S03.E11: One Day In The Life Of Anton Baklanov

[maczero]

Can someone explain to me why Stan and Oleg think their superiors would be willing to trade Milky Way lover for Nina?  I mean if Stan exposes her and makes the arrest.  Why would he expect Gaad or whomever to want to give up a newly acquired spy for Nina?  Wouldn't they view Nina as someone who's outlived her usefulness?

Elizabeth knows that Hans screwed up his mission and then went rogue by killing someone.  Why in the world would she suggest him to back up Philip?

 

Maybe she thinks he's better than no back-up.

When Paige was asking a lot of questions about Philip and Elizabeth's life - what was true and what was a lie - I was surprised to hear Philip say that the travel agency was real, and that they don't know that P & E are spies. How can that be? Aren't they dropping in and out at all times? How do they explain their irregular hours? Irregular everything?

As others have pointed out, they own the place so who's to tell them what hours they should keep?  Besides if their employees can handle most of the day to day stuff then there may be no need for them to be there everyday.  Also, I notice a lot of their ongoing operations take place at night so I wouldn't be surprise if they're regularly going into the office during the day.

What was Philip thinking during his sex scene?  He looked more troubled than excited.

You know it used to bother me that Philip didn't seem to enjoy having sex with hot women.  Hell, even Martha has proven to be quite a freak.  That was until they revealed his sex worker training.  That said, you'd think an unsolicited bj from his wife would at least lighten his mood.

One tiny little thing in the episode kind of broke my heart--when Paige asked whether they were really friends with Mr. Beeman at all, Philip quickly said that they WERE friends.  And, sadly for both Stan and Phiip, they are.  Of all the explosions to come, I dread Stan/Philip the most.  I really dig their friendship, and it's something that both of them really need.  And unfortunately, there's no way they'll be able to sustain it.

I wonder if Stan is of any real use to Philip and Elizabeth.  At first, Stan used to blab a little too much about his work but since his wife left he's been pretty tight lipped about work.  I'm sure Philip isn't stupid enough to ask Stan about his work so it makes me wonder why he hangs out with Stan if he isn't much use to him.  I guess he really does see Stan as a friend.

Edited April 9, 2015 by maczero

[5cents-worth]

I loved the POV shot of Taffet when Martha was being interviewed. All I could focus on was his nose.  And I wonder if Phillip's advice to Martha might come back and bite him in the ass eventually.  "You know more than he does, you have the power, turn it around on him," etc.  It's dangerous teaching that kind of stuff to a woman with a gun, Phillip.  

 

I posted on another thread last week that Elizabeth and Paige could go to a Soviet satellite country like Hungary or Czechoslovakia to meet Nadezhda's mother. I suspect the most likely meet-up point could be East Germany-it could be finagled (perhaps by Claudia?) and would be the most suitable way to keep the US authorities from becoming suspicious.

 

Good thought. They wouldn't even need to go that far - some Russian citizens traveled to non eastern bloc countries for various reasons.  And there are plenty of European countries where someone from the Soviet Union might travel for medical treatment without arousing much suspicion.  Paris, for example.  Which is also a great place for an Elizabeth-Paige getaway.  Also, we saw in flashbacks that they arranged for Elizabeth to meet General Zukov in Europe once in a while - and he, being Soviet military, would have been more likely to be under Western observation than a sick old lady.

Edited April 9, 2015 by 5cents-worth

[John S]

Did anyone watch the previews for next week? They go through them so quickly that it is sometimes difficult to pick up. I THOUGHT that I saw Paige's hands bound. I'm not talking about American law enforcement. Does anyone know if I am correct or not?

[Quando]

 

It astounds me that Taffet did not use a lie detector with Martha.  That doesn't seem plausible to me.  She is one of their prime suspects: as Walter told her, she had more access to that pen than just about anyone else.

Exactly.  In fact, they would have given everyone a lie detector test as soon as they found the bug.  They gave Stan one in a previous episode, and the FBI/CIA loves those things.

[Umbelina]

Can someone explain to me why Stan and Oleg think their superiors would be willing to trade Milky Way lover for Nina?  I mean if Stan exposes her and makes the arrest.  Why would he expect Gaad or whomever to want to give up a newly acquired spy for Nina?  Wouldn't they view Nina as someone who's outlived her usefulness?

You've got me.  The whole "plan" seems extremely whack to me.  Why on earth would anyone in the KGB or FBI want Nina back?  Her cover is blown, she's no longer valuable in any way.

I'm with you to a large extent. What bugs me about her behavior is the way she is reacting to their answers, too. They tell her the truth, and she gets all huffy as if she is entitled to some other answers that would be more to her liking, and she is acting like she places blame on her parents for not providing those other answers to her. There are no other answers! I understand that Paige doesn't know how she can believe anything they say, but those are honest answers, she is just choosing to not accept them - and it's somehow Philip and Elizabeth's fault! It's borderline insufferable to me.

 

 

Why SHOULD she believe them?  They have lied to her for her entire life.  They are spies.  One of the most intelligent things Paige is doing is doubting every single word out of their mouths.  As she should.

Why do I have a feeling that Elizabeth's mother has been dead for a very long time and the tapes/letters were done in advance? And what if they do go back to Russia and see just how things are? Somehow I'm thinking Paige will be even more confused by the contrast. 

 

I think the actress playing Paige is doing a great job. Anger has set in now - and betrayal - and it simmers below the surface. Elizabeth is puzzled because she really thought Paige would take this better and they'd bond and it seems the opposite is happening. I'm glad Elizabeth is starting to question everything. Paige has learned her entire life has been a lie and of course she's upset, hurt, angry and betrayed.

I agree, I don't believe a single word from Gabriel's mouth.  I doubt the mother story, AND the son story.  They could be true, or complete lies.

 

The actress is doing a good job, so different from her real-life (to me) ditzy, immature in a good way, spoiler spilling self.

 

They wouldn't be the first business owners who let their show up whenever they feel like it, and hire a manager to actually run the place. Their employees probably think it's weird that they spend so much time at the office behind closed doors, but I doubt they suspect much.

 

 

Paige's smugness has been an issue for me ever since she found Jesus. I think it's perfectly believable that a child of Elizabeth would act that way - I just don't want to watch her.

 

To the first sentence, seriously!  Owners can come and go as they please, they don't punch time clocks.

 

To the second, she's 15, and just about all 15 year old girls have moments of "know it all-ness" and certainly snap at their mothers.  It's part of growing up, and normal.

I do think that P&E are going to start getting some power back pretty soon, though. They may feel guilty but if Paige is going to push them by loudly talking about things where Henry can hear they're going to put their foot down.

 

 

Put their foot down?  Paige DOES have all the power now!  Piss her off and in one (possibly hormone fluctuation fueled) tantrum she can blow their entire operation and put them both in jail.  Yes, Paige is supposed to be SOOOOO mature, but she's still 15.  I think they will bring in Hans to give her a place to vent soon, someone her age to talk to.  A pressure release valve.  I mean seriously, she has no one to talk to except her parents, and she no longer trusts them.

I was thinking this too, but I'm not sure how an American teen would react to 1980's Russia. It would certainly be extreme culture shock and might push her away from the thought of helping the USSR.

The KGB would have to control what she saw and orchestrate her encounters with everyone she met to ensure her reaction would be positive.

Paige's religion is also in stark contrast to Soviet doctrine. I'm sure Paige would never be trusted by the KGB and she would be run and handled just like all the other sources P&E run.

Phillip seems to know that, but Elizabeth seems to think that Paige can be a true Soviet patriot.

What the hell is she thinking?

They have to know that all spies are used like a wedge of lemon, once every drop of juice is squeezed from you, you are tossed away like a dried up rind.

That even includes P&E! They are being squeezed for every drop of their usefulness, even their own children.

Gabriel really does need to bend to one of Phillips demands soon.

 

Yes, to all of that.  I do hope some of this is showing the scales of love for the USSR are dropping from Elizabeth's eyes now that it's her DAUGHTER that will be used in any way they need.  I'm not sure of that though, although their were indications this episode.  As far as going to Russia?  I think they could easily explain the need for secrecy, put her mom up in a nice hotel or the best hospital available, and keep the visit brief, no sight-seeing.  I kind of doubt it though.

That's how I read it.  It was a nice moment for them, a tiny bit of normal and connection. 

 

Hadn't thought about the Kenya trip, Boundary, but it would make a very nice bit of drama.  I mean Elizabeth is in the travel business but never goes anywhere, why not Africa?  Just speculating here but I wonder if Elizabeth's mom is actually dead and has been for a while.  Make for an awkward meeting in Kenya with, I'm gonna guess, Gabriel.   

 

What year are we up to here?  Must be getting near Korean Air flight 007 by now.  Be a hell of a crimp in the 'Soviet Union A-Ok' campaign.  I happened to be in Germany right before that happened, having just declined a chance to visit moscow (had the money, didn't have the time to make all the arrangements).  It ratcheted up the tension a bit.  

I've been thinking about KAL007 for a while now. 

 

It's funny, maybe because spies, real life and fictional, are a hobby of mine so I've read quite a bit about them, I ALWAYS suspect that shot down or disappeared flights have something to do with Intelligence -- from one country of another.  It's not as if I think they ALL are, but every single time, I wonder, "What was on that plane that our country or another country couldn't allow to reach it's destination?"

[sistermagpie]

You've got me.  The whole "plan" seems extremely whack to me.  Why on earth would anyone in the KGB or FBI want Nina back?  Her cover is blown, she's no longer valuable in any way.

 

 

It seems like a better plan to get Oleg deported to the USSR than get Nina back.

 

Put their foot down?  Paige DOES have all the power now!  Piss her off and in one (possibly hormone fluctuation fueled) tantrum she can blow their entire operation and put them both in jail.  Yes, Paige is supposed to be SOOOOO mature, but she's still 15.  I think they will bring in Hans to give her a place to vent soon, someone her age to talk to.  A pressure release valve.  I mean seriously, she has no one to talk to except her parents, and she no longer trusts them.

 

 

But they don't have to walk around cringing around her. That's what I think will change. They're still her parents and she doesn't actually want them to stop being that. There's plenty of situations where the teenager should technically be the one with the power but are relieved to keep their parents as parents. It's not, after all, like Paige is being as snotty to them as plenty of teenagers are naturally. Think of Sally and Betty Draper! If they want to avoid a hormone-fueled confession the better course is to put the fear of God into her about what happens if she does.

 

I don't see why they'd bring her to Hans. He's not her age, and he's been with them at a necklacing and recently shot a guy in the eye to prove his loyalty to her mom, with whom he hopes to sleep with one day.

 

Did anyone watch the previews for next week? They go through them so quickly that it is sometimes difficult to pick up. I THOUGHT that I saw Paige's hands bound. I'm not talking about American law enforcement. Does anyone know if I am correct or not?

 

 

I think those could be anyone's hands and we just hear Elizabeth talking to Paige over it.

[Umbelina]

But they don't have to walk around cringing around her.

 

Threatening her could easily push her into (again, she's 15 (!) not a great impulse-control age,) saying "fuck it" and turning their lying, atheist, traitor asses in.  Or at least talking it over with her spiritual adviser. 

 

No, she has them by the balls.  That's the main reason I am forcing myself to go along with this ridiculous story simply because I love this show.  The premise is so ridiculous, and Gabe's apparently hands off, "let us hope for the best" attitude is even more ridiculous.  At least early on Philip seemed to understand that the moment Paige becomes a threat to the KGB, they WILL take her out, one way or another.  Maybe not death, but certainly at least faking that while keeping her in the Soviet Union.  After all, they would still have Henry as a bargaining chip, as well as Paige, if they kidnap her, to keep Philip and Elizabeth in line.

 

Anyway, back to pretending I buy any of this story, so I can enjoy the show.

Edited April 9, 2015 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

Threatening her could easily push her into (again, she's 15 (!) not a great impulse-control age,) saying "fuck it" and turning their lying, atheist, traitor asses in.  Or at least talking it over with her spiritual adviser.

 

 

They don't have to threaten her. The threat is there. They just have to call her attention to it. Letting her walk all over them shows her that this really is just about her being angry, and that's dangerous. She's in danger too. It's not like telling on them would just a way to hurt them. She'd blow up her life. I can actually totally accept a situation where they eventually have basic authority over her that just incorporates the new respect. A Paige who thinks about talking it over with her spiritual advisor, to me, isn't primarily in trouble because she's angry at her parents but because she's clueless about danger.

[John S]

IF Paige is the reason why Elizabeth can see her mother, then it puts Paige in the position of being the mother to her mother. Elizabeth would owe Paige for the rest of E's life.

Suppose that Paige wants a brand spanking new car when she turns 16, how could Elizabeth say no?

[PinkRibbons]

As I recall, the only time they used Stan for information it was right after President Reagan got shot, and they signaled the Centre that an "FBI Source" had assured them the Soviets would not be blamed. I think he and Philip are friends because in a weird way they're colleagues. Neither of them are particularly forthcoming so they won't expect long angsty conversations from each other, so it's easier to just have fun together.

 

Umbelina, I see your point about Paige, but I really wish you'd stop tarring every 15-year-old-girl that ever lived with the same brush. The term "teenage girl" is way to broad to uses as anything but a false stereotype. They may often have similarities, but they are not all alike. It is possible for many to keep secrets, rule over their hormones, see situations clearly and react correctly, etc.

[scowl]

I posted on another thread last week that Elizabeth and Paige could go to a Soviet satellite country like Hungary or Czechoslovakia to meet Nadezhda's mother. I suspect the most likely meet-up point could be East Germany-it could be finagled (perhaps by Claudia?) and would be the most suitable way to keep the US authorities from becoming suspicious.

 

The rare times the KGB needed to get an agent to the Soviet Union temporarily, they would first send them to a typical vacation destination with a Soviet embassy like Mexico City. There, they would then give them false papers for the rest of the trip so their true destination wouldn't be found. Soviet agents would even use their credit cards to buy meals and touristy trinkets to give them a paper trail to take back to the U.S. 

[whiporee]

 

Must be getting near Korean Air flight 007 by now.  Be a hell of a crimp in the 'Soviet Union A-Ok' campaign.

 

Wikipedia says the season finale is titled March 8, 1983, so I don't think we're going to get that far (KAL 007 was Sept 1, 1983. Next season for sure, though. 

 

March 8, 1983, was the date Reagan gave his "Evil Empire" speech. Read into that what you will, but I'm guessing it's enough to send peacenik Paige to the other side.  

[Umbelina]

They don't have to threaten her. The threat is there. They just have to call her attention to it. Letting her walk all over them shows her that this really is just about her being angry, and that's dangerous. She's in danger too. It's not like telling on them would just a way to hurt them. She'd blow up her life. I can actually totally accept a situation where they eventually have basic authority over her that just incorporates the new respect. A Paige who thinks about talking it over with her spiritual advisor, to me, isn't primarily in trouble because she's angry at her parents but because she's clueless about danger.

We will have to agree to disagree on this one.  ;~)

 

Paige isn't all that fond of her life as it is.  Her parents are liars, atheists, and working against the United States.  The "Evil Empire" speech is coming up.  Again, she is 15, one of the most emotional times in our lives, simply biologically.  The minister and his wife are childless, and I could easily see Paige thinking about them adopting her and Henry, if mom and dad go to jail.

 

This is not the time to piss Paige off, or pull any power moves, let alone expect or try to push her into respect or trust.  I'd expect Paige to start reading, gathering her own information, as she did with "the drug dealer."  Read some spy novels, become more educated about the US/Soviet Union relationship, and start realistically calculating what she should do, and the possible outcomes. 

[Blakeston]

Can someone explain to me why Stan and Oleg think their superiors would be willing to trade Milky Way lover for Nina?  I mean if Stan exposes her and makes the arrest.  Why would he expect Gaad or whomever to want to give up a newly acquired spy for Nina?  Wouldn't they view Nina as someone who's outlived her usefulness?

There are times when world powers will release captured enemies in exchange for securing someone's release, even if that someone isn't all that useful to them. The US just freed five members of the Taliban in exchange for getting Bowe Bergdahl back, and presumably it wasn't because Bergdahl has anything to offer us - it was just to save him from the enemy.

Of course, Bergdahl is a US citizen, unlike Nina. But world powers have made sacrifices for non-citizens who got caught spying for them. For example, the Soviet Union released Gerald Brooke in exchange for Peter and Helen Kogen, even though the Kogens weren't Soviets.

To the second, she's 15, and just about all 15 year old girls have moments of "know it all-ness" and certainly snap at their mothers. It's part of growing up, and normal.

My issue is more about her smugly using religion to troll her parents.

[sistermagpie]

As I recall, the only time they used Stan for information it was right after President Reagan got shot, and they signaled the Centre that an "FBI Source" had assured them the Soviets would not be blamed. I think he and Philip are friends because in a weird way they're colleagues. Neither of them are particularly forthcoming so they won't expect long angsty conversations from each other, so it's easier to just have fun together.

 

 

Yeah, that's the only time I remember him giving them info too, and it wasn't classified. He knew it was going to hit the news right away. Philip's really never used him as a source. I think his "I'm working him" was a cover for wanting to be his friend.

 

I agree they are colleagues--I think of them as Ralph and Sam, the wolf and sheepdog from the old Warner Brothers cartoon. Only Stan doesn't know it.

 

IF Paige is the reason why Elizabeth can see her mother, then it puts Paige in the position of being the mother to her mother. Elizabeth would owe Paige for the rest of E's life.

 

 

Or it makes Paige start to see herself as part of this family for real and care about them. The thing about Paige asking for cars is it's exactly the opposite of the girl she is. She's been motivated by a lot of things in the series and while she's been known to ask for leg warmers and things two of her big motivations are wanting to be close to her parents and wanting to be a good person making the world a better place. 

 

My issue is more about her smugly using religion to troll her parents.

 

 

To be fair, Pastor Tim does that all the time. He seems to find it even more amusing than she does.

[PinkRibbons]

I think there's just the one explanation of why Nina is being given so many chances: Oleg. To say his father is powerful is an enormous understatement. Arkady (and Philip and Elizabeth, for that matter) is also very politically powerful -- he'd have to be, to get the position he's occupying -- which is why he of all people could stand up to Papa Burov. But other people in the system? The Soviet Union's government was so massively corrupt that I think if he wanted, Oleg's father could have gotten Nina released before she even went to trial. But he (and his children) do seem to have some sense of honor and a rare actual loyalty to the Soviets, and so he's giving Nina these chances to prove herself.

 

Oleg is a good man, but he's a spoiled kid. He's clearly very passionate about Nina and obviously is adored by his father. I don't think Papa Burov would want to deny him anything he cared so much about.

[Umbelina]

Pink Ribbons, I know that all 15 year olds aren't alike.  Male or female though, it's a time of massive hormonal change, and also the time where we begin to separate from our parents to find our own identities, just one of the many steps that prepares us to eventually leave the nest.  We do begin to find our own truths instead of just accepting parental truths as well. 

 

Regardless of intelligence or maturity, those years are times of change, and chaos is often part of change.  I can't separate her age from this story, because to me, it's the biggest part of the story. 

 

Change of subject though!

 

I really, really loved Maurice calling out Elizabeth.  She's not quite as slick as she thinks she is, and it's about damn time someone besides Paige saw through her act.  I hope this doesn't just mean he's a dead man. 

Edited April 9, 2015 by Umbelina

[henripootel]

For example, the Soviet Union released Gerald Brooke in exchange for Peter and Helen Kogen, even though the Kogens weren't Soviets.

I think you mean the 'Krogers'.  They, however, were died-in-the-wool Soviet agents with long service, and they'd been put on public trial and sent to jail.  Not good advertising for Soviet intelligence if they deny their assets and let them rot in the can.  Nina wasn't like this - she was an agent of compromise and like as not, the FBI already knows pretty much everything Nina has to tell.  Not an asset worth trading for IMO, and she might well be a double for all the FBI knows.

 

My issue is more about her smugly using religion to troll her parents.

Hey, she's 15 - at that age I was using my lack of religion to troll mine.  For recruitment purposes, I'd figure a smug troller would rank far higher than a true fanatic, who always seem to be fueled by a secret doubt.  Which, in my experience, sometimes leads to a collapse of belief and 180 degree turn.  The Centre doesn't need fanatics, it needs smart, level-headed professionals. 

Edited April 9, 2015 by henripootel

[John S]

Sistermagpie - Even if Paige starts seeing herself as part of the family, IF she is the reason why Elizabeth can see her mother, Elizabeth would owe her everything. Doing this WOULD get her closer to her parents and would definitely put Paige in the power position over her parents.

I don't know if Elizabeth would need Paige to be able to see her mother but MAYBE her true blue Americanism would come in handy.

There MIGHT be some kind of price that Paige would have to pay in the future.

[soapfaninnc]

 

Umbelina, I see your point about Paige, but I really wish you'd stop tarring every 15-year-old-girl that ever lived with the same brush. The term "teenage girl" is way to broad to uses as anything but a false stereotype. They may often have similarities, but they are not all alike. It is possible for many to keep secrets, rule over their hormones, see situations clearly and react correctly, etc.

Of course they aren't. I was like Paige but many that were teens at my age were not. 

 

But this behavior is perfectly in character from what I've seen of Paige to this point. She's impulsive - she hitched a ride with a prev and if Henry hadn't been so smart something bad could have happened. She's idealistic and her parents have just shattered her illusions about her life as she knew it.  

 

I agree with Umbelina that I don't see Paige begin able to control herself over this information or to see things clearly. And I'm speaking just about Paige - not every teenage girl. This is just how I've seen her character to date. She's acting just as I thought she would. The shock is over and now she is PISSED. She can't tell anyone so she's going to make sure her parents know just how pissed she is. Phillip is letting her vent, within reason. Elizabeth is trying but is so caught off guard that Paige didn't give her a standing ovation upon hearing the news that she's a Russian, she doesn't know how to react to her. Elizabeth and Phillip are on defense right now. They didn't really have a choice but to tell Paige. They know how Jared reacted when pushed. 

[sistermagpie]

I agree with Umbelina that I don't see Paige begin able to control herself over this information or to see things clearly. And I'm speaking just about Paige - not every teenage girl. This is just how I've seen her character to date. She's acting just as I thought she would. The shock is over and now she is PISSED. She can't tell anyone so she's going to make sure her parents know just how pissed she is. Phillip is letting her vent, within reason.

Elizabeth is trying but is so caught off guard that Paige didn't give her a standing ovation upon hearing the news that she's a Russian, she doesn't know how to react to her.

 

 

*snicker* It's funny because it's true.

 

Answering more in the Paige thread...

[magdalene]

I still cannot believe they put their lives into the hands of a 15 year old American teenager. The next time Paige has a "my life is so hard and I hate my parents moment" their whole cover may be blown sky high. And I am okay with that as I really have developed such an intense dislike for Elizabeth this season.

[ToastnBacon]

Wikipedia says the season finale is titled March 8, 1983, so I don't think we're going to get that far (KAL 007 was Sept 1, 1983. Next season for sure, though.

March 8, 1983, was the date Reagan gave his "Evil Empire" speech. Read into that what you will, but I'm guessing it's enough to send peacenik Paige to the other side.

I don't see Reagan's speech as pushing Paige to the other side; it just might drive a deeper wedge between her and P&E.

The Evil Empire speech was given to the National Association of Evangelicals in Orlando, Florida.

I was just a kid, but I'm pretty sure it was well received by the Christian Right at the time.

So, if Paige and Elizabeth go on a church trip to Florida...

Expect some fireworks between those two.

Edited April 9, 2015 by ToastnBacon

[Umbelina]

I still cannot believe they put their lives into the hands of a 15 year old American teenager. The next time Paige has a "my life is so hard and I hate my parents moment" their whole cover may be blown sky high.

Tell me about it!

 

Out of love for the show, I am just forcing myself to ignore how stupid it is, and trying enjoy the rest of the storyline.  It's a bit like skiing on dirt.  The foundation is whack, but it's not completely impossible to have fun with it, as long as I don't have to accept that dirt is snow, or wax my skis.

Edited April 9, 2015 by Umbelina

[ToastnBacon]

Tell me about it!

 

Out of love for the show, I am just forcing myself to ignore how stupid it is, and trying enjoy the rest of the storyline.  It's a bit like skiing on dirt.  The foundation is whack, but it's not completely impossible to have fun with it, as long as I don't have to accept that dirt is snow, or wax my skis.

The only way that I can enjoy this show is to suspend disbelief and just roll with it.

It is a very fun show, but the goofy disguises and wigs get on my nerves.

[margol29]

Once again, I must be the only one who didn't like the Paige stuff. She's got way too much power now, which is what happens when people try to be their children's friend instead of their parents. WTH? Knocking on P and E's bedroom door before they're even up and demanding to know what they're talking about? How about, "None of your damned business!"? I wish Elizabeth would take her to Russia to visit her mother and leave her there. It would serve the little snot right. The kid's a blabber mouth and can't be trusted.

I liked everything else in the episode, though.

Old Dracula is very menacing.

Does Martha know Clark is KGB specifically or that he's just some sort of a spy in general?

I have to agree with you on the Paige stuff. When she was throwing question after question  at the breakfast table I wanted them to backhand her into next week. If she wanted answers she should of asked one of them to stay home with her from school the day before and answer her questions.

 

The barging into the bedroom and demanding what they are taling about....just insufferable. They need to send Paige to a youth KGB summer and winter camp.

[Umbelina]

The only way that I can enjoy this show is to suspend disbelief and just roll with it.

It is a very fun show, but the goofy disguises and wigs get on my nerves.

The goofy disguises work for me, maybe because of listening to Robert Baer talk about his own goofy disguises during his twenty + years as a cold war spy, or reading that spycraft book I talk about in the real life spies thread.  Very real.  There should be more distinguishing features for others to focus on, such as moles, teeth, thick glasses, maybe a fake tattoo, but still.  "Light cover" really was a thing, and probably still is.

 

My two main "suspend disbelief" issues are:

1. No way would they be handling the break ins and the rest of the hands on stuff, embedded operations officers recruit and point out targets to Arkady (through Gabriel), and Arkady's people would do the dirty work, or most of it, because they have diplomatic immunity.  (See the co-authors notes that take up the back 4th of the book FAIR GAME, for more about this.)  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Game:_My_Life_as_a_Spy,_My_Betrayal_by_the_White_House
2. The entire recruit Paige, the Jesus Freak 15 year old American kid, especially after what JUST HAPPENED the last time they recruited a teenager.  Yeah, let's just leave our fate in one child's hands!

Edited April 9, 2015 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

The barging into the bedroom and demanding what they are taling about....just insufferable. They need to send Paige to a youth KGB summer and winter camp.

 

 

I expected Philip to answer "What are you talking about?" by saying, "Nothing. We literally just woke up and said good-morning. God!"

 

Sometimes they actually are going to be talking about the travel agency, Paige.

 

I remember saying at some point that if Philip really wanted the KGB to back off Paige he ought to have let them meet her. :-)

[shura]

Why SHOULD she believe them?  They have lied to her for her entire life.  They are spies.  One of the most intelligent things Paige is doing is doubting every single word out of their mouths.  As she should.

 

Doubting is fine, and there is no reason she should believe them. But the fact of the matter is, she is asking them for the truth, the truth is what they are giving her, and she is acting as if they are not giving her what she wants. It annoys me, on general principle. Knowing that all this is realistic and Paige has valid reasons to behave this way does not make it any less annoying for me.

[RedheadZombie]

Has Elizabeth ever been shown evidence that her father was a coward/traitor?  I think that would be an exceptional manipulation tactic to recruit zealots.  I found it interesting that Elizabeth didn't share her father's supposed history with Paige.

 

A while back I posted my prediction that Elizabeth--and now maybe Paige--could go to Russia to visit with Elizabeth's dying mother. I love this possibility but can see it's fraught with all sorts of production and other obstacles. But, still I love the idea that in one trip, Elizabeth could give Paige a major family connection and at the same time, what an exposition opportunity to talk about and illustrate the young Elizabeth.

 

If the goal is to use Paige in the future, I would think they would not want a trip to Russia on her record.  I'm not really interested in watching that.  I hate when they try to make Elizabeth sympathetic.

[PinkRibbons]

Just a point of fact -- Paige didn't barge into her parents' room; she knocked and was given verbal permission to come in. I thought from her attitude that she was actually coming in with the hope of having a sort of "truce" conversation, but she couldn't stop herself from asking what they'd been talking about. (She probably heard it through the door.) Not being lied to is a novelty to her, I'm not surprised she asked.

[ToastnBacon]

<p>The goofy disguises work for me, maybe because of listening to Robert Baer talk about his own goofy disguises during his twenty + years as a cold war spy, or reading that spycraft book I talk about in the real life spies thread. Very real. There should be more distinguishing features for others to focus on, such as moles, teeth, thick glasses, maybe a fake tattoo, but still. "Light cover" really was a thing, and probably still is. My two main "suspend disbelief" issues are:

• No way would they be handling the break ins and the rest of the hands on stuff, embedded agents recruit and point out targets to Arkady (through Gabriel), and Arkady's people would do the dirty work, or most of it, because they have diplomatic immunity.
• The entire recruit Paige, the Jesus Freak 15 year old American kid, especially after what JUST HAPPENED the last time they recruited a teenager. Yeah, let's just leave our fate in one child's hands!

A wig would work if you were trying to throw off surveillance and just blend in.

Maybe it works in brief encounters, but P&E are putting on wigs and having sex with people, come on!

That crap would attract too much attention and actually prompt suspicion.

Clark and Martha working their way through the kama sutra and Clark's bobby-pinned on wig never falls off?

It was hillarious, but there is no way I believe that spies slap on a wig and go out and screw their way across the country.

At least they had Martha say something about Clark's hairpiece once.

Edited April 9, 2015 by ToastnBacon

[Umbelina]

Why SHOULD she believe them?  They have lied to her for her entire life.  They are spies.  One of the most intelligent things Paige is doing is doubting every single word out of their mouths.  As she should.

 

Doubting is fine, and there is no reason she should believe them. But the fact of the matter is, she is asking them for the truth, the truth is what they are giving her, and she is acting as if they are not giving her what she wants. It annoys me, on general principle. Knowing that all this is realistic and Paige has valid reasons to behave this way does not make it any less annoying for me.

We know that, but she doesn't know anything for sure right now.

 

If the goal is to use Paige in the future, I would think they would not want a trip to Russia on her record.  I'm not really interested in watching that.  I hate when they try to make Elizabeth sympathetic.

They wouldn't have to have it on record.  At all.  A couple of people have posted about ways she could go to Russia and have absolutely no record of that fact.  Frankly, I'd think visiting Russia might scare her silly, not be anything that would make her want to work against America!  However the whole "scared shitless" thing could work as far as keeping her mouth shut.  Especially if Dracula is involved, and drops not too subtle threats about what could happen to Henry should she act up.

[sistermagpie]

I'm not really interested in watching that.  I hate when they try to make Elizabeth sympathetic.

 

 

LOL! Yes, I admit that even though I like Elizabeth that's how this strikes me too. Elizabeth actually had a pretty good few months. She's loved feeling like she was working up to tell Paige who she really was, and while the news about her mother was very sad, she had support from Gabriel and Philip and got more and more tapes. Paige was becoming more of a little bff. She was excited to tell her truth. The flies in the ointment were Philip not being onboard for the whole family spy idea and then Paige not being as happy to listen to Elizabeth talk about Russia as Elizabeth was to talk about it.

 

So it just kind of makes me roll my eyes that the payoff would be Elizabeth getting to make her dream trip to Russia with Paige (who would have to be sympathetic to be there) in tow. Honestly, if it was really important to Elizabeth emotionally for the Cold War to be over next week I feel like the KGB would find a way to make that happen for their most important agent.

[SlackerInc]

As others have pointed out, they own the place so who's to tell them what hours they should keep?  Besides if their employees can handle most of the day to day stuff then there may be no need for them to be there everyday.  Also, I notice a lot of their ongoing operations take place at night so I wouldn't be surprise if they're regularly going into the office during the day.

 

Right.  They are often shown there, strategizing; and in a recent episode, Paige just dropped in unexpectedly and they were there (same was true when the pastor came by).

 

The rare times the KGB needed to get an agent to the Soviet Union temporarily, they would first send them to a typical vacation destination with a Soviet embassy like Mexico City. There, they would then give them false papers for the rest of the trip so their true destination wouldn't be found. Soviet agents would even use their credit cards to buy meals and touristy trinkets to give them a paper trail to take back to the U.S. 

 

That's interesting.  I remember when I was in the USSR, I hung out with this guy who had been in the military and he told me (being in the era of glasnost, and he and I developed a rapport so I think he felt he could trust me) that when he was in the military, he had been sent to Cuba.  But even though it sounded like he was just a grunt soldier, they still used some cloak and dagger by having them arrive on a cruise ship, wearing Aloha shirts and sipping Mai Tais on the deck as they came in to port.  Only later when they had kind of dispersed into the city did they rendezvous at some out of the way spot to get their uniforms and start acting like soldiers again.

 

I really, really loved Maurice calling out Elizabeth.  She's not quite as slick as she thinks she is, and it's about damn time someone besides Paige saw through her act.  I hope this doesn't just mean he's a dead man. 

 

Yes, that was a cool scene.  I've felt there were too many subplots this season, but at the same time it is hard to name which of them should have been shelved as I do enjoy them all, even ones like this one that are seemingly irrelevant to the central action.

 

The Evil Empire speech was given to the National Association of Evangelicals in Orlando, Florida.

I was just a kid, but I'm pretty sure it was well received by the Christian Right at the time.

So, if Paige and Elizabeth go on a church trip to Florida...

Expect some fireworks between those two.

 

But Paige's church is part of the Christian left, not the right.

[sistermagpie]

But Paige's church is part of the Christian left, not the right.

 

 

Would they still be part of the Evangelical association? I wonder because someone else was saying that as they remembered it Reagan was basically trying to get Evangelicals to back off the no nukes stuff and it worked--after this what had before been something the Evangelical movement in general embraced it became more of a pure lefty thing. I wasn't sure if that meant the left including Evangelical churches or whether it meant that people started to associate no nukes with purely political feelings (on the left) and it stopped really be associated with churches in general.

 

Pastor Tim seems pretty committed to it so he doesn't seem like he'd be eager to agree with Reagan and drop it. But there still might be some interesting shifts in Paige's church over it. He might even change his views in some way--who knows? Or maybe the speech is just in the background or at the end of the ep and it's not really about how it will effect that church or Paige yet.

[Umbelina]

I really, really loved Maurice calling out Elizabeth.  She's not quite as slick as she thinks she is, and it's about damn time someone besides Paige saw through her act.  I hope this doesn't just mean he's a dead man.

 

 

Yes, that was a cool scene.  I've felt there were too many subplots this season, but at the same time it is hard to name which of them should have been shelved as I do enjoy them all, even ones like this one that are seemingly irrelevant to the central action.

 

You know, that is one thing that really works for me.  I always think of the dead agents leaving a huge hole, and that's why Philip protests about how many hoops the KGB has them jumping though.  They are down two very important Operations Officers.  Every time they are asked to do something else I think of the dead couple who would have been sharing that load.

 

(and I will leave out the details of my previous points that they wouldn't be doing the dirty work anyway, and them losing two agents because of a previous recruit a teenager scheme being another reason the recruit Paige doesn't work for me)

Edited April 10, 2015 by Umbelina

[Shriekingeel]

No way would they be handling the break ins and the rest of the hands on stuff, embedded operations officers recruit and point out targets to Arkady (through Gabriel), and Arkady's people would do the dirty work, or most of it, because they have diplomatic immunity.

You're playing my song. Single biggest complaint about the show.

Loved the husband who knew exactly what the deal was with Northrop. The civilians on this show are generally clueless dopes, and it's nice to finally meet one who can put 2+2 together.

[Dev F]

I remain unconvinced by the argument that Paige is necessarily in danger of exposing her parents at any moment, so they were fools to ever trust her with the truth. I mean, obviously, the Jared situation is hanging over everything precisely so we wonder whether something catastrophic might happen, but I don't find it nearly as inevitable as some folks seem to -- nor would I find it improbable if Paige chose to hold her peace.

 

Whether you're willing to turn in your own family is a deep and serious moral consideration, not the sort of thing that's going to turn on a dime if a teenager is feeling especially peeved or hormonal or whatever. Worrying that Paige might expose her parents in a fit of pique seems like worrying that she might start stabbing everyone at church one Sunday because she doesn't like Pastor Tim's homily.

 

And I say that as someone who would turn in his family for high crimes, without a second thought. That's just how I was raised -- to be extremely morally parsimonious. It was drilled into me from a young age that good is good and bad is bad, and personal relationships don't change that. If I betrayed my country or murdered someone, I would expect my parents to turn me in and think less of them if they didn't, just as they would expect me to turn them in if they committed some heinous deed.

 

But I have friends who were raised differently, who find that sort of moral code absolutely baffling. "You'd turn in your own mother?" I have one friend who says he would prioritize family over institutional loyalty even given the most absurdly lopsided hypothetical I could think of. ("What if you found out that your sister planned to betray the defense of Baghdad to the Islamic State?") So it's not hard for me to imagine that Paige might be the kind of person who would have a fundamental moral block against giving up her parents' secret. Especially since her parents would've had a vested interest in her feeling more loyal to them than to Western society.

Edited April 10, 2015 by Dev F

[DrSpaceman]

I don't know if it was coincidence or the make up artists were told to do it on purpose , but it struck me how much Paige looks a while lot like Elizabeth this episode.

Now I don't know what to think of Martha....this episode she certainly didn't seem to have any inside scheme going on she was not telling Phillip about, which is what I thought was happening last episode. She certainly got off far too easy in that interview though. Has to be more than that, especially when she was explicitly asked about her relationships right up front, and lied. Maybe he knew she was lying and is now figuring out what to do next.

[ruby24]

I can buy that Paige might keep their secret, but not that they can train her to suddenly develop loyalties to the Soviet Union and go to work for them as a "second generation illegal." I think that plan's going to go down in flames.

 

Do you guys see that happening? It seems to me with the episode title of the finale, which is in just two weeks, and Paige's attitude towards this whole thing being one of hostility so far, I see her wanting nothing to do with this, not being recruited to join up. And with Philip losing faith more and more every week, I still believe there's going to be shift coming that sets things against Elizabeth in the end somehow.

[sistermagpie]

(and I will leave out the details of my previous points that they wouldn't be doing the dirty work anyway, and them losing two agents because of a previous recruit a teenager scheme being another reason the recruit Paige doesn't work for me)

 

LOL! Now I'm picturing a wall of Arch Villains on the walls of the KGB of all the people who brought down their top agents:

 

Jared - His dad wouldn't let him be a spy!

 

Paige - Pastor Tim was the only one who understood!

 

Brittany - I hate you, Mom!

Cody - How could you embarrass me this way?

 

You're playing my song. Single biggest complaint about the show.

 

 

But for that show you can just watch a family drama and imagine they're secretly spies because they're not doing anything.

 

 

So it's not hard for me to imagine that Paige might be the kind of person who would have a fundamental moral block against giving up her parents' secret. Especially since her parents would've had a vested interest in her feeling more loyal to them than to Western society.

 

 

Yeah, Paige hasn't even approached the idea that the USSR is wrong. She had already started questioning, hesitantly, the lines between legal and right. What her parents think they're doing actually isn't so different from what she thinks she's doing. So it's not even a straight up question of being a criminal for money - or even treason.

 

And with Philip losing faith more and more every week, I still believe there's going to be shift coming that sets things against Elizabeth in the end somehow.

 

 

I don't know--like I said earlier it seems like ultimately everything comes around to Elizabeth's feelings being important. She might change her own mind about this being right for Paige--or at least respect Paige's choice with Philip's help.

Edited April 10, 2015 by sistermagpie

[ToastnBacon]

Would they still be part of the Evangelical association? I wonder because someone else was saying that as they remembered it Reagan was basically trying to get Evangelicals to back off the no nukes stuff and it worked--after this what had before been something the Evangelical movement in general embraced it became more of a pure lefty thing. I wasn't sure if that meant the left including Evangelical churches or whether it meant that people started to associate no nukes with purely political feelings (on the left) and it stopped really be associated with churches in general.

 

Pastor Tim seems pretty committed to it so he doesn't seem like he'd be eager to agree with Reagan and drop it. But there still might be some interesting shifts in Paige's church over it. He might even change his views in some way--who knows? Or maybe the speech is just in the background or at the end of the ep and it's not really about how it will effect that church or Paige yet.

I just went and read Reagan's speech and the first part of it is Reagan supporting prayer in schools, and rolling back government funding of family planning.

He didn't get to the Evil Empire part until the end of the speech, and it was very powerful stuff that surely would have resonated with a religious audience.

Reagan was a very gifted speaker and I'm sure he was capable of giving a "no nuke" congregation a pause to rethink their position.

[Umbelina]

I can buy that Paige might keep their secret, but not that they can train her to suddenly develop loyalties to the Soviet Union and go to work for them as a "second generation illegal." I think that plan's going to go down in flames.

 

Do you guys see that happening? It seems to me with the episode title of the finale, which is in just two weeks, and Paige's attitude towards this whole thing being one of hostility so far, I see her wanting nothing to do with this, not being recruited to join up. And with Philip losing faith more and more every week, I still believe there's going to be shift coming that sets things against Elizabeth in the end somehow.

For me, that would be not only asking me to ski on dirt, but also to do handsprings over boulders at the same time.  However, if the KGB threatened Henry?  Maybe.

 

Following spoiler is just stuff I've picked up in certain interviews, but read at your own risk. 

In interviews with the actress who plays Paige, it certainly SEEMS like she expects to get involved with spy stuff, including "cool" guns and disguises. It's possible she's only projecting and doesn't really know anything though.

Yeah, Paige hasn't even approached the idea that the USSR is wrong. She had already started questioning, hesitantly, the lines between legal and right. What her parents think they're doing actually isn't so different from what she thinks she's doing. So it's not even a straight up question of being a criminal for money - or even treason.

Only it IS.  The USA wasn't the only country with nukes, or causing wars.  The USSR was as well.

[ruby24]

Unless the Evil Empire speech is a catalyst for Paige to go the other way, turn on the U.S. instead.

 

I would find that much harder to buy though. I don't believe you could turn a full-blooded American teenager into a lover of the Soviet Union.

 

But maybe some of you guys are right, and Elizabeth will take Paige to Russia, and that's what kickstarts her new devotion to a foreign country.

[sistermagpie]

Only it IS.  The USA wasn't the only country with nukes, or causing wars.  The USSR was as well.

 

 

I meant they're all trying to make the world better and more just and work for peace. That's what Elizabeth and Philip state as what they're doing and so does Paige.

 

But maybe some of you guys are right, and Elizabeth will take Paige to Russia, and that's what kickstarts her new devotion to a foreign country.

 

 

I would have a hard time buying that a trip to the USSR would make Paige devoted to the place over her own country. I can see her being interested in Russia but that's a far cry from identifying as Russian. She'd just look at rhetoric like Reagan's differently - and not that differently than plenty of other loyal Americans, imo.

Edited April 10, 2015 by sistermagpie

[ruby24]

Reading the episode description for the finale, I think you guys are probably right about this Russia trip. Which I guess means they are planning to go the way of recruiting Paige, but I don't know why I find that development so completely insane. It makes more sense to me that she'd want nothing to do with any of it.

[sistermagpie]

Reading the episode description for the finale, I think you guys are probably right about this Russia trip. Which I guess means they are planning to go the way of recruiting Paige, but I don't know why I find that development so completely insane. It makes more sense to me that she'd want nothing to do with any of it.

 

 

I don't actually think that means recruitment. I think it's just Paige going with Elizabeth to see her mother - perhaps with Philip claiming that this will help with her recruitment, but really it's about Elizabeth giving Paige some actual truth and Paige feeling some forgiveness and feeling like she finally has more family than her parents. I don't think it's a recruitment thing really, just a family healing thing (which of course comes down to Paige and Elizabeth blah blah blah).

[ruby24]

Well, I just think there would be no possible way for Paige to develop loyalty to the Soviet Union of all places against her own country, the place she grew up in and knows, unless maybe taking her there would be a way to instill some connection to it inside her. So I'm assuming that's what this trip might do, but then again, Russia was a pretty bad place at the time, so maybe it would end up backfiring.

[Umbelina]

You know, I had friends who visited Russia during the eighties, actually the professor parents of my friend did.  I was helping them with their quick Russian language tapes. 

 

They got to see the very best of the available hotels, the museums, and they were educated, intelligent people who were pretty open minded, and wanted to love it.  When they returned, although they accentuated the positive things, they, when pressed, talked about the oppressive FEEL, the lack of food available even though it was on the menus, it really came down to the menus being for show, and the reality was that only a very few options were actually available to eat.  No matter where they went that was true (Moscow and Leningrad, and some kind of countryside tour where they were not allowed to get out of busses.)  Once on a tour in one of the cities they were stopped and the mother tried to speak to a Russian who stopped near the group.  One of the guides swooped in an hustled them away, and she said she always remembered the look of fear on the ordinary Russian she happened to speak to.  All in all, it was a very cold and intimidating place, and although promised, they were never allowed to speak to any "ordinary" Russians.  The lack of freedom was shocking when experienced first hand.  Even photo taking was strictly monitored.