S10.E21: Dark Dynasty

[MysteryGuest]

If they had wanted to get rid of Charlie, they had their golden opportunity when she followed Dorothy to Oz.  Just leave her there.  Why bring her back just to kill her off in such a horrific way?  Surely they could have come up with some other plot device to show just how off the rails Dean had gotten without needing to bring "Bad Charlie" into the mix.  While I enjoyed parts of last season, the writers definitely lost their way, IMO.

[AwesomO4000]

Maybe they were afraid to have Dean just go "off the rails." This way Dean had a reason to go off the rails.

[MysteryGuest]

He had the Mark of Cain, which should have been reason enough.  They talked all season about just how on the edge he was, so it would have been better for them to actually show some of that behavior.  Charlie didn't need to be a part of it.  Anything at all could have set him off.

[Myrelle]

Charlie was assigned the little sister role, similar to Kevin's role in S9. The Winchesters were supposed to protect these people and they didn't. Kevin was Dean's guilt in that regard and Charlie was Sam's in the same vein. That's how these writers saw it anyway. IMO.

[bettername2come]

I like Sam and Rowena together. I'm in danger of shipping them. I love Charlie and Cas agreeing that secret keeping amongst the Winchesters is never good. Charlie and Rowena discussing Agnes the rogue nun? We have a Bechdel test pass. I love Castiel's deer-in-the-headlights look when Dean answers the phone. I love Crowley arguing with the hamster. So if the Stynes are the Frankensteins, was Mary Shelley a hunter? I'd watch that spinoff. I love that the guys told Charlie to just give the Stynes what they wanted. "We all love you." No one on this show is capable of "I love you," are they? They always have to say it in a different way. Poor Charlie. I don't believe she would've died that way. There was a window! Felicia Day has argued this. And Charlie running into the bathroom immediately reminds me of this:

[Hanahope]

I kept expecting Rowena to tell Sam about the witch-leader/hamster who might be able to decipher the Codex.  

Was I the only one who chuckled a bit when Sam was telling Charlie about the Codex (given that Felicia Day played a character called Codex in The Guild)?  

Of course another one of the boys' female helpers bites the dust.  I would love it if Cas could bring her back.  Who did she email her research to?  I would have thought the Stynes would kidnap Charlie for leverage.

Styne = Frankenstein - of course.

I thought they said before that the Book of the Damned had been hidden for centuries, but the Stynes said something about only losing it 80 years ago.

[Wayward Son]

On 7 May 2015 at 6:40 AM, AwesomO4000 said:

Speaking of that, catrox... I did enjoy Castiel stating the obvious that Rowena was a wicked witch ... hee.
 

 

Edited to add:

 

This is what I dislike the most about Charlie's death. Yet another blow for Sam's character. Mr. Carver just can't seem to go an entire season without having Sam do something that fans will really dislike him for. At least the interval is getting longer as to how long it takes: Season 8 - not even one episode. Season 9 - 12 episodes. This season Sam made it 20 episodes... On second thought, maybe that makes it worse, because I actually had hope this season.

 

As others said previously I don't blame Sam for Charlie's death. Charlie is a grown woman who should own the choices she made. She was the one who chose to help Sam knowing the dangers involved, and she was the one who chose to leave the protection offered by Castiel because Rowena annoyed her. I found Charlie a lot more culpable for her death than Kevin who had no idea about the Angel-in-a-Sam and never chose to enter the hunting life in the first place. 

 

On 7 May 2015 at 1:34 PM, NoWillToResist said:

 

 

You know, I've joked about the show deciding to dump all the characters except Sam and Dean so that the next season returns to its "roots" (brothers only). But I didn't think they'd kill Charlie since she's hardly ever around anyway. But if she is truly dead and this isn't some fake-out, then I'm more worried than ever about Cas' fate.

Spoiler

You were two seasons two early in regards to a finale that kills off Crowley, Rowena and Cas :p haha 

[The Companion]

Oh fuck you, show. 

I have put up with a loooooot of crap in my time, but to fridge Charlie like this is absolutely outrageous. Just in case you thought she was killed for any other purpose than to show how her death affected the men, they showed us reaction shots before showing her dead. She didn't even get a fucking death scene. 

I am on record saying that I love Charlie, and I particularly love that she isn't one of the like 4 types of women this show constantly writes (hot damsel, evil but also sexy, older maternal but also attractive or hot but can shoot a gun/fight). Charlie was written with her own life and her own interests. She had no interest in sleeping with either guy. She was sex positive and nerdy and smart and completely different than anyone else on the show. So they kill her for shock value? That isn't shocking, Supernatural. We EXPECT it, particularly from sci fi and particularly from this show. WHEN PEOPLE COMMENT WITH RELIEF THAT THEY WERE WORRIED WHEN A FEMALE CHARACTER THEY LIKED SHOWED UP BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T WANT YOU TO KILL THEM OFF, YOU HAVE PROBABLY KILLED TOO MANY WOMEN. What would have been radically different would have been actually having her live. 

And the fucking way she was killed off. The way every single person in this episode seems to have lost even the tiniest bit of logic or intelligence? The way these obnoxious and boring new villains who are basically souped up humans somehow can magically find her and move around at lightning speed? The way they give back Castiel's superpowers last week just to have him babysit? I just fucking CANNOT with you, show.

Oh, and let's talk about the Frankensteins. Who thought these douches would make an interesting monster. Really? 9-11? Oh, and they are from SHREVEPORT? So the guy with the "cajun" accent was from North Louisiana? Little geography lesson, the cajuns are down South. Shreveport is a small north Louisiana city and the accent is closer to Arkansas. Though, frankly, I have no idea what any of those accents were supposed to be. Anyway, so they are a prominent family who runs the world from Shreveport and their general motivation  is generic  eeeeevil and money? Barf. They may be the least interesting monsters this show has produced.

I was going to beg someone for spoilers that Charlie is somehow brought back from the dead but, you know, it doesn't matter. Because this show still decided this was an acceptable plot line. 

[gonzosgirrl]

I think Carver took as much flak for killing off Charlie as for anything that ever happened in the show. When questioned about it at ComicCon, the rest of the panel (J2M specifically) basically sat back and pretended they didn't know him. I'm 95% sure it's why Robbie Thomson quit.

Personally, I didn't care how they killed her off as long as she was gone, but mileage definitely varies on that one.

[gonzosgirrl]

ETA: Although they really hit Cas with the stupid/useless stick on this one, they didn't do the character of Charlie any favours in the brains department either. Leaving the secure area in a huff, a female version of a pissing contest with Rowena, was just plain stupid.

(Ha, guess it wasn't an edit after all. o_O)

Edited January 22, 2020 by gonzosgirrl

[The Companion]

On 5/6/2015 at 9:23 PM, Pete Martell said:

I've barely been keeping up the last month and this pretty much cements it. Not because Charlie is so awesome that she had to live, but just because it's so boring and so trite at this point. It's lazy writing 101, and the show just can't stop resorting to not-so-shocking shock value even as there's pretty much no one left and nothing to work with.

 

I've enjoyed my time posting here but this is probably going to be it for me. Even if she isn't dead, I'm probably still done. I was mostly just watching for Dean at this point and I don't really feel like wading through all the rest. 

 

It's been fun guys. 

I don't know if you ever came back, but I really enjoyed your analysis, FWIW. I wish I had your self-preservation, but I am probably too damn stubborn. 😆😭

On 5/6/2015 at 9:41 PM, catrox14 said:

 

My worry is strictly about how it's going to be perceived by the largely female fan base and frankly the LGBT community.  I am not entirely convinced the show will be able to survive this choice.  

Yes. I meant to raise this, but forgot in my RAAAAGE. I am trying to find a way to even structure how much it sucks to kill off the openly gay character like this.

This show is very . . . straight? There are all sorts of fun ways it could mess with gender and sexuality, given the demon and angel possessions. Instead, most references to being gay are jokes. 

Frankly, I have been shocked by the fact that they actually introduced an openly gay woman on the show who wasn't just there for the guys to talk about how hot it is for her to kiss girls. I mean, even in this late season, Dean is leering at college women. So, it has been really nice to have a good, strong gay character. One who is comfortable with who she is and sex positive.

But, what do you know? We are once again killing off a gay character. To give the men the feels. I am, frankly, tired of watching gay characters get slaughtered over and over. 

On 5/12/2015 at 12:25 AM, Tippi Blevins said:

I'm just still really worried about the pizza Dean went to pick up before he was ambushed by the Stynes.

 

Is it destroyed? Did he leave it in the alley? Did it have cheese-filled crust?

Fridging the pizza is the last straw.  I think we can presume it was a lady pizza unless they bring it back later. 😆😩

3 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I think Carver took as much flak for killing off Charlie as for anything that ever happened in the show. When questioned about it at ComicCon, the rest of the panel (J2M specifically) basically sat back and pretended they didn't know him. I'm 95% sure it's why Robbie Thomson quit.

Personally, I didn't care how they killed her off as long as she was gone, but mileage definitely varies on that one.

Good! He should have taken heat for this one. It was a crappy decision. He couldn't have been totally unaware that the show was being criticized for its treatment of women and LGBTQIA issues. I knew about it and I didn't even watch the show. It was a stunt to get people talking. I honestly can't see it as anything else. Spoilers for The Magicians below:

Spoiler

It feels very similar to killing off Quentin at the end of last season. The showrunners were SO SURE we would be shocked but in a good way. Look at how clever we were to kill off our main character, who was the white male protagonist. Bet you didn't see that coming. 

Oh, except that he was also bisexual and struggled with depression. There was nothing brave or edgy about it. It sucked. And it was a big "fuck you" to fans. It got clicks, but not what they wanted. SyFy even tried to erase articles that criticized the decision from their site.

I still haven't gotten over my anger enough to watch the premier.

I don't care if they write her off. I mean, I love the character personally, but there are 100 ways to say we don't feel like she advances the plot beyond fridging her. 

Just now, gonzosgirrl said:

ETA: Although they really hit Cas with the stupid/useless stick on this one, they didn't do the character of Charlie any favours in the brains department either. Leaving the secure area in a huff, a female version of a pissing contest with Rowena, was just plain stupid.

Agreed. It was like everyone in the episode was under some stupidity spell. I mean, she said she taught herself in a coffee shop, but she can't work with distractions? I just don't buy her stomping off in a huff like a teenage girl. And don't get me started on the one armed chain. 

 

I won't rage quit, because I am too damn stubborn, but I am really pissed off at the moment.

[ahrtee]

10 minutes ago, The Companion said:

I won't rage quit, because I am too damn stubborn, but I am really pissed off at the moment.

Fasten your seat belt 'cause it's gonna be a bumpy ride.

(No spoilers, just there will be *a lot* of ups and downs.)  

[The Companion]

7 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Fasten your seat belt 'cause it's gonna be a bumpy ride.

(No spoilers, just there will be *a lot* of ups and downs.)  

I don't know if I should respond with the laugh emojii or the cry one. 😆😭

[Katy M]

On 1/22/2020 at 11:14 AM, The Companion said:

Agreed. It was like everyone in the episode was under some stupidity spell. I mean, she said she taught herself in a coffee shop, but she can't work with distractions? I just don't buy her stomping off in a huff like a teenage girl. And don't get me started on the one armed chain. 

And this is why it bugs me that Sam gets the majority of the blame for her death.  Besides the Steins, of course, Charlie is the one most responsible for her own death.  Had she stayed with Cas, there's no reason to believe she wouldn't have been fine.  I mean, for crying out loud, she snuck out while Cas went into what was basically another room to call Sam. Send Charlie over there.

And, I'd been over Charlie since Slumber Party, so I didn't really care that they killed her.  The fact that it was her own arrogance that got her killed made it all the sweeter.  It's not like they don't kill 90% of the characters on this show (with a greater or lesser degree of permanence).

[The Companion]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

And this is why it bugs me that Sam gets the majority of the blame for her death.  Besides the Steins, of course, Charlie is the one most responsible for her own death.  Had she stayed with Cas, there's no reason to believe she wouldn't have been fine.  I mean, for crying out loud, she snuck out while Cas went into what was basically another room to call Sam. Send Charlie over there.

And, I'd been over Charlie since Slumber Party, so I didn't really care that they killed her.  The fact that it was her own arrogance that got her killed made it all the sweeter.  It's not like they don't kill 90% of the characters on this show (with a greater or lesser degree of permanence).

I think the fact that they had her wander off is part of what is so infuriating, because that doesn't feel like her character at all. Beyond that, there was such a catastrophic chain of stupidity, that I refuse to blame anyone but the writers on this one. If they hadn't chained this dude up by one arm. If Charlie had worked from the damn car or gotten some headphones or gone to the other room or literally any other logical response to someone distracting you. I mean, FFS, she worked in a cubicle when we met her. You are going to tell me she is used to quiet work environments? Please. Not to mention the inexplicable ability to apparently teleport and track Charlie. And the failure to take their prisoner's phone. I just can't. 

I don't really get saying Sam is responsible. I have no doubt her death will be used as something to make Sam feel guilty and Dean go off the rails, but that is literally the problem. She was killed so that we could see the guys' response. Ugh. It's gross. It isn't that she died, it's the way she died and the purpose of her death within the story that makes me absolutely livid. And they didn't even have enough respect to write a logical story to do it. 

That being said, I am not sure what Sam was supposed to do that would have changed things. Is the argument that he should have burned the (apparently unburnable) book? Even then, Charlie would have been a target. Is it that he didn't have her in the bunker? Cause then magic Styne brother would have been in the same place as she was and could have killed her. Is it that he pulled her back in? She already knew about the book. I don't see why she would stop being a target. 

I admit, I am riled the hell up about this one. I ended up throwing out my spoilers policy to read fan reaction from a few years ago (and actually feel a lot better that I am not alone).

[gonzosgirrl]

9 minutes ago, The Companion said:

That being said, I am not sure what Sam was supposed to do that would have changed things. Is the argument that he should have burned the (apparently unburnable) book? Even then, Charlie would have been a target. Is it that he didn't have her in the bunker? Cause then magic Styne brother would have been in the same place as she was and could have killed her. Is it that he pulled her back in? She already knew about the book. I don't see why she would stop being a target. 

It's that Sam is pursuing a fix for the Mark through means which Dean expressly asked him not to, and which he is lying to Dean about. You're right - Charlie helping was entirely on Charlie. She did it out of love for Dean, as is Sam. It's Sam's fault in the same way that Kevin was Dean's fault - he created the circumstances that lead to it.  It's just more drama and angst that could have been avoided or resolved by a real, honest conversation - but then it wouldn't be Supernatural.

[Katy M]

14 minutes ago, The Companion said:

Not to mention the inexplicable ability to apparently teleport and track Charlie.

This one legit confuses me.  Who would be able to teleport?  Rowena?  I don't know that letting her loose would be such a great idea, plus, I don't know that she can.

[The Companion]

10 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

It's that Sam is pursuing a fix for the Mark through means which Dean expressly asked him not to, and which he is lying to Dean about. You're right - Charlie helping was entirely on Charlie. She did it out of love for Dean, as is Sam. It's Sam's fault in the same way that Kevin was Dean's fault - he created the circumstances that lead to it.  It's just more drama and angst that could have been avoided or resolved by a real, honest conversation - but then it wouldn't be Supernatural.

Yep. Charlie did this "for Dean." 

Yeah, I am still not getting the basics of this argument (not that you are particularly endorsing it, I just don't even see how Sam set anything in motion).

• Sam and Dean sent Charlie to find the book in There's No Place Like Home.
• The Stynes begin pursuing Charlie because of the book in the Book of the Damned. Dean has changed his mind about how to approach a cure, but Charlie was out of touch and now has the book and is being pursued. Sam doesn't burn the book but it isn't clear that 1. it could have been destroyed or 2. the Stynes would stop pursuing Charlie who had been in possession of the book and is known to them.
• Charlie agrees in secret to review the Book of the Damned, which is typically traceable but is currently shielded from the Stynes using the Witch's codex which we have no reason to believe is on the Stynes' radar. 
• Charlie leaves with her notes but doesn't have the book. There is no reason to believe she is traceable (they thought the book was being traced) but even if she was, nothing Sam did causes that to happen as the Stynes are still pursuing the Book of the Damned.
• She is killed when they try to get her notes. She very clearly indicates she doesn't have the book. 

If they wanted this to be Sam's fault, the Stynes needed to pursue the witch's codex OR the book had to be destroyable and tracked by the Stynes in Charlie's possession. Absent that, they were coming for Charlie because her prior association with the book, which was a search sanctioned by both brothers.

9 minutes ago, Katy M said:

This one legit confuses me.  Who would be able to teleport?  Rowena?  I don't know that letting her loose would be such a great idea, plus, I don't know that she can.

oh sorry. That was unclear. The Styne brother seemed to be able to move at lightning speed with one arm cut off into town with no vehicle. 

[Katy M]

12 minutes ago, The Companion said:

oh sorry. That was unclear. The Styne brother seemed to be able to move at lightning speed with one arm cut off into town with no vehicle. 

ah.  Well, maybe he stole a car out of the garage.

[FlickChick]

@The Companion, add me to the list of those absolutely furious at these writers killing off Charlie in such a horrendous way. In fact, here we are some five years later and I still am! I also believe it was the reason that Robbie Thompson left at the end of his contract. I am aware that Charlie and Robbie have both fans and those who were glad to see them go. Regardless, the view of Charlie lying in a bathtub with blood splatters everywhere was totally unnecessarily gruesome.  

[The Companion]

10 minutes ago, Katy M said:

ah.  Well, maybe he stole a car out of the garage.

Ha. At least someone remembered/found the garage. 

I am still a little bitter we don't get to see those classic cars and bikes up close. I have a lot of trouble believing Dean isn't in there working on those cars.

9 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

@The Companion, add me to the list of those absolutely furious at these writers killing off Charlie in such a horrendous way. In fact, here we are some five years later and I still am! I also believe it was the reason that Robbie Thompson left at the end of his contract. I am aware that Charlie and Robbie have both fans and those who were glad to see them go. Regardless, the view of Charlie lying in a bathtub with blood splatters everywhere was totally unnecessarily gruesome.  

I am actually glad I broke my no spoiler policy and risked googling it because it helps to know that a lot of fans were outraged. I agree about that image. Even for a show that often shows gore, the image of her discarded in the tub like that was just so wrong and disturbing. 

I get that characters die on this show. It isn't that she died (although I would personally argue that the show needs more diversity AND that the show is more interesting when it isn't just Sam and Dean are isolated and have no community), it's how and why she died and the way it was framed.