S03.E09: Do Mail Robots Dream of Electric Sheep?

[sistermagpie]

The only answer I see is Philip lost control, and his emotions overtook his actions. But he’s trained to do just the opposite and we’ve seen him succeed very well elsewhere just about every time. Why this time was he unable to control his emotions, if indeed that’s the answer? Maybe he loves Paige more than anything else? The whole thing just didn't seem to fit.

The only answer I see is Philip lost control, and his emotions overtook his actions. But he’s trained to do just the opposite and we’ve seen him succeed very well elsewhere just about every time. Why this time was he unable to control his emotions, if indeed that’s the answer? Maybe he loves Paige more than anything else? The whole thing just didn't seem to fit.

 

 

 

 

Here's my only suggestion because I had the same issue--why would Philip be handing this to Gabriel? Including the line about loving Elizabeth when he met her? He's been very close-mouthed to Gabriel all season, refusing to give up any info.

 

But here's my thought. While P&E are arguing about Paige, they're also both unconsciously dealing with their own adolescence and adolescent recruitment. With Elizabeth it's been more obvious. She has flashbacks about her mother, she tells Philip how her mother told her to go, she gets tapes from her mother, she talks about her mother to Betty who clearly is like a mother. She's openly trying to be like her mother because she thinks this is what a good mother would do. And she's letting Gabriel be a father figure. From the first time they went to his place she was like the favorite granddaughter with him. She wants to please Gabriel, follows his hints about what to do, treats him like somebody she knows has her best interests at heart because the cause is all. She's doing her thing, being the teacher's pet.

 

If Elizabeth has any doubts about the Centre/her mother/Gabriel's care for her, she doubles down on her commitment to the cause and tells herself this is the way it should be. That's not necessarily how she feels underneath--remember her breakthrough with Philip in the pilot was when he put her above everything. She's doing that now, especially since she wants to recruit Paige herself.

 

With Philip this same arc is maybe more hidden because he has no memories of his parents that we've shared. I think for him the parental figure has been Gabriel--and through him the Centre. His flashback to adolescence was to sex training. He referred to him and Irina possibly having a baby when "they were kids." He's not, I don't think, consciously thinking of himself at all, but underneath he's dealing with the same kind of emotions as Elizabeth, projecting his feelings about his own adolescence onto Paige. Where she's trying, imo, to completely suppress the pain she felt in hers, he's feeling his.

 

So Gabriel here, is like his father. He has known him since he was young, it seems. Their relationship in the premiere was also very childlike like Gabriel/Elizabeth, only Philip was more like the shy kid that had to be drawn out with boardgames. Gabriel positions himself as the caring paternal figure--in this ep he made it more explicit than ever saying he loved Philip (as did Elizabeth--he was reinforcing their little family they created when they came to the US), assuring him he's not alone and asking him to tell him what was wrong.

 

So I think this issue is enough of a sore spot that Philip lashes out like an angry teenager. Because he's so angry and hurt by his "father." He sees that Gabriel doesn't love him, isn't looking out for him like a younger Philip naively thought he would. He's just using him as a tool and trying to make him the same kind of father with Kimmie and Paige. Philip doesn't want to be that. It's like a delayed adolescent accusation of betrayal. So it's not a strategic move, it's an emotional outburst brought on by Gabriel again trying to come at him like a father who wants to protect him when he's just trying to use and manipulate him.

 

That might be just too big of an emotional issue--one that Philip probably isn't consciously aware of--for him to respond to unemotionally. It's like maybe Philip's version of Elizabeth's beating up of Grannie. For her it was the idea that she, who had suffered so much like a good girl and never complained, could be betrayed by the Centre that she trusted. It was like the rape again, only with the rape she could tell herself it was this one guy and the Centre didn't know. There the Centre was telling her they didn't really appreciate all her sacrifices.

 

The Centre and the handlers kind of set themselves up as surrogate parents--they basically became their parents at 16 when they took them away from their own. Both of them had things they had to believe about those parents to do the things they do. Given how Philip is about his own family it's maybe not surprising that he had to believe in some personal loyalty and affection. (Interestingly, though he doesn't know it, he did get that from one KGB official, Arkady. Such a boss!)

[Umbelina]

Interesting.

 

I just don't see Philip losing control though.  I believe there was emotion, but Philip has been biding his time and trying to decide what to do with the obviously manipulative Gabriel all season.  You could absolutely be right though.

 

To me it felt like he was drawing his line in the sand.  It was "dueling pistols at dawn" time.  It was calling a bluff.  It was anything but NOT deliberate to me.  It was fuck you.  It was "I WILL take you on old man, do you really want this fight?"

 

Who, when push comes to shove, is more important to the KGB?  The aging handler, or the incredibly well placed, and effective, young, deeply embedded operations officer? 

 

At the very least it was "I'm not buying your shit anymore." time. 

Edited March 27, 2015 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

I just don't see Philip losing control though.  I believe there was emotion, but Philip has been biding his time and trying to decide what to do with the obviously manipulative Gabriel all season.  You could absolutely be right though.

 

 

Losing control may be the wrong way to put it, you're right. He was very controlled and deliberate in what he was saying. So it's not so much losing control but feeling he just had to make this clear. He made the decision to say what he needed to say--and he said it pretty succinctly. It was important to him to speak up in that moment when for most of the season he's said very little about personal stuff to Gabriel.

 

I think he maybe is a lot more emotional than he shows--Philip's all about the barely suppressed volcano and his eyes are already shining before he speaks.

Edited March 27, 2015 by sistermagpie

[Umbelina]

Agree, but I still think it was more of a "Dueling pistols at dawn?" moment. 

 

"OK, Gabe, you really want to take me on?  Fine."

[DrSpaceman]

Martha gone into FULL denial mode.  Next stop fatal Attraction mode!  Rabbit stew anyone!

I don't know if thats true. Part of me thought maybe she is playing him now. She works for the FBI, she has a job as an assistant with one of the top men in the FBI, I can't see making it that far and being this naive about things.

I don't really understand, during the MANY times someone finds them during a mission, how some they choose to let live and others they kill. There doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to it other than just whatever makes the best story at the time.

I didn’t understand Philip’s speech in the sense of why an extremely sophisticated and highly trained spy would betray such a fundamental emotional weakness to, and essentially an antipathy toward, the one person who’s best positioned to do him harm. Yes, Gabriel failed him in a very personal and duplicitous manner. But they’re both in the business of duplicity and personal betrayal. I get why Philip’s pissed – but not why did he broadcast his displeasure to Gabriel. Philip already knows he’s likely on Gabriel’s “watch list” and that Gabriel “likes” Elizabeth better. Why give Gabriel more ammunition to hurt him? The only answer I see is Philip lost control, and his emotions overtook his actions. But he’s trained to do just the opposite and we’ve seen him succeed very well elsewhere just about every time. Why this time was he unable to control his emotions, if indeed that’s the answer? Maybe he loves Paige more than anything else? The whole thing just didn't seem to fit.

I think its a simple matter of Phillip is tired of being manipulated by Gabriel and having Gabriel think he is pulling the wool over Phillip's eyes, as if Phillip doesn't realize what he is doing. This was him telling Gabriel "I am not stupid, I know what your are doing, and I am not giving up the fight and being your patsy any further". I didn't view it as him being emotional as much as him just finally standing up for himself to Gabriel, letting him know he is well aware of how he plays both he and Elizabeth psychologically and he isn't just going to stand back and continue to let that happen

[Dev F]

It would be interesting if Philip asked Elizabeth about it. If he did she would probably have some explanation for why she did it. I was talking about this elsewhere because for Philip, his lightning bolt speech fits the pattern of him always wanting his cover to be real. Before going into that room to meet E he tore up Irina's picture and he knew he was meeting his future wife. He'd have good reason to be open to lightning bolts--and to remember himself feeling one. For E it seems not at all what we saw.

 

But maybe it is. Elizabeth's life has always belonged to the Centre but she's also always needed some illusion of control. She didn't want kids. She had them because it was an order. Yet it was she who decided to have Paige, not letting Philip touch her before that, and she held off telling him about Henry to tell herself she could have an abortion if she wanted. Maybe this was the same thing. She needed to reject somebody to give herself the illusion of choice. It's different than choosing Philip--she didn't want him either, but she chose him.

 

That definitely would be in keeping with her character, but you're right that the original flashback doesn't really play that way. Granted, we do see the events from Phillip's point of view, and thus we don't know what General Zhukov might've discussed with Elizabeth before he brought her new husband in to meet her. But once they do meet she seems to be getting the same "Here's how you two should interact" speech as Phillip does, with no indication that she's gone through this before. I guess if Gabriel's revelation turned out to be accurate, we'd have to assume that Zhukov was putting on a bit of a show for Phillip's benefit.

 

(Interestingly, now that I listen to it again, what Zhukov says to Liz is, "You'll be less likely to make a slip one day if there's no other version of this man you're hiding away at the back of your mind." Which I suppose one could interpret as a veiled reference to the other "Phillip" whom she rejected, if one felt like doing the writers' retconning for them. :p )

[sistermagpie]

Agree, but I still think it was more of a "Dueling pistols at dawn?" moment.

"OK, Gabe, you really want to take me on? Fine."

But that makes me even wonder how he thinks the dueling pistols is going to work. I mean, of course Gabriel can take him on. Philip's pretty helpleszs or has been. So far Philip seems to be doing nothing either way, so the stand off semi almost less like a stand off or standing up for himself than just a declarion of the truth as he saw it. Or like saying he can't do anything about any of this bUT he doesn't have pretend he's not being screwed.

Kind of like Paige is s2 when she says her parents get to say what she can and can't do but they can't tell her what to think. At the time someone said that was a very Soviet sentiment she was actually saying.

I do keep waiting or expecting Philip to get into a more proactive place but I don't know what that could be.

[kikaha]

Who, when push comes to shove, is more important to the KGB?  The aging handler, or the incredibly well placed, and effective, young, deeply embedded operations officer? 

I think the question to the KGB is whether Phillip is still on board at all.  He is openly defying one of their most important orders (about Paige), and saying he chooses his family before his nation and his mission.  He's balking to move forward with Kimmie.  At the exact same time, his most important asset is compromised, putting the entire ring at risk. 

 

Could Phillip go rogue?  That should be the big question inside the halls of the Kremlin at this point, even without the inside knowledge we the viewers have about him, 

[Sienna]

I agree, Martha is in denial mode. Or at least, rather than wising up, she's rewriting the romance in her head to include what she's learned about "Clark". "Oh my God, it ALL makes sense, now! He's got IMPORTANT SECRETS!" and decides to view it as mysterious and exciting.

 

What else has she got? The other option would mean admitting to herself that she's betrayed her country, and now risks serious legal repercussions, all for someone who was only using her. Even if she gets away with what she did, what would she have left? An office drone job, and a depressing apartment to come home to, alone. Of course she's going to cast her lot as a partner in crime to her Secret Agent Man.

[dr pepper]

I think Gabriel's comment was a very shrewd double-edged sword. On the one hand, he's reassuring Phillip: Elizabeth always loved you in her own way. But at the same time he's deflating Phillip's romantic ideas about the new state of his marriage: Elizabeth always loved you -- what's happening now isn't anything special or different. "Elizabeth loves you. I love you," he says, as if that's the same thing, as if it's all part of the normal way spies get along with other spies.

 

Or, to paraphrase another character in the episode, You don't want a new heart. What would you do with it?

 

Oh, now you've set me off. Jacob from TWP would have spun 2 pages of philosophical commentary out of that. Why isn't he on this site, dammit?

[shura]

Who, when push comes to shove, is more important to the KGB?  The aging handler, or the incredibly well placed, and effective, young, deeply embedded operations officer?

 

You make it sound like the choice is between a useless old geezer and the jewel of the Evil Empire. This officer seems to be declaring more and more that he reserves the right to pick and choose which KGB directions to follow and which not, though. I would actually like to see Philip suffer some repercussions there, it could be interesting to see what the writers can come up with. So far Philip and Elizabeth pretty much have been getting their way whenever they defied the Center.

 

I watched the episode again last night, it's very interesting to watch Martha when she explains to Clark who Gene is. She seems to be purposely averting her eyes as if she is not comfortable. That particular part of their conversation does not look natural at all. She is definitely playing something with her volunteering the mail robot info.

[pasdetrois]

Show's getting more ham-handed. I'm feeling the manipulation. But am still enjoying it.

 

Maybe Martha's so furious at Clark's betrayal that she's going to try to bring him down.

Edited March 28, 2015 by pasdetrois

[sistermagpie]

I think the question to the KGB is whether Phillip is still on board at all.  He is openly defying one of their most important orders (about Paige), and saying he chooses his family before his nation and his mission.  He's balking to move forward with Kimmie.  At the exact same time, his most important asset is compromised, putting the entire ring at risk.

 

 

To be fair, he's not failing to move forward with Kimmie. He has moved forward--the bug's in place and he's going over to change the tapes. He's just still trying to do it without sleeping with her--for now. He's even mentioned that if it drags on and she gets however much older that part wouldn't be a problem. So it's not like he's defying an order and the Centre isn't getting their info, it's more like he and Gabriel know they're in a symbolic battle over the ethics of it, which echo the ethics of the Paige situation and show Philip in general taking a stand. Claudia back in S1 said the Centre was "losing" Elizabeth, which wasn't true, but from Claudia's pov it was maybe a similar thing. She saw Elizabeth having things outside the Centre that would interfere with her commitment.

 

Even the Paige situation is still going forward. So Philip's situation is I think believably still somewhat under the table. The Centre's getting their weekly reports about Paige and their weekly info from Kimmie's dad. The Centre's still pushing him ahead on Martha despite knowing what happened. So while his defiance certainly isn't nothing--it is dangerous--it's more like a potential problem that's currently on Gabriel's level more than the Centre's. The only order he's defied is telling Paige who he is, and Elizabeth is taking care of that--and Philip isn't stopping her.

 

That particular part of their conversation does not look natural at all. She is definitely playing something with her volunteering the mail robot info.

 

 

She could be ashamed at intentionally putting Gene in the sites of whatever Philip works for.

Edited March 28, 2015 by sistermagpie

[RedHawk]

Martha is also indirectly responsible for Betty's murder.

[PinkRibbons]

I actually expected this response from Martha because of two things the producers are constantly repeating -- whenever anyone brought up Philip and Martha they would mention that in real life, these actual secretaries (and a good number of them!) seduced by spies would refuse to believe it for a shockingly long time. One has to assume that they noticed things were wrong or off -- even had the truth told to them point-blank -- but chose to rewrite the situation in their heads to make their husbands out as heros or fellow victims. The other thing the producers say is "when in doubt, go with what actually would have happened". Well, sometimes reality is unrealistic.

[sistermagpie]

Well, sometimes reality is unrealistic.

 

Yeah, this comes up almost every time there's a con of any kind. From the outside it always seems just nonsensical, but people believe even stranger things than Martha. I was talking to somebody else about this and they felt the same way, that they just didn't think somebody would fall for the kind of game Clark was playing, that Martha would have known she was being manipulated. But that's not true for everyone. Plus, maybe more importantly, this is a step by step process. If Martha proved unable to be manipulated at an earlier point it wouldn't have gone any farther, but each time Philip pushed for more she gave it to him. It's not that she has no will of her own--she doesn't just do what he says and never question anything. But she's proved over and over to be willing to work with the guy to make his lies more believable to herself.

 

The very fact that she went home to give Clark a chance to explain himself said she was open to having it explained. She shied away from her first cue to come clean and sided with Clark instead. Now she's complicit--and she couldn't have known she wouldn't be. (Unless of course she is conning Clark, then she's doing the opposite. But I think they're going for the sadder choice.)

Edited March 28, 2015 by sistermagpie

[Umbelina]

You make it sound like the choice is between a useless old geezer and the jewel of the Evil Empire. This officer seems to be declaring more and more that he reserves the right to pick and choose which KGB directions to follow and which not, though. I would actually like to see Philip suffer some repercussions there, it could be interesting to see what the writers can come up with. So far Philip and Elizabeth pretty much have been getting their way whenever they defied the Center.

 

I watched the episode again last night, it's very interesting to watch Martha when she explains to Clark who Gene is. She seems to be purposely averting her eyes as if she is not comfortable. That particular part of their conversation does not look natural at all. She is definitely playing something with her volunteering the mail robot info.

Not exactly a "useless old geezer" and obviously that geezer is pushing for exactly what the Kremlin or KGB wants, Paige.

 

I do think embedded operations officers, like Philip, are also supposed to make calls themselves.  They aren't robots, their experience and "on the ground" senses are usually taken into account.  That wouldn't apply with Paige obviously though.  However, Philip is just as capable as Gabriel, and much more well placed.  He COULD take Gabriel out anytime, it's not as if the KGB could bring in a forensic team to investigate. 

 

Either way though, I felt that Philip was directly challenging Gabriel there, much as Elizabeth did to Claudia.  The KGB doesn't want to lose two such well placed officers, especially since they already lost two last year.

 

I just think it gets complicated, and that scene to me was very hostile.

 

Interesting how no one is really getting along or following along with exactly what their bosses want or say right now. 

Arkady and the Minister of Transportation.

Stan and his bosses about Nina.

Philip and Gabriel.

Oleg and HIS bosses about Nina.

Martha...or IS she?  bwah ha ha

[shura]

She could be ashamed at intentionally putting Gene in the sites of whatever Philip works for.

 

Yes, that's what I mean - Martha is using Gene in whatever plan it is she is executing. She is not refusing to believe her senses and lying to herself that everything is going to be all right if she just goes with the flow. She is actively working on something.

 

Another thing that stood out to me when I was rewatching was how Elizabeth said "Russia" answering Betty's question about where her mother is. Elizabeth has been well-trained indeed. No Soviet Russian referred to their country as Russia, it was the Soviet Union to them. For example, when Oleg is talking to Zinaida, he tells her "you will return to the Union" (I know the subtitles had it as "to Russia", but that's not what he said). I loved it, it was very authentic.

 

Speaking of Stan and Oleg's Zinaida adventure, were they hoping she would just go ahead and tell Oleg "relax, comrade, I'm actually a spy"? And now the plan is what, that Oleg will hear at the rezidentura that she reported the encounter to the KGB? And if he doesn't hear anything, then "oh well, this is it, we tried"? Well, at least Oleg got to whack Stan on the head and scored a free beer out of it.

 

He COULD take Gabriel out anytime, it's not as if the KGB could bring in a forensic team to investigate.

 

Oh, you mean literally take him out, not "get this guy out of here and send in another Kate" kind of ultimatum? I haven't thought of that. It would probably cause another mafia war between the KGB and the FBI if Gabriel just disappeared and nobody knew who killed him. I don't think Philip would do that.

Edited March 28, 2015 by shura

[sistermagpie]

Another thing that stood out to me when I was rewatching was how Elizabeth said "Russia" answering Betty's question about where her mother is. Elizabeth has been well-trained indeed. No Soviet Russian referred to their country as Russia, it was the Soviet Union to them. For example, when Oleg is talking to Zinaida, he tells her "you will return to the Union" (I know the subtitles had it as "to Russia", but that's not what he said). I loved it, it was very authentic.

 

 

Yes, and while many people felt some hesitation before she said it because she was revealing something she usually doesn't say out loud, I also felt her choosing her words to use what Betty would say, which would probably be Russia a little more bit more than SU. It's like when she called the Rezidentura one time and asked for Arkady I like to think her hesitation was in choosing whether to pronounce it like a Russian, pronounce it like an American who knew how to pronounce it or pronounce it like...well, like Stan. She went with Stan. ETA: Wait, I think she may have gone with American who knows how to pronounce it. Can't remember!

 

I love that they translated Oleg as saying the union. The producers have said that they usually get people praising the translation but then they'll get one person who says it's terrible.

 

It's interesting that when talking to each other Elizabeth and Philip talk to other agents they say motherland, like translating a word they might use in Russian.I asked a Russian person about that term since sometimes they say Fatherland and she said Fatherland is used when you're speaking a high style, like the national anthem, but motherland is more everyday speech.

 

Interesting how no one is really getting along or following along with exactly what their bosses want or say right now.

 

 

Yeah, and I seem to remember another period--can't remember if it was last year, but maybe, where it seemed like there too they were showing the guys at the Rezidentura, especially, being very independent thinkers despite their jobs. There was just a lot of moments where you saw individuals making choices for personal reasons. I don't know if it's accurate from personal experience but it seems very realistic that people who live in a society that the audience might think of as super strict just have an understanding of when and how they can speak up for themselves. It's not just everyone doing whatever anyone else tells them.

Edited March 28, 2015 by sistermagpie

[Umbelina]

<snip>

 

 

Oh, you mean literally take him out, not "get this guy out of here and send in another Kate" kind of ultimatum? I haven't thought of that. It would probably cause another mafia war between the KGB and the FBI if Gabriel just disappeared and nobody knew who killed him. I don't think Philip would do that.

 

Or not.  It could be ambiguous, look like an accident, and of course they would suspect, but proving it would be more problematic.  He's old, he could have a heart attack, just like Betty.   Or simply disappear, causing the KGB to suspect the CIA or FBI had him.  Lots of possibilities.

 

That IS how I read the scene though, gloves off, dick measuring, "You REALLY want this to be the field on which you die?" 

 

HELL!  What is that saying and what book/movie is it from?  Grrr. 

 

Bottom line though?  Handlers are a dime a dozen when compared to successfully embedded operations officers.  Advantage?  Philip.  On the other hand, the KGB/Kremlin REALLY wants a second generation spy, Paige, since the other kid is dead.  Advantage?  KGB.

Edited March 28, 2015 by Umbelina

[kikaha]

It surprises me a bit that the KGB did not make sure P&E groomed Paige as a deep-cover spy from the get-go.  Given its importance, why would they leave that to chance?  Why wait till Paige is a young adult to start the process? 

 

fwiw, I think all hell is going to break loose in the last few episodes this season. 

[RedHawk]

Interesting that in "Divestment" Philip used "I love you" duplicitously on Martha, and in this episode it's Gabriel using it on Philip. I have a friend who recently told me about a woman who has been a sort of nemesis to him, and how recently she said, "I love you" to him. He said that he thought about it a moment and then said to her, "I know what it feels like to be loved." In a way, Philip was telling Gabriel that he knows what it feels like to be loved (and no, he doesn't buy that Gabriel loves him) and also that he knows how to love, and that he will protect those he loves. It really shocked me that Gabriel used that word, and I was so glad it finally pushed Philip over the line.

[Chaos Theory]

Martha gone into FULL denial mode

 

 

Actually I think its the reverse.  Denial means you don't accept things for what they are.  I think she does.  She accepts that she is being lied to and that Clark is not who he says he is buuuuuut she believes or wants to believe he loves her.  I think she accepts that she is in a fucked up situation and is just playing the hand she is dealt.  

 

It surprises me a bit that the KGB did not make sure P&E groomed Paige as a deep-cover spy from the get-go

 

 

It might not have been the plan from the get go.  If I remember my history correctly no one expected the cold war to last as long as it did.  Paige and Henry were supposed to be nothing more then covers for P&E.  P&E had two children because American parents typically have 2 or 3 children.  They wanted to blend and children help you blend.   It was only later that someone might have seen the value of using them as something more.  

 

Could Phillip go rogue?

 

 

I've had that thought myself and it works as a storyline if the show has a endgame in mind.  I've mentioned in previous posts that I don't think the show is going to continue for ten years but instead maybe another two or three and if that is the case Philip as a Rogue or a double agent  is an interesting premise.  

Edited March 29, 2015 by Chaos Theory

[Umbelina]

There was just an article out, maybe it's in the media thread?  They said that they have 6 years planned out.

[TimWil]

If I was voting in the Guest Actress in a Drama Series category for the Emmy Awards I'd have a very tough time deciding between Lois Smith's wonderful performance in this or Cicely Tyson's in How To Get Away With Murder.

[rubyred]

If I was voting in the Guest Actress in a Drama Series category for the Emmy Awards I'd have a very tough time deciding between Lois Smith's wonderful performance in this or Cicely Tyson's in How To Get Away With Murder.

I thought the same thing, as soon as that scene ended. Octogenarians duking it out at the Emmys.

 

So many ambivalent feelings about this episode. I think mostly it just felt like the most self-consciously "written." The two-hander between E and Betty, while wonderful, seemed more writerly than natural to me. And I've always been impressed with the dead-on use of dialogue in this show. But the scene was amazing, thank you Lois Smith, so I can't regret that.

 

I can regret that E is apparently "softening", but not because she's no longer a believer, but because a random old lady reminded her of her mother. I also didn't understand why she went to bat to save Todd last week, when she didn't hesitate a nanosecond to put a bullet between the eyes of his compatriot with the bread van.

 

The first two seasons did such a good job of worldbuilding. I understood the world, the stakes, and the characters. But now things are just stretching credulity. This Nina subplot is just...no. It undermines everything they've established about the KGB and her likely punishment. Shoot, I was surprised that dude she betrayed was still alive to run the facility Bakalov is being forced to work in. And I think Annet is great too but come on, don't compromise the narrative this way, guys!

 

I'm worried this is what's going on with Martha, too. I think Alison Wright is a-ma-zing but Phillip shouldn't unilaterally make the call that Martha live and everyone just say, whatever you say, dude. I can't believe Centre wouldn't remove this risk. Centre murdered a woman and took her baby and returned it to Russia, and she hadn't even done anything to betray the USSR. Centre don't play.

 

But weirdly I think the thing that's bothering me the most is that Martha is colluding in setting up Gene to take the fall. I hate that. I always hate the collateral damage but this sticking in my craw. So much for Poor Martha, more like Poor Gene.

[kikaha]

It might not have been the plan from the get go.  If I remember my history correctly no one expected the cold war to last as long as it did.  Paige and Henry were supposed to be nothing more then covers for P&E.  P&E had two children because American parents typically have 2 or 3 children.  They wanted to blend and children help you blend.   It was only later that someone might have seen the value of using them as something more.   

 

The cold war had been going strong for decades when P&E came to America, with no end in sight.  The Soviets could not match the US militarily then.  They also knew full well how weak their economy was compared to the US.  Whatever their popular propaganda about communism and its scientific inevitability, they knew victory -- if it ever came -- would be hard fought and take time.  So it would surprise (shock?) me if they didn't view P&E's children as gold.

 

btw, Soviet economic failures brought the empire to its knees.  They couldn't supply guns and butter.  It's a chilling thought that both Russia and China have learned from that mistake.  They may not lose the cold war after all.    

[FormerMod-a1]

When did Philip and Elizabeth get placed in the US?  THe 60s?  If so the cold war would have been 2 decades into it, max.  And even then I can see folks on both sides not thinking it would last another 1.5 decades (at this point in the show).  So I have no problem with not grooming the kids from the get go.

[Ellaria]

The first two seasons did such a good job of worldbuilding. I understood the world, the stakes, and the characters. But now things are just stretching credulity. This Nina subplot is just...no. It undermines everything they've established about the KGB and her likely punishment. Shoot, I was surprised that dude she betrayed was still alive to run the facility Bakalov is being forced to work in. And I think Annet is great too but come on, don't compromise the narrative this way, guys!

 

I'm not a fan of the "Spies That Love Nina" subplot either. Why would Oleg risk everything to bring Nina back to the U.S? What happens then? Will Oleg, Stan and Nina move in together in a Cold War version of "Three's Company?" I hoped for so much more from this character.

 

Stan continues to contribute little. Not sure why he has taken a left turn out of the main plot. The big reveal in this episode: he does crossword puzzles. The writing for this character baffles me.

 

I actually expected this response from Martha because of two things the producers are constantly repeating -- whenever anyone brought up Philip and Martha they would mention that in real life, these actual secretaries (and a good number of them!) seduced by spies would refuse to believe it for a shockingly long time. One has to assume that they noticed things were wrong or off -- even had the truth told to them point-blank -- but chose to rewrite the situation in their heads to make their husbands out as heros or fellow victims. The other thing the producers say is "when in doubt, go with what actually would have happened". Well, sometimes reality is unrealistic.

 

 

I watched the episode again last night, it's very interesting to watch Martha when she explains to Clark who Gene is. She seems to be purposely averting her eyes as if she is not comfortable. That particular part of their conversation does not look natural at all. She is definitely playing something with her volunteering the mail robot info.

 

I love the scenes with Martha. I'm not quite sure where she stands. If I had to guess, I would say that she is definitely playing something during the dinner scene. It is a dramatic departure from their last scene together: the home cooked meal, the pom pom sweater, the "over-sharing" of information. 

 

I have a general question: how does Clark let Martha know that will be coming home on a particular evening? He can't call her at work. How far in advance does he make plans?

 

Finally, Hans can leave at any time. 

Edited March 29, 2015 by Ellaria Sand

[BW Manilowe]

When did Philip and Elizabeth get placed in the US? THe 60s? If so the cold war would have been 2 decades into it, max. And even then I can see folks on both sides not thinking it would last another 1.5 decades (at this point in the show). So I have no problem with not grooming the kids from the get go.

I can't remember if the "arrival in DC" flashback was timestamped or not, but for some reason I wanna say Philip & Elizabeth arrived in the US in 1963. That sounds "right" to me, for some reason. And I can't remember if it's 'cause we saw them watching/listening to a Kennedy (or LBJ) speech or not.

Didn't we also figure Paige was supposed to have been born in 1968? If they're in 1983 in the show now (which I think they are), & Paige's birthday we saw earlier this season was her 15th (& I think it was), then I think her being born in 1968 works (& I think Henry was probably supposed to have been born at least in 1970, for that matter; he's at least 2 years, maybe 3, younger than Paige).

[stillshimpy]

So two things:  In talking to my husband about the "Why would Arkady in anyway risk bringing down the wrath of a friend of Andropov and a powerful man in his own right, in the form of Pa Oleg?" I've been mulling over.  

 

What we came up with was two things, one of which was discussed here -- it's possible that Arkady is not okay with the powerful men in the communist party granting favors and pulling strings, because that's not supposed to be the ways things work.   

 

However, nobody who gets to be the station chief in the U.S.  (a primo posting if ever there was one) is likely to be that "I'm a purist about communism" simply because it didn't really work like that.  The family of party chiefs had better lives.  The Olympic athletes (as long as they performed well) had better lives.  Arkady is a recipient of what is a better life and someone promoted him to that position.  

 

The only thing I can think of is that Arkady is waiting for Oleg's dad to sweeten the deal somehow and specifically.  A better posting for a brother, perhaps he wants to be posted to someplace more exotic (that one is doubtful because he really has a very coveted posting).  Nobody in that embassy/station got there by happenstance.  

 

The other thing is that I know the show-runner cite the real life secretaries who just wouldn't believe forever and ever, amen about their beloved husbands/lovers/friends.  However, Clark did tell Martha there is more going on than she understands when in answer to "who are you?"  he said basically, "I will protect you, but that's all I'm spilling right now, is that enough?"  and Martha apparently decided to answer "yes" to the extent that she's going to do what she always did, which was telling Clark what is going on in the office and trust that he is doing right with the information.  Makes me want to scream, but there we go, I suppose. 

 

 

 

But that makes me even wonder how he thinks the dueling pistols is going to work. I mean, of course Gabriel can take him on. Philip's pretty helpleszs or has been. So far Philip seems to be doing nothing either way, so the stand off semi almost less like a stand off or standing up for himself than just a declarion of the truth as he saw it. Or like saying he can't do anything about any of this bUT he doesn't have pretend he's not being screwed.

 

Elizabeth squarely and completely kicked Claudia's ass when Claudia crossed a line with her and told her to show The Center her face by way of Elizabeth's message to them.  Gabriel has already been removed once as their handler.  Claudia was too after infuriating Elizabeth. 

 

Gabriel isn't in such a mighty position unless Phillip stops delivering.  Phillip is still delivering.  He's not on board with the Paige plan, but he's not actively trying to stop it either.  He didn't grab Paige and run for Brazil, or wherever. These people own a freaking travel agency, he's going to have the ins and outs of travel down on top of everything else.  

Gabriel is the person who is failing.  Gabriel is the person not delivering a compliant Phillip -- who is incredibly good at this job and still doing it, he grumbles, but he does it -- and Phillip letting Gabriel know, "Cut the shit, it's not working, at all" doesn't imperil Phillip who delivers all that he is asked to deliver, even though he has doubts, he still works for the cause.   

 

If Gabriel fails to turn one of their most successful assets, trained for years to be a flawless fully integrated spy, it's Gabriel whose ass is very fully on the line.  

 

Arkady has a sweet posting, but so does Gabriel and his Frusen Glasen gobbling ways.  Phillip throwing down the "not working, old man" gauntlet is a way of informing Gabriel, "You, Gabriel, have failed.  The Center just really digs the hell out of that when it goes down.  Trust me.  Ask Claudia.  You have bombed, you untrustworthy motherfucker.  Enjoy the Siberian winter, or wherever it is that The Center sends their failures.  I'll likely see you in hell, but you. have. failed."  

 

And Phillip delivers so well and so often that he could call that Martha wasn't going to turn him in.  Somehow I don't think The Center is actually going to be all "Kill the Phillip! Kill the Phillip!" in that scenario and I think the reason Phillip stopped playing the game with Gabriel is that he actually knows that.  Gabriel's attempt to manipulate him with supposed son only resulted in Phillip confiding in Elizabeth (who is on the opposite side of the Paige equation, yet he still trusts her, Elizabeth asking Gabriel to remove Supposed Mischa from harm's way informs Gabriel of that...that's got to be a big part of why Gabriel pulled the "Elizabeth and I both love you...." because it had been made quite apparent that Phillip had trusted Elizabeth more than he was trusting Gabriel.)  <---even I am marveling at the terrifying sentence structure there.  I think I set a new record for myself.   

 

Gabriel is digging into a nice, heaping pile of "You're failing, Old Man, and you sir, the good communist are supposed to report this moment to The Center.  Won't that be fun?  Wonder who they will back?  I have to get back to juggling the three major assets I always have going.  How many have you got? Oh that's right, one less than you used to."   

Edited March 29, 2015 by stillshimpy

[RedHawk]

Didn't we also figure Paige was supposed to have been born in 1968? If they're in 1983 in the show now (which I think they are), & Paige's birthday we saw earlier this season was her 15th (& I think it was), then I think her being born in 1968 works (& I think Henry was probably supposed to have been born at least in 1970, for that matter; he's at least 2 years, maybe 3, younger than Paige).

 

 

Yes, it's now January 1983 on the show and Paige is 15. We saw Henry's 11th birthday in the Season 2(?) opener. We also found out the birth month, maybe it was early fall? I thought from flashbacks that P&E came to the U.S. in 1964, but could have been '63. 

[sistermagpie]

I'm worried this is what's going on with Martha, too. I think Alison Wright is a-ma-zing but Phillip shouldn't unilaterally make the call that Martha live and everyone just say, whatever you say, dude. I can't believe Centre wouldn't remove this risk. Centre murdered a woman and took her baby and returned it to Russia, and she hadn't even done anything to betray the USSR. Centre don't play.

 

 

That woman was the wife of an Illegal but not an asset. Martha is both (somewhat) and she's already protected Clark to the point of not immediately confessing, so I think the KGB can just be agreeing with Philip than simply letting him choose. Martha has value to the KGB so they have a stake in keeping her in place.

 

Yes, it's now January 1983 on the show and Paige is 15. We saw Henry's 11th birthday in the Season 2(?) opener. We also found out the birth month, maybe it was early fall? I thought from flashbacks that P&E came to the U.S. in 1964, but could have been '63.

 

 

It was 1965 when they arrived. Paige was born in 1968. I forget the year they gave for Elizabeth meeting with Zhukov when pregnant with Henry but I think when it started he was 9 and Paige was 13.

 

Gabriel is the person who is failing.  Gabriel is the person not delivering a compliant Phillip -- who is incredibly good at this job and still doing it, he grumbles, but he does it -- and Phillip letting Gabriel know, "Cut the shit, it's not working, at all" doesn't imperil Phillip who delivers all that he is asked to deliver, even though he has doubts, he still works for the cause.

 

 

This I totally agree with. "Stand off" just didn't seem right to me because to me that required Gabriel to be acting as the personification of the KGB that Philip was defying rather than just Gabriel himself. Maybe I wasn't understanding what Umbelina meant by "the hill you die on"--I thought that was supposed to be a message to the Centre itself in that scenario. But I was maybe just misunderstanding what she meant. Because this is exactly what I see--it's Philip not endangering himself because he doesn't have to personally love and trust Gabriel. The KGB is getting the CIA stuff and Kimmie whether or not Philip has personally submitted to sleeping with Kimmie. He's finding a way around it. And even with Paige, the Centre's still getting their weekly updates and manipulation from Elizabeth even if Philip is silently fuming about it.

 

The only iffy thing about him saying this to Gabriel is that any time he offers up what he's really thinking and feeling he's giving Gabriel something he can use.

 

[Umbelina]

Yes, that's exactly what I meant, but stillshrimpy probably said it better. 

 

Anyone remember where "the hill you die on" comes from?  It's driving me crazy.

[sistermagpie]

Anyone remember where "the hill you die on" comes from?  It's driving me crazy.

 

 

I've been trying to remember it--I've heard the expression IRL so maybe it's in more than one thing.

 

I think you did say it clearly, I just had something different in my head and missed it!

[txhorns79]

Whatever their popular propaganda about communism and its scientific inevitability, they knew victory -- if it ever came -- would be hard fought and take time.  So it would surprise (shock?) me if they didn't view P&E's children as gold.

 

I think trying to groom American children from the start would have been extremely difficult.  Short of Elizabeth and Phillip isolating their kids entirely from other American children, little kids talk and say things, even when their parents tell them not to.  They aren't predictable and it seems like a very risky proposition to trust them with that huge a secret at such a young age.    

[BW Manilowe]

That woman was the wife of an Illegal but not an asset. Martha is both (somewhat) and she's already protected Clark to the point of not immediately confessing, so I think the KGB can just be agreeing with Philip than simply letting him choose. Martha has value to the KGB so they have a stake in keeping her in place.

It was 1965 when they arrived. Paige was born in 1968. I forget the year they gave for Elizabeth meeting with Zhukov when pregnant with Henry but I think when it started he was 9 and Paige was 13.

This I totally agree with. "Stand off" just didn't seem right to me because to me that required Gabriel to be acting as the personification of the KGB that Philip was defying rather than just Gabriel himself. Maybe I wasn't understanding what Umbelina meant by "the hill you die on"--I thought that was supposed to be a message to the Centre itself in that scenario. But I was maybe just misunderstanding what she meant. Because this is exactly what I see--it's Philip not endangering himself because he doesn't have to personally love and trust Gabriel. The KGB is getting the CIA stuff and Kimmie whether or not Philip has personally submitted to sleeping with Kimmie. He's finding a way around it. And even with Paige, the Centre's still getting their weekly updates and manipulation from Elizabeth even if Philip is silently fuming about it.

The only iffy thing about him saying this to Gabriel is that any time he offers up what he's really thinking and feeling he's giving Gabriel something he can use.

I'm on board with almost everything I bolded from your post above. If Paige was born in 1968, she would've had to have been 13 in S1 at the time the series started. Especially if this is S3 (should be 2 years later) & she's already turned 15, which we saw. We just didn't see her 13th birthday 'cause it happened before the Pilot took place. That's my wank & I'm sticking to it.

What I'm not sure I'm on board with is Henry being 9 when the show started. Mostly because...

You remember that scene in the Pilot where Philip & Henry attended what seemed to be some "extracurricular" type presentation, at what (I thought, anyway) was supposed to be Henry's school & not just a bigger space they used because of the crowd size? It was supposed to be a speech or some other sort of program by the astronaut who was the American Commander on the joint US/Soviet Skylab space mission.

Anyway... At the beginning of that scene, they had a "title" on the screen that, as I remember, identified the setting as "Falls Church Middle School". Assuming that was Henry's school, if he was 9 at the time, he'd have had to be gifted enough to have skipped a couple of grades to go there.

You're normally in about the 4th grade when you're 9. I was, anyway (maybe partly due to my summer birthday). To be in Middle School in Falls Church, you'd have to be in 6th, 7th, &/or 8th grades (I checked the "Education" section of the city's Wikipedia page) &, probably, somewhere around 11-13 years old.

Henry's smart, whether or not Philip & Elizabeth acknowledge it in the show; but I'm not sure he's smart enough to skip 2 grades at once, if he was in Middle School in S1. Plus, you'd think there'd have been some reference to him skipping grades in school (if he did) & I don't remember there being any.

Anyway... That Middle School reference that seemed to be attached to Henry in S1 is why I'm not necessarily on board with him only being 9 then. (Too bad we can't reference the old board; I'm almost sure that had Henry's correct, then-current, age in it somewhere)

[sistermagpie]

Thanks BW! I got Henry's age only from something I think I read somewhere so he could absolutely have already been 10 at least in the pilot. It would make sense--I've always thought of him and Paige as 3 years apart. He could now still be 12 because he just hasn't hit his 13th birthday.

[beeble]

ETA yea Lois smith is 84. And looks it, no way was she a WWII bride if this is 1983. She'd have been 43 and her husband too old to be in active duty unless he were a general or something.

 

I agree with everyone that Lois Smith could pass for 64ish.  The 84 we're seeing is 2015's version of the age. In 1983 people had smoking, Reaganonics, and disco to age them much more than now.  And she killed that scene.

 

I guess mailbots had a special section where FBI agents can crawl into and discuss high-level secrets.

[Dev F]

I can regret that E is apparently "softening", but not because she's no longer a believer, but because a random old lady reminded her of her mother. I also didn't understand why she went to bat to save Todd last week, when she didn't hesitate a nanosecond to put a bullet between the eyes of his compatriot with the bread van.

 

It wasn't random, though. Elizabeth's decisions were an integral part of the story being told in each episode. Last episode was about people deciding what things they can live without and what they'll go to the wall to hold onto, and Elizabeth spared the kid's life because she decided that protecting Phillip's feelings (because the boy reminded him of his supposed soldier son) was more important than following every operational precaution.

 

And this episode was about how people react to that moment when their life seems destined to change forever -- and how far they'll go to make sure it stays the same. So Elizabeth suddenly confronting an old woman whom she finds it hard to kill is part of the same thematic tapestry that sees Martha figuring out how to react to the fact that her entire life is a lie, or Hans struggling with the notion that he won't be able to serve the cause as a spy after all.

 

And it's not just a convenient development in service of an episodic theme, because like those storylines it builds on what's come before. Elizabeth already broke protocol for personal reasons last episode, so the question of how far she'll bend the rules for her own sake is already on her mind. And on the other hand the development is pushing the storyline forward, since another point of the episode seems to be that our desperation to keep things the same actually brings about the sort of change we're desperate to avert. Thus, Hans becomes a brutal murderer because he doesn't want to give up on being a righteous freedom-fighter, Martha becomes an active participant in Clark's treachery because she's clinging so desperately to the idea that he's her loving husband -- and an old woman is murdered because she comes into the office in the middle of the night to feel connected to her long-dead husband. And presumably Elizabeth's life will change as well, because in spite of her hesitation she did her duty and murdered an innocent old woman.

[stillshimpy]

I guess mailbots had a special section where FBI agents can crawl into and discuss high-level secrets.

 

I'm still giggling over that visual :-) 

[BW Manilowe]

Grantland talks about this episode. They also note a nice bit of wordplay from a character that I don't think anyone here caught (I didn't catch it on viewing, but it was cool reading about it here). I don't think anyone caught it since nobody's mentioned it yet--but when you read what was said, hopefully you'll think it was as cool as I did.

http://grantland.com/hollywood-prospectus/crime-and-punishment-the-americans-soars-in-its-brutal-third-season/

[paramitch]

Yes, and in different ways. Philip cares about killing random people, assuming that they all have lives they want to live. If somebody's just doing his job, he feels he's done evil killing them. With Elizabeth she finally met an American who wasn't betraying their country who yet somehow managed to remind her of her mother, and that freaked her out. I think it's interesting that she went to Philip to tell him about the woman. I don't think she exactly wanted him to tell her not to kill her--she probably knew in her heart that now that she'd decided to have a chat with the woman that was impossible. But I think she instinctively figured Philip was the person who would understand how she felt--and he did. It's not like he brushed her off, he just gently said she was in the wrong place at the wrong time. She needed the push and he gave it to her.

I do think it's incredibly important that last season, Philip was the one trying desperately to avoid killing innocents needlessly (the poor man who died of exposure tied to the tree always stands out to me -- his fear was just so palpable), and this season Elizabeth is subtly being shown to perhaps try to lower the body count where possible (the South African boy, Betty, etc.). Sure, she's still cold-blooded in most cases (the poor guy under the car) but I like that she's not a Terminator.

 

I think Gabriel's comment was a very shrewd double-edged sword. On the one hand, he's reassuring Phillip: Elizabeth always loved you in her own way. But at the same time he's deflating Phillip's romantic ideas about the new state of his marriage: Elizabeth always loved you -- what's happening now isn't anything special or different. "Elizabeth loves you. I love you," he says, as if that's the same thing, as if it's all part of the normal way spies get along with other spies.

 

Or, to paraphrase another character in the episode, You don't want a new heart. What would you do with it?

Beautiful catch, there. I definitely think the parallel you draw is what Gabriel was intending there. And love is  a powerful motivator -- Elizabeth and Philip are both incredibly isolated in their way. Gabriel does come across as very fatherly, and it is one of the few cases where they can go, relax, and simply be who they actually are.

 

Also, Stan is betraying his oath and his country by colluding with a KGB agent for his own goals.  I don't feel sorry for him anymore. At all.

I don't quite agree that Stan is a traitor -- yet. I think he has always skirted the line and that he's still doing so. I'd actually say the opposite -- he now knows that he cannot and will not betray his country for Nina, so he's trying to explore other options that would enable him to save her while still keeping him from crossing a line he can't forgive himself for.

 

I didn’t understand Philip’s speech in the sense of why an extremely sophisticated and highly trained spy would betray such a fundamental emotional weakness to, and essentially an antipathy toward, the one person who’s best positioned to do him harm. Yes, Gabriel failed him in a very personal and duplicitous manner. But they’re both in the business of duplicity and personal betrayal. I get why Philip’s pissed – but not why did he broadcast his displeasure to Gabriel. Philip already knows he’s likely on Gabriel’s “watch list” and that Gabriel “likes” Elizabeth better. Why give Gabriel more ammunition to hurt him? The only answer I see is Philip lost control

I believed Philip's outburst, but I also don't think it was quite as high-stakes as some other posters do -- I don't think it was any kind of a line in the sand. I think Philip as an asset is pretty safe (he knows exactly how valuable he is), and that he was actually banking on that safety and on the fact that Gabriel is a kind of free zone that allows him to be more blunt, to question things, blow off steam, etc. I think he was simply tired of Gabriel's rather simplistic and blatant management, and was like, "You can't handle me that way, and what you're doing is failing and also pissing me off."

 

So I think this issue is enough of a sore spot that Philip lashes out like an angry teenager. Because he's so angry and hurt by his "father." He sees that Gabriel doesn't love him, isn't looking out for him like a younger Philip naively thought he would. He's just using him as a tool and trying to make him the same kind of father with Kimmie and Paige. Philip doesn't want to be that. It's like a delayed adolescent accusation of betrayal. So it's not a strategic move, it's an emotional outburst brought on by Gabriel again trying to come at him like a father who wants to protect him when he's just trying to use and manipulate him.

I think it's interesting that Philip is more open-eyed about Gabriel while Elizabeth seems to really buy into and accept Gabriel's value to them both professionally and personally. Elizabeth totally treats him like a Dad and is more openly affectionate and smiling with him than, really, anyone else we've seen thus far. It's interesting that Gabriel's paternal approach soothes Elizabeth but (perhaps predictably) rankles Philip.

 

I think he maybe is a lot more emotional than he shows--Philip's all about the barely suppressed volcano and his eyes are already shining before he speaks.

I agree -- and Matthew Rhys's incredible ability to convey all of that emotion seething constantly below a relatively still surface is one of my favorite things about this show. I don't know how he does it.

 

Even the Paige situation is still going forward. So Philip's situation is I think believably still somewhat under the table. The Centre's getting their weekly reports about Paige and their weekly info from Kimmie's dad. The Centre's still pushing him ahead on Martha despite knowing what happened. So while his defiance certainly isn't nothing--it is dangerous--it's more like a potential problem that's currently on Gabriel's level more than the Centre's. The only order he's defied is telling Paige who he is, and Elizabeth is taking care of that--and Philip isn't stopping her.

I agree. I don't think Philip's in any danger as yet, and I actually think in some ways his outburst and honesty with Gabriel may allay Gabriel's fears about whether they are "losing" Philip. The fact that Philip is communicating openly with him and discussing orders even if he disagrees with them, to me shows that Philip is still on board; he just doesn't agree with some of the current strategic decisionmaking, which increasingly certainly seems to be about endangering the core of Philip and Elizabeth's very mission and value.

 

Interesting that in "Divestment" Philip used "I love you" duplicitously on Martha, and in this episode it's Gabriel using it on Philip. I have a friend who recently told me about a woman who has been a sort of nemesis to him, and how recently she said, "I love you" to him. He said that he thought about it a moment and then said to her, "I know what it feels like to be loved." In a way, Philip was telling Gabriel that he knows what it feels like to be loved (and no, he doesn't buy that Gabriel loves him) and also that he knows how to love, and that he will protect those he loves. It really shocked me that Gabriel used that word, and I was so glad it finally pushed Philip over the line.

Really interesting. I was shocked Gabriel used the word outright as well, but what I thought was so interesting was that even though it made Philip angry, I do think Gabriel's love and respect means something to Philip, even if he doesn't want it to. I thought it was revealing both for what it says about Gabriel and how he handles Philip and Elizabeth, as well as for how Philip reacted. Love for Elizabeth and his family is probably what motivates Philip more than anything else in the world, so it isn't something he's able to take lightly.

 

Last but not least, please tell me you guys saw this. I'm still laughing:

 

http://i.imgur.com/BPtA5Ao.gif

[stillshimpy]

Aside for the "Hill you want to die on" it's not a phrase or quote, from what I understand.  It's a military catch-phrase about objectives and choosing your battles. 

 

Kind of like SNAFU, is a military word that made its way into common usage and half the people who use it aren't aware that it stands for "Situation normal: All Fucked Up".  

[RedHawk]

Last but not least, please tell me you guys saw this. I'm still laughing:

 

 

Oh, good one! Nope, hadn't seen it. That mail robot is going to wind up taking all the Emmys.

Edited March 30, 2015 by RedHawk

[sistermagpie]

I think it's interesting that Philip is more open-eyed about Gabriel while Elizabeth seems to really buy into and accept Gabriel's value to them both professionally and personally. Elizabeth totally treats him like a Dad and is more openly affectionate and smiling with him than, really, anyone else we've seen thus far. It's interesting that Gabriel's paternal approach soothes Elizabeth but (perhaps predictably) rankles Philip.

 

 

Yes, this whole Gabriel-as-parent is fantastic! It's set up right from where they go to his apartment the first time and Elizabeth is getting hugs and is being warmly affectionate. Philip hangs back--not because he's already hostile but he's just not as trusting as she is. And she is trusting of the people who have earned that trust. A father figure from the KGB is exactly who Elizabeth looks up to completely.

 

I like that MR has said that Philip did start out seeing Gabriel as the father figure he was, but then he turned out to be one of the biggest threats to Paige, so there's a real betrayal there. I think Elizabeth might go through her own version of that. Not the rage-filled kind Philip has, maybe, but a quieter disappointment. The fact that she went to Gabriel and asked him to protect Mischa Jr. shows how much she trusts that this guy cares about them personally. Or even more so that he cares about her enough and she's earned enough of his good will that she can make this request. 

[shura]

I don't quite agree that Stan is a traitor -- yet. I think he has always skirted the line and that he's still doing so. I'd actually say the opposite -- he now knows that he cannot and will not betray his country for Nina, so he's trying to explore other options that would enable him to save her while still keeping him from crossing a line he can't forgive himself for.

 

I think it may depend on whether Zinaida is a spy or a true defector. If she is what she says she is, then what Stan is doing is most definitely treason -- he is hurting the US interests by trying (in cahoots with the KGB, no less) to send this valuable asset back to Russia. Actually, even if she is a spy, Stan's actions are probably still contrary to the US interests, which would probably be to arrest her, or to place her under surveillance to trace her connections, or something like that. Definitely not to leave it up to Stan to decide what to do with her. He has probably crossed the line into treason territory already, whether he himself sees it or not.

 

So what exactly is the relationship between an Illegal and his handler supposed to be? I've always thought that handlers are spies that find, turn and manage people like Fred, Duluth or Annelise (that is, non-spy assets). Here we have one KGB officer as a handler of another. Gabriel is certainly not Philip's commanding officer, so that's not the handler's function. If he is there simply to be a liaison and relay the Center's messages, then it's not clear why Philip feels such strong pressure to take Gabriel so seriously. He should be able to tell his handler "Message received, thanks, you can go now." Is it just their personal history that gives Gabriel's words so much weight in Philip's eyes? He still should be able to take a step back, decide that this is not working, and make a legitimate case for someone else without making it into a stand-off with Gabriel.

[henripootel]

No Soviet Russian referred to their country as Russia, it was the Soviet Union to them.

I had russian friends around this time and many since, got to know a few of them well enough that they tried to make me understand them (often while drinking) and I don't remember a single one ever saying they were 'Soviet'.  Lots of talk about the Russian soul and Russian character and whatnot, but 'Soviet' was kinda shorthand for shitty economic policy and crap we say but don't mean.  In short, 'Soviet' stuff was why we had breadlines and informers, but being Russian was how we got through it.  I could totally buy Elizabeth saying she's Russian, and I got that this distinction is meaningful.

 

And Lois Smith deserves an Emmy, like all of them.  That entire scene was completely riviting, and as good as Keri Russell was in it, Lois Smith broke my fucking heart.  

Edited March 30, 2015 by henripootel

[sistermagpie]

I could totally buy Elizabeth saying she's Russian, and I got that this distinction is meaningful.

 

 

Not speaking for the original poster, but they didn't say this. Elizabeth didn't say she was Russian, she said her mother was in Russia. They were making the point that she would have called the country the Soviet Union--just as Oleg said "You will return to the Union", not that she wouldn't have called herself or any number of things Russian. 

Edited March 30, 2015 by sistermagpie

[Umbelina]

I'm not sure how close Stan is to treason this time either.  I do know that as an FBI agent he is held to much stricter codes than an average citizen, and that unreported clandestine meetings while he colludes with a KGB agent for his own agenda is crossing the line with his employer.

 

I somehow pictured Gabriel as one step above Philip, at least on paper.  In reality though, I think Philip and Elizabeth are, at this point, considered much more valuable practically.

 

I loved that Grantland review!  I put it in the media thread, along with a few others.  The reviews of this show are generally amazing.