Lifetime's VC Andrews Movies Topic (Flowers In The Attic, The Dollangangers, The Casteels, etc) - General Discussion

[Kiki777]

Another thing. I forgot to comment on was Foxworth Hall itself - I feel like this movie is the one that finally got it right, and it was more like how I pictured it when reading the books so long ago - not just a large house, but massive - like the Biltmore.

[Scarlett45]

6 hours ago, toodywoody said:

Oh man, this episode was great. I can't wait for next week. 

So what did Malcolm do with Rock? Did he just chase him off or hurt him? Did he know that he was the guy that got her pregnant?

I don’t think Malcolm hurt Rock- too much of a scandal if he did, I think he just scared him off/threatened him. 

6 hours ago, nokat said:

I'm not sure from this show how she went so crazy. It has been hinted at about Malcolm abusing her. Olivia has gone bonkers by this time. Being constantly gas lighted and thinking you have to save the family name. 

This show made me have some empathy for Olivia, but she made some horrific decisions.  

I have sympathy for Olivia here too. A lot. She makes mistakes, but does try to fix them (like getting Joel out of that awful place). 

[nokat]

1 hour ago, Scarlett45 said:

I have sympathy for Olivia here too. A lot. She makes mistakes, but does try to fix them (like getting Joel out of that awful place). 

This is where I love her.  She's so strong at times.

[Dr.OO7]

How is it? I haven't bothered to watch.

[CountryGirl]

9 minutes ago, Dr.OO7 said:

How is it? I haven't bothered to watch.

Well, what are you waiting for? 😉

The latest episode was the best one yet!

[nokat]

People have commented on the actress's height playing Olivia. When Malcolm grabs her face and towers over her, you get her intimidation and fear. I get scared just watching.

[Kiss my mutt]

It’s hard to go back and watch older versions from this series without feeling like it’s campy now. This is so well done and outshines all the others. The chemistry between Christopher and Corrine was sizzling.  I would totally be on board if the same writers and cast did FITA next or a part 2 of this series because I can’t imagine how they’re going to tie this up in one more episode.  

[Moxie Cat]

Christopher: wow! Did anyone else think he looks like Christopher Reeve? I was so distracted by the resemblance! Same chin and smile. 

I loved that we finally got to see the growth of Christopher and Corinne's relationship...that was a real missing piece from the book series, since it was all from Olivia's perspective. 

Kate Mulgrew had a ball camping it up in her scenes in this episode!

[MCMLXXVII]

1 hour ago, Moxie Cat said:

Christopher: wow! Did anyone else think he looks like Christopher Reeve? I was so distracted by the resemblance! Same chin and smile. 

Yes! Callum Kerr as Christopher is cartoonishly handsome like a blonde Superman or romance novel cover boy.😂 I’m surprised every woman in town wasn’t beating down his door. IMDB lists him as 5’11 and Max Irons as 6’2”, but I figured both for over 6’ onscreen. 

Edited July 26, 2022 by MCMLXXVII

[Kiki777]

3 hours ago, MCMLXXVII said:

Yes! Callum Kerr as Christopher is cartoonishly handsome like a blonde Superman or romance novel cover boy.😂 I’m surprised every woman in town wasn’t beating down his door. IMDB lists him as 5’11 and Max Irons as 6’2”, but I figured both for over 6’ onscreen. 

Yes! And the actress playing Corinne is so beautiful and they had such amazing chemistry that I was rooting for them and forgetting they were SIBLINGS 😂 

No joke I just rewatched all 3 episodes after work today.  I can’t get over how well-done it is and I’m actually sad it’s coming to an end soon.

[Daisy]

7 hours ago, Moxie Cat said:

Christopher: wow! Did anyone else think he looks like Christopher Reeve? I was so distracted by the resemblance! Same chin and smile. 

i was thinking a stockier Captain America. (Chris Evans)

i actually forgot (eep). but i got to watch tonight. Holy sugar on a shingle was this good. 

I need these writers to do everything now
FITA, Heaven, [Dawn], Ruby, get to it. 

[Scarlett45]

12 hours ago, Daisy said:

i was thinking a stockier Captain America. (Chris Evans)

i actually forgot (eep). but i got to watch tonight. Holy sugar on a shingle was this good. 

I need these writers to do everything now
FITA, Heaven, [Dawn], Ruby, get to it. 

These writers are AMAZING. I love what they have been doing. They have used this opportunity to really flesh out the characters and give real motivations to the actions.

What do we want to see for Saturday? I want more Nella- I want her to get some type of revenge on Malcolm. I want evil John Amos to start warping Olivia's mind. I want more of Corinne and Christopher falling in love and making the decision to leave everything behind to be together. 

[Daisy]

in a way - i think this episode sort of showed that Olivia was already being warped - and how Amos is going to do it too. 1/2 this episode, Olivia lost her voice because she felt that Malcolm was right in his twisted way but it took seeing Joel to snap her back to it. Seeing Corrine and Christopher (I love that's  how it ended this episode because all the tea will be spilt from the get go now). will probably just have her lose her voice again - but towards Amos's twisted religious control. that's a nice set up i think. 

I will have to say  - Corrine and Christopher were dumb bunnies. you are having full on sexy times in the swan bedroom, you can't even kiss to make sure you can't be heard - hello. I will give them the benefit of the doubt because they didn't think anyone would be milling around but - again. they were loud. 

[CountryGirl]

6 minutes ago, Daisy said:

in a way - i think this episode sort of showed that Olivia was already being warped - and how Amos is going to do it too. 1/2 this episode, Olivia lost her voice because she felt that Malcolm was right in his twisted way but it took seeing Joel to snap her back to it. Seeing Corrine and Christopher (I love that's  how it ended this episode because all the tea will be spilt from the get go now). will probably just have her lose her voice again - but towards Amos's twisted religious control. that's a nice set up i think. 

I will have to say  - Corrine and Christopher were dumb bunnies. you are having full on sexy times in the swan bedroom, you can't even kiss to make sure you can't be heard - hello. I will give them the benefit of the doubt because they didn't think anyone would be milling around but - again. they were loud. 

IIRC, they were just that dumb in the book, too.

[Daisy]

11 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

IIRC, they were just that dumb in the book, too.

they totally were. I mean. like if y'all want to have sex, go have sex where NO ONE CAN SEE YOU lol

[Moxie Cat]

1 hour ago, CountryGirl said:

IIRC, they were just that dumb in the book, too.

Toward the end of this episode, I was like "Is it going to be in the swan bed?!?!" - and sure enough, it was! You'd think Christopher, at least, wouldn't be that dumb.

[Scarlett45]

2 hours ago, Daisy said:

in a way - i think this episode sort of showed that Olivia was already being warped - and how Amos is going to do it too. 1/2 this episode, Olivia lost her voice because she felt that Malcolm was right in his twisted way but it took seeing Joel to snap her back to it. Seeing Corrine and Christopher (I love that's  how it ended this episode because all the tea will be spilt from the get go now). will probably just have her lose her voice again - but towards Amos's twisted religious control. that's a nice set up i think. 

I think so too. Olivia got her voice back out of a desire to protect her child (Joel). That visceral, primal “mama bear”.

Once she realizes she cannot stop Corinne from “sinning” (Corinne isn’t her child biologically but she is emotionally), John Amos will be there right for the manipulation. 

[Kiki777]

What I expect to see - Malcolm’s stroke and/or eventual death will not be from natural causes.  

Unlikely but fun possible twist - Corinne cheats on Christopher during their marriage, so Chris and Cathy are not full siblings.

[nokat]

16 hours ago, Daisy said:

Holy sugar on a shingle was this good. 

I am borrowing this. I won't have to use the other s word.

[nokat]

1 hour ago, Kiki777 said:

What I expect to see - Malcolm’s stroke and/or eventual death will not be from natural causes.  

Unlikely but fun possible twist - Corinne cheats on Christopher during their marriage, so Chris and Cathy are not full siblings.

I can't say how disappointed I was when Corinne poisoned Malcolm and Olivia's face and then he didn't die. Well done show, well done. There is already lots of incest happening.It probably represents what happened with rich families. Keep it in the family.

[StaceyNotStacie]

I wonder how far into the future they will go with this and who it will follow. Will we go all the way until Olivia dies in the fire or will it stop where the movie picked up or once Malcom dies. Will we see both Olivia’s life and C&C’s lives up to the point where Chris Sr dies in the car crash?

[nokat]

1 minute ago, StaceyNotStacie said:

I wonder how far into the future they will go with this and who it will follow. Will we go all the way until Olivia dies in the fire or will it stop where the movie picked up or once Malcom dies. Will we see both Olivia’s life and C&C’s lives up to the point where Chris Sr dies in the car crash?

This is well done enough I could watch several shows.

[StaceyNotStacie]

12 minutes ago, nokat said:

This is well done enough I could watch several shows.

I agree. I just hope it doesn’t feel rushed because they want too much stuff included. 

[CountryGirl]

1 hour ago, StaceyNotStacie said:

I wonder how far into the future they will go with this and who it will follow. Will we go all the way until Olivia dies in the fire or will it stop where the movie picked up or once Malcom dies. Will we see both Olivia’s life and C&C’s lives up to the point where Chris Sr dies in the car crash?

Per the preview, we see Corinne leading the children to FH but it’s not known what else will be shown. 

[nokat]

8 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

I think so too. Olivia got her voice back out of a desire to protect her child (Joel). That visceral, primal “mama bear”.

Once she realizes she cannot stop Corinne from “sinning” (Corinne isn’t her child biologically but she is emotionally), John Amos will be there right for the manipulation. 

Corinne is the girl Malcolm always wanted. Oliva  knew what would happen.

[andromeda331]

I can't believe what an amazing job they've done with this series. I really wish these writers, set designers and everyone had done all of the previous VC Andrews movies. Everything about the first three parts has been mostly spot on or improved upon.

Oh, Joel, what were you doing kissing Harry at the piano with the door open? Malcolm did what you'd expect from Malcolm. Poor Harry, that was horrible. Not a single one trying to help him. Joel could have said what others pointed out already. It was thank you his car. But I guess it makes sense. He was still too scared of Malcolm and thinking that his mother would do something. I wish Olivia had done something. It bugged me that she went along with Malcolm on everything as a reaction to what happened to Mal. It was such a shock to her and she blamed herself partly for it. I'm glad she finally snapped out of it. I love her firing back to Malcolm that everything that went wrong was his fault. Yes, it was. I do like Olivia telling Harry and his family that it was Joel who got him released not Olivia. Only Malcolm would approve of shock treatment and everything else for his own son. I'm so glad Joel and Harry got away. If Part IV decides to undo that I'm refusing to believe it. Joel and Harry remained together happily living out the rest of their lives. I love Joel's responses when Malcolm found out he was leaving. He wasn't getting any money. Joel didn't care. Written out of the will? Joel didn't care. He'd never be allowed to come back? I wish Joel cheered about that. 

Mrs. Steiner for all she thinks she knows about the Foxworths she thinks blackmailing Olivia or Malcolm is a good idea? She really thought that would end well? She clearly doesn't know either one well. I loved Olivia telling her she knows nothing about love. Book Olivia did love Corrine. It was harder for book Olivia because of how Malcolm treated her compared to his sons. Movie Olivia definitely loves Corrine. I loved Olivia locking her in the library, the fall, and Malcolm coming into finish the job. Of course, Malcolm is turned on by murder and burying a body. I'm surprised he didn't end up having sex with Olivia while they were burying the body. I love Olivia's voiceover about wanting to kill her husband at breakfast and burying a body together at night. Just another normal day at Foxworth Hall.

I like that this Corrine isn't stupid. She was immediately suspicious when Joel disappeared and didn't quit until she found out what happened to him. Then went to Olivia to get her to get him out of there. I like that she knows Malcolm is a horrible person and is creepy with her. Very, very creepy with her at her party. If he hadn't ended up having to bury a body he would have raped Corrine that night. I worried about Roderick for the whole party after Malcolm lead him away to talk and still a little worried we never did see him again. I thought maybe we'd get to see Olivia murdering Mrs. Steiner and Malcolm murdering poor Roderick at the same time. I wouldn't put it past Malcolm. But since they weren't off burying his body along with Mrs. Steiner's maybe Roderick just went home. Corrine did look beautiful in that dress.

I like the way they introduced Corrine and Christopher to each other. That was much better then them meeting at the house and immediately falling for each other. Here at least that got going before they learned they were related. I liked Corrine going to Christopher about Joel and asking about the hospital. They did a good job handling the attraction but stopping there. Christopher stopping after the kiss with Corrine clearly wanting more. Poor Olivia giving Corrine good advice about marriage not knowing it was about Christopher.  I like you could tell she was thinking about her decision years ago to marry Malcolm that she's regretted every day since.    

Poor Nella. I really hope she and her family gets away from the Foxworths.   

Edited July 28, 2022 by andromeda331

[andromeda331]

I think Corrine was lying to Cathy about trying to make the kids a little sick to sneak them out of the house. By that point I think she was just for killing her kids and moving on. She came up with a lot of different excuses to save her marriage to Bart and keep herself out of jail. None of them worked. But that is one thing I love about the books. Your never really sure who to believe. Corrine was unreliable in the first book with her version events that didn't line up in the Garden of Shadows. Was it when Andrew took over and forgot details or Corrine lying. She tried to claim Malcolm was terrible to her but that was a lie. After the first whipping Corrine was able to come and go as she wanted. But Olivia and Cathy were hardly reliable either. I do think Malcolm knew about the four kids. That part he added to his will about if it was ever proven Corrine had kids with her first husband or kids with Bart. That's so something he would do.

[Scarlett45]

8 hours ago, nokat said:

Corinne is the girl Malcolm always wanted. Oliva  knew what would happen.

I don’t quite follow. Olivia knew Corinne would fall in love with Christopher and run off with him?

Edited to add-Or you mean that Olivia knew Malcolm was a total creeper and a rapist? Even if you know a man is a total creeper and a rapist, raping your own child is another level of evil. Olivia did say to Malcolm that she saw how Malcolm was looking at Corinne these days, and it wasn't how a father should look at his daughter. I can see how she would want to get Corinne OUT OF THERE, but not necessarily married to a guy like Rock. 

[Scarlett45]

4 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I think Corrine was lying to Cathy about trying to make the kids a little sick to sneak them out of the house. By that point I think she was just for killing her kids and moving on. She came up with a lot of different excuses to save her marriage to Bart and keep herself out of jail. None of them worked. But that is one thing I love about the books. Your never really sure who to believe. Corrine was unreliable in the first book with her version events that didn't line up in the Garden of Shadows. Was it when Andrew took over and forgot details or Corrine lying. She tried to claim Malcolm was terrible to her but that was a lie. After the first whipping Corrine was able to come and go as she wanted. But Olivia and Cathy were hardly reliable either. I do think Malcolm knew about the four kids. That part he added to his will about if it was ever proven Corrine had kids with her first husband or kids with Bart. That's so something he would do.

Ding ding. (Bolding mine)

Whats REALLY interesting, and works with what we have seen with the Olivia in this series, is that if Corinne got her moral center back and stood up for her kids, she would’ve inherited everything eventually when Olivia died!
 

Olivia left it all to Corinne in the end ANYWAY.

Yes she would’ve had a cash flow problem for a little while, but a guy like Bart (successful if not filthy rich) could’ve kept them afloat. 

[CountryGirl]

I believe Corinne's head was turned by money as well and it was no coincidence that the donuts started coming right after Malcolm died and the will was read. She had been poisoning them for nine months when they finally escaped. Well, except for poor Cory, who was dead by then (and I will brook no nonsense from the likely double ghost-written books that have Cory alive and switched with some other boy). 

I'm still torn as to whether Malcolm knew. I land more on the side that he didn't know because of Olivia's fears that he would immediately succumb to the charms of two girls, Cathy and Carrie. She even had to steel herself not to love them or Chris, who reminded her of Christopher Sr as a young man, before what happened with Corinne, or little Cory, who might have reminded her of a young Mal, Joel, or Chris. I remember how in GoS, it was Malcolm who pushed her to hire the PI to keep tabs and Olivia never revealed anything about the children. 

I will always wonder if it wasn't John Amos who was the impetus behind the codicil (that would have disinherited Corinne if she had children by her first or second husband). Even if Olivia left everything to Corinne, for whatever reasons, which she did, of course, I have to think that John, as her only other living relative, stood to inherit everything if Corinne were to be disinherited. And he was married to her, as of ITBT, so it's clear that all of his preaching about godliness was just that - talk. And he certainly wasn't practicing what he preached about fornication et al when he was screwing the maids at FX like Livvy, the one Chris overhead him with.

I think he showed up to FH, liked what he saw, and took full advantage of a vulnerable, shattered Olivia and a defanged, wheelchair-bound Malcolm. It doesn't seem the show will go into him spying on Corinne and, later, Chris, when he arrives, but it's clear he was obsessed with her, too (and Corinne confirms him being a creeper from the time she was a teen as she was about 13 when Joel "died" in the books and John Amos, sniffing an opportunity, came running). I will also fully believe that he wrote the journal that was supposed to be Malcolm's because I'd be willing to bet Olivia spilled her guts (she did tell John everything, including the fact that Corinne and Chris Sr were actually half-siblings vs half-uncle and niece). It was John's idea to let Corinne come home and lock the children away, forever, which Olivia went along with, in the first place. He also took over Malcolm's business and pretty much all things FH, including the money. 

I'll be very curious to see how it plays out in the final installment and, like I and others have said before, I'd love it if this crew redid the other movies, with making each into mini-series vs 2-hour movies, and gave us a "downstairs" perspective of the events of FITA. 

[TattleTeeny]

Quote

you can't even kiss to make sure you can't be heard

I am sorry -- this is probably irrelevant, but what does this mean?

[Snow Apple]

13 hours ago, StaceyNotStacie said:

I wonder how far into the future they will go with this and who it will follow. Will we go all the way until Olivia dies in the fire or will it stop where the movie picked up or once Malcom dies. Will we see both Olivia’s life and C&C’s lives up to the point where Chris Sr dies in the car crash?

Book Spoiler:

I don't know how far this movie will go, the but ending scene in the book with Olivia seeing Cathy and Chris Jr smiling at each other was chilling.

We know it was just a smile of reassurance and comfort between siblings, but Olivia saw Corrine and Chris Sr's smile for each other which she now knows was love/lust.

[Scarlett45]

1 hour ago, CountryGirl said:

I believe Corinne's head was turned by money as well and it was no coincidence that the donuts started coming right after Malcolm died and the will was read.

Word. But they were in the attic over 3yrs. WHAT was she thinking in the 2+ years they were locked up. 

1 hour ago, CountryGirl said:

I'm still torn as to whether Malcolm knew. I land more on the side that he didn't know because of Olivia's fears that he would immediately succumb to the charms of two girls, Cathy and Carrie. She even had to steel herself not to love them or Chris, who reminded her of Christopher Sr as a young man, before what happened with Corinne, or little Cory, who might have reminded her of a young Mal, Joel, or Chris. I remember how in GoS, it was Malcolm who pushed her to hire the PI to keep tabs and Olivia never revealed anything about the children. 

I am thinking Malcolm likely knew. Why put in a codicil about her having children with ANOTHER husband? Corinne was still somewhat young- 35 or so? Older, but still very much capable of landing a man who wanted biological children. That codicil was to punish her. In the 1950s a woman with no biological children was an object to be pitied. A seriously unfortunate member of society. And even with her money and beauty, there was a social attitude that men only married women for their uteruses, if she couldn't have children, her best chance at a new husband was an older guy who already had children.(he may have been handsome and rich though) Malcolm did that because money was his way to control people (cause no one liked him), it was a final "stick to to Corinne" as a punishment for running off with Christopher and disobeying him. I could 100% see the Malcolm as portrayed by Max Irons doing that. 

1 hour ago, CountryGirl said:

I will also fully believe that he wrote the journal that was supposed to be Malcolm's because I'd be willing to bet Olivia spilled her guts (she did tell John everything, including the fact that Corinne and Chris Sr were actually half-siblings vs half-uncle and niece). It was John's idea to let Corinne come home and lock the children away, forever, which Olivia went along with, in the first place. He also took over Malcolm's business and pretty much all things FH, including the money. 

That's a good point. John Amos probably wanted Corinne home so he could creep on her, but Corinne was hip to his ways and more savvy (being an adult woman)*. I could also see John Amos not realizing that Olivia was going to leave everything to Corinne ANYWAY, so it didn't matter! She would inherit from Malcolm first, OR from Olivia. 

Do you think that Olivia wanted to lock the children away in part because she was jealous of Corinne for having 4 healthy children? Olivia had lost both of her children (in this mini series she knows Joel is alive, but he is lost to her for the time being, and being gay its not likely she is going to get grandchildren from him in the 1940s), and she always wanted more children after Joel. She was stuck married to that POS Malcolm, but her kids were her joy, and they were gone forever. I could see her being jealous of Corinne for being a mother still and also thinking if she would lock them away she didnt deserve them.

*of course anyone can be a victim of violence, but it's much easier to creep on someone without knowledge/suspicion of your intentions, like an adolescent. 

[Daisy]

3 hours ago, TattleTeeny said:

I am sorry -- this is probably irrelevant, but what does this mean?

lol me reading way too many smutty novels. basically, you can't help moaning an screaming when having the sexy times, so just kiss to stop the moaning lol if books are to be believed anyway

[TattleTeeny]

Hahahhaaaa, ohhhhh!

[CountryGirl]

2 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

Do you think that Olivia wanted to lock the children away in part because she was jealous of Corinne for having 4 healthy children? Olivia had lost both of her children (in this mini series she knows Joel is alive, but he is lost to her for the time being, and being gay its not likely she is going to get grandchildren from him in the 1940s), and she always wanted more children after Joel. She was stuck married to that POS Malcolm, but her kids were her joy, and they were gone forever. I could see her being jealous of Corinne for being a mother still and also thinking if she would lock them away she didnt deserve them.

It's a really good question. I think Olivia was jealous that Corinne had children at all, especially healthy children who were deemed gorgeous by society. She also was expecting the children to be born physically or mentally challenged (or both). I think that jealousy - of Corinne, her children - and John Amos' fanatical influence, convincing her that these children were devil's spawn (evil from the moment of conception - interesting how certain phrases can be burned into one's brain) and when she saw what she wanted to see in innocent moments (like Chris smiling at Cathy to reassure her that first night locked away), any soft feelings she had turned to hate.

But even though she's awful for assisting in locking them up, slapping Cory, picking up Carrie by her hair, drugging Cathy and tarring her hair, whipping Cathy and Chris, and the verbal abuse of all of them (and wowza, what a list!), she wasn't half the villainess Corinne was and she did, after all, tell them not to eat sweets. 

[Scarlett45]

29 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

But even though she's awful for assisting in locking them up, slapping Cory, picking up Carrie by her hair, drugging Cathy and tarring her hair, whipping Cathy and Chris, and the verbal abuse of all of them (and wowza, what a list!), she wasn't half the villainess Corinne was and she did, after all, tell them not to eat sweets. 

It is not unheard of for abused persons to become abusers themselves*. No one wants to be the lowest person on the social hierarchy, and I could see how after Olivia endured decades of Malcolm's ill treatment, the loss of her sons, the "betrayal" of Corrine and Christopher, mental manipulation by nasty ass John Amos, she could turn all that rage towards the only people who couldn't fight back (the Dollanganger children). 

But as I often say in situations like this, together, Chris and Cathy would've been able to over power Olivia in a heart beat. Chris was a teenage boy (even though he was malnourished) and two people always have advantage over one. A swift blow to the head and Olivia would've been done for. I am always surprised when people abuse their little children, and then when the child is bigger and stronger than you, you're shocked they fight back. 

*Of course I do not think most abused people end up abusers, I just wanted to make that clear.

[CountryGirl]

6 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

It is not unheard of for abused persons to become abusers themselves*. No one wants to be the lowest person on the social hierarchy, and I could see how after Olivia endured decades of Malcolm's ill treatment, the loss of her sons, the "betrayal" of Corrine and Christopher, mental manipulation by nasty ass John Amos, she could turn all that rage towards the only people who couldn't fight back (the Dollanganger children). 

But as I often say in situations like this, together, Chris and Cathy would've been able to over power Olivia in a heart beat. Chris was a teenage boy (even though he was malnourished) and two people always have advantage over one. A swift blow to the head and Olivia would've been done for. I am always surprised when people abuse their little children, and then when the child is bigger and stronger than you, you're shocked they fight back. 

*Of course I do not think most abused people end up abusers, I just wanted to make that clear.

I, too, always wondered why they didn't get the heck out of there sooner. I fully appreciate Stockholm Syndrome and the cycle of abuse and the fear of it all, but that time Cathy and Chris escaped the house to go to the lake, they could and should have left then. Cory would have survived. I am not putting any of the blame on them, of course, but if they had time to go for a swim, they had time to escape with the twins and gag Carrie if they had to - this is life and death, people!

[Daisy]

10 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

I, too, always wondered why they didn't get the heck out of there sooner. I fully appreciate Stockholm Syndrome and the cycle of abuse and the fear of it all, but that time Cathy and Chris escaped the house to go to the lake, they could and should have left then. Cory would have survived. I am not putting any of the blame on them, of course, but if they had time to go for a swim, they had time to escape with the twins and gag Carrie if they had to - this is life and death, people!

Honestly, I think it was because they trusted their mother. i mean no matter how hard/angry you are - you wanna believe that your mom is still your mom. Look how long it took Christopher to crack.

[Scarlett45]

14 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

I, too, always wondered why they didn't get the heck out of there sooner. I fully appreciate Stockholm Syndrome and the cycle of abuse and the fear of it all, but that time Cathy and Chris escaped the house to go to the lake, they could and should have left then. Cory would have survived. I am not putting any of the blame on them, of course, but if they had time to go for a swim, they had time to escape with the twins and gag Carrie if they had to - this is life and death, people!

They were children. If it takes adults, with skills, knowledge of how the world works and earning potential years to escape abuse, I am not surprised it took two teens over a year to make the decision. And they wanted to believe that their mother loved them- of course they did, she was their MOTHER, and they had lost their father so suddenly. They assumed if they were patient, their grandfather would die and they would be able to live in the lap of luxury for the rest of their lives. I am sure they didnt want to mess that up for their Mom/themselves. 

Cathy was ready to go after the two weeks of no food (which I get, that survival instinct kicked in, who knows the next time that would happen), Chris wasn't convinced until Cory died. Chris and Cathy loved the twins so much, that was clear. They were far better caregivers to them than Corinne ever was. 

Edited to add- @Daisy beat me to it. Corinne was a loving Mom before the attic, WE are surprised she changed, I could see how they just couldn't comprehend it. 

[CountryGirl]

I see where both of you are coming from and it makes total sense. as they were still children and had nothing but the hope of their mother coming through for them to cling to.  I think I got confused with the discussion of Cathy and Chris knocking out the grandmother and assumed that was referencing doing so in order for them to escape. 

I will say this for VC Andrews. She really has kept us having conversations over 4 decades later.

[Scarlett45]

13 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

I think I got confused with the discussion of Cathy and Chris knocking out the grandmother and assumed that was referencing doing so in order for them to escape. 

Oh yes, I meant that they COULD HAVE knocked out Olivia and escaped after one of those beatings. But the psychological hold was so strong. 

[TattleTeeny]

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Do you think that Olivia wanted to lock the children away in part because she was jealous of Corinne for having 4 healthy children? 

I think part of it was that she loved and cared for Corinne and Chris, and they ran off and left her. She kept losing "her" "kids."

[Scarlett45]

1 minute ago, TattleTeeny said:

I think part of it was that she loved and cared for Corinne and Chris, and they ran off and left her. She kept losing "her" "kids."

Yup. You have a good point.

[TattleTeeny]

Further, Corinne witnessed Olivia react to and change because of those other losses; it probably seemed even more traumatic (and even a betrayal) to Olivia that Corinne would take off, even after seeing the pain that the previous losses caused her mom.

Edited July 28, 2022 by TattleTeeny

[nokat]

9 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

Edited to add-Or you mean that Olivia knew Malcolm was a total creeper and a rapist?

Yes, she knew why he wanted a daughter to obsess over and probably abuse.

[Scarlett45]

29 minutes ago, nokat said:

Yes, she knew why he wanted a daughter to obsess over and probably abuse.

Oh yes, I agree.

[psychoticstate]

On 7/27/2022 at 12:50 PM, Scarlett45 said:

These writers are AMAZING. I love what they have been doing. They have used this opportunity to really flesh out the characters and give real motivations to the actions.

What do we want to see for Saturday? I want more Nella- I want her to get some type of revenge on Malcolm. I want evil John Amos to start warping Olivia's mind. I want more of Corinne and Christopher falling in love and making the decision to leave everything behind to be together. 

I would love to see what happened at FH after Christopher and Corrine left and how much Malcolm knew about their lives in Gladstone, PA.  It would be interesting to see, also, if Christopher and/or Corrine had any contact with Olivia from the time they left until Corrine returned with the children.  Corrine either said or inferred that she didn't in FITA but we know she was unreliable on certain things.

On 7/27/2022 at 1:18 PM, Daisy said:

I will have to say  - Corrine and Christopher were dumb bunnies. you are having full on sexy times in the swan bedroom, you can't even kiss to make sure you can't be heard - hello. I will give them the benefit of the doubt because they didn't think anyone would be milling around but - again. they were loud. 

Right?  They had very expansive grounds, including a chapel where Christopher "rescued" Corrine earlier.  Why didn't they go there?  They wouldn't have had to worry about Malcolm, Olivia or the servants.

15 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I think Corrine was lying to Cathy about trying to make the kids a little sick to sneak them out of the house. By that point I think she was just for killing her kids and moving on. She came up with a lot of different excuses to save her marriage to Bart and keep herself out of jail. None of them worked. But that is one thing I love about the books. Your never really sure who to believe. Corrine was unreliable in the first book with her version events that didn't line up in the Garden of Shadows. Was it when Andrew took over and forgot details or Corrine lying. She tried to claim Malcolm was terrible to her but that was a lie. After the first whipping Corrine was able to come and go as she wanted. But Olivia and Cathy were hardly reliable either. I do think Malcolm knew about the four kids. That part he added to his will about if it was ever proven Corrine had kids with her first husband or kids with Bart. That's so something he would do.

I still think that she was being truthful (the cheese may stand alone).  Although Corrine was supposed to be around 35 at the time, she may emotionally have been closer to a teenager, especially living back under Malcolm's roof.  She never had to account for anything growing up, as evidenced by her pregnancy, abortion, and then poisoning of Malcolm.  As much as she felt suffocated by Malcolm, she also knew she could bat her eyes at him and get what she wanted.  I could see her thinking that she could poison the children just enough to make them sick, without accounting for them being malnourished, undersized, lacking in Vitamin D, fresh air and sunshine, etc.  

That doesn't excuse that she did intentionally poison them and it doesn't excuse that she allowed them to be locked up for years.   

I do remember in FITA that Chris and Cathy realized at some point during the first weeks that they would be locked up until Malcolm died.  Obviously, they got this info from Corrine.  I would assume that she figured that once Malcolm died, she would inherit, and the kids could come out of the attic.   Once Malcolm died and she learned of the codicil, she probably had no idea what to do at first.  Then she thought of the poison.  While I do think that in her immature brain she figured she could sneak them out, she clearly never thought of how she would explain their presence to Bart Winslow or how they had been locked up for years. 

7 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

Word. But they were in the attic over 3yrs. WHAT was she thinking in the 2+ years they were locked up. 

I am thinking Malcolm likely knew. Why put in a codicil about her having children with ANOTHER husband? Corinne was still somewhat young- 35 or so? Older, but still very much capable of landing a man who wanted biological children. That codicil was to punish her. In the 1950s a woman with no biological children was an object to be pitied. A seriously unfortunate member of society. And even with her money and beauty, there was a social attitude that men only married women for their uteruses, if she couldn't have children, her best chance at a new husband was an older guy who already had children.(he may have been handsome and rich though) Malcolm did that because money was his way to control people (cause no one liked him), it was a final "stick to to Corinne" as a punishment for running off with Christopher and disobeying him. I could 100% see the Malcolm as portrayed by Max Irons doing that. 

That's a good point. John Amos probably wanted Corinne home so he could creep on her, but Corinne was hip to his ways and more savvy (being an adult woman)*. I could also see John Amos not realizing that Olivia was going to leave everything to Corinne ANYWAY, so it didn't matter! She would inherit from Malcolm first, OR from Olivia. 

Do you think that Olivia wanted to lock the children away in part because she was jealous of Corinne for having 4 healthy children? Olivia had lost both of her children (in this mini series she knows Joel is alive, but he is lost to her for the time being, and being gay its not likely she is going to get grandchildren from him in the 1940s), and she always wanted more children after Joel. She was stuck married to that POS Malcolm, but her kids were her joy, and they were gone forever. I could see her being jealous of Corinne for being a mother still and also thinking if she would lock them away she didnt deserve them.

*of course anyone can be a victim of violence, but it's much easier to creep on someone without knowledge/suspicion of your intentions, like an adolescent. 

I agree that the codicil was to punish her.  Malcolm was probably still salty over the fact that she "chose" Christopher over him.  She ran off and didn't return until Christopher died and then came back with her tail between her legs, so to speak.  He did have her whipped and he continued to punish her while he was still alive by having her children locked up.  It seems only natural that he would want to continue punishing her after he was dead.  

I also wonder if he intended to force her hand and make a choice.  Maybe he knew his daughter well enough to know that she would choose the money.  

But honestly, did he truly think those children would stay locked up for the remainder of their lives?  Or did he suspect that Corrine would harm them?  

3 hours ago, Daisy said:

Honestly, I think it was because they trusted their mother. i mean no matter how hard/angry you are - you wanna believe that your mom is still your mom. Look how long it took Christopher to crack.

Exactly what I was going to say.  They believed in their mother - at least until Cory died and during one of their excursions, found that Corrine and Bart had left FH.  I think that's when Chris and Cathy truly realized they were on their own.  They had no one besides their mother (and each other).  When it became clear that she wasn't going to help them, they had to go.

I recall a part in FITA in which Cathy remembered looking back at FH after their escape and thinking she saw Olivia looking out the windows.  It would be so very interesting, at least IMO, to see all this from Olivia's point of view.  

[nokat]

7 hours ago, Snow Apple said:

Book Spoiler:

I don't know how far this movie will go, the but ending scene in the book with Olivia seeing Cathy and Chris Jr smiling at each other was chilling.

We know it was just a smile of reassurance and comfort between siblings, but Olivia saw Corrine and Chris Sr's smile for each other which she now knows was love/lust.

Thank you for the Spoiler warning.

[andromeda331]

On 7/28/2022 at 9:01 AM, Snow Apple said:

Book Spoiler:

I don't know how far this movie will go, the but ending scene in the book with Olivia seeing Cathy and Chris Jr smiling at each other was chilling.

We know it was just a smile of reassurance and comfort between siblings, but Olivia saw Corrine and Chris Sr's smile for each other which she now knows was love/lust.

Poor Christopher Jr and Cathy got brunt of Olivia's anger towards their parents. She loved Chris Sr and Corrine. She was the one who insisted on Chris coming to live with them after getting Alicia's letter. Those years raising Chris Sr and Corrine were really great for Olivia. She got back what she lost with Mal's and Joel's death. She felt really betrayed especially by Chris Sr when it came out about him and Corrine. She brought him into the house, loved in and he stole their daughter. There was nothing Chris Jr and Cathy could do to "win" over Olivia because she couldn't stop seeing them as Chris and Corrine. Any nice moment between them Olivia would assume the worse. It really stinks they didn't do anything wrong and locking them up is what made them end up together. She got the very thing she wanted to prevent. Although to Olivia that would be just more "proof". 

Edited July 29, 2022 by andromeda331