Emma Swan: 1000% done with your infuriating optimism

[Souris]

New interview with JMo. Not a lot about Once, but she says she read a lot of memoirs of people who grew up in the foster system as prep for Emma.

[Alex]

Also wrong. Surely he wasn't in love with her when he offered his ship? He barely knew her. He was there for Baelfire, right?

 

This is what I think. But according to the Captain Swan hardcore shippers, he went back for Emma.

 

Regarding Snowflakes' name: a friend of mine had her nephew called like her ex fiancé. Actually, the baby was named after they broke up (and after he was a total jerk to her and her family knew...). I remember her being rather mad at the beginning, but then she got used to it, saying that after all, it's just a name.

(Btw, it's the same name as my nephew!! i remember I laughed when my brother told me the name!)

[Shanna Marie]

Also wrong. Surely he wasn't in love with her when he offered his ship? He barely knew her. He was there for Baelfire, right?

I got the impression that while he certainly fancied Emma, he didn't start seriously considering it as potential love until later. When he offered his ship, it was largely for Baelfire (and Milah), and he fell in love while going through the Neverland adventure (proximity and danger tend to have that effect). I'm not sure if it was an epiphany he had while in the cave that he might actually be able to love again, but I don't think he started attaching the word "love" to his feelings until around that point.

 

On another note, I hit "Hat Trick" in my rewatch, and I'd forgotten that Emma pretty much had the exact same conversation with Mary Margaret about running away and walls, etc., that she had repeatedly with Hook in 3B, with the roles reversed. They seem to hit the emotional reset button with Emma at the end of every season or half season. Maybe we should have had some Missing Year flashbacks of the time in New York to show why she reset so badly this time. I can kind of see where the experience of a totally "normal" life in which she'd made different choices and wasn't totally alone might have affected her, and now she also has that "we are both" thing going on, but I'm not sure that repeating the exact same words of a lesson she's already learned and taught to other people was such a good idea.

 

And I really, really miss the awesome relationship Emma and Mary Margaret used to have. It's like learning they were mother and daughter totally killed their friendship. Maybe now that Emma has had her "there's no place like home" moment, they can get back to that.

[retrograde]

This is what I think. But according to the Captain Swan hardcore shippers, he went back for Emma.

I suspect the writers planned to develop their relationship more in 2B, and then that might have been partially the case, but Colin O'Donoghue broke his leg so they couldn't. But it is what it is -- what happened on-screen is canon now.  

[Dani-Ellie]

Also wrong. Surely he wasn't in love with her when he offered his ship? He barely new her. He was there for Baelfire, right?

 

Responding in the relationships thread.

[Aliasscape]

Oh, absolutely.  But the thing that really bugs me is, they know how to do heroines and consequences and relationships better.  People get very critical of 'Lost', but the character writing was mostly high quality, and I believe A&E were responsible for some of the best of it, Jin and Sun and others I believe.  (Can't swear to it, haven't checked episode credits.)  So I always think in the back of my mind, they are messing with us, they are doing this screwed up morality very deliberately. 

Jin chose to DIE (thus leaving their child motherless AND fatherless to be with Sun and despite her attempts to get him to leave) I was apparently supposed to see him refusing to leave her as a big romantic gesture. But hey I wouldn't be shocked if Adam and Eddy DID write that.

[Camera One]

And like... even if you never think to ask "so what happened then?"

 

To me, it was in character for Snow and Charming not to ask, and it's not because they don't care.  They are trying to respect Emma's boundaries.  They are trying to "feel" their way around what Emma wants of them.  I don't feel the need to be indignant on Emma's behalf, because I don't think she cares which "train" her parents jumped on.  From the way she acts, she seems to know and understand where they're coming from.  I really like that about her, actually.  I agree with everyone about why Adam and Eddy are being intentionally ambiguous about this.  They made a serious writing miscalculation and they don't know how to fix it, and they don't want to deal with it any further.

Edited July 4, 2014 by Camera One

[YaddaYadda]

Also wrong. Surely he wasn't in love with her when he offered his ship? He barely knew her. He was there for Baelfire, right?

 

I don't think he was in love with her.  They were trying to take each other's head off most of the time.  I think he might have liked her, but I think she offered him a chance at redemption and he took it and Baelfire was a large part of that.  That episode had Neverbacks in it with Hook and Bae and it the end, there's that tense "truce" between Hook and Rumple.  If Hook couldn't repay Bae for what went down between them, then he was going to at least try and save his son.

[Serena]

I got the impression that while he certainly fancied Emma, he didn't start seriously considering it as potential love until later. When he offered his ship, it was largely for Baelfire (and Milah), and he fell in love while going through the Neverland adventure (proximity and danger tend to have that effect). I'm not sure if it was an epiphany he had while in the cave that he might actually be able to love again, but I don't think he started attaching the word "love" to his feelings until around that point.

I think his epiphany was after the kiss. Remember in the caves? "It's what the kiss exposed". I don't doubt he liked her a lot as far back as S2, but he was too laser-focused on MILAH-REVENGE-MILAH-MILAH-REVENGE to really let himself feel it.

It's also (kinda) reiterated by Hook in the S3 finale, when he said that if he had remembered kissing her, he would have gone after her.

[stealinghome]

Yeah, I think the thing that really bugs though, even if they don't know about the prison thing, is that they all immediately jumped on the Neal/Emma train without knowing absolutely anything about their actual relationship, outside of the fact that they had a child together. That sends a really ugly "bio parents together" message.

I don't think Snow or Charming immediately jumped on that bandwagon, though--and if they did, it was because Emma was walking around saying things like "I love Neal!" (Which made me sick, I agree, but it is what it is.)

 

From what I remember (which to be fair, may well not be everything, because I have tried to block out large swaths of S2), both Charming and Snow seemed pretty pointedly neutral on Neal for really all of 2B. Charming glared at him for most of 2x16, and then I don't think he acknowledged Neal's existence again until he comforted Emma--who was, I would note, obviously very torn up about Neal's "death"--in 2x21. And his advice to Emma in 3x10 was more about being open to love, and living life, than it was pro-Neal explicitly. Meanwhile, back in 2B, Snow had that one conversation with Emma where she brushed off Emma's suspicions about Tamara as rooted in Emma's feelings for Neal, and while I found it gag-worthy (and it was definitely too dismissive in general), later events suggested that we were supposed to see Snow as right about Emma still having feelings for Neal. So I think we're supposed to be thinking that Snow was correctly picking up on the vibes Emma was giving off when it came to Neal.

 

Flash forward to S3, and the first time I remember Neal coming up in any important way (though certainly Emma was upset at his "death" in the premiere) was at his little cave, where Emma ran away from her parents crying and saying "I'm pissed that there was so much time wasted between me and Neal, I loved him." And then I suppose Snow picked up on the Emma/Neal/Hook triangle tension. Snow did come off as a little bit of Neal stan, with the "I'm sure he'll forgive you" and then hoping that Emma would show up for lunch in 3x10, but I didn't think it was outrageous or crazy OTT or anything like that. Especially given that, as far as she knows, the worst thing that happened between Emma and Neal was a bad breakup--but one that certainly hasn't stopped Emma and Neal from being co-parents, friends, or from Emma having feelings for him (and yes, again I agree I find that gagworthy).

 

So...I guess I just don't blame Snow that much for being slightly pro-Neal (I think the extent to which she gets portrayed as Team Neal is a little overblown). When her child is walking around saying things like "I'm pissed that Neal and I lost so much time, I still love him," I can't blame her for being like "wow, it seems like getting back together with this guy might make Emma happy." From her point of view, it makes sense to me. The real problem is just how badly the show mishandled Emma and Neal's story from Day One.

 

But I also agree with Camera One that I don't think Emma really cared what her parents thought. tbh, she cared more about what David thought of Hook than how her parents felt about Neal.

[YaddaYadda]

I don't think Emma really cared what her parents thought. tbh, she cared more about what David thought of Hook than how her parents felt about Neal.

 

It's funny you bring this up because I've had the feeling for sometime now that Emma cares more about what David thinks of her decisions than Mary Margaret.  I don't know if it's because father's don't say much in general or if it's because she feels a greater connection to him and I do think there's more of a connect between her and David than there is between her and MM.

[Camera One]

I don't think it's a question of David vs. Mary Margaret, as if it's a competition of whose opinion Emma values more.  I think Emma finds it easier to talk to David, because he's more easy-going, and doesn't fret/freak out as much as Mary Margaret.  But she does also go to Mary Margaret when she wants to talk as well... she told MM when she phoned from NYC and discussed she didn't know what to do, and she opened up about still feeling like an orphan at the end of "Lost Girl". 

Edited July 4, 2014 by Camera One

[Amerilla]

It's also (kinda) reiterated by Hook in the S3 finale, when he said that if he had remembered kissing her, he would have gone after her.

 

 

So, at the very least, we know Emma is a really good kisser. Or that Milah wasn't.

 

It's funny you bring this up because I've had the feeling for sometime now that Emma cares more about what David thinks of her decisions than Mary Margaret.

 

 

 

I don't know that I buy that Emma cares all that much about either one of their opinions. Or that she should care. 

 

This touches on my wider problem with any discussion of how Emma and Snowing relate: they're her parents, but they aren't her "parents" in the sense we usually use the word. I know it's supposed to be touching, but I cringe every time she calls them "mom and dad," because (through no real fault of their own, admittedly) they aren't. They're relative strangers in the context of her lifetime, they haven't spent a lot of time with each other since the curse broke, and they're people with vastly different experiences from her - experiences she doesn't find particularly valuable. There's no blame to any of them on that...it's just the situation they've been presented with. 

[kili]

I think the extent to which she gets portrayed as Team Neal is a little overblown

 

I don't think it can be overblown enough now that they called their long-awaited for child, Neal.  [Chandler]: Could you BE anymore on Team Neal?

 

Who names their child after their other-child's ex-boyfriend who knocked them up? Who? The case for naming him Neal because Neal died a hero (when they've known people who have actually had heroic deaths) is weak. I'm convinced they did it because they thought it would be a nice way to make Emma feel better by recognizing her True Love (well, who Snow perceives as her True Love).

 

I think Emma finds it easier to talk to David, because he's more easy-going, and doesn't fret/freak out as much as Mary Margaret.

 

I think it's easier for Emma to talk to David because he listens and doesn't try to make her feel bad for having different opinions. I'm still in a rage about the post-book finding guilt-trip about Emma "forgetting" about them in New York (like she had a choice) and the "he will forgive you" about the kiss. If Snow truly wants to repair her relationship with her daughter, she needs to start asking Emma how she feels about things instead of assuming she knows what she feels (because her batting average has gotten very low in Season 3). For her part Emma needs to start telling her mother how she feels because her mother has increasingly become clueless (while David seems to have a decent read). 

[Serena]

I am still bitter that that child isn't named Graham. Talk about someone who died a hero whom you owe your life to, Snow.

Edited July 4, 2014 by Serena

[stealinghome]

It's funny you bring this up because I've had the feeling for sometime now that Emma cares more about what David thinks of her decisions than Mary Margaret.  I don't know if it's because father's don't say much in general or if it's because she feels a greater connection to him and I do think there's more of a connect between her and David than there is between her and MM.

Maybe Emma looked at all of Snow's dumbassery post-killing Cora and decided that Snow's judgment is obviously, ridiculously, fatally flawed, so she should just stop worrying about what Snow thinks! (I kid, I kid...mostly.)

 

I'm not sure how I feel about the idea that Emma cares about what David thinks a little bit more, largely because I think the Daddy/Daughter closeness--which is awesome, I love it--is really a new thing. It's mostly from 3B and stems, imo, from the fact that they had to cut back on Goodwin's screentime given her pregnancy (honestly, Goodwin getting pregnant might have been the best thing to ever happen to the Charming character, it's forced the writers into writing for him much more--and imo the character has really stretched his wings because of it). I don't think we would have gotten nearly as much Daddy/Daughter time if Goodwin wasn't somewhat sidelined; up until 3x10, David and Emma still pretty much had zero relationship. So in some respects it's still too new to tell, and I want to wait to see how the show handles Emma-Snow-Charming when Snow is back full-time (or close to it...which, granted, may not be until S5) to judge.

 

But with that said, I agree with Camera One that Emma has definitely seemed to find David easier to talk to, because he's less insta-judgey/more easygoing than Snow. He just listens and lets Emma vent without telling her what she should think/do (or what he himself thinks or wants her to do). And he's more willing to let her make her own decisions--I'm always struck by the scene in 3x21 where pretty much everyone on the diner is piling on Emma for wanting to go back to NYC, and David is the only one who tacitly takes Emma's side and tries to change the subject. It's not that he doesn't want her to stay--he obviously does--but unlike Henry and Regina and Hook, who keep pushing, and Snow, who's got the intense stare at Emma going and makes no move to stop the uncomfortable situation, David is the one who basically says "guys, Emma's not comfortable, let's drop it." I found that an immensely, immensely telling thing. And I think that has surprised Emma, how different he can be from Snow in that way--and she seems to be really responding to it. And they're so alike that it also makes him more approachable. So I guess maybe in that sense she does care more?--but not in a way that's like "I fundamentally value David's opinion more than Snow's," but rather "he usually doesn't give an opinion, so when he does, I better listen because it's important." If you think about, the few times David had offered real counsel, real advice to Emma--in 2x10, in 3x10--she's really taken his advice.

 

But I think Emma still goes to her mom for the more emotional stuff. Snow is the one Emma had the Lost Girl conversation with in 3x02, Emma stepped right into Snow's hug in 3x15 when she said Neal was dead. (Which I think is very true to life--I adore my dad, but when I'm really emotional, it's always my mom I want.) Maybe the way to think about it is that Emma goes to David for decisions and to Snow for feelings, for different types of advice/support. She has a more "adult" relationship with David, a more "child" (and I don't mean that in any negative way) with Snow.

 

Honestly, I just really hope that they keep building their relationship. It seems like the Charming/Emma is one of the few things in 3B that everyone agreed was a bright spot, so I hope Adam and Eddie took note.

 

I am still bitter that that child isn't named Graham. Talk about someone who died a year whom you owe your life to, Snow.

Shhhh, we're still pretending Graham doesn't exist so that we don't have to hold Regina accountable for all that she did to him!

Edited July 4, 2014 by stealinghome

[KAOS Agent]

 

This touches on my wider problem with any discussion of how Emma and Snowing relate: they're her parents, but they aren't her "parents" in the sense we usually use the word. I know it's supposed to be touching, but I cringe every time she calls them "mom and dad," because (through no real fault of their own, admittedly) they aren't.

 

I hate, hate, hate when Emma calls her parents mom and dad. It comes off to me as the writers taking a shortcut to establishing their relationship. Like they can ignore the fact that while these are Emma's biological parents, they didn't raise her, don't really know her at all and they can never be or have the typical parent/child relationship. As long as Emma calls them mom and dad, it's all good. We're one big happy family.

 

To me referring to them as mom and dad somehow puts them into a position of authority/seniority or higher wisdom or something and I don't really like that either. It's like when they refer to each other by their given names they're on the same level and by calling them mom & dad that changes for me. I don't know really how to explain it, but it hits me wrong.

 

 

When her child is walking around saying things like "I'm pissed that Neal and I lost so much time, I still love him," I can't blame her for being like "wow, it seems like getting back together with this guy might make Emma happy." From her point of view, it makes sense to me.

 

I didn't like "Nasty Habits" and try not to think about it too much, but I remember Emma's freak out being less about wasting time and more about her expressing her upset that he was dead and she wasn't able to tell him how angry she was about it all. I think it all got tangled up in her realizing that they really had loved each other and she was pissed that he'd thrown that away and even though he knew the truth, choosing to spend all those years apart and not coming back for her when she did complete her destiny. I can certainly see Snow misinterpreting what Emma was saying because she didn't know the whole story. I think her pro-Neal reaction did come from not understanding and not knowing how to comfort her daughter. So when Emma confessed that she'd kissed Hook, Snow assumed it meant Emma was feeling guilty about it with regards to Neal and tried to make her feel better with a "I'm sure Neal will understand" whereas Emma was just confused about the feelings she was suddenly having for Hook and had wanted to talk to her friend about it. Snow completely misread her daughter in that situation and Emma pretty much shut down after that because she hadn't gotten the response she was looking for. It was an interesting direction to take the Snow/Emma relationship had they chosen to actually address it instead of using Snow's total lack of understanding about her daughter to add to the silly love triangle drama and then completely dropping it as an issue for them.

[Emma]

 

“Emma definitely needs some therapy, which I don’t think is gonna happen.”

 

Jennifer mentioned this at her panel at Oz Con.

 

How many times have one us mentioned that therapy would be good for her? Just another example of Jennifer understanding her character better than the writers.

[retrograde]

Sadly her main option for therapy is a cricket with a degree he got by magic...

 

On second thought, though, having Jimminy as her therapist would have been/would be a good way to get a bit more insight on her thoughts, given she is so closed generally. Many shows have successfully used a therapist as a device to let characters talk a bit more freely than their personality would usually allow. But I can't see Once slowing down the plot plot plot enough these days for this to actually happen. 

[stealinghome]

Also, Archie is a pretty awful therapist. He'd probably tell her all the wrong things to do!

[retrograde]

But at least he is apparently also a magically-licensed wedding celebrant as well, so at least she could negotiate a two-for-one deal.

[retrograde]

More stuff from the con, via this person on Twitter:

 

Jen said people misunderstand Emma shunning Hook to mean she doesn't care.
"Its because she's vulnerable around him & that scares her."

"They're like two kids on a playground. They kick each other but they do it because they like eachother" - @jenmorrisonlive on Captain Swan

Jen also admitted that Emma's judgement is often clouded around Hook because of her feelings for him.

She felt like the Captain Swan kiss at the end of 3x22 was their "real first kiss."

Her all time favourite Once moment was Hook saying "As you wish"
"I had my own Princess Buttercup moment!" - @jenmorrisonlive

She talked about how Hook's sacrifice really spoke to Emma because she similarly clung on to her past & so could acknowledge how big it was.

"She's well, yes she's attracted to Hook." - @jenmorrisonlive

[pezgirl7]

Oh boy. I also just posted those quotes in the relationship thread, since they were all basically about Captain Swan.

[Serena]

Also, Archie is a pretty awful therapist. He'd probably tell her all the wrong things to do!

I still can't believe he blamed Emma coming to town for Regina being awful to Henry. I think that was in 121? Yeah, he's the worst. Get another therapist!

[Dani-Ellie]

It was an interesting direction to take the Snow/Emma relationship had they chosen to actually address it instead of using Snow's total lack of understanding about her daughter to add to the silly love triangle drama and then completely dropping it as an issue for them.

 

There's so much with Snow/Emma I wish they would actually address. There are serious issues there, and I've highlighted them all a whole bunch of times, ;) but it's one of those things where I think the fact that they were friends before is completely tripping them both up. Like, Emma can't always see past Mary Margaret enough to see Snow, and Snow can't always see past Emma-my-baby-girl enough to see Emma, if that makes sense. Snow often doesn't know whether Emma is going to her as a friend or a daughter, but I don't think Emma always knows whether she's going to her as a friend or a daughter, either. So Snow will respond in one way but it's not what Emma was looking for and it ends up frustrating them both.

 

Maybe that's why Emma finds it easier with Charming. She was friendly with David Nolan, but they weren't friends, not on the level that she and Mary Margaret were. So maybe it's easier for her to see past David Nolan and see Charming. He still sees her as Emma-my-baby-girl but he's also able to see her as Emma on a level that I don't think Snow always can.

 

For the record, I do like the Mom and Dad ... as of right now. Because she's only called them that twice and both times I feel like it was because on some level, she was emotionally thrown back to being a scared (in the mines) or relieved (in the diner) little girl who wanted her mommy and daddy. In Neverland, she went right back to calling them David and Mary Margaret. That said, if she continues to call them Mom and Dad going forward, I may feel as KAOS Agent does that they're using it as a shortcut. (Plus, the notion of Emma never being able to have a mom and dad of some form in her life bums me out. :))

 

 

 

Many shows have successfully used a therapist as a device to let characters talk a bit more freely than their personality would usually allow. But I can't see Once slowing down the plot plot plot enough these days for this to actually happen.

 

Oh my goodness, I'm now envisioning Once's own version of The Golden Girls' "Three On a Couch" and it would be freakin' amazing. But you're right, it'll never happen. *sigh*

Edited July 5, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[YaddaYadda]

I find JMo's quotes regarding Hook interesting especially when I watch Emma/Hook clips separate from the show because I can actually see exactly what she's talking about.  When I'm watching the show, I'm trying to pay attention to everything that's happening (and I miss tons and tons of stuff and if it weren't for you guys filling in the blanks for me...) so when I watch just the clips, I get exactly what she's talking about.  I got fully on the CS ship at the end of the season because of the clips and the finale.

[Serena]

Here's something interesting non-CS related Jen said at Comic Con
 

Jen had a lot of great and interesting things to say about the background she used for Emma’s character. She read a bunch of memoirs and stories from people who had gone through the foster system. One thing that stood out was that many of them had periods of being starved. Because of that, Emma has an interesting relationship with food. She said, “It’s subtle, but it’s there.”

[ShadowFacts]

 

(Plus, the notion of Emma never being able to have a mom and dad of some form in her life bums me out. :))

 

That saddens me about Emma, too.  Given the circumstances, I think what she can have with Snow and David is a hybrid of friendship and close family, but traditional parent/adult child may not ever happen, or if it does, will take a long time to develop.  It's one of the more interesting aspects of the show's premise and it needs to be highlighted more. 

[Rumsy4]

I think a large reason why Emma's arc in 3B was so frustrating was because as the viewers, we knew that Emma was not going back to New York. If the writers had actually had Emma leaving at the end of 3B, that would have been a bold choice, if they could have made it work, that would have been an interesting development. But as such, it came off as needless angst that was improperly explored until the finale. I don't see what else JMo could do with the material and lack of suspense contingent with the writing from outside the show. 

[Mari]

I think a large reason why Emma's arc in 3B was so frustrating was because as the viewers, we knew that Emma was not going back to New York. If the writers had actually had Emma leaving at the end of 3B, that would have been a bold choice, if they could have made it work, that would have been an interesting development. But as such, it came off as needless angst that was improperly explored until the finale. I don't see what else JMo could do with the material and lack of suspense contingent with the writing from outside the show. 

 

That was part of it for me, but an even bigger part of it was how the show played it completely as "Emma's running away!  Emma has walls!  Emma's lying to herself!"

 

I'm not saying she wasn't doing those things, but that's not all I saw going on.  During most of 3B, I didn't see a reason she should want to stay in Storybrooke.  Her parents treated her like the useful cousin who they're glad to see a few times a year and that they know'll fix their pipes for free, and New York may have the occasional disguised flying monkey, but it does have approximately 79% fewer evil and evilish magic users.  Plus, if it holds true to seasons 1 and 2, those evil and evilish magic users are going to have more trouble using their magic in New York, while Emma won't.   Emma and Henry had a really nice apartment, and Henry had age-appropriate activities and friends.  It was even in Storybrooke visiting distance--so it's not like she would've been committing to never seeing them again.  

 

What I found frustrating most frustrating about it is that the actual, decent reasons were pretty much pooh-poohed and she was treated like she was stupid for not wanting to stay in Storybrooke.   When seriously? Scores of people far, far closer to their biological families manage to live happy, fulfilling lives in completely separate cities.  It's really obnoxious and offensive that it was treated like she was a teenager selfishly rebelling.

[Amerilla]

Well said, Mari.

I found it particularly tin-earred that Hook had the bulk of the "you're just running away from home" meme. ... not in the least because it's not like his feet are nailed to the Storybrooke floor. The idea that 'she's really running away from her super-intense, deeply-buried feelings for Hook' only makes sense if Hook can't leave Storybrooke. Which he can.

In fact, for all we know at this point, Curse 2.0 lacks the Town Line Memory Dump, and everyone can come and go as they please.

[stealinghome]

Yeah, honestly, if anyone had Henry's best interests in mind, they'd be clamoring for Emma to return to New York City with him. Flat out, New York is a way, way, way safer environment for that kid than Storybrooke--not to mention healthier. It really annoyed me that the entire show (writers) acted as if Emma's desire to return to New York was silly or wrong--it's the most logical anyone on this show has ever felt! Regina and Snowing should have been like "Go back to New York, let Henry live a normal and safe life!"

[Camera One]

My problem with it, was that they only had Emma repeating the same sentiment over and over again, without actually exploring the why's - not just why Emma would not want to stay in Storybrooke, but also why she would.  Was she running away from the responsibility of being the Saviour and having to use magic?  Was it solely for Henry?  If so, which factor?  Henry having a normal life with normal friends?  Was it mainly the safety aspect?  Was it because she liked the bond with just her and Henry?  Was it because she liked her life bailsbondwoman-ing?  Was it because she had other friends in New York?  All of those reasons were there but nothing was specified or explored.  They had Emma come to a sudden realization in the season finale, but that wasn't enough.  Nothing built to that conclusion.  It's like a complete plateau and suddenly a spike.  Compare this to the gradual rise in Regina's redemption in 3B or the complex trend of Rumple realizing he needed to make the ultimate sacrifice in 3A or Hook's gradual redemption through both 3A and 3B.  Emma deserved as much as those three, but she didn't get it.

[KingOfHearts]

The sad part is she decided to stay without even putting Henry into the equation. It was never about Henry for her. Her reasons (though few) for wanting to leave were actually pretty selfish. She basically just said she'd rather play video games and sit on the couch. She never mentioned anything about Henry's safety or his well-being, nor anything regarding her family. She just kept saying "life in New York was good" over and over. Then in the finale, we're told it's because she missed New York and that "home is the place you miss". Really?

 

I totally get wanting to stay in New York. I do. But the writing execution just felt so repetitious and simplistic.

Edited July 5, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

Word! Emma gets a lot of screen-time, but very little of it to explore her issues meaningfully. 

 

 

Then in the finale, we're told it's because she missed New York and that "home is the place you miss". Really?

 

KingofHearts, I think we were supposed to believe that she missed her parents in the Finale, and that's why Storybrooke was home. All her New York whining in 3B doesn't count as missing "Home".

[Mari]

Word! Emma gets a lot of screen-time, but very little of it to explore her issues meaningfully. 

 

 

KingofHearts, I think we were supposed to believe that she missed her parents in the Finale, and that's why Storybrooke was home. All her New York whining in 3B doesn't count as missing "Home".

I think you're completely right.  I just haven't figured out why she was supposed to miss her parents.  What about the David/Snow/Emma relationship was worth moving for?  I think that's where they messed up.

[KingOfHearts]

 

KingofHearts, I think we were supposed to believe that she missed her parents in the Finale, and that's why Storybrooke was home. All her New York whining in 3B doesn't count as missing "Home".

 

 

We're led to believe her reason for thinking NY was her home was because she missed it. She's still under the mentality that Neal gave her. She thought it was her home. It only changed in the finale because she missed her parents instead. It was her perception.

 

That was the reason the writers gave us. They waited out until the finale to say, "This is the real reason Emma wanted to go back to New York!"

Edited July 5, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

 

She thought it was her home. It only changed in the finale because she missed her parents instead. It was her perception.

 

Ah! I missed that nuance. But then, I thought Neal's concept about Home was idiotic. Whatever it is, he had such a huge role in shaping Emma as we know her. 

[Mari]

We're led to believe her reason for thinking NY was her home was because she missed it. She's still under the mentality that Neal gave her. She thought it was her home. It only changed in the finale because she missed her parents instead. It was her perception.

 

That was the reason the writers gave us. They waited out until the finale to say, "This is the real reason Emma wanted to go back to New York!"

Yes.  They just did a terrible job of fleshing out that story.

 

It wouldn't make me quite so angry, I think, except they also did a truly terrible job of making it obvious the Charmings wanted to be Emma's home.  For the most part, they've seemed pretty uninterested in Emma since the Echo Cave scene.

 

It would've made more sense if they'd had some private scenes between at least Snow and David, showing how much they want to be part of Emma's life.  They didn't.  So now, Emma's "home" is apparently two people who mostly want a reliable, safe babysitter for Nealflake.

 

And it doesn't matter to me that Emma's okay with it.  I've seen what kids who grew up the way Emma did accept as okay behavior from family.  Emma being okay with it doesn't reassure me that her emotional needs in that relationship are going to get met.

[KingOfHearts]

It wouldn't make me quite so angry, I think, except they also did a truly terrible job of making it obvious the Charmings wanted to be Emma's home.  For the most part, they've seemed pretty uninterested in Emma since the Echo Cave scene.

 

Emma didn't put her parents into her thought process, either. I agree they haven't given her any good reasons to stay, but it really never came up. It frustrates me how much Prince Neal is just a replacement for her in their lives. Snow had to literally burn at the stake to get Emma's attention. Neither Emma or her parents had each other in their game plans.

 

It seems like Emma has to almost die now to get her parents' attention in return.

Edited July 6, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Amerilla]

It seems like a small thing in some ways, but along with the reality that Henry was much better off in NYC, there's also Emma's career. Is she supposed to give up a job she generally speaks of with pride to go back to being Sheriff of Crazybrooke?

Edited July 6, 2014 by Amerilla

[Camera One]

It would've made more sense if they'd had some private scenes between at least Snow and David, showing how much they want to be part of Emma's life.  They didn't.  So now, Emma's "home" is apparently two people who mostly want a reliable, safe babysitter for Nealflake.  And it doesn't matter to me that Emma's okay with it.

 

I desperately wish that they wrote scenes for Snow/David/Emma too, but I think Snow and David were more preoccupied than disinterested.  Snow and Charming basically woke up and suddenly realized Snow was a week away from giving birth with no memory she was even pregnant.  Emotionally preparing oneself for a baby takes time (even when there isn't a Wicked Witch loose turning your friends into monkeys), and maybe Emma was okay with it because of that?  It was the writer's neglect, but at least it can be explained logically as well.   With all these other people on the writing team, does no one there care about Emma, Snow and Charming?  Are they all vying to write the next Regina, Rumple or Big Bad episode?  It's just unfathomable.  

Edited July 6, 2014 by Camera One

[Mari]

Emma didn't put her parents into her thought process, either. I agree they haven't given her any good reasons to stay, but it really never came up. It frustrates me how much Prince Neal is just a replacement for her in their lives. Snow had to literally burn at the stake to get Emma's attention. Neither Emma or her parents had each other in their game plans.

As I saw it, the turning point was the Echo Cave scene.  Emma confided in Snow right before they got to the cave, and Snow was obviously completely misreading what Emma's feelings were about Hook/Neal, the kiss, and Neal's nondeath.  It was followed up with Snow's Baby Do-over confession and Emma and Hook's confessions that made it really obvious Snow hadn't understood Emma at all during their preCave conversation.  After that, I do not remember a scene where Snow reached out to Emma emotionally.  It was like at that point she completely wrote Emma off.

 

Snow then moved on to building her Neverland hut with David--no concern for Emma.  Emma's the one that pushed for them to find a way to be together.  So Emma responded to what was basically a rejection speech with trying to find a way for them to all stay together.

 

At the end of 3A, Snow and David pretty quickly get into "back to the Enchanted Forest" mode.  Emma is the one desperately pushing for them to find a way to all be together.

 

Once back in the Enchanted Forest, Snow makes one tiny sad "We're back." that most likely was "I miss Emma", but given everything else could also be "Crap.  No more frozen yogurt." or "Crap.  Now we've got to rebuild the castle and figure out new lives."  Other than that, nothing.  The closest we get is David having Emma thoughts, but even those turn out to be him worried about failing Nealflake.

[YaddaYadda]

Ah! I missed that nuance. But then, I thought Neal's concept about Home was idiotic. Whatever it is, he had such a huge role in shaping Emma as we know her. 

I was just watching a clip from when they were in Neal's cave in Neverland and he has all these drawings on the wall.  So the ones that are sort of more prominent are the Darlings home, the Darling family and right next to it, it's drawing of Starboard/Port that Hook made for him on the Jolly Roger.  If they showed Rumple's hovel, then I didn't really see it.  Neal drew the places and people he missed while he was stuck in Neverland.

 

Emma never had a family, people who cared about her or a home.  Mrs. Darling decided to keep Bae right away even though he was a pre-teen, Emma was returned by her adoptive parents because they were having their own kid.

 

I'm not sure why they made Neal's definition of home so prominent in Emma's life, I don't know if it's intentional and if it is, I hope she moves away from that and finds her own definition of what home is supposed to be.  If it was unintentional, then they're dumb as a box of rocks.  Let's tell every foster child and orphan that you should keep running until you miss the last place you were at. 

[Amerilla]

Emma didn't put her parents into her thought process, either. I agree they haven't given her any good reasons to stay, but it really never came up.

 

 

As I saw it, the turning point was the Echo Cave scene.

 

 

In my view, there's never been a turning point. The writers haven't known what to do with this relationship since the Curse broke.

 

It's been two seasons, and I still can't figure out where Snow and David see Emma fitting into their lives, of what they want for their best-case scenario. And Emma...she generally displays no clearly defined feelings for either one of them - until she perceives they're about to die or be separated forever, at which point they flip the characterization switch and she becomes super huggy/kissy-mommy/daddy. Then they flip the switch again, and she defaults back to undefined mode.

 

It makes all three of them seem a lot colder than any of them are. And it's totally avoidable.

 

I was just watching a clip from when they were in Neal's cave in Neverland and he has all these drawings on the wall.  So the ones that are sort of more prominent are the Darlings home, the Darling family and right next to it, it's drawing of Starboard/Port that Hook made for him on the Jolly Roger.  If they showed Rumple's hovel, then I didn't really see it.  Neal drew the places and people he missed while he was stuck in Neverland.

 

 

Yes, but when they had Neal talking about what he saw as his home with Emma in the flashback, it as all about pre-Dark One Rumpel. In the end, that's how the writers chose to have him define his home, and that actually fit Bae's character more than his brief stay with the Darlings or with Hook. 

Edited July 6, 2014 by Amerilla

[stealinghome]

I totally get wanting to stay in New York. I do. But the writing execution just felt so repetitious and simplistic.

I honestly think it's because the writers actually do realize that the arguments for Emma leaving are far, far better than the arguments for her staying. But they couldn't let her articulate them, because then it makes the decision to stay less understandable! So instead of a thoughtful weighing the pros and cons, Emma just got to repeat "New York was great!" like a robot so no one would realize how much sense going back to New York actually makes.

 

(It's not the first time the writers have done this, either. Snow and Charming fighting over whether to go back to the Forest in S2 could have been a great debate, because there were big pros and cons to staying and going both--but instead of delving into them, we just got Snow saying "Let's stay!" and David saying "Let's go!" repeatedly.)

 

Also, count me in on the "Snowing aren't disinterested, they're just a little preoccupied" train in 3B. They were obviously happy to see Emma when she came back, and obviously hated that they missed out on a year of her life (David's "You were gonna marry someone???" still makes me crack up). But I'm pretty sure figuring out the plan of the nefarious enemy they thought cursed them takes precedence over whatever it was that they apparently weren't doing with Emma, as does preparing for the imminent birth of their next child!

 

In my view, there's never been a turning point. The writers haven't known what to do with this relationship since the Curse broke.

Word.

[YaddaYadda]

But I'm pretty sure figuring out the plan of the nefarious enemy they thought cursed them takes precedence over whatever it was that they apparently weren't doing with Emma, as does preparing for the imminent birth of their next child!

 

I know a year passed, but that baby came way too soon.  I don't know why they were in such a rush to write it.  It became even more blatant that he was just a replacement. 

 

ETA:

 

Yes, but when they had Neal talking about what he saw as his home with Emma in the flashback, it as all about pre-Dark One Rumpel. In the end, that's how the writers chose to have him define his home, and that actually fit Bae's character more than his brief stay with the Darlings or with Hook.

 

That is true.  But I personally can't discount that either.  Re-watching after you know what has happened is just really weird because you catch throwaway lines about evil munchkins on brick roads and weirdness like that makes so much more sense afterwards.  Neal chose to speak of the home he had with Rumple, he was his father and at the end of the day, he didn't want to leave until the whole magic thingy took over his life.  In the meantime though, he still had two more homes and people who cared about him.  I think that's mainly the point that I was trying to make. 

Edited July 6, 2014 by YaddaYadda

[stealinghome]

I don't know why they were in such a rush to write it.

Because Ginny was pregnant.

 

She said in an interview that the writers had always planned for Snowing to get pregnant once Josh and Ginny did.

Edited July 6, 2014 by stealinghome

[KingOfHearts]

I know a year passed, but that baby came way too soon.  I don't know why they were in such a rush to write it.  It became even more blatant that he was just a replacement. 

 

I fear having a baby will assassinate Snow's character even further. Ruby better step up her babysitter skills!

 

 

Also, count me in on the "Snowing aren't disinterested, they're just a little preoccupied" train in 3B. 

 

I agree, but they've been disinterested even before 3B. Even when Snow and Emma talked in Snow's bedroom, Snow really didn't bring anything to the table. Her only remark was that Emma only liked New York because she forgot about her family. That's not enough. Snow, in her lifetime, has gone through a lot of the same stuff Emma has. She too has been on the run and homeless, with no family to comfort her. (Until she met the dwarves and Red) Surely she has some nuggets of wisdom there.

 

Charming has tried to warm up to Emma, but Snow has continually scared Emma off before Charming could get any closer to her. Hook: "She's a bit demanding, isn't she? I was talking about the midwife." One of my favorite lines of the season. Pretty much describes Snow in the Snow/Charming/Emma dynamic.

 

Bandit Snow could offer Emma so much if she were still around.

Edited July 6, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Mari]

I can see your points about Mary Margaret and David just being overwhelmed with the baby and Zelena.  That's probably the story the writers were going for.

 

It just would've been so easy to slip in a few tiny, tiny scenes--at least in the fairybacks--that made that connection.  Have one of them holding an Emma drawing and look sad.  Have one of the characters reference Emma and have them look sad.  Have them wistfully reference Emma at some point.

 

Instead, we got none of that at all, really, and apart from David's daddy panic, no thought to Emma in the fairybacks until they thought they'd need her to save them.

 

I don't like having to imagine that the characters feel a certain way.  They should at least provide a few reasonable clues for subtext.