him because she loved Oliver.

He has explained he prefers to look on the bright side and this is a man who chose to try to keep his spirits up by pretending a Soviet Gulag was a bit like Scout Camp, but was clearly terrified and in pain during/after being tortured there. It's just part of his coping mechanism. We've seem his life has not been rainbows and puppies but its what he does much like Oliver (or even Rip) often broods in his guilt and mission or versions of Sara like to work out or take off for places unknown, Ray tries to channel the positive, it helps that like Kara and Barry (well sometimes these days) he's got a naturally more positive outlook.

[kismet]

On 11/3/2017 at 5:05 PM, Starfish35 said:

It's just kind of weird to me though.  I guess I just wish they'd delve more deeply into his relationship with Anna, and the effect losing her had on him.   Because right now it feels like, to me, that she's treated with a casualness that is a bit disconcerting.  At least for me.

I think they forgot about Anna. Personally, I have always wanted them to pursue his history and relationship with Anna. It's weird to me that she is not really part of his narrative.

While I think they have written Ray well on this show, I do think their need to make him a LI all the time has been frustrating. They are overlooking the biggest wealth of character growth in his grief over Anna.

I actually think his optimism is a big part of his persona since childhood. But I also think that Ray hides behind his optimism and uses it as a crutch. It might be a coping mechanism, but sometimes I think he just uses it to hide.

[johntfs]

For my part I kind of prefer Ray not to have a specific love interest because that brings us ever closer to him getting together with

Spoiler

that one psychotic bitch who used his shrinking technology to kill a person by walking on her brain.

I like Ray a little too much to want to see him dealing with the epic shit-hurricane that arises out of that.

Edited November 5, 2017 by johntfs

[Miss Dee]

@johntfs, you're going to have to explain that part under the spoiler tag to me, because that rings no bells whatsoever (and I'm a spoilerphile for Legends).

[johntfs]

14 minutes ago, Miss Dee said:

@johntfs, you're going to have to explain that part under the spoiler tag to me, because that rings no bells whatsoever (and I'm a spoilerphile for Legends).

Comic spoiler for @Miss Dee

Spoiler

In the comics one of Ray Palmer's love interests and his eventual wife was a woman named Jean Loring though they broke up.  Jean Loring tried to get Ray back by "pretending" to endanger the loved ones of various superheroes and accidentally killed Sue Dibny, wife of the Elongated Man, Ralph Dibny by, yes, walking on her brain.  If you really want the whole story, just go here:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_Crisis_(DC_Comics)

Edited November 5, 2017 by johntfs

[Starfish35]

I don't think they're ever going to put Ray with Jean. Jean Loring does exist in the Arrowverse, but she's old enough to be Ray's mother, or mother-in-law.   She was played by Teryl Rothery (Stargate SG-1), and she was Moira Queen's lawyer in Arrow Season 2.  And in episode 1.03 of Legends, we found out that Ray's dead fiancée was Anna Loring.  So I think the comic canon part of Ray's romantic history has been covered.   

[johntfs]

2 hours ago, Starfish35 said:

I don't think they're ever going to put Ray with Jean. Jean Loring does exist in the Arrowverse, but she's old enough to be Ray's mother, or mother-in-law.   She was played by Teryl Rothery (Stargate SG-1), and she was Moira Queen's lawyer in Arrow Season 2.  And in episode 1.03 of Legends, we found out that Ray's dead fiancée was Anna Loring.  So I think the comic canon part of Ray's romantic history has been covered.   

Oh, thank Greg (Berlanti) for that.  Ever since they I learned that they were going to

Spoiler

introduce Ralph Dibny over on The Flash, I've been cringing in dread of that storyline, which has Ralph's wife, Sue getting killed (after being raped by Dr. Light) when Ray's S.O. uses his tech to walk around in Sue's brain.

Edited November 6, 2017 by johntfs

[Sakura12]

12 hours ago, johntfs said:

Oh, thank Greg (Berlanti) for that.  Ever since they I learned that they were going to

  Hide contents

introduce Ralph Dibny over on The Flash, I've been cringing in dread of that storyline, which has Ralph's wife, Sue getting killed (after being raped by Dr. Light) when Ray's S.O. uses his tech to walk around in Sue's brain.

Isn't Dr. Light

 

 a woman in the Flarrowverse? Linda Park, who I kept hoping they'd bring back for Wally and a friend for Iris. Especially since she's know about Team Flash. 

Edited November 6, 2017 by Sakura12

[johntfs]

1 hour ago, Sakura12 said:

Isn't Dr. Light

  Hide contents

 a woman in the Flarrowverse? Linda Park, who I kept hoping they'd bring back for Wally and a friend for Iris. Especially since she's know about Team Flash. 

She is, but I think that version of Dr. Light was a meta from Earth 2 that Zoom brought to Earth 1.  Meanwhile,

Spoiler

there's also a villainous Dr. Light whose name was Arthur Light.  He's actually been name-dropped in Season Two of Arrow when Caitlin and Cisco use some of his light-based technology to get away from Deathstroke and/or some Mirakuru henchmen (this is during episodes "The Scientist" and "Three Ghosts."

[MarkHB]

Folks, you don't need to be spoiler-tagging things just because you mentioned Dr. Light.  There's no indication that either of them will be showing up any time soon.

Also, I'm going to be putting up a poll for new thread titles for Nate, Zari and Ray.  Please feel free to add any suggestions here!

[tennisgurl]

I cant imagine the whole Ray/Jean/Dibney plot coming up here, both because Jean is an much older woman in this version, and has no connection to Ray, and because its a REALLY stupid story that needs to stay away from this whole universe. Ray does not need more girl trouble. And we do not need that madness in this already mad universe. 

I do with they brought Anna up a bit more, and his angst about losing her, but I have always found his constant optimism to be both real as well as a coping mechanism. He probably doesn't talk about Anna because he hates being unhappy and thinking about how much his life sucks sometimes, so he tries not to think on it. Or the writers just forget sometimes because she is more of a tragic backstory than an actual character. Or some of both. 

[MarkHB]

Yeah, I can't see them ever doing Identity Crisis; it's way too bleak a story for the Berlantiverse.  And, unless she's an angry ex, it doesn't seem that Ralph has found Sue yet over on Flash (and I am not sure why she would want him the way he is right now).

[Miss Dee]

Some thread titles to add after "Ray Palmer/The Atom:"

--The Eternal Optimist

--Boy All the Bad Boys Want

--Huggable Genius

[johntfs]

1 hour ago, Miss Dee said:

Some thread titles to add after "Ray Palmer/The Atom:"

--The Eternal Optimist

--Boy All the Bad Boys Want

--Huggable Genius

How about Dino Mite?

[kismet]

I'm still rooting for "Ray Palmer - the ATOM of Optimism". Somehow I think it's important to keep the ATOM in his title, since it is his official identity on the show and in the DC universe.

[Starfish35]

I really got nothing here.  :( *sigh*. Let's see.  Ray's a genius.  An Eagle Scout.  Mick calls him "haircut".  He believes in the power of positive thinking.  A.T.O.M. (in the Arrowverse) stands for Advanced Technology Operating Mechanism. 

When the suit first appeared in season three of Arrow, it was accused of being an Iron Man knockoff (by the fans - not within the show).  Ray discovered the shrinking powers by accident at the end of season three, but that wasn't revealed until season four.

i don't know.  I'm just trying to think of things that could be used to make up the name.

Edited November 8, 2017 by Starfish35

[CabotCove]

Quote

While I think they have written Ray well on this show, I do think their need to make him a LI all the time has been frustrating. 

Ray deserve to have love in his life IMO, i will never agree with this narrative that he works better as "asexual" or he is a bad romantic lead. 

just no more "women who want to be with other men" for him, breaking his heart, but a proper endgame-like romance. Ray/Zari?, it could work....

This show could use a main ship anyway, hate or love it, every other cwdctv show has one. Its a staple element for these shows. This show hasn't been successful in this area.

 

Quote

He probably doesn't talk about Anna because he hates being unhappy and thinking about how much his life sucks sometimes, so he tries not to think on it. Or the writers just forget sometimes because she is more of a tragic backstory than an actual character. Or some of both. 

Seems like it. I dont really mind, im all for Ray moving forward and finding new love. But wouldnt mind Ray/Anna flashbacks either...but its no big deal. 

Edited November 30, 2017 by HeroLeague

[Miss Dee]

I agree that Ray as a character is not inherently impossible to ship. I ship him with Mick all the time.

The writers have just kind of shoehorned him into relationships that didn't fit him well. Kendra was too low-key for Ray, and Felicity too similar. I think Zari and Amaya are too low-key as well. Ray needs someone fiery and passionate who'd adore the ever-lovin' shit out of him. If same-sex isn't your cup of tea, a Caitlyn reconciled with her inner Killer Frost would be a good candidate.

[johntfs]

49 minutes ago, Miss Dee said:

If same-sex isn't your cup of tea, a Caitlyn reconciled with her inner Killer Frost would be a good candidate.

I think Caitlin and Killer Frost are as reconciled as they're going to get.  Though that does open the possibility for a truly strange "love triangle."  I could see Ray being with Caitlin.  Meanwhile Mick is clearly into Killer Frost... It would take "leave a sock on the doorknob" to a whole 'nother level though.

[Mellowyellow]

oooh I am trying to find Ray a wife for a fic I'm writing so I'm glad to stumble in here since you're all dishing out good love interest alternatives. I kinda need to settle on a wife soon! Lily Stein having a baby with someone else threw a wrench in my plans!

I think can see Ray with 2 types actually. An equally chirpy person like Felicity where they will bounce around and be super cheerful together or someone stoic and grumpy but has a mega soft spot for him and finds everything he does absolutely adorable.

Depending on how they write Zari in the future I think she could be this person. She's not grumpy but I think she's low key and has this whole matter of fact attitude going whereas he's all sunshine and rainbows. If they play on this it could be super cute!

[kismet]

15 hours ago, HeroLeague said:

Ray deserve to have love in his life IMO, i will never agree with this narrative that he works better as "asexual" or he is a bad romantic lead. 

just no more "women who want to be with other men" for him, breaking his heart, but a proper endgame-like romance. Ray/Zari?, it could work....

This show could use a main ship anyway, hate or love it, every other cwdctv show has one. Its a staple element for these shows. This show hasn't been successful in this area.

I think Ray deserves love in his life. I just don't think I need to see it on my screen. I have seen him in so many failed romances, I can't take another round of RP, man to be passed aside again. So maybe he can find someone in the finale season?

One of the best things about LoT is that they don't have a romantic storyline dragging them down. And usually, I'm all for romantic storylines - but the Flarrowverse is horrible at writing them. Also realistically they all live on ship together that is horrible place for dating. I think if the show indicated that they only time travelled part of the time, I could see advocating for a long term relationship. But right now I just don't feel a permanent or even semi-permanent relationship fits the show's narrative.

[CabotCove]

Quote

I think Ray deserves love in his life. I just don't think I need to see it on my screen. I have seen him in so many failed romances, I can't take another round of RP, man to be passed aside again. So maybe he can find someone in the finale season?

Lol, that fair enough, kismet.

[legaleagle53]

Seeing Ray do his impression of Beebo (while gagging on Beebo's insides) made me think of how someone in a recent thread discussion described Ray as "cute and fluffy."  "Fluffy" is not a word I would associate with any man, much less Ray, but I can't help thinking that it's the perfect description of him.

I mean, seriously, who wouldn't want to take Ray and "call him 'George' and hug him and pet him and squeeze him and love him"?*

*Well, OK, maybe not the "call him 'George' part! ;-)

[Miss Dee]

3 minutes ago, legaleagle53 said:

Seeing Ray do his impression of Beebo (while gagging on Beebo's insides) made me think of how someone in a recent thread discussion described Ray as "cute and fluffy."  "Fluffy" is not a word I would associate with any man, much less Ray, but I can't help thinking that it's the perfect description of him.

I mean, seriously, who wouldn't want to take Ray and "call him 'George' and hug him and pet him and squeeze him and love him"?*

*Well, OK, maybe not the "call him 'George' part! ;-)

My opinion on who aboard the Waverider should and would want to do that is well-documented, @legaleagle53. ?

But knowing the show is never going that route: it's amazing that Ray is such a loveable character and yet just about all the romances he has in the Arrowverse has fizzled in terms of chemistry. There are women and men out there who love these huggable teddy bears of men, people! This shouldn't be so hard!

And I'm not feeling it with any of Sara, Amaya or Zari either, so I don't know what the issue is. But I honestly don't think it's Routh either.

[legaleagle53]

1 hour ago, Miss Dee said:

There are women and men out there who love these huggable teddy bears of men, people! This shouldn't be so hard!

What was it that one of the women said about Beebo being "so damn huggable"?  That's Ray in a nutshell!  :)

Edited December 10, 2017 by legaleagle53