S05.E16: Conquer

[kj4ever]

But how great would it be if Morgan had said wait a minute...Jake? Jake, is that you? and the Woov said Hawkins?!

BTW

I think it would be fabulous if James Remar from Jericho

played Negan.

 

Awww.. am I the only one hoping that in the confusion and the appearance of the Tweesome Threesome, everybody forgot and Reg does turn and all hell breaks out?

Oh I want Deanna to get bit so bad!  The more I think about her the more she just ticks me off.

[kikismom]

What's the possibility the military brought them here internment - not protection - and the whole "Reg built it" bit is a simple cover story?

 

 

Ha! That would be great, but a child was able to scale the wall from the inside, so it's not really great at keeping people in, either. :)

A child who had been surviving outside up until very recently; a child who was not afraid to be in the woods with walkers. The Alexandrians, especially at the beginning, would not worry so much about the ease of getting out but what happens out there when you do.

[Nashville]

One thing I forgot to mention...when Gabriel approached the gate and said he wanted to go for a walk, is there any particular reason (other than dumbassery/contrivance) why the pretty dumbass gatekeeper didn't ask Gabriel why he couldn't just, you know, walk around the neighbourhood?

Why should he? Other than allegedly :) helping in the Wall's initial construction, there's no indication Spencer has stepped out Outside in the past year. No reason to expect it would be much different than Inside, is there? Other than Aiden's supply run "war stories", that is, and I'm certain Spencer would be unlikely to have any allusions about how big a liar Big a Brother was.

Ha! That would be great, but a child was able to scale the wall from the inside, so it's not really great at keeping people in, either. :)

Sure they can scale the walls - now.

We have no idea how recently those peg holes were drilled, though, do we...? ;)

Awww.. am I the only one hoping that in the confusion and the appearance of the Tweesome Threesome, everybody forgot and Reg does turn and all hell breaks out?

Gawd, that's exactly what I've been dreaming of. Reg turning while Deanna is still cradling his head in her lap? THAT could take their relationship to a totally unexpected and exciting new level in about two seconds.

ETA: Fixed typos

Edited April 2, 2015 by Nashville

[chlban]

No matter where the term came from, I'm pretty sure we adopted ASZ mostly because we wanted to call them Aszhats.  Who wouldn't?  

Well they have certainly lived up to the name.

[kj4ever]

A child who had been surviving outside up until very recently; a child who was not afraid to be in the woods with walkers. The Alexandrians, especially at the beginning, would not worry so much about the ease of getting out but what happens out there when you do.

Mark my words, Enid is EVIL!

[AndySmith]

A wolf in sheep's clothing?

[AngelaHunter]

Why did Maggie look so disheveled in this episode?

 

I was thinking the same thing. She looks worse than she did when they were on the road. Didn't Jessie offer her salon/styling services to any of the women? Or does she limit them to shirtless men who turn her on?

[Captain I0]

Annoying, but not as bad as Maggie's can get sometimes.

 

My problem with Maggie's is that the shapes she makes with her mouth often don't match the sounds that come out of it.

[kikismom]

I was thinking the same thing. She looks worse than she did when they were on the road. Didn't Jessie offer her salon/styling services to any of the women? Or does she limit them to shirtless men who turn her on?

Since all the ASZ women at the party seemed to have their hair done it would seem she does hair for more than shirtless men.

Deanna sent her over with the basket; maybe Dear Leader has a  private CC surveillance cam and she knew Rick took a shower.

Don't remember when it was Deanna who was the only one to remark on Rick's appearance? When she talked at the doorway about how she didn't know what was under there ? :-)

 

I think we are supposed to notice that Maggie was the very model of neat and clean assistant the other time, in her button down shirt and ponytail; something happened since then.

I blame Father PP.

[Seawolff]

My longest-running problem with TWD has always been the dialogue. This is not how real people talk. The writers think they're being profound and capturing an older way of speaking that used to be more common in the south, but it just doesn't work. That meeting at the end was so damn frustrating because...no one talks like that. No one communicates in so many half sentences that are as vague as possible. "The things we've seen....terrible things....things you haven't seen..." Jesus. EXPLAIN. Tell them very specifically about the things, about Terminus and the Governor, tell them about how Grady operated, tell them about the biker gang that almost raped Carl. Tell them how Lori had to have her baby cut out of her and Carl had to put her down. Tell them about Noah's community and the Unfair Wolves. Tell them about how everyone is already infected. Use your words.

I think there is a twofold reason for this...

 

1.  As time has went on, characters are less likely to talk about their experiences because it's too painful and where does one begin considering everything that's happened to them. 

 

2.  Since we the audience have already seen everything happen, it would be redundant from a series reason to rehash earlier experiences to any great length.

 

But, perhaps, a small explanation would have helped.

Coming in late, but had to read everything before posting!

I agree with both idea 1 and 2.

I also think it is very realistic that actual moral people such as Rick and Co would be appalled and ashamed at the details of what had happened to them and numbed by what they had had to do. As such they would be afraid and/or wary of being pre- judged and given a stigma by the people of Alexandria. Many survivors of assault don't tell the story because they are so humiliated by it. It's all so very soon and very raw. Michonne did not tell her story right away to anyone and they are all season 3 Michonne right now. (Except Michonne!)

The Alexandrians know it's "horrifically bad" out there. Their version of horrific might not hold a candle to the actual horrors out there, but why share the details (open their hearts) with them when you have just arrived and have no way of knowing whether there isn't some cannibal/claimer/governor hiding behind a friendly facade?

[AngelaHunter]

I blame Father PP.

 

I'm there. At this point I'd be willing to blame the ZA on him.

[AndySmith]

I'm sure there are many people who blame him for many things.

[Nashville]

I think we are supposed to notice that Maggie was the very model of neat and clean assistant the other time, in her button down shirt and ponytail; something happened since then.

Consciously or not, I think we're seeing Maggie kinda pulling a Carol - trying to appear as unthreatening and "civilized" as possible - although for different reasons.

Maggie truly wants to fit in with the ASZhats.

Of course, they have NO idea what this somewhat washed-out-looking woman can do with a traffic sign - do they now? :>

I blame Father PP.

I totally agree!

Er - what are we blaming him for this time?

Ahhh, never mind. Doesn't really matter, does it?

Edited April 2, 2015 by Nashville

[kj4ever]

Global warming is also totally FPP's fault.

[NurseGiGi]

Okay, let me see if I'm getting this straight.  There's no

Unfair Wolves (I love that name) in the comics?  And there was no Grady story in the comics?  And now I can't blame Kirkman???

So who's to blame because I bet the same person came up with both of these nonsensical story lines.

Edited April 4, 2015 by HalcyonDays
Tagged comic spoilers

[morgankobi]

Okay, let me see if I'm getting this straight.  There's no

Unfair Wolves (I love that name) in the comics?  And there was no Grady story in the comics?  And now I can't blame Kirkman???

So who's to blame because I bet the same person came up with both of these nonsensical story lines.

 

All together now: FPP!

Edited April 4, 2015 by HalcyonDays
Tagged comic spoilers

[Nashville]

Global warming is also totally FPP's fault.

Well, he is about the biggest jacked-up gasbag of overheated air we've encountered thus far in the ZA....

[AngelaHunter]

Well, he is about the biggest jacked-up gasbag of overheated air we've encountered thus far in the ZA....

 

Never mind all the crying and sweating. It must be increasing the humidity levels in the vicinity.

[TexasChic]

With Daryl and Aaron in the car, I remembered how Aaron got all fussy about the applesauce---at the worst possible time. I could see Daryl saying Just let me finish this last cigarette and then I will sacrifice my life to let you escape alive and Aaron would say Eeuuuw! Second-hand smoke! Don't get that nasty smell on my Eddie Bauer barn coat! Yuk! Don't you know that smoking is going to ruin your health?

As an ex-smoker, I was reminded of the time I decided to smoke a cigarette while going through the car wash. It got really, really smoky in there. So all I could think was, "Really? He's going to smoke that with the windows rolled up?"

[Nashville]

As an ex-smoker, I was reminded of the time I decided to smoke a cigarette while going through the car wash. It got really, really smoky in there. So all I could think was, "Really? He's going to smoke that with the windows rolled up?"

 

Like what - he's going to worry about the smell sticking to his clothes? 

I'm sure the MAN-EATING ZOMBIES won't mind - not too much, anyway.

 

  :D

[morgankobi]

Maybe the zombies are like Oblivia. They like smoked meat.

Edited April 3, 2015 by morgankobi

[TexasChic]

Like what - he's going to worry about the smell sticking to his clothes? 

I'm sure the MAN-EATING ZOMBIES won't mind - not too much, anyway.

 

  :D

It's not the stink, it's the lack of breathable oxygen! Even as a dedicated smoker, I had to put that sucker out!

Of course as an ex-smoker, I'm (ironically) wildly intolerant of cigarette smoke, so the thought of sitting in a smoke filled car makes me feel like I'm suffocating. 

Edited April 3, 2015 by TexasChic

[TexasChic]

Luckily I'm still a drinker. A girl's gotta have SOME vices!

[Raven1707]

Egads! It took me all this time to catch up with the thread!

 

Remember AirheadWolf's statement to Red Poncho immediately after slitting his throat: "Welcome home."

I believe (a) the Woofs see themselves and other surviving humans as sort of bastardized reincarnations-in-transition of the original wolves, and (b) turning is the final phase of that transition.

ETA: Was it "welcome home" or welcome BACK home"? Either still fits the hypothesis, but I hate being inaccurate.

Red Poncho Man: Please don’t.
First man: Shh...
Red Poncho Man: No.
First man: They’ll hear you. It’ll take longer to reset it. Just be still. Just be still. (Slits Red Poncho Man’s throat) Welcome home.

 

(For the record, Red Poncho Man is how the character is identified in the credits)

 

In Maggie and Glenn's goodbye fake-out scene, Maggie said she was going to go around talking to everyone about Rick, did Glenn mention what he was going to be doing?

 

Nope.

 

Glenn: You met with her?
Maggie: Yeah.
Glenn: So what is it?
Maggie: It’s what we thought. I’m gonna talk to people. I’ll talk to everyone I can right up until. I’m gonna try to solve this. (Glenn says nothing) What? (Glenn doesn’t answer, and she sits next to him) What?
Glenn: (he puts his hand on her knee) I love you.
Maggie: (smiles) We’re gonna work it out. (Glenn nods) I know it. I’ll see you there.
Glenn: Yeah.

 

And I have to say a hearty 'fuck off' to Daryl when they were discussing the danger of the Wolves. I had hoped that once they encountered that poor woman tied to the tree, they'd go back to ASZ to at least warn them. Instead they carried on, driving aimlessly looking for people? WTF? Aaron was all "there are bad people out here" and Daryl was more interested in gathering more people rather than going home to warn HIS FAMILY that there are crazy, murderous, violent psychopaths just outside their door??

 

Well, to be fair, Daryl knows his family can handle pretty much whatever comes their way.

[Anela]

Why did Maggie look so disheveled in this episode? She looked like she was wearing a bad wig (her own hair is thin and fine and shiny) and she had on drab bulky clothing. Very different appearance from the last time we saw her.

Norman Reedus said that it was really cold, when they were filming. There have been comments on her more revealing tops in the past, so maybe they tried to tone it down a bit.

[Nashville]

Egads! It took me all this time to catch up with the thread!

 

Red Poncho Man: Please don’t.

First man: Shh...

Red Poncho Man: No.

First man: They’ll hear you. It’ll take longer to reset it. Just be still. Just be still. (Slits Red Poncho Man’s throat) Welcome home.

 

(For the record, Red Poncho Man is how the character is identified in the credits)

 

Gracias!  That was bugging me.

[GreyBunny]

I'm sure there are many people who blame him for many things.

 

The burning of the ancient library in Alexandria?  Totally FPP.  Lord Fluffington told me so.

[kikismom]

The burning of the ancient library in Alexandria?  Totally FPP.  Lord Fluffington told me so.

Father PP is why the Ancient Egyptians couldn't have nice things.

[maystone]

The burning of the ancient library in Alexandria?

 

When we were first shown Deanna's office/living room, the overflowing bookshelves immediately caught my eye. The Library of Alexandria. Ah, very clever, show :)

 

On a more somber note, twice during Conquer my mind flashed to Schindler's List. The first was when Sasha laid herself in the open pit filled with bodies, and there was a single violin providing the background music. Immediate flash on my part to pictures from the Holocaust and the Itzahk Perlman violin solo from the movie soundtrack. I was shocked. It wasn't offensive or inappropriate, it was just shocking to me, and I connected to TWD suddenly as portraying an extinction event. It was an intense image for me, obviously. 

 

The other was the use of The Red Poncho Man. For those not familiar with Schindler's List, it was filmed in black and white, but during a sequence about the Nazis rounding up Jews from the Warsaw Ghetto, Spielberg focused on a little girl in a red coat. That little smidge of color was heartbreakingly easy to follow through the purge and its aftermath. Again, TRPM flipped a switch in my brain that sent me back to the movie. And because of that I did feel something when he was captured and killed. A couple of posters here have speculated that we'll see him again in a herd moving on Alexandria, and I tend to agree with them. It's not like the show hasn't done this particular setup before (the woman Rick killed in the woods outside the prison was among the horde that swarmed in after the prison fell), but this one is going to touch me more. I think he's supposed to be more of a Little Red Riding Hood reference, what with the Woofs and all, but Spielberg got there first :)

[ghoulina]

Clearly they didn't want to put braces on the inside since it would allow people to shimmy up and leave. :D

 

Lol, I tend to think they didn't want to put them on the inside because it would be an ugly reminder of what the walls are for. 

 

I'm there. At this point I'd be willing to blame the ZA on him.

 

FPP - The El Nino of the apocalypse. 

 

Norman Reedus said that it was really cold, when they were filming. There have been comments on her more revealing tops in the past, so maybe they tried to tone it down a bit.

 

This makes sense. You can always tell the season is winding down, because suddenly everyone has long sleeves and jackets. To us, they've been on the screen for just a few days, but they've been filming for months, I reckon. I just handwave the sudden change from summer to fall, along with sudden changes from day to night. 

 

Maybe something in the zombie virus affects the climate? 

[morgankobi]

Side note, in Night, by Elie Weisel, the last time he sees his young sister she has her red coat.

[maystone]

.Note to self: when things start looking dicey, avoid wearing red. "And I won't get any older now the Woofies wanna wear my red shoes."

[Nashville]

Red Poncho!

I know the Wolves are killing you.

Red Poncho!

Sasha's aim is true.

(Sorry, Elvis)

ETA: Artistic integrity

(Yeah, right)

Edited April 3, 2015 by Nashville

[AngelaHunter]

What this show has reminded me of for quite some time now is "The Grapes of Wrath."

[JBody]

When we were first shown Deanna's office/living room, the overflowing bookshelves immediately caught my eye. The Library of Alexandria. Ah, very clever, show :)

On a more somber note, twice during Conquer my mind flashed to Schindler's List. The first was when Sasha laid herself in the open pit filled with bodies, and there was a single violin providing the background music. Immediate flash on my part to pictures from the Holocaust and the Itzahk Perlman violin solo from the movie soundtrack. I was shocked. It wasn't offensive or inappropriate, it was just shocking to me, and I connected to TWD suddenly as portraying an extinction event. It was an intense image for me, obviously.

The other was the use of The Red Poncho Man. For those not familiar with Schindler's List, it was filmed in black and white, but during a sequence about the Nazis rounding up Jews from the Warsaw Ghetto, Spielberg focused on a little girl in a red coat. That little smidge of color was heartbreakingly easy to follow through the purge and its aftermath. Again, TRPM flipped a switch in my brain that sent me back to the movie. And because of that I did feel something when he was captured and killed. A couple of posters here have speculated that we'll see him again in a herd moving on Alexandria, and I tend to agree with them. It's not like the show hasn't done this particular setup before (the woman Rick killed in the woods outside the prison was among the horde that swarmed in after the prison fell), but this one is going to touch me more. I think he's supposed to be more of a Little Red Riding Hood reference, what with the Woofs and all, but Spielberg got there first :)

Extinction event, eh? Well that's what Dr. Jenner said! Of course CDB don't remember that episode.

I thought Sasha's little lie down with the zombies was oddly moving. She feels more at home with them than the ASZhats (like when Rick was feeling up the wall with his little smile for the zeds). Sasha looked peaceful. But it is depressing as hell and kind of horrifying when you think about it.

[Iguessnot]

He said, "Noah died because of you!"

 

I have to admit I'm a bit surprised there's even doubt as to whom Rick killed. I thought it was pretty obvious he turned and killed Pete on Deanna's command.

That commanding tone of voice is not how she would have dispatched her husband who she was cradling. That was a simple and direct execution order for her husband's murderer.

[Zanne]

In Maggie and Glenn's goodbye fake-out scene, Maggie said she was going to go around talking to everyone about Rick, did Glenn mention what he was going to be doing?

 

He was busy making sure the porch didn't go anywhere.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

When in doubt; blame FPP.  Great idea for a shirt.

 

FPP = the Trojan Horse to gated communities.

[ladyrott]

I am kind of hoping we come back to Rick putting a bullet in Reg's head and everyone freaking out while CDB tries to explain that everyone has the damn virus inside them and WILL turn when they die.  I don't think that info is public knowledge and I can see Deanna going OFF when hubby gets a bullet to the head. 

[CletusMusashi]

Hard to believe they don't know yet about people turning. That would imply that no one in Alexandria has ever died under the care of Pickled Pete.

[kikismom]

The burning of the ancient library in Alexandria?  Totally FPP.  Lord Fluffington told me so.

Maybe if the Wolves come, they can call the episode The Un-Pharos At Alexandria.

Hard to believe they don't know yet about people turning. That would imply that no one in Alexandria has ever died under the care of Pickled Pete.

Or maybe they have---but Pete went to Gordon Ramsey Medical School: You have to eat your mistakes!

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

The ultimate deleted/unused scene has to be out there somewhere.

 

The juxtaposition of sane and wise Morgan walking into a place where a bloody-faced insane looking Rick has just blew a 'defenseless' man away.

 

The missing part is Rick saying "(its) Clear!" loudly, just after giving Porch Dick a permanent case of ED.

Edited April 4, 2015 by iRarelyWatchTV36

[Raven1707]

After watching "Conquer" twice last night -- thanks AMC! -- I had a few final thoughts/observations:

 

• Morgan!
• At the risk of repeating myself, Morgan! There is such an economy of movement in Lennie James's performances, it's a joy to watch. Ironic perhaps that Wolf #1 kept telling him to "Just be still."
• Daryl is wearing the same raggedy-ass pants he's worn since Season 1. No doubt wardrobe has several pairs which have been identically stressed, torn, and patched, but they're basically the same. Photo proof of this is available at AMC; I looked through the still photo shots from every season, and would be glad to list them. (It's a very long list!)
• Daryl is also wearing the same style of shoes that he's worn since Season 1. (They look like boat shoes to me, but I've also seen a work boot that appears similar.) There was no Aaron Fashion Intervention. (This is also a long list.)
• Rick running! One of my absolute favorite things ever!
• It was Rick's duty belt that some people might have mistaken for him wearing the gun Carol had given him when he walked past Tobin, Bruce, and that other guy. Photos are also available at AMC, including this one from Season 5: http://blogs.amctv.com/the-walking-dead/photo-galleries/the-walking-dead-season-5-episode-photos/#/36

• Morgan!

Edited April 4, 2015 by Raven1707

[AngelaHunter]

Thanks, Raven1707. Those pictures are amazing. Even the action ones, like Rick and Pete flying through the window, are wonderful in their clarity and sharpness.

 

I guess whoever was labelling them wasn't paying close attention:

 

http://i.imgur.com/3lxF47w.jpg

 

Oh, well. Didn't lessen my enjoyment.

 

 

[Nashville]

Thanks, Raven1707. Those pictures are amazing. Even the action ones, like Rick and Pete flying through the window, are wonderful in their clarity and sharpness.

 

I guess whoever was labelling them wasn't paying close attention:

 

http://i.imgur.com/3lxF47w.jpg

 

Oh, well. Didn't lessen my enjoyment.

 

I can't decide if Abraham looks like shit, or if the looks a lot better than usual.

 

Both, maybe?

[Watcher0363]

And I have to say a hearty 'fuck off' to Daryl when they were discussing the danger of the Wolves. I had hoped that once they encountered that poor woman tied to the tree, they'd go back to ASZ to at least warn them. Instead they carried on, driving aimlessly looking for people? WTF? Aaron was all "there are bad people out here" and Daryl was more interested in gathering more people rather than going home to warn HIS FAMILY that there are crazy, murderous, violent psychopaths just outside their door??

As opposed to the Crazy, if not murderous, definitely killerous violent sociopaths just inside their door? Rick and Carol, Carol and Rick.

 

What this show has reminded me of for quite some time now is "The Grapes of Wrath."

I have seen "The Grapes of Wrath" and I have read the "The Grapes of Wrath." Rick Grimes is Tom Joad.

 

Ma Joad: Tommy, you're not aimin' to kill nobody.

 

Tom Joad: No, Ma, not that. That ain't it. It's just, well as long as I'm an outlaw anyways... maybe I can do somethin'... maybe I can just find out somethin', just scrounge around and maybe find out what it is that's wrong and see if they ain't somethin' that can be done about it. I ain't thought it out all clear, Ma. I can't. I don't know enough.

 

Ma Deanna: Rick, you're not aimin' to kill nobody. (Paraphrasing here)

 

Rick Grimes: You still don’t get it, none of you do. We know what needs to be done. We do it. We’re the ones who live.

You – you just sit and plan and hesitate. And pretend like you know, but you don’t. We wish things weren’t what they are. You want to live? You want this place to stay standing? Your way of doing this is done.

Things don’t get better because you want them to. Starting right now, we have to live in the real world.

 

Your way is going to destroy this place, get people killed. It’s already gotten people killed. I’m not going to stand by and just let it happen. If you don’t fight, you die.

I’m not just going to stand by…

 

Ma Joad: How am I gonna know about ya, Tommy? Why they could kill ya and I'd never know. They could hurt ya. How am I gonna know?

 

Tom Joad: Then it don't matter. I'll be all around in the dark - I'll be everywhere. Wherever you can look - wherever there's a fight, so hungry people can eat, I'll be there. Wherever there's a cop beatin' up a guy, I'll be there. I'll be in the way guys yell when they're mad. I'll be in the way kids laugh when they're hungry and they know supper's ready, and when the people are eatin' the stuff they raise and livin' in the houses they build - I'll be there, too.

 

Ma Deanna: Rick, you're not aimin' to kill nobody. (Paraphrasing here)

 

Rick Grimes: The ones out there, they’ll hunt us, They’ll find us. They’ll try to use us. They’ll try to kill us. We’ll kill them. We’ll survive. I’ll show you how. I was thinking, how many of you do I have to kill to save your lives. But I’m not gonna do that. You’re gonna change.

Edited April 5, 2015 by Watcher0363

[AngelaHunter]

I have seen "The Grapes of Wrath" and I have read the "The Grapes of Wrath." Rick Grimes is Tom Joad.

 

Very nice dialogue comparison! I haven't read the book in many years, and I'm really not comparing the incomparable Steinbeck to Kirkman (would I do that??) but it's just the situation that makes me link the two stories - the endless trying, clawing and struggling when that cloud has no silver lining.

 

I can't decide if Abraham looks like shit, or if the looks a lot better than usual.

 

He certainly let his grooming slide.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

I guess whoever was labelling them wasn't paying close attention:

 

http://i.imgur.com/3lxF47w.jpg

 

"They made me change my head & body hair color, grow more facial hair while growing out the hair on my head, and made me lose weight!  You're GD'd right I'm F'ing PO'd!!!  Now I'm wondering how many of you pathetic SOB's, that don't know shit about shit, I'm gonna have to kill to sate this RAMPAGE!!"

[Raven1707]

Thanks, Raven1707. Those pictures are amazing. Even the action ones, like Rick and Pete flying through the window, are wonderful in their clarity and sharpness.

 

My favorite from among the Season 5 shots:

 

http://blogs.amctv.com/the-walking-dead/photo-galleries/the-walking-dead-season-5-episode-photos/#/162

 

ETA: It just occurred to me that -- having been pointing an empty handgun at Morgan -- Wolf #1 might have assumed that Morgan's automatic rifle was also out of ammunition, and that's why he didn't grab for it after Morgan knocked him down. Knives are pretty much always loaded.

Edited April 5, 2015 by Raven1707

[Raven1707]

And once again, Sundays have reverted to being just another day of the week.