S10.E19: Beyond Borders

[Danielg342]

I am not sure why people are calling the new guys Mary Sues. 2 or 3 already have back stories/personalies which isn't bad for a backdoor pilot. There was Anna Gunn's brother who looks to be in a foreign prison due to mostly American stupidity. The main guy who I know from CSI NY has a well formed family which is unusual for these kinds of shows and a cop son. Then there is the Analayst guy who does JJ/Garcia duty which makes sense because he is usually the only one stateside....he draws. I think there is another team member who used to be in the military. So maybe not extremely well drawn out but not Mary Sue bad either.

My vantage point is simple: it doesn't matter that International Unit members all have character traits and backstories- the fact of the matter is that none of them were presented with traits that so much as hint that they have personal struggles that they need to overcome (aside from Monty and the limp, but he's not in the field so that may not matter much). Central to any story is conflict, and characters themselves are a story all by themselves- thus, they need something that keeps them grounded and becomes an obstacle that they (and their teammates) need to overcome. Otherwise, what's the appeal of the story? If things come too easy for them, it becomes boring, plus characters with flaws are much more relatable because we've all got flaws. I know it's still the beginning and there's a lot of chances for growth, but so far, what's presented is that none of them seem to have any real issues.

I'm not asking for much- this ain't a Shakespearean tragedy, despite Erica Messer's best efforts it seems. All the characters needed were stuff like a stubborn streak, impulsivity, intense attention to detail, too much compassion, a pizza addiction, etc., that would, at the very least, imply that at some later point they'll arrive at an issue beyond their capabilities and require help. That's one way to create conflict in a story, organically, and, frankly, the best way to do it because it's realistic. Not only that, but why settle on having a team if its members don't have faults the other teammates need to account for?

Probably the worst part was all the fawning by the original BAU members- Morgan towards Simmons, Rossi towards Garrett, and Garcia towards Monty. It's like the characters were all put on a pedestal, with the original characters reduced to “mere mortals” worshiping their “new gods”, as if the International Unit represented people they could never hope to be. It sounds like stuff ripped from bad fanfiction, and while it's not always an indicator of a “Mary Sue”, it's icing on the cake. It's one thing if the characters are flawless, it's another if other characters revel in that flawlessless. Nothing drives the point home more that the characters are “perfect” than this very fact- at least if other characters held the seemingly flawless ones in contempt you could at least infer that the flawless ones indeed do have a flaw and that's arrogance (ETA- or obliviousness).

That's what makes these characters “Mary Sues”- we saw them do no wrong, we didn't see them have any faults and the original characters were reduced to little more than minions bowing down to their new masters. It's like Messer wrote obvious fanfiction and passed it on to CBS for an episode.

Which means...hey, CBS, if you're going to start using fanfics for your episodes, come here to these forums. You'll have no shortage of material to draw from to create fantastic episodes, ones I would say are much better than the ones you actually are passing on to us.

Edited April 10, 2015 by Danielg342

[Old Dog]

Well said Danielg342! That's spot on how I feel. I hated that our CM team seemed to worship the ground the new team walked on. Humans are flawed and these agents don't seem to have any.

[Bookish Jen]

Well said Danielg342! That's spot on how I feel. I hated that our CM team seemed to worship the ground the new team walked on. Humans are flawed and these agents don't seem to have any.

Exactly! I half expected our CM team to become all Wayne and Garth and say, "We're not worthy! We're not worthy."

 

However, I did like seeing Reid in his smoky gray suit. And the beautiful blue waters of Barbados was a lovely sight on a cold, damp and overcast April here in Milwaukee.

[Old Dog]

Reid did look super scrummy even though we saw far too little of him! But I doubt the waters we saw were anywhere near Barbados - somewhere on the Californian coast for sure. It did look the part though.

[ForeverAlone]

It was funny to go on to Facebook and read the comments. A bunch of them were (not) surprisingly rather stupid in that they seemed to have no clue that this episode was a backdoor pilot for a spinoff. It's like, they like Criminal Minds enough to like the page on Facebook and seemingly see all the posts, but they fail to realize that this was a spinoff pilot they have been talking about for months?

In any case, I also saw a fair amount of comments from people from Barbados and they were NOT pleased about how unrealistically they and their island was portrayed and were upset about the lack of proper research done for the setting of this episode.

[Bookish Jen]

I did think Anna Gunn's line delivery was a bit off in some scenes, and I admit I was a bit jarred at how much he resembled JJ. I'm not going to hold that against her though. I think its normal for there to be some rough edges in a pilot/backdoor pilot. Things may change in the series depending on how people respond to this episode.

 

I agree that it was not good for Monty to make those promises. I didn't really find any of them robotic, but maybe its all a matter of perception. Maybe my fondness of Gary Sinese as Lt Dan is influencing my thoughts on him. Likewise with Simmons. I spent a long time in Southeast Asia and there was something familiar about Simmons that I can't put my finger on. 

 

I totally forgot to mention the ending with the grandparents hugging everyone. I thought that was sweet. I'm not sure, but I think the grandfather may have hugged Reid twice, but I can't remember.

 

I just wish that they had managed to squeeze personality out of everyone that was shown. That doesn't even have to take up more screentime-- it can be done with gestures, facial expressions, and maybe even just short lines. I remember in season 5 how it spoke volumes (to me) about Prentiss being nurturing when she did something simple like set up Reid's crutches for him (to make it easier for him to get up) in the background.

 

My concern is that anyone who watched the show for the first time tonight would not know that Kate and Reid are main characters, would not know that Reid is a genius or that Kate is pregnant. And, I'm shocked to say this, but for once they forgot to mention that JJ is a mother-- at a time when it actually would have been ok/appropriate for her to mention it! All it needed was one line of "I have my hands full with one!" and not even having her say the word "mother".

 

I also forgot to comment on the speculation of Gubler peeing in Messer's Wheaties... LOL. I don't think that she (or any of the cast/crew) have anything against him. I think its more that she can't relate to the beta male genius type character and doesn't know how to write for him. Granted, I think that they all think Gubler is incredibly weird (something of which he's proud) and there may be a problem separating weird silly Gubler from Reid when they write for him. I also suspect that Messer doesn't find Reid all that interesting. I used to think she just absolutely hated or at least disliked Reid and maybe had something against Matthew, but now I think its just lack of ideas and knowledge. She doesn't understand the genius mind and can't write for one. She also seems to lack the sort of planning and thoroughness that Ed seemed to have. Since she can't come up with ideas for Reid and do justice to his dialog, she needs to have someone else (maybe Sharon) help her-- but maybe there's an ego thing and she doesn't want to do that, or maybe she just is so disinterested in Reid that she doesn't want to try. I really don't know. I just know that her episodes don't utilize him well. One of her biggest mistakes is that she seems to equate memorization/fact spouting with intelligence. I've known people who are not all that bright who can memorize whole passages of text verbatim, but if you were to ask them to put it in their own words they couldn't do it because they don't have the comprehension to go along with it. I've said it before and I'll say it again: Genius involves the ability to comprehend, evaluate, decipher, and solve. 

It’s a shame Messer doesn’t find Reid interesting because a lot of us do, and maybe one day I’ll write some missive on why I find Reid such a compelling character. Yes, I can be shallow. When I first saw Matthew emoting as Reid, I thought, “Ooh, who is that? He’s very handsome!” Yes, Matthew definitely won the looks lottery, but looks keep my interest for only so long.

 

And as you mention, Gubler is proudly weird-one of the reasons why I like him. But people tend to be multi-faceted, and under all the quirks and strangeness, is probably someone who is a fairly complex and thoughtful person and is able to bring this this to his portrayal of Reid. Matthew may not have a genius IQ but I do think he’s rather bright. If he was a totally dummy, his portrayal of Reid would come across as false.

 

So if Messer is just blech when it comes to writing for Reid, then get someone who is. Or hire some of us to act as consultants or something.

 

And good point bringing up Matthew directing gig. I’m sure it’s very consuming, can’t wait to see his episode.

 

Back on topic: Oops. Yep, This episode was probably filmed along the CA coast, not Barbados , which might cost a lot more money. Still pretty though.

 

And very interesting how the people of Barbardos were not pleased on how everything was portrayed. Research, people, research. It’s not that difficult.

 

Oh, and I’m really getting sick and tired of the tired trope that evil people were abused as kids. Plenty of abused children who grow up to be wonderful adults. And there are people who had idyllic childhoods who grow up to be truly awful. Let’s try exploring that, okay?

 

And because my insomnia and allergies are making me stabby, Reid’s drawings a million times cooler than Monty’s. So there.

[candall]

WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE?!

 

Then someone handed me a complimentary bottle of water (with a broken seal) and I didn't care anymozzzzzzzzzzzzz

 

For me, the only notable bit in the whole production was Thomas Gibson trying to look hardcore and focused on Anna Gunn's complicated backstory while dodging sideways through the crowd of extras.  Heee.  Stand back and give the star some elbow room, folks.

 

I had to google Anna Gunn.  Oh.  Fanning the embers of Breaking Bad.  Well, for the uninitiated, she seemed pretty wooden, with two basic expressions--wide-eyed and less wide-eyed.  Sorry.

 

*************

P.S.  I'm sad that Tom Everett Scott has become grey and stolid without filling the "affable young man" roles Tom Hanks left behind.

[portia7]

I'M done. No more children getting belted.

[Danielg342]

I'M done. No more children getting belted.

 

Did we actually see that happening? I don't think anyone other than the father was actually seen to be struck by the belt...although in flashbacks they did allude to it in the UnSub and I think the daughter got rapped once...but I'm not sure.

[Calamity Jane]

Since it's an entire family, I wonder if they'll base it on the recent missing persons' case that was solved in California, the McStay family.  They were found dead in the desert.  There were rumors for years that they had walked away into Mexico, or that the children had been kidnapped and taken into Mexico.   The father's brother knew all along that his brother would never leave that way, but everyone else kept saying they had left of their own accord. Rumors about drugs and their supposed hippy lifestyle and all that were blamed.  But it was obvious from the way the crime scene was left (interrupted at mealtime with things left out) that the family had been abducted against their will.  It turned out it was the business partner of the father who was responsible for the family's deaths.   

The family was found right off the road I take when I want to go north on the 15.  Gave me the creeps!!  And a colleague's husband represented the man arrested in the case, but the guy decided to represent himself a few months later.  So it all feels very close. 

It is a backdoor pilot. Also, infer what you will from it, but on The Blacklist it was mentioned that, internationally, the FBI holds jurisdiction in American matters.

When we lived in Paris in the 60s, the dad of one of my schoolmates was "the" FBI agent assigned there (don't know if there were others, we just knew of this one).  We never could figure it out, but it's definitely a thing.

[Lebanna]

Interesting that Barbadians didn't enjoy this episode much. I always felt like that would be the big issue with the spin-off - that unless they actually do some research (like that would ever happen) they'll seriously jeopardize their international sales. Even getting minor points of culture, accents or street names wrong will have plenty people up in arms.

I mean, it'll be funny to watch them piss off the population of a whole new country every week. Not so great if they actually want viewers outside the US, though.

[zannej]

Bookish Jen, I think you have a good point about people who are abused and how they turn out. I have a few friends who were abused as children, have substance abusing parents, and they are good people who don't do drugs and try to live good lives. I also know some people who were abused who are not murderers but who have anger problems and poor judgement. 

 

We really did not need to see the unsub being abused as a child nor did we need to see him beating the father with the belt. For one, it seems like no marks were even left and it was poorly done. But we don't need to see the violence. 

 

Lebanna, I agree with you about the writers needing to do research. I really can't help but get the feeling that there is a lack of fucks given about details by some members of the crew. I think that one of the potential problems the spinoff will face is whether or not they will get the details right when showing representations of other countries. Unless the showrunner and writers make sure that they do accurate research and really have attention to detail to try to make it as accurate as possible, they are probably going to end up pissing off a lot of people. That may end up being the downfall of the show.

[Oscirus]

Central to any story is conflict, and characters themselves are a story all by themselves- thus, they need something that keeps them grounded and becomes an obstacle that they (and their teammates) need to overcome. Otherwise, what's the appeal of the story? If things come too easy for them, it becomes boring, plus characters with flaws are much more relatable because we've all got flaws. I know it's still the beginning and there's a lot of chances for growth, but so far, what's presented is that none of them seem to have any real issues.

 

To be fair, there are time constrictions. There was time to introduce each character, demonstrate their specialty and then integrate them into the case of the week. I think basically, the character issues will evolve once they get their own series. 

 

Probably the worst part was all the fawning by the original BAU members

 

 

I understood what they were going for there and I tolerated most of it. My only problem was when Penelope "OMG, so much work, please tell me Monty's going to be helping me?" My first thought is" why in the hell would you need assistance on a regular case when you handle these cases by yourself all the time? That came off as trying too hard.

 

Hopefully they have Monty-Lily develop a level of communication on the same wavelength as Derrick-Penelope so My fanfic of young Chris Rock and Skylar White can come to life.

[MelinaBallerina]

I finally watched this one and I guess I will give the spin off a chance.  It already looks ton better than the other one with Whitaker.  

 

The little thing that really caught my attention was Kate.  This is the first time she hasn't had those huge grey circles under her eyes.  She looked much healthier!

[LetItStop]

The BSU team already handled a case in Mexico. International team = yawwwwwn. Show is utter pants of late.

[Lebanna]

Good point about Mexico. I forgot that.

Having actually watched this... things I liked -

The Terry Pratchett memorial quote at the beginning. Wise, clever man.

Beautiful beaches.

Lieutenant Dan.

Useful ideas on how to protect yourself abroad. Mostly not paranoid, just sensible. People do let their guard down on vacation, sometimes unreasonably.

The happy ending. And that it didn't profoundly suck as much as I expected.

Things I didn't like -

Monty-Stu. He's a computer genius! And sensitive, compassionate and great with people! And an artist! And beloved by all who lay eyes on him! But oh no, wait, he has a bad leg. So he's not perfection incarnate. Or maybe that just makes him stronger and more wonderful? Wow, I just can't tell.

Missed opportunity for a scene with Reid looking confused about finding himself accidentally on a beach. How could they pass that up?

As somebody said, disappointing that they went to somewhere not incredibly different from the U.S. and didn't really interact with any non-U.S. citizens. Even the Dutch unsub remembered his entire childhood as completely American. It seems like they felt too much culture shock might put people off. I hope this doesn't mean that everywhere they visit will be basically 'The U.S. but with more bubble tea! The U.S. but with more frogs legs!'.

Also it was blatant that they weren't on location. When they inevitably get picked up, can they at least get the budget to throw the cast on a plane for a weekend for some establishing shots? Or can they make California double for a convincing Russia or Egypt? I hope so. Otherwise, they'll have a very old fashioned, uncool feeling show. Or maybe just spend all their time indoors or outside in the dark, interspersed with library footage, but that's no fun.

My personal bugbear! Expats? Really, Lieutenant Dan? Who work illegally and don't report their presence to the authorities? Yeah, just because they're white Americans does not stop them being illegal migrant workers. I'm a legal immigrant (sadly not to Barbados!) and proud of it, but I get and am totally sympathetic to the necessity that many have of moving sometimes for money, for a better life, out of desperation. But if you move country illegally, pay no tax and have no right to be there then Expat, my ass.

Was that another Lily Kershaw song at the end?

[Bookish Jen]

Bookish Jen, I think you have a good point about people who are abused and how they turn out. I have a few friends who were abused as children, have substance abusing parents, and they are good people who don't do drugs and try to live good lives. I also know some people who were abused who are not murderers but who have anger problems and poor judgement. 

 

We really did not need to see the unsub being abused as a child nor did we need to see him beating the father with the belt. For one, it seems like no marks were even left and it was poorly done. But we don't need to see the violence. 

 

Lebanna, I agree with you about the writers needing to do research. I really can't help but get the feeling that there is a lack of fucks given about details by some members of the crew. I think that one of the potential problems the spinoff will face is whether or not they will get the details right when showing representations of other countries. Unless the showrunner and writers make sure that they do accurate research and really have attention to detail to try to make it as accurate as possible, they are probably going to end up pissing off a lot of people. That may end up being the downfall of the show.

 

Thanks. The unsub was abused as a child theme has been done to death (pardon the pun) on CM and other assorted crime procedurals. Not only is it completely unoriginal it is also insulting to countless people who were abused as children who are now caring, loving, decent contributing members of society. I was severely bullied as a child, and ten years ago I was the victim of a brutal assault, which, oddly enough, has an eerie, somewhat jarring connection to CM. (I’ll share that story another time). Due to both the bullying and assault, I’m currently dealing with issues of depression, insecurity and PTSD. I’m flawed as any other human being, but I’m hardly an unsub.

 

If CM want to focus on how child abuse can affect children, they might want to learn about Michael and Debi Pearl who wrote the book “To Train Up a Child.”  This book pretty much advocates the severe use of corporal punishment, even encouraging parents to beat children as young as 18 months. The Pearls and their odious books are very popular with the religious right, Quiverfull crowd (the Duggars are Pearl proponents). I think CM powers that be could create a very powerful episode exploring people like the Pearls if they could tap into the creative parts of their collective brain power.

 

On-topic: Perfect profile of Monty-Stu (awesome nickname), Lebanna. I bow in your presence.

Edited April 10, 2015 by Bookish Jen

[normasm]

Great post, Lebanna. I did think they botched the Terry Pratchett quote, which they have used before in another season, and correctly...

 

BTW, I missed the limp for Monty-Stu: just makes him so much more SPECIAL, doesn't it? And they borrowed that from Reid limping around in season 5, so, original? nope 

[SSAHotchner]

Well said Danielg342! That's spot on how I feel. I hated that our CM team seemed to worship the ground the new team walked on. Humans are flawed and these agents don't seem to have any.

Yeah, me too, but they did pretty much the same thing with the pilot episode for Suspect Behavior. 

[zannej]

I'm ok with the spinoff team not being shown as flawed in the backdoor pilot. I mean, did any of the original recipe team have blatant flaws shown in their own pilot? They were all professional and good at their jobs, yet I still found them compelling. The flaws were things that came later.

 

Lebanna, I'm glad to hear from someone who immigrated legally. It can take a lot of work to gain legal citizenship. I didn't notice that the people who were being called expats were there illegally. I agree that they should not have been called expats. I lived overseas and knew some real expats-- people who were there legally and were paying all of the appropriate taxes. 

 

Man, Reid ending up at the beach would have been funny. I could see him there in that suit and being like "All the germs in this sand.... All the urine in that water....." LOL.

[normasm]

Well, Zannej, Gideon was a very conflicted, flawed person who had gone through a breakdown, for one. Reid looked like a total dweeblet, and was unattractively thin and badly dressed. The others weren't portrayed as heroes who magically solved all the problems of the world, just as people who were struggling to figure out who the unsub was and how to stop him. It was good writing that made it seem like a difficult job. So, to me, this crew seemed so perfect they could give Rossi pointers.

[SSAHotchner]

As usual, I have not watched the episode again to catch anything I might have missed. I'm just so tired of lazy writing. I know they had to cover so much in this single episode in order to introduce the team and establish the case, but it's clear they didn't really do any research about  the local law enforcement in Barbados or even what the FBI would be allowed to do in a foreign country. Once again I feel that Erica simply thinks the viewers are too moronic to notice such things, and sadly she's right about a great many of them. And they're all on Facebook giving their weekly, "I love this show! It's awesome!" comments, including misspelling the names of all the characters. 

 

I agree with most everything that's been said here, especially how awful Garcia was. Who'd have thought that she could get any more annoying, and yet they found a way. While I understand the classifying of the tech guy as a Mary Sue, I'd still rather have him than Garcia on Criminal Minds. And I have to say that Hotch looked especially yummy in this episode, not that it made up for the writing, but the hour wasn't completely wasted when I got to see a good bit of him looking so well. 

 

I like both Gary Sinise and Anna Gunn. I think they have some potential, but CBS will definitely have to put some bucks into hiring good writers, good researchers and getting realistic looking locations if they hope to convince anyone that this team works internationally.

[Vicky8675309]

Towards the end I kept worrying that the boy would get run over (hit in the head) by the rescue/search boats. Weird that he was tossed in the water (doesn't fit the MO).

This was one of the worst CM episodes and everyone has already listed most, if not all, of the faults.

I did like the acting of the family but their actions could have been written better (I don't blame the actors for the writers choice of them family not helping the dad fight or the "keystone cops" like chase of the unsub and daughter).

I didn't know that the writer doesn't like or can't write for MGG's character. They need to replace the writer with one who can write for all the characters. At least there weren't a ton of lovey dovey comments between Garcia and Morgan.

[zannej]

Towards the end I kept worrying that the boy would get run over (hit in the head) by the rescue/search boats. Weird that he was tossed in the water (doesn't fit the MO). This was one of the worst CM episodes and everyone has already listed most, if not all, of the faults. I did like the acting of the family but their actions could have been written better (I don't blame the actors for the writers choice of them family not helping the dad fight or the "keystone cops" like chase of the unsub and daughter). I didn't know that the writer doesn't like or can't write for MGG's character. They need to replace the writer with one who can write for all the characters. At least there weren't a ton of lovey dovey comments between Garcia and Morgan.

Vicky, the writer of this episode is the lead showrunner. She used to have a writing partner, but a bunch of writers were fired after season 4 and her partner was one of the ones axed. Basically her solo writing is bad-- and her former writing partner even said that.

[Oscirus]

I must be missing something. The guy who stays behind talks to the families likely because it makes sense and he likes drawing which is a fairly common hobby and who got the least screen time of the four people introduced is a Mary Sue?

[Vicky8675309]

Vicky, the writer of this episode is the lead showrunner. She used to have a writing partner, but a bunch of writers were fired after season 4 and her partner was one of the ones axed. Basically her solo writing is bad-- and her former writing partner even said that.

 

 

I didn't know that and thank you for the information. Maybe they should keep using the guest writers (or hire one) who can write for all the characters and if they can't write for all the character then at least do a good job with fan favorites. I'm still wondering why Reid use to get headaches (they were building it up to something then just dropped that story).  

 

Despite watching it every week, I haven't read much about this show except for a while back when that had that contract renewal (or not renewed then renewed) fiasco. Interesting information about the lead showrunner--poor writer.

[Danielg342]

I must be missing something. The guy who stays behind talks to the families likely because it makes sense and he likes drawing which is a fairly common hobby and who got the least screen time of the four people introduced is a Mary Sue?

From my vantage point, it's about the package and presentation. Those traits wouldn't be bad on their own, but combined together and with the other traits he's given, he gave the appearance that he could “do no wrong”.

To wit:

-He's given a limp, which means he's not “able-bodied” and thus implies I should “like” him out of sympathy for the hindrance in his motor skills.

--Add to that the fact that he's babyfaced and it evokes the feeling of “oh, how could such a terrible thing happen to a young man!”

-He draws, so I'm supposed to appreciate that he's this “well-rounded” character who's extra special because he can have an “artistic” side. It's also a rare trait for a crime drama character, and Hollywood likes to cast characters as artists to make them these people who have some kind of a “magical power” because being able to create and appreciate art means the character has a whole new power of “perception” and is a whole new level of genius. Reid to my knowledge doesn't draw, so already Monty has the jump on him.

-He does two jobs- tech analyst and liaison- both of which should be tough enough on their own for one person to handle, but Monty doesn't just handle both, he seemingly handles them with the greatest of ease.

-Garcia is unabashedly effusive in her praise of him and in her excitement of working with him, so much so that she sounds like she can't do her own job without him being in her presence. Unearned praise- and in this case it's unearned because we had yet to see the character in action- while not always a sign of Mary Sue-dom is usually the first red flag in identifying one. As I said in a previous post, it's one thing if the character seems to be completely flawless, but it's another if that same character is given endless praise by the “good” characters. Then the flawlessness is really driven home, because then the character in the story is framed as someone who cannot do any wrong, because no one with the “right” kind of thinking thinks they can or have made any mistakes. It's almost as if the character is not a human but a god, because that's how much the other characters are worshiping them.

-Most importantly- and most glaring- was that when Monty actually was “in action”, we saw him do nothing wrong. He immediately had “all the answers”, knowing exactly what to say to reassure the family that their kids would make it out alive, as well as knowing what to tell Garcia to calm her down. Not just that, but he also gave Garcia the “perfect” response to a challenge she posed to him, about how he was sure his method of providing unbridled hope was so effective. There wasn't any skepticism on Garcia's part or his about his response- there was just the underlying assumption that his way was always going to work and we, the audience, were supposed to acknowledge that.

I would agree that nothing, in principle, is wrong with a character who draws and is asked to handle two jobs- it's just the presentation of said character was way off the mark. There was no indication that he faced any real challenges, and, worse, Garcia seemed to be practically worshiping Monty, not treating him like a normal human being.

Plus, I remember the promotional material for Monty and it also added he had a “big heart” and helped keep Garrett grounded with his boundless enthusiasm, so added to what I saw (which hinted at that characterization) and it drove home the idea that the writers were trying too hard to come up with someone who'd be sympathetic to the audience. If there's one thing about a character I despise, it's one that I feel like I am “forced” to like, because I'd rather choose who and when I like a character. Characters that manipulate me, like Monty, are a sure way to turn me off of them.

[secnarf]

I'd also like to add that while the other characters seemed so in awe of Monty, I really wasn't impressed. I didn't personally think he handled the family all that well and I thought Garcia had a very valid criticism that Monty did a poor job of addressing. For me, it seemed more like we were being told that Monty is super awesome but we weren't being shown anything that corroborated that, that would make us think there is even a valid reason why the other characters admire him so much. That irritates me even more than giving him all of these "amazing traits". I think if they knock him off of his pedestal they could make him an interesting character, and I understand the limitations of the backdoor pilot and how it has to be heavy on the exposition, but it shouldn't come across as the audience being told one thing and seeing another.

I don't think I'd call him a Mary Sue, because to me that implies that the character actually can do no wrong, and that is what we actually see on the screen. In this case, I feel like we were told that he is essentially a Mary Sue, but that's not what I saw onscreen.

[normasm]

-He draws, so I'm supposed to appreciate that he's this “well-rounded” character who's extra special because he can have an “artistic” side. It's also a rare trait for a crime drama character, and Hollywood likes to cast characters as artists to make them these people who have some kind of a “magical power” because being able to create and appreciate art means the character has a whole new power of “perception” and is a whole new level of genius. Reid to my knowledge doesn't draw, so already Monty has the jump on him.

 

I like your post, Daniel, but I wanted to point out that drawing is one of the things Reid has been shown to do, first in Sex, Birth and Death (Season 2), and recently in Rock Creek Park. The first drawing looked like he was trying to make an APB style drawing of a suspect, albeit in Matthew's naive style. The ones in RCP were more in the real life style of drawing Matthew has, what the purpose was supposed to be for the case i don't know, but i enjoyed seeing them.

[Droogie]

I like your post, Daniel, but I wanted to point out that drawing is one of the things Reid has been shown to do, first in Sex, Birth and Death (Season 2), and recently in Rock Creek Park. The first drawing looked like he was trying to make an APB style drawing of a suspect, albeit in Matthew's naive style. The ones in RCP were more in the real life style of drawing Matthew has, what the purpose was supposed to be for the case i don't know, but i enjoyed seeing them.

I got the feeling, in RCP, that he was drawing to pass the time and let his mind wander. When I saw Monty drawing, it instantly pissed me off. I hated this episode. I really did.

[Old Dog]

I like your post, Daniel, but I wanted to point out that drawing is one of the things Reid has been shown to do, first in Sex, Birth and Death (Season 2), and recently in Rock Creek Park. The first drawing looked like he was trying to make an APB style drawing of a suspect, albeit in Matthew's naive style. The ones in RCP were more in the real life style of drawing Matthew has, what the purpose was supposed to be for the case i don't know, but i enjoyed seeing them.

The fact that they made Monty draw - like Reid - actually incensed me more. It was like Messer had deliberately imbued him with every trait and skill of Garcia, JJ and Reid she could think of making him this "awesome" composite perfect being, with of course the limp as a little flaw to humanise him. I felt as said before that I was being manipulated and I'm afraid it made the red mists rise! If I ever catch an episode of the spin off (unlikely) I am now totally predisposed to dislike the character and I lay that on the clumsy and manipulative portrayal of him.

[zannej]

I didn't know that and thank you for the information. Maybe they should keep using the guest writers (or hire one) who can write for all the characters and if they can't write for all the character then at least do a good job with fan favorites. I'm still wondering why Reid use to get headaches (they were building it up to something then just dropped that story).  

 

Despite watching it every week, I haven't read much about this show except for a while back when that had that contract renewal (or not renewed then renewed) fiasco. Interesting information about the lead showrunner--poor writer.

The writers gave a couple of different explanations on that one. The early explanation was that it was Reid's swan song because they thought they were "going to lose Matthew" that season (even though his contract was not up that season). Then came the fiasco with AJ and Paget. At some point something must have changed because they were keeping Reid. One of the writers said the only satisfactory end to that story would be for Reid to have like a massive stroke and die or something like that. Since Matthew was staying, they no longer wanted to kill Reid off but they didn't know what to do with the story. Rather than brainstorm and come up with something that made sense, they pretty much just dropped it. They tried to say it was psychosomatic (which is incredibly insulting to real migraine sufferers) and tried to cure it with a pep talk from Morgan-- and then later claimed that Maeve cured Reid's headaches. It was just dumb..

 

As for the Monty stuff, I wasn't annoyed by him, but I was annoyed by how Garcia reacted to him and how she stood there with stupid-face (literally making dumb-looking faces) and was suddenly so inept compared to him. One of my biggest pet peeves is when they take an existing character and make them look dumb/inferior to make a new character look oh so much better. They did it with Reid and Seaver. They do it in the comic books all the time. Like when the introduced the new Batgirl (Cassandra Caine) and she could magically kick everyone's ass. At first her trade-off was that she couldn't speak and didn't understand verbal language, but she magically got over that in a short period of time.

[Oscirus]

Add to that the fact that he's babyfaced and it evokes the feeling of “oh, how could such a terrible thing happen to a young man!”

 

That's just the actor that they cast, I doubt that the script purposely called for a baby-faced person to be cast in the role of Monty.

-He does two jobs- tech analyst and liaison- both of which should be tough enough on their own for one person to handle, but Monty doesn't just handle both, he seemingly handles them with the greatest of ease.

-Garcia is unabashedly effusive in her praise of him and in her excitement of working with him, so much so that she sounds like she can't do her own job without him being in her presence. Unearned praise- and in this case it's unearned because we had yet to see the character in action- while not always a sign of Mary Sue-dom is usually the first red flag in identifying one. As I said in a previous post, it's one thing if the character seems to be completely flawless, but it's another if that same character is given endless praise by the “good” characters. Then the flawlessness is really driven home, because then the character in the story is framed as someone who cannot do any wrong, because no one with the “right” kind of thinking thinks they can or have made any mistakes. It's almost as if the character is not a human but a god, because that's how much the other characters are worshiping them.

-Most importantly- and most glaring- was that when Monty actually was “in action”, we saw him do nothing wrong. He immediately had “all the answers”, knowing exactly what to say to reassure the family that their kids would make it out alive, as well as knowing what to tell Garcia to calm her down. Not just that, but he also gave Garcia the “perfect” response to a challenge she posed to him, about how he was sure his method of providing unbridled hope was so effective. There wasn't any skepticism on Garcia's part or his about his response- there was just the underlying assumption that his way was always going to work and we, the audience, were supposed to acknowledge that.

 

 

I understand what you're saying and I even agree with a lot of it. But the fact that this is a backdoor pilot with very little time devoted to him has to be taken into account. The only purpose is to introduce him, show why he's an improvement/different then other characters and move on.  Even the best backdoor pilots don't highlight the faults of the characters that they're trying to sell you.

[spinner33]

You can introduce a character in a short amount of time, and not make them super amazing awesome perfect wow at everything they touch.  I prefer realism.  Give them one or two traits which recommend them or make them interesting, and let the rest be average, or you're pushing past the point where real people can relate. 

 

This is Robert.  He's 35 and looks 45.  His nickname is Bob.  Bob was a veteran detective in Las Vegas for ten years, working gang violence and homicide, before he came to the FBI.  He was recruited to work in the FBI because when the feebs had a case in Vegas, he was instrumental in helping them catch the killer.  They were impressed with his abilities and asked him to join them.  His expertise is gang-related homicides, because that's what he did for ten years prior, so he has experience.  He's married with two kids.  His wife is cheating with his best friend.  He's got a dog.  He drives a minivan.  He is allergic to peanuts.   He's tubby.  He's balding.  He's got a spot on his tie from when he grabbed a quick lunch from the taco truck on the corner.  That doesn't matter.  It's an ugly tie anyhow. 

 

This is Mary Sue.  She's 25.  She is the best damned detective who ever worked in Las Vegas, ever in the history of ever!  She graduated top of her class in all subjects ever taught.  She's lived in twelve countries, she speaks ten languages, and she's worked as a cop, an Air Force pilot, a model, and a super-secret  undercover spy for the CIA, all before she was 25!  She was recruited by the FBI because OMG how could they possibly survive without someone so awesome?!  She's six foot tall, with waist-length blonde hair, and eyes the same shade of blue as a summer storm over Kansas farmlands.   Every man she meets is in love with her instantly.  Every woman who dislikes her is a Plain-Jane jealous hater.  Mary is a martial arts expert, a language expert, a decorated marksman, a computer hacker, a great cook, a terrific wife, the perfect mommy who reads to her children every night regardless of where she is at their bedtime.  She's a vegetarian, and she's an animal rights activist.  She runs marathons on weekends to keep in shape.  She kickboxes too!  She wears $2,000 business suits and six-inch wedge heels.   Her nickname is The Valkyrie.  It's her secret CIA codename too, because she's working for the FBI and the CIA both.  And she's still a model.

 

Okay, maybe that second example is a wee bit over-the-top, but that's how these new spinoff characters come across to me.  There's nothing average or normal about them.  Even their average is far above average.  It's not interesting if you don't see a character struggle to overcome.  If you know they will always win, where's the drama?  If they are already perfect, what is there to strive for?  There's no joy for me in watching pretty perfect people clear every case simply by virtue of their awesomeness. 

[Old Dog]

You are so right Spinner! You should have a go at screen writing as I am sure you would do a better job than the current team - and I see word on the street that Rick Dunkle is moving on from CM so they must be on the hunt for new writers!

[Droogie]

ROFL, spinner! You made my day. Poor Bob -- I'll bet he is a great guy. I want to have him over for dinner and introduce him to some of my nice friends. His wife doesn't deserve him.

[spinner33]

I love to write, but I'd never make it in Hollywood.  I have very thin skin.  The rejection would crush me.  Thanks, though.  

 

Now I want to drop Bob into a book, and follow his story.  And I want tacos.  :) 

[Old Dog]

I love to write, but I'd never make it in Hollywood.  I have very thin skin.  The rejection would crush me.  Thanks, though.  

 

Now I want to drop Bob into a book, and follow his story.  And I want tacos.  :) 

I'd read about Bob! And I have never had a taco - they are not seen often here in deepest Somerset!

[Droogie]

I'd read about Bob! And I have never had a taco - they are not seen often here in deepest Somerset!

I would too!

Oh, Olddog, you've never had a taco?? I am so sad. Tacos are sublime. If you were really determined, you could google recipes, make your own shells... It would be totally worth it. But I've bet you've had some cool stuff I've never heard of.

[normasm]

Tacoooooooossss!!

[spinner33]

I can't imagine life without tacos! :) 

[Old Dog]

Americans! I bet you don't have steak and kidney puddings!

[spinner33]

Hey, that would be a brilliant aspect for the spinoff to explore -- food differences from country to country!  Which cultures prefer certain foods a certain way?  Which foods would you never serve to someone from a particular culture?  What would be considered a staple here but an exotic treat elsewhere?  I could get into that kind of cultural exchange! 

[Droogie]

Americans! I bet you don't have steak and kidney puddings!

We don't, darn it all. But I would totally eat it if I had an opportunity. I would try any food, except bugs and intestines. I love a lot of foods people consider disgusting. Heh.

[normasm]

Americans! I bet you don't have steak and kidney puddings!

OK, I know I'm continuing this off-topicness…. I wouldn't knowingly eat kidneys because of what they do…. which is hypocritical because i love chicken livers!

Hey, that would be a brilliant aspect for the spinoff to explore -- food differences from country to country!  Which cultures prefer certain foods a certain way?  Which foods would you never serve to someone from a particular culture?  What would be considered a staple here but an exotic treat elsewhere?  I could get into that kind of cultural exchange! 

Oh, spinner, trying to stay on-topic! Good kitty…. yeah, I bet Spencer would have a lot to say about the food cultures they would encounter.

[Old Dog]

I might actually watch Beyond Borders if they set an episode over here - especially after having worked over 30 years in our justice system! I would like to see how much research they actually do especially after seeing that the Barbadians were not impressed.

 

Oh and Normasm - Devilled kidneys .......mmmmm

[normasm]

 

We don't, darn it all. But I would totally eat it if I had an opportunity. I would try any food, except bugs and intestines. I love a lot of foods people consider disgusting. Heh.

 

Spinner, please add brains to your list! No creutzfelt-jacob disease, please (this is a disease Spencer already cited on CM, and I drew depictions of as a medical illustrator. Awful)!

Edited April 12, 2015 by normasm

[jaytee1812]

I might actually watch Beyond Borders if they set an episode over here - especially after having worked over 30 years in our justice system! I would like to see how much research they actually do especially after seeing that the Barbadians were not impressed.

I'd love an ep set in the UK. If it's not full of British people rolling their eyes every time Gary Sinise opens his mouth then it's wholly inaccurate. ;)

[Droogie]

OK, I know I'm continuing this off-topicness…. I wouldn't knowingly eat kidneys because of what they do…. which is hypocritical because i love chicken livers!

Oh, spinner, trying to stay on-topic! Good kitty…. yeah, I bet Spencer would have a lot to say about the food cultures they would encounter.

I love chicken liver too. LOVE. My mom was a wizard with them. I love rumaki too. I can't bring myself to make them, but I have no trouble eating the finished product.

I'd love to see Spencer faced with a plate of haggis (or mountain oysters!) or something, and trying to be gracious even though he doesn't want to try it. He does seem to like ethnic foods though so maybe his palate is adventuresome, even though he can't use chopsticks.

[spinner33]

I'll bite.  What's rumaki?