Lightning Rods: Gender, Race, Homosexuality and Other Sensitive Topics

[Lady Calypso]

Ok, so this reply comes from the latest episode topic, about The Flash and Arrow.

 

This is getting a bit off topic, but what I want to say about this is that these writers don't really write the female characters that well, even in Arrow season 1. So for me, I feel like Felicity is not so much as a Mary Sue but more of a stereotypical nerd who happens to be a girl. I'll say that she's grown into much more since then, but they never did bother to develop Felicity unless it was through Oliver (which I am thankful for) or through other males. But again, that can also be said of every other female character. And now that Felicity has a mom that has appeared more than once, I can see them moving away from the stereotypes. But I do agree she started out as a Mary Sue-type character, in that they did give her pretty male-fantasy-driven characteristics (bumbling geek who's good at computer stuff and is goregous and why isn't every guy after her and stands up to the main character and he takes it) but I think what made her different is that Emily herself made her her own character and she is actually not that type of character anymore.

 

All these two shows need to do is let the females have scenes with each other, instead of constant males being there. They always allow the males to get backstories, families, and plotlines pretty much right away. But the females? They have to work so much harder for it. They have to prove themselves, or something. Laurel's an exception because she was meant to be the leading lady  and led toward being the Black Canary. And look where that got her. Moira's lucky because she got her own storylines back on Arrow. But everyone else, Iris and Caitlin included, only have storylines as they pertain to males or the main character. Let's look at Iris, for example. Her story has always been about Barry. She never got a voice when she was with Eddie (and honestly, her and Eddie never got scenes; it was always, always Barry's reaction to hearing about them, or Joe's). Eddie got to speak more about their relationship than Iris did. Her scenes in season 1 didn't consist of much. She did get to become a reporter, but we never saw much from that. I loved that she saved herself when she was a damsel (or at least didn't lie down and take it like Laurel does) but she has to be made a damsel because she's the leading lady. 

 

Caitlin's story this season? It's her being a love interest to Jay. That's it. She doesn't get a story unless it's with a guy. Sorry to say, but it's true. 

 

Hell, even Patty's just there as a love interest 'Mary Sue' type character, and nothing more. Kendra's was more about her introduction to her new show. Once Legends start, we'll see how many storylines she actually gets.

 

So yeah, damn right I'm salty about the females being portrayed not great on this show. The fact that Felicity's role began as just a snarky, comic relief stereotype and has finally gotten more to do is just sad. I can see why people may not love Felicity; she can be two dimensional at times. And I'll say one of my favourite moments are her in season 2 with the Clock King storyline, because hey it may have just been about jealousy, but it was jealousy over another girl and not because of her relationship with the lead, but because of her jealousy over her role on the team. They gave her real layers there....and then took it away in favour of propping Ray and having her thing with Oliver. (And I say that as a devoted Olicity fan, but Felicity was not....portrayed well in season 3). And now I'm afraid Iris will be resorted to something similar, but they choose to forget Iris and Barry was implied to be a thing many times. They have done worse by choosing to forget about it.

[phoenics]

I was just going to say that I had hope that the whole Velocity 6 thing was going to lead to Caitlin having an accident and becoming Killer Frost... but then ... nope.

[Trini]

This falls back to an overall issue with this show in terms of character development of the supporting cast. Of course Iris should be near besties with Cisco (mostly because Cisco by nature has a warm and friendly personality and a weak spot for pretty women) and at the very least quite comfortable with Caitlin due to the sheer amount of time she would have spent around her and likely discussing Barry's condition when he was in the coma. But you've probably noticed that the show has a glaring lack of female-to-female relationships. Barry, Cisco and Joe are thick as thieves. Hell Barry and Oliver are pretty tight. But outside of one near throw away scene with Iris and Linda sharing a beer and discussing the woes of keeping a huge secret, when have we truly seen two women on this show bond and show a great and deep friendship? There is no, ZERO reason that Caitlin and Iris shouldn't at least be good friends, if not best friends. How could they not have somewhat bonded over losing their fiances/husbands? Both are smart and independent women. Caitlin may not completely love Iris' personality but I can't see her not respecting how strong and smart Iris is and vice versa. But again, that's what this show and Arrow are lacking. It's like the writing team and/or producers work at keeping the women folk separated from everyone but the men they're dating/chasing. I mean seriously - how have Patty and Iris not had a few scenes together? Barry's "best" friend and his new girlfriend not even having a coffee together or chatting yet? Total ball drop by the writers.

 

Not great and deep, but the closest they've gotten was Caitlyn and Felicity last season.

And Iris and Caitlyn should at least be friends now, with everything that has happened since Iris found out Barry's secret.

 

[More on the "total ball drop" for the female characters later...]

[dirtypop90]

Caitlyn comes off as a snob. I don't see her being friends with Iris or Linda.

[bettername2come]

They seemed like they were going to head the way of a Caitlin/Iris friendship towards the end of last season with Caitlin sticking up for her and Iris saving Caitlin from Peekaboo and being her de facto bridesmaid, but they definitely haven't expanded that relationship this season.

[jaytee1812]

I wonder how often this show fails the Bechdel Test? I'd say probably all bar maybe two or three episodes this season.

[zannej]

Honestly, I suspect they would all fail the Bechdel Test because most of the time the female characters are discussing the male characters.

[bettername2come]

Ooh, last season's crossover when Caitlin and Felicity discussed Sara's murder and color theory...and that's it.

[driedfruit]

The one scene Iris had with just her and her mom didn't pass it either, did they? 

[jaytee1812]

The one scene Iris had with just her and her mom didn't pass it either, did they?

That was the only scene I could think that might have. I haven't watched the last couple of episodes so I wasn't sure.

[Xander]

There are only two female characters who barely speak to each other and apparently, some viewers don't want any more female characters added so I don't see how it will ever pass it. 

[zannej]

I'm hoping that if they add Jesse "Quick" to the show that maybe she can befriend Caitlin and/or Iris. I could see her possibly getting along with Caitlin because she is likely interested in science, having been raised by Dr. Wells. I think that Iris would probably be interested in life in another world as well as her experience as a hostage of Zoom. I could see Iris being sympathetic to her. Although, we don't know enough about her personality to know how she would really get along with people.

 

She's probably the only character I would like to see added to the show at this point. As much as I liked Wally West in the comic books, this show is so full of characters already, that its going to be tough to give them all screentime-- and the show isn't doing a spectacular job at it right now. I'll keep a wait-and-see attitude though. I could end up really liking Wally. I haven't liked Jay or Patty-- which is a shame because I want to like them.

 

I'm not surprised that this show fails the Bechdel test because comic books are notoriously sexist (I don't like to use the word misogynistic when I don't think that the writers intend to be hateful toward women). I grew up reading them and the female characters either have to be oversexed-- wearing horribly impractical and revealing costumes and often take a back seat to the male characters. Granted, the males are often put in skintight costumes and tend to be drawn with huge muscles. I don't know what things are like now since I stopped reading a decade ago, but the comic books were very much directed at a male audience and female readers were considered less important since they were not the target. I even got into it with a comic book writer in an online chat one day because he was so condescending and disrespectful to and dismissive of the fans. I would hope that things have improved, but I quit reading because the writing and paper quality tanked.

[driedfruit]

There are only two female characters who barely speak to each other and apparently, some viewers don't want any more female characters added so I don't see how it will ever pass it. 

 

No, some viewers don't want unnecessary love interests for Barry (at the cost of Iris' erasure no less) because that's not something they're interested in watching. Characters like Jesse and Linda with legacies of their own would be great additions.

Edited December 8, 2015 by driedfruit

[Rai]

 

I even got into it with a comic book writer in an online chat one day because he was so condescending and disrespectful to and dismissive of the fans. I would hope that things have improved, but I quit reading because the writing and paper quality tanked.

 

 

 

I'm dying to know who the writer was, just because I'm a pretty hardcore nerd, and am very curious.

Edited December 9, 2015 by Rai

[phoenics]

Brought over from the Iris thread...
 

Once again, Iris got shafted in terms of the storyline. This should have been a  big one for her, with a brother she didn't know she had and the complex relationship with her parents but it was all Joe, Joe/Barry, Joe/Wally.
 
It's not because of race because they write so much for Joe/Barry, it's not because Felicity is on the episode, they really don't care about Iris or her feelings at all.,

I disagree that it's not about race - because of intersectionality. Black male depictions in "fatherly" roles vs black women in "romantic lead" roles are worlds apart and Hollywood has traditionally NOT given us the latter. And when we've gotten it - guess who was at the helm? Shonda.

As I've said before, mainstream Hollywood still has issues when it comes to portraying black women in romantic lead positions onscreen - except when Shonda Rhymes is involved (and that's only recently). Case in point, Fox has 2 shows with black female leads (though Minority Report probably will be canceled) and in both scenarios, the black female leads are depicted as Strong Black Women who "don't need a man" and the shows tend to go out of their way to NOT play to the chemistry of them with their white male co-stars, if at all possible.

Contrast that with Rosewood, with a black male lead and the story is vastly different. In fact, Hollywood (mainstream - not BET, etc) broke that barrier with black men paired with white (or non black) leads a long time ago. But black women in lead roles as the love interest and leading lady? No. That's pretty much brand new - a la Scandal and HTGAWM. I can't include Sleepy Hollow yet until they treat Abbie Mills like a full woman character and not as an SBW.

Edited December 9, 2015 by phoenics

[zannej]

I'm dying to know who the writer was, just because I'm a pretty hardcore nerd, and am very curious.

 

It was Bill Willingham. He took over writing for Robin and not only did he not read a single previous issue, he actually hated the character and the concept of the character. He wouldn't have known good characterization if it lubed his prolapsed rectum with high quality printer ink and introduced itself to his anal cavity with great fervor. He also did not care one iota about continuity, and when I asked him about it and about the loyal longtime fans, he essentially said that we could go fuck ourselves and that he didn't give a shit about the longtime readers. What really galled me was that Scott Beatty would have LOVED to have written for Robin, but they gave the job to that hack instead and he tanked the comic. Sort of like when they gave Nightwing over to a glorified fanfiction writer who only got her job because she was dating one of the editors. That comic had been consistently in the top 10 favorite comics but after she shat upon it, it wasn't even in the top 100 and was canceled. I don't know if it was the editors or the writers, but they collectively decided to send a big "fuck you" to Chuck Dixon (and the longtime fans/readers) by killing off almost every single character he created & destroying Bludhaven. It's been over a decade and that still pisses me off. LOL.

 

Willingham is also a known sexist "douche lord".

http://www.themarysue.com/dissenting-opinions-may-occur/

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2015/08/10/bookstore-boycotts-fables-after-bill-willinghams-performance-at-gencon/

 

I don't know if the situation with Iris is about race or if the writers/producers just don't find her a compelling character. I do wonder if there would be any difference in how she's written if they had cast a white actress. I would hope that it wouldn't make a difference, but you never know what is going through their minds. I'm just hoping that we can move to a point where race becomes a non-issue and people are all treated as human beings instead of it being about race, religion, gender, etc. Unfortunately, we are a looong way from that happening.

Edited December 9, 2015 by zannej

[phoenics]

It was Bill Willingham. He took over writing for Robin and not only did he not read a single previous issue, he actually hated the character and the concept of the character. He wouldn't have known good characterization if it lubed his prolapsed rectum with high quality printer ink and introduced itself to his anal cavity with great fervor. He also did not care one iota about continuity, and when I asked him about it and about the loyal longtime fans, he essentially said that we could go fuck ourselves and that he didn't give a shit about the longtime readers. What really galled me was that Scott Beatty would have LOVED to have written for Robin, but they gave the job to that hack instead and he tanked the comic. Sort of like when they gave Nightwing over to a glorified fanfiction writer who only got her job because she was dating one of the editors. That comic had been consistently in the top 10 favorite comics but after she shat upon it, it wasn't even in the top 100 and was canceled. I don't know if it was the editors or the writers, but they collectively decided to send a big "fuck you" to Chuck Dixon (and the longtime fans/readers) by killing off almost every single character he created & destroying Bludhaven. It's been over a decade and that still pisses me off. LOL.

 

Willingham is also a known sexist "douche lord".

http://www.themarysue.com/dissenting-opinions-may-occur/

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2015/08/10/bookstore-boycotts-fables-after-bill-willinghams-performance-at-gencon/

Sometimes I am really shocked at what happens behind the scenes and the decision that are made. How could guy like this get a job at all? And after doing that to fans, how is he not banned from writing? AND even more - if that had been a woman she would never have gotten away with treating fans like that. Wow.

I don't know if the situation with Iris is about race or if the writers/producers just don't find her a compelling character. I do wonder if there would be any difference in how she's written if they had cast a white actress. I would hope that it wouldn't make a difference, but you never know what is going through their minds. I'm just hoping that we can move to a point where race becomes a non-issue and people are all treated as human beings instead of it being about race, religion, gender, etc. Unfortunately, we are a looong way from that happening.

I wish we could all be treated the same as well. I think with Iris there are multiple factors here. I think that the writers are trying to slow burn them (CP just said in an interview that she prefers that too - but these days with her I cannot tell if she's parroting the company line or if that's really her opinion), and they needed to slow the westallen feels down. Additionally, they are trying to write Iris as an SBW (whether they realize it or not) or as "perfect" this season - doing nothing to draw criticism to her and also backgrounding her so the "haters" will back off. Some people have come around - a lot actually - but I still worry that once she becomes front and center again (if that happens) those fans who "like" her now (not all, just some) will turn on her again because she's occupying the main love interest and lead spot again and that makes them uncomfortable.

We've said it before here but black women characters often end up in the hands of writers who either 1) wallpaper them and push them to the sassy sidelines or 2) make them perfect with zero flaws because they don't want the character to receive hatred. Iris is far from a Mary Sue (she doesn't sprout skills every week to solve every problem on the show like clockwork) but the writers are clearly struggling with her.

And honestly - the issue with her is NOT Iris. It's how the MEN are written around her. Her banter with Cold was awesome. Her talking about her issues with telling her dad was AWESOME! Even how she awkwardly interrupted Batty was AWESOME. Please writers, give CP more to do on this show. She's earned it.

[Rai]

Ah, yes, Bill Willingham.  He does like to rile up people.

 

That said, in a thread about gender roles and similar concerns, it's disappointing to see that people still believe Devin Grayson just slept her way into the biz.  Although she dated the writer Mark Waid for a bit (not any of the editors), she was writing for DC before they started dating, and was working on Nightwing after they broke up.  Yeah, it was her fan-fiction that got her noticed by Denny O'Neil, but that's the kind of thing I'd think would make a fan happy.  "Local Kid Makes Good" kind of thing.

 

I admit, I happened to be a big fan of her work on Catwoman and Gotham Knights back in the day, but still.  Gail Simone came out of the internet fan ranks too and doesn't get this kind of insinuation, maybe because she's already married.  Grayson had the misfortune to date a colleague for a bit, and people have held that against her ever since. 

[phoenics]

We never seem to hold it against the men do we? I guess since they always have all of the power.

[SevenStars]

We never seem to hold it against the men do we? I guess since they always have all of the power.

I think people don't hold it against men because society have made it clear that no matter what, a man always have what it takes to succeed. While women are not born with what it takes, so they HAVE to go the extra mile, usually the extra mile is sex.

I hate this but unfortunately, a lot of people believe this, including women.

[phoenics]

Or worse, that in order to succeed, women have to act just like men - but then they are judged for that too.

[Rai]

But that's not what she did to get into the biz, so the fact that people like to believe that about her -- STILL -- is very depressing.

[rogueprinzess]

 

We've said it before here but black women characters often end up in the hands of writers who either 1) wallpaper them and push them to the sassy sidelines or 2) make them perfect with zero flaws because they don't want the character to receive hatred. Iris is far from a Mary Sue (she doesn't sprout skills every week to solve every problem on the show like clockwork) but the writers are clearly struggling with her.

 

A matter of opinion, but I don't think that the writers are struggling with her at all. i think the showrunners (meaning those who decide what actually end up in the final cut, producers, editors, network execs etc.) have no concept of how to balance outside obligations (i.e. launching LoT) and haters that have nothing better to do then flood their twitter and inboxes with hate messages. I don't know if this is the case on The Flash, but on other shows with an ensemble cast, the writing teams are usually split up by character. So Iris for example could have one or two writers assigned to her specifically. It would be their job to research about her character, develop her interests, needs, desires, aspirations etc. and write just for her. If that's the case on the Flash, then the writers may just be spitting out loads of great content for Iris and her development. But if the showrunners don't think it's relevant or interesting, it'll never see the light of day.

 

 

And honestly - the issue with her is NOT Iris. It's how the MEN are written around her. Her banter with Cold was awesome. Her talking about her issues with telling her dad was AWESOME! Even how she awkwardly interrupted Batty was AWESOME. Please writers, give CP more to do on this show. She's earned it.

 

Agreed. CP has smashed every scene they've ever given her and proven that she can work well with all the other series regulars - particularly GG who she was specifically cast for based on chemistry. As someone who's been to two conventions where CP was present, I can attest to the fact that there are a lot of fans who love her and her character and don't understand why there isn't more of her.The only recurring "issue" with her character that I keep hearing from some people is when it comes to her potential romance with Barry "But it's like their siblings" or "isn't it like incest cuz they're like brother and sister". I really, really, really  don't understand how people ever thought this. GG & CP have never given off a fraternal vibe to me onscreen. Perhaps the show is trying to distance them because they weren't anticipating the backlash those perverted fans would throw at the show. But knowing how the CW has treated other WOC on their shows *coughcoughKatGrahamcoughcough* I find that hard to believe.  

[Ruby25]

After how good CP was in the episode last night it makes me even more curious about that cut scene from 2x03- she's showing she can do emotional, crying scenes just as well as Grant, imo. And I'm wondering if there's not some truth in the conspiracy theory that that scene was cut because it was too good and they were still trying to build up Barry/Patty.

 

They have to recognize now that she's a more capable actress than say, Danielle Panabaker. Even EBR has trouble with crying and emotional scenes (see all the complaining about Arrow last year) and she's better with the comedic relief, so it's valuable to have a cast member who can really nail that stuff. The Joe/Barry/Iris family material was the strongest part of the episode last night, and it remains the heart of the show, imo.

 

Merging the two families with Barry/Iris is going to play right into the show's strengths, imo. I wonder if the writers recognize that too.

Edited December 9, 2015 by Ruby25

[quarks]

I don't know if this is the case on The Flash, but on other shows with an ensemble cast, the writing teams are usually split up by character. So Iris for example could have one or two writers assigned to her specifically. It would be their job to research about her character, develop her interests, needs, desires, aspirations etc. and write just for her. If that's the case on the Flash, then the writers may just be spitting out loads of great content for Iris and her development. 

 

Alas, this isn't the case for Flash, though. Writers for Flash, Arrow and Legends of Tomorrow work on specific episodes, not characters; this has been confirmed in numerous interviews.   That doesn't mean that the writers aren't spitting out loads of great content for Iris - I really hope they are, and that the second season gives us more stuff for Iris, but there's no one specifically assigned to any one character, so I can't take any hope from that.

[Actionmage]

he [Joe] then goes on that Wally never had a father and nor someone there to teach him how to be a man.

 

That got me upset on Francine's behalf!

 

Just because Joe wasn't around for Wally, does that mean that Francine knew no good men, no honorable men? That's relying on an out-of-date picture of Francine. I believe that the actual bemoaning of Joe's missed chance at teaching a biological son about being a man came between Iris telling  about Wally and meeting Francine and forgiving her.  So he was relying on a picture of Francine that he had no way of confirming at that time. Especially as the woman turned down a payoff and looked super put together in her meetings with Joe and Iris. Francine may have been battling cancer, but was able to look awesome doing so, which is hard if you aren't making cash. 

 

Francine was also able to be under the radar enough that her detective husband just gave up looking for her. Granted, he was half-heartedly looking for Francine, but if we are to believe that she was just some normal pregnant, junkie rehab runaway, how was she able to elude Joe, besides the  he gave up to protect himself excuse?  Someone, or several someones, cared enough to help Francine get clean. We just got a miniscule look at Wally in an awkward social situation, so not enough to guess anything. Yet, he braved his fears and showed up around Christmas to meet half of his family. Someone stepped in.

 

That Joe is written to be so rigidly in the 'male is first best' kind of mindset is dismaying. He took to Barry, Eddie, and Cisco relatively quickly. Stein was another scientist , so he trusted Barry's voucher for him. Harry has provisionally earned some trust, where Thawne's Wells never put Joe off digging into him.  Jay doesn't seem to register, but is treated as an alright guy.

 

That Joe was first shown as making Sand Demon's kidnapping of Officer Patty Spivot as him failing, when it clearly wasn't, kept showing that Joe thinks of women as a liability, someone that will be hurt.  I could be interested in seeing how Joe formed that ideology, but I don't trust these writers to do the subject well. They can't even write a snappy DaughterReporter pushes CopDad for quotes scene. Hell, they barely have time for a quiet moment between Iris and Joe.

 

Joe also barely has time to acknowledge Caitlin is a doctor. Joe was okay with Barry blackmailing a prominent scientist in order to get something they promptly lost to the Big Bad. (Joe at least  seemed embarrassed about that.)  If Caitlin and Jay had not shown up, I honestly think Joe would not notice unless someone pointed it out.

 

This is not to say that Joe needs to treat everyone like Barry, but then again, he barely treats his daughter like he does Barry.

 

If all we get is Joe "trying to make it up" to Wally to the exclusion of Iris getting to know her brother, then I might have to join "The Kids" and flip some tables.

[quarks]

And while we're complaining about this, thanks Joe, for telling your daughter that Barry has had a tough year - about seven months after the man she loved and wanted to marry died saving her.

[Actionmage]

I swear, it's like the show wants us to hate Joe, yet knows that Jesse is why we don't storm the offices.

[dirtypop90]

^^I also caught that line from Joe. He just doesn't seem to care about his daughter's feelings about anything at all, likely because the writers don't.

^^^not interested in watching Wally and Barry fight over joe for the reasons discussed but we know it is coming. It already started with the writers having Joe give Barry his watch after finding out about Wally. I just hope it doesn't take up all of Wally's screen time because I would actually like to see meaningful scenes between just Wally and Iris. It would be nice if Wally chose Iris to be a member of his "team" from the beginning since Barry did not even though they were supposedly bffs. Plus, I think Candice would be totally adorable in the big sister role. So I hope they hit it off pretty quickly. No reason for them not to, he grew up with their mom, she got their dad but doesn't even get much attention from him now, so no need for any jealousy here.

Edited December 9, 2015 by dirtypop90

[rogueprinzess]

^^ Everything your post said made sense. The people that run this show don't seem to understand the language of sense, which gives me no confidence that they'll treat Wally/Iris' relationship with any of what it deserves. Joe was completely insensitive to Iris this episode (as per usual) in that statement about Barry's 'hard year' and not even asking Iris what her thoughts were about giving Barry that watch. Iris is kind enough that she likely would have been fine with Joe giving it to Barry anyways, but his asking would have at least shown that he gave half a damn about her. The sad thing is that Francine may be the very parent that would put Iris first as a child, and Iris is pushing her away.

[phoenics]

Alas, this isn't the case for Flash, though. Writers for Flash, Arrow and Legends of Tomorrow work on specific episodes, not characters; this has been confirmed in numerous interviews.   That doesn't mean that the writers aren't spitting out loads of great content for Iris - I really hope they are, and that the second season gives us more stuff for Iris, but there's no one specifically assigned to any one character, so I can't take any hope from that.

But we can take hope from the fact that usually when there is a strong Iris or Westallen or heavily emotional episode, David Nutter is involved somehow. I meant to look for him in the credits - I might do that again. Whenever he's involved, we get really good stuff.

[zannej]

Rai, I despised Devin Grayson's writing. I would hate to see what her fanfic looked like, but I just find it hard to believe that she made it based on the merit of her writing. But, I did always wonder who the hell Willingham blew to get his job because he was a lot worse than Devin-- so it had nothing to do with Devin being female and everything to do with the fact that she had horrible writing (IMO). The official dc message boards were full of complaints about her crap writing-- they were also complaining about Jon Lewis, Greg Rucka, and Douche Willingham.

 

It does make me sad when I see daughters being treated as second-class citizens compared to their brothers. My uncle admitted to me that he regretted his sexist attitude when his kids were growing up. He wanted to do all of the father-son stuff with his son but his son was not at all interested in it. Meanwhile, his daughter desperately wanted to do the same activities, but he pushed her aside because she was a girl. He said he deeply regretted all of the times he did that because she ended up marrying a complete control-freak sexist bigot. He now wants to spend more time with her, but he's in Virginia and she's in Texas. I think because Joe was raised in a time where there is more importance on the sons, he doesn't even think about what it means for Iris-- and I think Iris seems to understand and has the maturity to not be bothered by it-- or at least to accept it.

Edited December 10, 2015 by zannej

[phoenics]

Hmmm except Iris wanted to be like her dad - she wanted to be a cop like him and he forbid it... so I'm not so sure. I'm glad she finally said enough is enough with her blog and stuck to her guns, but still...

I actually followed in my dad's footsteps - he never treated me like he wanted a son. EVER. I'm still working on getting a son-in-law for him, lol.

It's hard for me to relate to Joe as a dad because my dad is just so much better, lol.

[rogueprinzess]

 

I think because Joe was raised in a time where there is more importance on the sons, he doesn't even think about what it means for Iris-- and I think Iris seems to understand and has the maturity to not be bothered by it-- or at least to accept it

 

I don't think we'd know how Iris feels about it since the show doesn't seem to want us to ever know how she's feeling or thinking. She could be seething inside but we'll never know at this rate.

 

I guess Joe's attitude seems strange to me because I know so many dads that are just enamoured of their daughters. It's not to say that they don't love their sons to death, but usually their baby girls are so precious to them; and in Joe's case where his wife chose drugs over their family, you'd think Joe would be even closer to Iris. I get that he may not feel as "equipped" to handle a girl as a man (I mean she was learning how to box when most other girls were probably playing with make-up) but this show makes it seem like unless Iris is in direct danger of some sort, he can't be bothered. If he has a deep, personal emotional topic to discuss - better call Barry cuz Iris couldn't possibly understand/empathize his manpain. There's just no reason that we shouldn't be seeing more father/daughter moments between these two that don't revolve around Iris nearly getting killed.

[Sakura12]

Joe only cares about Iris when she needs a man protecting her, otherwise she's on her own. Why would she empathize with not getting know a son with not getting to know a younger brother. Barry would understand though, because he's a man and only another man can understand that pain. 

 

Now that Joe has two sons, Iris might as well pack her bags she's going to be more invisible to her father now. I'm sure Joe is going to want to spend all his time offering his manly advise to his new son. 

 

And did he really say who taught him to throw a ball? Women know how to throw footballs, Joe. My younger sister played Football with guys, she played Baseball with guys and was better than they were. She also impressed guys with being able to dribble a basketball with both hands equally well, everyone thought she was left handed and guarded her that way and she'd just switch to going right. Not saying that from what we've seen of Francine that she'd do that but that was such a sexist remark. Along with plenty of men learn how to be men growing up with single mothers. And maybe learn how to be better men without growing up with sexist thoughts like that. 

Edited December 10, 2015 by Sakura12

[phoenics]

I really hate how they write Joe sometimes.

[zannej]

I think the point is that Joe is a sexist even if he doesn't intend to be. He treats Iris like she's not strong enough to do things just because she's a girl. He told Barry to keep secrets from her because she was such a fragile thing it might get her hurt-- when in reality, it actually hurt her more. I think that society is starting to change and some of the gender stereotypes are changing, but there are still issues. I think I may have mentioned my cousin who married a jerk before. Their kids are homeschooled and their father spends more time with his sons than he does with his daughters. He has separate activities where he insists his boys are taught to do "boy" things and his daughters are supposed to do "girl" things with their mother. He also insists that since he is the "man of the house" that he's the leader and everyone else in the family (including his wife/my cousin) has to obey him. Quite frankly, the dude is creepy and if he actually had charisma, I'd worry that he would become a cult leader.

 

So, Joe looks much nicer compared to that, but he's not perfect. I think its ok that he's not perfect though. It shows that he's human. I wish they would have Iris call him out on his double-standards at some point though.

[rogueprinzess]

 

I wish they would have Iris call him out on his double-standards at some point though.

 

Iris has called Joe out on it, at least once last season. When she refused to stop blogging about The Flash, she brought out how Joe basically threw a tantrum when she told him she wanted to join the police academy. In that case she backed down but didn't on the blog. It made reference to the point that Iris does indeed recognize that Joe puts her on a fragile pedestal, and yet he still hands her a glock and tells her to handle herself if necessary. Joe can and should be imperfect, but the show needs to get their act together and make it make sense. I can deal with him having a double standard towards Barry vs Iris because most parents do. But they should at least show Joe being consistently loving, attentive and protective of Iris, not just when it suits the plot.

[zannej]

Iris has called Joe out on it, at least once last season. When she refused to stop blogging about The Flash, she brought out how Joe basically threw a tantrum when she told him she wanted to join the police academy. In that case she backed down but didn't on the blog. It made reference to the point that Iris does indeed recognize that Joe puts her on a fragile pedestal, and yet he still hands her a glock and tells her to handle herself if necessary. Joe can and should be imperfect, but the show needs to get their act together and make it make sense. I can deal with him having a double standard towards Barry vs Iris because most parents do. But they should at least show Joe being consistently loving, attentive and protective of Iris, not just when it suits the plot.

Ah, I meant specifically having her point out that he doesn't treat Barry the same way. But then, maybe she never felt overly competitive with Barry the way some siblings do.

I see what you mean about Joe needing to be consistent-- of course, in real life parents aren't always consistent. Some people are just weird and irrational. My mother is one of those people. I've seen parents who can't seem to make up their minds about the rules for their kids. But unlike real life, fiction needs to make sense. So, it would be nice if Joe decided if Iris is a delicate flower who needs protection/guidance or not. I will say, that I had a friend who's father always wanted a son but only had her so he wanted her to be tough (she wasn't supposed to cry and was supposed to be able to take all sorts of insults and emotional abuse) but he wanted her to act more feminine/girly and be more like a good little Mormom girl. As it was, she was a goth chick who just wanted her parents to treat her like a human being and not yell at her when she cried. The asshole father even punished her because he thought she was going to have a tantrum when she hadn't even done anything wrong. All she did was cry because he was yelling right in her face while pulling her hair and calling her "trash". At least Joe doesn't act like that with Iris-- although he did give her the silent treatment over something that really wasn't any of his business since she's a grown woman.

I do have a feeling that Joe would have had a fit if Iris had brought Eddie home to her bedroom, but he's probably perfectly fine with Barry bringing Patty home.

[Trini]

Unexpectedly found this article praising Barry's crying: 'The Flash Is Finding Manliness Through Vulnerability, And It’s Wonderful'

In other words, he allows himself to be human in a way we’ve not yet seen from a male superhero, whether on the big or small screen, and The Flash is a better series for it. Rather than turning a legion of hardcore fans away by showing a strong male lead giving in to “weak” emotions, the show has gained a fervent fanbase that is comprised of both sexes who look to Barry Allen not as an impossible ideal, but as a relatable hero and one to emulate. He has something that very few male television lead characters, much less superheroes have, and that’s sensitivity.

Actually, I think all of the regular cast have cried at least once in the show. Wally better watch out. ;-)

Edited January 11, 2016 by Trini

[phoenics]

Okay I need to get this off my chest.

HOW many times now has Patty (in 9 episodes) been damseled? I think this is at least 3 times? And not just damseled - helplessly damseled in the truest sense of the word - adding NOTHING to her rescue at all. And it might happen again in the next episode!

Fitting in that pattern - Caitlin has been damseled twice and did nothing to free herself or help either. She was also helpless.

Iris is the ONLY woman on the show who actively aided in her rescue TWICE - wait no, THREE times. But Iris is pretty much the only one the fandom bashed from here to kingdom come for being "a damsel in distress just like Lana". That happened HERE, btw, as well as other places on the net.

I'm so tired of the double standards that somehow always leave Iris on the losing end. Stop moving the goalposts.

[cynic]

On another forum I frequent, posters tore Iris apart for not figuring out Barry was The Flash, for wanting her significant other to come clean to her when he was obviously hiding something, and for snooping on her friends. They also railed against other posters who wanted Barry to tell Iris his secret.

 

Now, they're upset that Barry didn't tell Patty his secret. They're perfectly fine with Patty putting her foot down with him about his sketchy behavior. They have nothing to say about Patty having her face nuzzled into the Flash's abdomen and not recognizing him as the same guy she slept with the night before. Oh, and  Caitlin stealing Jay's DNA and examining it without his permission to find out what he's hiding? *crickets* If Iris had done that, there would be pages and pages of complaints about how much of a nosy, demanding B she was. 

[phoenics]

People think racism is just n-word this and n-word that, but usually it comes in the form of simply never giving black characters the full range of their emotions without stigmatization. And also never giving them the benefit of the doubt either - once they "make a misstep", that's it. No quarter, no forgiveness.

I read a great article recently about "non-racism" vs "anti-racism" that gets to the heart of this. Often, people will happily embrace a concept of "non-racism" - meaning, they will profess and declare that "I don't use the n-word." or "I don't laugh at racist jokes", or "I don't discriminate", etc.. It's all passive actions about what they "don't" do.

Anti-racism is different. It's ACTIVE and requires people to actively take a stand. Instead of simply "not laughing" when someone tells a racist joke or uses the n-word, actively speak out against it in the moment. Instead of not discriminating, become an ally and actively work to tear down oppressive structures.

One is passive and allows the racist systems of oppression to remain unbothered and the other is active and works to destroy those systems.

So, the non-racist might see how Iris is being judged unfairly vs Patty and Caitlin and not participate, but they won't actively call it out either. (Iris is flogged for things that Patty and Caitlin are cheered for, or given a pass on; and worse, it becomes forever attached to Iris, whilst no one really continually uses Patty and Caitlin's mistakes to characterize them really - not to the level Iris is frequently characterized for her missteps).

I prefer the anti-racist who sees the pattern, calls it out repeatedly and refuses to stop until the unfair double standards are ended.

People often think of racism as only being about overt racism and not systems of oppression, oppressive thought or oppressive privilege for some but not others.

If racism was just the overt kind, we could have stamped that out a long time ago. And in my mind, if you're a non-racist, you might as well be a racist - you're actually doing NOTHING to stop racism and by being passive, you're allowing racism to continue.

Edited January 21, 2016 by phoenics

[phoenics]

I found this post on tumblr where a user broke down all of the timings for the female characters on the show...

I'll just leave it here, but it really chafes at how it all falls out - even for the scraps the women characters get. Of the main characters, Iris definitely comes out on the losing end. Really unhappy with this.

http://boniferhasty.tumblr.com/post/134264006678/for-my-own-sanity-im-keeping-track-of-major

The summary is this:

TOTAL

Caitlin - 68 min 35 secs

Patty* - 53 min 55 secs

Iris - 44 min 30 secs

Linda/Dr. Light - 16 min 20 secs

Kendra - 14 min

Keep in mind that Patty didn't even appear in the premiere and she STILL has almost 10 minutes more of screen time than Iris does.

I need to go pray before I start cussing.

[rogueprinzess]

^^ Not surprising sadly. Iris has been practically omitted from several episodes, and we know from the stills released that she's had scenes cut. The show made it clear last season and the majority of this one where she falls on their priority list.

[Actionmage]

So, after tonight's introduction to Trajectory, are the only supposedly surviving female villains Peek-A-Boo and Golden Glider?  Not-Queen Bee may still be(e) around, but I don't remember just right now.

 

Yes, there are probably more dead male villains, but Bette Sans Souci/Plastique and Eliza Harmon/Trajectory were introduced as interesting characters in their own right and (presumably) killed off in one episode.  Not to be more upset over the women dying than the men, which I'm not, but the men seem to come out less dead overall.

[Chicago Redshirt]

Flash doesn't seem to be shy about killing its villains of either gender. Although, there's also the comic book rule of if you don't see a body, they're probably not dead. And even if you do see a body, there's probably shenanigans that could bring them back to life.

 

Dead male bad guys: Girder, Turtle, Atom Smasher, Deathbolt, Multiplex, Everyman, Weather Wizard 1.0, Sand Demon (at least, I consider being turned to glass and then shattered probably dead, but again comics), and Deathstorm.

 

Live male bad guys: Capt. Cold, Heat Wave, Weather Wizard 2.0, Trickster 1.0, Trickster 2.0, Grodd, Rainbow Raider, Grodd, King Shark, Geomancer, the Mist, Clock King, Pied Piper, Tar Pit, Tokamak, and of course Zoom

 

Not-quite-dead-yet male bad guys: Reverse Flash* (obviously he is alive in some sort of timey-wimey BS), Vandal Savage* (killed but swept up by Malcolm Merlyn and immortal)

 

Dead female bad guys/guest stars: Trajectory and Plastique.

 

Live female bad guys/metahuman guest stars: Golden Glider, Bug-Eyed Bandit, Peekaboo, Dr. Light, Killer Frost (albeit on Earth-2)

I'll note that for most, if not all, of the dead male bad guys, we got a body.

 

For neither Trajectory nor Plastique was there one. If the writers really wanted to bring them back, they probably could contrive some comicbooky explanation.

Edited March 23, 2016 by Chicago Redshirt

[Actionmage]

Thank you for the lists, Chicago Redshirt.  I guess it was the overt death-for-plot-ness of Eliza's story that got me so upset.

 

Sorry to add a name, but Reverb should be added to the Dead Male Bad Guy list, right?

[Chicago Redshirt]

True, and I guess we could also add Simon Stagg to the list. 

 

This is not to say that there's not a difference between how the male and female villains are treated. 

 

It seems to me that the male villains have a lot more agency, have bigger body counts, and are taken a lot more seriously, generally speaking.

 

Could be wrong, but I think that Glider may be the only female supervillain with documented kills. I'd assume that Killer Frost has killed people, but we haven't seen them. Peekaboo absolutely didn't try to kill anyone, BEB failed, Dr. Light tried to kill Barry but didn't. I don't think Plastique did, despite her power lending itself to actually killing lots of people. 

 

Could you see Caitlin or Iris or Patty or anyone being, "Ooh, tell me if Heat Wave is hot" like Cisco does over Trajectory or lusting about Peekaboo? Or the headline of a newspaper saying "Flash defeats male speedster"?

[Trini]

Could be wrong, but I think that Glider may be the only female supervillain with documented kills. I'd assume that Killer Frost has killed people, but we haven't seen them. Peekaboo absolutely didn't try to kill anyone, BEB failed, Dr. Light tried to kill Barry but didn't. I don't think Plastique did, despite her power lending itself to actually killing lots of people.

 

Bug-Eyed Bandit killed two people with her robo-bees before targeting Tina McGee, Killer Frost killed two thieves, and Dr. Light killed Iris' boss ("accidently").

 

This is not to say that there's not a difference between how the male and female villains are treated. ...

Could you see Caitlin or Iris or Patty or anyone being, "Ooh, tell me if Heat Wave is hot" like Cisco does over Trajectory or lusting about Peekaboo? Or the headline of a newspaper saying "Flash defeats male speedster"?

 

Yeah, Cisco's metahuman lust is getting out of hand.