S20.E09: Week 8: America's Choice

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I guess Riker had to admit to some of his dance background this week, otherwise seeing him do an axle and then a double pirouette would have been ridiculous. It cracked me up that Carrie Ann thought he did a triple turn. Uh, no. That was a single inside pirouette followed by a double outside pirouette.

 

So now jazz means contemporary, freestyle, Broadway AND hip-hop? Can someone please take the producers to a basic entry-level dance class?

Ha, no kidding! Getting assigned jazz on this show is like being given a free pass to do whatever you want.

 

WTF re: Noah's tango scores.  Judges:  "It lacked all the elements of the tango, but since you're not physically capable of performing those elements, I'm not going to penalize you for that and am instead going to make up some score based on some other factor not really related to your ability to do the dance."

 

Props to Noah for being out there at all.  For real.  But there are lots of people who can't perform the elements of the tango for all sorts of not-really-their-fault kind of reasons.  Like age.  Or just, you know, no sense of timing, grace and/or coordination.  Not being a good dancer is not a character flaw.  If this show is really about capturing the mood of the dance and not about executing the elements, why don't we bring out Jasper Johns and have him paint us a portrait of the tango live on air?

ITA with all of this. I admire Noah for his service to his country and not letting his injuries stop him from living his life. I also give him points for coming on the show because it takes a lot of balls to let people watch you learn how to dance on national television. But that's where it ends because if the judges are going to make exceptions for people and NOT JUDGE THEIR DANCING, then what is the point? The way Len explained his reasons for not judging this routine means they should have someone in a wheelchair as a contestant and the pro can just dance around them while the celeb sits in a chair.

 

* For the record, I have seen some amazing performances by a dance troupe with people in wheelchairs so I am in no way saying that people in wheelchairs can't dance, just that Len seems to think that it's okay to bring someone on the show and then have them not dance for about two months and then say, "Well, obviously you are phyically incapable of the things that this dance requires so I'm not going to judge your dancing at all, but the non-dancing stuff you did was great!"

Edited May 7, 2015 by ElectricBoogaloo

[Rancide]

* For the record, I have seen some amazing performances by a dance troupe with people in wheelchairs so I am in no way saying that people in wheelchairs can't dance, just that Len seems to think that it's okay to bring someone on the show and then have them not dance for about two months and then say, "Well, obviously you are phyically incapable of the things that this dance requires so I'm not going to judge your dancing at all, but the non-dancing stuff you did was great!"

 

Right.  I am in no way implying that people with physical limitations can't or shouldn't dance, either.  Just that maybe very technical dances with very defined elements aren't going to be the best showcase of that person's strengths.

 

It's also not like I think Noah, or people with physical disabilities in general, shouldn't come on the show.  Every season I've ever seen of this show has featured at least one and usually several contestants (most of them not self-evidently disabled) who only seemed capable of performing somewhere between 5 and 25 percent of the required elements of their assigned dance.  And, great, that's part of the show!  I've just never seen one of those contestants be told "oh, well, we're going to ignore all that, and here are some 8s and 9s!"

[NikSac]

ITA with all of this. I admire Noah for his service to his country and not letting his injuries stop him from living his life. I also give him points for coming on the show because it takes a lot of balls to let people watch you learn how to dance on national television. But that's where it ends because if the judges are going to make exceptions for people and NOT JUDGE THEIR DANCING, then what is the point? The way Len explained his reasons for not judging this routine means they should have someone in a wheelchair as a contestant and the pro can just dance around them while the celeb sits in a chair.

 

* For the record, I have seen some amazing performances by a dance troupe with people in wheelchairs so I am in no way saying that people in wheelchairs can't dance, just that Len seems to think that it's okay to bring someone on the show and then have them not dance for about two months and then say, "Well, obviously you are phyically incapable of the things that this dance requires so I'm not going to judge your dancing at all, but the non-dancing stuff you did was great!"

 

As someone who spent approx 8 years of my life in a wheelchair (ages 10-17) I totally agree. You can dance, but you can't do these traditional dances the way they are meant to be done (depending on your physical issues). It sucks, but it's real. You can have fun anyway and put your heart into it, which took me awhile to learn, but you're just not going to do be able to do some of this stuff the way it 'should' be done. And that's okay! It doesn't mean the person who can't dance well deserves 9 and 10 scores every time, though.

[Rancide]

You know, now that I think about it, although I do not enjoy his dancing, my resentment over the Noah situation is way more about the scoring than about Noah's continued presence in general.  Give the man the 4s, 5s, and 6s he deserves, and if America gives him enough votes to keep him safe, then great.  

 

This show has never been (nor does it have to be) about crowning the "best" dancer.  If it were, there'd presumably be no need for audience voting at all.  The judges' treatment of Noah situation has just started feeling very condescending.  He's a big boy.  I'm sure he can handle being scored on the big boy scale.

[2LeftFeet]

As someone who spent approx 8 years of my life in a wheelchair (ages 10-17) I totally agree. You can dance, but you can't do these traditional dances the way they are meant to be done (depending on your physical issues). It sucks, but it's real. You can have fun anyway and put your heart into it, which took me awhile to learn, but you're just not going to do be able to do some of this stuff the way it 'should' be done. And that's okay! It doesn't mean the person who can't dance well deserves 9 and 10 scores every time, though.

This was a great post! ITA with your points. I'd also add, even those who have fully functioning bodies can be 'disabled' due to absolute lack of musicality, two left feet, etc. I'd not want to see judges say, 'Well, you've no timing, musicality, and are painfully awkward on the floor, but since you can't dance many of the basic elements, I'm giving you a higher score anyway.' Some people simply aren't able to do as much, whether due to a medical/physical issue, or another challenge and I don't want to see either rewarded beyond what they've truly earned. That said, I also don't expect people in these categories to be judged the same as a Nicole S, for example. There is a balance, but it's painful when the judges score higher than warranted as a compensatory measure. I find it patronizing, to be honest.

[Uke]

I think part of the problem is having only one amputee on the show at a time. If they had, for example, Amy and Noah on during the same season, or 2 war vets on this season,  the judges would kind of be forced to compare and contrast.  The way they're doing it one at a time means Noah (and previously Amy, YMMV) gets clobbered with verbal kisses and overscores which of course, in real terms, harms the better dancers. A 9 for Noah may have different meaning than a 9 for Riker but on the scoreboard they are exactly the same.  They don't dare give him deserved 4s, 5s, or 6s, as it would look like they are being mean to a vet.

[sinkwriter]

I'm not sure having Amy and Noah in one season would even be fair, especially because Amy didn't have some of the limitations that Noah did, so she could do a lot more. Noah would have suffered in the comparison. It wouldn't have been fair to Noah because even though I'm not particularly entertained by watching him dance and think he should have gone home by now, I think he does try as hard as he possibly can. Yet his best would be far overshadowed by Amy's best, and again it would be something he simply cannot control. There's only so much he can do within dance with only one arm and one leg.

 

At least, within the scope of this competition, within the hands of Sharna and the DWTS team. Though I imagine somehow with more time than one week between dances and given a talented choreographer, someone could help Noah do amazing things. I may not have liked his trio dance but I was impressed with the shapes he and the two women made when in shadow -- like Bruno said, "living sculptures." But creating a full dance out of something like that would require much more time and preparation, not a competition that goes so quickly like this one does.

Edited May 7, 2015 by sinkwriter

[NikSac]

You know, now that I think about it, although I do not enjoy his dancing, my resentment over the Noah situation is way more about the scoring than about Noah's continued presence in general.  Give the man the 4s, 5s, and 6s he deserves, and if America gives him enough votes to keep him safe, then great.  

 

This show has never been (nor does it have to be) about crowning the "best" dancer.  If it were, there'd presumably be no need for audience voting at all.  The judges' treatment of Noah situation has just started feeling very condescending.  He's a big boy.  I'm sure he can handle being scored on the big boy scale.

 

 

This was a great post! ITA with your points. I'd also add, even those who have fully functioning bodies can be 'disabled' due to absolute lack of musicality, two left feet, etc. I'd not want to see judges say, 'Well, you've no timing, musicality, and are painfully awkward on the floor, but since you can't dance many of the basic elements, I'm giving you a higher score anyway.' Some people simply aren't able to do as much, whether due to a medical/physical issue, or another challenge and I don't want to see either rewarded beyond what they've truly earned. That said, I also don't expect people in these categories to be judged the same as a Nicole S, for example. There is a balance, but it's painful when the judges score higher than warranted as a compensatory measure. I find it patronizing, to be honest.

 

Great posts - and thanks for the compliment on mine  ITA on the judging in particular. I thought about it more and it doesn't bother me that Noah can't do a perfect <insert dance name here> - it bothers me that he gets such high scores from the judges for it. During the time I was in the wheelchair I learned to have fun dancing, and I probably could've learned the right arm movements for some formal dances, but I certainly couldn't do the leg or hip movements (heck still can't, even though I'm at least on my feet these days). It would've felt very weird to enter a dance competition knowing I couldn't do a lot of it and get high scores. I agree it comes across as kind of patronizing.  The audience vote to me is different - they're not saying he did the dance perfectly, they're saying they like him and want him to win anyway. (just my opinion and all)

[Mittengirl]

I don't think it is fair to blame the judges for the wonky scoring that Noah has gotten. I doubt the casting people consult the judges before signing people. The judges are stuck trying not to look like asses by being mean to the poor disabled (old, injured, whatever) person. I think the judges have no idea how to fairly score these contestants. My guess is that whoever picks the contestants gives very little thought to the actual limitations of some disabilities. I strongly suspect they had no idea how much of a difference there is between below and above the knee amputees.

Unfortunately, I suspect TPtB will continue to push the limits of casting physically limited contestants. They haven't cast a blind person yet, so we have that to look forward to.

I have wondered how much of a heads up the pros are given before being assigned a star with limitations. How would you like to be Sharna and be surprised with having to choreograph for someone who not only has limitations on moving his knee, but also only has one hand. I don't think it would be fair to spring that on someone the same way they find out they get an ice dancer to work with.

[MsPH]

Unfortunately, I suspect TPtB will continue to push the limits of casting physically limited contestants. They haven't cast a blind person yet, so we have that to look forward to.

 

I must be a horrible person, because this made me laugh out loud. Just the mental image of a blind person getting lost on that stage and the judges giving him/her 9's, because it's not their fault they can't see where they're going...

 

There's a lot you can do despite disabilities, but there are also things you can't and I don't really see what good it does to anyone to pretend you can. We wouldn't be calling them disabilities if they weren't a hindrance in any way. Noah can do surprisingly much and it's great he's been able to show that to the world, but it's still not enough at this stage in a ballroom dance competition. Popularity contest sure, but I wish that wasn't all this show is, since it kind of undermines all the hard work these people do to learn to dance.

[Alapaki]

I don't think it is fair to blame the judges for the wonky scoring that Noah has gotten. I doubt the casting people consult the judges before signing people. The judges are stuck trying not to look like asses by being mean to the poor disabled (old, injured, whatever) person. I think the judges have no idea how to fairly score these contestants.

 

 

I agree the Judges are put in a difficult situation.  However, when Len literally says that Noah is unable to do the particular dance's moves and therefore he's going to score on something other than the actual dancing, there's something wrong.

 

I have no problem with the audience voting for Noah on whatever criteria they want.  But the Judges are supposed to be scoring on dancing ability.  Otherwise, there really is no reason to have the Judges there.

[smiley13]

I agree the Judges are put in a difficult situation.  However, when Len literally says that Noah is unable to do the particular dance's moves and therefore he's going to score on something other than the actual dancing, there's something wrong.

 

I have no problem with the audience voting for Noah on whatever criteria they want.  But the Judges are supposed to be scoring on dancing ability.  Otherwise, there really is no reason to have the Judges there.

We went through the same thing with Amy and anytime it was mentioned that she was being judged differently, people were blasted for saying it.  At least Noah has not done most of a dance sitting down at this point.  I enjoy seeing what Noah can accomplish, but really wish he was with another partner.

[truthaboutluv]

At least Noah has not done most of a dance sitting down at this point.

 

 

And she did more dancing in all that "sitting down" than Noah has done all season. I will forever love the "Amy only sat on a stool all season" meme. In my opinion, if Noah's being on this show has done anything, it is to show and prove in my opinion, just how much dancing Amy actually did during her season. But being that she was "cursed" with being paired up with Derek, I don't expect her to ever get any credit for her efforts. I would also add that Amy was by far a better performer than Noah. One of the problems with Noah in my opinion is not just his lack of technical ability because of his limitations but that he's kind of horrible performer - very stone faced and expressionless. The 70's dance (that was a Jazz right) was probably the only time I saw real performance ability from him. 

Edited May 8, 2015 by truthaboutluv

[magpye29]

They haven't cast a blind person yet, so we have that to look forward to.

 

At least we know their pro would probably keep them in hold!

 

I don't mind having differently abled stars on the show, but I think the judges should have to give two sets of marks for all the couples, one for artistry and one for technical merit.  I think that would actually be more fair to everyone, because it would take into account mistakes in otherwise wonderful routines.

Edited May 8, 2015 by magpye29

[NikSac]

At least we know their pro would probably keep them in hold!

 

I don't mind having differently abled stars on the show, but I think the judges should have to give two sets of marks for all the couples, one for artistry and one for technical merit.  I think that would actually be more fair to everyone, because it would take into account mistakes in otherwise wonderful routines.

 

I think this is a really good idea. One for artistry, one for technical, and then of course there'd still be the audience vote. It would still allow for wonderful routines to go through, without the pretense that we just saw an amazing Waltz (or whatever dance) when we (and I would imagine the performers too) know we didn't, at least from a technical perspective.

[tearbender]

We went through the same thing with Amy and anytime it was mentioned that she was being judged differently, people were blasted for saying it.  At least Noah has not done most of a dance sitting down at this point.  I enjoy seeing what Noah can accomplish, but really wish he was with another partner.

Poor Sharna. If only she had the vision to grab a nice piece of furniture and plunk Noah down on it for an entire routine. Maybe then she'd get some pats on the head and praise for redefining choreography for our generation.

 

I vaguely remember rumors of Stevie Wonder expressing interest in the show a few years ago.

[OakGoblinFly]

At least we know their pro would probably keep them in hold!

 

I don't mind having differently abled stars on the show, but I think the judges should have to give two sets of marks for all the couples, one for artistry and one for technical merit.  I think that would actually be more fair to everyone, because it would take into account mistakes in otherwise wonderful routines.

 

 

I've been saying this for a while ..... since the judges have thrown out paddles one through five, give two sets of scores (each one through five) .... then Noah can get is four or five for "performance" and "inspiring us all" (bleck!) and a one or two for technical ability.  

[Andiethewestie]

I've been saying this for a while ..... since the judges have thrown out paddles one through five, give two sets of scores (each one through five) .... then Noah can get is four or five for "performance" and "inspiring us all" (bleck!) and a one or two for technical ability.  

 

They did do that in Season 10 and 11 for an episode  I thought it was great to get the technical and the artist marks.  It did not last, I suspect because the judges have to actually do the work to justify the marks instead of throwing out platitudes.  

[CED9]

They did do that in Season 10 and 11 for an episode I thought it was great to get the technical and the artist marks. It did not last, I suspect because the judges have to actually do the work to justify the marks instead of throwing out platitudes.

I wasn't a fan of All Stars, but I think the 1/2 points was one thing they did right. Not sure why they don't use it regularly.

[Saylii]

I can't blame the judges for scoring Noah how they do.

The judging has always been 1 part technical ability and 2 parts entertainment value. Even more so in the later seasons with the addition of troupe members in the dance. How many times have they scored not-quite a Rumba, or not-quite a Salsa with equally high marks to what Noah is pulling this season?

Also, with how the votes are structured, 4's and 5's for Noah for mostly technical ability when every one else is pulling 9's and 10's for mostly entertainment value means that he's has lead in viewer votes, by far, to stay on the show. If that many people are watching for him and voting for him, does it make it fun for anybody making Noah constantly scrape by with scores just barely better then Master P.

I think Len, with his comment, was really trying to throw Noah under the bus. It's pretty obvious that there are some judging difficulties with an amputee dancing classic ballroom. I wouldn't be surprised to see that Noah's votes went down this week because hardcore fans think the fix is in. Maybe even enough to keep him out of the finals...

Edited May 10, 2015 by Saylii

[Uke]

I thought the separate technical and performance scores was a great idea and should have been continued, even though the higher total points awarded for the night would cause the percentage margins to be smaller between the couples. It would also give the "judges" a tiny bit more credibility if they handled the differences responsibility (big if, I know!).  So CAI can gush all she wants and give the hunky guys 9s and 10s for their hotness (Noah) but would also have to state her score on actual technical ability. Or a dance could be recognized as a beautiful performance but also recognize that there wasn't enough content (Rumer's rumba, IMO), etc.  Unfortunately, timing of the show is so messed up and 4 judges make the time squeeze even worse. I'd like to go back to 3 judges and have the two separate scores.

[Andiethewestie]

I think Rumer had a lot of content in their Rumba. The song is a Rumba, it is not an Argentine Tango. Even though Kym Johnson turned it into a AT for season 12, The 1997 film on which the dance was inspired had the classic Rumba content that Rumer displayed, the basics, cucarachas, cuban break, opening out, rope turn, allemana,,I just loved it, especially when Julianne mentioned it as well, the fan to Allemana was gorgeous. There are accent dynamics in the music which people might consider tango, but the overall beat is definitely rumba..  I agree it is not a Rumba that DWTS is known for, which is a lyrical dance with Rumba elements, very often I barely recognize all the lyrical  as rumba. This dance I clearly delineated rumba steps and I enjoyed it as Rumba I remember.

Edited May 10, 2015 by Andiethewestie

[LadyArcadia]

Rumer - Holy overscoring batman. Apparently the judges and I were watching completely different dances with Rumer's rumba. It was beautiful, she looked beautiful, I finally saw some tenderness from her, though it was still dramatic and intense at points but what I did not see was a Rumba. I saw virtually no rumba hip movement from Rumer, no rumba walks and yet the judges deemed that a perfect rumba. Well okay then. The Paso was miles better because at least it was a recognizable Paso and them having traditional Paso music really helped I thought. That said, I didn't love it. It was good but didn't really hit and impact for me the way some of my favorite Paso's on the show have done. But after seeing her get a perfect score for a barely recognizable rumba, I knew it was a given she was going to end the night with a perfect score. 

 

As a dancer, I'm not sure what you saw that made you think that wasn't a Rumba.  That Rumba was true to form, straight up, no-frills Rumba. And it was fantastic. I could clearly see hip action, toe leads, excellent counter balance hip connection, and basic core syllabus steps - including several that are in my Rumba routine (that made me happy :)  ).  That Rumba was the best I've ever seen on the show and deserved the scores.

 

Editing to add:

I agree it is not a Rumba that DWTS is known for, which is a lyrical dance with Rumba elements, very often I barely recognize all the lyrical  as rumba. This dance I clearly delineated rumba steps and I enjoyed it as Rumba I remember.

 

 

Yes! This!!  I'm not saying the poster I quoted above is in this category, but it kinda drives me nuts to hear people praise the lyrical mismatch they've been trying to pass as a Rumba on this show.  The showcase element of the show is creating confusion on what the dances really are.  Rumer's dance was praised as "basic" because it wasn't a bastardized version for entertainment. Rumer and Val performed a true Rumba, as it should be.  And I'm glad many saw the beauty in it.

Edited May 11, 2015 by LadyArcadia

[realdancemom]

Rumer and Val's rumba was my favorite of that night.  It was a true rumba.  I also agree that the general audience might be confused because a lot of the DWTS rumbas look like contemporary dances with some hip action.

 

ETA - One of the reasons why I also love Rumer and Val's rumba is the passion that they created.  They just showed that you don't need a real romance or showmance to show the proper emotion for a rumba.

Edited May 11, 2015 by realdancemom