S03.E04: Unbreak-Able

[queenanne]

I did understand it. Things with Norma had been going a LOT better. She told him he was the only one she could trust (when the drive thing). He told her he didn't want her to get hurt and she hugged him. It's safe to say this is probably the best they've been in a long time, if not ever. I mean, hell, she's confiding in him and not Norman, that's pretty huge. And now he's gonna lose her. Poor Dylan.

 

Frankly, this week is the first time around I felt scared that possibly the way they're going to usher out Dylan, is by Norman's hand. :(

[designing1]

 

One thing that bugged me though: Dylan wanted to take the drive out of the house to protect Norma... but the bad guys wouldn't know that. If anything, taking the drive out of the house protected the drive  not Norma and Norman.

 

Thank you. What happens when the bad guys come back? "Oh, hey, bad guys? You know that thing you're looking for? Well, even though we don't know what you're talking about we've moved it, so please leave family and property alone, OK? Great, case closed, then." Not to mention he's as stupid as his mother for not turning it over to Romero and letting the unknown, password protected chips fall where they may.

[Timetoread]

BTW - how many people think that the password is: Norman?  Just sayin'.

[JenE4]

BTW - how many people think that the password is: Norman? Just sayin'.

I loved that Norma's guesses were "Annika," "Johnson," and "sexcrazed"--the only three things she knows about her, lol!

[maczero]

Did anyone else catch that promising line Bob (?) had about how Romero was outside the thick of things "lately"?  Thereby implying a time where he might have been one of the sex patrons or similar?  I thought I did and it strikes me as so promising, because one of the things I was thinking lately was, the writers are going to have to start making some firm decisions about Romero's character, at least to the point of narrowing down where he falls on the white hat/black hat spectrum, instead of vaguing about the issue.  (There may be more.  I feel there's more... Will post again if I remember.)

I don't think his comment was regarding Romero being a sex patron.  The town itself is (or was) supported by the marijuana trade.  I'm under the impression that the town's power players are either heavily involved with it or earn income in relation to marijuana.  Romero made a conscious effort not to arrest anyone involved in dealing or growing unless it was connected to a violent crime.  My bet was Romero was getting a cut of the drug profits.  I'm guessing he's on the outs with the town's elite because the drug war happened under his watch.

 

Caleb gives me the creeps. Something about how he started (literally) crying that he needed to apologize to Norma, even though she didn't want to hear it and even though he didn't even care if she forgave him...that just creeped me the hell out. I guess because it was so self-absorbed. How can a man be so self-absorbed when he's talking about apologizing for RAPING someone? Who can say with a straight face how much he loves someone and that she's his whole world, when he's also talking about RAPING her? Idk, Caleb still seems like he's all about what would be best for Caleb and what Caleb wants, not what would be best for Norma or what Norma wants, and that makes me think he needs to stay as far away as possible from her and that he's still dangerous.

Makes perfect sense to me.  Wanting forgiveness is a selfish act.  People essentially want forgiveness to relieve guilt.  

[ganesh]

Norman was just super creepy with his making out with Emma just to get his mother's attention.

 

This was *hilarious* because Norma was like, 'what the fuck ever. don't mack in the office.'

 

I'm not saying he didn't rape her.  I think they can spin it as they were both abused, neglected minors in a terrible situation and Norma encouraged their physical relationship but Caleb blames himself due to being older.  They have a lot of latitude in how they could go with it.

 

Obviously, rape is wrong and anyone who does should go to jail. However, since we're talking about fictional characters, I think this is a more compelling storyline. Does Caleb deserve forgiveness or pity? No. Given Dylan, it's more complex. 

 

Regardless of what we know how the show basically ends, the show does messy really well. 

 

Honestly, Norman's been a bitch and he needs a smack. 

 

I love Romero's "put upon ness". Everyone gives him shit. "Please don't tell me I have to get a warrant, Norma."

 

I'm wondering if TPTBs will have Romero lose the election. I'm wondering what he'd do next?

[Avaleigh]

Holy crap when it comes to the creep factor on this show! Even when I'm *expecting* weird ass shit between Norma and Norman my jaw was still on the ground in shock a couple of times during this episode.

The way he was looking at Norma when he was kissing Emma--he is so fucking disturbing Ican't even. Poor Emma. Hopefully now that she feels insulted by Norman she'll start looking elsewhere. I'm still keeping my fingers crossed that she and Dylan will hook up somehow.

Why is Norma so dead set against telling Romero about the drive? Hasn't he proven his loyalty enough?

I pretty much wanted to vomit when Caleb started crying about how he wants to apologize and went into what *he* wants.

That fall Caleb took seemed like it was straight out of Family Guy I couldn't take it seriously at all and knew he wouldn't die or anything.

I wonder what they're setting up with Norma and the psych professor? My early guesses are that Norma will try to get Norman to talk to him or that this guy is somehow involved in the murder mystery plotline. I only get a romantic vibe between Norma and Romero.

As for Norman delighting in being able to come between Norma and Dylan--it's fucked up on so many levels and is almost playing out like a twisted and bizarre love triangle. Possibly the weirdest part about this is that the Oedipal/Freudian/whatever vibe is also apparent in the Norma/Dylan relationship even though their relationship is healthier than the one Norma has with Norman. IMO the creepy factor is definitely there it just doesn't come across quite as bad if it's compared with the way more troubling dynamic between Norma and Norman.

The jealousy felt between the three of them has been apparent in every season to me and I think Norma has unknowingly made it worse by looking to each son at various points and for different reasons, as a kind of substitute male figure since she's been single. With Norman, Norma seems to look to him to fill her emotional needs. Norman is the son that she wants to have dinner with, watch movies, go on picnics, lean on emotionally like when she learned of her mother's death, etc. With Dylan, Norma seems to see him as a stronger male figure, someone capable of protecting both her and Norman. Dylan makes her feel safe, she seems to value his opinion, and she sees him as somebody who can give Norman manly advice almost in the way that a father figure would.

ETA: I think that Norman recognizes that Norma sees Dylan as being the "man of the house" of the house and someone she sees as more of an equal.

I'm looking forward to Caleb and Norma seeing each other again. I feel like some major stuff is going to go down when that finally happens. I won't be surprised if Norman kills Caleb.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Avaleigh

[Sakura12]

Run Emma! This show is the creepiest incestuous show I've ever watched. I thought the Game of Thrones Twincest was gross but now I see Norman macking on Emma to make his mother jealous. I did like that Norma didn't care and threatened to hurt Norman if he hurt Emma. Norma only cares for her own family which is mostly Norman and sometimes Dylan, I like that she included a small spot for Emma in there. 

 

Whoever said Caleb falling was like Family Guy was so right. That family is so messed up. Brother is in love with sister and had a kid together, sister is in love with her second son, son is in love with mother. I really hope Dylan and Emma pack up and move out of that town before something happens to them. 

 

Norma's password tries: Annkia, Johnson, Sexcrazed. haha. Then she waits around in coffee shop hoping to find a Hacker and she does. 

Edited April 2, 2015 by Sakura12

[ganesh]

Game of Thrones twincest is positively a disney movie compared to this creepfest.

[Avaleigh]

About Norman and Dylan--

I definitely think that Norman is still furious about Dylan being instrumental in Norma telling Norman that he shouldn't sleep in her bed anymore.

Regarding Norman growing increasingly bizarre this season- -

I don't think I've seen anyone mention this yet but what was up with Norman wearing Norma's apron while he was making the sandwiches for the picnic? It was such an odd little detail. Norman's going on about how this is *his* house and he almost seems like he's trying to assert his role as the man of the house but at the same time,he's going aroung the house wearing his mother's apron in what comes across to me as a subconscious imitation of her.

Including the bit with the apron might have simply been a quirky moment of humor but I also felt like it could be one more hint of Norman taking on more and and more of Norma's attributes.

Incidentally, who the heck wears an apron when they're making a couple of sandwiches? Man or woman it just doesn't seem like it would be all that common.

Edited because it's good to get the character names right. ;-)

Edited April 2, 2015 by Avaleigh

[Guest]

To be clear, I'm not at all saying anybody here is "bad" or anything for considering the possibility that the show might be heading towards "sympathy for the rapist". What's bad is that it's prevalent enough in TV shows that we've come to expect this kind of plot. That makes it too prevalent in our culture for comfort, imo.

 

I think it's just the nature of tv.  Murder is also bad, always, period, but it's ok that we see Norman's sympathetic side.  I think it's normal to enjoy seeing characters move around in the shades of gray.  That's how real humans are.  I think 1970s tv had just black and white characters-- moustache twirling villains pursued by white knights.  I like it better now.  

 

I don't love just random character re-assignment, which is also really common, like Dylan saying things in season 1 that season 3 Dylan would never say.  It doesn't seem like character development, just pivoting on a dime for the sake of a story or something.  I can buy rapist Caleb being repentant decades later.  I have trouble buying a completely mouthy, disrespectful son turning into a sweet, loving protector for no apparent reason, in a matter of months or however much time has past.  

[Timetoread]

I have trouble buying a completely mouthy, disrespectful son turning into a sweet, loving protector for no apparent reason, in a matter of months or however much time has past.

 

Well to be fair, from S1 to now, Dylan has actually lived with his mother, killed mother's raging cop boyfriend, found out baby bro is cray, found out cray baby bro killed his own father and that his mother covered for him, backed into being a major player in the drug industry that has resulted in his killing at least two people (honestly I lost count because I didn't care), found out his cray brother is STILL killing people - all the while marveling that the nerdy little cray creep also has a pretty impressive sex life with girls worthy of Dylan himself.  And oh yeah, Mom's been lying all these years about being an only child - we have an uncle!  What's that you say?  My uncle is my real dad? WTF?

 

Honestly if Dylan were to pull out his vomit shirt and retreat to a corner to babble and drool to himself, I'd allow it.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Timetoread

[Aquarius]

Honestly if Dylan were to pull out his vomit shirt and retreat to a corner to babble and drool to himself, I'd allow it.

 

I don't know how he keeps from doing that, to be honest.

[Guest]

Well to be fair, from S1 to now, Dylan has actually lived with his mother, killed mother's raging cop boyfriend, found out baby bro is cray, found out cray baby bro killed his own father and that his mother covered for him, backed into being a major player in the drug industry that has resulted in his killing at least two people (honestly I lost count because I didn't care), found out his cray brother is STILL killing people - all the while marveling that the nerdy little cray creep also has a pretty impressive sex life with girls worthy of Dylan himself.  And oh yeah, Mom's been lying all these years about being an only child - we have an uncle!  What's that you say?  My uncle is my real dad? WTF?

 

Honestly if Dylan were to pull out his vomit shirt and retreat to a corner to babble and drool to himself, I'd allow it.

That's true.  But I would kind of suspect all that would turn an asshole kid into a bigger asshole to be honest!  

[Bec]

Yeah, just about everybody's a murderer on this show, I see your point, Winston9-DT3, but I'm just not as discomfited by murder plots on TV because in real life there isn't as much confusion amongst the populance on what murder is and whether something should even count as murder.

 

They don't have to make Caleb a moustache twirling villain. A lot of real life rapists seem like really nice guys, that's how they fly under the radar and get away with shit. But if the writing is trying to get us to feel for Caleb, that's just weird considering he was still ranting about Norma being irrational for not wanting to talk to him this very episode!

 

But considering the writing put that rant in there and had Dylan call bullshit and say to him that it's actually perfectly reasonable Norma doesn't want to talk to her rapist, maybe we are not really supposed to take Caleb's "repentance" that seriously. I just don't know with this show!

 

At least the writing more or less cleared up the "did Caleb really rape Norma or did she twist the truth" plot point? He basically confessed to raping her. I should hope that part is not confusing to anyone anymore. (Not that anyone here seem confused this week.)

 

I do like the conflict Caleb brings to the show, but I'm not really interested enough in him as a character to want to spend this much time considering his widdle feelings (so tired of his cry faces already). All I care about is how he affects Norman, Norma and Dylan. Caleb really only has a few modes: act like an asshole, then act like a sad sack when asshole-mode didn't get him the desired result, rinse, repeat. He is just not that fascinating. Norma, on the other hand, is by far the most fascinating character on this show if not in all of TV.

 

Avaleigh, I noticed the apron, too! So I think that is actually the "Bone thrown to everyone who's ever seen Psycho" of the week. It made me think of a scene last season where we see an apron-wearing person who we would assume is Norma, and then the camera panned up and it was Norman!

Edited April 2, 2015 by Bec

[Palomar]

BTW - how many people think that the password is: Norman?  Just sayin'.

 

 

That is definitely what I thougt, especially since she mentioned how it would help Norman.

[rue721]

Wouldn't the password likely have something to do with the Club? I would guess Annika stole it from one of those guys. Unfortunately, the person most likely to know the password (and be willing to help Norma) is Romero.

 

I don't really understand why Norma isn't giving him the flashdrive. Because the guys that Annika was messing around with were rich, and Norma thinks the flashdrive could lead to buried treasure or something? I just don't even know what Norma is hoping to get out of getting the information off of it, because what does she really need help with right now?

[natyxg]

Wouldn't the password likely have something to do with the Club? I would guess Annika stole it from one of those guys. Unfortunately, the person most likely to know the password (and be willing to help Norma) is Romero.

 

I don't really understand why Norma isn't giving him the flashdrive. Because the guys that Annika was messing around with were rich, and Norma thinks the flashdrive could lead to buried treasure or something? I just don't even know what Norma is hoping to get out of getting the information off of it, because what does she really need help with right now?

 

I think Norma hopes it has info that can help them with the pass thing that is gonna leave them without customers. She probably wants to give it a look and knows that if Romero takes it into evidence she might not be able to.

[molshoop]

 

found out cray baby bro killed his own father and that his mother covered for him

 I've watched every episode of this show.  Was Norman ever shown killing his father?  I know he

doesn't remember what happened. I guess I'm not sure what happened either.

 

[truthaboutluv]

It was shown in flashback when Norma told Dylan what happened. Dylan was actually convinced Norma murdered her husband because he quickly figured out there was something suspicious about the guy's death and thought Norma was acting guilty. He even told Norman that Norma lied to him and she killed his father.

 

This was when Norman even threatened to leave and move in with Dylan. After the whole incident with the crazy boyfriend and Norman went into his catatonic state, Norma finally tells Dylan what happened and admitted that Norman was the one who killed his father but he didn't remember. 

Edited April 2, 2015 by truthaboutluv

[JenE4]

I've watched every episode of this show. Was Norman ever shown killing his father? I know he doesn't remember what happened. I guess I'm not sure what happened either.

Yes. His dad was roughing up Norma and Norman hit him upside the head with a blender.

[house864]

This is the way I see the story in regards to Caleb and Norma and their past. I see Caleb's remark about Norma being the smart one as more an admission that she was the less delusional one. Which from what we know of Norma says tons about Caleb's character. So setting the stage we have two kids abused, ignored and mistreated who only have each other to turn to and learn from. A bad situation right from the start but then hormones and experimentation turn it into a sexual relationship. After a few years of this Norma hears/realizes its wrong and ends it. To Caleb this is akin to being dumped by his girlfriend and abandoned by his only friend all at once. He's distraught and the feelings are acerbated by the fact that "the love of his life" and his only real confidant also lives in the same house as him and he has to see and be around constantly. Oh yeah and he's delusional and a more than a little nutso which applies to both of them. So basically the situation is a parallel to Norma/Normans relationship. Because of her past and everything's she's dealt with she doesn't know how to form a healthy relationship with a male. Whether it be her sons, the sheriff, or any guy she meets her boundaries are all messed up. Whether this began with her brother or goes further back we don't know but we do know that the way she deals with discomfort is snark and condescension. And applied to Caleb with them being in close quarters and his delusional mind being heartbroken he snaps. Just like what will enevitably happen with Norma and Norman as told by the movie. Norma is the victim both times not just of the men in her life but of her circumstances and upbringing which causes her to almost create these situations that put her in danger over and over because of her inability to interact with well, not just males, but people period in a healthy and normal manner.

[Avaleigh]

I've been wanting to weigh in on Norma and Caleb but haven't had the chance--I'm loving reading everyone's take on it all. Thanks too, Aquarius, for breaking down why discussing the possibility that Norma isn't telling the full story is worthy of discussion without it having to mean that there is going to be some sort of sick victim blaming or something like that.

Norma was raped and Caleb deserves zero sympathy as far as I'm concerned. I don't even know that I agree that his character would be "whitewashed" if it's confirmed by Norma as well that the in the beginning their relationship was consensual until she figured out it was wrong because he's still a rapist at the end of the day.

I've never for a moment believed that Norma was some thirteen year old seductress. Initially I thought they were slightly older when all this happened but now I'm thinking that it's like another poster suggested--they began experimenting and after a time Norma figured out that it was wrong. (Do we know how much older Caleb is?) Caleb couldn't accept it and and consequently hurt his sister in the worst way he possibly could. There's no doubt that she's been horribly damaged by what he put her through.

Someone upthread asked why some posters doubt Norma's version of events. As someone who has speculated that Norma might very well have left out some key details, I feel like we've been given more evidence that this seems to be the case.

I also think it would be perfectly in character for Norma to not reflect on what incest has done to her life when evaluating her relationship with Norman.

It's true that Caleb might be lying about the beginning of what happened between he and Norma but he admitted to the rape so I got the impression that we were supposed to take that to be a sincere reveal in that scene just as Dylan did. He was drinking and in physical pain and I feel like people tend to lean towards truthful in those sorts of situations.

Another thing, and this is totally minor and probably doesn't mean anything but has anyone else noticed the "sad, sad music" (Romy&Michele) that sometimes plays for Caleb? It's actually made me LOL a couple of times especially in contrast to the music for characters like Bob and Norman.

Re how much Norma is to blame for Norman becoming a psychopath right in front of her--

I agree that Norman is to blame for his own actions and I think the poster who pointed out that the Norma in his head bears little resemblance to his mother is spot on. That being said, Norma certainlyisn't helping the situation. The way she so quickly caved over having him sleep in her bed again is a perfect example of Norma putting her needs over what's best for Norman. She's always been threatened by Norman having a sexual relationship. At first I liked how she threatened to kick Norman's ass over potentially hurting Emma but now that I think about it the scene seemed to be more about her responding to Norman's childish goading than genuine concern for Emma. She was totally bothered by the fact that the picnic wasn't for her. Then Norman made the dig about spending time with a younger woman. Suddenly Norma wants to be Emma's champion.

[Mabinogia]

The most fascinating thing about this show is that, while I see how Norma helped to make Norman into a psycho, I can still sympathize with her and understand why it happened. That is the best thing to me. She wasn't just some terrible, abusive ogre, she is truly a damaged little girl in a grown up body. She shouldn't sleep in the same bed with him but that's what she and her brother did, it's her norm. She should get him therapy, but she saw what the drugs did to her mom. It just all makes sense in a terrible, terrible way. I also see why she wouldn't trust Romero with the drive. She doesn't trust. Especially men. And I even see why the incest happened between her and Caleb. They were two kids who only had each other, dealing with an abusive dad, a sick mom, they were probably outcasts at school and no one taught them it was wrong. Very Flowers in the Attic.

 

That doesn't mean he didn't rape her. It doesn't mean she was a seductress. It was two damaged children trying their best to find some human connection and it is heartbreaking. That said, I love Norma and hate Caleb. I think that's mostly just the actors. Vera portrays so much vulnerability in Norma that no matter what she does, I just see it as lashing out because of damage. The actor playing Caleb, OTOH, just looks creepy to me. Sorry dude. And there is something more deliberate feeling in his manipulation. With Norma, I don't think she realizes she's being manipulative. She is like a child acting on instinct. She's reactionary. Norman starts to shut her out and she does something manipulative to get him back. But Caleb is more proactive. He came to town to get Norma back and all his actions have felt deliberate. Even his interactions with Dylan feel very planned and purposeful. He just feels like he's constantly up to something.

 

It's a fascinating dynamic and I could really care less about the town (though I LOVE Romero). I could sit and watch the Bates' have family dinner and would be riveted. The acting on this show is superb. Truly

[Timetoread]

And there is something more deliberate feeling in his manipulation. With Norma, I don't think she realizes she's being manipulative. She is like a child acting on instinct. She's reactionary. Norman starts to shut her out and she does something manipulative to get him back. But Caleb is more proactive. He came to town to get Norma back and all his actions have felt deliberate. Even his interactions with Dylan feel very planned and purposeful. He just feels like he's constantly up to something.

 

Did you nail it or what!  I feel the same way about Caleb.  He's been very gentle with Dylan,  he allowed Norma to physically throw him out, he acquiesces to the claims of rape and abuse, he's even quiet about Norman's attack on him.  But something about him, I can't quite put my finger on yet, chills me to the bone.  He's playing at low profile but I sense the strength in him.  Like a floating great white shark.  He won't take no for an answer.  He won't go away.  He won't stop.  This is him NOW.  Can you imagine how it must have been stuck in that house with him and him absolutely refusing to stop.  In her initial argument with Dylan Norma made a comment like "I couldn't get him to leave me alone."  It broke my heart for her.  I've believed her since the minute she said it.  She was forced to live with a predator, but I also remember what she said to Norman that she was scared to tell their father because her father would have killed Caleb.  It was like she endured the abuse AND had to protect her abuser at the same time.  I think this sums up Norma in a nutshell: cornered. 

 

Not related to the episode, but I was thinking about our discussion while driving and had the most chilling thought.  I was thinking how Norma is doing all the wrong things when it comes to Norman and how ultimately, we know this, she will pay for her mistakes with her life.  For reasons unknown my mind immediately flashed to the Newtown Shooter.  A troubled young man with a wrong-headed mother who was not willing to truly accept the extent of her son's issues, who made many mistakes in trying to protect him and make him a "man".  This kid was estranged from the other men in his family - his father and his own older brother.  She never wanted to admit that he was dangerously sick and she paid with her life.  She was mercifully too dead to witness the full extent of the monster she had reared.  Like Norma, it probably wasn't really her fault - she loved him the best she could and he was born that way - but the parallel actually made me sick to my stomach.  He even looked like a Norman Bates.

[queenanne]

I think Norma hopes it has info that can help them with the pass thing that is gonna leave them without customers. She probably wants to give it a look and knows that if Romero takes it into evidence she might not be able to.

 

Yes, precisely.  Norma thinks Annika snagged some anti-bypass material there on the flash drive.  She may not even be wrong, as I think Norman did tell Annika about the bypass woes when they were driving around.  And even if Norman didn't, Norma strikes me as just the sort of person capable of magical thinking in this light, that Annika would somehow just know that she was having trouble with the bypass, and act accordingly.

[Avaleigh]

Yikes, Timetoread, your post gave me chills.

I think part of the reason I have such sympathy for Norma is that I know that her situation is hopeless and that there is no chance at happiness for her. Whatever success she experiences will be fleeting. Any happiness temporary. She probably has, what, five years at most before she meets the most brutal and horrific sort of death. It's sad. I know Norma is a big ball of crazy but IMO she doesn't deserve anything like that sort of fate.

Regarding Norma's version of events not including the part that Caleb mentioned, I wonder if Norma didn't bring it up to Norman because she felt that it would complicate the issue and lead to more questions from Norman that she didn't feel like answering because it's all too painful.

[natyxg]

(Do we know how much older Caleb is?)

 

Bates Motel Wiki claims that Caleb is 49 and Norma is 39.

 

http://batesmotel.wikia.com/wiki/Caleb_Calhoun

http://batesmotel.wikia.com/wiki/Norma_Bates

 

But I don't really know where they got the info from and places like those aren't always trustworthy. I couldn't find any other info, but if true yikes!

 

Re how much Norma is to blame for Norman becoming a psychopath right in front of her--

 

I think a big part of Norman's problem is genetic, some hereditary mental illness. I fully expected the show to tell me that it was all Norma's fault, that she was abusive and incestuous and made him crazy,that she beat him for being a boy and called him filthy and sexually abused him and made him snap and hate women and hate that he felt attracted to women, or stuff like that. But I don't think they are showing us that. Don't get me wrong, Norma IS inappropriate and emotionally incestuous with Norman and has used him to fill her emotional needs, as if he was her husband and not her son, and while that obviously would make for a troubled young man I'm not convinced that what I have seen could produce Norman. A man dependant on his mother, unable to form healthy relationships with women, unable to grow up and leave home or make a decision on his own?  Yes. A young man who mixes sex with murder and fetishes his own mother? I'm not that sure. The Norma in Norman's head is not the Norma we know. Where is this coming from? I don't think the fact that his grandmother was severely mentally ill was thrown there for no reason. His father's abuse probably played a role as well.

 

Having said that, Norma is showing her own issues by not getting him help after seeing him kill his dad and is enabling his getting worse.

 

I really like Norma a lot as a character. She's the breakout star of the show, for me.

[natyxg]

I think part of the reason I have such sympathy for Norma is that I know that her situation is hopeless and that there is no chance at happiness for her. Whatever success she experiences will be fleeting. Any happiness temporary. She probably has, what, five years at most before she meets the most brutal and horrific sort of death. It's sad. I know Norma is a big ball of crazy but IMO she doesn't deserve anything like that sort of fate.

 

I have sympathy for her because I think she is really damaged and can be a bad mother, but she doesn't have bad intentions. She is emotionally crippled but tries and tries to be a good mother and person... only she messes up a lot cause she is fucked in the head. Ever since the show started she has just been shat on and shat on when she is just trying to do her thing. I expected her to be the villain of the show, but imo she is one of its biggest victims, along with Dylan, probably . She has spent the show protecting Norman and while that is not the best thing she can do for him and others I don't know if in her situation I wouldn't choose denial, too, in order to keep my son out of jail and with me if he is all I have. IIRC she has never found definitive proof that he killed anyone but his father, right? And that was when Daddy Norman was abusing her. So I find her very human as well.

[Bec]

I see Caleb's remark about Norma being the smart one as more an admission that she was the less delusional one. Which from what we know of Norma says tons about Caleb's character.

He definitely strikes me as even more delusional than Norma. More delusional and more inclined to use violence. Norma's brand of crazy has nothing on his brand of crazy. I even doubt Norma was ever okay with having sex with him. He very well could have deluded himself into thinking she ever wanted sex with him. Caleb's the type who thinks the lack of a forceful no equals tacit approval. And if someone says no, he still thinks he can turn that around if he tries.

 

Seriously, yeah, look at how he is with Dylan now! This is Caleb after he had time to reflect on past mistakes and mellow out a bit. What was he like before?

 

has anyone else noticed the "sad, sad music"

Oh yeah. It makes me roll my eyes like "am I supposed to feel bad for this asshole?"

[Guest]

Bates Motel Wiki claims that Caleb is 49 and Norma is 39.

 

http://batesmotel.wikia.com/wiki/Caleb_Calhoun

http://batesmotel.wikia.com/wiki/Norma_Bates

 

But I don't really know where they got the info from and places like those aren't always trustworthy. I couldn't find any other info, but if true yikes!

 

I think Caleb's age there must be wrong.  That would imply Caleb was living with his abusive parents well into his mid 20s.  The story makes a lot more sense if he's a year or two older than Norma.  

[DittyDotDot]

I do love this messed up little show about a bunch of messed up people. You go Emma...and I mean go. Get in your cute-as-a-bug Bug and go. As fast and as far as said Bug will carry you! But also, way to stand up for yourself, too! ;)

 

So, creeper Caleb gets creepier and now Dylan's probably on the outs with Norma? Man it sucks to be you Dylan. Maybe you should join Emma in her cute-as-a-bug Bug and get the hell outta town while you still can.

 

 

Wouldn't the password likely have something to do with the Club? I would guess Annika stole it from one of those guys. Unfortunately, the person most likely to know the password (and be willing to help Norma) is Romero.

 

That was my thought too. But did find it hilarious how Norma was trying the most obvious and the most obviously wrong things--so very Norma. Has anyone else wondered if this "club" is at all tied to the sex trafficking from S1? I'm just wondering if Norman's dirty little book he found from the abducted girl will make a reappearance? Does anyone remember what happened to it?

 

 

Bates Motel Wiki claims that Caleb is 49 and Norma is 39.

 

http://batesmotel.wikia.com/wiki/Caleb_Calhoun

http://batesmotel.wikia.com/wiki/Norma_Bates

 

But I don't really know where they got the info from and places like those aren't always trustworthy. I couldn't find any other info, but if true yikes!

 

That's weird...I could've sworn it was stated Caleb was only a year older than Norma. I hate it when something is right at the edge of my memory and I can't quite get at it. Anyway, It seems hinky to me. If the incest started when Norma was 12, that makes Caleb 22 and makes no sense he wouldn't know it was wrong at that age. Makes more sense she was 12 and he was 13 and they were both just two very damaged kids who got caught up in something they didn't understand. But once Norma tried to stop it, Caleb stepped out of the realm of victim and became the abuser.

 

Personally, saying Norma may not be the most reliable narrator does not mean I think Caleb didn't rape Norma, nor that I think Norma was some manipulating vixen who seduced Caleb or that what Caleb did was not wrong. I just think both Caleb and Norma's remembering is probably colored by the years and trauma and neither probably has a full understanding of what happened to them considering how young and damaged they were. I think what Caleb did was rape and that is something they can never make sympathetic to me. But I can also see how this messed up situation could happen and can see how Caleb was a victim once too.

 

 

 

ETA: Has anyone else wondered why Norma hasn't at least attempted to wire up her bumper? I love to see it and get a chuckle every time it's slightly swaying as she drives, but it seems oddly out of character she wouldn't try some sort of repair...if for nothing else, to keep up appearances. Maybe it's supposed to be a subtle hint at how Norma isn't trying to hide the crazy anymore?

Edited April 4, 2015 by DittyDotDot

[editorgrrl]

That fall Caleb took seemed like it was straight out of Family Guy I couldn't take it seriously at all and knew he wouldn't die or anything.

Me, too! Had this episode been titled "Unbreakable," I'd think it a reference to Dylan's uncle-dad bouncing off that fancy schmancy wood he forced upon his nephew-son.

Does "Unbreak-Able" mean the Bates boys are Cain & Abel?

[DittyDotDot]

Does "Unbreak-Able" mean the Bates boys are Cain & Abel?

 

That was my take on it. Jealousy over a parent's love and possible killing...maybe I'm being influenced by the anvils over on Supernatural right now, though.

Edited April 4, 2015 by DittyDotDot

[opus]

I hate when my sisters birthday interrupts the three way.

[rue721]

Caleb's claim that they just didn't know that incest was wrong reeks of bullshit. What American teenager in 1987 or 1988 would have had ~no idea~ that incest is taboo? Also, as heartbreaking as the incest is, the main problem imo is the *rape.*

 

I suspect that Norma probably put her foot down when she realized how catastrophic it would be for anyone outside the family to find out about the incest ("anyone" such as the boyfriend who became her future first husband, for example). Instead of telling Caleb that they couldn't do it anymore because she was with another boy and inflaming his jealousy even more than she had t, she told him that she couldn't be with him anymore because it was wrong.

 

Anyway, I don't really think there are all that many "sides" to the story. Caleb and Norma's stories match up pretty well imo. In this past episode, Caleb explicitly corroborated everything that Norma had told Dylan.

 

This is all making me very curious about Norma's first husband. Why is Norma so insistent that Caleb is Dylan's father, not this other man? She had to have been sleeping with them both during the time she got pregnant, so how could she even be entirely sure? It is so strange to me that, in a sense, Norma and Dylan seem to *prefer* the idea of Caleb being his father. Norma is insisting on it, and Dylan is clearly touched by Caleb treating him as his son. Even when Norma first told the boys that Caleb was Dylan's father and everyone was freaking out, there was pretty much *no* mention of her first husband, or that this meant Dylan wasn't related to him or his side of the family after all. Not that I have a problem with any of that, it just makes me curious about the Bates-Massett family's past, because it's a little enigmatic. Same thing with how Dylan had Norma in his phone as The Whore and has this whole complex about Norma using him (even while he's trying to get back into her good graces by helping her -- giving her money, physically protecting her, etc). He acts like she really manipulated and betrayed him in order to get what she wanted from him -- which is a totally plausible thing to have happened, but it's still so unclear what history he's actually thinking of when he feels like that.

 

Also, w/r/t the change in his behavior toward her since S1 -- personally, I don't find it hard to believe. I think he had his guard WAY WAY WAY up when he first got into town, because he knew she hated him (he had to track her down through her husband's old contacts in order to even find her), but he also needed her. I think he was probably scared (that she wouldn't help him or that she'd take advantage of him) and angry. But she's become much softer and nicer, and he's gotten a lot of success and respect since he came into town, too, and I think that's been lulling him into a sense of security and softening him up.

 

The sad thing about Norma, Dylan and Norman, imo, is that their life in White Pine Bay is probably the *best* their life has ever been. They aren't living with any abusive man -- Norma isn't getting raped or beaten by either men who live in that house. Is that the first time that's ever happened for her? Is this the first time that her sons aren't seeing her being beaten/raped/victimized by "the man of the house"? Based on what Dylan said when he first came to town, this is also the most financially comfortable they've ever been.

[DittyDotDot]

This is all making me very curious about Norma's first husband. Why is Norma so insistent that Caleb is Dylan's father, not this other man? She had to have been sleeping with them both during the time she got pregnant, so how could she even be entirely sure? It is so strange to me that, in a sense, Norma and Dylan seem to *prefer* the idea of Caleb being his father. Norma is insisting on it, and Dylan is clearly touched by Caleb treating him as his son. Even when Norma first told the boys that Caleb was Dylan's father and everyone was freaking out, there was pretty much *no* mention of her first husband, or that this meant Dylan wasn't related to him or his side of the family after all.

 

I'm not sure if it was implicitly stated or if this is just my interpretation, but I thought she got pregnant via Caleb, got scared of people finding out about her and Caleb and went out and got a guy to sleep with her so she could pass it off as his kid and escape her messed up family. I'm not sure she was sleeping with both the guys when she actually got pregnant...I'm not sure why I have this impression, though?

Edited April 4, 2015 by DittyDotDot

[peacheslatour]

O.k. here's another confusing thing ( maybe it's just me) Caleb's last Name is Calhoun, Dylan's last name is Massett, Norma and Norman are Bates.  Was Norman's dad's last name Bates?  And Norma's maiden name was Calhoun?  Then who is Massett???

Edited April 4, 2015 by peacheslatour

[DittyDotDot]

Yes, Norma's maiden name would've been Calhoun. She married the man who Dylan thought was his father, his name was Masset. Then she married Norman's dad whose name was Bates.

 

I can't recall if Dylan's supposed dad (Massett) just left them or died, though. I seem to recall Dylan saying Norma drove him away, but then I also thought he was dead....hmmm?

[Mabinogia]

That is the impression I got too, DittyDotDot. She was sleeping with Caleb, found out she was pregnant and got her boyfriend to sleep with her so she could pass the baby off as his. This was Massett and he married her. The next bit is speculation based on The Whore. Norma probably started cheating on Massett, a guy she wasn't in love with to begin with but married to escape her life/brother, with Bates. It would make sense that Dylan thinks it is Norma's whoring with Norman's father that ruined his family, not knowing that his family was ruined long before he was born. The Calhoun/Massett/Bates family is fucked up!

 

Edited because as screwed up as they are, I'm pretty sure Norman's brother is not also his father. lol

Edited April 4, 2015 by Mabinogia

[peacheslatour]

O.k., thanks Preverts.  I must have missed that Norma was married twice.

[rue721]

I don't think it's physically possible that Norma would have found out that she was pregnant with Caleb's baby early enough, and decided on what action to take about it early enough, and gotten a plan in motion with Massett early enough, to have only started things with Massett because she knew she was pregnant.

 

She was only ~16 iIrc? I doubt that her cycles were so steady and she was so used to tracking them that she would have realized even within the first few weeks that she was pregnant. And Norma's big on denial, *and* she was only a kid, *and* it was a really horrible situation, so I doubt that she would have been fast to accept that she was pregnant and fast to decide on a course of action and fast to "seduce" and "trap" Massett even after deciding on a course of action. She would have had to do all that within the first month of pregnancy at the least in order to make it even sort of plausible that Dylan was his, and it just seems incredible to me that she could have done that.

 

I think that she and Massett probably had some sort of thing going (she sounds like she was a very vulnerable and lonely girl, I think it probably would have been easy for someone to seduce her), but Caleb meanwhile still wouldn't leave her alone at home. She eventually realized that she was pregnant, and when she told Massett -- maybe not with any goal in mind, or maybe even fearing that it would lead to him breaking up with her -- he asked her to marry him. She jumped at the chance of being his wife because it meant getting out of the house, and decided to keep her mouth shut about the possibility of Caleb being the father so as not to spoil things. That just seems like the likeliest scenario to me, though I hope that we eventually find out more about what actually happened.

 

When Caleb denied being Dylan's father last season, I actually believed him -- I don't think it had occurred to him that he might be Dylan's dad. Because if it had, I bet he would have used that as leverage to get Norma back under his thumb, I don't think he would have just let her go off with Massett so easily. I also doubt that Norma was able to pull these men's strings and orchestrate some real pregnancy trap for Massett, because she's not even that slick *now,* as a grown woman, and she tends to attract really kind of frightening men (who knows what Massett's story is), and at the time it was all happening she was just a teenager (and not one who sounds like she was particularly worldly or mature, it sounds like she grew up in a kind of prison).

 

Dylan told his first boss (who brought him into the drug biz), way back in S1, that he didn't speak to his father. Maybe the man is dead now, but it sounded like that wasn't why he and Norma weren't together anymore. I doubt that Dylan's anger toward Norma and referring to her as a whore was about anything she might have done to Massett, because it sounds like Dylan feels zero loyalty to him. Also, Norma and Massett must have broken up when Dylan was only 3 or 4 years old -- even if he and Dylan stayed in touch for a while after that, I doubt Dylan would remember all that much about their relationship or would have understood issues like Massett being sexually jealous or something. As bad as Dylan and Norma's relationship was when he first came to WPB, she was still who he went to, and it didn't seem to me that he even considered trying to hunt down Massett, it just didn't sound to me like Dylan and his father had a relationship at all. YMMV. I think that what he was most likely referring to in terms of Norma being a whore is that she chose Bates (Norman's father) over Dylan. That she sold Dylan out in order to stay on Bates's good side. Maybe she even told him that she needed to do what Bates wanted or take his side over Dylan's, because Bates was the one putting a roof over their heads, etc, and Dylan took that badly. But that's just a guess as to what I think is most likely, I hope that the family's history gets fleshed out more in terms of their life with Norman's father, too.

[peacheslatour]

 

Also, Norma and Massett must have broken up when Dylan was only 3 or 4 years old --

Then Norma married Bates and took Dylan live with them?  At what point did Dylan leave?  I was under the impression that Dylan was not raised by Norma. He is only 4 years older than Norman, so maybe Norma was pregnant with Norman when she left Massett for Bates and Dylan was raised by Massett?

[DittyDotDot]

My understanding is Dylan was raised by Norma, but he was always the outcast and left home young.

[DittyDotDot]

From Norma's page on the Bates Motel Wiki: http://batesmotel.wikia.com/wiki/Norma_Bates

 

About 17 years before the start of the series, Norma cheated on her then-husband, John Massett, with Sam Bates. She eventually left John to marry Sam, with whom she had Norman, and the Bates family lived in Arizona for years. Because she replaced John with Sam, she never had a good relationship with her first son, Dylan, as apparently his last words to her before the start of the series were, "Drop dead, bitch".

[peacheslatour]

From Norma's page on the Bates Motel Wiki: http://batesmotel.wikia.com/wiki/Norma_Bates

I guess what I'm trying to figure out is, who raised Dylan?  Did he grow up with the Bates' or Massett or was he possibly raised by someone else?

[DittyDotDot]

I think it was the Bates'. At one point didn't Dylan say Norma always paid more attention to Norman...implies Dylan was living with Norma, but I'm not sure it's been explicitly said either way. I got the impression in S1, Dylan hadn't had contact with his supposed father in years.

[Timetoread]

Hi guys. Because I had to know, I actually went and rewatched all the scenes that had to do with Caleb,starting with when Norma told Norman on prom night. What she said and what was shown is thus:

- The first quote was "My brother used to make me have sex with him. It started when I was like 13 years old. It went on until he moved out of the house"

- In the episode "Caleb", Caleb says "The Norma Louise I remember would get close, and let you get closer and you'd be as close as two people can be. And then suddenly you'd be out.' ... "Such a pretty little kid. Such a trusting girl.

- Later with Dylan, she states empahtically "He raped me. Over and over. Every day for years."

- Caleb did not know that Dylan was his son because Norma never told him. According to Caleb "She got married in high school. She got knocked up. That's your dad."

-Caleb didn't classify what they "had" as rape. "It wasn't like that." and also "She blames me and I blame myself."

-Norma to Dylan: "I was so scared, you have no idea. I had no one to protect me. I was a little girl. I was a kid. My father scared the crap out of me. My mother was sedated all the time. My brother would not leave me alone. I had to get away. I had no voice to tell him not to do it. I had no power to stop him. I wanted to stop him. God knows I wanted to stop him. I wanted to tell him to leave me alone. None of this is your fault but it's not my fault either. I was a child. I was way younger than your brother is now."

The rest is in the current season. They haven't given us specifics yet but ny own inference is thus:

- Caleb is at least a few years older than Norma - an age ratio that negated her ever having any level of equality with him. He was her BIG brother and in a position to force her into things.

- Caleb tells himself that it was mostly consensual and believes that the only thing wrong was that it was incest. It was incest but not rape.

-Norma calls it rape, unceasingly.

- Norma had a boyfriend in HS - my guess is that she was a very attractive teen and probably sexual enough - meaning that she did some stuff, but it has not been corroborated yet that she was promiscuous. What can be deduced is that even in that context, her brother was still raping her.

-It seemed that only in the context of her marriage did Caleb relinquish Norma.

I am fearing, based on his behavior, that Caleb consideres Norma to be the love of his life. I think he wants her back and I think he'll use Dylan as ammunition. My hope is that he is dispatched, sooner than later, by Romero. I want him - not one of the boys - to finish this errant family member. I want some distance between Norman's murders and I don't want Dylan to have to kill his own father.

[peacheslatour]

Thanks for taking one for the team Timetoread!

[DittyDotDot]

Caleb's claim that they just didn't know that incest was wrong reeks of bullshit. What American teenager in 1987 or 1988 would have had ~no idea~ that incest is taboo?

 

I was only commenting on how knowing something is taboo and still partaking might be different at 15 years old than 22. Teenagers do many things they know are considered wrong or bad all the time. At 15, you may know something is frowned upon but not think it's all that big of a deal to do it anyway, especially if your a messed up kid yourself. But at 22, well, you're an adult and there's really no way you can get away with saying you didn't understand it was wrong. 

 

If there's really a ten-year age difference between Norma and Caleb I think it changes the entire dynamic between brother and sister. It would mean Caleb was an adult (23-26 years old)--who apparently was still living at home--while Norma was a kid (13-16 years old) when the rape/incest was happening. It also makes his and Norma's assertion they were all each other had as kids not compute the same since Caleb was not a kid anymore and wasn't trapped in the same way Norma was.

 

So, based on what we've seen so far, I find it hinky that Caleb would be any more than two years older than Norma, which would mean Norma was 13-16 and Caleb would've been 15-18 at the time the rape/incest was taking place. It doesn't change that Caleb was the person in a position of power over Norma or make anything that happened more sympathetic for Caleb in my eyes, but lines up better with what they've shown us...I think anyway.

Edited April 4, 2015 by DittyDotDot