S01.E09: The Reckoning

[Athena]

If you have seen the episode at Paleyfest, you are allowed to discuss it here. Spoilers for the episode below.

 

Synopsis:

 

Jamie and the Highlanders rescue Claire from Black Jack Randall.

Reminder: There is open air book talk here. If you are just watching the TV show and you don't want to stumble into a potential spoiler you should leave now. There is another episode topic for you. Book Talk assumes you have read all the books to date. Any information from unpublished books, such as preview chapters should be in spoiler tags.

[Shorty186]

So ... can we talk about the episode if we saw it at Paley Fest or no?

[Athena]

So ... can we talk about the episode if we saw it at Paley Fest or no?

 

Yep :)

[Shorty186]

Well, if no one else is going to start ... I really liked it, but watching a TV show with hundreds of other people is a strange experience. Mostly because I think the audience in general found a lot of things to be funny that I'm not sure the writers intended. I was pretty surprised that they played the strapping scene comedically since I remembered reading the actors talking about how they wanted to treat it respectfully and not take it lightly. So, I don't know if it was supposed to be as played for laughs as the audience thought. I'll to see if it comes off more serious when I re-watch by myself. However, I did appreciate that they didn't excuse Jamie's behavior by having Dougal be the one to make him punish Claire. To me it made sense that he'd have these beliefs in "justice" since that's how he was raised. Plus it made his promise to Claire more meaningful that he was willing to change for her.
 
I thought they really covered a lot in the episode - which they needed to barrel through the rest of the book - while also adding new things from Jamie's point of view. However, I really saw no point in the Laoghaire scene where she throws her boobs at him. I liked her ultimate humiliation, but I don't know why the writers thought it necessary to tempt Jamie. If it was to show that he doesn't want just ANY physical relationship, he wants Claire, I think that's been pretty obvious from the start. And if it was to show that any man would be tempted by the offer of sex, I think we know that too without having to explicitly see it. It just made me mad to see Jamie with someone who wasn't Claire.
 
Then again, maybe it was to set her up as a more devious character as evidenced by the episode's end, with Jamie being so sure it was her who left the ill-wish. But if the writers are setting her up to be more complicit and aware in her set-up of Claire, that would seem to change things when Claire learns Jamie married her. Surely she would be like, "How could you marry that bitch, she tried to kill me!" Right?
 
All in all, I thought it was a really strong episode and can't wait to see it again in three weeks. And then re-watch dozens and dozens of times more.
 
Anyone else?

Edited March 14, 2015 by Athena
Removed Spoiler tags

[CatMack]

I didn't personally get to see it, but I shamelessly read recaps on tumblr because man have I been dreading the strapping scene.  I agree it's really odd that they chose a 'comedic' bent to it.  It sounds really disrespectful and gross.  But I like your point that having an audience providing a laugh track might have altered the tone of the scene and made it come off more 'funny' than it was actually meant to be.  So I will try to reserve judgment until I see it.

 

But I am really, really relieved by the changes made to the aftermath.  I'll still reserve final judgement until I get to see it firsthand, but even if it's still problematic in some ways they've fixed a lot of the issues I had with the book, with Jamie's attitude being so disrespectful and dismissive.  Him experience actual self reflection and growth instead of just making the oath even though he didn't really see the problem with it because he wanted to get back in Claire's bed - that's a much needed change I am very grateful for (and will hopefully mean we don't have to sit through the awful "strapping disobedient women is totally fine and great and I don't regret doing it to you decades ago and I'm still turned on thinking about it" bullshit that popped up in book...I wanna say 5 or 6. 

 

I am very curious how they're going to handle Laoghaire going forward.  Having Jamie be so much more aware of her this early on would seem to have repercussions for storyline down the road, ones that are important enough they can't really just omit them easily.  

Edited March 14, 2015 by Athena
Removed Spoiler tags

[tcay]

I also read a recap (I'm the worst at spoilers) and I too wondered what the Laoghaire scene means for the overall story. Having her throw herself at him and having him have an inkling of who left the ill wish ("a lady") means he probably knows of her distaste for Claire. His obliviousness to all that is what sort of excuses him marrying her in Voyager. 

[lianau]

I also read a recap (I'm the worst at spoilers) and I too wondered what the Laoghaire scene means for the overall story. Having her throw herself at him and having him have an inkling of who left the ill wish ("a lady") means he probably knows of her distaste for Claire. His obliviousness to all that is what sort of excuses him marrying her in Voyager. 

Going from jealous teenager to attempted murder is still a  long road to travel . So unless Claire directly tells him later I don't really see a problem with that .

[Athena]

Hello. I removed some book spoiler tags because these Book Talk episode threads can contain all book spoilers. If you want absolutely no book talk, check the other episode thread please.

[tcay]

Going from jealous teenager to attempted murder is still a  long road to travel . So unless Claire directly tells him later I don't really see a problem with that .

It was always incredibly odd to me that she never told him what happened. But then I read Voyager and, well, plot.

[Shorty186]

Hmm, so I found a recap and they said the episode ended with Jamie saying the ill-wish was sent by "a lady." I guess I misheard because I thought he said "Laoghaire." Guess I must've been projecting what I already knew.

[lianau]

It was always incredibly odd to me that she never told him what happened. But then I read Voyager and, well, plot.

It's something I don't find odd at all . The witch trial was pretty traumatic alone , then came the decision at the stones, followed by a few weeks peace before Wentworth . I think Laoghaire's involvement just fell of Claire's radar.

[Petunia846]

Saturday morning and I just watched it on OnDemand! *happy dance*

 

I thought the strapping was done pretty well. It didn't play as funny to me, so maybe that was just the group dynamic of the viewing. I thought it was pretty brutal, especially the few blows that Claire got in as retaliation. I was unhappy that they left in Jamie's line about how he never said he wouldn't enjoy it, but then I felt like they made up for it in the aftermath. I am so appreciative that they did not include that long conversation where Jamie tells Claire about all the times he was strapped and she suddenly feels better about it. The way they played out the aftermath worked much better than the book, and by the time he was offering her his oath, I could tell he'd changed his mind about how much he'd enjoyed taking his belt to her.

 

I was surprised that they added in so much about the Jacobite stuff, but I guess they're trying to play up the political sides of things to make the show less "romancy" and maybe to set things up better for next season. It makes sense in the books that we didn't hear much about what was going on with the Jacobite cause because everything was from Claire's perspective and she didn't know as much, but that did mean there was a lot of catching up to do at the start of Dragonfly in Amber when the Jacobites suddenly became the main plot.

 

It was interesting that they gave Colum a line that basically insinuated that he was rooting for Jamie to succeed him. What was it he said? Something like, How could you marry the sassenach when you know that means you'll never lead the clan? Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the books we never get an inkling that Colum wants Jamie to replace him, right? I mean we obviously know that Dougal wants to be the next chief, but I don't think we get a sense of what Colum wants. I thought that was an interesting direction. Also interesting that they laid it out about Hamish.

 

Anyway, as with Claire's VOs, Jamie's made me wonder the whole time...who is he talking to?! I could just picture him wrapped up in an old plaid in front of a fire on the ridge one crisp autumn night talking to the grand kids. *sigh*

 

Overall, I liked it. I'll have to watch it again, obviously, and that won't be a terrible torture. So happy we're back!

[abbey]

I just watched it on Demand, and I also had the closed captioning on.  Closed captioning showed he said Laoghaire when asked by Claire who would have put the ill wish under their bed.  I too did not find the strapping scene comedic.  I had read on line that some at Paley fest found it comedic, and that bothered me.  I was happy to see it treated seriously.  I was surprised that Colum apparently was planning to make Jamie his successor?  Not sure why they thought that change was necessary but perhaps we will find out more in future episodes.

[Keeta]

I think my favorite part of this episode, oddly enough, might have been Claire and Jamie's fight after her rescue. The actors totally went for it, and it was almost shocking in its emotional intensity.

I loved how jam-packed this episode was, and I liked the choice to have this be the introduction to Jamie's point of view.

I thought they handled the spanking well. At the screening I was at, there was some laughing at certain points, I think largely in appreciation at Claire's spirit in fighting back and making Jamie pay for it. And I thought the whole aftermath was well done as well, with Claire refusing Jamie back to their bed until he realized on his own, maybe this isn't the best way to deal with issues in their marriage.

So glad this show is back!!

Edited April 4, 2015 by Keeta

[KateJones]

The fight after the rescue was absolutely incredible. I was actually wincing and gripping the couch pillows because it was so real. Bravo!!

Also, I can see why some people laughed at the strapping scene. After the intensity of the fight before, a little release was probably in order. Plus, the intercut scenes with the pub downstairs, were played slightly for comic relief.

Edited April 4, 2015 by KateJones

[Glaze Crazy]

I felt the strapping was pretty much as written in the book and I was relieved.. I thought, seeing it play out onscreen with Claire fighting back, the clan dicing and drinking downstairs and commenting on the noise upstairs made it slightly less intense, in a way. 

 

I'm glad they have pulled away from the story being completely from Claire's POV and brought in some of the Clan politics and contrasts between the Mackenzie.  In the book I never had any idea who Colum would have wanted as his successor so if TPTB want to play up that conflict between Dougal and Jamie then it's OK with me.  I know Jamie tells Claire at some point almost exactly what Colum said to him when they returned, that being married to a sassanach would keep him from becoming the next Mackenzie laird, if he chose to make a claim for it. I also never got the (book) impression that Jamie was privy to any inside clan business like they showed in Colum's study, so another win for TPTB in linking that to Jamie being in an insider's position to actually have made a claim for clan laird.  Plus it influenced Jamie's action in pledging his fealty to Claire later, making the two of them essentially bound together as a team.

 

I do wish they had left it more ambiguous as to who put the "ill wish" in their room and had not had Jamie name Laoghaire specifically.  I hope it doesn't become a stumbling block at some later point in the series, should the show make it that far.  That said, I liked that they showed Laoghaire as a little more determined to score Jamie for herself.  I also noticed that he only stuck to the fact that he was a married man for his reason for refusing her, not that he didn't necessarily want her, so she might still be harboring some hope there.

[rudystx01]

Could someone explain to me how you tie a kilt. Who knew you had to lay on the floor. The illustration went by so fast.

[Glaze Crazy]

Oooh!! Oooh!! I know, I know!! I watched someone many years ago backstage at the Agoura CA RenFaire do it. (it's also described in a couple of places in the books)  You lay your belt on the ground, you put your several yards length of plaid over it, pleat it up as needed, lay down and wrap the ends over your front, fasten your belt around your waist and stand up.  The pleats should be at the back and the front should be mostly smooth.  Adjust further as needed.

Edited April 4, 2015 by Glaze Crazy

[paramitch]

I thought it was really interesting to come back from the break to this episode with the fresh perspective in Jamie's POV, and how much that mirrored Claire's POV in the first episode ("Sassenach"), right down to the first words of the episode. I thought it was very well done.

 

I actually think this was not only a superb way to come back but to enrich Jamie as a character and to (to an extent) de-objectify him. I'm not a huge Jamie fan (I mean, I like him, I don't hate him or anything), so I appreciated that this genuinely helped to take him out of a character that until now has been -- albeit lovable -- far too stereotypical for me to take seriously. I'm aware that I'm in the minority on this, but the person I feel for in the story right now is Frank. I've read the book, and I'm aware that Frank is of course not the person who is gonna be Claire's end-all, be-all, soulmate, etc. 

 

But I do think the show has improved on the book by giving Frank a legitimate point in this triangle. The show -- far more than the book to me -- has taken Frank and his love for Claire seriously, and it has given us the portrait of a good man who openly said to his wife, "There is nothing you could do that would affect my love for you." Then "Both Sides Now" ripped my heart out and I felt so bad for Claire AND poor Frank.

 

So for me that's made it tough for poor Jamie. It's been hard for me to switch sides to Team Jamie. But this episode was honestly a really good start. It humanized him, it emphasized his flaws as well as his many good points, and I loved the fight between him and Claire (the precursor to the later spanking). It just felt very real and visceral.

 

As far as the spanking -- I thought it was well handled here. It was a difficult yet utterly believable situation for the time, if we're to take the setting and the time seriously -- which is why the scene has just never bothered me at all. As a woman, I love living in the modern world and am happy that women are justifiably treated as equals in at least some parts of the world (most of the time, at least, these days). I feel lucky for my lot in comparison to Claire.

 

But in this world in 1700s Scotland, I fully buy that a woman was viewed as subservient, as property, as a thing, a baby machine, a sex object, etc., and no doubt (and horrifically) as someone to be disciplined. So I never understood the uproar over the beating in the book -- or here in the episode -- because I fully buy that it is something that Jamie would do in this situation, especially as a young newly married man still finding himself.

 

So I felt the show handled it well, and it made me appropriately uncomfortable through my modern lens while also making me feel very thankful and lucky that those are no longer the times I live in. And I was really happy with the follow-up scene in which Claire confronted, made love with, and then pulled the dagger on Jamie -- and that they both committed that it would never happen again.

 

Last but not least, I love Menzies, and the way he plays Black Jack. I love the way he seems to keep Black Jack bottled up in a very specific way -- but then it's like the door will blow open and you get this view of how utterly insane he really is inside, and how unhinged. When he invites Jamie to join him in raping Claire, and he's just so damn delighted to do so -- I was both horrified and laughing out loud. He manages to bring to life the darkness in this guy in a really unexpected way (and I love the contrast even more so, to the downright boyish, sweet Frank).

Edited April 4, 2015 by paramitch

[rudystx01]

Oooh!! Oooh!! I know, I know!! I watched someone many years ago backstage at the Agoura CA RenFaire do it. (it's also described in a couple of places in the books)  You lay your belt on the ground, you put your several yards length of plaid over it, pleat it up as needed, lay down and wrap the ends over your front, fasten your belt around your waist and stand up.  The pleats should be at the back and the front should be mostly smooth.  Adjust further as needed.

 

What about the long part that goes through the broach thing on the shoulder? How do we get there?

[Glaze Crazy]

 

What about the long part that goes through the broach thing on the shoulder? How do we get there?

 

That part I'm not entirely sure of. It's either a separate sash, like Dougal wears or it's some arrangement of the longer bit of Jamie's kilt that you sometimes see hanging down his backside.  The belt is placed lower on the width of the length of plaid to make the lower part of the kilt from waist to knees, with a longer part of the same plaid left above the waist for covering/warmth in rain or cold, like we've seen Jamie do.

 

ETA: Watch during the wedding ep.  Jamie has a separate sash wrapped around his shoulders/across his arm.  The long bit of the kilt is still hanging down the back of the kilt.

Edited April 4, 2015 by Glaze Crazy

[WatchrTina]

 

It was interesting that they gave Colum a line that basically insinuated that he was rooting for Jamie to succeed him. What was it he said? Something like, How could you marry the sassenach when you know that means you'll never lead the clan? Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the books we never get an inkling that Colum wants Jamie to replace him, right? I mean we obviously know that Dougal wants to be the next chief, but I don't think we get a sense of what Colum wants. I thought that was an interesting direction. Also interesting that they laid it out about Hamish.

Yeah that startled me too.  It sheds new light on the look on Colum's face when Jamie stood up during the Gathering and failed to make his vow to Colum.  I think BookColum viewed Jamie as a threat to Hamish's succession but I think TVColum views Jamie as perhaps a better choice than Dougal. Maybe he's not yet committed to the idea of Jamie succeeding him (he probably doesn't like to think about ANYBODY succeeding him) but he wants to keep his options open. I like the change because it adds another layer of conflict between Colum and Dougal.  Colum is pissed about the fund-raising AND he's pissed that Dougal's maneuvered Jamie out of the line of succession. 

Edited April 8, 2015 by WatchrTina

[General Days]

How early did this show up on demand, for everyone/anyone? I didn't star watching until the hiatus. I was surprised when I went in, to set up my season pass, that it was already available on demand, hours before it airs on Starz. I didn't see it until 4 or 5:00pm, but I don't know how early it showed up.

In re the spanking scene, I thought it was well handled. I appreciated that Jamie pointed out that had any of the men so endangered the group, that man would be flogged or even killed. That helped me watch from a place where I could remember that corporal punishment was a husband/wife thing, but it was also a societal thing between male peers.

I loved the first argument between Jamie and Claire, after he got her to safety. I too, love the switch to Jamie's P.O.V. I was someone who was very worried after the Paley reports, and feel so much better, now that I've watched it, myself.

[Glaze Crazy]

I saw a tweet from Diana G about 1:30 am Pacific that it was available on StarzPlay. I checked OnDemand (DirectTV) and found it there. So that's when I watched it.  For reference.

[WatchrTina]

I'm weighing in to say that the scene between Laoghaire & Jamie at the river was a good addition.  Laoghaire has no one to blame but herself but that was some epic-level humiliation to be rejected in that way and it will make her subsequent plotting against Claire more believable.

 

I also have to say that I think the fight between Jamie and Claire following the rescue was better handled in the book.  Sam & Cait went for it full force but the writing didn't quite work for me.  Jamie's sudden sickened reaction to the rage he's feeling was . . . abrupt.  And I think they left out a key line -- the one where Jamie reminds Claire that Fort Williams was where he was flogged -- where he makes her understand what it took for him to go in there looking for her.

 

But I loved the changes in their argument back at Leoch -- particularly that the fight (and make-up sex) are due to Claire's still lingering resentment over the spanking and not over Claire's mistaken jealousy of Laoghaire.  Claire delivering the line about cutting out Jamie's heart and eating it for breakfast was much better when delivered while astride a naked Jamie with a dagger to his throat.

Edited April 5, 2015 by WatchrTina

[Megan]

I thought the jaunty music definitely added a comedic element to Claire's punishment.

[theschnauzers]

We had Jamie the action hero (and confirmation via Twitter that Sam did all of his own stunts), Jamie the peacemaker, Jamie the political sage, and Jamie the lover. That just about sums up the episode, for the most part.

Edited April 5, 2015 by theschnauzers

[absnow54]

I've always been critical of the spanking scene, but I think it played well, because Jamie seemed genuinely remorseful about it. The tone in the book always made his actions seem completely justified, like he was right and Claire was wrong and his way goes. Period. And I always felt that it went against Jamie's character, but the Jamie we saw in this episode seemed far more in character. He did his duty, but he's a progressive thinker, and he immediately realized that while his father beat him to make him learn, that wasn't going to work between him and Claire. I thought the vow of fealty was a brilliant compromise. I'm just really satisfied with how it went. 

[Dust Bunny]

Rewatching the replay right now, and it suggests that Jamie gets the idea to do the oath to Claire after seeing Colum reference it to Dougal in the 2nd meeting with them and Ned. That's pretty cool and seems more organic in Jamie's growing understanding of his relationship with Claire.

 

I really, really like the fallout from the beating took longer. The horse walking scene in the book always seemed too cheap for me. This was SO much better. It really does seem like this was a better foundation for their relationship.

[tcay]

I didn't like Jamie's voiceovers. The lines felt so cheesy and obvious. Claire's POV has been vital to the show, but I never expected it to be this jarring without her shepherding us through the scenes. 

The political machinations were interesting though and you're all right that we wouldn't have been privy to those had we stuck to Claire's POV. So I'm torn. I like having expanded story moments, but I actively missed Claire. 

 

And count me as someone who thought the beating was played for comedy. The soundtrack was very upbeat.

[Nidratime]

I loved the political machinations a great deal and that wasn't brought forth like this in the book. The book never established what Colum knew about what Dougal was doing and how he felt about it. It was left ambiguous. And, we never heard Colum explicitly express that he's angry that Jamie can't possibly become the Laird because he married an Englishwoman. This is all assumed by the reader. It's not spelled out and, therefore, we're not sure it's even in Colum's head. In fact, I thought his first hope would be Hamish taking over some day, but maybe the fact that Dougal sired the boy is beginning to rub.

[theschnauzers]

Tonight we had a full on "Fraser look" from Sam with the facial expressions and straight eyebrows. I realized it as soon as it was on the screen. If there was any question that Sam is Jamie, for me that settles it. Spot on!

[WatchrTina]

 

Tonight we had a full on "Fraser look" from Sam

Ooooh, do you mean that clenched jaw, barely moving his lips face from the first fight when he tells Claire "You ARE my wife, whether you like it or not."  Because that moment just gave me chills.  #SexyAnger

[bluebonnet]

I am really surprised at how well the strapping and aftermath play out here.  I didn't think the show would be able to pull it off but the adaptation was nearly perfect.  I even liked that Jamie was the POV voiceover since he's the 'outlander' here with regards to marriage.  I don't want it to continue with him being the voiceover, at least not now, but it worked. 

 

It's amazing when every scene, the leads look like they are going full throttle.  I believe every line they speak, every action they make.  That argument was awesome, I felt tense the entire time as it felt so real.  I'm not quite sure how I feel about the additions with Calum and Dougal stuff.  I guess in the long run it works better to sort of spell this relationship out, but mostly I just wanted more time with other characters.  Always more Murtagh, more Mrs. Fitzgibbons, more Geillis, more Mr. and Mrs. Frasier.  

[insubordination]

I didn't miss Claire's narration because Jamie badly needed some character development so that he can finally become a lead character.  It was interesting to see him struggle in the role of husband. Lots of intense scenes and  complex politics (both sexual and other).  It did seem a bit harlequin/mills & boon in places, but the giggly female lurking inside of me will have to admit to relishing those moments. There is so much chemistry between the two. I will have to watch the episode again to make a more sensible analysis than this one.

 

In retrospect, it was a good episode to show after a long hiatus. Claire certainly suffered a lot in a short period of time (and let's not forget she missed her chance to go back to Frank and instead was abducted, nearly raped - again - and then spanked by the only person who's ostensibly on her side).  Even after a long break, the spanking really was too much to bear.  I'm sure Jamie thought he was being just, but he treated her like a naughty child at times.  I didn't like the lighthearted fiddle music. I found it interesting that he enjoyed doling out punishment against her will.  There must be some psychology behind that, and I guess that theme is going to come up again this season.

 

Of course, Claire be can childish at times too, but I always forgive her because of the precarious situation she's found herself in. Maybe I just naturally side with her because she's female.

 

I also didn't like Claire's breasts exposed for such a long scene with Black Jack. It reminded me too much of Jenny, so I guess it was deliberate and added to Jamie's fear, but I don't know about that choice. I guess being half naked made her seem even more vulnerable.

 

Claire's words and actions throughout the episode resonated with Jamie, and learning took place. His beliefs about what a husband should be are not going to work for them. It was good that he realized it. I'm glad she was so strong in the episode, but still not too weak to forgive him and admit she wanted him again. Hearing clear consent and the 'eat your heart for breakfast' line was very satisfying. Jamie was also both strong and weak. It was a nice balance.  The sex was really interesting too. Who was mastering whom?

 

My favourite scene of the episode was when he was watching her in her nightdress while she was getting ready for bed and he was clearly becoming aroused  Then he started to take off his clothes.

 

Her: What are you doing?

Him: I thought....

Her: Think again!

Him: *mutters in Gaelic to protest being couched*

 

Collum/Dougal scenes were suitably intense. Someone commented a while ago that Collum being able to stand up, let alone walk, seems to defy the laws of physics. I would have to agree. How can those ankles and feet carry that weight? It is a real distraction for me, as is the bird.  I love the two actors they cast as brothers though. So physically at odds and it bleeds into all other areas as well.

 

Well I'm sure I will watch this episode a few more times before next week.

 

Welcome back show!

Edited April 5, 2015 by insubordination

[peacefrog]

I haven't had time to read the responses, will do tomorrow.  I wanted to get my first impressions down since they usually change.

 

Overall I thought it a bit uneven. I loved the scene by the river, Jacobite stuff and yes, the Leogharie scenes. Did not mind first voiceover but found the next repetitive. I liked seeing what Jamie was up to.  Loved the Fort William escape.

 

I still have a problem with the spanking. I liked how they showed the men ignoring her. The actual scene and the way they handled it was better than the book but it made me cringe. I could not even tell if it was acted well or not. 

 

I'm gonna have to watch a few more times as always. Looking forward to reading this tomorrow or is that later today?

[vesperholly]

Hmm, so I found a recap and they said the episode ended with Jamie saying the ill-wish was sent by "a lady." I guess I misheard because I thought he said "Laoghaire." Guess I must've been projecting what I already knew.

I think it definitely was Laoghaire. With the Scottish accent, it sounds more like "leery", with a bit of a catch on the R.

[thefreeair]

I just can't with the spanking. I thought I could. I prepared for it, read the scene in the book, tried to put it in its historical context and be more forgiving than I otherwise would be but seeing it actually play out onscreen was too much for me. I get that through a modern lens these things come across far worse, but if it's wrong now, it was wrong then and historically accurate or no, I can't walk Jamie back to a character I root for after seeing him do that and enjoy it.

 

It really sucks, because I've been able to overcome my issues with all the rape to enjoy the show, but I think this was my line. I'm not asked to root for the rapists, but I am supposed to sympathize with the wife beater and I just can't. I want to, but I can't. Damn.

[nodorothyparker]

My first impression of this episode was that they were doing a greatest hits of trying to cover several chapters and problematic scenes at once while adding a hefty dose of needed testosterone that viewers like my husband felt the first half of the season was somewhat lacking. Upon rewatch and further reflection though, I really began to appreciate how the episode continued a lot of what I liked so much about The Wedding in fleshing out Jamie as a lead (which he's sorely needed) and playing up a lot of subplots that either happened off page or were never more than implied to tell a much fuller story.  I've enjoyed the show McKenzies a lot more than the book McKenzies, so more McKenzies is good for me.

 

Both leads really went for it with everything they had and it paid off.  The post Fort William fight felt real in a way that nearly sucked all the air of the room, with the only thing lacking for me was Jamie's book line about having been tied to the post in the fort yard like an animal but going in anyway because that line is what sold me on the kind of steel Jamie Fraser was made of.  The strapping was adapted about as well as anyone possibly could have.  I'm not required to love it.  It just needs to be believable and make sense for the characters as they're presented.  The show did a decent job of giving it some context both with Jamie's own explanation and running commentary from the peanut gallery below, and in mirroring Jamie's dealings with Colum to his evolution in thought from viewing marriage as a master-subservient thing (which let's face it, at this point in history his legal status to Claire was uncomfortably close to outright ownership) to a true partnership. 

Edited April 5, 2015 by nodorothyparker

[Kiwi]

I was a little bit underwhelmed with this episode and I am not sure why. It could be after the long wait my expectations were too high or it could be that in the intervening months I read all the books and so my mind and heart is still on Fraser Ridge welcoming Bree and Roger back and thinking of Claire and Jamie as older people. Whatever it was, I didn't enjoy this as much as I wanted to. 

 

.

I still have a problem with the spanking. I liked how they showed the men ignoring her. The actual scene and the way they handled it was better than the book but it made me cringe. I could not even tell if it was acted well or not. 

 

 Same here. I think I disliked it more on screen than in the book. Seeing something is harder to ignore than it is reading it. Even though I know in the context of the time it was accepted, I find it hard to accept that someone who claims to love another can raise a hand to them. At some point your conscience steps in and tells you this is wrong, beating someone you love is not right, no matter what time you live in.  Jamie is meant to be an honourable man yet he enjoyed it!  As the episode went on, I feel they did a nice job showing he regretted it, which I appreciate, but no matter how I try to look at it, Jamie beating Claire like that does not stack up against the Jamie who stepped in to save Leoghaire from a beating.

 

I do like that they showed Jamie not telling Leoghaire straight up he isn't interested in her. Its as if he is sparing her feelings, but it will come back to bite him in the ass further down the line. If we get to the later books this will play nicely to the scene where they confront each other back in Scotland and lay everything on the table. Not sure how they will play out that Jamie knew it was her who left the ill wish though, as far as I can remember he does not find out about that?

 

The fight scene was pretty great. Probably my favourite from the episode, so intense and well acted. I love a good fight and they did not disappoint.

 

[Pestilentia]

Could someone explain to me how you tie a kilt. Who knew you had to lay on the floor. The illustration went by so fast.

Youtube has several vids detailing the mechanisms of putting on a great kilt and how the position of the belt determines the length of sash.

Here is one- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eA-um_4gulI

 

The strapping scene did not bother me for the same reason it didn't bother me in the book- historical context. You either have the ability to understand it or you don't but it seems this keeps being discussed as if physical punishment hasn't been a staple of civilization since forever.

It did take place, it is represented as having taken place and objecting to its portrayal is no different than being upset with Roots for depicting slavery.

Moving on.

 

I continue to believe that Sam is uncomfortable with the sex scenes. As the episode opened I noticed that his acting has improved quite a bit but as soon as they were sexing it up he reverted to face acting again. Someone needs to loosen him up pre-filming... I would be happy to volunteer.

 

I also loved the inclusion of the political bickering within the MacKenzie Clan. McTavish and Lewis are two of the stronger actors in this show and using them fully only enhances my viewing experience. I also loved that Jamie stepped up and counseled Colum on the Jacobite gold- it made Jamie more of an adult family member with viable opinions than that annoying nephew they previously kept out in the barn.

[CatMack]

The strapping scene did not bother me for the same reason it didn't bother me in the book- historical context. You either have the ability to understand it or you don't but it seems this keeps being discussed as if physical punishment hasn't been a staple of civilization since forever.

It did take place, it is represented as having taken place and objecting to its portrayal is no different than being upset with Roots for depicting slavery.

Moving on.

 

I think using "historical accuracy" as a blanket statement to excuse any and every bad thing regardless of what location or time period is being discuss, as if all time periods and locations in "history" had the same rules and social norms, is disingenuous.  People who know Scottish history a lot better than Diana Gabaldon, who has admitted that she knew jack shit about the setting and time period she chose to write about when she first started, have strongly disagreed with the idea that it was normal for this time period in Scotland.  Scotland was going through a period of extreme education and enlightenment.  The idea that highly educated Jamie would just naturally beat his wife is actually extremely debatable.  It wasn't an inevitability, it was a choice, and it was a choice that we get to criticize.  

 

There's a difference between portraying something problematic and brushing it off as no big deal.  Since you're the one who brought up Roots - I've never had anyone tell me I shouldn't be upset about slavery because it's no big deal.  I've never had anyone try to tell me that because slavery was normal we can't criticize the slave owners of the time because they were just doing what they were taught.  I've never watched a show or movie depict a slave being beaten to wacky fiddle music and then expect me to sympathize with the beater as a romantic hero 5 minutes later.  

 

In some ways I think the show improved on Diana's writing - at least on the show Jamie seemed to actually feel remorse, instead of just giving in so Claire would sleep with him again while never seeing a problem with it and in fact still teasing her about it even when it was obviously upsetting to her.  But honestly I hated how they did the scene itself.  Total misfire.  Wife beating as wacky hijinks!  What a great way to try to be "respectful".  I don't buy that it wasn't that bad, he didn't really hit her that hard or do damage, or any other mollifying argument like that.  I'm in the BDSM kink scene.  I've spoken with women who've been spanked without their consent.  It's psychologically damaging.  What Jamie did was abusive, whether he meant it to be justice or not, because it was damaging to Claire's physical, mental, and emotional wellbeing.  That's what abuse is.  Abuse doesn't magically stop being abuse if you invoke the phrase "historical accuracy".  So playing it for laughs?  Was an absolutely terrible decision.

 

Of course, I've managed to get through the entire series, and enjoy them for the most part, despite Diana's crap handling of all things involving sex and race, so I'll do for the show what I do for the books - ignore the shitty things to focus on the positive.  

 

Unfortunately, I didn't find much positive about this episode.  

 

I don't mind Jamie being tempted by Laoghaire, except that I'm not sure how this will effect the plotline in book 3.  It has lasting repercussions and I don't think they can simply cut out their eventual wedding, so hopefully they will factor this new dynamic into Jamie's reasons for saying yes to marrying her.  If they try to play it exactly as it played out in the book after making Jamie much more aware of her bad intentions early on, it's not really going to work for me.  I do appreciate delving more into Laoghaire though.  I've never hated her as much as most book readers do.  She's really just a child at this point in the series, and while that doesn't make what she does OK in any way, I can recognize that she's making decisions like most teenagers do - impulsively and without full understanding of long term consequences.  Having Claire "help" her right before going off to marry Jamie, having Jamie seemingly blame the whole thing on Dougal instead of admitting he has feelings for Claire, it spells out Laoghaire's motivations just a little more clearly.  She's a teenager in love and thinks she and Jamie are starcrossed lovers separated by other people.  She is an idiot, but a young one, and I can forgive that in an actual literal teenager (eventually, several years down the line, when the angry mob isn't trying to kill Claire any more).  

 

As for the bulk of the episode plot, the Mackenzie family politic drama - I feel like I should have cared, but I just really couldn't.  All the actors involved are great, but I was bored.  And I like the political aspects of later books, so it's not politics itself that bothers me.  Maybe it's just because I resented Claire being shuffled off screen for so long.  Maybe it's because I know none of these characters but Jamie survive next season and I don't believe there will be any lasting consequences of any kind resulting from this added drama.  

 

Ultimately, I thought the switch to Jamie's POV was overhyped and underwhelming.  His narration just came off cheesy most of the time (of course, to be fair, so does Claire's at times, but I'm not also bored by her storylines).  The books branch off into other POVs quite often later in the series, and I wonder if they'll keep the narration plot device and switch characters like this episode, or if it'll just fade away.  Hopefully if we do get more Jamie POV in the future it won't be so badly written.  

 

Maybe the long hiatus just built up my expectations too much.  I just really didn't care for this episode.  But one bad episode does not ruin a show for me, and the upcoming section of plot, with the trial and the reveal and Lallybroch, are among my favorites of the first book, so hopefully they'll be back on top next week.

 

ETA: Oh, and one more thing about how the show chose to adapt Claire's attempted escape and all the fallout - in the book Claire is miles from the stones and doesn't entirely know where they are or how to get there and has no supplies of any kind.  She runs because she's alone for the first time and she can.  And I can understand that, but when she ends up apologizing for wandering off...well, I still think it's way more than Jamie deserves but I can kind of, if I don't think about it too hard, understand why she feels she should.  It was impulsive and not thought out well.  But in the show?  She literally sees the stones.  She gets within a literal hair's breadth of touching them.  If she'd stared at them for half a second less, started running towards them a half second sooner, she could have touched them and gone home.  So it doesn't work as well to play it off as a mistake Claire made when she was actually really effing close to rescuing herself and it was pure plot contrivance that it didn't work.

Edited April 5, 2015 by CatMack

[absnow54]

And, of course, it's still Claire's fault that the red coats found her, when Jamie left her in a thin forest 100 yards away from where British troops were leisurely passing through. I appreciate exploring Jamie's POV, but Claire's was so incredibly lacking after their argument. Jamie had to watch Claire almost get raped twice in 24 hours. The horror! You know who didn't seem to have an opinion on it at all? The woman who was almost raped twice in 24 hours. It was sort of jarring that Claire's attitude was "Wow, what a fun adventure! Glad that's over!" The writing was very sympathetic to Jamie to justify the spanking, and Claire's perspective completely disappeared to support it as well.

[WatchrTina]

 

the only thing lacking for me was Jamie's book line about having been tied to the post in the fort yard like an animal but going in anyway

Yes!  This!.  I knew there was a line I missed and that was the one!

 

I very much enjoyed this episode and offer congratulations to all involved -- writers, actors, director -- all of them.  I want that out there because for me, the whole is bigger (and better) than the sum of the parts. 

 

Now about those parts -- because I'm a fan and because I've spent so much time talking about this show and reading the behind-the-scenes info and interviews I cannot help but know that the spanking scene is controversial AND was used as one of the audition scenes.  It's said that it's what got Sam the role.  I'm going to have to say that now I understand.  I think he nailed it.  It's such a fine line he has to walk and I think he did it successfully.  Some people are going to hate that scene no matter what but I think Sam was very successful in portraying a man who thinks that spanking his wife is what is right, fair, just and what is expected -- but who has never done it before and is uncertain in this role.  Jamie, as written, as played by Sam, truly believes that Claire is expecting the spanking.  I think that's key.  He doesn't want to do it but will, out of duty (and to ensure that the clansmen will continue to offer Claire their protection) and then he is just flabbergasted and frustrated that she's making it so difficult.  We, the viewers, understand where Claire is coming from but Jamie doesn't.  That clash of cultures is a key aspect of this time-traveling story.  I think they got it perfect in that scene.  

 

 

I thought the jaunty music definitely added a comedic element to Claire's punishment.

This is so true.  The music is a bit of a cheat in that it telegraphs to the audience what we're supposed to be feeling.  It worked for me because the music was in sync with my natural reaction to the scene but I can well imagine some other viewers who reacted more negatively not liking that music at all.

 

BTW can I just say that the fight choreography was great?  I don't recall Claire kicking Jamie in the face in the books but I cheered when she clocked him a good one.

 

 

I continue to believe that Sam is uncomfortable with the sex scenes. As the episode opened I noticed that his acting has improved quite a bit but as soon as they were sexing it up he reverted to face acting again. Someone needs to loosen him up pre-filming... I would be happy to volunteer.

 

Okay that cracked me up because I envisioned Pestilentia as Katniss Everdeen crying "I volunteer!"  It also reminded me that this episode was filmed out of order -- right after episode 4, The Gathering, in order to take advantage of the Leoch (Castle Doune) location. So the make-up sex scene is actually the first sex scene that Sam and Cait had to film together.  Perhaps that is informing what you are reacting to, though I have to admit I don't know what you mean by "face acting."  I'll confess to being a bit embarrassed by the shots in The Wedding episode that were focused on Jamie's facial reactions to his first blow job (some moments in life should simply not be available for public viewing) but I didn't have any of those cringing, this-is-too-intimate-I-feel-awkward moments in this episode.  I thought the sexual choreography was pretty great.  Loved the tearing-off-their clothes moment.  I loved that enough clothes were left to give the actors something to work with to preserve their modesty and not let the scene topple over into porn.  I thought justice was served when Jamie rolls over and we get a shot of his bare arse (which is only fair after seeing so much topless Claire in this episode.)  I don't recall ever have a negative reaction to what Sam was doing with his face but I'll confess, that may not have been where my eyes were (dear god that man's arms and chest are spectacular!)  What, specifically were you reacting to?

Edited April 8, 2015 by WatchrTina

[peacefrog]

So was this the Leoch sex that is meant to be the questionable one in the book? If so I think it was an improvement. 

 

I think a lot of why I'm not initially feeling this episode as a whole is that they are trying to shoehorn as many "memorable" lines from the book in as possible. It ends up feeling clunky. I thought the scenes in Jamie's POV where written better.Even the scene by the river with Claire, which I loved, had some weird lines that felt squished in. Sam and Cait sold it. 

 

I'm not worried about storyline implications in later books with Leoghaire.  It's time to not stick so closely to the books.  It's doing a disservice to the show.  

[absnow54]

So was this the Leoch sex that is meant to be the questionable one in the book? If so I think it was an improvement.

I'm so glad they dropped the dubious consent scene. It really had no place in the episode, and in the book, just continued to drive home the idea that Jamie was a misogynistic jackass who didn't care about Claire's opinion now that she's his property (I HATED Jamie so much between the rescue and him presenting Claire with the ring. He was like pod!Jamie to me. This character I didn't recognize who stole Jamie's identity then thankfully disappeared a few chapters later.) I liked their makeup scene much better in the show, because it showed that the two could still like it a little rough while keeping full consent between both partners.

[CatMack]

Yeah, the make up scene was a redeeming feature of the episode.  I liked that Claire's threat actually seemed to have some tooth.  She had him vulnerable and in that moment could have actually hurt him if that's what she'd been wanting to do, so it actually made her threat seem valid.  She doesn't need to be a helpless damsel even if that's what everyone around her sees her as, so it was nice to see her gain the, uh, upper hand, so to speak.  I also liked placing the threat after his oath rather than before.  In the book it kind of felt like his oath magically fixed everything and Claire never really brings it up again (until later books again).  By putting the threat after the oath it reads more like Claire is willing to give him another chance but she's still pissed and hasn't completely forgiven him and she's not gonna just passively assume he'll keep his promise without her asserting herself.  I just wish that hadn't been her only moment of getting to express herself with regards to the strapping.  Probably the worst part of using this ep for Jamie's POV is that Claire became a largely silent player in a story about her own assault.   

Edited April 5, 2015 by CatMack

[nodorothyparker]

I do like that they showed Jamie not telling Leoghaire straight up he isn't interested in her. Its as if he is sparing her feelings, but it will come back to bite him in the ass further down the line. If we get to the later books this will play nicely to the scene where they confront each other back in Scotland and lay everything on the table. Not sure how they will play out that Jamie knew it was her who left the ill wish though, as far as I can remember he does not find out about that?

 

In the book, Jamie recognizes it as an ill wish but IIRC he doesn't say much more about it and chucks it out the window.

 

The scene by the river initially threw me but it made sense when I considered it in light of what comes later in Echo where Jamie doesn't even remember that he took Laoghaire's punishment for her and comments how he never cared enough to ask about her feelings at all or whether there was anything to the allegations that led to her punishment.  (There were, so Laoghaire's claim that unlike Claire she'd never lain with anyone is a show change.)  I like the observation in the nonbook reader thread about how this was his Ashley Wilkes moment because like Ashley, Jamie seems more concerned with being kind and honorable than being truthful, which only allows the delusion of star-crossed lovers to fester.  By having Jamie recognize her jealousy now, I do feel like the show has made it harder for itself to believably convince viewers that he didn't have any inkling of her role in the coming witch trial or that that knowledge wouldn't have any bearing on his choices in Voyager.

[Helena Dax]

I think my favorite part of this episode, oddly enough, might have been Claire and Jamie's fight after her rescue. The actors totally went for it, and it was almost shocking in its emotional intensity.

I loved how jam-packed this episode was, and I liked the choice to have this be the introduction to Jamie's point of view.

I thought they handled the spanking well. At the screening I was at, there was some laughing at certain points, I think largely in appreciation at Claire's spirit in fighting back and making Jamie pay for it. And I thought the whole aftermath was well done as well, with Claire refusing Jamie back to their bed until he realized on his own, maybe this isn't the best way to deal with issues in their marriage.

So glad this show is back!!

 

I laughed when she kicked his nose. 

 

The spanking scene never bothered me. When I read the book, I could understand why he was doing it. To me, it wasn't different from Ned Stark executing that fugitive in the first episode of GoT. I don't think it was right,  but he did and he would have applied the same law to himself, as Jamie should've done (and he does, later), iirc. And I think they handled it well in the show. Claire was rightfully pissed XD His plea was touching, I would have forgiven him too. And I loved Claire's threat.

 

It's been a while since I read the books, so I don't remember much about Laoghaire. 

 

Jamie's voiceover was a bit annoying but I think this episode needed his point of view, it made easier to understand him in the spanking scene.

 

ETA: I forgot, I really like the actor who plays Jack Randall. Randall  is more than evil, he's completely sick. He wasn't really taunting Jamie when he asked him to join them; he was hoping Jamie would agree. 

 

Also, I loved when Jamie asked her the meaning of some of her insults XD I always enjoyed those moments in the books.

Edited April 5, 2015 by Helena Dax

[WatchrTina]

Psssst Helena Dax  What does "XD" mean?