Recurring Characters: From Dwarves to Knights to Crickets

[legaleagle53]

Watch some of those clips in that interview.  Patrick is one hell of an actor, if you ask me!

[legaleagle53]

From Hook's thread:

Rumple and Isaac resent guys like Hook and Charming, but Hook especially worked damn hard to get that swagger. He studied and trained and fought, when he could've just coasted on the pretty instead.

 

Does it bother anyone else that Isaac (who's Jewish) has a problem with a WWII vet?

ETA: I mean, the friggin' Nazis were only trying to exterminate his people (among other so-called undesirables).

 

 

Isaac didn't have a problem with the fact that his boss was a WWII vet.  He had a problem with the fact that his boss was able to bond with Isaac's own customer in a way that Isaac couldn't.  It didn't help matters that said boss afterwards rubbed Isaac's nose in the fact that Isaac sucked as a writer and storyteller (hence all the rejection slips) as well as a sales rep.

Edited May 15, 2015 by legaleagle53

[pezgirl7]

Yea, I didn't think Isaac had any problems with service members. I actually thought the man was his co-worker, and was maybe stealing his commission, and that's why Isaac was annoyed.

[YaddaYadda]

There was that and after his "reaction", I was like why didn't he enlist to go fight in Europe or in the Pacific during the war?  I thought there was some inferiority complex towards the two veterans and my reaction when I saw what he had turned both David and Hook into was that he was just being vengeful.  Hook tells Henry he's not a solider and David is basically a killer for a psycho queen.  

[Dani-Ellie]

Exactly. The boss was a jerk. By all means, talk to an employee if his performance is suffering but there's a way to do it that's not as condescending as that guy was. And tearing into his dream while he was at it was just petty. That'd be like my boss calling me into his office to discuss my performance and then telling me I'll never publish a novel because I'm a sucky writer without me having offered my stuff to him for criticism. (And even if I did offer my stuff to my boss for criticism and he thought it sucked, I can guarantee you that he'd be a lot more diplomatic than that.)

 

None of this excuses Isaac's actions, of course. I'm just saying, I think he did have a legitimate beef with that guy that was due to how the guy treated him.

[legaleagle53]

And now you can see why Isaac said Regina was his favorite person to write about, why he chose Rumple as his muse, and why he fell in love with Cruella.  He identified with the way they all felt that life had screwed them all over.  It's telling that he didn't change his opinion of Cruella even after she tried to kill him in 1920s World and have him killed in Storybrooke.

 

Incidentally, Isaac has his own Twitter account, believe it or not.  His "comments" are hilarious, and it's well worth following him (he interacts with those who follow him, too!).  You should read his opinion of Henry after I told him what Henry did to the magic pen!

Edited May 15, 2015 by legaleagle53

[Rumsy4]

OMG... what is his Twitter? I want to check it out!

[KingOfHearts]

I can't think of a better casting, really. He just embodied the character.

[FurryFury]

Yeah, I didn't expect to do it, but I've enjoyed his performance quite a bit. Too bad his plotline was such a mess.

[legaleagle53]

OMG... what is his Twitter? I want to check it out!

 

Ask, and thou shalt receive: https://twitter.com/TheStoryAuthor

[KAOS Agent]

Isaac didn't have a problem with the fact that his boss was a WWII vet.  He had a problem with the fact that his boss was able to bond with Isaac's own customer in a way that Isaac couldn't.

 

I think there was an issue with veterans because they were "heroes" and this included his boss. There was a reason that they had the boss call the customer a hero after identifying himself as a vet. It was to highlight why Isaac had issues with people considered to be heroes. The problem was that Isaac has a skewed impression of heroes. Truthfully, someone can be a huge asshole and still show incredible bravery and selflessness in the right situation. For example, someone can be a horrible misogynistic date rapist, but still be willing to go jump on a grenade and save his friends. His final act would be incredibly heroic and he would be hailed as a hero, but his regular every day actions would belie this "hero" label.

 

Isaac hates his rather unheroic boss because he uses his heroic deed to get ahead/benefit from something without actually doing the hard work required to actually be/remain a hero. He's a fake hero much like Rumpel in the AU. I'm rather amused by this because Isaac hates Snowing, who generally consistently do the right thing, but he aligns himself with Rumpel/Regina, who tend to get the hero label after doing one act without actually continuing to keep on the right path and selflessly work for the good of others. Isaac chooses to hang with people like his ex-boss instead of people who genuinely do deserve a positive label. Maybe it's because he resents his own inability to be a "hero" himself.

Edited May 15, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[Rumsy4]

Ask, and thou shalt receive: https://twitter.com/TheStoryAuthor

Thanks! Looks fun...

[legaleagle53]

He may even follow you back, too (he follows me, in fact)!

[Camera One]

I feel like bringing August back was worthless. They don't want to explore the character or his relationships with the others. He followed the Mr. Exposition trope for his whole return. That's a poor reason to resurrect a character, imo.

 

That was really disappointing.  He actually got quite a bit of screentime for a guest character, but it was him being the exposition fairy, as you said, and a not very convincing one at that.  I still don't buy that he knew all of that.  Why the hell would the Apprentice tell him that information.  It was so convenient and nonsensical he just sauntered in at the beginning of the season finale with that sketch of the Apprentice.  

 

I haven't really been a fan of August since they ruined him in Season 2, but one thing they could have done which would have made his scenes worthwhile, was if we saw him interacting with Marco for an episode.  Yes, that wouldn't have fit in with the Author plot, but that plot sucked anyway, so I'd rather have filler.  Heck, say Marco needed to build a magical wooden staircase to allow the Apprentice to step out of the Hat within an hour, and Marco needed August's help or something.  I remember back in Season 1, that scene near the end of "The Stranger" made me curious how they would explore the relationship between Marco and grown-up August.  But nope, that was never explored, and we didn't even get to see them interact after August became an adult again.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Why the hell would the Apprentice tell him that information.  It was so convenient and nonsensical he just sauntered in at the beginning of the season finale with that sketch of the Apprentice.

Sort of takes away from the August-working-for-Pan theories, doesn't it? Good thing the other exposition fairy was there to fill him on Storybrooke, the book, and all sorts of other elements that wouldn't be relevant until 4B. Like geez, thanks August for just carrying this information around all this time. He tries to act all omniscient, but it's only because PLOT designed him that way.

 

 

I haven't really been a fan of August since they ruined him in Season 2, but one thing they could have done which would have made his scenes worthwhile, was if we saw him interacting with Marco for an episode.

Just one reunion scene, please. August going back to Pinnochio was a better fate than moving to Offscreenville, imo.

 

We did get a few lines about Emma's "friendship" (gag) with August and Hook being a little jealous, but it was largely superficial. The writing basically ignored all the stuff that happened between them in order to avoid focusing on stuff they didn't care about. (Like continuity.) They put away all the awkwardness and friend zoned them to keep the plot moving along. So why did August even make an appearance? Endless eye candy and guest cameos, of course! Gotta fill all that empty space that would have went toward character development with something.

 

 

I haven't really been a fan of August since they ruined him in Season 2

I never liked August, tbh. He was one of those characters I could tolerate in S1, but I agree they ruined him in S2. No one cares that he met Tamara in Hong Kong. (Oops, I'm not supposed to mention that episode...)

Edited May 24, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[FurryFury]

For some reason, I liked August in 4B more than I had liked him in s1/2. It's weird. Maybe he just reminded me of happier times, I dunno.

[Delphi]

I guess this would go here. Rose McGowan was allegedly dropped by her agency for tweeting about sexism in Hollywood.

https://www.yahoo.com/movies/rose-mcgowan-says-agent-dropped-her-for-122414136927.html

[Faemonic]

One of the hooks for next season was Lily finding out who her dragon daddy was.

 

I just realized.

 

David killed a dragon who wasn't Mal back in season one.

 

David, you dark-hearted scoundrel!

[KingOfHearts]

 

David killed a dragon who wasn't Mal back in season one.

Oh great, another reason for her to poison the Charmings' cocoa.

[legaleagle53]

Did you know that Red had a dog?  Now you do!   

Kind of ironic, don't you think?  :)

[Rumsy4]

Cute! :-)

[Amerilla]

Been binge watching Masters of Sex (S1) and very funny to see Rose McIver as innocent little Vivian.

I really enjoy iZombie, so glad that she and David Anders will be back at it next season.

[babyPhat279]

I don't mind so much when people appear/disappear because honestly it amuses me how much of a hot mess this show can be sometimes. I'll admit it, I'm here for the flourish of funny costumes and guyliner.

 

Rewatching some old episodes now, and I have to wonder what the writers had wanted to do with Jefferson, but maybe couldn't since the actor was busy with other stuff. I feel like he was an interesting character. I wish there was a thread to discuss all the storylines that "never were" because of people's schedules, or what have you. But we will probably only know snippets here and there, the writers probably want to keep those things under wraps in case actor become more available later.

 

But I also have to say I rewatched Grumpy's episode, and I'm so glad they never brought Nova back. That fairy/nun was the epitome of "get your shit together, girl." Was she supposed to be tweaking or something? I also didn't like the general idea of dwarves being hatched, not having the ability to fall in love, etc. If there are so many eggs of dwarves being hatched, where are all the others? How does this drive the story? Why couldn't they have just, I dunno, come from a realm of shorter people? I guess they had to tie it to the fairy dust somehow, but it's just so damn weird.

[Camera One]

Rewatching some old episodes now, and I have to wonder what the writers had wanted to do with Jefferson, but maybe couldn't since the actor was busy with other stuff.

 

If the actor hadn't been available, we might never have gotten Emma/Hook.  Or maybe a Emma/Hook/Jefferson/Neal quadrangle.

[Camera One]

The depiction of Ariel is like the cartoon came to life, and I love that they managed to keep her slight ditziness and not quite fully getting humans. Also, the person who decided after her introduction that Hook would be the person in the main cast she'd interact with the most deserves a medal. Against the other Disney princess types she's cute, but it could easily get cloying. But throwing her perky goodness against Hook's darker and edgier (but still with that kernel of goodness) self is such a fun dynamic. I'd love to see more of it because that goody-goody but maybe also a little bit bratty kid sister/jaded (but still hopeful) big brother vibe they have is so much fun. I wouldn't want her as a regular because she'd get old fast (there's only so much perky one can take), but her popping up for the Hook centrics is fine with me.

 

Do you feel Ariel's characterization is similar to Anna, or different?

[Shanna Marie]

Do you feel Ariel's characterization is similar to Anna, or different?

I think Ariel has a good reason to be the way she is, since she's only watched humans from afar until recently. So there's an element of ignorance and naivety to her. This is the chick who wondered aloud why they were doing everything the Darling Hipsters told them to do because she didn't know what a gun was. She also hasn't been shown to even try changing anyone but Hook. It was Snow who had to give her the pep talk and encourage her to talk to Eric. I guess she sort of gave Belle a boost when Belle was whining about it backfiring when she tries to be a hero (clue: trying to be a hero might be your problem -- try to do the right thing and don't worry about whether that makes you a "hero"), but it was Belle who came up with the solution to their dilemma. So Ariel hasn't gone around solving everyone's problems with her perkiness. She's been used by both the good guys and the bad guys and is often in way over her head. The closest she's come to playing an Anna role was in pointing out to Hook that villains don't win because they go about it the wrong way, though in that arc that was a breath of fresh air. She's also been more active in the present than in the past, so there's been no retconning revelation that she was the reason for something that happened in the past.

 

So I guess Ariel and Anna have similar core personalities, but they're used in very different ways, and Ariel has more of an excuse to be that perky and naive because she really and truly doesn't get it. I kind of feel like the Once Anna took the movie Anna's core traits and they Flanderized her instead of letting her be a flesh-and-blood character.

[HoodlumSheep]

^ I think Ariel and Anna have similar core personalities too. But for whatever reason I find Ariel to be slightly less naive than Anna. She bonked Hook on the head and held a knife to his throat. She certainly knew how to deal with pirates at least.

I feel like Ariel and Anna have two different kinds of peppy/happy/naivety to them, but I think Ariel is better characterized. Out of the Frozen crew I think Anna was the most...stagnated out of the bunch.

Edited September 13, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[YaddaYadda]

Ariel is awesome and Anna was a caricature. I'm all for bubbly personalities, but Anna was way too much. 

[Mari]

^ I think Ariel and Anna have similar core personalities too. But for whatever reason I find Ariel to be slightly less naive than Anna. She bonked Hook on the head and held a knife to his throat. She certainly knew how to deal with pirates at least.

I feel like Ariel and Anna have two different kinds of peppy/happy/naivety to them, but I think Ariel is better characterized. Out of the Frozen crew I think Anna was the most...stagnated out of the bunch.

Yes.

 

I think part of it is how the characters were utilized . . . Ariel was cheerful, perky, and naive, but she was used to do things that made sense for her, and they kept her skill-set plausible.  For example:  She stood up to Regina and stabbed her with a fork, but didn't suddenly have the ability to outsmart or outmagic her.  Ariel kind of lucked and fluked into it, and it wasn't a complete victory;  she lost her voice and was separated from Eric for 30ish years.  

 

Plus, Ariel is pretty open about not always knowing what's going on.  She's aware that she doesn't have all the info about things that others do, and accepts that she's going to need some explaining.  

 

Anna, on the other hand?  She pranced around the Enchanted Forest, suddenly knowing how to do things like sword fight, outsmarting much more evil and tricky people, condescendingly giving lectures about standing up to bullies . . . 

 

She might be  naive, cheerful, and perky, but they also made sure that she was just a little better at things than almost every Enchanted Forest character she encountered.  It was annoying.

Edited September 14, 2015 by Mari

[Shanna Marie]

Ariel kind of lucked and fluked into it, and it wasn't a complete victory;  she lost her voice and was separated from Eric for 30ish years.

And she got stuck in a bottle for a couple of months because she apparently chased after Blackbeard on her own (I'm not sure what good she thought she'd do) after realizing that him having the Jolly Roger was actually a bad thing.

 

I think it helps a lot that after her "origin" story with Snow and Regina, Ariel has been used in the present (or near-present, in the case of the Missing Year). They haven't tried to give her a history with every other character or tie her in to all the other plot lines in a past that feels retconned. She mostly keeps running into Hook now, which makes sense because she's a mermaid and he's a sailor. And she's used sporadically over time instead of being crammed into one plot arc. Anna might not have been as annoying in the present in small doses without all the straining to connect her to so many other characters in the past. I wouldn't want a whole Ariel arc necessarily, but I like her popping up every so often to slap Hook when he needs it and bicker with him a bit.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I'm the opposite. I honestly didn't even remember her character until you brought it up. She adds nothing significant to the show or the characters in my opinion.

Oh I agree she was extremely forgettable. I despised her. But she was given two flashback episodes, involvement with a major 4B plot, relationships with both Maleficent and Emma, a part in the two-hour finale, and even a cliffhanger insinuating they're going to continue her story. Most of all, the show tried its darndest to convince us that she and Emma were fated besties who shared an eternal bond. Lily is supposed to have Emma's darkness, and here we are with Dark Swan. It makes little sense to use a whole season to setup a character, only to drop her out when one of her biggest connections on the show is on the frontlines.

 

My problem is just that A&E swore up and down she was a new and relevant regular we should care about, yet she was immediately moved to Offscreenville. We get Robin and Zelena, who are completely irrelevant to the events of 5A, but we have Lily who Emma supposedly cared about so much only to have her not even mentioned. Why did the show work so hard in 4B to introduce her? TS,TW.

Edited October 13, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Mathius]

Agreed on all that, except that I liked Lily. Her storyline was crap, but she was all right.

[LizaD]

I liked Anna a lot better than Merida. Merida grates for some reason. Yes Anna was the quintessential Mary Sue but I prefer that kind of Mary Sue over say our permanent Mary Sue Patron Saint of Victims. On any other show though and I would've despised her. On this show it was refreshing to see someone hailed as the bestest thing since slice bread actually do good things and do them because she is just that good. Eye roll worthy for sure but at least honest storytelling. Trying to find honesty in this show is like searching for Big Foot.

Teen Lily was annoying. Horribly. But maybe that was the effect of the horribleness of the episode itself. I didn't mind adult Lily and I liked Lily and Mal if I ignore the blatant "throw Snowing under the bus eggnapping" thing. However if there's no Mal around I'm not interested in seeing just Lily. The thing that bugs is that they set up a story for her in the 4B finale. And yet sometime between the finale and the planning for 5A, they changed their minds. Again. Then they'll pretend that if they pick it up 2 seasons later it'll all make sense and show off their mad master storytelling skillz.

[Rumsy4]

I would prefer to forget 4B ever existed. Yes--they blatantly dropped Lily's story, but I'm glad they did. I found teen Lily annoying and entitled, and adult Lily annoying and bland. I think Lily's story was chopped to make way for Brave. By A&E's standards, that's positively economical! 

[Mathius]

Teen Lily WAS pretty damn annoying, I agree on that point. I can't say I found adult Lily any more "annoying and bland" than Emma, though, their styles were deliberately similar and it's why I personally was interested in seeing what they might do with her. She'd have made a much better 5A Savior than Regina. I still hope they use her in 5B like they said they want to, but I'm not placing any bets since I still remember their promises for Will Scarlet in 4B.

Edited October 16, 2015 by Mathius

[Camera One]

Lily needs to go through a ton more growth before she is ready for Savior status (not that Regina is any more worthy but two wrongs don't make a right).  A day or two ago, Lily was ready to kill two people in revenge for ruining her life.  Some psychiatry sessions may be in order.  Emma is not all that similar to Lily.  Their approach to life is completely different.  Emma blames herself and can put aside her personal feelings for the greater good.  Lily blames outside factors and stewed with anger and revenge in her heart.  Emma has and can carry a show, so I would consider her the opposite of "annoying and bland".

[october]

I don't dislike Lily, but I just don't care about her either. I'd love to see her and Maleficent leave Storybrooke and get a happy ending together, but I see no reason for her to stick around for an entire arc. The slightly increased screen time we've seen for minor characters in the show has reminded me of how good this show can and could be, and of how much the show still needs to delve into the characters it already has.

 

Have they mentioned her this season so far? I can't remember. This is a show I make a point of watching every week, but I totally forgot Lily existed. This does not bode well. She was only around for a couple of episodes but other minor characters have made more of an impression in less time.

 

Not having Lily feature in early 5A so far isn't doing her character any favours either. Darkness or not, Lily already screwed Emma over multiple times and Emma has agreed to help her. Then we open the season with Emma missing and no idea whether Lily gives a shit. I have more investment in Emma and Regina's 'friendship' than I do her and Lily's, which is saying a lot considering how much I loathe the former relationship.

[HoodlumSheep]

I like Lily, not the mess of the storyline she was involved with. I want her storyline finished though because Dropped story lines kind of grate me. As for why she's not involved this season, I like to headcanon that she and Mal have taken up residence at either Zelena's house or Rumple's cabin. Mother-daughter bonding time. Therefore, they are isolated (being located somewhere in the boondocks) and would be oblivious to what was happening in town.

Edited October 16, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[Delphi]

I'll further that and head canon that Archie visits for weekly therapy sessions to help them through it.

[LizaD]

I'm pretty sure they dropped Lily like a hot potato when they decided to do something different with Camelot over the summer planning. I thought the finale set her up for Camelot with the find my daddy thing and also the star tattoo that gave her a direct connection to the Apprentice and Merlin.

 

In other news, Merida still grates. She's just so shoe-horned in and reeks of desperation to name drop Disney property.  I mean Frozen did too but they more than pulled their weight as we saw with the ratings.

[RadioGirl27]

I'm pretty sure they dropped Lily's storyline the moment they decided to bring Merida, and that a big part of Merida's story was originally intended for Lily.

[Camera One]

I don't think Lily could have fit Merida's role in the first episode and in the latest one.  I don't see how Lily could have helped Rumple become a "hero".

 

I think the genesis of Merida went somewhere like this... Okay, writing team, we have Emma transported to Camelot and tempted by Rumple in her mind.  Now who's Emma going to talk to and threaten to kill?  We need *someone* to fill that role.  We also don't have enough strong female characters this arc since Arthur is a man and one of our original ideas was to have a WOMAN be the one to pull the sword from the stone.  Such a twist.   Pocahontas?  Esmeralda?  Word association time!  Camelot... England... Scotland... Brave... Merida!  Brilliant everyone, let's call it a day.

[HoodlumSheep]

It's funny how A&E and everybody else were talking about what a seamless and great fit Merida was with the Camelot story, and it turns out that it's the Camelot crew that fits and meshes better. I'd totally be down with Arthur turning into a King George/Blackbeard (I guess Zelena too, although they ruined it with the baby nonsense) reoccurring villain that occasionally pops up to cause trouble.

For some reason I can imagine Arthur being banished at the end of this arc and becoming eventually evil besties with Hans. I feel like they'd get along.

Edited October 20, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[Mathius]

It's funny how A&E and everybody else were talking about what a seamless and great fit Merida was with the Camelot story

Did they really say this? Because yeah, NO.

[HoodlumSheep]

Did they really say this? Because yeah, NO.

I was paraphrasing, but yeah, they believed Merida to be a good fit.

Edited October 20, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[orza]

They said Merida is a good fit for this arc. If her primary role is to make Rumple brave then, yes, Merida is a good fit since she embodies bravery.

[scenicbyway]

I'm pretty sure they dropped Lily like a hot potato when they decided to do something different with Camelot over the summer planning. I thought the finale set her up for Camelot with the find my daddy thing and also the star tattoo that gave her a direct connection to the Apprentice and Merlin.

 

In other news, Merida still grates. She's just so shoe-horned in and reeks of desperation to name drop Disney property.  I mean Frozen did too but they more than pulled their weight as we saw with the ratings.

I agree, wasn't the original point of going to Camelot to find Lily's dad?  I think they must've gotten poor reviews for the character (I would've willingly been one of them) and just decided to drop the character all together ala Tamara and Greg in season 3.  They wouldn't have been able to do much to write out her character last season once the bad reviews came in because they only had a couple of episodes left to finish the season.  That's part of the problem with a split season, they only have 3 or so episodes left to film by the time the show comes back in March which means no time for corrections.

 

Of course Merida is shoe horned in, but I'm sure they feel like they have to give a nod to a Disney character every season.  Frankly, Merida is more interesting than Lily and we know that Merida will go home at the end of it, we might be stuck with Lily who I can only assume is hanging out with August right now?

[Mathius]

I agree, wasn't the original point of going to Camelot to find Lily's dad?

 

No, not at all.  The point of going to Camelot was to find Merlin due to the darkness escaping.  The "find Lily's dad" plot was just a general up-in-the-air thing that A&E have either postponed or dropped.

 

I think they must've gotten poor reviews for the character (I would've willingly been one of them) and just decided to drop the character all together ala Tamara and Greg in season 3.

 

 

If that's the case, they wouldn't have still said they plan on doing her story in 5B (which isn't to say those plans will fall through, as we know all too well by now).  I don't think reception has anything to do with it; it's just another simple case of shiny new toys attracting their attention to the point where they abruptly throw away the old toys they had.

 

we might be stuck with Lily who I can only assume is hanging out with August right now?

 

 

Hooray, my August/Lily ship can happen then! XD

[Rumsy4]

Agnes Bruckner (Lily) is pregnant. So we either forget about seeing Lily in Season 5, or we are going to have yet another baby ready to pop in Storybrooke. Maybe she goes on a quest to find her father and gets pregnant by a Dragon. That way she and Mal can go together looking for their respective (hopefully different) baby daddys. Not.

[Mathius]

It may be just as well, since there's no news as to whether KBVS is available for Maleficent anymore (she was only contracted for 4B) and if she isn't then there would be very little point in continuing Lily and her story anyway.

Edited October 26, 2015 by Mathius