S02.E01: Thoughts Of A Free Man / S02.E02: Hard Boiled

[HalcyonDays]

TURN: Washington’s Spies will premiere its Season 2 on Monday, April 13 at 9/8c with a special two-hour episode. The series will then move to Mondays at 10/9c for the remainder of the season.

 

[Primetimer]

Did the Revolutionary-spy thriller learn from its S1 mistakes? Sarah's cautiously optimistic.

Read the story

[bmoore4026]

Well, season two premiered.

 

I see Abe and Mary are still bickering and still irritating.

 

I see Abe is still incompetent as a spy.

 

I see Benjamin Tallmadge is still a more interesting character and the series should be all about him.

 

I see Simcoe is still psychotic.

 

I see Anna is still dull but still bosomy.

 

I see John Andre still has that douche braid.  He also still looks older than what he was historically.

 

I see Major Hewlett is still the American Revolution equivalent of Mr. Roper or Mr. Furley, whatever your choice.

 

I see Angus MacFacfadyen's character got all cleaned up and is in nice clothes.  I approve.

 

So, yeah.  There's all that.

 

Also, I always believed, and still do, that Peggy Shippen was the mastermind behind Benedict Arnold's betrayal.  But, no, on this series, it's all the men's doing. 

 

Also, was George III already cray-cray at this point.  I assumed that came later.

[HalcyonDays]

Aw man, I loved this premiere. I actually saw Abraham are finally competent as a spy. Not waffling, not whining about anything. He was hands down doing his thing.

 

I really like the premiere - a lot. And I have to say, my love goes out to Tallmadge (Seth Numrich is bloody hot as hell), and his demeanour and competence.

 

Mary - I don't know. I really think the show is going to have her screw things up.

 

However, I'm partial to Hewitt and honestly - Simcoe. Hewitt because he seems like a good guy trying to do the right thing. Yes, he is calculating and deceiving at times, but I think he has a good heart. Dear god, apparently I may be a Loyalist.

 

Simcoe, Love his villany. I was cheering when he was sitting doing menial work, then the orders came in for him to move on, then BOOM, here is evil Simcoe. Loved it. Same when he found those military people and basically "convinced" them of his leadership. I believe that John Graves Simcoe (thank you show for showing his full name via signature as such) was quite a noble and good man in REAL life, and was very instrumental in getting my country (Canada) kickstarted on it's path. So whilst TURN portrays Simcoe as this terrible tyrant, if you read the book this show is based on....

He's barely mentioned. Reading historical stuff on him, dude is actually a decent person overall, in my view, did good things.

But then, I'm not an American.

 

Loved seeing Abigail again and I know this will cause controversy, but liked seeing that Andre was treating her well. Again, people forget - The Dominion of Canada and England banned slavery decades before the US ever did. Again, something else to be proud of.

 

Loved seeing "Mad King George" seemingly starting down his path, and just the intrigue. And I have to say - god, thank god I'm in this time now - I don't think I could handle being a woman of that time. Dear god, the boredom and nonsense would kill me. Ugh. Terrible gossips, the lot of them.

 

But they mentioned Townsend! Yes!

 

Great premiere - lots of good stuff and really enjoyed it.

[Yolapukka]

I appreciate Mary and she's a character I find interesting and convincingly acted, but I continually feel like every bit of development or well-turned bit of dialogue is just a gesture on the part of the writers to give her slightly more complexity than the cliche of the betrayable wife without actually lifting her out of that trope. I can do without the triangle, it was the least of the first season's plot-lines, but it seems the star-crossed love between Abe and Anna will continue to be the tender heart inside the tale of espionage. Bleah.  So far, at least, it's not eating the show to the degree it did in season one.  It's good that I enjoy Anna otherwise, but I hate that her character is used so reductively as a femme fatale.   I had to roll my eyes at yet another man determining to dash himself on the rocky shoals of her heart. It verges on a comedy sketch about a film noir vamp in the colonial era, I'm glad Heather Lind has no apparent urge to play up Anna as a wily seductress, instead keeping her reactions straightforward and appropriately guarded.

 

I think Abraham is showing more definition, which isn't a reference to the shirtlessness. He seems like more of a character with a viewpoint and less a reactive everyman caught in the middle of conflicting loyalties.

 

Glad to see Simcoe back. I think the character is a horrifying delight. Also, as a Canadian, I think I will be less discomfited by the bat-shit crazy antics of this fictional version of him since he is now leading the Queen's rangers

and their actions under his command included acts such as bayonetting rebels in their sleep. 

Edited April 14, 2015 by yuggapukka

[Iboatedhere]

I loved it. I think these two episodes were better than anything that happened in season 1.

 

Glad Abe finally got his act together and is totally devoted to the cause. I couldn't stand one more second of waffling back and forth. It was driving me crazy and was one of my biggest problems with the first season. I kept forgetting he was in New York, though. My mind was constantly going to Boston. Maybe it's because I watched Sons Of Liberty during the break. That show was nuts.

 

I'm also glad there was very little Anna/Abe/Mary drama, although I'm sure it's coming. I did like the Abe/Mary scene in their room. What did they say? Mary is more than the blushing rose his brother said she was and Abe is more interesting than the cabbage farmer she was promised to? I can appreciate that shade. I wouldn't mind family drama if it just focused on the two of them. There is real conflict there. They're both trying to protect their family the best they can. I don't know why an affair and jealousy needs to be dragged into it. All the mention of Baker hurt. That poor, sweet, redcoat.

 

I loved how amazed Andre was at Franklin's inventions and that he told Simcoe to stop playing with one of them. HalcyonDays- I like that Andre is nice to Abigail as well. It was his idea to have her send something to her son for his birthday.

 

I think there is still plenty of time for Peggy to play a part in turning Arnold.

 

Hewlett asking Anna to the dinner was equal parts horrifying and adorable. So it was horrible. I do like Hewlett and the escort he hired for Abe. I like that the writers, for the most part, don't show the British as cartoon character level evil.

 

Angry Ben really works for me. But so does Non-Angry Ben. Seth has the bluest eyes.....Even whatshisface that was about to hit him said he had a pretty mouth. It was hilarious and very true.

 

I loved the tension between Ben and Caleb and their make up. Caleb might be pissed and a little insubordinate but he's not about to stand by and let his friend get his ass kicked. True brotherly love.

 

I wish there was more Washington, Arnold, Ben, and Caleb but I understand that this is a fairly large cast whose storylines can't really cross. You can't have too many of them in the same scene at the same time. I'm happy with what we got and where it's going to go.

[John S]

If any of you watched the Syfy show titled "Lost Girl", you might have recognized Ksenia Solo. She played Peggy Shippen.

[HalcyonDays]

I loved how amazed Andre was at Franklin's inventions and that he told Simcoe to stop playing with one of them. HalcyonDays- I like that Andre is nice to Abigail as well. It was his idea to have her send something to her son for his birthday.

 

Is it wrong that I am actually rooting for John Andre. I actually really like his character and the actor himself (JJ Feild). Granted, I know it probably wasn't so true in real life, but yeah, on the show, Andre treats Abigail well, so in a weird way, seeing her spying against him makes me sad.

 

Same with Simcoe, because there

is no way they can ever kill him off.And he abolished slavery in Upper Canada way before the British ever did.

Samual Roukin is brilliant at being the baddie and what can I say, loved his poetry!!

 

Oh, and useless trivia. My birthday falls every year around the August long weekend, which is a Canadian holiday and in Ontario is known as the Civic Holiday. What I didn't know until recently, is that the holiday was originally established to honour J. G. Simcoe. So thanks dude - we all get a long weekend in August and I always get a birthday long weekend because of this. Awesome!.

 

Same with the fight between Tallmadge and the others. Though I wonder was 'nutsack' a commonly used term back then? Or the other insults that Ben and Caleb threw out. These are important things to know, you know.

 

I too got a kick out of Andre marveling at/playing with Ben Franklin's inventions.

 

Angry Ben really works for me. But so does Non-Angry Ben. Seth has the bluest eyes.....Even whatshisface that was about to hit him said he had a pretty mouth. It was hilarious and very true.

 

Any Ben works for me too - damn, he's a good looking man. *sigh*

 

I feel sorry for Mary in a way - to actually be in love with her husband (though I wonder if she convinced herself she is) and to know that he isn't. I do feel bad, even though I know she's going to be very problematic. I mean, c'mon Abe. Fake it, for fucks' sake. You're a spy - selling convincing lies is part of the territory.

 

So yuggapukka and I are both Canadians. Excellent! So I wonder how many of us watch the show and post here!!

[Iboatedhere]

Is it wrong that I am actually rooting for John Andre. I actually really like his character and the actor himself (JJ Feild). Granted, I know it probably wasn't so true in real life, but yeah, on the show, Andre treats Abigail well, so in a weird way, seeing her spying against him makes me sad.

 

Isn't she just letting Anna know about Simcoe? I didn't make out what Abigail wrote down on the paper last night but it looked to be pretty short. That's not really spying. If she wanted to pass along some good information she should've let Anna know that Lee was in cahoots with Andre. I'd think Ben & Co. would want to know that.

Although that's probably the plot for next week.

[Kabota]

I really enjoyed the episodes. The opening sequence of Thoughts of a Free Man and the closing of Hard Boiled were crazyarse bookends.

I found the evolving relationship between Abe and Mary really interesting and weird. I will never care about Abe and Anna together, but the fallout and standoff between Anna and Mary adds another interesting layer to the Setauket scene. Hewlett’s awkward platonic advances to Anna were a bit of a head scratcher. Does Anna have to get all the boys? Perhaps his preoccupation with the Belle of Setauket will be the explanation for his being susceptible to Abe’s ruse…then, again, is he really taken in? I was kind of afraid that I wouldn’t totally buy Abe’s transition to “all in,” but his justifications to Mary and the fact that he’s still not a super spy, makes the transition a bit more believable.

Loved everything at Washington’s camp. Arnold’s introductory scene was epic. Despite his height, Owain Yeoman does have an Arnold look about his face, and he definitely caught all the right personality notes. Everything heads toward the Conway Cabal and more. And I just love Ben and Caleb. There are so few light moments in this show, but Caleb seems to be responsible for most of them. I wish the show would give us more of them than just walking around camp. They were pretty darn active guys historically, and it would inform their characters.

Simcoe and Andre…no good can come of this hot mess, but I will not be able to look away.

I'm glad that they've chosen to designate Abigail as Agent 355 -- that is one strong and competent woman.

I was nervous last season that he might be amalgamated with another character, so I was super thrilled to see Robert Townsend.

 

I wish there was more Washington, Arnold, Ben, and Caleb but I understand that this is a fairly large cast whose storylines can't really cross. You can't have too many of them in the same scene at the same time. I'm happy with what we got and where it's going to go.

My biggest concern is the multiple writers being able to balance such a large and often seemingly unrelated cast of characters. It resulted last year in a couple being overwritten and most being underwritten. The actors are -- each and every one -- so game and committed that they were able to make the characters come to life for me in spite of this. But I do think it's an issue that's a bit of an ongoing battle and seems to contribute to some of the the more mediocre reactions to and reviews of the show.

 

Isn't she just letting Anna know about Simcoe? I didn't make out what Abigail wrote down on the paper last night but it looked to be pretty short. That's not really spying. If she wanted to pass along some good information she should've let Anna know that Lee was in cahoots with Andre. I'd think Ben & Co. would want to know that.

One of the little slips of paper informed that Lee is a traitor. Andre treats Abigail well, but as charming and likable as he is, I assume he always has an angle. He has a certain talent for reading people, and he'll definitely play to his audience. For her part, I'm sure Abigail appreciates that he's not a brute, but her loyalty is, not unlike Mary's, to her son. As long as Anna protects Cicero, there's never going to be a competition in Abigail's mind over who deserves her loyalty.

One of the most interesting aspects of this show is the many agendas of the characters and populace. Sure, there's this war going on about who gets to decide what type of government operates in North America, but within that there were so many individual motivations concerning family, resources, money, promotions, social class, etc.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Kabota

[John S]

Isn't she just letting Anna know about Simcoe? I didn't make out what Abigail wrote down on the paper last night but it looked to be pretty short. That's not really spying. If she wanted to pass along some good information she should've let Anna know that Lee was in cahoots with Andre. I'd think Ben & Co. would want to know that.

Although that's probably the plot for next week.

General Lee - A traitor.

[ComeWhatMay]

Numrich & Feild really have it going on... Tallmadge & Andre have all the necessary gravitas as a result. When those two finally share a scene, I will be fanning myself the whole time.

Ben & Caleb are a great team & can check each other when needed. Loved Ben's realization that he was being an ass & the look on Numrich's Ben's face as Caleb walked away from him was a thing of beauty. Strong & sensitive is not something every actor can pull off. Numrich nails it with a look.   

Slow the show is perhaps, but with the strong actors, I'm not necessarily looking for shock & awe. The scenes pop on their own. 

 

I think its funny how Lind's Anna has all the men after her. Yes, she's pretty, but good grief. I found Hewlett adorably awkward & a welcome respite from Simcoe's menacing, leering, creep.

 

I still can't hate Mary for siding with the home country (I get it with family who were on both sides of that war) & especially wanting Abe to stick to her bed. Abe may not be my cup of tea (I'm a Ben girl), but they took vows, so its not outlandish to expect that he would suck it up & park his behind in her bed.

Edited April 14, 2015 by ComeWhatMay

[Iboatedhere]

One of the little slips of paper informed that Lee is a traitor.

 

Oh okay good. I have to rewatch the second episode more closely. I caught most of it while I was doing my hair this morning.

[TV Anonymous]

Now that the season started, I have a question for the moderators. Do the spoiler rules still apply for this show? In particular, spoilers from real life. Notable examples are spoilers about the result of the Revolutionary War and about the fate of General Washington.

[TV Anonymous]

Loved seeing Abigail again and I know this will cause controversy, but liked seeing that Andre was treating her well. Again, people forget - The Dominion of Canada and England banned slavery decades before the US ever did. Again, something else to be proud of.

 

But at the time of this episode, the Dominion of Canada, or even the Provinces of Lower and Upper Canada. has not existed yet. As well, slavery has not been abolished yet in the British Empire.

[Tara Ariano]

Now that the season started, I have a question for the moderators. Do the spoiler rules still apply for this show? In particular, spoilers from real life. Notable examples are spoilers about the result of the Revolutionary War and about the fate of General Washington.

 

Yeah, I definitely don't want to get spoiled as to whether America wins that war.

[David T. Cole]

 

Well known history is not spoiler territory and your examples are well known history.

[Haleth]

Also, I always believed, and still do, that Peggy Shippen was the mastermind behind Benedict Arnold's betrayal. But, no, on this series, it's all the men's doing.

I won't see the show until later tonight but I wanted to mention a book I read recently. It's a novel called The Traitor's Wife by Allison Pataki (daughter of George). It's about Peggy and Benedict (and J Andre) through the eyes of Peggy's maid. It's actually pretty awful (the author was recommended by Kathie Lee Gifford so I should have known), but the premise is that Peggy manipulated the whole thing because she was a vain, petulant brat. I'd rather think BA had more reason to betray his friends than to please his wife.

[HalcyonDays]

But at the time of this episode, the Dominion of Canada, or even the Provinces of Lower and Upper Canada. has not existed yet. As well, slavery has not been abolished yet in the British Empire.

 

Yes, you are absolutely correct, the "Dominion of Canada" did not exist, only Upper Canada (Ontario) and Lower Canada (Quebec) eventually existed due to the Constitutional Act of 1791. After the Rev War, John Graves Simcoe settled in Upper Canada and helped found the town of "York", which we know of today as Toronto (capital of Ontario).

 

He was the person who helped pass law to ban slavery in Upper Canada (Ontario). Good man.

 

The principles of the British Constitution do not admit of that slavery which Christianity condemns. The moment I assume the Government of Upper Canada under no modification will I assent to a law that discriminates by dishonest policy between natives of Africa, America or Europe.

 

The interesting thing - to me at least - is how many United Empire Loyalists settled into what eventually became Canada. There is a gravesite close to my parents house that notes the UELs buried there. UEL's are those that remained loyal to England and the Crown during and after the Rev War, and settled in the future Canada. The funny thing to me always is how those who remained loyal to the Crown, settled in our "Great White North", thrived and became a strong nation under "English rule". I mean, everyone knows that Canada is strongly influenced by the US, but still, we did pretty good as a "British colony". And very few people know that Canada became completely independent of England in 1982. Yes, just thirty so years ago. Because Canada ran pretty independently on it's own, things like this are just legal formalities but still. Blows me away. That England and it's 'tyranny' was such a burden to the eventual US (and I know exactly why), yet my country seemed to deal with England quite well and not be hobbled by it's will. Probably because England learned from the Rev War. Still...

 

Truly, I find it fascinating. Canadian history is pretty boring otherwise (lots of beaver pelts and such). Very interesting to see how different and yet how similar the two countries ended up being,

[EyewatchTV211]

I agree with those saying this show will need to be careful balancing so many characters. That said, I'd almost like Robert Townsend to overtake Abe as the main character at some point. I didn't read Alexander Rose's book - I happened to read another very similar book on the same topic just because I saw it in the Barnes and Noble window. Reading this other book,

I got the impression that Robert Townsend was a much greater player in the whole spy thing once he got into it, while Abe continued to always be nervous and threatening to quit and asking for more funds from Washington.  

 

Selfishly and without considering the story, Ben would ideally be the main character. I enjoy the character/actor for all of the reasons everyone else has discussed. But the writers had already changed their minds from having him be the main character, so I will settle for what I can get. 

 

I'm still not sure they are setting Abigail up to be Agent 355. Wasn't Agent 355 always in NY? Unless they are just going to use this as another area to fictionalize the story, which is possible. 

Edited April 15, 2015 by HalcyonDays
Added spoiler tags...

[Iboatedhere]

I'd like to have Abigail be Agent 355. I don't think we need another character to be introduced.

[HalcyonDays]

Now that the season started, I have a question for the moderators. Do the spoiler rules still apply for this show? In particular, spoilers from real life. Notable examples are spoilers about the result of the Revolutionary War and about the fate of General Washington.

 

Hmm...well, the fate of the Rev War, and the fate of Washington are pretty well known throughout history, and I'm not an American. The book that this show is based off of, is also quite different - i.e. the show takes liberties, but at the same time, DOES respect the history in a way. It's a tough one, because everyone is versed in the history in varying levels.

 

We do have two threads that may help;

 

One - unspoiled speculation: Turn Speculation: Intelligence in America

 

Two - Spoiler laden stuff: Spoilers and Speculation: Smithy, Sailor, Soldier Spy.

[attica]

I'd rather think BA had more reason to betray his friends than to please his wife.

 

They weren't, however, so much his friends. He thought all of them inadequate fame whores (projection, much?), and that GW wasn't working nearly hard enough to convince Congress to cough up the cash he thought himself owed for those injuries. So, yeah, he wanted to please Peggy, but more than that he wanted to spite the Patriot side and even more than that, he wanted the cash (and the brigadiership the Brits promised him).  

 

The show continues taking liberties with Andre's role, but I think it's useful as a dramatic device. (Andre actually wanted to marry Peggy himself -- he was aristocratic but poor, she was the most eligible woman in town, and seemed to be amenable to his advances. But then he got posted out of town, and her affections turned to Arnold.)

[LittleIggy]

If any of you watched the Syfy show titled "Lost Girl", you might have recognized Ksenia Solo. She played Peggy Shippen.

She looked too old. Peggy Shippen was 17 years old at that time.

Charles Lee historically dressed in a slovenly way and always had his dogs with him.

[TV Anonymous]

The interesting thing - to me at least - is how many United Empire Loyalists settled into what eventually became Canada. There is a gravesite close to my parents house that notes the UELs buried there. UEL's are those that remained loyal to England and the Crown during and after the Rev War, and settled in the future Canada. The funny thing to me always is how those who remained loyal to the Crown, settled in our "Great White North", thrived and became a strong nation under "English rule". I mean, everyone knows that Canada is strongly influenced by the US, but still, we did pretty good as a "British colony". And very few people know that Canada became completely independent of England in 1982. Yes, just thirty so years ago. Because Canada ran pretty independently on it's own, things like this are just legal formalities but still. Blows me away. That England and it's 'tyranny' was such a burden to the eventual US (and I know exactly why), yet my country seemed to deal with England quite well and not be hobbled by it's will. Probably because England learned from the Rev War. Still...

 

Out of topic:

 

I see that you see the Canadian history through an anglophone point of view. And that is fine. However, some people in where I live consider that the UELs to be no more than robbers, thieves and colonizers that took lands away from the Canadiens - also known as the Habitants (see there? Canadiens and Habitants?). And those English descendants that would make those Canadiens to be colonize, to be oppressed and to live under the culture that is not their own for more than 2.5 centuries.

 

I am not saying which one is right or wrong, just offering different perspective.

 

So back to the topic, at the time the episode happened, there was no Canada at all. There was only the Province of Quebec.

[HalcyonDays]

Out of topic:

 

I see that you see the Canadian history through an anglophone point of view. And that is fine. However, some people in where I live consider that the UELs to be no more than robbers, thieves and colonizers that took lands away from the Canadiens - also known as the Habitants (see there? Canadiens and Habitants?). And those English descendants that would make those Canadiens to be colonize, to be oppressed and to live under the culture that is not their own for more than 2.5 centuries.

 

I am not saying which one is right or wrong, just offering different perspective.

 

So back to the topic, at the time the episode happened, there was no Canada at all. There was only the Province of Quebec.

 

You are Quebecois, yes? 

 

Totally I have the Anglophone view of history - I'm from Ontario, but my parents are East European immigrants. But still, what we are taught is most likely different then yourself. But you are correct - Canada as it is now did not exist. People forget that.

 

However, yeah, I see where you coming from. But if you want to go back, the UELs and others are people that took lands and such from the natives who originally settled on those lands. So the Anglos and the Francophones are both entitied, that have colonized and taken over the true inhabitants of the land that eventually became Canada.

 

I still believe that England was a decent influence on us, for the majority of Canada as a whole. And I will be very verbal about Quebec separating, because I don't think that Quebecers really understand the implications....

[TV Anonymous]

If Quebecois means a translation of Quebecer, that is the demonym of those live in Quebec, yes I am. If however, Quebecois means a member of la nation québécoise, then I am certainly not. I am an English-leaning allophone Asian.

Edited April 15, 2015 by TV Anonymous

[Granny58]

1.  When I was 13 I read the book "Peggy" many times in 1 year.  It was about Mrs. Benedict Arnold.  I don't remember the book but I am glad to see her character. 

2.  Anybody else surprised by how ripped Jamie Bell is?  

[Kabota]

I'm still not sure they are setting Abigail up to be Agent 355. Wasn't Agent 355 always in NY? Unless they are just going to use this as another area to fictionalize the story, which is possible.

I'd swear, though I'm unlikely to find the source easily again (but I'll try) that one of the producers referred to Abigail as 355 in a recently published interview. It struck me, because up to this point, I'd figured that Anna was going to play that part. (Alexander Rose, himself, doesn't believe

that 355 as an embedded long term agent is supported by anything more than myth. I think Kilmeade's position is quite different, but I don't know how or if he's documented it well.)

I'm going to respond to other points in this post, but as we're discussing Rose's book, I guess I'll take it to spec with spoilers?

[pasdetrois]

So glad the show is back! And improved.

 

Here in DC we are close to a lot of colonial history, but somehow I've never made it up to places like Valley Forge. It's thrilling to see these historical characters in the old houses and locations. I'm constantly distracted by the old-house porn.

 

I adore the actors who are giving us Hewlett, Simcoe and Andre. And King George III!

 

There's something quite fetching about men in tight britches and tall boots, striding about their business.

[John S]

Did anyone hear the crack that one of Washington's officers made about the fact that he had a contingent of "young men" that were his closest confidants - mocking him because he didn't have any sons?

Martha had 2 children from a previous marriage but none with George.

I had never heard that people considered him to be a homosexual - but MAYBE some people did - or MAYBE the writers decided to put that into the story.

[ganesh]

I was very entertained throughout. I really thought the injection of humor balanced out the episode. "Do you want to go to dinner with me? Uh, as friends! Yes, friends. Will you just go?"

 

I like that 'Culper' is all in on spying now too. Even though he's kind of a terribly skilled spy. 

 

They did a good job giving us the English side imo since we need to have sufficient investment in them to buy that Arnold turns. 

 

I like shows with predetermined outcomes because it's always like a few choices here and there could have led to something different. 

[Granny58]

"I had never heard that people considered him to be a homosexual - but MAYBE some people did - or MAYBE the writers decided to put that into the story."

 

I glanced at an article in the Daily Mail that someone has written a book describing how both Lincoln and Washington were homosexuals, because that's de rigueur these days.

[ganesh]

The Lincoln rumor has been around for nearly ever because he shared a bed in a rooming house with another guy at one point. Which was common at the time apparently. 

[HalcyonDays]

Did anyone hear the crack that one of Washington's officers made about the fact that he had a contingent of "young men" that were his closest confidants - mocking him because he didn't have any sons?

 

I had never heard that people considered him to be a homosexual - but MAYBE some people did - or MAYBE the writers decided to put that into the story.

 

I glanced at an article in the Daily Mail that someone has written a book describing how both Lincoln and Washington were homosexuals, because that's de rigueur these days.

 

Oh, I thought they were referencing Baron von Steuben  I thought they quickly referred to him being at the table too. He was a Chief of Staff for Washington and wrote the famous "Blue Book" for military regimental training. He also instituted a cleanliness regime for the soldiers that greatly improved their health and overall conditions. Before that, they were is pretty bad shape. He was rumoured to "enjoy the company of men" and because he was so valuable an asset, that fact was ignored (mostly).

[John S]

Lincoln DID have children - so IF he was a homosexual, he was able to hide it well.

Oh, I thought they were referencing Baron von Steuben  I thought they quickly referred to him being at the table too. He was a Chief of Staff for Washington and wrote the famous "Blue Book" for military regimental training. He also instituted a cleanliness regime for the soldiers that greatly improved their health and overall conditions. Before that, they were is pretty bad shape. He was rumoured to "enjoy the company of men" and because he was so valuable an asset, that fact was ignored (mostly).

IF they were talking about Von Steuben, then I was mistaken about who they were talking about. Now he WAS  a homosexual. It was probably the main reason why no army in the world wanted his services - but the Americans were SO desperate that they hired him.

Since everybody was criticizing Washington for all of his losses, I thought that they were talking about him.

[Rhetorica]

I know I shouldn't, but I love Simcoe! In small doses, though. His emotions are just written all over his face. I enjoyed Abraham's egg scheme. Very clever. I hope Anna and Mary team up and forget about Abraham. Hewlett was waiting for the bust, right? So is he going to end up a turncoat?

[Kabota]

Oh, I thought they were referencing Baron von Steuben

They were talking about Washington, that is, in reference to the many young officers who assisted him as aids and who made up his military "family." Over the course of the war, there were dozens, including Lafayette, Hamilton, Tench Tilghman, David Humphreys, et al. For the show's purposes, I assume it was a multilayered insult meant to question Washington's sexuality (and by extension Ben's) and virility, as that was still seen as tied to the ability to father sons. I can't answer as to whether Washington's sexuality was questioned back then, but apparently it's something people are speculating about and analyzing these days? Obviously, also, it's not uncommon for some childless people to "adopt" nieces, nephews, friends, etc. in a maternal/paternal relationship.

Baron von Steuben would be a fun and fascinating character to see! He certainly succeeded in inspiring his men, whereas Pulaski was less successful.

Edited April 18, 2015 by Kabota

[John S]

They were talking about Washington, that is, in reference to the many young officers who assisted him as aids and who made up his military "family." Over the course of the war, there were dozens, including Lafayette, Hamilton, Tench Tilghman, David Humphreys, et al. For the show's purposes, I assume it was a multilayered insult meant to question Washington's sexuality (and by extension Ben's) and virility, as that was still seen as tied to the ability to father sons. I can't answer as to whether Washington's sexuality was questioned back then, but apparently it's something people are speculating about and analyzing these days? Obviously, also, it's not uncommon for some childless people to "adopt" nieces, nephews, friends, etc. in a maternal/paternal relationship.

Baron von Steuben would be a fun and fascinating character to see! He certainly succeeded in inspiring his men, whereas Pulaski was less successful.

Thank You.

[ganesh]

The Drunk History show did a hilarious segment on Baron von Steuben, actually. Because, yes, he cleaned up all the regiments and was a huge help to the rebel military. I think they said he even had a partner (French guy maybe?), so it was an open secret, but no one really cared. Which is ironic considering contemporary times to me. 

[OakGoblinFly]

I won't see the show until later tonight but I wanted to mention a book I read recently. It's a novel called The Traitor's Wife by Allison Pataki (daughter of George). It's about Peggy and Benedict (and J Andre) through the eyes of Peggy's maid. It's actually pretty awful (the author was recommended by Kathie Lee Gifford so I should have known), but the premise is that Peggy manipulated the whole thing because she was a vain, petulant brat. I'd rather think BA had more reason to betray his friends than to please his wife.

 

 

I had to pre-read that book for a project ----- awful, awful, awful.

 

Though I will say, the characterization of Peggy Shippen isn't too far off - she was manipulative, vain, and petulant as well as very intelligent and demonstrated great political savvy.  I wont' say she was the mastermind behind Arnold's defection, however I am convinced that she pour gasoline on the fire and helped facilitate Arnold turning traitor.

 

I did like the little game between her and Andre as it rang very true to me (at least based on what I've read - and I've read a lot about this time period).

 

I liked that Jamie Bell was given good material and a new wig and that he's embracing his spy craft (though that differs from historic Abe - I can deal with it).

 

I like the addition of Mary and the monkey wrench she throws into the mix - I don't like the love triangle.

 

I liked seeing different sides to Ben (though his new wig wasn't very good) and his loyalty to George Washington (historically accurate).

 

Every time I see JJ Field I want him to do a movie with Tom Hiddleston.

[zoey1996]

So glad the show is back! And improved.

 

Here in DC we are close to a lot of colonial history, but somehow I've never made it up to places like Valley Forge. It's thrilling to see these historical characters in the old houses and locations. I'm constantly distracted by the old-house porn.

 

Quite a few scenes from these episodes were filmed in Colonial Williamsburg.  I squeed when I recognized the marching field behind the Courthouse, with the steeple on Bruton Parish Church in the distance, the George Wythe House, etc.

I have trouble keeping some of the characters straight, but I'm learning.  Was it Anna who got the message sewn in the shirt by Abigail?  Is she pretending to be a Loyalist but is actually a Patriot?  Or do I have that all wrong?

[OakGoblinFly]

Quite a few scenes from these episodes were filmed in Colonial Williamsburg.  I squeed when I recognized the marching field behind the Courthouse, with the steeple on Bruton Parish Church in the distance, the George Wythe House, etc.

I have trouble keeping some of the characters straight, but I'm learning.  Was it Anna who got the message sewn in the shirt by Abigail?  Is she pretending to be a Loyalist but is actually a Patriot?  Or do I have that all wrong?

 

 

That is correct.  

 

Abigail used to be Anna's house slave; when the Magistrate enforced the attainder Anna lost the pub (now owned by Mr. DeLong) and the slaves (Abigail was sent to Major Andre by Major Hewlett as a favor to Anna).  

 

Anna still cares for Abigail's son, Cicero.  Abigail spies on Major Andre for Anna and Anna sends the information to Ben.

 

Anna, like Abe is pretending to be a Loyalist; if they were caught they'd be tried and executed as spies.

Here in DC we are close to a lot of colonial history, but somehow I've never made it up to places like Valley Forge. It's thrilling to see these historical characters in the old houses and locations. I'm constantly distracted by the old-house porn..

 

 

I wonder if they'd ever make it to Mount Vernon or Old Town Alexandria as there is quite a bit of George Washington related history there (or at least name drop those places). 

[HalcyonDays]

I liked seeing different sides to Ben (though his new wig wasn't very good) and his loyalty to George Washington (historically accurate).

 

Are they really wearing wings though? Extensions yes, but I thought they just grew out their hair a little more. Season 1, both had their short hair, and a ponytail (queue) attached to the back. There were flyaways all of the time at the front. Both Seth's and Jamie's hair now looks like they grew it out, so it could be pulled back into a (albeit short) queue, and then they just attached the tail. *shrugs* I certainly would have grown it out, instead of contending with a wig, but that's just me.

 

They were talking about Washington, that is, in reference to the many young officers who assisted him as aids and who made up his military "family."

 

I thought for sure they were talking about Baron von Steuben. I swear I read somewhere that he would be a character introduced, but maybe I am confusing it with something like Drunk History or something. My mistake.

 

I liked seeing different sides to Ben (though his new wig wasn't very good) and his loyalty to George Washington (historically accurate).

 

Me too. He, Caleb, Simcoe and John Andre are my favourites I think. I guess if you are an American viewer, they are supposed to appear to be the big bad villians to root against, but they are fleshed out well and loyal to their countries/future countries/leaders.

[Kabota]

I know that someone posted pics on twitter or Instagram -- maybe it was Ksenia Solo -- of a Peggy wig and an Abe wig. Jamie Bell had his hair quite short for Fantastic Four filming, hence the wig. Owain Yeoman and Ian Kahn also had their hair short to accommodate wigs. The white wigs are obvious, but I believe the rest of the main players, JJ Field, Seth Numrich, Sam Roukin, and Dan Henshall have grown out their hair and are wigless, though Andre still has plenty of extensions!

eta: And then there was shaved and cleaned up Rogers...what hilarity!

Edited April 20, 2015 by Kabota