S06.E13: S06.E12: 2009 / S06.E13: Dreams Come True

[tab19]

Not sure if I have posted this before on this thread or another one, but...this scene will always be a prime example of how misogynistic and hypocritical the writing was, and just how much Will sucked as a teacher and person.

Responding in All Episodes, as well.

[Higgs]

What's snobbish about not wanting someone with barely a high school education involved in the education of children?

There is an element of snobbism when middle-class people tie ability to formal credentials, which are ultimately related to wealth. Would you disqualify an elementary-school dropout who happened to be a Mississippi blues genius or an Appalachian virtuoso folk fiddler from communicating their knowledge to a high-school music group? Rachel, despite her many years of formal vocal training, a year at NYADA, and 6 months as the performing star in the company of top Broadway musical professionals, is utterly unqualified to teach choral music. So is Will, and so is Shelby. Sam could be as competent at it as any of them, especially as he is a more accomplished instrumentalist than any of them.

[jaytee1812]

There is an element of snobbism when middle-class people tie ability to formal credentials, which are ultimately related to wealth. Would you disqualify an elementary-school dropout who happened to be a Mississippi blues genius or an Appalachian virtuoso folk fiddler from communicating their knowledge to a high-school music group? Rachel, despite her many years of formal vocal training, a year at NYADA, and 6 months as the performing star in the company of top Broadway musical professionals, is utterly unqualified to teach choral music. So is Will, and so is Shelby. Sam could be as competent at it as any of them, especially as he is a more accomplished instrumentalist than any of them.

To be fair I wouldn't let any of the characters you mention teach children. Yes I would also stop every single person you mention teaching children on a regular basis. I would not let any adult into a school for a paid position that did not have at least a high school degree, but also some form of teaching qualifications.

[camussie]

Rachel was volunteering.  Same with Will when he started ND back but he was a teacher.  That means he went to college.  Basically when he started ND back up he taking on an extracurricular activity, something many teachers do. Finn was also advising for an extracurricular and temporarily at that.  Still when he decided he wanted to make a career of coaching a Glee club the show was very clear he needed to get a degree.  So again I ask why did he need a degree and Sam didn't for the exact same career path?  Either they want me to believe Sam is just that amazing or Glee isn't following its own internal logic.

Edited March 26, 2015 by camussie

[Ceeg]

I don't think anyone should be teaching at any kind of public school without some sort of formal education. Teaching private lessons, on the side is different. If Sam wants to teach guitar to kids off school grounds after school hours, that's totally reasonable. But Sam as an actual teacher, who is paid by the Lima City School system to teach children? Sam who has no type of post-high school degree? For real?

[tom87]

Sam couldn't even sub  in a public school.   He could volunteer with a background check and such but would probably not even be allowed to be alone with kids without an school employee with him.

Edited March 26, 2015 by tom87

[Cranberry]

I substitute taught at a couple of elementary schools, and I needed a couple of years of university and a background check just to do that. I think the requirements are even more stringent now.

[spiritof76]

 

I substitute taught at a couple of elementary schools, and I needed a couple of years of university and a background check just to do that. I think the requirements are even more stringent now.

That has been my experience as well. It varies by state. Some states say you need college degree to substitute. Other states as mentioned here require at least some college coursework. 

 

Sam could be as competent at it as any of them, especially as he is a more accomplished instrumentalist than any of them.

He is? When was that demonstrated?

[natyxg]

Rachel was volunteering.  Same with Will when he started ND back but he was a teacher.  That means he went to college.  Basically when he started ND back up he taking on an extracurricular activity, something many teachers do. Finn was also advising for an extracurricular and temporarily at that.  Still when he decided he wanted to make a career of coaching a Glee club the show was very clear he needed to get a degree.  So again I ask why did he need a degree and Sam not for the exact same career path?  Either they want me to believe Sam is just that amazing or Glee isn't following its own internal logic.

 

Because Sam probably just inherited Finn's ending, without them bothering with giving him the actual journey to get there.

[Higgs]

When was that [sam's superiority as an instrumentalist] demonstrated?

[so soon they forget.] Last episode. Will strummed. Sam played. Rachel is a beginning piano student and Shelby is ?

Will has not only not taken the courses usually demanded for a principal, but such a job would run as totally against his nature as did leading VA. Nevertheless ... American public schools, unlike those in many foreign countries, operate on the basis of local autonomy. The school board can override formal requirements at will, and this would be especially true for a magnet arts program. Just as no degree of any kind is necessary for a high school football coach (Google it), all an arts school need care about is the ability to teach the subject*, credentials be damned. Oh, I almost forgot, sex between faculty and students would need to be very discreet.

*There are some programs to get scientists and engineers to teach without requiring any credential or special training.

Edited March 26, 2015 by Higgs

[camussie]

So your justification is that Will and/or the school board probably over-rode what would be considered normal requirements just to accommodate employing Sam?  Again I ask why?  What has he done on the show to demonstrate he is so valuable a coaching talent that they would do that for him?  Because he had one lucid moment and can play a few chords on the guitar?   It isn't like he is some highly successful musician returning from Nashville, Austin, New York, or LA to give back to his alma mater.  

 

He is a 19 year old kid who was sniffing jock straps the previous school year.  A kid who never expressed an interest in coaching Glee club until his job with the football team went away,  A kid, who in his three years in Glee, never arranged a song from what I recall.  If he was is so very talented that normal requirements aren't needed why wasn't he using these talents while he was in the club?

 

Basically Sam doesn't have the education, experience, or talent to be the paid director of McKinley Arts Magnate premiere glee club. It would be one thing if they had shown throughout the years that Sam was this chorale music genius but they haven't.  At all.    

Edited March 26, 2015 by camussie

[Cranberry]

 Oh, I almost forgot, sex between faculty and students would need to be very discreet.

 

Are there any high schools where faculty members are allowed to sleep with students at all, "discreet" or no? And what does this have to do with teaching without a degree, anyway?

[Higgs]

Are there any high schools where faculty members are allowed to sleep with students at all, "discreet" or no? And what does this have to do with teaching without a degree, anyway?

I don't label my jokes, sarcasm, or irony.

[Cranberry]

Which category was the line about students sleeping with faculty supposed to fall under, exactly?

[Glorfindel]

[so soon they forget.] Last episode. Will strummed. Sam played. Rachel is a beginning piano student and Shelby is ?

Will played the ukelele and guitar (cant believe Im defending Will here), Kurt can play the piano (already demonstrated in season 1) and he said to Elliot in season 5 that he can also play a bit of guitar although he himself admitted he's not so good (but Elliot was going to teach him to play it better after they bought Kurt a new guitar, and for all we know he did).

We also know that Blaine can play piano and guitar. Shelby went to a musical college, just not to NYADA, so I assume she can play at least 1 instrument as well (we saw her play scales on the piano, but that's not too hard to do I guess) and she would have actually gotten a music education there suitable to coach a show choir (although maybe not a teacher's degree).

 

As far as we know Sam plays only 1 instrument, the guitar. And he got at the most as many, maybe even less, piano lessons as Rachel got from Blaine in those few months they were all in Lima.

So I don't know how that would make him superior as an instrumentalist to the others (sans Rachel) in any way?

 

 

As for the (professional) arranging of music vs. the kids bursting out in choreographed 3-part harmonies with the band and Brad knowing how to play the songs without even needing sheet music:

This is one of those instances when Glee wanted the cake and eat it too. A lot of the performances were indeed 'spontaneous' but with fully worked out arrangements and including choreography, and that's when Glee went the High School Musical route of musical make believe, with kids bursting out in song in the hallway, dream sequences (with props) and even characters being able to sing duets together without ever rehearsing them.

 

But the writers also wanted to tell the story of ND as a show choir with a director who's arranging songs for them and the kids learning from their weekly assignments which the prepare for the choir room. The last season had 4(!) show choir coaches (5 counting Sue) mentoring the kids to Sectionals and then (only Will) Nationals. And in this last season, and also season 4 with Finn, the writers themselves put the emphasis on the choir coach(es) doing work for the show choir, making week lessons and judging the kids' performances, sometimes having to adjust their own thinking after the kids showed them something new.

Finn discovered he wanted to be a real teacher and went to college for it to get his degree. Rachel had to learn to put her musical talent in service of others (ND) so she could find herself again. Kurt coached ND to get credits for his NYADA studies, Blaine got a paid job to coach the Warblers. Shelby was seen trying to teach Sugar to sing on key (and failed, lol). Heck, the last 2 episodes mainly focused on what a wonderful show choir director Will was and what a good job he did getting ND to 2 National titles.

 

All these storylines and scenes involving the show choir's directors were placed in Glee's 'reality', not like the impromptu musical style performances with props and backup dancers popping up out of the blue we also got. And as I said before: they showed in canon repeatedly that Will (or Finn, Kurt and Rachel) had to actually make the arrangements for the setlists (even if only the last week before a competition) or worked on other show choir preparations.

So I do think the discussion about if the choir coaches should have degrees and/or extensive musical knowledge/education is a valid one, even within the Glee universe.

 

And that's even leaving out the issue of these people working with kids in a school environment, for which they'd need a teaching degree.

Edited March 26, 2015 by Glorfindel

[Sara2009]

Will can also dance very very well. Can you imagine Sam teaching these kids even simple choreography? LOL

[Ceeg]

Will can also dance very very well. Can you imagine Sam teaching these kids even simple choreography? LOL

 

Those poor kids.

 

I have a feeling the Trouble Tones will become the new show choir powerhouse. 

[tom87]

[ComfySweater]

I know plenty of people who collected random degrees that mean nothing about their skills and experience, but are we really arguing about Sam's intelligence? He poured cereal on the floor as a romantic gesture. He's not the brain trust.

[Bill1978]

I've been watching the I Lived performance about once a day where now where I use to be disappointed in it due to it's brevity and lack of a Marley surprise, I can now watch it and see so much happiness between the actors. While they may have been the character for the performance, it's really a group of people celebrating they jy of working with each other over the year. But watching it ad nauseum has made me query the New Directions 3.0 being present at the dedication. For all the talk of Karofsky being present being weird (I still maintain the football link makes his appearance valid within the story) or Terri being there (still can't think why she would need to attend story wise) I can't think of a reason why New Directions 3.0 would return 5 years after winning (within the story) to go to the naming ceremony of a guy they never met. They have zero connection to this Finn Hudson guy. At least Kitty, Ryder, Jake, Unique and Lauren have a connection to Finn. Even with this little quibble, I really do enjoy the happiness of the performance from every one.

[AndySmith]

I'm ok with them coming back. The way I see it, even if they never met Finn, they came back 1) to show their support for Rachel and Will, knowing how much Finn meant to them 2) they wanted to support Finn because even though the never met him, Will's joining the ND more than anything is what helped re-start the group proper, and if Will hadn't joined, the group probably would not have lasted beyond the pilot and 3) you could argue ND was almost an unofficial social fraternity of sorts, and even if you don't know the people who came before you, when one of them is being honored, you show up to show your support for that person and for the rest of the members as they are your "family" of sorts.

[Higgs]

I know plenty of people who collected random degrees that mean nothing about their skills and experience, but are we really arguing about Sam's intelligence? He poured cereal on the floor as a romantic gesture. He's not the brain trust.

Since its inception, Glee has engaged in deliberate farce to show that any character, no matter how noble or intelligent in their best of times, could be idiotic, even outright criminal, in their worst of times. (They are each A Tale of Two Characters.) As a recent egregious example, Rachel's walking out of FG was an act of complete, self-destructive lunacy.

Before S4, and throughout S6, Sam was shown to be reasonably normal and level-headed, and respected by all the other characters. My question is not about Sam, who is fictional; it's about why some viewers, who I presume are real, accord his past failings much more wieght than they do those of any other character (except Will, who can't speak a word of Spanish and, against all reason and with possible malice aforethought, denied Kurt a competition solo), notwithstanding Sam's 13 full episodes of successful rehabilitation. What greater proof of his fitness is there than the fact Rachel sang with him? (Oh sure, she fucked him, but she'll do that with any straight duet partner. After all, she's a performing artist.)

[caracas1914]

(Oh sure, she fucked him, but she'll do that with any straight duet partner. After all, she's a performing artist.)

 

That's my head canon why she slept with Sam.  It was "he's straight and I need to get my performing mojo back on." Once Jesse entered the room, it was "Sam, is a good friend" and " let's duet Jesse and fuck all night and make Broadway babies together until the end of time."  Then it was "who the hell is Sam?"

 

Rachel and Jesse were always endgame.

[LydiaMoon1]

My question is not about Sam, who is fictional; it's about why some viewers, who I presume are real, accord his past failings much more wieght than they do those of any other character

People generally base their assesment of anyone (fictional or real) based upon their accummulated knowledge of them, or as Ceeg and camussie explained earlier.

Sam is an idiot. Sam has been an idiot since season 4, and even before then he was sweet but dim. He thought it was romantic to leave a trail of food for a girl to eat off the floor. He needed a literal map to find the auditorium so he wouldn't get lost. He has the lowest SAT score ever recorded in McKinley High School history. And he's not some musical genius either. He can play the guitar and he can sing on key and that's about it as far as qualifications go. One moment of clarity in one scene in the finale doesn't eliminate years of idiocy.

I would say being able to be hypnotized by Sue with just a few swings of her watch isn't normal or intelligent.  Neither was his belief that Carmen was a witch, something he sincerely seemed to believe.  Neither was sniffing jockstraps.

 

Sam's 13 full episodes of successful rehabilitation

Your idea of success and mine obviously differ.

Edited March 27, 2015 by LydiaMoon1

[Snow Apple]

I know plenty of people who collected random degrees that mean nothing about their skills and experience, but are we really arguing about Sam's intelligence? He poured cereal on the floor as a romantic gesture. He's not the brain trust.

Well, that gesture was to Brittany and it worked because she's a unique sparkly quirky fairy child who still believes in Santa Claus. He has enough intelligence to know that won't work for, say, Mercedes or Rachel.

[caracas1914]

Maybe sniffing jockstraps made it easier for Sue to hypnotize Sam for a split second.  Opened up his senses.

 

I just don't understand why since they made pains to show Becky could have a "regular" boyfriend they didn't come up  with Sam/Becky.

Edited March 27, 2015 by caracas1914

[camussie]

What greater proof of his fitness is there than the fact Rachel sang with him?

 

 

Rachel singing with someone is hardly proof they will be fit as a teacher - see Brody or hell even Cassandra.  For that matter Quinn.

 

My question is not about Sam, who is fictional; it's about why some viewers, who I presume are real, accord his past failings much more wieght than they do those of any other character

 

 

If by past you mean his failing in season 6 - 8-9 months before he was given permanent position then yes I say that is a good judge of whether he is fit for the job especially since the only thing that changed is Will cut out sports programs at McKinney so Sam was out of work.  

 

Finally you still haven't answered what extraordinary talents we have seen in Sam that would lead the McKinley school board to say you don't need a degree to be the permanent coach/teach our premiere Glee club at our brand new arts magnate high school. It would have been one thing if throughout the years he had been the go to person to arrange songs or choreograph dances for ND but, as far as we know, he never was.

 

At least when Finn took over temporarily for a Glee club that was an extracurricular in a regular high school there was plenty of canon to point back to that he had experience arranging songs.  But even with that, if he wanted to make a career of it, he needed to go to school.  So why him and not Sam?  Sam is just so much more talented even though we have no canon that tells us why?

Edited March 27, 2015 by camussie

[Ceeg]

Rachel has dueted with almost everyone on this show. I guess that means they're all fully qualified to be public school teachers. I wonder what Sunshine is up to? Maybe she could coach the TroubleTones.

[caracas1914]

Santana would make a great teacher too.

[tom87]

Rachel sang with herself so all those naysayers about her teaching can go away too.

[Ceeg]

The Lima Public School System should just hire all the New Directions alumni, to teach all their classes. Even the academic ones, since apparently college degrees and teaching exams are meaningless. Quinn can teach Home Ec (she dueted with Rachel). Puck can teach Anger Management and Guitar 101 (he dueted with Rachel). Santana can teach self-defense and Spanish (she dueted with Rachel). Brittany can teach dance and math (Brittany dueted with Santana, so by the transitive property, she's also qualified).

 

I think I've figured out a way to continue this show for another 6 years.

Edited March 27, 2015 by Ceeg

[Myrna123]

I think I've figured out a way to continue this show for another 6 years.

Why limit stories by setting them in a school though?  They should all be doctors--but all different kinds of doctors so there can be tons of different stories--dentists, and surgeons and orthodontists and plastic surgeons and dermatologists.  But then they can switch up what kind of doctor they are too, depending upon the lyrics to songs and whatnot.

[Higgs]

Rachel and Jesse were always endgame.

"Always"? Even with Finn and "I'm home."? If so, tell me more.

(1) Rachel singing with someone is hardly proof they will be fit as a teacher...

(2) Finally you still haven't answered what extraordinary talents we have seen in Sam ...

(1) True, but I thought it made for a good joke. So sue me. (In any case, I said only "fitness", without specifying profession.)

(2) I have answered the question. The answer is none. What I did say/suggest is that he was as qualified overall as Will, Rachel, or Kurt because he was a better instrumentalist than any of them and his life experiences, compared to those of that relatively privileged trio, gave him insights into certain genres that could prove helpful with regard to the musicality of ND's performances. (cf. VA) I also said McKinley would have other faculty who could help with individual vocal technique and choreography. Team teaching is not uncommon. ("..., from each according to his ability.")

Intelligence and susceptibiliy to hypnotism may be positively correlated. http://davidgodot.com/8-myths-about-hypnosis/

If you don't sniff the jock straps, how will you know you've laundered them properly? (Guys, ask your mothers.) At least Sam's conscientious.

Are we having fun yet? How much longer until we get there?

Edited March 28, 2015 by Higgs

[camussie]

No you posted

 

The school board can override formal requirements at will, and this would be especially true for a magnet arts program. Just as no degree of any kind is necessary for a high school football coach (Google it), all an arts school need care about is the ability to teach the subject*, credentials be damned.

 

 

So again what talents has Sam demonstrated that the school board would make those concessions for him?  Since his life experiences don't include arranging songs or choreographing dances why would they allow him to be the director of their elite show choir just as they are getting McKinney arts magnate off the ground?   Sure his life experiences can help the kids learn why country is important but eventually he will need to actually put together performances for competitions (which are important to arts magnate schools).  

[AndySmith]

Rachel and Jessie were only ever endgame once Cory died. Had he lived...we would have probably seen a Rachel and Finn endgame.

 

Though honestly, even if Cory had lived...I still would have preferred a Rachel and Jessie endgame. Assuming Rachel had to have an endgame tied with a male character, that is.

Edited March 27, 2015 by AndySmith

[Higgs]

That's my head canon why she slept with Sam. It was "he's straight and I need to get my performing mojo back on."

Yes, there's that, but there's more:

1. Rachel needs continual stress relief from her "eat-or-be-eaten", "dog-eat-dog"

(

@2:05 ) profession.

2.Rachel needs applause to live.

3. Rachel requires prospective swains to pass her standardized aptitude tests. Quality counts for 80%, quantity 20%. There's no written essay, but there is an oral section.

4. Mistress Rachel conducts a rigorous fitness training regimen for gentlemen callers. She must be obeyed. There shall be no happy endings without permission. Failure is not an option.

There was a report, many years ago, that some kids at a Glee event carried a banner with pictures of Finn, Puck, and Jesse, each stenciled with "Property of Rachel Berry". They should have included Will.

Edited March 28, 2015 by Higgs

[tom87]

I still do not and refuse to buy that Rachel would come "home" to Finn.  

[Higgs]

I still do not and refuse to buy that Rachel would come "home" to Finn.

At any time during S4, what did you think would happen? What did you want to happen? Edited March 28, 2015 by Higgs

[AndySmith]

but there is an oral section

 

In that case, Trouty Mouth must have passed with flying colors.

 

Well, this made me see I Live in a different way.

Edited March 28, 2015 by AndySmith

[jaytee1812]

I watched I Lived, again, and I have some more observations, most from the shallow end of the pool.

Jacob Artist is the only man on this show who can wear red trousers, especially with a a red shirt, everyone else, especially Max Adler, no, just no. God bless the person who put Harry, Dijon, Groff, and Blake in tight white trousers, I wish they'd done same for Chris Colfer. Also same goes for whoever dressed the guy who plays the dick jock in the new newbies, that tight top did him lots of favours!

Naya, Dianna and Becca's dresses were lovely. Wasn't mad keen on Jenna's outfit but she rocked it and not to be too shallow her ass looked amazing. Loved Vanessa's. Wasn't mad keen on Amber's top but the leggings were gorgeous. Did Sammie offend wardrobe? Seriously she's been rocking little skirts and tops all season and then they drown her in a huge white skirt for this. I liked Unique's but it was a bit old looking for her.

I loved the twins matching outfits!

[AndySmith]

I thought Max looked hot. Then again, I do like cubs...

[caracas1914]

He's a hot bear.

 

Karofsky and Blaine, a perfect match.

[AndySmith]

Nah, even Karofsky deserved better than Blaine.

[shang yiet]

Too much Sue and her ridiculous story. I wanted to see her punished, down and out, not living it up as VP. I wish Brad had punched Sue in the face after she pushed him off the piano chair.

Too much Blaine as usual. I needed more Tina, Mike, Quinn, Puck, Artie. I've seen Mercedes sing in church before. Why should she get a solo and not Tina, Puck, Quinn, Artie?

Rachel winning her Tony left me cold. If she got that second chance after blowing off Funny Girl, then I expect Cassie to be one of the other Tony nominees. Why not?

Sam staying in Lima as the new music coach is just lazy writing. Let him go to college first and take a break from New Directions. He can always come back when he's 30.

Kurt and Blaine, seriously, it's not enough that they are married, we need to know that their happiness is now complete with their very own surrogate baby. It's the cherry on top. Meanwhile, what about Quinn and Puck five years on? Did they keep in touch with Beth? What are they up to? Mike, what's he doing? Did we even see him talk to Tina? It's like they're strangers.

What about Shelby? Surely, she would have been watching her daughter Rachel on TV?

The last number was a bit frantic. I could barely keep track of who was coming onto the stage. I prefer they slow down each entry so that each character can have some individual focus first before they all merge into a group.

 

I wonder if Cory had lived, what the finale would have been? I can't see Rachel chasing a Broadway career only to fly back to Finn in Lima, ready to give it all up. I can't see Finn in New York either. 

[phoenixrising]

You know, if anyone should've ended up with a baby in the end, it should've been Quinn. Except now she'd more mature, and in a place where wants a kid (with or without Puck). If not with Puck, then I think him ending with a kid with his theoretical new maturity could also be good, since he really did want to be a dad in season 1.

[natyxg]

I wonder if Cory had lived, what the finale would have been? I can't see Rachel chasing a Broadway career only to fly back to Finn in Lima, ready to give it all up. I can't see Finn in New York either.

 

According to Ryan Murphy:

 

 

The ending of Glee is something I have never shared with anyone, but I always knew it. I’ve always relied on it as a source of comfort, a North Star. At the end of season 6, Lea [Michele]’s Rachel was going to have become a big Broadway star, the role she was born to play. Finn was going to have become a teacher, settled down happily in Ohio, at peace with his choice and no longer feeling like a Lima loser. The very last line of dialogue was to be this: Rachel comes back to Ohio, fulfilled and yet not, and walks into Finn’s glee club. “What are you doing here?” he would ask. “I’m home,” she would reply. Fade out. The end.

 

http://www.ew.com/article/2013/12/23/ryan-murphy-cory-monteith

[Bill1978]

I still can't see how the original ending is technically a good way to finish a show that relied so heavily on song. Even with all the insanity that happened in the real finale, it at least had the sense to finish with a big group number. If Glee ended with a simple line of dialogue and a fade out (regardless of if it felt right storywise/character wise) I still would have been disappointed.

[AndySmith]

Yeah, the original ending seems...eh. A show like Glee needs to end on a group number. And whether you liked the number or not (personally, I did), one thing I did like about it was that just about everyone they could get was there for it (and only 2 no-shows is pretty impressive).

 

Guys, was the flashforward scene for the Tony Awards in 2020 or 2025?

Edited April 4, 2015 by AndySmith

[natyxg]

2020.

[AndySmith]

Hmmm. Some sources have it as 2025...which would make Rachel and Jesse's wins a bit more realistic is they're in their late 20s/early 30s, and maybe for Rachel to their surrogate as well. A bit ;)

Edited April 4, 2015 by AndySmith