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Spoilers and Speculation: Smithy Sailor Soldier Spy

HalcyonDays

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HalcyonDays

HalcyonDays

This thread is intended to provide an area to discuss spoilers and any spoiled speculation about TURN.

No spoiler tags required!

 

For now, this thread can include any spoilers about actual events of the Revolutionary War and how those events will weave into the series storylines. If there is a need for a thread that does not include actual Rev War information, then that can be created.

 

If you want to discuss the show without being spoiled, please go to this thread. TURN Speculation: Intelligence in America

 

For any media releases, please go to the Turn in the Media.

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Kabota

Kabota

From VMepicgrl in the s2 ep1/2 thread:

I agree with those saying this show will need to be careful balancing so many characters. That said, I'd almost like Robert Townsend to overtake Abe as the main character at some point. I didn't read Alexander Rose's book - I happened to read another very similar book on the same topic just because I saw it in the Barnes and Noble window. Reading this other book,

I got the impression that Robert Townsend was a much greater player in the whole spy thing once he got into it, while Abe continued to always be nervous and threatening to quit and asking for more funds from Washington.

Selfishly and without considering the story, Ben would ideally be the main character. I enjoy the character/actor for all of the reasons everyone else has discussed. But the writers had already changed their minds from having him be the main character, so I will settle for what I can get.

The Rose book definitely seems to support the point of Townsend as the key agent in NYC, but both he and Woodhull were skittish, and in most cases, rightfully so. Rose actually goes so far as to compare Woodhull to "selfless Raoul Wallenberg" and Townsend to "the tortured, flawed Oskar Schindler." I was really worried that with tptb's ongoing push of Abe as THE MAIN CHARACTER, (only Washington and Arnold, besides, had that kind of facetime in promotions) that they might make him both Culpers. It will be interesting to see what of Townsend's own mythologized history will make it into the story because there's some juicy stuff there.

From Rose's book and other sources, it seemed to me that the real backbone of the entire operation were Tallmadge and Brewster. They were both involved with intelligence before the Culper Ring and when the Culpers were no longer willing to take risks, they kept going with other informants, though not with the same degree of success always. Between administrative duties, policing, raiding, privateering, etc., they both did their own reconnoitering, Tallmadge even disguised as a king's man. Rose wrote that by the end of the war, the only agent Washington "continued to take interest in" was Brewster. So, I find it frustrating when they're reduced to mere reactionary characters...but I do acknowledge the difficult task the writers have in sifting through these characters' disparate stories and trying to find the right balance, so that when they finally intersect, it's a revelatory moment the audience actually feels.

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HalcyonDays

HalcyonDays

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I read/have A. Rose's book too, Kabota, and I completely agree. Townsend is a much bigger player in the spy ring, so it will be interesting to see where the show itself takes it.

 

Also, yeah, Abe is portrayed throughout the book as whining and complaining about money and being afraid of being caught, but can you blame him? I certainly don't. And once you find out that the Culper Spy Ring's activities were only realized/discovered in the early 1900's, that makes their actions and methods even more admirable. And the impression I got from the book was that without Tallmadge and the Culper spy ring, the future America would have LOST the war. I know it's the spin he puts in the writing, but still. The information that was provided via Culper et all seemed very influential in helping Washington win the war. That's just how I read it.

 

Tallmadge is definitely the most important player in all of this. The show decided to focus on Woodhull, but Ben Tallmadge is the man truly responsible for this effectiveness and success of the spy ring. Fascinating!

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EyewatchTV211

EyewatchTV211

Thanks for clarifying some other points from the other book and other sources.

 

I definitely can't blame Abe for acting how he did. I'm just saying that I'm not sure he made for the best choice as a main character. Those personality traits seem to be what had turned off a lot of people on this forum, at least. There has been some more positive reaction to him taking a more decisive and confident role in the first two new episodes, but I think that switch is very much part of the fictionalized character the show has already created (wife, discord with father). I've heard some of their explanation for why they went that route, but it still seems strange to me to go that way and have to add more fictional interest when you have these other characters who were already more interesting and dramatic and decisive. And while Townsend was also nervous and on edge, he was in the center of things a bit more being in the city and right in the mix of the enemy and seemed to have greater contributions. I read this book awhile ago, so I could totally be remembering wrong or twisting stuff around in my head. 

 

I'd be all for Tallmadge and Brewster playing the bigger roles. 

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EyewatchTV211

EyewatchTV211

(edited)

This has a fun summary of the ring, mostly surrounding the role of Tallmadge. http://www.jcs-group.com/military/war1775fought/tallmadge.html

I hope Ben's real-life awesomeness translates onto the show, soon. They seem to be making him stumble a lot more than he did in real life - I guess so we can be excited for a turnaround. Meanwhile, Andre was actually the inexperienced one.

 

The site also highlights again that Townsend was really the key spy.

Edited by VMepicgrl
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Kabota

Kabota

(edited)

Ok, I'm putting this out there, based on the the after show preview and synopses that have appeared around the net: When Hewlett escapes, whether on his own or Ben and Caleb rescue him (but as nothing Ben does this season is allowed to have positive results, less likely), Simcoe is going to take the credit for getting him back. We know it was the furthest thing from his intent, but he'll use it against Anna, before he does whatever else he'll do to get Hewlett out of the picture.

Also, looks like Abe won't return from prison until 9, The Prodigal. I suspect he will have intel that will kick things back into operation. The last episode is also called The Battle of Setauket as last season. There are mistakes all over the AMC site, so it could be one. If not, perhaps the title is metaphorical. I've assumed a Monmouthish battle would end some of this angst.

ETA: Ok, Zap2it has an updated list of episodes and descriptions, and the last episode is actually called Gunpowder, Treason, and Plot. And it will be Monmouth. And more crazy. And the description of The Prodigal is as I thought.

Edited by Kabota
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Iboatedhere

Iboatedhere

There should be a legitimate battle scene coming up.

 

In one of the previews before the season started there was a split second shot of Ben (I know it was him because of the penis shaped epaulettes on his shoulders) on a horse killing a redcoat with a sword.

 

I guess Amazon Prime accidentally uploaded episode 7 instead of episode 6 in some overseas countries (I'm in the US) so some people have already seen it.

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Kabota

Kabota

I heard that, though nothing particularly more specific in spoilers than can be inferred from that preview and the sneak peek. I'm kind of dreading this episode. It looks so dark :'(

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EyewatchTV211

EyewatchTV211

I'm kind of dreading it because it looks like more of the team cleaning up messes instead of moving the spy stuff forward. I've enjoyed the faster pace of this season, but I am starting to become frustrated that Ben and the ring are not getting ANY useful intel. I know I've shared before that it was a slow process in reality, but there's slow and there's nothing. I enjoy the actor who plays Andre and the character, but with the fan reaction to him, the writers seem to have gone too far in portraying his all-around awesomeness at the expense of making the Culper Ring seem very incompetent. I get trying to make the Americans the underdogs to fit with the rest of the war, but the ring was actually pretty professional and successful pretty fast and Andre actually wasn't so great. 

 

I'm eager for Townsend to join the group and hope that they don't wait for the finale. Hopefully that will up the spying and successes. I think some people have been right on that Simcoe heading to Oyster Bay to look for Culper will be what pushes him to join the ring. I read somewhere that the real Simcoe did actually cause problems with Townsend's family and that this led to his joining.

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Kabota

Kabota

I'm kind of dreading it because it looks like more of the team cleaning up messes instead of moving the spy stuff forward. I've enjoyed the faster pace of this season, but I am starting to become frustrated that Ben and the ring are not getting ANY useful intel. I know I've shared before that it was a slow process in reality, but there's slow and there's nothing. I enjoy the actor who plays Andre and the character, but with the fan reaction to him, the writers seem to have gone too far in portraying his all-around awesomeness at the expense of making the Culper Ring seem very incompetent. I get trying to make the Americans the underdogs to fit with the rest of the war, but the ring was actually pretty professional and successful pretty fast and Andre actually wasn't so great. 

 

I'm eager for Townsend to join the group and hope that they don't wait for the finale. Hopefully that will up the spying and successes. I think some people have been right on that Simcoe heading to Oyster Bay to look for Culper will be what pushes him to join the ring. I read somewhere that the real Simcoe did actually cause problems with Townsend's family and that this led to his joining.

These have been my thoughts, too, pretty much ever since the third episode. I've enjoyed the season a great deal, but have also found the particular aspects you mention really annoying and counterproductive given the short 10 episode season.
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ZoqFotPik

ZoqFotPik

I'm guessing that Abe, and maybe Townsend, will somehow be involved in getting France into the war. "Valley Forge" took place in January 7th 1778, and France declares war in February, 1778. Maybe they intercept Rodgers in New York as he his on his way back to England with the letter. That would show Washington that Tallmadge can run a spy ring and give the Americans a victory. What ever happens, I'm predicting the season ends with news of France entering the war reaching the Colonies.

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Kabota

Kabota

According to the brief episode descriptions on AMC and elsewhere, which are sometimes altered after airing, the formal French involvement occurs in episode 8. (This is the SPOILERS section, but I still keep wanting to tag stuff!) They did a casting call for Lafayette, and it appears from the preview airing on AMC that we see him in "Providence." Abe is supposed to return with crucial information in 9, "The Prodigal." He must learn something in prison, I assume. At one point, the IMDB cast listing for 9 or 10 included a Thomas Hickey, so I thought the info may again have something to do with an attempt on Washington's life, bringing the season full circle. But Hickey's name is missing now -- you never know with IMDB. Tallmadge's boxing partner, William Bradford, along with Gates, etc. is back for the last two episodes and the "big battle," I assume?

Any ideas as to what they're doing with the Turtle in 8? It was never particularly successfully employed during the war in reality.

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Iboatedhere

Iboatedhere

(edited)

On my DRV description for the next episode it says that Simcoe is looking for the spy in Oyster Bay. I'm thinking that awesome, Papa Townsend is brutally murdered by Simcoe (because if Simcoe is involved so is brutality and we're also obviously not allowed to have nice things this season) and that will bring Robert into the ring. That would also get rid of any questions about why Abe doesn't just bypass Robert and work with his dad.

 

Bradford is such a little shit. I'm kind of excited to see him again.

 

I have no idea what they're doing with the Turtle short of trying to break Abe out or getting in contact with Townsend. Whatever they're doing I just hope they're successful. They need a win.

 

http://www.zap2it.com/tv/turn-washingtons-spies/episodes/SH018234520000 < I found this link through Tumblr. The final episode summary is equal parts terrible and amazing:

Gunpowder, Treason, and Plot

Abe plots Major Hewlett's assassination; Ben fights at the Battle of Monmouth.

 

What the hell, Abe?

 

Yay! Battle!

Edited by Iboatedhere
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Kabota

Kabota

(edited)

I have no idea what they're doing with the Turtle short of trying to break Abe out or getting in contact with Townsend. Whatever they're doing I just hope they're successful. They need a win.

http://www.zap2it.com/tv/turn-washingtons-spies/episodes/SH018234520000 < I found this link through Tumblr. The final episode summary is equal parts terrible and amazing:

Gunpowder, Treason, and Plot

Abe plots Major Hewlett's assassination; Ben fights at the Battle of Monmouth.

 

What the hell, Abe?

 

Yay! Battle!

I saw that a bit ago, and went "what?!" But I'll bet he's conspiring with Simcoe in order to screw him over.

ETA clarity: I'm thinking this will be like ep. 9 of the first season. Abe will pretend to be doing one thing, while actually working towards another. Hewlett won't be his real target. Destroying Simcoe will be the end.

As for the Turtle, I think the announcer does say something about "a daring rescue attempt." Since Abe is not on a ship, I don't quite know how that's going anywhere but fail. I really want something achieved by the Turtle mission, but if it doesn't help Abe, how will he get out? I've assumed it would be Hewlett's word, eventually, but now I have no clue. I've seen it suggested that Abe's dad left something, document-wise, on the prison table. I've not rewatched ep. 7, so I wasn't sure if that was really a thing or not. Don't know if I'd want Papa Woodhull coming to the rescue, yet again, though.

Of course, historical Tallmadge was not at the Battle of Monmouth, but since we've pretty much missed all his action around NYC, during the Philadelphia campaign, and between the Delaware and Schuylkill, I'm cool with the revision. As long as he doesn't die.

Edited by Kabota
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Kabota

Kabota

Wonder if they filmed The Meschianza? Considering what the mini episode summaries predict, it would seem to have to be this week if they were going to show it.

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Kabota

Kabota

(edited)

With just four more episodes to go this season, I wondered if anyone had ideas about how the Andre/Arnold plot will go down? The basic outline supported by the paperwork we have from the era, by both sides, seems to indicate that it really was a pretty chance crumbling. Andre doing just about all the wrong things, the militia men happening upon him at the right time, Tallmadge recalling Andre because he remembered the alias Arnold had used for Andre in correspondence, etc. Of course, we may not have all the paperwork...and there are several legends about warnings from Sally Townsend and other sources that may have tipped the Continentals off. I suspect that the writers will go with the most dramatic version they can conjure up, no doubt involving Abigail, I'm thinking. Will the info come too late, though, as we've seen can be a problem? Or will the info not be taken seriously because of the lack of trust surrounding all the members, etc.? I also expect that they may include Robert Rogers as some part of this in his quest against Andre. I'm not a fan, so I really wish he would go away before all this goes down.

Also, though we've seen Mary with the gun, and it looks like things will get dicey with her next week, I believe that ultimately it will be Richard who saves the day in Setauket, and possibly little Thomas, and "redeems" himself in the process. I wouldn't be surprised if he dies, too. As for Simcoe, he is the proverbial roach.

Really looking forward to the scenes with Andre and Tallmadge. The pic Andrew McCarthy posted on twitter sometime back of the two of them in the carriage has me pumped. 

Edited by Kabota
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