Ray Palmer: The ATOM

[scarynikki12]

This is your Ray Palmer thread.  Feel free to come up with a better title and we'll make the necessary changes.

 

As posted in the Rip Hunter and Hawkgirl threads, feel free to discuss what we already know about the character from the show(s) but keep speculation based on the comic counterpart in the Legends: Comics Vs Show thread.

 

Enjoy!

[CabotCove]

If the trailer is a sign, I like that Ray/Atom will be one of the major characters and focus of the show.  A lead among leads. And why wouldnt he, I think he is a cool, interesting character, lots of story to offer, and with a good actor.  Brandon/Ray/Atom was easily the best part of a shitty Arrow season 3 for me. Im glad he got out of that craphole to be a lead in a new project, one that looks really promising so far. One that looks like could have a  future. 

x

That was super, I wasnt sure how a tiny atom was going to work in live action but they did it. 

Edited May 18, 2015 by Conell

[Eegah]

I feel kind of sorry for Brandon Routh, as from what I understand the original plan was for him to headline an Atom-centered spinoff, but then people reacted so badly to Sara's death that she was brought back as part of it, and it blew up from there into a full team show.

 

I also seriously wonder if the plan all along was to build up to him being the actual Atom in this show, or they thought they could actually get away with making him an Iron Man knockoff until the audience reactions came in.

[Sakura12]

I feel sorry for him too, but I think it was more they wanted to see The Atom show but the network wasn't biting because of the lukewarm reaction to his character on Arrow. The EP's still wanting to do a spin off needed another idea. They brought back Sara and added others to make a team up show then the network was behind them. 

 

It does make sense being that most talked about character after the announcement wasn't The Atom, it was who is Caity Lotz playing, followed by excitement for the new mystery characters. The Atom barely get a sentence explaining him. Even now most of the articles I see are still about Sara.

 

I don't have much of an opinion on Ray, I've only seen him in his one episode on the Flash.  Hopefully he can do more to make himself noticed on the team up show. 

[FurryFury]

I've also only seen him on The Flash and he didn't get to do much there. However, I'm glad that there is no Atom TV show. Way too many dude-focused comic book shows already. At least as it is, even if guys still outnumber girls 5 (or maybe 6, I'm still not sure Heatwave's going to be a big part of it) to 2, it's still ensemble and there's the potential to see more of Sara and Hawkgirl (especially if Sara continues to be as popular as she is).

[calliope1975]

I feel kind of sorry for Brandon Routh, as from what I understand the original plan was for him to headline an Atom-centered spinoff, but then people reacted so badly to Sara's death that she was brought back as part of it, and it blew up from there into a full team show.

 

I also seriously wonder if the plan all along was to build up to him being the actual Atom in this show, or they thought they could actually get away with making him an Iron Man knockoff until the audience reactions came in.

 

I also believe the writers wanted Blue Beetle but were told they were getting the Atom instead. So they just plugged in the character of BB into Atom thus beginning the disconnect with the character. As Arrow progressed, I skipped most of Ray's scenes because I couldn't stand him. However, I'm just going to go into LoT with an open mind about Ray, because I'm excited about the other characters. 

[CabotCove]

However, I'm glad that there is no Atom TV show.Way too many dude-focused comic book shows already.

 

 

Yeah I think thats one of the reason why they didnt go with another male lead show, and there was likely some "pressure" from CBS doing Supergirl.  They had to do something female centric, but they also had to do something with Atom/Firestorm. So therefore an ensemble  was born IMO. 

No I dont believe that they stopped wanting to do an Atom show because of the reaction Ray got, (which was mostly shipper induced hate anyway) or that they didnt believe he could carry a show.  if they have no such faith,  why are they making him a big player in this ensemble show or even have him at all. Atom looks to be front and center and back. 

 

 

I feel sorry for him too, but I think it was more they wanted to see The Atom show but the network wasn't biting because of the lukewarm reaction to his character on Arrow. The EP's still wanting to do a spin off needed another idea. They brought back Sara and added others to make a team up show then the network was behind them.

 

Evidence to these claims? If CW really believe that I think they are really stupid, how can you test an audience for something thats not really happened (Atom show), release a trailer/pilot first then you can talk. Even Barry/Flash got some lukewarm reactions too,, though his episodes on Arrow did well he  didn't bring mega ratings until his own show started, now The Flash is the top  CW rated show by far. The audience cant love what they dont know or have not seen. DC's Legend (this show) wasn't getting much traffic either until they released the trailer. 

I for one can take or leave Sara, aka "White Canary" or whatever, she is not the main attraction to this show for me  I respect that she is popular (right now) but it doesnt necessarily mean it will always be like that. There is still Rip, Hawkgirl, Jay who we have yet to see what they are about , and Atom's  backstory is unknown and likely a new firestorm is on the cards. The show is yet to begin. JMO

Edited May 18, 2015 by Conell

[Starfish35]

I'm not sure it was all shipper induced hate. I don't ship Olicity, but I had issues with him. I didn't like the way he came off as some sort of super-Oliver, and the whole dress and jewels thing in 307 was just creepy. And I just didn't like the way he and Felicity were together - I think nowhere did it bother me more than on Flash "All Star Teamup", with Felicity hanging on his arm and the cringeworthy oversharing about their sexlife.

But once they had him start interacting with characters other than Felicity, I started enjoying him quite a lot. I enjoyed the quick friendship between him and Cisco, and he and Oliver were absolutely hilarious teaming up together in Broken Arrow. That's what I'm hoping to see more of in LoT - Ray as enthusiastic goofy genius scientist, rather than salmon-ladder climbing genius businessman. I love that clip from the trailer with him and Sara and Dr Stein, and I'm really looking forward to seeing him with the rest of the team. He and Cold might be comedy gold - goofy enthusiasm paired with snarky sarcasm.

[Sakura12]

What experience does Ray to even be the leader? Sara would be better choice for Field Leader since she has the actual experience and training. Ray's a rich dude with tech suit. He's like Iron Man in more ways than one. He provides the money and the tech. 

[FurryFury]

Evidence to these claims? If CW really believe that I think they are really stupid, how can you test an audience for something thats not really happened (Atom show), release a trailer/pilot first then you can talk. Even Barry/Flash got some lukewarm reactions too,

 

That's not true. Barry got very good reaction from basically all corners of the fandom. Even from Olicity shippers because the writing wisely made it clear that he had unrequited love for then-unnamed Iris (oh how I wish this storyline never existed...) With Ray, they clearly didn't expect the Die For Our Ship to be in full force (Sara managed to avoid the brunt of it by being already popular, so she only got the "Arrow has become a Sara Lance show" whining instead of outright hate). Still, the point is that Barry was received way better, it's a fact. There was a lot of hope for The Flash being successful simply because most found GG very likable. With Ray, I see that the majority are willing to give him a chance, but most buzz/enthusiasm for the new show seem to be connected to Sara, Stein and time travel aspect, plus the team-up of different heroes. I do think he will be front and center, because the target demo for the show will be the same as for Arrow/The Flash (M18-34), and he may very well prove to be popular - but right now, he isn't that much of a draw, imho.

Edited May 18, 2015 by FurryFury

[Sakura12]

Barry was hugely popular since they started out saying that they were going to make a back door pilot for the Flash on Arrow. The two Flash eps of Arrow aired, then it was announced that they were going to go straight to shooting a pilot for The Flash and skipped the more Arrow eps. 

 

That didn't happen with The Atom. They talked a lot about his spin off in the beginning, then it died down when Arrow started airing. Then it suddenly changed into a Team Up show. That to me shows that the Network didn't get the response they wanted from the Atom. It wasn't like the Flash so they were not going to commit to series about him. Of course they never know how a show will do until airs, but there are tons of shows that don't get on the air because the Network doesn't think it will do well. They also put shows on the air that don't do well. But they are the ones that decide whether or not to give a show a chance. 

 

The Atom is also not as well known a super hero like the Flash is. I've never heard of the Atom until this show, while I've known about the Flash for years and I'm not a big comic book reader. 

 

I haven't seen that much of Ray to form an opinion, however his Flash episode didn't really leave an impression on me. I'm willing to give him a chance but he's the not big draw of the show for me. For me it's Sara, followed by Hawkgirl, Rip Hunter and Vandal Savage. Atom is just there. I'll see what he does when the show starts. Also I'm not an Olicity shipper and never have been an Olicity shipper. I don't really care what happens with them. 

Edited May 18, 2015 by Sakura12

[nksarmi]

I don't feel sorry for Brandon, he's about to be part of what looks to be a really cool show that may or may not go on for several seasons.  I would think his Ray/ATOM character is already be slated to be more popular than his Superman was so that should guarantee he gets future work at Comic Cons and such.  Plus, with it only being 13 episodes - the show isn't going to be so demanding that he can't still do movies.  And finally, he's probably going to be one of the bigger actors on the show - even if he isn't THE STAR - this is still going to be a good opportunity for him.  And frankly, if longevity matters - I think this show has a better chance to last than one based solely on the ATOM.

[quarks]

 

 

Evidence to these claims? If CW really believe that I think they are really stupid, how can you test an audience for something thats not really happened (Atom show), release a trailer/pilot first then you can talk.

 

 

How can you test an audience? Well, you can pair the new character up with a fan favorite in several scenes and the protagonist in another couple of scenes, and see how audiences react.

 

Which is exactly what Arrow did. Unfortunately for Ray Palmer, this happened on an episode that also included Oliver and Felicity's first date and kiss and Sara's death, which got a lot more attention - for that matter, Sara's death is still getting more attention and discussion months later, even with her coming back. For what it's worth, I think the fan response to Sara's death caught the showrunners and the network off guard, but regardless, that was the most talked about part of Ray's first appearance, not Ray himself.

 

And, as the last episode of Arrow just demonstrated, that indifference is still around.  Ray was the major hero of that episode - he created the tech that stopped the virus and saved the city. And he had some great lines. And he (apparently) blew up.  And what did fans react to?  Barry, Ra's, Oliver, Felicity wearing the suit, Oliver and Felicity, Thea, Diggle, Nyssa and to a much lesser extent Laurel. There's more gifs of Laurel knocking down the LoA guy than of anything Ray did.

 

I don't think Ray's been a particularly hated character, one or two episodes aside. He got a lot of fan criticism for "Draw Back Your Bow," and some in "The Climb," where he came off as creepy to some viewers, and in "Suicidal Tendencies," where he attacked Oliver and Roy, but a few carpers (including me, to be fair) that's been about it.  Fans seemed to like him - or just didn't say anything - in other episodes.  Was introducing him as a potential romantic rival the brightest idea the CW has had? Probably not.  But every character on Arrow has haters, so Ray's not exactly unusual in this regard. It's more that fans aren't reacting much at all, and I think that's what the CW was reacting to. 

 

All this said, the last few episodes of Arrow, Ray's appearance on Flash, and the trailer all suggest that the writers have listened to the (kinda limited) fan criticism and are working to playing towards Routh's strengths - as more of the eager scientist than the billionaire taking over everything. His scenes with Cisco have been really fun and he played very well with straight guy Amell. This bodes well for his interactions with Sara and Rip Hunter. As long as he's not isolated on his own little storyline (which I don't think was helpful on Arrow) and gets to have fun in this role, I have hopes.

[CabotCove]

I haven't seen that much of Ray to form an opinion, however his Flash episode didn't really leave an impression on me. I'm willing to give him a chance but he's the not big draw of the show for me. For me it's Sara, followed by Hawkgirl, Rip Hunter and Vandal Savage. Atom is just there. I'll see what he does when the show starts. Also I'm not an Olicity shipper and never have been an Olicity shipper. I don't really care what happens with them.

 

Well then there is something for everyone, its going to be an ensemble show, every character will get to have their time in the spotlight, hopefully. Fans can decide who and what they want to focus on, its a big cast not everyone is going to love everyone & everything. But in the end they will all be important pieces that make the series.  

I know,  I dont say all Ray haters were Olicity shippers, just that a significant majority were. I realize there is a significant number of  non shippers who do not to like him or care for the character and thats OK.   There is nothing wrong with saying I hate this, I dislike this IMO.  But shipper hate is ridiculous, because some people pretend that they hate him for some imagined/invented reasons that is not ship hate. Its the lies that makes me dislike shipper hate, not the hating a character because of a ship.

 

It can be a valid reason on its own, so why cant they not just be honest about it.  Most shipper hate is extreme and cruel,  it is not set to be constructive criticism, it is set to destroy a character and take them out as a competition. Thats why I don't  focus on non shippers hate, usually the hate is mild and constructive, of course because there are no other hidden motives and stakes. So yeah I hope the writers took those valid & constructive complains in and will use it to make the Ray character even better. So if you fall under this group, thumbs up. 

Its gonna take Ray some time to recover from how his name got tainted with this shipper gate, but lies don't last forever, eventually I believe he will fly even. higher. 

 

And frankly, if longevity matters - I think this show has a better chance to last than one based solely on the ATOM.

 

 

Yeah more heroes, more insurance, and he can get to do movies/guest spots when he isnt working.  I dont think Brandon came into Atom expecting his own show, he could have walked away with nothing after his stint on Arrow  was over but he is now set to lead a new project L.O.T with other cast, I would say thats a win for him Imo. His last  tv project (Partners) was an after thought for the network and prematurely cancelled but this project is set for success & longevity, it has the network's backing, that cant be a be a be a bad place to be. 

 

How can you test an audience? Well, you can pair the new character up with a fan favorite in several scenes and the protagonist in another couple of scenes, and see how audiences react.

 

Yeah because it worked so well for Sara and Barry, prior to Ray, those two got the shipper hate gate too. But yet the showrunners kept having faith in them, because they realized what was up. Pairing a character  romantically with Felicity (or Oliver) can help them to get noticed initially but eventually its bittersweet, and then just plain sour. The (majority of) Olicity fandom will make sure they drag those characters down and ruin their reputation all over the internet. No offense, but its true for the general fandom. Therefore I think the showrunners  by now are  prepared for a mixed reaction in such circumstances. It hasnt stopped them from having faith and using Sara, Ray, Barry in new projects, yeah likely their test drive results were a passmark despite being thrown in a lion den's situation.

 

I dont believe its the most effective way to test drive new characters, It is mostly for the benefit of Felicity/Oliver/Olicity Imo. I think the Arrow writers love this strategy so well because pairing a newbie with Felicity (or Oliver) is a symbiotic relationship that has its pros and cons,  more cons for a new character and pros for Felicity/Oliver/Olicity. The newbie can always get justice in a new show later. The know that most of the shipper hate will disappear once the character is taken out of the heated situation anyway but its still really cruel to add such unecessary burden on  new characters and the new creative team who will be writing for them. They taint their clean records then hope they can rise above it later, I hope Atom/Ray will be lucky enough  to recover fully and quickly. 

And Smash. 

Edited May 19, 2015 by Conell

[Delphi]

I think your argument is slightly flawed. For example, the pairing of Barry with Felicity did work well for the most part, so much that they used it several times on the Flash already. Barry and Grant were so positively received that they gave a kid a show to carry even though Grant was, in my humble opinion, in no way ready as an actor for such a task.

As for Sara, I can say that no it didn't work. I have always loved Sara even as an olicity fan. And I didn't realize that there was criticism of her. Regardless, they still killed her. And clearly that caused a reaction across the board. Make no mistake, they were not planning on bringing Sara back to life. According to Caity she was done with this. The fans and critics were in such a rage that they made the choice to bring her back and had to struggle to find a way to do that and what to call her. Even though I like Ray, I seriously doubt that people would bat an eye if they simply killed him off in the finale. Or that they'd find a way to bring him back.

I agree that it's not the best to introduce new characters as romantic foils to fan favorite couples but that seems to be what they like to do. I also never considered Sara and Oliver a couple (I doubt Sara did either), but I don't speak for everyone.

Ray could have been very well received in fact if they didn't use him as a foil for Olicity. Same as if they had integrated him into the team, where's it's already been shown (in fact I'm sure the flash crossover served as another test to see how people received him).

All that being said, I like what I saw of him in the trailer. I'm sure Brandon will do great which is good, he seems like a super nice guy. And while I think he could carry a show I don't think the network thought that Ray (not Brandon) as a character we know now could.

[FurryFury]

Ray was the major hero of that episode - he created the tech that stopped the virus and saved the city. And he had some great lines. And he (apparently) blew up.

 

He blew up in Arrow's finale? Wow, this is the first time I'm hearing this. Everybody was talking about Olicity, Nyssa, Malcolm, Thea, well, everybody except Ray. I've heard he helped to stop the virus and gave Felicity his suit, but not about the blowing up bit.

[Sakura12]

That's why in the trailer Sara and Stein said "so you weren't dead, just small" or something like that.

[FurryFury]

I thought it was a reference to a future storyline, heh. So do Arrow characters think he's dead? 

[Sakura12]

I don't think they know about him yet. It'll probably be addressed in season 4.

[HighwayFlower]

I didn't like Ray at first, but he grew on me as a lovable dork. Keep him that way, and I think he will be much better received on this new show. Also, keep him scruffy and in flannels please! Yum!

[tarotx]

Yes Ray is more likable as a beautiful smart dork. He's best slightly out of place with the Sociey He works in. Early on Ray was an annoying "perfect" man who came off as a "single white female" OliverLite though projected as superOliver...

I am a huge Sara fan (of the actress and character rather her love interest was Oliver or Nyssa) So my early dislike of Ray had nothing to do with Olicity (though I like that pairing well enough). I also adore Barry and Felicity.

I guess my problem could be more centered around I'm a huge Oliver fan. But I hope the days of Ray being Oliverlite are over. Ray can still be the male lead in a cute dorky persona.

Edited May 21, 2015 by tarotx

[Sakura12]

They also probably should've put the Atom symbol on him somewhere so he would look a little less Iron Man lite. (maybe not on his head, but the chest area kind of like the Flash could've worked). I would hope they would change his suit but with the money they spent on that one and the no double heavy special effects budget for this show, we'll be stuck with the Iron Man suit. 

Edited May 19, 2015 by Sakura12

[tarotx]

I think the suit looks cute in a mini version. I hope they use it that way a lot.

[MarkHB]

They also probably should've put the Atom symbol on him somewhere so he would look a little less Iron Man lite. (maybe not on his head, but the chest area kind of like the Flash could've worked). I would hope they would change his suit but with the money they spent on that one and the no double heavy special effects budget for this show, we'll be stuck with the Iron Man suit. 

 

They did, on his forehead where it is on the classic character, but it's easy to miss:

 

Notice that the red on the chest forms a stylized "A" as well.

 

ITA on the shrinking... it's his signature power after all (in fact he doesn't have all the other Iron Man-type stuff in the comics).

 

For those who are interested, in the comics Ray Palmer found a meteorite made of white dwarf material, and was able to use it to create a lens that would increase his molecular density as he needed it to... so his mass stayed the same (the same idea they're using in Ant Man, but the Silver Age Atom predated Marvel's hero).  I know the TV version at least is using a white dwarf fragment somehow.

[Sakura12]

I didn't even notice that. I guess I was distracted by the fact that he looked like a cross between Iron Man and Tron. 

 

The shrinking should be fun if they use it right and can afford to use it right. They should also keep his dorky persona and not the 50 Shades persona. It will be more fun to see his dorky happy self interact with Sara's tortured persona and Captain Cold's pragmatism. 

[Delphi]

I think without the armour the costume actually looks a million times better. Sleek and functional, a bit more superheroey than the realism that the other costumes take but not in a bad way. I think they should definitely try to find a way to lessen the bulky black plastic and maybe just do some armour plating on the abs abd biceps and there wouldn't be nearly as many comparisons.

[CabotCove]

I think your argument is slightly flawed. For example, the pairing of Barry with Felicity did work well for the most part, so much that they used it several times on the Flash already. Barry and Grant were so positively received that they gave a kid a show to carry even though Grant was, in my humble opinion, in no way ready as an actor for such a task.

 From my personal observation, it was not all rosy in fandom when Felicity/Barry happened, it was just 2 episodes "luckily" for all involved. I know what I saw and Im sticking with it. Each to their own there. 

 

And, as the last episode of Arrow just demonstrated, that indifference is still around.

It's more that fans aren't reacting much at all, and I think that's what the CW was reacting to.

 

 

OK I think I get where you are coming from there. If they expected him to do a Flash that would not have been fair though , Atom is a small hero (no pun) , he is not that well known in comic circles let alone in the mainstream audience. Naturally people should be like who is this guy, Ray/Atom who? I think they made the mistake of not doing some centric episodes with him in the show, like one that shows his background or focus mostly on him driving his own storylines. 

 

Ray was the major hero of that episode - he created the tech that stopped the virus and saved the city. And he had some great lines. And he (apparently) blew up.

 

 

He was not the main A story nor was it his centric episode though. Oliver still got to kill the big bad, get a wedding and a vacation. They never did a true Ray/Atom centric episodes to my recollection, not like the way they did Barry/Sara ones. I think A real Ray/Atom centric episode would have gone a long way, maybe. Not too late though, I hope they do a Ray centric/back story in the first few episodes of this show.

 

I think the suit looks cute in a mini version. I hope they use it that way a lot.

 

Yeah I like the mini version of the suit more, I think its because it doesnt look so bulky and has a lighter blue color in that version. 

 

Notice that the red on the chest forms a stylized "A" as well.

 

Cool, thanks. I totally missed that. 

Edited May 19, 2015 by Conell

[MarkHB]

Something else occurred to me when I was looking at Ray Palmer's Wikipedia page: in his comics origin story, when he was first working with the white dwarf fragment to get things to shrink, they weren't stable and kept exploding.  In fact, when he was forced to use it on himself he thought it was his final act and that he would explode as well (he turned out to be a special snowflake).  So that explosion at the end of "My Name is Oliver Queen"?  Total Easter egg.

[Starfish35]

Huh. I never noticed the red A before. :)

[Bats27]

"Before, I was merely discount Iron Man.  But now, I am truly The Atom."

 

The problem with Ray Palmer on Arrow is that they never were able to really integrate him into the show in a consistent/interesting way.  So he was either gone for long stretches, or he was to "kind of there."  He felt really disconnected from everything else that was going on.  And the "love triangle" stuff between him, Oliver, and Felicity certainly didn't help matters.

[BkWurm1]

I agree that they short changed him on a Ray Centric episode, really the only one that was Ray centric had him behaving like a mysoginistic ass and he electrocuted Roy. After that episode for the first time I HATED him and I had been his staunch defender the whole time. I got past the hate by deciding that he too was suffering from OOC plot before character writing but his only real centric episode did him no favors.

I still think his character was misunderstood early on and still think the stalker label (on the personal level) is unjustified but they could have done so much better with his character. Not only with meshing him with the broader cast much earlier on but give us more than a couple throwaway lines about Anna.

Initially we were told he would get some flashbacks to flesh out his story. Someone decided they were unneeded but they made a mistake there.

I think they also were foolish about trying to keep his true intentions shrouded in mystery in a manner that had he no been a preordained hero, most TV viewers would have been sure they were positioning him as a bad guy. (Which IMO wrongly shaded how his actions were judged). Trying to be mysterious about him was a waste of everyone's time. Those who knew what was coming were annoyed and those that didn't were probably felt misled.

That said, I have great expectations for him in LoT. BR has a lovely comedic flare but also a natural sincerity about him. Once we are allowed to see the world from his standpoint (minus OOC asshat stuff) I think the audience will find him very sympathetic and human.

His finance died in the Mirikuru riots. He now will have access to time travel. Think of the conflict right there. Can he save her? Should he? Would he dare even if he's told he shouldn't? Lots to mine emotionally from his story. Maybe they decided to save any Anna flashbacks for LoT.

Anyway, looking forward to both Ray in Early season 4 of Arrow and when he goes to LoT.

Edited May 21, 2015 by BkWurm1

[quarks]

Actually, Arrow did give us a Ray-centric episode - 19, "Broken Arrow."  Ray had more screentime in this episode than Barry Allen did in either of his two episodes. He got to interact with other Arrow characters (which helped tremendously), be sweet and funny, and save the girl with his suit.  It was arguably his best appearance of the entire year.  Interestingly enough, even though Ray and Felicity were together during that entire episode, and even had a couple of PDA moments in front of Oliver, over on the Arrow forum Olicity shippers are naming this episode as one of the best of season three. 

 

That reaction from shippers is one reason why I'm reluctant to categorize all criticism/hatred directed at Ray as merely "shipper hate."  It's also another example of the general indifference that I've been talking about - that was Ray's big episode, and most fans ended up talking about Roy.

 

But that episode is also why I'm hoping that, given the chance to interact with a larger cast, and just have pure fun with it - as Routh clearly did in a couple of scenes in that episode - Ray could end up being really fun.  Especially if they just let him be funny - his best scenes on Arrow were the comedic ones. 

[BkWurm1]

Actually, Arrow did give us a Ray-centric episode - 19, "Broken Arrow."  Ray had more screentime in this episode than Barry Allen did in either of his two episodes. He got to interact with other Arrow characters (which helped tremendously), be sweet and funny, and save the girl with his suit.  It was arguably his best appearance of the entire year.

 

Ray was front and center but I'd hesitate to call it a Ray centric episode because while Ray was there, the episode was a heavy emotional episode for Oliver and Roy, we followed their journey's with only a brief moment for Ray to find his inner hero to deliver a final volley of punches.  The Barry episodes weren't really Barry centric IMO either.  They introduced and featured him, but the story telling remained from Oliver or Felicity's viewpoint for the most point. 

 

When I think Ray centric, I'm comparing episodes to things like The Secret Life of Felicity Smoak or Laurel's Canaries.  Every episode is also an ensemble piece so it's not cut and dried but I will say if Ray had been used in more episodes like he was in Public Enemies, I think there would be a lot more enthusiastic feelings about for him. 

Edited May 21, 2015 by BkWurm1

[kismet]

I think there are some valid criticisms of Ray Palmer's character on Arrow for most of s3 that can be classified as legit & more than just shipper hate. His characted did get better in the last few episodes when they started to actually integrate him into the stories & removed him from Palmer Island.

 

I agree that they short changed him on a Ray Centric episode, really the only one that was Ray centric had him behaving like a mysoginistic ass and he electrocuted Roy. After that episode for the first time I HATED him and I had been his staunch defender the whole time. I got past the hate by deciding that he too was suffering from OOC plot before character writing but his only real centric episode did him no favors.

I still think his character was misunderstood early on and still think the stalker label (on the personal level) is unjustified but they could have done so much better with his character. Not only with meshing him with the broader cast much earlier on but give us more than a couple throwaway lines about Anna.

Initially we were told he would get some flashbacks to flesh out his story. Someone decided they were unneeded but they made a mistake there.

I think they also were foolish about trying to keep his true intentions shrouded in mystery in a manner that had he no been a preordained hero, most TV viewers would have been sure they were positioning him as a bad guy. (Which IMO wrongly shaded how his actions were judged). Trying to be mysterious about him was a waste of everyone's time. Those who knew what was coming were annoyed and those that didn't were probably felt misled.

That said, I have great expectations for him in LoT. BR has a lovely comedic flare but also a natural sincerity about him. Once we are allowed to see the world from his standpoint (minus OOC asshat stuff) I think the audience will find him very sympathetic and human.

His finance died in the Mirikuru riots. He now will have access to time travel. Think of the conflict right there. Can he save her? Should he? Would he dare even if he's told he shouldn't? Lots to mine emotionally from his story. Maybe they decided to save any Anna flashbacks for LoT.

Anyway, looking forward to both Ray in Early season 4 of Arrow and when he goes to LoT.

Agree with most of the above quote. I did not like him until episode 19. He was just hard to take in the earlier episodes. I did not like his personality. I did not like the way he treated Felicity. Their chemistry was just not working for me. Their characters were almost too similar that I did not feel that friction or attraction that I usually expect in romantic pairings. The writers were just not writing him as someone I would like or want to be friends with, he certainly was not someone I would want myself or friends to date. I truly thought he was being written as a possible appears good but is really a bad guy, even though I knew that was not possible from what the comics/spin-off rumors suggested.

 

I have no idea what their big plan was in how they wrote him for the earlier 18 or so episodes, but it was not as successful as I think it might have been if they had written more to the RP they are now writing. He has an adorkable quality that needs to be well written, otherwise it can come off all wrong which is what I think happened for a lot of his Arrow run. The writers really did a disjustice to his character for the sake of their plots & dumb strategies like love triangles. I do agree he makes a better enthusiatic overly eager scientist than a billionaire ego maniac who wants what he wants, will not respect normal boundaries to get what he wants & will just use money to fix everything. That being said, I think they might have taken some of the criticisms and worked on them, even if they publically deny any criticisms.

 

I have higher hopes for RP on LoT because I think he works better in a group, esp when he has better foils to play off of like Sara & Stein. Also perhaps BR is finding a way to make the material work for him now. Also the writers & showrunners can focus on his character & story, which I do not think was a priority on Arrow. For example, his motivation in the first part of the season revolved around his fiance, by the 2nd part it was all about Felicity. That type of twisting for plot purposes does not help his character.

[CabotCove]

Actually, Arrow did give us a Ray-centric episode - 19, "Broken Arrow."  Ray had more screentime in this episode than Barry Allen did in either of his two episodes.

 

Yeah I can very tell from the title.

Nope, that didnt seem like his centric episode TO ME. Different strokes.  

 

I think there are some valid criticisms of Ray Palmer's character on Arrow for most of s3 that can be classified as legit & more than just shipper hate. His characted did get better in the last few episodes when they started to actually integrate him into the stories & removed him from Palmer Island.

 

The fact that he started getting good reviews from Olicity fans mostly, coincidentally in the episode leading to his break up with Felicity and post that break up, doesnt do much dispel that it wasn't  SHIPPING BIAS Imo.  Maybe he truly got "better" but the timing of such opinions doesn't exactly help, Its too much of a coincidence to me. Sorry I don't believe it, I don't believe MOST of Ray hate from shippers was justified or valid. I dont believe it wasnt mostly fueled by SHIPPING. I  would be OK with that reason but I DO believe most Olicity shippers mostly LIE why they so extremely hate him, so no I have zero tolerance nor time for that, anymore. Each to their own on this topic.

 

The little faith/trust/value I had for the general Olicity fandom is no more, Im disengaging from now on. #NotAllOlicityFans of course but a good majority have given me good reasons not too IMO, Im closing that door with the exception of engaging a few rare, different individual members of this fandom. Thanks all, for bothering to reply  to my posts but I dont wish to engage most Olicity fandom mindsets/views anymore, I feel I should be polite enough to say I wont be going further with these discussions, not replying and why.  I came on this board for a fresh start and wanting something different, too early for that but Im holding hope it could be "that place" in the future. Likewise/vice versa, people have the right not to engage me If they dont want to and think I'm just an Olicity hater with no justified reasons ( IMO I do have) . I believe its a "free for all " forum, we will hopefully coexists. 

 

I hope Ray/Brandon/Atom will be in a much healthier environment with .L.O.T and its fandom, hopefully much fairer, nicer and logical show/fandom, IMHO the Arrow-Olicity show/fandom has become so toxic and corrupt, feel its not pleasant for most actors/fans. I think Im done here for a while until i can see more new perspectives, new blood and more Ray positivity, respecting & fairness on this board. NO OFFENSE intended to anyone, you are free to be on this forum and air your views. Im the one who feels Im not in the right place at the moment or at the right time.  I didnt leave the Arrow board, only to be stuck in the same situation.  That is my hope and wish for the LOT show, forum and fandom when the show starts, a more inclusive, fairer and diverse place. I hopefully hope to be back soon and fan the Ray!!. 

 

BTW, how about Title: RAY PALMER: THE ATOM LIVES, courtesy of science bro CISCO RAMON and of course he survived the explosion, so the Atom is very alive and well. For now? at least until something better comes up when show starts. 

Edited May 24, 2015 by Conell

[Lokiberry]

Ray got in the middle of a fandom favorite ship; of course that was going to happen. Of course it was. It's on the producers for putting him in that situation because a) they were too dumb to realize what was obviously going to happen, or b) didn't think the shipper hate would matter because everyone else would be bowled over by their cheap Iron Man knockoff. When the audience didn't fawn all over him, they blamed the shippers instead of acknowledging their own writing issues, something they're doing a lot of recently.

 

And, you know what? I'm sick of it. I've had enough of these male producers blaming mostly female fans for everything that goes wrong. People don't love Iron Ray? It's the shippers fault. Some company produces a creepy little black canary figurine wearing Sara's costume, and it get's pointed out? Shippers fault. They need to put on their big boy panties and deal with the problems they've created.

[nksarmi]

Connel - What I would say about Ray hate is that while it seems stronger among those who ship olicity - it was not isolated.  I know those who disliked Ray because he didn't "belong" on Arrow and "by the way, when is Arrow going to start fighting bad guys again" kind of deal.

 

But I think the thing about Ray "getting better" when he and Felicity broke up wasn't suspect timing - I think it was the writers finally using BR well and letting him play with the other kids. SA and BR play so well off each other, I am really hoping we get a little more of that before LoT gets into full swing and then I can't wait to see him interact with Stein, Sara, Cold, etc...

 

BR getting to play with the others gave Roy one of his best lines of the season "Ray built a power suit, cool!".....pause for Oliver face of exasperation...."And also extremely reckless."  Heck, BR gave Oliver one of his only jokes of the season with the "Are you sure you two aren't related" line to Felicity.

 

And Ray with Cisco is comedy gold!

 

I agree with everyone who says that the writers made a HUGE mistake in not wrapping Ray into the overall storyline much, much earlier in the season.  So olicity ship or not, when Ray got to play with the other kids - he did in fact get better.

[HighwayFlower]

I like Olicity, but I'm not a shipper. I started liking Ray when they let him be a dork. He never fit the "perfect" billionaire business man they started him out as. Once they let be a bit of a doofus, that's when the character started to work for me.

[kismet]

I've been given this some thought after reading some of the posts here & for me personally I have decided that the writers weren't really writing for the character RP until Arrow 319. Before that they were writing him as a plot contrivance or pawn they moved around on their gameboard to nowhere that was Arrow S3. Every character seemed to get stuck on the writer's merry-go-round of plot for most of the season. RP was no different than most of the other charcters, except we had s1&2 to reference back to when the characters were acting OOC. RP was not fortunate in that regard because we had no previous references to explain or handwave his odd behavior at times. Thus, I've decided for me that Ray Palmer the character does not really begin until A319. Moving forward, I will give him a clean slate & fresh start. Everyone deserves a 2nd opportunity to make a first impression. And so far, what they've written from him has been sorta fun.

[Starfish35]

I'm sure we've all heard the story about how Ray was supposed to be Ted Kord (Blue Beetle) but they couldn't get permission for Ted Kord, so Ted became Ray. The thing is, I don't know anything about Ted Kord, so I'm not sure how much of Arrow!Ray's early characterization came from him. I just know that early on, this guy that came in and was charging around throwing money at everything, and refusing to take no for an answer was pretty offputting, not charming. RDJ can carry that off. Brandon Routh cannot. What Brandon Routh is (surprisingly, at least to me) good at is quirky comedy. Playing the madcap scientist against the grumpy Oliver Queen was gold. It has nothing with Olicity. When they started toning down the billionaire trying to run the world vibe, he actually started becoming more likeable. What a coincidence!

There were also some weird scenes early on that didn't help things. There was one scene I remember in particular where at the end of the episode we see him looking at some blueprints on his computer and then look up, and I swear, if you didn't know he was supposed to be one of the good guys, you would swear that look on his face was foreshadowing of evil intentions. I don't know if that was just Routh, or if it was deliberately played that way as a red herring or what.

[BkWurm1]

There were also some weird scenes early on that didn't help things. There was one scene I remember in particular where at the end of the episode we see him looking at some blueprints on his computer and then look up, and I swear, if you didn't know he was supposed to be one of the good guys, you would swear that look on his face was foreshadowing of evil intentions. I don't know if that was just Routh, or if it was deliberately played that way as a red herring or what.

 

I remember this scene and have complained about it myself.  It absolutely came off as foreshadowing that he was up to something and had a hidden agenda and I remember even as the scene came up the first time shaking my head and wondering what the hell the writers were thinking.  Yes lots of people knew he was going to be a good guy but it was like they were trying to be mysterious about him and purposely sent out all these signals to the viewers that they weren't supposed to like or trust this guy and I found it maddening that the show runners would deliberately shoot themselves in the foot.  Then I spent several weeks arguing why no, he was not going to be turned into a baddie. 

 

It was just another of the miss-steps they took when introducing his character.

 

To my memory, the episode where people started to say, hmm, they are writing him better happened right after they officially started Ray and Felicity dating.  It helped that his next scene after Nanda Parbat was a small one but the way the show wrote him had changed even in that small scene between him and Felicity.  He seemed relatable and charming and this was before Oliver and Felicity found a way to smile together again. 

 

They undid a great did of good will in the next episode with Suicidal Tendencies but I can't blame shippers since up until then I was a Ray fan and for a while after that episode I've never hated a character more and equally half of my hate came from how Ray treated Laurel! 

 

I did get over my hate mostly because once my rage calmed some, I could see that in that particular episode they wrote him even more unfairly than ever before.  Until proven otherwise by some future characterization I have to believe that he was written OOC for that episode between the casual electrocution of Roy to some pretty heavy handed lies about absolute trust, not to mention the full on misogyny of no woman that previously had feelings for Oliver being capable of judging if he was a current serial killer.  I hope never to see that lying, arrogant, entitled prick again.

 

By the time Ray rolled out to Central City and then was hopped up on painkillers, just loopy out of his mind in the hospital, I could see Suicidal Tendencies for the characterization mess it was.  It didn't do any justice to Felicity either and on the other side of the storyline, I found Deadshot's flashback "breakdown" rushed, clichéd, and embarrassing so yeah, I blame the writing on that one not the characters.  (Ray randomly having to officiate the wedding - it just was asking for hatred)

 

I had a lot of high hopes for Ray when he first appeared and was very disappointed when they did very little with the character in the first two thirds of the season.  I could see what the show was trying to go for, a combo of absentminded and extreme earnest professor, too caught up in his inventions and dreams to pay attention to social cues about awkwardness.  Someone that used his money to get what he wanted but at the same time wasn't obsessed about money, it was just a mean to an ends not the end goal.  Someone that needed constant challenges or he would become bored and the whole package wrapped up in a vow to his dead fiancé to do better than his past (her death and his failure to stop it) by becoming capable of saving others in the future. 

 

I think they put too much early emphasis on his money and his relentless nature in finding a way to make his plans happen and not enough on his reasons for wanting the suit to work.  They didn't need to set up a pissing contest between Palmer and Queen, not when Oliver wouldn't even interact with him again until episode 16.   I think if we'd had more chance to see into his heart and not his head early on, he would have had a more favorable reception. 

 

I think they finally let him show the non alpha male side of him and that's when people clicked with him.  Ray should be written as so supremely confident in his intellect and ideas and ability to see them executed that he doesn't need to try to impress people with firm handshakes, sneaky business practices, or other such posturing.  That's why Ray the dork works.  I think the writers tried to write Palmer the businessman as cut to the chase, let's skip that haggling and tell me what will make this happen but instead of making him look earnest and open it came off as cocky and arrogant and suspicious. 

 

By the time he started getting better characterization away from his initial over the top business stalking practice (and that no one denies) that damage was done and what was supposed to come off as generous in nature was read as ostentatious.  What was supposed to be expedient and again generous, came off as manipulative and controlling.  People didn't trust him and he kept popping up in scenes when all I wanted was Felicity to get a hug from Diggle or at least someone that knew what she was going through and instead she got the clueless boss bumbling about turning her sorrow into something uncomfortable.   And this from someone that liked the guy 95% of the season!

 

I do feel confident that they've found their voice for Ray and going forward I expect them to also figure out how to balance in his serious side.  I think BR is more than capable of surprising his naysayers and turning around the opinion on him, but I just wish he didn't have to in the first place.   

[CabotCove]

Connel - What I would say about Ray hate is that while it seems stronger among those who ship olicity - it was not isolated.  I know those who disliked Ray because he didn't "belong" on Arrow and "by the way, when is Arrow going to start fighting bad guys again" kind of deal.

But I think the thing about Ray "getting better" when he and Felicity broke up wasn't suspect timing - I think it was the writers finally using BR well and letting him play with the other kids.

 

Ok, point taken. YOU, I get your point, the reasons you stated make some sense to me, I dont necessarily agree thats what Ray was like but I get were you are coming from. I agree that being allowed to interact with others made Ray  better, but If Im not mistaken he started doing that  while  he was dating Felicity, and there was the Flash episode, still they was extreme hate from most Olicity shippers in particular, but the moment he breaks with Felicity, the colorful compliments start flying LMAO.  Yeah it does nothing to convince me that it wasnt about shipping. Non shipper hate of Ray is mostly a different story, they are SOME reason that  I actually get.   I do think that sometimes some fans (excluding shippers, most of those dont want to change their minds for obvious reasons ) dont understand or are misguided about Ray and would like him if they did IMO. Not everyone is going to like him of course and thats very OK. But I do believe time can change perspective, can make a difference, sometimes and hopefully for the better. The future could be brighter for Ray/Atom/Brandon, thanks to time and a different, healthier environment. And the fact there wasnt really much wrong in the first place (imo), it should be a quick recovery. 

 

 

I like Olicity, but I'm not a shipper. I started liking Ray when they let him be a dork.

 

Im very OK with that, I would never think they weren't any non Olicity shippers who hate Ray. The motives of hating, the extremeness of hate and actions of shippers vs non-shippers, dislike of a character, just tend to differ. Generally, but they can be anomalies. There being tamer non shipper hate  or Ray not being perfect like any human being, doesnt really excuse the extreme hating actions on Ray/Brandon from Olicity shippers IMO.  I DONT think you were the kind of fan who went about everywhere online, calling Ray a stalker for similar things other characters do,  or attacking the actor Brandon Routh on twitter, unless you were? I have more hope of a non shipper liking or at least not hating a character maliciously, because they dont usually have ulterior motives (ie shipping), like I said above sometimes they dislike because they don't yet understand the character. But with time the character can win them over. On the contrary,  most shippers will NEVER like a character for as long as they are dating  one half of their ship, or for as long as they live, depending on the threat potential. JMO. 

Edited May 27, 2015 by Conell

[FurryFury]

On the contrary,  most shippers will NEVER like a character for as long as they are dating one one half of their ship, or for as long as they live depending on the threat potential. JMO.

 

It really depends on why do you ship/watch/etc. I'd say there's a very big chance the character who's a temporary love interest of a part of a big ship will get overwhelming hate, but it's quite possible to minimize it if the writing is good. It also really depends on the fandom in general. I remember quite a few cases where I didn't hate the other leg of the triangle even if I did ship a couple.

 

As for Ray, well, from the outside of the show, it does seem like his reception was influenced by him being a romantic false lead for Felicity, but it was way worse than Sara got, which probably means he just wasn't written as well as he could/should have been. I wonder what my reaction to the character could have been if I didn't drop Arrowbecause I actually believe Felicity deserves a much better guy than Oliver and I would have loved to see her in another romance (hell, I sorta shipped her with Barry before he also got destroyed by shitty writing). 

[BkWurm1]

On the contrary,  most shippers will NEVER like a character for as long as they are dating  one half of their ship, or for as long as they live, depending on the threat potential. JMO.

 

Sweeping statement are always my hot button.  I liked Ray.  I loved Sara and Barry.  I love Caitlyn and Iris and Eddie.  I hated Jimmy Olsen but LOVED Davis Bloom on Smallville.  I hated Brandon Routh on Chuck (til he went officially evil, then he was fun). 

 

And when it comes to shipping, I am the shippers shipper.  I have never watched a show where I didn't ship some pair.  I shipped Mary Ann and the Professor on Gilligan's Island (Let's be honest, I still do).  Hell, on Mr. Roger's Neighborhood I shipped Henrietta Pussycat with  X the Owl and had ideas about Lady Aberlin and Mr. Sweater and Sneakers himself.  I am fully qualified to speak from the shippers viewpoint and I sincerely believe that there are far greater factors involved with the dislike of a character than longing for a preferred pairing.  

Edited May 28, 2015 by BkWurm1

[kismet]

Not to beat a dead horse... but Ray/Felicity/Oliver was not a well written love triangle for any of the characters or the show. It detracted from the character arcs & plots. I will say showrunners & writer teams have strengths & weaknesses. IMO, writing love triangles is not one of the Flarrow writers rooms' strengths. Most of their love triangles I think have failed to be something that people really want to see. Sadly, I think this reason is partly why Eddie, Sara & Tommy were killed when they no longer served a triangle function. Shonda Rhimes is a good example of a showrunner/writer that has proven she can write a good triangle that can make most of her characters look good before/after and sometimes even during the triangle. She has done it across multiple shows with a host of different characters.

 

Ray's character is not perfect, he's had flaws. But the best thing they ever did was remove him off Palmer Island and let him play with everyone else. In LoT, I think so long as they play to the characters' dorkable strengths as opposed to whatever slick billionaire thing they were going for in the beginning he is in good shape.

[nksarmi]

Sweeping statement are always my hot button.  I liked Ray.  I loved Sara and Barry.  I love Caitlyn and Iris and Eddie.  I hated Jimmy Olsen but LOVED Davis Bloom on Smallville.  I hated Brandon Routh on Chuck (til he went officially evil, then he was fun). 

 

And when it comes to shipping, I am the shippers shipper.  I have never watched a show where I didn't ship some pair.  I shipped Mary Ann and the Professor on Gilligan's Island (Let's be honest, I still do).  Hell, on Mr. Roger's Neighborhood I shipped Henrietta Pussycat with  X the Owl and had ideas about Lady Aberlin and Mr. Sweater and Sneakers himself.  I am fully qualified to speak from the shippers viewpoint and I sincerely believe that there are far greater factors involved with the dislike of a character than longing for a preferred pairing.  

You are adorable. :)

[FurryFury]

I kinda envy you, I watch a lot of stuff and it's become really hard for me to ship characters. I may become invested for, like, a season or a half, but then it just goes away if the writing isn't up to par. All of my current favorite shows don't have any romantic relationships I like (mostly, they have romantic relationships I hate or dislike strongly), and there's only 2 couples I really like.

 

TBH, I'm a bit afraid they'll want to pair Ray with Sara, because I'm not sure if it works... and if it doesn't, it may ruin my favorite character and the reason I'll be tuning in. I don't have any opinion on Ray but it's clear the writers are invested in him, and I think it's possible they could decide that a romance with a popular character such as Sara can also make him more popular (this type of logic is par for the course for them - see Felicity/Barry and Felicity/Ray).

Edited May 29, 2015 by FurryFury

[Sakura12]

I used to be a huge shipper and was involved in pretty bad shipper war with one of my shows a few years ago. That turned me off shipping. I may like watching a couple together, but I am in no way invested in them. I don't really care whether they get together or not. Shipping is the least important part of a show for me now. 

 

I see all the characters as individuals. I only saw Ray briefly when he was on the Flash, he didn't leave a big impression on me but he didn't turn me off of him either. I'll see how he is on this show now that he's away from that black hole of suck that Arrow has become. 

 

If we have to ship Sara with someone I'd go for Captain Cold. They seem like they'd be a fun pair.

[FurryFury]

I don't like to think about romance before I see the chemistry and dynamic between the characters. But yeah, Cold may be fun, and we don 't know anything about Rip yet, too.

Shipping can be a great way to become invested in a show but I see so few well written romances nowadays. It's easier to just avoid it altogether.

[HighwayFlower]

I never saw the movie they did together, but did Caity and Brandon have any chemistry? Is it even out yet?