Ray Palmer: The ATOM

[tessaray]

I don't want to see Sara in a relationship right away (ETA: especially with Ray)  As one of the few who appreciated the horrific drama of S6 Buffy, I want being resurrected to have a major impact on who she is and how she sees the world.  It's too bad there isn't anyone on the new team who could play Spike to her Buffy - if there was I'd be okay with that. (I will slink back to my corner now.)

 

Just wanted to add that I am not opposed to a Ray/Sara pairing but it would have to happen slowly for me to buy it.  They are just too different at this point in their lives.

Edited May 29, 2015 by tessaray

[FurryFury]

Oh god no Spuffy please, ever. *has horrific memories of Buffy s6* 

That said, Sara is no Buffy, and I could easily imagine her having a relationship with somebody pretty evil (hell, I consider Nyssa pretty evil - not like Spike, but still). But I don't think something like that will or should happen.

 

That said, the topic is about Ray, so I'll just say that they probably should delve into his relationship with Anna instead of giving him new love interests. I mean, with time travel, an episode featuring her is a given, as is the temptation to save her from her fate.

[tarotx]

Yes Ray has to deal with Anna. Plus Sara has to deal with herself and Nyssa and I think it would be cool if Hawk Girl were to be sensitive because of a past lives love history. But that's for a different thread.

[tessaray]

I would be happy to leave all relationships to fanfic but it's inevitable that there will be some. Hopefully they cast someone as Anna that BR has real chemistry with.

 

Once Ray and Felicity were no longer a thing, I was surprised at how much I actually liked him.  I'm not a die hard Olicity shipper (though I think it's the best pairing on Arrow), so it wasn't that I was opposed to Raylicity as much as it was the creepy stalker vibe he had. Giving us Ray in flannel shirts, being a dork made such a huge difference. 

[quarks]

In just eight episodes, Agent Carter managed to tease Peggy Carter with at least three, arguably four, guys and for some viewers, one woman, even with Peggy still clearly not over Captain America.  

 

So thirteen episodes is plenty of time for Legends to tease Ray with Sara or Hawkgirl or both. 

[Sakura12]

I wouldn't put it past them to tease Sara with all the characters on the show because they can. 

 

I've already seen Ray and Sara shippers because they could be similar to Olicity or something. 

 

Also here's a bts pic of Caity and Brandon. 

 

[FurryFury]

In just eight episodes, Agent Carter managed to tease Peggy Carter with at least three, arguably four, guys and for some viewers, one woman, even with Peggy still clearly not over Captain America.

 

There's a difference between intentional ship tease and just platonic moments fan interpret as such. In case of Agent Carter, I'd say she only got tease with Sousa and Jack. Everything else is just fans seeing subtext (IMHO). And I'm saying it as somebody not shipping her with anybody yet.

 

Plus, AC is much more focused on its hero (she's in the title!) LOT will be stuffed with 8, or maybe 7, regulars, all of whom should be treated as actual heroes and not just supporting cast. And then there's the villain. And they'll definitely want a crossover or two. I really don't think there will be a lot of time for romance other than some light teasing.

 

I've already seen Ray and Sara shippers because they could be similar to Olicity or something.

 

Yeah me too. I don't ship Olicity (don't dislike it though, just not my cup of tea) and even if I did I wouldn't want another similar relationship in the 'verse. Variety is good.

[Lokiberry]

Sara is the most mistreated character in the Flarrow universe. Now that tptb have belatedly discovered how popular she is, I don't want them to use her to prop their latest problem child. After all she's been though, she should get the breakthrough star of the team, whoever that ends up being (and I'd bet real money it won't be Ray).

 

If Ray must have a love interest, let it be Hawkgirl. If he starts up with the crazy stalker eyes, she can hit him with her mace.

[kismet]

Can't they just wait & see who he has most chemistry with? I know they want to plan out the show. But I feel like most good tv couples thru time are ones that were not necessarily planned out before the pilot was written. There are general ideas & concepts. But I feel like fluid take on relationships is the best approach for all members of LoT at this point.

I think they need to work out the Anna relationship or just drop it. But it would be nice to see him have a little more reflection on his dead fiancee than what they showed in arrow. Especially since time travel is part of this show.

[nksarmi]

I don't need them to cast Anna, but I would like to see Ray wonder if she could be saved.  I think Caity and Brandon might create a Sara/Ray ship since they know each other already and seem friendly with each other.  I think that might naturally translate into an on screen ship, but I can see a lot of other ships arising so I hope they leave it really up in the air for the first season.

 

1. What I'd like to see for Ray is more time with Cisco.

2. A serious conversation with Sara about if she remembers anything about being dead and with Hawkgirl about past lives so you can tell his is wondering what happened to Anna when she died.

3. More nerdy billionaire with his toys/technology stuff.

4. Completing a run on the Ladder to watch Sara do the same and a look that shows just how freaking impressed he is with her.

 

I'm sure I will have more later, but these would be a good start.

[olicityfan25]

I think it's ridiculous to generalize an entire fandom. As I'm seeing here a poster is generalizing the entire Olicity fandom as being hardcore haters of everything Arrow except Oliver and Felicity.

I liked Sara and was genuinely pissed off when they killed her. I didn't like Ray because of how they introduced him. Trying to take all of Oliver's things away. I didn't like Ray or how they wrote him as only being around Felicity. Ridiculous really. I'm an Olicity fan and most of us didn't just dipole Ray because he was with Felicity. It's because he was just all around creepy. He didn't get better until the last episode for me. Most if not all had to do just with him. No one else. It's easy to blame the entire fan base. Doesn't make it right.

[nksarmi]

I understand why some people had issues with Ray early on.  But I do think that some - not all - people's views might have been colored because of how the writers tried to position Ray against Oliver.  I kind of think some fandoms need to realize that there are some crazy posters out there in the Internet world who might be representing their "ship" or character poorly and ease up a bit.  I saw people calling Felicity a slut for sleeping with Ray over on the Facebook pages.  Some people were so delusional that even accused her of cheating on Oliver even though they were not together. I no longer view those pages because of people like that.  So while many people here are rational and reasonable - try to understand that if people check out the whole of Arrow fandom - they are going to read a lot of f-ed up shit regarding olicity and it would be easy to be dismissive of people's views of Ray because of it. 

 

Personally, no matter how odd or rough a start Ray got, I think they eventually evolved Ray in the right direction and I am looking forward to seeing him on this show.  I also don't mind if we see a little bit of him in early season four of Arrow or season two of Flash to setup this show. And I don't think Ray and Felicity are ever going to be even a little bit of a thing again, so I think the character is free to like or dislike him just for him, which is great for Ray and Brandon in my opinion.

 

Finally, with all due respect, I think we should really just shut down the olicity conversation on this thread and focus on Ray for who he is going to be moving forward.  We can talk about rather or not he made Felicity owner of Palmer Tech or if he will be BFFs with Oliver someday - but I really don't think we need to discuss him in regards to a triangle that has been resolved anymore.  Just my two cents and all that.

[BkWurm1]

I've already seen Ray and Sara shippers because they could be similar to Olicity or something.

 

 

Yeah me too. I don't ship Olicity (don't dislike it though, just not my cup of tea) and even if I did I wouldn't want another similar relationship in the 'verse. Variety is good.

 

The resemblance is only skin deep though, since as alike as Ray and Felicity might seem on the surface (and the same for Oliver and Sara) they are very much their own people.  Can anyone imagine Oliver laughing like Sara did after Ra's put on a show of power before deciding her fate?  And apart from a one time deal with wearing the suit to save Oliver, Felicity would never consider building a super suit to physically fight crime. 

 

I've been a fan of a lighter versus a more serious character troupe for many, many years.  Felicity and Oliver are just the latest.  Castle vs Beckett, Booth vs Bones, Chuck vs Sara (and just to show my old school roots) Remington Steele vs Laura Holt.  I like the way the characters can be dissimilar on the outside and similar on the inside.  

 

I absolutely agree that it's too soon to do any serious romantic stuff between any of the LoT characters and yeah, I've brought up the need for Ray to address the possibility of saving Anna too (before having to let go of that hope or the more classic tragic version where he does save her and she ends up dying anyway)

 

BUT after that and assuming Sara puts Nyssa behind her (not a given ) AND assuming that they have on screen chemistry, yeah, I could see myself getting behind a Ray and Sara (SaRay? RaSara?  Say? Rara?  ) romance.  At the very least I think they WILL have some fun interactions even if they are never more than friendly.

 

Sara is just soo much more jaded and weary than Ray.  That dude bounces in excitement and is still very much naïve about the role he's taken up. 

 

I have this sudden desire for Ray to be pranked as a running joke episode to episode.  Ray would be puzzled, most of the group would think it's hilarious.  Sara would be disdainful of the waste of time.  But then as time goes by, we'd find out that it was Sara pulling the pranks and that despite of all her trauma, she just couldn't resist tweaking Ray because he makes it so easy. 

 

I know, very random, but yeah, I can definitely see the potential for at the very least, a lovely friendship. 

Edited June 2, 2015 by BkWurm1

[FurryFury]

Yeah I understand why people thought of this pairing, it's common for fans to like the same relationship tropes (although I'm not a big fan of this specific one, so I don't gravitate there automatically). Anyway, tropes are good and everything, but it's the details that matter in the end. Wait and see is my approach.

 

I could see myself getting behind a Ray and Sara (SaRay? RaSara?  Say? Rara?  ) romance.

 

Iron Canary! White Atom! Take your pick :)

Edited June 2, 2015 by FurryFury

[CabotCove]

Sweeping statement are always my hot button.

 

I think it's ridiculous to generalize an entire fandom. As I'm seeing here a poster is generalizing the entire Olicity fandom as being hardcore haters of everything Arrow except Oliver and Felicity.

 

 

SEE. This is why I have a personal policy now, NOT  to talk to Olicity fans ( at least a majority of you). Why I'm i even bothering with the bracketed part, of course that's totally synonymous with the word entire.  I do not want to come here to have fights or have to defend what I did NOT say. To accuse me of generalizing by generalizing my own words, how ironic.  

No matter what I or some of us with a different opinion say, some of you always find the worst things to highlight from a whole post or twist someone's words into what they DID NOT say to fit your own agenda.

Its pointless, there is no true or valuable dialogue (to me) under those circumstances, among others.  This is why Im saying NO MORE ENGAGING. 

 

Finally, with all due respect, I think we should really just shut down the olicity conversation on this thread and focus on Ray for who he is going to be moving forward.

All for that, but by "focus on Ray" I hope that doesnt mostly mean or will turn to mostly bashing Ray, shading and taking cheapshots at Ray. 

I can see a lot of other ships arising so I hope they leave it really up in the air for the first season.

 

 

Agree. It doesnt seem like a show that needs any kind of romance badly & ASAP, so why hurry.

Edited June 3, 2015 by Conell

[Sakura12]

I do think we should have a rule of no Olicity talk since they are not part of this show.

 

I don't watch Arrow anymore (I'll watch Season 4 if Sara's going to be on it). I'm choosing to form an opinion on Ray with how he is on this show. 

[nksarmi]

Yes at his point any "olicity" talk should be reserved to Ray and Sara....

 

Sara: So, you gave your company to Felicity?  You had it bad for her, huh? 

 

Ray: Well yes, but I gave it to her after she dumped me for Oliver.

 

Sara: Oh they finally got together; that was WAY overdue.

 

Ray: Huh, wish you had been around to warn me - I clued in way too late that they were a thing.

 

Sara: Really? I thought you were suppose to be a genius or something.

 

Ray: Ha Ha.

 

Sara: So Oliver, what did you think of him?

 

Ray: Hmm, well he's a total control freak and he really likes being in charge, but I did give his former company to his girlfriend so we'll see how well that works out for him.

[Sakura12]

I am looking forward to seeing Ray and Sara or Sara and anyone because I love her so much. Lol. 

 

I hope since Caity and Brandon know each other and have worked together before they can bring that into their characters. While I don't think they should date, I do want to see Ray being able to make Sara smile with his goofiness and Ray be impressed with Sara's skills. I also think they should have a Salmon Ladder competition. BR said he did three rungs, Caity did two. Let's see who can do more now. 

[CabotCove]

Yes at his point any "olicity" talk should be reserved to Ray and Sara....

 

Why, the two "pairings" have nothing to do with the other and well I dont think even Ray & Sara have much to do with the other at this point.

Just sounds to me like it will be Olicity talk, existing viciously through Ray/Sara and masquerading as R/S, which Imo sounds like the exact opposite of "Focusing on Ray".  Not saying Im against Ray/Sara relationship, whatever type that will be, and the discussion of, but just not really keen of this linking and likening to Olicity . 

Edited June 3, 2015 by Conell

[nksarmi]

Why, the two "pairings" have nothing to do with the other and well I dont think even Ray & Sara have much to do with the other at this point.

Just sounds to me like it will be Olicity talk, existing viciously through Ray/Sara and masquerading as R/S, which Imo sounds like the exact opposite of "Focusing on Ray".  Not saying Im against Ray/Sara relationship, whatever type that will be, and the discussion of, but just not really keen of this linking and likening to Olicity . 

I was making a joke because Ray dated/slept with one half of that pairing and Sara dated/slept with the other half of that pairing and I expect there is some room for a couple of comedy/snarky lines from the writers if the two characters discuss that fact. 

[CabotCove]

OK, got it. 

Edited June 3, 2015 by Conell

[scarynikki12]

Hey guys, don't forget this thread is about Ray Palmer.  If the focus of your post is not about his character then it belongs elsewhere.  If you find that the bulk of your post is about something other than Ray (eg, the Felicity/Oliver relationship) then it should be posted in the appropriate thread. 

 

Also, remember to be respectful towards each other.  Disagreements are great, negative comments about fellow posters are not.  Please be mindful of tone and choice of words as you craft your posts. 

 

Myself and MarkHB are here for any questions or clarifications.

 

scarynikki12

[Trini]

So, what is Ray Palmer like in the comics? I gather that his personality shown so far on Arrow is different.

[Delphi]

Kind of the same as in Arrow to be honest. No where near as intrusive though. He's also not a billionaire so he's a bit more level headed. He is just as determined as he is in the show, not sleeping or eating if he's working on a project, which puts a serious damper on his social relationships (and marriage). Not really a genius inventor, but probably one of the best physicists in the DCU.

[twoods]

I'm excited to see Ray on this show. I loved his goofiness on Arrow and there are so many serious characters on LoT so I want to see how they take his dorkiness. Him away from the Arrow mess and some of the fan base that hated him is the best thing for his character.

[Actionmage]

Yes, I love Brandon and TPTB are letting him have lighter material. He does well with it.

 

( There was a sitcom a couple or three seasons back called Partners. He was a lead character's S.O. and was hilarious. He was the grounded one of the couple, but got some good lines. He also has great reactions.  http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2248977/?ref_=nv_sr_4)

[nksarmi]

So I know I'm one of about five fans - but I so want to see teeny Ray messing with Felicity's phone to try and get her attention.  I also wonder if somehow the tech that made him tiny is going to be the ground-breaking tech that saves the company.

[BkWurm1]

I'm really curious about Ray's return too.  I have high hopes about Ray's use in LoT. 

[kismet]

RP is looking so much better in these trailers than he ever did on ARROW. I think a team setting is good place for RP & BR.

 

Also, does anyone wanna take a bet that the woman in Red is either the Russian

Supervillain they talked about

or Anna*?

 

Edited - because I had the wrong name for the fiancee. Anna not Rebecca. Sorry!

Edited November 24, 2015 by kismet

[nksarmi]

Is Rebecca his dead fiancé? I couldn't remember her name, but I thought it was her in the promo considering they were talking about changing their "fates" over that clip.  I think the boy must be a young Cold right?

[kismet]

I thought the fiancee's name was Rebecca**, but I could be wrong. For most of s3 the writers forgot he had a fiancee, so my memory could be a little faulty. And I honestly don't have the strength to go back and watch the scenes to refresh my memory.

 

I think it's her too, just from his expression.

 

**Edited - the name is Anna not Rebecca. Thanks @Tarotx! Sorry.

Edited November 24, 2015 by kismet

[tarotx]

Rebecca is Malcolm's dead wife

Anna is Ray's dead fiancé

[kismet]

Rebecca is Malcolm's dead wife

Anna is Ray's dead fiancé

You know what is so funny, as I was typing in another thread about MM, the lightbulb went off in my head.... I was gonna come back and fix it. So thank you! Lack of sleep do not always help a faulty memory especially when it comes to names.

[MarkHB]

Ray's The Legend Begins...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUVLq6hursw

[nksarmi]

I know Ray already has people who dislike him because of his time on Arrow, but I really think I'm going to enjoy him on LoT.  I am also going to really enjoy him and Cold I think.

[rtalive]

I apologize for the negativity in advance. But i don't like Ray at all. He is total bore and full of cliches character. Nothing original.

Couple of things that stands out as cliche for me:

- dead fiancee, so he decides to never be weak again. - nothing compelling and interesting in this

- stalking the girl that he likes, buying her expensive stuff - as many already said, it is creepy

- being the other guy who offers consolation for the female character, because the one she likes doesn't want her - puts him in a very unfortunate kind of  pity position.

- the whole super suit and science geekiness, also unoriginal and created just for the actor because he looks good in the thechsuit.

- the whole self doubt last episode was also already seen in so many other characters, and the 'be a hero speech/ you can do it' was also something very exploit as a story line.

- He also tries too hard to be funny but, the show already has other more funny characters.

Overall introducing him in Arrow was mistake, because he just didn't fit in there. In my opinion was totally out of place and nothing to do with the main story, so that's why they decided to load him with these relationship cliches so he can fit in some way.

For me this character was created specifically for the actor but they failed to give him nice introduction and deep interesting motivation and backstory. 

The actor for me is also too cheesy, but just my opinion, nothing against him, so this with his cheesy story is too much.

I am totally not looking forward to anything connected to this character story wise.

[Sakura12]

The funny thing is they keep trying to make him happen by him having the biggest placement on all the posters and being second billed, however he's just not. The Atom/Ray barely get mentioned in reviews. Hawkgirl gets called boring but at least she's talked about. Ray is just kind of there and seems to be the worst person to have on the team. He's barely useful and more often than not hurts the team more than helps.

It's also funny that he's supposed to be there for comedic relief but two other characters are showing their comedic side (Heatwave and Sara) with better results.

Edited February 12, 2016 by Sakura12

[nksarmi]

I like Ray and how he is being used on the show.  I really enjoy his dynamic with Cold. 

[HighwayFlower]

I warmed up to Ray towards the end of Arrow and I really like him on LOT. He works great as the team dork. I can't see him ever carrying a show, but as part of the team he works

[kismet]

Seriously, I cannot believe that I am admitting this --- but I actually like Ray. And I HATED him in ARROW. Didn't like one thing about his character. Even on rewatch it was challenging to make it through the RP's scenes.

 

However, they are writing him perfectly in LoT. He has just enough adorkability mixed with arrogant ego topped with complete lack of self-awareness. It's just blended so well. And its playing off well against mostly all the characters. There is chemistry and interesting dynamics to observe.

 

I will say though, that they have to stop making all of his mess ups be the reason the missions fail. He may lack the insight to realize Cold is making fun of him, but the brains he has should be smart enough to recognize some things. Also I do find they are going a little too strong on the boy scout - sorry eagle scout side of his personality. I know he wants to be a hero, but it's coming off a little desperate at times.

 

I don't think he ever would have worked out long-term on ARROW, because let's face it Team ARROW has a pretty tight trio chemistry. And s4 is proving that expanding the team does not make for more interesting plots or stunts. In the end its not really an ensemble show, and I think BR/RP only work in an ensemble. However, I wish they had brought a little more of the Ray we see now because I could see this RP actually being someone FS would want to spend time with. Instead of the 19 episodes of ARROW I was forced to watch him and wonder why is she tolerating him, never mind willingly hanging out with him.

Edited February 13, 2016 by kismet

[BkWurm1]

I think that Ray both really wants to be a hero in order to give his life purpose (survivor's guilt maybe?) but I really think doing the right thing is his first instinct.  I think with Mick, Ray recognized that Mick had pissed off the guard and without thought, Ray tried to help.  Like Cold said, he'd do it for a stranger and I believe that about Ray.  He can't help himself. 

 

From episode thread. 

On Arrow we saw that Ray was generous to a fault but could also be really myopic and stubborn about what he thinks is the right thing. For example, he was convinced that he knew better than anyone that the GA was bad news and despite being told by those that knew Oliver first hand that he wasn't behind a rash of murders, Ray refused to listen and pretty much accused anyone who defended Oliver of being too overcome by their girly feelings to think straight.  (The only episode I hated Ray in)  It took him getting beaten (in his suit vs a dude with a bow and arrow, hee!) and Oliver NOT killing him for Ray to realized he'd been wrong. 

Otherwise in the first half of the season he was an overconfident genius schmuck who always got his way but in the second half he leaned more toward an brilliant, geeky fan boy ready to play his part.  He also gave up the girl (cause she clearly loved another) but then still gave her his whole company anyway (even after she quit and left town with her new boyfriend). 

Then he had his shrinking accident where everyone thought he was dead and when he was rescued, he was depressed over how little all his money and status and inventions mattered.  The city leaders changed the name of the city in his honor but even that was them taking up his purposed rebranding of the city.  His only legacy was a failed marketing gimmick. 

 

I think if Ray had any other plans they would've let us know that. This show isn't exactly subtle with their intentions. Ray just seems to be an idiot when it comes to social skills. He's probably seen prison movies/shows or knows about them but he thinks if he's nice to people they will be nice in return.

 

I think  saying he's an idiot when it comes to his social skills is valid but he's always been (or at least all his adult life) a RICH idiot with terrible social skills. (It would crack me up if it turned out that Anna, his dead fiancé turned out to be a heartless gold digger that had been doing a long con.)  He wouldn't have ever even known how bad he was at social cues. Who's going to tell him?  He was the eccentric very rich boss. 

 

On Arrow he didn't seem to understand personal boundaries or limits.  He'd show up in the morning on his Vice President's doorstep before she'd have a chance to dress because he had a sudden idea he decided he needed to tell her about immediately.  He offered unsolicited advice all the time.  He'd also hand over cutting edge tech because someone admired it and gave out vacation days after just a weeks worth of work (and ignore really suspect calls). 

 

He'd exercise shirtless in his office during normal office hours.  Once he wanted someone at a business dinner that he was comfortable talking to so before ever asking, he procured a bribe in the form of a couture dress and then as a surprise perk, also borrowed a ridiculously expensive diamond necklace just because he thought she might get a kick of wearing it and this was all before he had any romantic interests in her.   He pinged her cell phone and showed up where she was after office hours because he wanted to talk. Some called him an outright stalker.  I saw him as clueless about social boundaries. 

 

Ray, I think lived first in an ivory tower of learning (he was pretty proud of his 3 PHD's) and then went for year in the yes man bubble that stupid amounts of money creates.  He never needed to learn how to be smooth. He could be very attentive and personable and relentlessly charming but not sneaky. Clever and brave but in a blatant way.  He doesn't seem to understand blending or subterfuge.  He was either very forthright and open or he threw money at the problem.  When he wanted Felicity to work for him and she refused, he simply bought the entire electronics chain store she was working at so that she was already working for him. (I was very happy when she just quit).  But he was dumb with how he used his power.  He spent millions but he'd already figured out a way to make millions more out of a purchase he made solely as leverage against one potential employee.  

 

Perhaps running a business came so easy to him that he got no pleasure from his success?

 

All this is me trying to say that I think Ray has the potential for being a one of the characters with the most growth.  He has all these ideals and desperately wants to do the right thing and yeah, part of it is validation of his own existence, but he also really seems to be genuine in his insticts.  I'm curious to see who he becomes after being forced to stop seeing the world so black and white.  He's already a much more humble man than he was before and yeah, he was so clueless about wanting to make friends in the prison yard, but even then he wasn't all wrong.  He did get intel on Stein's whereabouts. If he was more intimidating and adaptable, he probably could have used what they found out to their advantage, instead he got his information but could barely stand in the end.  I do think he thought he had back up and therefore he thought he was safe showing his too nice side- oops.

 

I am at the point where I want Ray to have a win.  It's been fun seeing his mess up or see his excitement met with a dash of reality (or a janitor's uniform, hee) but I'm ready to see him use his brains on behalf of the team.  It's funny, there are aspects of his personality that we seem to see more in Snart than him.  Ray logically should be the one giving his teammates the pep talks about what makes a hero, but instead he's been on the receiving end and it was Cold that cared about Sara becoming a killer again or not.  (to be fair I think Ray was concussed at the time)    

 

[Lokiberry]

 

It's funny, there are aspects of his personality that we seem to see more in Snart than him.  Ray logically should be the one giving his teammates the pep talks about what makes a hero, but instead he's been on the receiving end and it was Cold that cared about Sara becoming a killer again or not.  (to be fair I think Ray was concussed at the time)

Well, in this particular instance, I don't think it would have meant so much to Sara coming from him. After all, as Cold would put it, Ray would give pep talks to perfect strangers. It took someone as morally compromised as Sara sees herself to be telling  her not to pull the trigger because she's not a killer anymore that got though to her.

[Sakura12]

I agree, it meant more to Sara coming from the crook than the boy scout. Snart who has also killed people seeing that Sara doesn't want to be know as a killer anymore is what got through to her. 

 

I think Ray is the only person Sara hasn't been paired with yet. Which is interesting. And maybe Sara should be training Ray how to fight for when he doesn't have a suit. 

[nksarmi]

I too want to see Ray have a win at this point.  And he kind of did when he and Stein saved Kendra. 

 

But nothing ever showed how clueless Ray is more than when he bought out the whole restaurant for the triple (?) date on the Flash.  He just tries SO hard and I'm sure most of the time, it did work for him.  But now his money can cover his social awkwardness.  So I'd like him to learn a little from the rogues and actually get a win that is based on his incredible mind, but tempered with Cold's or Sara's worldliness.

[foreverevolving]

From episode thread. 

On Arrow we saw that Ray was generous to a fault but could also be really myopic and stubborn about what he thinks is the right thing. For example, he was convinced that he knew better than anyone that the GA was bad news and despite being told by those that knew Oliver first hand that he wasn't behind a rash of murders, Ray refused to listen and pretty much accused anyone who defended Oliver of being too overcome by their girly feelings to think straight.  (The only episode I hated Ray in)  It took him getting beaten (in his suit vs a dude with a bow and arrow, hee!) and Oliver NOT killing him for Ray to realized he'd been wrong. 

Otherwise in the first half of the season he was an overconfident genius schmuck who always got his way but in the second half he leaned more toward an brilliant, geeky fan boy ready to play his part.  He also gave up the girl (cause she clearly loved another) but then still gave her his whole company anyway (even after she quit and left town with her new boyfriend). 

Then he had his shrinking accident where everyone thought he was dead and when he was rescued, he was depressed over how little all his money and status and inventions mattered.  The city leaders changed the name of the city in his honor but even that was them taking up his purposed rebranding of the city.  His only legacy was a failed marketing gimmick. 

 

I think  saying he's an idiot when it comes to his social skills is valid but he's always been (or at least all his adult life) a RICH idiot with terrible social skills. (It would crack me up if it turned out that Anna, his dead fiancé turned out to be a heartless gold digger that had been doing a long con.)  He wouldn't have ever even known how bad he was at social cues. Who's going to tell him?  He was the eccentric very rich boss. 

 

On Arrow he didn't seem to understand personal boundaries or limits.  He'd show up in the morning on his Vice President's doorstep before she'd have a chance to dress because he had a sudden idea he decided he needed to tell her about immediately.  He offered unsolicited advice all the time.  He'd also hand over cutting edge tech because someone admired it and gave out vacation days after just a weeks worth of work (and ignore really suspect calls). 

 

He'd exercise shirtless in his office during normal office hours.  Once he wanted someone at a business dinner that he was comfortable talking to so before ever asking, he procured a bribe in the form of a couture dress and then as a surprise perk, also borrowed a ridiculously expensive diamond necklace just because he thought she might get a kick of wearing it and this was all before he had any romantic interests in her.   He pinged her cell phone and showed up where she was after office hours because he wanted to talk. Some called him an outright stalker.  I saw him as clueless about social boundaries. 

 

Ray, I think lived first in an ivory tower of learning (he was pretty proud of his 3 PHD's) and then went for year in the yes man bubble that stupid amounts of money creates.  He never needed to learn how to be smooth. He could be very attentive and personable and relentlessly charming but not sneaky. Clever and brave but in a blatant way.  He doesn't seem to understand blending or subterfuge.  He was either very forthright and open or he threw money at the problem.  When he wanted Felicity to work for him and she refused, he simply bought the entire electronics chain store she was working at so that she was already working for him. (I was very happy when she just quit).  But he was dumb with how he used his power.  He spent millions but he'd already figured out a way to make millions more out of a purchase he made solely as leverage against one potential employee.  

 

Perhaps running a business came so easy to him that he got no pleasure from his success?

 

All this is me trying to say that I think Ray has the potential for being a one of the characters with the most growth.  He has all these ideals and desperately wants to do the right thing and yeah, part of it is validation of his own existence, but he also really seems to be genuine in his insticts.  I'm curious to see who he becomes after being forced to stop seeing the world so black and white.  He's already a much more humble man than he was before and yeah, he was so clueless about wanting to make friends in the prison yard, but even then he wasn't all wrong.  He did get intel on Stein's whereabouts. If he was more intimidating and adaptable, he probably could have used what they found out to their advantage, instead he got his information but could barely stand in the end.  I do think he thought he had back up and therefore he thought he was safe showing his too nice side- oops.

 

I am at the point where I want Ray to have a win.  It's been fun seeing his mess up or see his excitement met with a dash of reality (or a janitor's uniform, hee) but I'm ready to see him use his brains on behalf of the team.  It's funny, there are aspects of his personality that we seem to see more in Snart than him.  Ray logically should be the one giving his teammates the pep talks about what makes a hero, but instead he's been on the receiving end and it was Cold that cared about Sara becoming a killer again or not.  (to be fair I think Ray was concussed at the time)    

 

I wish we could give multiple likes to posts.. this is exactly why I never hated Ray on Arrow (except with the entire Felicity thing he did when they were dating). I could find reasons as to why he was the way he was, honestly I think BR was a perfect casting choice for this role. In many ways I look at Ray and I see Cap, Jack on Dr. Who. Arrow's Ray is like Jack on Dr. Who before his death, LoT Ray is like Jack on Torchwood- past his death and 100+ years of living and dying and resurrecting... There's a level of maturity and a bit of darkness to him that wasn't there before, the seeds were probably planted when Anna was murdered but they really bloomed after his own supposed death.

 

I think that is why I am attracted to the idea of him and cold together romantically (even though I know it will never sadly happen) there's something about their polar differences and how they are both being drawn to the polar the other one is on at the moment.. plus I think the actors have real chemistry together. Also: fan-fiction is a dangerous hobby which can help strengthen ideas that may not be have grown without them.

Edited February 22, 2016 by foreverevolving

[tarotx]

When Ray first appeared on Arrow until 3.19 I thought there was a chance Ray was going to be evil. I knew they were trying to spin him off and eventually did with LOT but the cast of LOT is Villains and heroes. I just don't see more darkness now. At times there is a diffidence in him that showed by a few times on Arrow but is more pronounced since his Lost in small-ville. He also seems a bit lonely now.  he is a more enjoyable character but that started happening in Arrow 3.19. Plus I see a potential for character growth of his ability to scope out situations and people better. As I said in the episode thread-he's not very adaptable. He perceives things how he does and it stays that way until he is either forced to see the good in the black shirts or blindsided by a white shirt. 

 

I do get the try hardness that Jack had in his first episodes of Doctor who but nowhere near the wowness. And definitely nowhere near Torchwood Jack. Jack made me need to watch the other works of JB. I have no interest in seeing BR's stuff. I get more a I should watch Prison break because of Snart and his dynamic with Mick. 

[kismet]

From episode thread. 

....

I am at the point where I want Ray to have a win.  It's been fun seeing his mess up or see his excitement met with a dash of reality (or a janitor's uniform, hee) but I'm ready to see him use his brains on behalf of the team.  It's funny, there are aspects of his personality that we seem to see more in Snart than him.  Ray logically should be the one giving his teammates the pep talks about what makes a hero, but instead he's been on the receiving end and it was Cold that cared about Sara becoming a killer again or not.  (to be fair I think Ray was concussed at the time) 

It's a testament to how well they are writing Ray in this new show, that I read through this entire (well-written, but lengthy) post and agreed with many points. In the past, I might have skipped over it because I was so repulsed or disinterested in his character. But I am now interested in his character thanks to the LoT writers.

 

I too thought RP was going to be evil in how they were writing him on ARROW, but to me that was just poor writing. I actually would have preferred if he had turned out as a bad guy on ARROW because his arc was so poorly written & acted on ARROW. But I'm glad, they decided to break him down in LoT to his bare bones and start all over again. I think it's an example of quality character writing, as well as them writing to BR's strengths.

 

That being said, I would like RP to get a win. I'm not surprised that they are writing him on the receiving end of Pep Talks because he is at the beginner stage of his hero/spy development. Kendra, Jax & RP are the beginners in the group. Snart, Sara, Rory are experienced in their jobs & roles. RP is smart but he never had to apply his skills or smarts to missions like they have had to encounter. Perhaps, a mission will come up that will match his skill set.

[CabotCove]

Discussion crossed over from: http://forums.previously.tv/topic/22790-spoilers-speculation-running-hot-cold/?page=55

 

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That's specifically why they hired former A-lister Brandon Routh, the biggest name the CW ever snaggedup to that point, and one already associated with a DC superhero - in order to have him headline a 3rd single lead white male character show.  

Really, Isnt that like your interpretation on what you think went down?. No one seems to be able to provide a link, actual confirmation of CW or Showrunners saying they want to do an Atom Spin off. Its all rumors/fan specs/opinion until someone can actually provide proof IMO. If you guys are gonna treat this as a fact, then lets see the facts, aint it?

We all have our interpretations, I wouldnt say BR was the biggest name CW had at that time nor do I even think he was ever an A lister. The Arrowverse ptb love to do nostalgic stunt casting, BR isnt the only one to have had played a DC superhero role or some other iconic genre role  and be cast in this universe.

I found this:http://screencrush.com/arrow-the-atom-spinoff-brandon-routh-ray-palmer/

No confirmation of an Atom spin off, now why would they keep such information at a big marketing event like TCA? They only express wanting to expand the universe and discussing some general ideas. Even though the media tried to spin it into being an Atom show. 

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 Then he wasn't well received but they still probably had Routh in contract for his own show otherwise they would not have spent all that money on him and his suit. While Routh hasn't done much after Superman. He's still the most expensive actor they have in the Flarrowverse. That's when they came up with LoT. 

Routh is the most expensive Arrowverse actor?  news to me. Link/proof please? They spend money on his suit yes, but it could mean they wanted to keep him on Arrow or send him The Flash or something else. Who says Ray wasnt received well?, its not anything I have heard CW or showrunners say.  If its not actually confirmed by them then its a fan opinion/theory/specs etc. 

Edited August 5, 2016 by WildcardC

[Delphi]

It isn't speculation, it was quite literally confirmed by Greg and Company as early as 2015 TCAs that a Atom spinoff was the goal, with CW president Mark Pedowitz saying the idea was intriguing.  It only stopped being an idea when season 3 was basically critically hated partly due to Ray's storyline, they changed directions to correct the multitude of errors that they made..  Of course the powers that be didn't say it was because everyone hated Ray so the CW said no,  because that's not how you spin a story.

[CabotCove]

The link I posted above is about 2015 TCAs and there is no such 'literal confirmation' or that atom spin off  was the goal. So links please? Anyone can interpret information however they want to, so lets see the original source. See, season 3 of Arrow was actually higher in ratings than the previous season despite being rubbish, so they would have still made an Atom show if they really wanted it. There was no backdoor pilot done or even leaked plans of doing one. If the cast BR with that goal in mind they would have planned a back pilot or at least announced  it like they did with Grant Gustin. Instead Ray never really even got centric episodes in Arrow, Barry did. 

Here is a link with MG talking about this rumored Atom Spin off and BR casting.
http://screenrant.com/arrow-tv-atom-suit-spinoff-show-routh/

Quote

 

But Guggenheim maintains that there’s no ‘master plan’ for The CW’s next superhero series with Routh in mind – at least, there wasn’t to begin with:

“When we met with Brandon, the whole point of Ray Palmer for us — not the whole point but a big piece of Ray Palmer — was… Felicity’s voice is of a different show and we always say that Emily’s playing tennis against herself. [Laughs.] So we wanted to create a character that could vibrate at her frequency. And Ray really brings that and brings that energy and he’s so much fun to write. He’s a joy to write.

 

 

Pretty much sounds like the idea of Atom spin off is from a media push than the writers or CW themselves.