Emma Swan: 1000% done with your infuriating optimism

[stealinghome]

Has Emma even held Snowflake yet?

To be fair, has Charming? :)

[Shanna Marie]

In fairness, Emma's hardly had the time to go apartment hunting. They said in this episode that it was "last night" when Emma admitted she was afraid of Hook dying, the same day that they found DQ in the woods, and that could hardly have been more than a few days after the whole time travel adventure. Emma's spent that whole time either freezing to death, chasing after DQ or planning a date with Hook. So I don't consider it that out of character for her to have stayed with her parents for a week. I wonder if the "I need to find a place" might become a running gag, where she keeps saying it but doesn't have time. She could remark something like "Oh, look, an apartment for rent sign, I'll have to come back and check it out" as she runs past a building, chasing a snow monster.

[regularlyleaded]

IMO, either the writers think that sticking the Charmings in the same apartment counts as giving us 'moments' and developing their relationship

I think that's it exactly, miley-avril. Over the course of this show it's been noticed by many viewers that the writers' go-to way of dealing with Emma and her parents together is that they write these "blink and you missed it" domestic scenes that take place in the loft. They don't really talk to each other, it's all just superficially handled by them sharing living space. While these short scenes of domesticity are nice (e.g., Emma's  date night scenes with her parents and Elsa from newest episode, "The Apprentice", was cute and I liked it), it's also annoying because it makes no sense in terms of how they got there. That was especially my biggest gripe with season 2B (and still is my biggest gripe with this show -- Emma and her parents don't have meaningful conversations about their "ish" with each other!)

 

Even though there were these huge "giant elephant in the room" sized issues that Emma should (still) have and her parents should have and they should be trying to hash out, the writing never touched it. And later at the end of season 3, these same issues and the additional ones that popped up in 3A (Echo Cave and what should've been huge ramifications of that, for one), were never ever dealt with. The culmination of all these problem was that the writers just said in the S3 finale, almost point blank, that every single problem between Emma and her parents was all Emma's fault. She was closed off so they gave-up on her, but now that Emma has learned her lesson it's all done and dealt with and they are one big happy family. The writers just laid the blame entirely on Emma, and Magic Eraser'd away all their relationship problems. And I, for one, think that's a metric-ton of horse-shit and it makes me want to flip all sorts of tables (UGH!!).

 

This late in the game though, the only conclusion I can draw from all of this is that the writers don't think it's important, don't care to deal with it, and seriously don't think there's anything to be dealt with anymore (because Emma + her parents is all fixed now), and we're surely never going to get the conversations that I for one was looking forward to getting. Emotional pay-off: ZERO. Personally, this will always be my biggest disappointment with this show and what makes this show the most disappointing show I've ever watched. (Which makes the fact that this is a show purportedly about "hope" just straight-up hilarious because I have none on this front.)

Edited October 21, 2014 by regularlyleaded

[Rumsy4]

Emma and Henry staying at Granny's makes more sense than have them all crammed in with her parents and Elsa. But as others have noted, this is the only way we are getting family moments with Emma and her parents. I think this arrangement will continue all of S4, because lbr, the whole season will span the course of two weeks at best.

[regularlyleaded]

To be fair, has Charming? :)

Actually, he has! I had to go back and check, but in the 3x21/3x22? He be holding the baby! :)

Season 4 though has been all Snow, but I think that they had to have that because Goodwin has very little screen time and they had to therefore take all that time to make their point about Snow never putting him down. And BTW, point well made, show, because people that I know who are very casual viewers of the show were like "Does she put that baby down? EVER???"

Edited October 21, 2014 by regularlyleaded

[KAOS Agent]

I'm on board with Emma getting an apartment simply because it offers a change of scenery. The loft is really small and it does pull me out of the story every time I realize that Snowing, a newborn, Emma, Henry and now Elsa are all living there. How does that even work? And as much as Emma likes having family around, anyone who grew up the way she did would be very into having her own space, somewhere where she can be alone and maintain a level of privacy. The screaming newborn would add yet another layer to the idea of her needing her own place.

[Curio]

And as much as Emma likes having family around, anyone who grew up the way she did would be very into having her own space, somewhere where she can be alone and maintain a level of privacy. The screaming newborn would add yet another layer to the idea of her needing her own place.

 

And if this show had writers who cared about writing character moments... we could actually get a fun scene of Emma sleeping, getting woken up by the screaming baby, and then deciding to go down to the kitchen for a snack, where Snow is already at the fridge getting formula. Then Snow and Emma could have a midnight chat while Snow tries to get the baby back to sleep while Emma looks at classifieds on her phone. But since none of that involves discussing the villain of the week or any plot twists, it will never happen.

Edited October 22, 2014 by Curio

[Camera One]

I'm fine with Emma living there for now, since I'm assuming Henry is splitting his time with Regina?  So she has the upstairs to herself half the time.  But Elsa living there too is just ridiculous... does she live in the refrigerator?

Edited October 22, 2014 by Camera One

[YaddaYadda]

But Elsa living there too is just ridiculous... does she live in the refrigerator?

 

Well, the cold never bothered her anyway, so... (too many of those?  Overkill?)

[Rumsy4]

This episode was literally the worst in terms of Emma's character development. Nobody puts up with such shitty treatment from anyone but children or lovers (or the mentally ill). Unless the writers have really changed their mind of making Swan Queen canon, I really cannot begin to fathom why Emma would be okay with being treated like shit for saving a life by the woman who ruined countless lives.

 

Some people on tumblr are apparently saying that this shows great character development from Emma because she was the bigger person, and recognized her own behavioral patterns in Regina. But I'm like, what?? The parallels only go so far. Emma hasn't murdered, raped or abused anyone. She literally saved someone's life, and is being piled on by Regina for it. Sure, sometimes our actions may unintentionally hurt people. But that means, we just stop living and make no decisions in case it messes with someone's life.

 

And to call the end of a four-day relationship as a life being ruined is ridiculous. This woman would rather have been responsible for the execution of her True Love's wife in the past than have her hand unsullied by one more death. And Emma wants to be her friend. And yet again, it's all Emma's fault because she is unforgiving, and pushes people away. I am close to the point of stopping this show, but as Jean said in another thread, it's like a bad crack habit I can't seem to break.

Edited October 27, 2014 by Rumsy4

[Emma]

I'm ignoring this episode ever happened. Or the Emma-Regina scenes anway. That way Emma's character isn't ruined for me. She would never act like she did last night.

 

Did Adam tweet about Emma being the better person? I checked his feed but don't see it but many posters are referring to it.

[YaddaYadda]

I'm just going to focus on Emma and what she might have learned from her past experience because she is leaps and bounds better as a person and she very clearly regrets how things went with Lily who was a pretty desperate girl for someone who might be able to understand her.  Regina can just take a leap off something tall.

 

I just find the whole transitions for Emma to be extremely warped.  She runs from her foster home in Boston, ends up in Minnesota somewhere, meets Lily, they spend a few hours together, then Emma is thrown in with DQ who seems to be a nutcase, she probably runs away from there and lands in Portland where she meets Neal, then proceeds to land in jail thanks to him and pregnant.  Talk about a shitty few years!

 

I'm sort of hoping that Emma's epiphany regarding Lily is the set up for her understand what's going on with Hook.  Emma has the tendency to just freeze him out and often times, it's just not right.  Now he deserves to be chewed out for being an idiot, but he's also been an understand and supportive idiot.  She can also lock him up for doing Rumple's bidding.  She locked up Will for less than that after all.

Edited October 27, 2014 by YaddaYadda

[KAOS Agent]

I knew wishing for some character development for Emma was going to backfire massively. I actually do like the lesson Emma learned with Lily in that once she grew up a bit, she realized that her cold and unforgiving attitude towards Lily was wrong and she regretted it. 15 year old girls are highly emotional, impulsive and irrational. For someone like Emma, who'd always felt alone and unloved, seeing someone else run from and deny the home and family she herself had always craved had to have been a crushing blow. In her mind, Lily was Cecilia, the little girl whose adoption ultimately caused Emma to take off. Emma's complete rejection of her new friend was entirely understandable.

 

However, it makes me so mad that because of the very poorly drawn parallel where Emma sees herself entirely in the wrong, she was unable to stand up and fight for herself when Regina's hypocrisy reached epic levels. This happened not because Emma was the better person, it was an OOC experience completely driven by the writers' false parallel. It's also sad because if these writers truly cared about Regina's character growth, they would have had Emma stand up and make Regina face the fact that her delusional fantasies that everyone is to blame but herself are just that, delusions. Both characters suffered in this terrible attempt at creating parallels.

Edited October 27, 2014 by KAOS Agent

[angelwoody]

This episode made me want to compile a list of other "friendships" like Emma & Regina from movies/ TV that would have really improved those stories...

 

Laurie Strode & Michael Myers from Halloween.  He was just a little boy when he was clearly damaged by a sister who was not properly supervising him.  All of his later murders were all a result of that deep hurt.  But could Laurie take a moment to put herself in his shoes?  NOOOOO.

 

Clarice Starling & Hannibal Lector from Silence of the Lambs.  Obviously, Hannibal's palate was just too refined for Clarice's small town tastes.  Would she even try to see things from his perspective?  So Judgey!!

[RadioGirl27]

I'm sort of hoping that Emma's epiphany regarding Lily is the set up for her understand what's going on with Hook. Emma has the tendency to just freeze him out and often times, it's just not right. Now he deserves to be chewed out for being an idiot, but he's also been an understand and supportive idiot. She can also lock him up for doing Rumple's bidding. She locked up Will for less than that after all.

This is what I thought watching the episode, that they were doing some foreshadowing with Emma's reaction to Hook and his dirty secret. That with him, she is going to act diferently because she knows realizes that the way she reacted with Lily only hurted her, both of them.

[Jean]

Forget about Hook, I want justice for Eva. She didn't even lie! Or keep a secret. She told nothing but the truth.

I didn't watch any of the black hole scenes so I'm not going to say much. The spoilers were enough for me to know they were going to be complete shit, much like everything involving that soul sucking scum.

However I did watch the flashback scenes and here's my problem with them. I think I've said this once before too. They always set Emma up on these situations which might explain her attitude and her gripes about lonliness, being unloved etc, but they only do it so they can go out of their way to invalidate them and always put her in the wrong. They did it with Snow, Neal and now Lily. Instead of focusing or even balancing it out, on the part that Emma partly rejected Lily because Lily was rejecting the very thing that Emma desperately wanted, they chose instead to hammer home the grudge thing. Lame.

It makes me not want to see what they have in store with the DQ but I really like EM as DQ so....

[regularlyleaded]

Bringing this over from the "Breaking Glass" thread.

To turn the topic from Regina/Emma, can we discuss th the part of Emma's conversation with Lily where she said she realized that she was too old for anyone to look at her as their child? Now this can go back to part of Emma's rejection of her parents since she had decided parents were not for her by the age of 15, but this goes as a rather sickening callback to Snow saying Emma's not a baby anymore and they can't have the kind of relationship she wanted because of it. I've given up on the show ever addressing Snow's confession, but Emma telling Lily that she had already given up at such a young age makes Snow's Echo Cave confession that much more awful for Emma.

I agree, KAOS Agent. Like you, I also don't think this is something that the writers will ever touch upon, but after hearing that insight into Emma's belief that she'll never be wanted because she's too old, a conclusion that she came to at the age of 15 (and there's nothing to make me think she has changed her mind since then), it does add another layer of hurt on Emma's part for what Snow said to her (and David) in Echo Cave — (grown-up) Emma isn't what she wanted.

I think the end scene of “Breaking Glass” where Emma pulls out that box containing “What was left of [her] childhood” that she had locked away and hidden in her office adds some credence to the fact that Emma took Snow’s confession to heart. If I'm not mistaken that's one of the boxes she was unpacking when she moved into the loft pre-breaking of Curse 1.0. In "True North", IIRC, Mary Margaret came across the box of mementos and the baby blanket and held it to herself, momentarily transfixed. But now after all that has happened (Echo Caves and such), and though Emma is living once again in the loft and has embraced Storybrooke as her home and Snow and David as her parents, she has consciously taken the box out of the loft, hidden and locked it away (literally and metaphorically) along with all those emotional vestiges of her childhood that she still carries because she feels that, well, no one wants them; no one wants to know that part of her and now it’s too late, so she’s locked them away out of the way where they won’t bother anyone.

 

These items and what they represent are of course meaningful to Emma, it’s her life and past, and everything, as Hook called it, from Emma’s “beginnings”; it’s what makes Emma Emma, but the only person that seems to be interested in who Emma is (just Emma. Not Emma The Savior or Emma The Princess. Only Emma), is Hook.  And so when Hook asks to see, to be allowed into Emma's past, she shows him; not without trepidation, but she shares it with him nonetheless.

Which sadly, is a very different reception than what she’s gotten from Snow and David. Not that they don’t care, but they are very focused on what they as parents lost. They lament the moments and years they missed of raising Emma, of raising a child, but I don’t think it’s sunk in for them that while they have their baby do-over and get to experience what they lost with Emma in some form, Emma doesn’t get to have a childhood do-over. Those pieces of her that were unwanted as a child, sadly, remain still unwanted.

 

As interested as Snow and David are in taking pictures of Emma now as she goes on a date and almost weirdly (though it's kinda cute) pretend that she’s some sort of teen, there’s a lack of curiosity (IMO) on their part to know basic things about Emma’s life and past. Yes, Emma is guarded, but Hook has proved that persistence and patience and showing Emma that you can be trusted goes a long way. Indeed, just in “Breaking Glass” we saw that Emma is willing to share, but you’ve gotta work for it. And I just don’t think Snow and David will ever work for it, because now that they have the baby that they always wanted, they get to live those lost moments with that baby.

 

Emma will never just openly mention her childhood to her parents and so I think it’s a part of Emma that will forever remain lost to Snow and David because they just don’t ask. Perhaps Snow and David find that ignorance is bliss. They have a general idea that Emma had it rough, but perhaps not knowing the details assuages their guilt and allows them to move on with a new child. If so that’s rather sad, because I think it would benefit Emma’s emotional well being to be able to share pieces of her childhood with them, but I honestly don’t think that’s ever going to happen. Not on this show with these writers anyhow.

Edited October 28, 2014 by regularlyleaded

[YaddaYadda]

One of the things I wondered about when watching the scene with Emma and Hook watching that video was whether Snow and David knew what younger Emma looked like.

[regularlyleaded]

I had that same thought, YaddaYadda. I imagine that Emma and Hook would show it to the others as proof that The Snow Queen has been messing with her (and Elsa's) memories and that there is something much bigger at play. And that's fine for moving the plot forward, but a large part of me wants Snow and David to see that video and have some sort of freaking reaction, for crying out loud! Right now they're so focused on BDO (understandably) and yet, they just got Emma back (again!) and she's openly embraced them as her parents and opened herself to that relationship, but they're all back to Stepford-ish moments between Emma and her parents. Despite the cutesy date night shenanigans and wahtnot, it drives me up the wall and down the other side that these people don't talk about their "ish". Unfortunately, I think all of this is gonna be something that happens in Offscreensville, assuming that Emma shows the tape to other people at all. They may just take Emma's word for it and Hook can corroborate it, so...

Edited October 28, 2014 by regularlyleaded

[Camera One]

YaddaYadda. I imagine that Emma and Hook would show it to the others as proof that The Snow Queen has been messing with her (and Elsa's) memories and that there is something much bigger at play. And that's fine for moving the plot forward, but a large part of me wants Snow and David to see that video and have some sort of freaking reaction, for crying out loud!  Unfortunately, I think all of this is gonna be something that happens in Offscreensville, assuming that Emma shows the tape to other people at all. They may just take Emma's word for it and Hook can corroborate it, so...

 

Unfortunately, I think it will be off-screen as well, since Emma/parents is not who the writers want to focus on or care to write for.  Their priority is clearly Emma/Hook and Emma/Regina.  There's a tiny chance they could open the next episode with it, have Snow and Charming teary eyed, but before they can say a word, Grumpy comes in and says the Snow Queen just froze the ocean or something, and we're onto the crisis of the week.

Edited October 28, 2014 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

I think for Emma there is a difference between sharing that stuff with Hook and sharing it with her parents. For one thing, a lot of Emma's past would hurt her parents immensely and she doesn't want to add to their grief at losing their daughter. Her feeling is that it's over and no one can fix it, so there's no need to rehash it with her parents. For example, I could see Emma acknowledging to Hook that she eats fast due to a childhood food protection habit, but no way would she say that to her mother. The other thing is that Hook is very, very respectful of Emma's privacy and her walls. He asked each time if she would share, made sure she was okay and commented that he was interested in her, but he also didn't push or ask probing questions about the stuff she was sharing. Mary Margaret would be all over Emma with questions about who Lily was, how they met, where was she when she took the video, etc. She would be over-interested and that's not something Emma would want to share. It was pretty obvious to Hook that even though they were watching a cute video of a couple teenagers acting silly and having fun, it was anything but pleasant for Emma to watch. He asked one question about who Lily was and left it at Emma's response of just an old friend. There was a reason he put his arm around her at that point.

 

I'd love it if the video tape of Emma at the Snow Queen's place was shown to her parents and all we see is Emma fast forwarding through the beginning stuff to get to the Snow Queen over her parents' objections. It doesn't need to really contain any follow through over it other than Emma saying they can watch it later if they want.

[stealinghome]

You know, I used to think that the show would never show Emma/Snow/Charming really talking about Emma's lost childhood because it would make Regina look too bad, but after this past episode--and the total lack of self-awareness they have in writing Regina--I have to conclude that that's not it, and that the show is just fundamentally uninterested in Emma's relationship with her parents.

 

Which just blows my mind, because Emma's relationships with Snow and Charming should be hands-down the most interesting relationships on the show.

 

The other thing is that Hook is very, very respectful of Emma's privacy and her walls. He asked each time if she would share, made sure she was okay and commented that he was interested in her, but he also didn't push or ask probing questions about the stuff she was sharing. Mary Margaret would be all over Emma with questions about who Lily was, how they met, where was she when she took the video, etc.

I think David has generally been pretty aware and respectful of Emma's boundaries, but yeah, you'd have to get him alone, because Mary Margaret would be way too pushy and wouldn't really read the signs that Emma doesn't want to talk.

[Dani-Ellie]

Which just blows my mind, because Emma's relationships with Snow and Charming should be hands-down the most interesting relationships on the show.

They should be, shouldn't they? Honestly, this shit would freakin' write itself. I will never understand the complete squandering of this dramatic gold mine the writers had created for themselves.

[regularlyleaded]

I think for Emma there is a difference between sharing that stuff with Hook and sharing it with her parents. For one thing, a lot of Emma's past would hurt her parents immensely and she doesn't want to add to their grief at losing their daughter. Her feeling is that it's over and no one can fix it, so there's no need to rehash it with her parents. For example, I could see Emma acknowledging to Hook that she eats fast due to a childhood food protection habit, but no way would she say that to her mother. [...]

 I don’t disagree that Emma sharing things about her past with Hook is different from sharing with her parents. Snow definitely has issues pushing too hard and too fast and that scares the beejeezus out of Emma. But with that said, I think it’s possible for Snow and David be able to get to know parts of Emma’s past, and tbh, I think it would behoove them to do so.

 

Much of the following gets into my personal headcanon concerning this situation (but since this show will never touch this subject, I dare the writers to contradict me! ;), but IMO Emma’s past is intrinsic to who she is now and if Snow and David want to really connect and truly get to know their daughter, I think it means getting to know about her past. Personally (again, just my headcanon talking), I don’t think Emma wants to necessarily keep her past a complete secret from them. Yes she’s very private person, but I think some of that stems from the fact that in her whole life no one ever showed an interest in her. No one really wanted to get to know her, at least no one that wasn’t looking to get something from her, and so Emma’s been conditioned to see sharing about herself as a vulnerability and hence she doesn’t share unless she’s decided to fully trust the person with whom she’s sharing (as we’ve seen with Hook).

 

I agree that a reason Emma doesn’t talk about her past with Snow and David is because she doesn’t want to hurt them (TBH I think that’s the main reason). But I think some part of Emma wants them to know who she was and still is, and wants them to tell her that they accept everything about her including her rough and tumultuous past. And while I think it’s compassionate and very characteristic of Emma to be thinking of her parents feelings and trying to protect them, I think this is one of those times where she’s gotta let them take the hit and be her parents even if it’s going to cause them some heartache. Because ultimately, it will be helpful to all of them not just Emma.

 

But again, Snow and David will never push it, Emma will never ever approach it, and this whole debate will surely remain theoretical because, ultimately, the writers will never, ever, ever go there.

Edited October 28, 2014 by regularlyleaded

[Emma]

Emma should be the most interesting character to write for. They have an actress who can deliver the goods. It's a shame Adam and Eddy don't grasp that like many of the posters here.

[YaddaYadda]

I'm having awful flashbacks (Neverbacks?) of Emma trying to unlock the map and Snow and David encouraging her to say the "S" word.  Yes, there has been some progress from that I'd like to think, Emma has a closer relationship with her parents, David especially, but sometimes I just can't help cursing the whole Savior mantra they have with her.  We have to pull our daughter out of her life wherever she is because she's the savior and has to save BDO. 

 

I wonder if Emma is over what happened in the Echo Caves or that BDO is named Neal...

 

That last scene was still pretty fantastic and somewhat intense because it was really emotionally charged. 

 

I've been wondering about something.  So the Snow Queen had Emma for sometime in her foster home, I'm sure she stayed there for sometime.  I wonder how close they were and if Emma actually ended up looking at her like a mother.  Maybe Emma was as happy as a teenager could be under those circumstances.  And I do think that DQ actually cared enough about Emma even if it's in her own weird, disturbing way.  I mean she seems to love Elsa enough even though she's not above tormenting her to get her to do her magic the way she should.

 

Is Snow going to be allowed a reaction to this woman who may have mothered her child?

Is Emma going to remember that this woman might actually have cared enough about her (until MAGIIIIIC!)

[Dani-Ellie]

I've been wondering about something.  So the Snow Queen had Emma for sometime in her foster home, I'm sure she stayed there for sometime.  I wonder how close they were and if Emma actually ended up looking at her like a mother.  Maybe Emma was as happy as a teenager could be under those circumstances.  And I do think that DQ actually cared enough about Emma even if it's in her own weird, disturbing way.

 

I was talking about this same thing with a friend earlier. I've long thought it would have made sense for Emma to have had some good experiences mixed in with the bad, but those good experiences, for one reason or another, never lasted. It would be a nice way to explain why she couldn't let herself relax even when she got the good times. It's not necessarily just that the savior never gets a day off, it's that this has always happened. She gets something good ... and then the other shoe drops.

 

What I think would be really interesting is if the Snow Queen, like we saw her doing with Elsa, tried to endear herself to Emma by pulling the "I'm someone who understands you" card. And, as we've seen, Emma was definitely in that place where she thought loving attention from an adult/parental figure was just not in the cards for her. I can see her clinging to any little shred of niceness and empathy the Snow Queen threw her way.

 

And then it could take the magic turn, where Emma begins displaying her powers and it freaks her out. So then the Snow Queen could show Emma her powers, too, and be all, "This is why no one understands you but I do." I could even see them bonding and sharing a kind of kinship over it ... until it all inevitably goes to shit because, y'know, Snow Queen.

 

Is Snow going to be allowed a reaction to this woman who may have mothered her child?

 

I really, really, really want to see Snow and Charming both react to this. Which of course more than likely means we won't, but still.

[YaddaYadda]

We saw Emma in her previous foster home with that woman who told her you'll find a home too.  That woman seemed to know Emma well enough to know what she wanted/needed.  And she wasn't portrayed as some mean person who pulled her inside the house and screamed at her.  I hadn't thought of that flashback scene of Emma in that foster home until we saw her in DQ's home.  It's interesting that Emma ran not because of the home she was in or the woman but because she knew she would not be adopted because of her age. 

 

I really, really, really want to see Snow and Charming both react to this. Which of course more than likely means we won't, but still.

I hope they allow them a reaction.  And they should have a reaction.  There are entirely too many things Snowing don't know about their daughter to the extent that they named their son after her moronic ex-boyfriend.  And yes, she loved him, she still does, she has a son with him, but still...their effort was completely misguided.

 

I want them very badly to have that reaction...wow, this is what my daughter looked like when she was 14-15.  It's like Emma was given all these fake memories of Henry, so she sort of has something to hang on to, but they don't.

[Dani-Ellie]

We saw Emma in her previous foster home with that woman who told her you'll find a home too.  That woman seemed to know Emma well enough to know what she wanted/needed.  And she wasn't portrayed as some mean person who pulled her inside the house and screamed at her.

 

Right, and that could even feed into it. I agree that the woman did not at all seem mean or uncaring, and I agree that she seemed to know what Emma wanted. The problem was that she couldn't give Emma what Emma wanted. Even her "you'll find a home someday, too" said as much ... the group home wasn't Emma's home, not her forever home.

 

We know that the Snow Queen wants a family, as did Emma. So what if she fills Emma's head with all this "you can stay here with me forever" stuff? "You're special. You can stay here, and we'll be a family." It would play right into what Emma seemed to be looking for.

Edited October 28, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[Emma]

It raises my blood pressure when I think about all the scenes they skip out on where Emma is concerned.

 

Apparently I'm in a reflective mood today too.

[KAOS Agent]

 

Other than Regina asking her what was in Tallahassee that kept her there for two years, nobody really asks to get to know Emma. That kinda sucks. While the others have their histories spelled out in the book, Emma is a mystery that nobody seems to want to solve. Yes, it would be painful for David/Mary Margaret to know that she bounced from place to place, was potentially abused, felt the need to steal for what she wanted to survive, and whatever else is in her past. But they should want to know those things.

 

This show is terrible with follow through especially stuff from Season 1, but there were a couple of times where Emma opened up to Mary Margaret and was judged or questioned about her attitude. For example, when Nicholas and Ava were going to be sent into foster care, Emma knew what that meant and how awful it would be for them. She was desperately trying to keep that from happening. When she tried to explain what exactly it would mean for them to end up in the system - they would be separated, they'd end up in a home where they're nothing more than a meal ticket - Mary Margaret went with a sunshine attitude that the foster system is there to help and not all homes are like that. That may be true, but Emma's experience was different and throwing those kids into the system and hoping for the best is not something Emma Swan would do. Not to mention, it sounds a lot like the plan to throw baby Emma in the wardrobe and hope for the best, which from Emma's perspective wasn't the best plan and basically destroyed her life.  And there were a couple of other times where Mary Margaret was denying what Emma was saying by thinking it was just her negative attitude exaggerating things. Mary Margaret was judgey about Emma and her choices. I understand that Mary Margaret is not Snow and she was not in the mindset of thinking the woman telling her these things is her daughter. However, Emma would have internalized this kind of thing and it would make her that much more resistant to sharing.

 

And the truth is that uncursed Mary Margaret/Snow is still very judgmental. Stupidly so sometimes. Emma isn't going to want to put herself out there for that subtle judgement. I don't mean this to be a knock on Snow, but if you pull back and look at things from Emma's perspective where her experience and instincts have been brushed off by Snow because she doesn't listen, I can understand Emma not wanting to go there. Of course, Emma could open up to David because he's a very good listener, he doesn't push and he doesn't judge, but you can't have Emma telling these things to David without involving Snow.

 

And of course, the real reason it will never happen is because this is a fun fantasy show and Emma detailing her terrible, depressing and very real world childhood to her horrified parents is not going to be fun television. We'd much rather see Regina using her magic to destroy lives and then cry pretty tears of woe when people don't love her for it.

[unbrokensavior]

I don't even know why I bothered hoping over the summer that this season, we'd finally get some Charming Family development.  Now that Emma has Killian, I can see Snow feeling as though Emma doesn't need her anymore, and even more so now that Snow has Snowflake.  David at least tries with Emma, but I don't see Emma really wanting to go there, if you get what I mean, because her past would be too painful for him, in her mind.  She isn't going to want to delve super deep into her past.  I believe it was on here (though it could have been a fanfic I was reading) somebody talked about how she's okay opening up to Killian because the pain caused by her childhood wasn't a result of his decisions.  He's an unbiased third-party who she can vent to without having to worry about his feelings.

 

I wonder how much of that has to do with New York?  Had Emma (and Henry) not been forced to go to NY, would she still have let Killian comfort her while watching the video of her and Lily?  Would she have let him even see it?  Heck, would she have even played it herself?  

 

Also, is it just me thinking this, but would S1, or even S3 Emma have put up with Regina's BS?  I can totally see her decking Regina after the first few snarky/sarcastic/rude/obnoxious/hurtful/delusional (and incorrect) comments, if this was S1.  *Sighs*  I really miss take no prisoners, tough as nails, badass Emma Swan.  The writers really need to remember how to write her.

[YaddaYadda]

I think if David and MM asked Emma, I'm pretty sure she would tell them.  But they need to show interest in her past.  I mean she pretty much volunteered to David that Neal taught her how to pick locks.  Emma told Mary Margaret in season 1 that she lied to Henry about his father because he wasn't a good guy.  (How does Emma saying that Neal wasn't a good equals that she should date him and then have her newborn brother named for him?  Still doesn't compute)

 

I think it's on them to ask her.  They know she had a horrible childhood and I'm sure they feel guilty and maybe they don't wanna push, but seriously...I think the sink is about to fly at their heads now that we know that DQ was somewhat an active participant in Emma's life when she was a teenager.

 

This is the show's opportunity to have David and Mary Margaret ask Emma certain questions about her childhood. 

Edited October 31, 2014 by YaddaYadda

[unbrokensavior]

 

This is the show's opportunity to have David and Mary Margaret ask Emma certain questions about her childhood.

Oh, it's absolutely an opportunity -a perfect one at that- but Adam and Eddy have proven time and time again that they just won't take them and run.  I really wish I had Snow's optimism rather than Emma's cynicism about this, but I'll believe that a Charming Scene will happen when I finally see it.

 

Also, sorry to change the subject, but I've been thinking about Captain Swan.  This is speculation, but still thought I'd hide it behind the spoiler thing:   

People think that CS will get married in the S4 finale or early S5 because of a wedding dress that can be seen in certain scenes with Emma and Killian, particularly during their date, and because Killian held up a ring that came out of Emma's box of stuff. Maybe a marriage/proposal will be prompted because of a surprise baby? I personally think that CS paralells Snowing and anti-parallels Swan Thief. A redo baby would parallel Snowing and be the opposite of what happened with Neal. Obviously, ST's argue that Neal didn't know Emma was pregnant and if he he had known, he wouldn't have sent her to jail... but maybe Killian would have to make a decision about Emma (not that I think he should or that Neal was right, because it should have been Emma's choice), or Emma has to choose whether or not to keep/have the surprise baby because I'm pretty sure she's said she didn't have feel as though she had choice with Henry. She felt like she had to give him up. But the point is, he'll stay and Emma will get to keep the baby with Killian. Oh, and they won't break up because Killian won't hurt her the way everyone else has. It would parallel Snowing's redo baby and be the exact opposite of what happened with Swan Thief.

Edited November 1, 2014 by miley-avril

[Emma]

There's so much else to discuss but ... Shallow note alert.

Damn. I've missed the tank tops and Jen's arms.

[Dani-Ellie]

These are the things I think about while I'm getting ready in the morning (yeah, I know) but ... if six months really was the longest Emma was ever in a foster home, no wonder she couldn't sit still as an adult. Picking up and moving on at a moment's notice was the only thing she knew. How utterly sad is it that her eleven months in freakin' prison was the most stability she probably ever remembered?

 

And suddenly I hate Neal all over again because I'm imagining 18-year-old Emma moving to Tallahassee and staying there for two years, which was at least four times longer than any home she'd ever had growing up, waiting for something that was never going to happen.

[Mari]

My husband has been watching the show a little bit, and a plot point that he's irritated by, is that little Emma would've had no trouble being adopted since that she was an adorable blonde child.  I think he's right, she seems like a good kid and is pretty, so how was she really never adopted?

 

Believe it or not, it make sense, based on how she was found and how many people chose to adopt.

 

Emma was found on the side of the road, in a handmade blanket, with her name on it.  Her parents were royals--so that blanket would have been well made out of expensive material, and it was personalized.  She was healthy, and there would have been no signs of prenatal drug/alcohol abuse.

 

Babies who are abandoned with the intention of giving up parental rights are not usually abandoned with expensive, personalized things.  The law enforcement and social services reaction wouldn't have been "Abandoned baby.  Move to terminate parental rights under the abandoned child laws."  The reaction would have been "find this child's family--was she kidnapped?  Was the mother being held somewhere?"

 

They would have had to open an investigation--and they would have found absolutely nothing.  Babies don't just appear out of thin air, so they would not believe it, and that investigation would have gone on, likely for several months.

 

The more a child is no longer a newborn, the more likely that child will not be adopted. It sounds unbelievable, but it's true.  For example, I know someone who was adopted when only a year old--and the birth family struggled to find someone willing to adopt a good natured, healthy, white boy.

 

Between how long it would take to close the investigation (several months) and terminate parental rights (which can also be a lengthy process), Emma would easily have been out of prime adoption age.  Plus, from what we were told, she was with a longer-term foster family that the system was likely hoping/expecting would move to permanent. 

 

By the time she was turned in by that family--3 years old?  A 3 year old who was just rejected by the only family she's known?  That's not a pleasant child, and she's an unpleasant child who is no longer close to being the baby most couples want.

 

Then, she starts to have a record, and if she was moved around every more than every six months?  That's unusual--most of the time the foster system looks for longer term placements, because of the child's emotional/mental health.  The system itself would be very unlikely to move her around that often, which means she was often getting turned in and "rejected" for one reason or another--often probably not even connected to Emma, but she doesn't necessarily know/feel that.

 

But with each turn in, she would become more "unadoptable".

 

I have trouble believing a lot of things the show tells us.  This, horrifyingly, isn't one of them.

 

ETA:

Forgot to include that for many families the age thing is a much bigger deal than race/ethnicity.  Even anecdotally, I know several families who have adopted across racial lines multiple times--but the baby had to be a newborn.  they did not want to adopt children that were not infants.

Edited November 3, 2014 by Mari

[Dani-Ellie]

By the time she was turned in by that family--3 years old?  A 3 year old who was just rejected by the only family she's known?  That's not a pleasant child, and she's an unpleasant child who is no longer close to being the baby most couples want.

 

This.

 

My nephew was a month and a half shy of his third birthday when my brother and sister-in-law took custody of him. Already the social workers wanted to label him as "emotionally troubled," which on some level, he was (confused, sad, angry) but mostly because he had problems listening to and obeying instruction (because he had no stability or form of discipline for the first three years of his life). So if my nephew had had to be put into the system, he would have already had two strikes against him: being an "emotionally troubled" three-year-old.

 

Wee Emma would have had those exact same strikes against her. Working with and setting boundaries for a child who's been neglected and who isn't old enough to be able to express his or her emotions in a healthy way is hard, hard work, and not everyone looking to adopt is willing to do it.

Edited November 3, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[scenicbyway]

I don't know.  I've had several friends adopt children who weren't babies.  In a special case like Emma's it would've taken longer for a permanent placement.  I do find it strange that if the DQ could wipe Emma's memories, why she couldn't have just adopted her and kept wiping her memories.

 

I still think Emma was a prime candidate for adoption.  No parents, found on the side of the road---clearly abandoned.  She didn't get a record until she was a teenager, there's a lot of years in there when she could've been adopted.

[Shanna Marie]

I'm not really clear on what happened with the failed adoption. Was she adopted and then given back when the family had a kid of their own? I didn't think you could do that. It's not like taking a puppy back to the pound. In fact, I know someone who adopted a kid who turned out to be a raging psychopath, and she was essentially stuck with him in spite of him trying to rape and murder the other kids and attempting to burn the house down (though I think there was a lawsuit because they didn't disclose the extent of his abuse or the results of his psychiatric evaluations before the adoption, so the state had to cover the cost of therapy and then of institutionalizing him when it turned out that he was such a severe danger to himself and others that he could never live in a non-secure, non-supervised environment). Or was it a case of a foster family that looked like it would become permanent but they quit being foster parents when they had their own kid?

 

And was Emma named "Swan" because of the adoptive family or was she dubbed that because of the swan on her baby blanket? The name "Emma" and a swan were on her blanket, so they may have gone with that instead of "Jane Doe." It would be a bit much for coincidence if she had a swan on her baby blanket and then happened to be adopted by a family named Swan.

[KAOS Agent]

 

Or was it a case of a foster family that looked like it would become permanent but they quit being foster parents when they had their own kid?

 

I think this was most likely the case. Emma never claimed to have been adopted, just that she was with a family for three years and then they had their own kid and gave her back. Those people clearly sucked, so maybe she was better of without them. I certainly can't imagine the state forcing them to keep a child they didn't want. That would go very badly for the child.

 

I think the show has done an interesting job of building up all of Emma's insecurities and failures this season so that they can all blow up at once. Someone as controlled as Emma would need to have an immense amount of issues pile up before she'd let it show. I'm kind of sad that it's going to manifest with her magic rather than a real emotional blow up because her parents and all the other people who screwed her over need a few home truths delivered to them for putting all of this crap onto an innocent newborn. How many times was an unknowing Emma taken advantage of by people not of this world? I just so desperately want this show to admit that Emma's disconnect with her family is not all her fault and only in her head. Please, please, please let someone acknowledge just how badly these people messed up.

 

Can you just imagine a 14 year old Emma, a girl who had been starved of love, finally finding a woman who was interested in her, showing her respect and treating her well? She'd soak all of that up like a sponge and it would feel so wonderful. She considered this woman family. Being betrayed and finding out that this person was using her would have destroyed Emma. The teenage years leave us so messed up emotionally that this occurring right in the middle of Emma's adolescence makes it all the worse. 

[stealinghome]

Or was it a case of a foster family that looked like it would become permanent but they quit being foster parents when they had their own kid?

This is my understanding of what happened, yes.

[ShadowFacts]

My problem with the scenario is, how do people have a child for three years, from newborn onward, and give the child back?  That is inconceivable to me, because the bond would be quite solid long before three years.  Hell, I've bonded to a dog with multiple behavioral problems that was pretty much foisted on me, within a few months and love him like a rock.  I've gotten fiercely close and protective of a little girl in my orbit within a short period of time, and she feels like one of my own kids.  Giving back a foster child you've had since birth who is healthy and a blank slate, yeah, there's something wrong with that picture.  Emma probably dodged a bullet there.

[Rumsy4]

Poor baby cygnet Emma. :-/

[KingOfHearts]

 

I don't think we needed Emma flashbacks, but we DID need (imo) a somewhat more linear belief trajectory and a better explanation in moments like 'Hat Trick,' when something was clearly up, as to why Emma would reject the curse so stridently.

 

Once we got to Hat Trick, Emma looked kind of dumb. Even if there was no curse, she had to know something was afoot. This town is full of crazy people doing nasty things and there's weird goings-on. Of all the stories Henry talked about, there's no way she couldn't have seen the parallels by the time 1x17 came along. 

Edited November 9, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[FabulousTater]

As a viewer it was frustrating watching Emma not believe in the curse for so long. But let's be real here. If any real person were to come across a crazy ass town, where odd but not totally inexplicable things happened, no matter how weird things got the absolutely last thing anyone would believe is that everyone in town is a fairy tale character cursed by The Evil Queen. That would be the last thing I would ever consider. I would sooner buy chemical spill into the water supply, gas leak, cult brainwashing, mass delusions, or absolutely anything else before I was like "...Oh, sure. Magic is real and the mayor is The Evil Queen, that over there is Snow White and, look, Little Red Riding Hood, and they conveniently don't know they are fairy tale characters that got here by a magical curse. I mean, they act perfectly normal, but sure, they are clearly, totally fairy tale characters." 

 

Seriously, I would not be buying this shit anymore than Emma was. It really would've taken something along the lines of Henry pretty much magically falling over dead for no good reason for me to buy it.

Edited November 9, 2014 by FabulousTater

[KingOfHearts]

FabulousTater, I wasn't suggesting she believe in the curse, just that she'd realize there was something fishy going on underneath the facade of this little town. You got to wonder why she didn't try to start some investigation, what with the murderers, kidnappings and wackos believing in fairy tales like a cult.

Edited November 9, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[stealinghome]

Yeah, I agree. By the time of 'Hat Trick,' Emma should have been seriously weirded out by all the creepy/weird/dangerous things going on around town. She didn't necessarily have to believe in the curse, but she should've known that something was funky and tried to dig into it a bit.

 

Unfortunately, more than anyone else, Emma was the character who had to hold the idiot/"real people don't work like that" ball in S1 sometimes when the plot demanded it.

[regularlyleaded]

IA with 'Tater. Emma did think that the town was weird. But only two people in the entire town were talking about a curse, and those people consisted of a troubled ten year old kid and a deranged lunatic who held Emma and Mary Margaret hostage so she could make him a hat (later the grand total was three people when August threw his story at Emma, but that was much later in 1x20 and he clearly had an agenda and not necessarily the type of person who comes off as trustworthy). So two/three people in a town of hundreds wouldn't be enough for me to personally think anything other than "Hmmm...strange town" not that there was a large evil agenda (whether supernatural or not) at play.

 

Plus, It wasn't that Emma didn't believe in the curse it's that she refused to be open to the possibility that magic, fairytales and the curse and everything could even be real. When Henry keeled over from eating the poisoned turnover that event forced Emma to be open to the possibility of magic being real. Notice when they were bringing Henry into the hospital Emma spewed a litany of other absolutely rational possibilities to Whale about what could be wrong with Henry before Whale's answer of "this is inexplicable" forced Emma into thinking "Okay, maybe magic is real".  It was then the storybook that showed her the truth once she was ready.

 

And really, for someone like Emma, who had no reason to believe even in the kindness of strangers, the refusal to believe was in character. Emma's life experiences taught her that you couldn't even believe in people, not even the ones who claimed to love you. So for her to refuse to believe in the possibility of magic (something that even a rational, emotionally healthy person would have trouble buying into) is not that unreasonable nor is it dumb. ( Hell, it took way more for Scully on the X-Files to be even open to the idea of aliens. ;) For me, there were a few moments where it was frustrating to watch because we in the audience knew it was all true, but from the point of view of Emma's narrative it made sense.

Edited November 10, 2014 by regularlyleaded

[KingOfHearts]

 

Unfortunately, more than anyone else, Emma was the character who had to hold the idiot/"real people don't work like that" ball in S1 sometimes when the plot demanded it.

 

Like when she allied with Sidney in Fruit of the Poisonous Tree, or when she tried to negotiate peace and trust Henry with Regina in 1x21. Emma, you're supposed to be a savvy bail bondsman! You know these people are off their rockers - you've seen it firsthand!

 

Emma: "Your mom is going to take really good care of you!"

Based off.. what? Your denial?

 

 

not that there was a large evil agenda (whether supernatural or not) at play.

Surely she knew Regina had an evil agenda, though. She knew she framed MM for murder, had Kathryn abducted, and framed her with Archie's files. Then there was the Henry abuse. 

 

 

So two/three people in a town of hundreds wouldn't be enough for me to personally think anything other than "Hmmm...strange town" not that there was a large evil agenda (whether supernatural or not) at play.

For me, if you put all the events of S1 together, it spells out there's something off, even if not everyone was in on it.

Edited November 9, 2014 by KingOfHearts